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Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming in you shirtless, severely

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Speaker 1: bugg bitten in my case underwear listening podcast. You can't

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Speaker 1: predict anything, Okay, um uh, the machine on is now, Thomas.

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Speaker 1: I've been looking at your name. I've been looking at

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Speaker 1: your name and don't don't tell me how long? Well

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Speaker 1: my entire life. I've been looking at your name of

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Speaker 1: magazine you were very personal, precocious, how like? How how

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Speaker 1: many it feels like my entire life? How many? How

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Speaker 1: many magazine articles have you written? Thousands and now now thousands,

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Speaker 1: now hundreds? Maybe you know I've written, um, you know

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Speaker 1: the last few years. I've probably written more television shows.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a very fast writer. I'm a half fast writer.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever hear that quote from I think it

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Speaker 1: was our w Apple had that quote that I can

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Speaker 1: write faster than anyone who can write better than me,

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Speaker 1: and I can write better than anyone who can write faster. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've I've I don't know. I mean I probably am

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Speaker 1: good for twenty articles a year, feature articles a year.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean writing television shows? I write? I

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Speaker 1: write for Right, for Trev Goudy, for um Sasquatch Mountain Man,

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Speaker 1: and His Monster Fish show. Right, what I write this

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Speaker 1: like enter animal enter, No, it's like it's like, and

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Speaker 1: now as the deer comes towards Jim, Oh, you write

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Speaker 1: the narration the voice over, so you're coming in after

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Speaker 1: the cut's been put together. And I have one of

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Speaker 1: those charming little golden mices in my house too, that

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Speaker 1: mean the golden moose. Oh like an award. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: like you got on yourself over here? Yea? And for

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Speaker 1: what for narration? For writing for his Fish and show.

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Speaker 1: They decided that they will make they'll make the show

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Speaker 1: and then they'll send it to you and you'll be like,

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Speaker 1: and they'll be some scratch video and you're going and redo.

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Speaker 1: You'll write like, what's gonna be the actual narration? Did

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Speaker 1: you either read on it? No? No, no, no, they've

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Speaker 1: got they've got they have a professional talent for that. No,

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Speaker 1: I I get well scratch vo yeah, well no, not necessarily.

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Speaker 1: Now it could be like right here, yeah, that's it.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's um um, you know, give us give

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Speaker 1: us fifteen seconds here about well whatever, you you know,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing it? Okay, let let's let's let's

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Speaker 1: aside from the fact that it's easy money, which I

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Speaker 1: don't want anybody to know. Um, well, there's gonna be

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Speaker 1: two or three now, you know. Well, um, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a different muscle, it's a different it's a different deal,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, some are better than others. I mean,

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Speaker 1: some are better too to work on the others not

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Speaker 1: not not the shows per se, but just individual episodes.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can I I can tell when they're scrambling.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you guys understand what that's like. You know,

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Speaker 1: you's got a certain smell to it. Yeah, what is it? Uh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for Dame talks about smells like stinky feet. So you know,

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Speaker 1: so you grew up reading Heavingway because you talk a

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Speaker 1: lot about Heavingway in your book. Yeah, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it's and it's Um, I think that was more

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Speaker 1: like I had a high school teacher who was like

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Speaker 1: just Hemingway guy in the sixties, and I started reading it. Um,

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Speaker 1: But I also like had I mean, my influences are

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Speaker 1: also personal because you don't write. Here's the thing. You

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Speaker 1: don't write like an outdoor writer. What does that mean? Well,

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Speaker 1: you write like a writer. Well, okay, there's outdoor writers

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Speaker 1: right now. There's some aspects of outdoor writing in your

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Speaker 1: writing that a writer would never think to do, right

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Speaker 1: courtesies where you'd be like, instead of I lifted Old Bessie,

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Speaker 1: you might be like I lifted X caliber Magan model firearm.

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Speaker 1: Dawn was a Primrose promises, which is a outdoor writer

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Speaker 1: thing to do that a writer wouldn't do unless like

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Speaker 1: kar Ck McCarthy would do it. But it wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: the same, It just would be different. Well, no, I

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Speaker 1: should say, because Karl McCarthy and No Country for Old

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Speaker 1: Men doesn't even say like someone had a nine millimeter

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Speaker 1: parabellum or whatever. Right, So yeah, so some writer writers

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Speaker 1: do clarify calibers and grain bullets and whatnot, but generally

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Speaker 1: you don't write like you don't write like an outdoor

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Speaker 1: writer because there's people here's here's why I'm putting it.

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Speaker 1: There's people that were gonna be writers. I was gonna

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Speaker 1: be a writer. Okay, they're gonna be writers Like I

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Speaker 1: gotta be a writer. I don't know what exactly gonna

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Speaker 1: write about that will come out in time, but this

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Speaker 1: is what I'm doing. And then you've got people who were, uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do something in the outdoor industry, not sure

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Speaker 1: what it is. It'll emerge over time. And those two

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Speaker 1: people have very different world views when they each wind

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Speaker 1: up being an outdoor writer and and and I guess

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Speaker 1: in my case, I would there was a mesh of

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Speaker 1: the two of an intersection um where I was influenced

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Speaker 1: as a young child in the hunting, which was unusual

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Speaker 1: because I grew up in like l a because you're

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Speaker 1: old man didn't hunt. But the guy I learned from

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Speaker 1: was his friend and I talked about in the book.

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Speaker 1: I mean, why why am I? Why am I writing

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Speaker 1: about Africa? You know at this late date, UM would

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Speaker 1: be a late date. It is a late date. I

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Speaker 1: mean you know that in your life. No, I think,

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Speaker 1: I think, I think, I think. I think that the

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Speaker 1: whole for the parameters around African writing have changed a lot.

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Speaker 1: You know, there was a time when it was, as

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Speaker 1: I think, I say somewhere in the book, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the greatest adventure money could buy. Okay, let let let's

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Speaker 1: pause from it. Pause because you've recently published the book

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Speaker 1: August in Africa. So just I just want people to

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Speaker 1: be aware, like like so in this book just came

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Speaker 1: out or not within a year, so or what Yeah,

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Speaker 1: within six months. Yeah, and it's and so uh so.

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Speaker 1: But the some of these pieces you wrote long ago,

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Speaker 1: they're forty years old. Some of them I started to

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Speaker 1: collect it. So you're saying, like after writing has changed

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Speaker 1: between when you began, Africa has changed from when I

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Speaker 1: began to when you're now putting this out in book.

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Speaker 1: African Hunting has changed. Um because of Cecil the Lion. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I I think Cecil is the

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Speaker 1: least of the worries. Um, I don't, I don't. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that there's any way of putting that particular

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Speaker 1: genie back in the bottle. That's that's been going on

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Speaker 1: since Born Free, you know, you know, back in the

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Speaker 1: six it's been going on for a Can we hold up,

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Speaker 1: we hold off on this for a second. Um, So

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Speaker 1: you're old man and hunt. You were born in l A.

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Speaker 1: He had a buddy that hunted was and went to

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Speaker 1: Africa in the fifties on on on very little money.

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Speaker 1: Was your dad a writer? No, my dad was a

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Speaker 1: machinist and actually he and his brother owned a company.

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Speaker 1: So who was the first writer you knew? You mean, like,

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Speaker 1: what made you aware that there's a thing called writers,

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Speaker 1: and that you could be one. You know, it was

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Speaker 1: that again. These are these are these are wonderfully probing questions. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I mean, that's a good question.

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Speaker 1: I had a certain facility for words, you know, which

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Speaker 1: which is as I get older, is is fleeting away.

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Speaker 1: But really, thank you? Um oh no, I just I

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Speaker 1: know what you're saying, know what you're saying, because I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's happened to me and then it comes

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Speaker 1: back again. Though, but in some ways it's it's the

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's it's like it's like I

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Speaker 1: I my fastball is not there anymore, but I'm learning.

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Speaker 1: I've got a lot more, uh you know, sliders and

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Speaker 1: and and fork balls and stuff I can. My technique

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Speaker 1: has gotten better, I think, so I like to think.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, those are terms for tricky baseball pitches. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: un educated enough in sports like that. When someone says

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Speaker 1: like fastball, I'm like, I'm like trap tracking track. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well maybe all our listeners, you know, are huge baseball fans.

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Speaker 1: Right well. Anyway, um, so, I mean, if if if

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be a totally autobiographical it was the nuns.

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Speaker 1: It was the nuns and grammar school that they singled

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Speaker 1: me out and they said you can write, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: and that was like and like I think, like anything else,

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Speaker 1: it was like this was a wonderful way to get attention.

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Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I'm with you. And it's funny when

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Speaker 1: you go when someone when you need to express the

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Speaker 1: thing like what caused something? Yeah, because there's all there's

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Speaker 1: it's like a game you can play, like you know,

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Speaker 1: like like I'll often say like, yeah, I kind of

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Speaker 1: wish I hadn't done my first book the way I

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Speaker 1: did it. My wife said, well, we wouldn't have met

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Speaker 1: because I'm like, okay, but that's like that old story

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Speaker 1: where the guy goes back in time to hunt a

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Speaker 1: dinosaur and steps on a They find a dinosaur. It's

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Speaker 1: about ready to die anyway, and I really careful, rob

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Speaker 1: he's shooting a dinosaur. He stepped on a butterfly and

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Speaker 1: comes back in the Nazis in World War two and

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Speaker 1: and Trump is president. So you do get into like

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Speaker 1: what made it become that you became a writer, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's a hard thing. I've kind of like I

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Speaker 1: look at him like it's kind of because of my

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Speaker 1: tenth grade English teacher, Robert Keaton, sure kind of like

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Speaker 1: if I had to go, like, oh that right, right,

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Speaker 1: And and as far as the Hemmingway thing, I'll get

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Speaker 1: put a plug in for my sophomore UM English teacher

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Speaker 1: at the you know, with the Jesuits, was Tom McCambridge,

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Speaker 1: who's still around him, still talking um. But I knew

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Speaker 1: about hunting before I knew about Hemingway, except well, that's

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Speaker 1: not really true, because I think this is very weird.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and I don't know how these things happen.

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Speaker 1: I was seven or eight years old and I was

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Speaker 1: riding with my father in his um I think it

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Speaker 1: was a Buick Wildcat six one, and we were turning

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Speaker 1: down this street called Cherokee and Owny, California, and the

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Speaker 1: radio news came on and said, author Ernest Hemingway is dead.

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Speaker 1: And this was in the summer of that year, and

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Speaker 1: I really had no idea who he was. I was

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Speaker 1: seven years old. And then fast forward into high school

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Speaker 1: and this other you know, this strange serendipity of you know,

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Speaker 1: forces coming together whatever. Um. So yeah, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that was part of it. I think there

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Speaker 1: was that a lure of being What kind of writer

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Speaker 1: is this guy? Hemingway, you know, I mean he can

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Speaker 1: write about you know, he can he can write about stuff,

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Speaker 1: he can do stuff. He knows about stuff. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a great line that that ultimately, you

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Speaker 1: know what, writers have to know something, and he knew.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, he knew how to dig worms

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Speaker 1: and go and go fishing in the big two hearted river,

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Speaker 1: you know, which doesn't exist. They don't think or doesn't

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Speaker 1: you're little too hard? Yeah, So I mean it's it's

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Speaker 1: I mean he also he he didn't he like fumbled

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Speaker 1: with the directions or I'm on purpose to kind of

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Speaker 1: like you know, um then you mean like the Nick

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Speaker 1: Adams stories. Yeah, I mean he fudged the directions so

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Speaker 1: if you if you follow them, you'd never find the place. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean he didn't. He wasn't going to tell you

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Speaker 1: where he is particular horn. I grew up in Illinois.

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Speaker 1: Now when he shot himself, yeah, catch them idahole, catch

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Speaker 1: your mind with a shotgun. I believe was purchased from

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Speaker 1: Abercrombie and Fitch. It was a boss ten gage with

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Speaker 1: with dual triggers, but didn't wind up being there's the

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Speaker 1: thing to have. Not long ago, his family took the

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Speaker 1: shotgun down to have a mechanic destroy it. Well, it

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Speaker 1: took He took a he took a cutting torch and

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Speaker 1: cut the hole. This is in Sylvia, callabe that the

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Speaker 1: heavy ways guns, and they and they and they did that.

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Speaker 1: He went and buried it and they never found it.

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Speaker 1: But he took a couple of pieces, like the trigger, right,

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Speaker 1: put in a match a little piece of the sideline. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and put it in in a match. And they were able

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Speaker 1: to go back and and piece it all together. Because

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Speaker 1: it had always been thought that he had shot himself

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Speaker 1: with some different shotgun. It turned out that the pieces

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Speaker 1: in that matchbox was from a different shotgun or whatever

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Speaker 1: he thought he killed himself with. Now you know you're

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Speaker 1: something special when people will later argue about what gun

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Speaker 1: it was you killed yourself with. Yeah, but but more

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Speaker 1: than a heavyweight, Like I feel like when you write, uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't think you you don't write like Hevyway. I

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Speaker 1: don't think you like try it right like Hevingway. But

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Speaker 1: the stuff he wrote the seventies sounds it reminded me

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Speaker 1: a lot of like other guys that are right in

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Speaker 1: the seventies even where like early Jim Harrison, early time

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Speaker 1: mcgwaen um and it sounds it kind of reminded me

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Speaker 1: like the structure of the stuff, well, a disjointed in

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Speaker 1: structure that also reminds yea of the other guy that

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Speaker 1: shot himself in Big Sarah, California, Richard Broad Again, did

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Speaker 1: you read all those guys or was it just something

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Speaker 1: in the air. No, I read all those guys, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know that was the the the idea

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Speaker 1: that you could actually be a I think one of

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Speaker 1: mcgwyn's favorite words of sportsman, you know, and and actually

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Speaker 1: right about it, I had no interest in well, I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I didn't live in that milieu anyway. I was. I

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Speaker 1: was never gonna write about Manhattan, you know. I was

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Speaker 1: never gonna write the j McNerney kind of stuff. You know.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna write novels anyway, as it turned out,

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Speaker 1: Um though I did have I have one Nolla. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: they snow Leopard, the snow or Tail and Alan Jones,

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Speaker 1: not the snow Leopard, silver tail, snow lips tail, which

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Speaker 1: was not t a I t a y. It's it

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Speaker 1: was what we finally came with Alan Jones over Bank

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Speaker 1: Tell Pressidy here in town and he says, hello, uh

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Speaker 1: we uh that's we came up with. So anyway, Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean it was it was. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: stuff was out there and that was that was where

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Speaker 1: you looked. You know, it was you know, it was

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Speaker 1: that was the way it was. I somehow I had

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Speaker 1: this notion that you could actually make it as a

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Speaker 1: writer and not have to get sucked into academia or

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Speaker 1: someplace else. One of my uh this apricot and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know what people say, like speaking of which, or

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Speaker 1: like let's say you're talking about frogs, you know, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, frogs are generally a lot of frogs

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Speaker 1: are green. And then someone will say speaking of frogs, um,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll tell you something about frogs. I found

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Speaker 1: myself a lot of times in conversation like wanting to

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Speaker 1: raise a point that I can't even say speaking of which,

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Speaker 1: but like it's not even related to what we're talking.

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Speaker 1: But a favorite thing of mine about Tom mcgwain speaking

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Speaker 1: of no speaking yeah, speaking of mcgwain, he writes great

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Speaker 1: short stories. Still to this favorite Yeah anything yet, Hi, Hi,

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Speaker 1: I like Tom mcgwaen, So mcgway so writes, I mean

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Speaker 1: he writes phenomenal short stories. There's two short story writers

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Speaker 1: I like right now. I like Tom mcgwaen, and I

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Speaker 1: like a girl named Curtis sit and Felt. I don't

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Speaker 1: know her. Yes, yeah pieces in New York, dude, Yeah

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Speaker 1: she is good. So mcgwaen. He's got an essay he

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Speaker 1: wrote about hunting, and it's like a seventies style essay.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's essays in the seventies all were kind of the same.

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Speaker 1: It's just good versions and bad versions of it. Like

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Speaker 1: like pasta, right, like spaghetti, meat sauce. You're looking at

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Speaker 1: something it's good to something that essays in the seventies

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Speaker 1: looked a certain way. His word, the good version, well

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Speaker 1: it was. He he's got this piece he wrote where

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Speaker 1: in it he's imagining a conversation I talked about this

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Speaker 1: all the time. He's imagining a conversation between a hunt

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Speaker 1: her in an anti hunter, and the anti hunter is

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Speaker 1: taking the hunter to task and like, why do you

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Speaker 1: have to kill deer? What did dear do to you?

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Speaker 1: And the hunt was like I can't talk about it

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Speaker 1: this way, and I know, why do deer have to

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Speaker 1: die for you would you die for a deer? And

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Speaker 1: he says, if it came to that, yes, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that is I mean in circles and a spiral

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Speaker 1: and a wheel within a wheel. Now it's the like.

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Speaker 1: His editor for that piece was Terry McDonald, who coincidentally

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Speaker 1: later became my editor at Sports a Field. I know that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the and and then he uh, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and then his his I took Terry Terry out on

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Speaker 1: an ant well. I went back to New York and

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Speaker 1: I was saying, like, you're a doing an outdoor magazine. Xea,

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Speaker 1: yeah here he ever hunted anything. He goes, no, does

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Speaker 1: that matter? Yeah? I said, yeah it matters. And I said,

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Speaker 1: come out to Wyoming and we'll hunt antelope with black

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Speaker 1: powder rifles. And he said, okay. So you know, we

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Speaker 1: came out and you know, he was out in this

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Speaker 1: blind I guess, and this antelope walked by and he

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Speaker 1: killed it very you know, serviceably. And then I was

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Speaker 1: walking out to them and I got up to him

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Speaker 1: and he was like looking at me and he said,

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Speaker 1: you know, Tom, I saw you cross in the fields.

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Speaker 1: I yeah, And I suddenly had this urge to shoot

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Speaker 1: and kill you, and I said, really, Terry, yes, yes

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Speaker 1: I did. Anyway, that that evening went on for quite

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Speaker 1: a little while, and the next morning he had to

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Speaker 1: catch a plane and I had to come in and

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Speaker 1: wake him up and ask him what he wanted for breakfast,

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Speaker 1: and he said, I'll have the surfer breakfast. And I

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Speaker 1: got the surfer breakfast and he goes, he goes, yeah, uh,

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Speaker 1: twinky and a pepsi. Anyway, but he actually commissioned that

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Speaker 1: piece by mcgwayne mcgwayn piece, yeah, and it was actually

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Speaker 1: mcgwain went to him, well, he said, I want you

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Speaker 1: to I'm starting he was starting Outside, and so I

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Speaker 1: want you to write a piece for Outside, and uh,

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Speaker 1: mcgwayne said, I don't suppose you'd want something about hunting.

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Speaker 1: And he goes, well, it's not really kind of where

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Speaker 1: we're at. But sure, yeah, I've wedged I've wedged the

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Speaker 1: number of house hunting stories into Outside over the years.

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Speaker 1: There you go, you gotta cram them in there. If

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Speaker 1: you try hard enough, you can stick it in there. Now,

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Speaker 1: there's the thing you say in your book that really

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Speaker 1: surprised me. I want to make sure that you think

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Speaker 1: this is correct. The Africa has a lower percentage of

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Speaker 1: what one would call wilderness than does the world in general. Supposedly, Uh,

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Speaker 1: that are that those are the statistics that I guess

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Speaker 1: it kind of makes sense if you think about and

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Speaker 1: and it's like if you think about the boots and

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Speaker 1: its semantics, the circumpolar boreal like they are the Antarctic.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's but the other figure that's more interesting,

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Speaker 1: I think is that there is more wilderness in North

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Speaker 1: America than there is in Africa. I just well, but

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Speaker 1: you have to realize that the African Africans are essentially

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Speaker 1: pastoralists and agrarians. So they are, you know they are,

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Speaker 1: and there's some there's a billion of them, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a billion Africans, and and they tend to be

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Speaker 1: spread out. You know. It's it's if you took off

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Speaker 1: here and went up in the mountains someplace, and we're

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Speaker 1: walking around, you would be surprised to run into somebody.

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Speaker 1: You know you could, but I mean in places if

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Speaker 1: you know, there is almost no place in Africa where

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Speaker 1: you will not run into somebody. They'll be on foot,

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Speaker 1: they may be carrying a spear, they may be driving

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Speaker 1: a cow, they may be doing whatever. You know, but

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Speaker 1: that tempers the definition of wilderness, you know, So it's

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Speaker 1: it's it is more. I mean it is a it

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Speaker 1: is a rural society more than a wilderness society. Is

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Speaker 1: that a probably probably possibly of um, maybe the landscape

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Speaker 1: or the people requiring a larger piece of the landscape

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Speaker 1: they have they have to elude Um. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you don't Val guy stuff in BC. But we

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Speaker 1: talked about that guy every day. Yeah, I love him.

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Speaker 1: He's a great guy. Um Vale's anyway, so Val would like,

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Speaker 1: you know, Val is like what I was asking him.

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Speaker 1: I said, what will produce more biomass? And he goes, well,

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Speaker 1: you gotta remember African is, as he says, thin soils.

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Speaker 1: They don't. They didn't have the advantages of glaciers pushing

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Speaker 1: all this top soil down like we have here, and

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Speaker 1: so we have a much more fertile base as it were,

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Speaker 1: that you can you can grow a lot less in

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Speaker 1: Africa than you can here. And because of that, the

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Speaker 1: people tend to be more spread out, and so they're there.

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Speaker 1: It's like how cows are spread out. Yeah, if you

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Speaker 1: go look at like like grazing ratios in Florida, cows

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Speaker 1: per acre. Yeah, let me look at cows per acre

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Speaker 1: in West Texas. It takes a hell of a lot

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Speaker 1: more ground. I mean, if you want to if you

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Speaker 1: want to raise cattle, you go to Iowa and you

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Speaker 1: feed him silage. You know, that's that's the sensible way

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Speaker 1: of doing it. Um. You ever see a map of

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Speaker 1: where you could raise cattle that'll supplemental feed. No, but

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's fascinating. It's not a big chunk of ground. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: it's I mean it's and it's like, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: how much how much corn is raised for cattle? So

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, that really threw me for a loop. And

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Speaker 1: and and as you like, I've never I've never stepped

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Speaker 1: foot on Africa. I've always been kind of interested in

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Speaker 1: going there. Um And I've come kind of close sometimes

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Speaker 1: to go in there hunting. But I have so many,

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Speaker 1: so many things about it. Give me pause, and I'll

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Speaker 1: ask you about a lot of those things. But it's

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Speaker 1: I'm coming at you in discussing this, um not not

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Speaker 1: from an educated perspective. Yeah, I don't know what I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about. Oftentimes I have the luxury of talking. That

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Speaker 1: doesn't stop a lot of people from feel like what

390
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Speaker 1: what doesn't happen is a lot of people don't lay

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Speaker 1: that out right. Well, that's that's that's an admirable position.

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Speaker 1: You're talking your you're talking to your book, and this

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Speaker 1: might be a good way to kind of lay out

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Speaker 1: like when you started going there, how many times you've

395
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Speaker 1: been there? You're talking to your book at a point

396
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Speaker 1: where you say, there's old school African hunting and there's

397
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Speaker 1: new school African hunting. Ryan, what are they? And when

398
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: did and when did uh that that? When did it tip? Well?

399
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Speaker 1: I think I can't deny that there are probably aspects

400
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Speaker 1: of what I kind of think of as old school.

401
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Speaker 1: Let's put it this way. When I first started going

402
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Speaker 1: to Africa forty plus years ago, you when you're in

403
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: the twenties, it was it. Yeah, when I first started

404
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: going there, it was we would go out, we we

405
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: would go to the game department and we would get

406
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: licenses and permits. It wasn't just complete you know, las

407
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Speaker 1: a fair but in the permits were expensive or inexpensive

408
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: all relatively speaking, It depends on where you were, you know.

409
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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess they were expensive at the time,

410
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Speaker 1: but I had I It wasn't like buying like elk

411
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Speaker 1: tags as a resident or like buying a deer tag

412
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Speaker 1: as a resident in Florida. Yeah, yeah, well I don't Yeah, yeah,

413
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Speaker 1: I mean it was. Let's put it this way. I

414
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: mean it was. It has certainly become exponentially more expensive

415
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Speaker 1: for what it was, like it's a head of inflation. Yeah,

416
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: what it was in those days was probably not considered cheap.

417
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 1: I had the benefit. I had some money that I

418
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: had gotten, and I had enough money to either, let's say,

419
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Speaker 1: go put a down payment on a house or go

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Speaker 1: to Africa. This is the first time you went. You

421
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: didn't go as a writer? No, I wasn't. I wasn't published.

422
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: You know, I got you. So I just went, you know,

423
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: and it was like it was like it was like,

424
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do when you get back? You know,

425
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: this is my question more than anything else. And I

426
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: didn't have an answer. I mean I didn't. Well, I

427
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: guess I'll come back and try to write about something,

428
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: you know. But I, for some reason, because of my

429
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: experience of a friend of my father's, his influence on me,

430
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, too many books read at two young an age. Um,

431
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to go. I wanted to see it. That's

432
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: a quote in your book were Hemingway what what Hemingway

433
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: books that we're Havingway were one of the characters says, hey,

434
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: we should go to Africa and go hunting. Their characters

435
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: never had any desire. He goes, that's just because you

436
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: haven't read a book about it. That's yeah, that's from

437
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: uh the sun also right, but anyway they Yeah, No,

438
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's the you know what was I

439
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: gonna say? Are the the that I when I went there?

440
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: You you had, you were, you were mobile, you moved,

441
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: you know you if if we will go, we will

442
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: we would go into an area and we would find

443
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: a spot and would go, you know, under the fever

444
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: trees and we would put the tents up and then

445
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: we would hunt them and then and not hunting. These

446
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: aren't fenced areas. Just just no, no, no, no no.

447
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: When you say we, who is we, Well, me and

448
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: I'd have a professional hunter, you know, they would just

449
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: be the two of us, two of you got on

450
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: the track. That's another thing I mentioned in the book.

451
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: I mean, because basically you have you know, there's there's

452
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a polite fiction that the professional

453
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: hunter is there for you know, but the guys who

454
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: are really doing the work are the trackers because they

455
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: are so good at what they do. But in those

456
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: so it was still you professional hunter and multiple trackers.

457
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: The professional hunter is like a liaison. He's he's a

458
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: legal requirement, but he's also he's more than that. But

459
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: it's not a legal requirement that he be white. No,

460
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: And I've hunted with black professional hunters you know who've

461
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: been are great guys, I mean like native born well,

462
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess most of white professional hunters, well

463
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: know you mentioned a lot were born in England and elsewhere.

464
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: Not necessarily no, I mean some of them. You know,

465
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: the first guy hunter with John Fletcher, he was actually

466
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: born in India, um, but he was he was a colonialist,

467
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: I guess, is a you know, without any pejorative attachment

468
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: to that word. Um. But he was with Kurt, Donnie

469
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: and Selby, you know, and that was that was you know,

470
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: this wasn't this is kind of the way it was

471
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: in those days. Is I found a night I knew

472
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: the name Kurran Downey, um, which is what an outfitter. Yeah,

473
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: it was like Robert Rourke, you know, and those guys

474
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: hunted with with Kurran Downey. And then Harry Selby is

475
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: the guy who was Rourke's professional hunter and and and

476
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: he he put in with these two guys and they

477
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: became Kurve Downey and Selby Safari's and I actually knew

478
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: the name. I had no other information on them. And

479
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: I a friend of mine had gone to Nairobe and

480
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: he'd come back with the phone book. He'd stolen the

481
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: phone book because he thought it was pretty cool to

482
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: have U, you know, the night robe phone book, And

483
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: so I looked it up. I got their name and

484
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: address out of the thing, and I wrote him a

485
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: letter and I said I want to go home with

486
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: you guys. And this letter came back with all these

487
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: blue lions on the outside of the letter going, we'd

488
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: love to have come pretty cool and um, so that's

489
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: how I got over there. You know, now, of course,

490
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,959
Speaker 1: today you're gonna go to like the conventions, and you're

491
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: gonna go to a booking age and you're gonna you know,

492
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: you're gonna it's all it's all gonna be brokered for you.

493
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: It's all going to be negotiation anyway. That's and that's

494
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: the way it is, And I don't I'm not one

495
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: of those kind of guys who like says, well that's

496
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: you know, that makes it all bad. It's just the

497
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: way it makes it the way it is. But um

498
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: so we note when I first went there and and

499
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: it was and it was that was still this this

500
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: this hold over of the kind of some of the

501
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: worst aspects of colonialism. I'm not gonna deny that. When

502
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: I the way I hunted in Kenya and at that time,

503
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the way that people have been

504
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: hunting for seventy eight years, you know, and it was

505
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: the way. What was the way? Like what's that that?

506
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: It was the structure, the the organization, you know, the

507
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: fact that you were going into an area and you

508
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: were hunting. You know, we were the But what was

509
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: colonial because it was exploitative of the well it was

510
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: it was a skin color. Was was you know, a

511
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: factor a factor uh in I mean in compensation in hierarchy. No,

512
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: it was just the way it was. But it was

513
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: a factor. And what it was the way that was

514
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: the way the Safari system had been structured and and

515
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: it evolved from you know, like Roosevelt on is you

516
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: had you had a professional hunter with a licensed hunter,

517
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: and then it was you know, he would set up

518
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: the camps and he he had responsibility, and it was,

519
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 1: you know, what they wanted to make sure. It was

520
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: that when the Mazoongu, the crazy white guy who's going

521
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: over here to hunt, he's not gonna get killed because

522
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: we don't want him to be killed. That's gonna look bad.

523
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be good for our our tourist industry,

524
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: you know. I mean the second time. The first time

525
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: Hemmingway went to Tanzania in Gnyka in those days, that

526
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: was on his own dime, or at least his wife's

527
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: uncle's dime, you know, and it was a pretty expensive

528
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: deal in those days. You figured out it's not you

529
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: when he went back the second time to Kenya for

530
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: I don't know how long months he was there um

531
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: as the guest of the Kenyan Game Department, because they

532
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: wanted we would love to have some promotion to get

533
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: people here too. You know, we're we're kind of on

534
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: the cusp of the Mau Mau uprisings and we're getting

535
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: some bad press and we want to you know, we

536
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: would love to have you come in here and and

537
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: you know, hang around, and so that's what he was.

538
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: I feel I got that because I feel like I'm

539
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: missing something. Sure, the first time you went, you go

540
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: there and you there, there's a feller, the pH he's

541
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: a white guy, right, and there's some element of he's

542
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: a loonial being that European countries carved up Africa and

543
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: they had colonies and there was a offset power structure

544
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: that favored those white individuals or the indigenous individuals that

545
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: lived there. Yeah, and also hunting with you are trackers.

546
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: The trackers are there as you know, they're they're working

547
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: for They are hired by the professional hunter, and you

548
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: say they do the heavy lifting of the hunting. They're

549
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: the guy who they're the guy. You put them on

550
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: a track and they're gonna they're gonna figure out where

551
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: that track ends up to a degree where you're like,

552
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: holy sh it, this guy is good at tracking. Oh man,

553
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: oh man, like you wouldn't be able to do. You know,

554
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: that's the scary part. If you follow those guys around,

555
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: even for a few weeks, you can begin to like actually,

556
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, kind of deceive yourself into figuring out, oh,

557
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: what it is they're doing. And you get to the

558
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: point where you're start. You can like, look, oh, here's

559
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: a buffalo track. Look how look how it look? How

560
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: the edge is shiny, it's fresh, you know, it's not

561
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: blown over. You know, so it was probably this morning.

562
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: Let's go, let's get on this track and and go.

563
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: And you also mentioned how the coarseness of the vegetation

564
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: in the buffalo ship, yeah, giving you an indication of

565
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: tooth ways, especially elephants. Elephants you can look at you

566
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: can get the you know, the elephant dounge is like

567
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: this basketball laying on the ground, and you can look

568
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: at how coarse the grass stems are in it. That

569
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: will tell you that it's an older bull because his

570
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: teeth are worn down and he's not he's not chewing

571
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 1: it as much as he could as a younger one.

572
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: So that's that's an indication of something. It doesn't, you know,

573
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: none of that tells you if your elephant hunting. None

574
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: the tell And I've never hunted. I've never taken an

575
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: elephant with who I would have, but I never have

576
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: um and I add the that the the fact is

577
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: that that doesn't tell how big the ivory is. You know,

578
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 1: the size of the track doesn't tell you anything if

579
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: it's got a big tusk or not. Right, So old

580
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: school new school, new school is now okay, old school

581
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 1: is explained more about old school. Okay, well old schools. Essentially,

582
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: you were hunting as close to wilderness in Africa as

583
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: you could find, you know, as we're talking about before

584
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: it was it was when by the definition of oldness

585
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: in this country probably wouldn't qualify. You know, there were

586
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: motor vehicles allowed, you could, you know, but you were

587
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: out in the middle of nowhere, you know, and it

588
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: was and you would find you would run across you know,

589
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: massi who were still I mean guys with spears. Guys

590
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: were still these guys were still spearing lions in those days,

591
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: you know. And and it was all essentially it was

592
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: it was government land, open land, wild land. It was.

593
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: It wasn't controlled by anybody just roaming around you were

594
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: you were. Essentially you would, yeah, you would essentially you

595
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: had you had you had arranged for the right to

596
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: hunt it for a certain amount of time and and

597
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: a certain perimeter. You know. They they broke it up

598
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 1: on what they called hunting blocks, and you would actually

599
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,439
Speaker 1: get blocked sixty and you would hunt blocked sixty which

600
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: might be fifty thousand makers. I don't know. I mean

601
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: it was just go on forever and the pH arrange

602
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: that with the government. Yeah yeah, I mean he was,

603
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: he was, you know, that's what they did. They'd go

604
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: to the game department. Now fast forward thirty years to

605
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: the new school New school and you kind of get

606
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: to the South African model and the South African model.

607
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: The land is owned by the hunter or by a landowner,

608
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: and then the hunter professional hunter will like sort of

609
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: lease that out, you know, and you'll bring in his

610
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: clients quote unquote clients and they will um and unquote Oh,

611
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: I just there's there. You know, you get that, you

612
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: get into that that weird area like as am I

613
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: a hunter? Am I a client? Am I not? You know,

614
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: you go back and forth on that. I don't understand

615
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Well, you know, it's it's it's how

616
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: much how much handholding are you getting? Well and and

617
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: meaning a client gets more than a hunter. Client is

618
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: the term I think to avoid confusion with professional hunter.

619
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: You know that that that you are the client is

620
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: a hunter. The professional hunter is the licensed guide on

621
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 1: the hunt. So I think for the term of art

622
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 1: is client. You are the client of the professional hunter.

623
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: But that would seem like a really literal perfect word client. Yeah,

624
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: given the guy money to take you hunting, you're his client. Yep, yep.

625
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: The same thing in this country when you go, you know,

626
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: that's the word guided. He he does talk about He

627
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 1: talks about clients. Do you think guys go over there

628
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: and then disliked being called clients because they wanted to

629
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: be called well, you know, I mean, there's there's there's

630
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: you know, everybody wants to be jungle Jim. You know,

631
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: everyone wants to come back where you know, as soon

632
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: as they go, they want to run out and buy

633
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: the Safari jacket and the you know with the bullet

634
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 1: holes or the pouches in the in the in the shirt,

635
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: so that they aspire to be taken more seriously than

636
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: they are. Yeah. Yeah, well you know, and and and

637
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: there's a great one I got and I think I

638
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 1: quote Jim Harrison in the book where he talks about that,

639
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: you know that, um, there there's a there's a certain

640
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: amount of African hunting that um is really a polite

641
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: fiction or a little comedy that that that wealthy sportsmen

642
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: play on their less well healed brethren back home. You know,

643
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 1: it's like they're always getting charged by a lion, attacked

644
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: by a cake buffalo or something. And and well, but anyway,

645
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: the and and and there is a point to this

646
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: that um so now it's like, you know, and God

647
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: bless him. I mean, if you want to go to Africa,

648
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: go to Africa. And if God who any any hunter

649
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: who wants to go to Africa, if he wants to

650
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: go to South Africa and he wants to shoot a

651
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:37,439
Speaker 1: kudu in a ORICX and a whatever, you know, I don't.

652
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: I don't feel bad about that because the meat is

653
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: going to be used, every scrap of it. But in

654
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: the new school model, what's the main I don't I

655
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: still want to say, in the main difference time I

656
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: think it's I think more than anything else, it's it's

657
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: it's it's scheduled in time, and if you go there,

658
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 1: they run it like a hunt factory in some instances.

659
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: In some cases that doesn't mean you cannot find places

660
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: in Africa that are not that you know, and I

661
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: the more you, for lack of a better term, mature

662
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: in your African hunting, it's less interesting that kind of

663
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: hunting becomes so sketch out that kind of hunting because

664
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: can I tell what I think my my impression. Let's

665
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: start with my impression based on nothing sure, and you

666
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 1: tell me where I'm wrong. My impression of going to

667
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: South Africa to hunt is you're hunting on fenced land

668
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: and you go and you have a budget. Yeah, and

669
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: they're like, you can shoot that and that's five thou dollars.

670
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: You can shoot that and that's eight thousand dollars. And

671
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: guys walk drive around on the truck and they're like, oh, no, ship,

672
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: that's what one of those looks like wam and the

673
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: guys like that's six and he's like, well, I can

674
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: only spend twenty, so let's go shoot some more it.

675
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: So I get up to fourteen and I'm then I'm

676
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: aheading on keep the tally going, Um, is that wrong? No?

677
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: Oh well, I mean I mean I mean in the

678
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: in the in the cosmic sense, yeah, it's really wrong.

679
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: But I mean in the sense of of what you're

680
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: gonna what the way things can be can be, and

681
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 1: I want to make sure I make that clear can

682
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: be that can be the experience. Many people go to

683
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: Africa and come back and describe as their African hunt.

684
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: And that plays out over how many days? How how

685
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: fast do you want to shoot him? They're that abundant.

686
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: Depends depends on what the guy's got, you know, I

687
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: mean he's got you know, he's he may have a

688
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: he may have a run on springbok this week. Well,

689
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: he may have he may he may go I've got

690
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: I've got I've got a thousand acres of productive springbuck habitat,

691
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: and I've got that will support fifties springbok or you know,

692
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: and he puts them in there or they're there. He's

693
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: put them in there before they have bread. They are

694
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: usually self sustaining and breeding on their own, you know.

695
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: But they are cutting animals loose into there for people

696
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: to go get. No, the animals there, you're just going

697
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: inside to get it. So it's not like, uh, it's

698
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: not like the kind of canned hunt or fence hunt

699
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: where they cut the animal loose in the morning. No no,

700
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: no no, and you go shoot it that down. No,

701
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: they don't do that. They don't do that in that

702
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 1: from now, well, I can't say that it's a big

703
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: place that's there may be places where that happens. I

704
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: don't know that, you know. I mean, I I've hunted

705
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: in all I've hunted behind fences, and it's it was okay,

706
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: But I very quickly learned the difference because you had

707
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: started out in the wild, yea, And so whenever I

708
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: could go back, you know, I haven't gone to I

709
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: haven't hunted in South Africa in twenty years. It's South

710
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: Africa kind of the center of the new school. What

711
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: remains the center of the old school? Well, Tanzania. Tanzania

712
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: is still rolling around in the woods, is yeah, and

713
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: it's fabulously expensive. It's more expensive to roam around in

714
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 1: the woods dealing with uncertainty is to not roam around.

715
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: So guys know the difference because people paying for that

716
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: experience there. Yeah, that's the whole point. They're not paying

717
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: for the animal, They're paying for the experience when they

718
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: go to someplace like Tanzania, the animal becomes a matter

719
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: of indifference. And it's okay, that's not correct either, But

720
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you know, it isn't like, you know,

721
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: the first things too many guys can do is go

722
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: up to an animal and go where does this go?

723
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 1: In the book? You know, and they expect their their

724
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: professional hunter to tell them that will be in the

725
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: top the top camper cent you know, and they'll go, okay, great,

726
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 1: And then I am at a loss fro why that exists.

727
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: But but at the same time I can also realize

728
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: that it does support game lands in South Africa but

729
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: otherwise have absolutely no economic value. So it's it's it's

730
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a that's the part of

731
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: it that starts to get really it's it's it's it's

732
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: a bargain with the devil, you know. It's it's Do

733
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: I want to go there and hunt? Probably not, because

734
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: why I just don't have a good feeling afterwards. How

735
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: many times do you hunted in Africa? Thirteen or fourteen

736
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: times over the last forty years? No, mean, there's guys

737
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 1: who have hunted lots. This guys have gone more, much

738
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: much more. The guy, the guy who wrote here in

739
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: Dutch my book, Craig Bodington, has hunted a hundred times. Now,

740
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: why in your whole book do you never mention someone

741
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 1: shooting a hippopotamus? If they do? And I've I've actually

742
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: I would. That's kind of one of my dark secrets

743
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: that I would love to do someday. But I don't

744
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: want to shoot him in the water. I want to

745
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: shoot him on the land. The reason I asked that,

746
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: The reason I asked that is I think that growing

747
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: up where growing up in the United States. Well there

748
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: they had a conversation with a friend of mine who

749
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: just gone to New Zealand. And we're talking about wildlife

750
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: management in New Zealand, Okay, where while we're generally the

751
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: wildlife of general interest the hunters is all non native,

752
00:45:55,280 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: oftentimes delaterious, exotic wildlife. We're talking about like that world.

753
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: And I was saying to him that growing up in

754
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: the United States and understanding our systems in the the United

755
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: States leaves you completely ill prepared to understand wildlife and

756
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: wildlife management in a place like New Zealand, or or

757
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: or Europe or almost the rest anywhere. Moral there's an

758
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: added layer to it in Africa, where I think that

759
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: we don't know those animals. We only know the fictionalized

760
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: version of the animals in Africa, we don't know We

761
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: don't know hippos. We know hippos as the way they've

762
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: been presented to us, and this elaborate fiction fantasia and

763
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: this elaborate fantasia of animation of like kids, American kids

764
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: learn what a zebra is before they learn what an

765
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: elk is. Yeah, it's like animals. Those animals are somehow

766
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: Some of those animals are so charismatic and so otherworldly

767
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: that it winds up being that your average kid would

768
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: be like giraffe, elephant, zebra, lion, and he would not

769
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 1: be able to go jaguar, mountain lion, bobcat, elk, psy

770
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: a blacktail, whet. It just it's like we live with

771
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: these animals in a way that that forms an impression

772
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 1: him as being somehow other than animals. So I think

773
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 1: that a lot of the complication around Africa would be

774
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: like a lot of people look and I was reading

775
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: your book waiting for a hippo to come into it,

776
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 1: because when I look at it, dude with a dead hippo,

777
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: I just do not see a game animal. I don't

778
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 1: know what I see, But I'm like, how in the world,

779
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: why how well you know? I mean, that's dude, get

780
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: that feeling you like animals, seem you hunt animals that

781
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: seem like, yeah, you an you talk about a giraffe,

782
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 1: you jumped up and it looked like a radio tower

783
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: decided to run away. And I've and i've I've had

784
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: people extol the virtues of what a wonderful thing it

785
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: was when they killed a giraffe. But you don't want

786
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 1: to do it. I have absolutely no Why don't you

787
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: want to shoot? Why in your book does no one

788
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 1: really shoot at the animals that all little kids know about? Well,

789
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true or not. I mean,

790
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: you know, giraffes and stuff. I mean, not giraffes, but zebras.

791
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: Sure like hunted zebras. Yeah, I like zebras, y know.

792
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: I mean they're they're tough when they're smart, and they

793
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: seem and you in your time in Africa, the zebra

794
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: became like a game animal and not like a thing

795
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: from a child's mobile. It's always been a game animal,

796
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, but your perception of it, yeah, yeah, no,

797
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: I you know, you know. And there's the other aspect

798
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 1: of it is one thing you begin to realize that

799
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: you become something of a surrogate for the Africans. You

800
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,879
Speaker 1: are hunting with the people you are with who are

801
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: the trackers. You become the surrogate hunter for them because

802
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: of the gross and fair unfairness frankly of the game laws.

803
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: You know, um oh, that you're able to hunt and

804
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: they're not. They they can't afford it, they can't they

805
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: can't have firearms, they can't have you know, they got

806
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: a line. You had a line if you talked about

807
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 1: coaching is a word for people doing what they used

808
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: to do, but now it's illegal for them to do it. Yeah,

809
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: kind of. I mean, it's it's it's you know, one

810
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: day you went from a guy out getting food and

811
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: the next day you're a poacher. Well, it's pretty much it.

812
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the whole system of the colonial

813
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: park system where they would take all these people to

814
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: run them off of that you read. I mean I

815
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: was talking about about ionades, the you know, and this

816
00:49:55,000 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: guy created one of the v monumental game reserve in

817
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: human history and what countries that in Tanzania in the Salu.

818
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: But he did it in a thousand square miles of wilderness,

819
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: and he did it in the most bloodthirsty way imaginable.

820
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: He didn't kill anybody, but he made sure that they

821
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: had to leave the past. Yeah, the pastoralists, and he

822
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: had he got them out of there, you know. And

823
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: now that is yeah, you were mentioned that he had

824
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 1: spent a big part of his career killing problem elephants. Yeah,

825
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,919
Speaker 1: but then once he got on this idea of establishing

826
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 1: a wilderness salute that when people would move in, they

827
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: would provide no assistance to those people that the lion

828
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: was getting them if an elephant was getting was like

829
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: tough ship, this is wilderness. And and and he wanted

830
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: to create literally a sanctuary for elephants where they were

831
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: safe from poachers. Um, you know that they could basically

832
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: in that square miles. They never had to go outside

833
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: the boundaries of that area and they were protected, you know.

834
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 1: And it was part of the problem you get into.

835
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: And it's it's always a it's always a tough one.

836
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: Is is we're on the scale, does the value of

837
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: the animal begin to outweigh the value of the human?

838
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: You know there that's a humongous question in this country. Well,

839
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: Norm Strung who used to live here in Bozeman. He

840
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: ustry for field and stream and he would go down

841
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: to Mexico every winner. He would like shut the house down.

842
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 1: He and his wife still and they jump in the

843
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: bass boat and they go down to like Obragone or

844
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:03,959
Speaker 1: someplace down and they've lived there all winter fishing. And

845
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: he said, the first day he came back, he got

846
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: to this village and everybody comes out, they go, how

847
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 1: did you do? It? Goes, oh, man, we must they

848
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: had a hundred and fifty fish, you know, all all

849
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: large mouth bass. They where are they? They go, we

850
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: threw him back, and he goes, you threw him back

851
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 1: because and then he started looking around and he started

852
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: seeing all these little kids with pelegra and you know,

853
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: swollen bellies and stuff. And he's, you know, this was

854
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: a long time ago down to Mexico, but these villages,

855
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: these villages were poor and they were protein hungry. And

856
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: he said, he said, after that, to hell with it.

857
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: I never threw anything back. I brought it in and

858
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 1: I gave it away. So I mean, you kind of

859
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: get into that bind when you're there. It's like it's

860
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: like because you mean, like you mean literally human life,

861
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: because we could look at me like we have a

862
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 1: conflict in this country with with wilderness or wild lands

863
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: where we'll be like, I'm not asking you like this

864
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: wilderness is it gonna mean you die? This is gonna

865
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: mean you might make a little less money otherwise might

866
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 1: have made. We have a tremendous luxury. Yeah, and and

867
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: and we have just this unsurpassed gift. You know that

868
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: that Africans would look at and they would they wouldn't

869
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: understand you if you try to explain to them, you

870
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: know what, why why why aren't you why didn't you

871
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 1: kill that lion? Like, well, beautiful animal, I didn't want

872
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 1: to kill them. When we'll watch it, you know, go

873
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: off into the sunset and they go, that lion just

874
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: killed two of my cows. You know, it chased my

875
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: brother up a tree last week. So you would never

876
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: have a situation because in your book you get the

877
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: sense it's a weird part of the you're out and

878
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:02,399
Speaker 1: what would be like you're out crazy ship, lions running around, baboons,

879
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: crazy animals, elephants and then like dudes come rolling through

880
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 1: camp and see if they could get like a chunk

881
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: of meat, and they got a cow with him. So

882
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: did you would you ever encounter would you ever encounter

883
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: people out in the in the wilderness who are like, man,

884
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 1: it's not right that you're out here shooting our animals. Well, uh,

885
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever read or you know

886
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: who Joy Adamson was. Adam she was. She was the

887
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 1: author who wrote Born Free, and she was a she

888
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,280
Speaker 1: was actually an Austrian, I think. And she was married

889
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: to George Adamson, who was one of the you know,

890
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: the kind of the body sock of of game rangers

891
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: in Kenya. I mean he was he was such an

892
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 1: early proponent of concert anyway, I mean he was a

893
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 1: you know, and and she was he was an early

894
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: proponent of not shooting the animals. Well he was, yeah,

895
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: well he was a proponent of like like you know,

896
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: he was. He was there on the ground working this stuff,

897
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: you know. And then the whole story of Born Free

898
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: is they found some lion they found there, Yeah, well

899
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: they found a lion cub and mother was killed or

900
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: something was dead. And then so they raised the lion

901
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: cub and it was called Elsa. And they raised Elsa

902
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 1: the lion, and there was this, you know, then the

903
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: song Born Free. And eventually she turned the lion back

904
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: loose into the wild and let it go free again,

905
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: and and then it eventually started they where the movie ended.

906
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 1: They didn't mention the fact that the lion kept kind

907
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: of hanging around, you know, people's camps and houses and

908
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: villages and somebody finally killed. It didn't get yeah, no,

909
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 1: it never it was. It was habituated, you know, it's

910
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 1: like it's like like, don't feed the bears. Um. But anyway,

911
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: so I was in with Fletcher and Kenya. We were

912
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 1: in and Ambassilli Park. We're changing blocks and we stayed

913
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: overnight in the lodge and so we're in the restaurant

914
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: and like and like I look up and I go,

915
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: I see this blonde woman running around, you know, greeting

916
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 1: and meeting everybody. And I go to fletch Rock, Is

917
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: that think it's joy Adamson? And I said, really, God's sake,

918
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:26,399
Speaker 1: don't tell her we're hunting even then and even there,

919
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: well even then even there and then you know, and

920
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 1: then she was eventually murdered by one of her servants

921
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: because she was just not a nice lady. Well, you

922
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,399
Speaker 1: could be pretty mean and still not deserved to get murder.

923
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 1: I didn't say she deserved it, but I'm just saying

924
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: that that she certainly didn't go out of her way

925
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: to be nice. Do you ever see the movie Bernie Bernie?

926
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: Know what's that? One just explores like how bad. You

927
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: gotta be right before it's okay for someone to kill you. Yeah,

928
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: I know, I'm not. I'm not advocating. No, no, I

929
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: don't think you are. No. No, um, I think I've

930
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: noticed in recent years, and let me interrupt that you do.

931
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: You do a really good job of writing about drafts

932
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: running away, right, the analogies right, construction equipment taking off

933
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: or other things. But the thing I think about I

934
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: want to think about Africa, especially through the lens of

935
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: this way. Like I'm interested in the controversies of hunting, right, sure,

936
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: everybody is, and and uh Africa, like, like the behavior

937
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: of Americans in Africa generates this never ending amount of

938
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: of outrage. Well, the behavior of Americans almost anywhere. You know,

939
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: we we have we have a chief executive who was

940
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: who was saying to the first Lady of France yesterdays, yeah,

941
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: you're in really great shape. Something that's really surprised. Not

942
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 1: that surprised me, but I was like, it's like not

943
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: reading the room real well, no, it's no no filter

944
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: reading the room. Well, it's it's it's basically the I

945
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 1: figured it out. It's the billionaire subduction technique. You know, like, hey, baby,

946
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: I gotta I got a billion dollars, he told her.

947
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: He turned to her and says, you're in very good

948
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: physical shape. It turns to the president in France, it

949
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 1: says beautiful, very good physical shape, at which point she

950
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: steps backwards. Dude, it was like, yeah, I was really

951
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: surprising because um, I would go and meet the president

952
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: of France and I would be thinking, I'll tell you,

953
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: one thing I'm not gonna talk about is his wife.

954
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: How is she over? How is she over? A muddy trap.

955
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: So think I've noticed about Africa is that African outrage. Okay,

956
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: So every day, like if you follow social media, every day,

957
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 1: there's a thing that everyone's supposed to be outraged over,

958
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: and we feign outrage and share our feigned outrage over

959
00:58:57,560 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: social media. And one of the things one thing that

960
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: people love to feinn outrage over is someone having shot

961
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: something in Africa that was cute or that was a

962
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 1: fantastical animal that we that we feel as fantastical because

963
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: the way they're woven into the fabric of our culture.

964
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: African megaphun But it's seemed to me that the thing

965
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: that with Americans, they get more piste, the weirder, it

966
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: seems that the person that shot the thing would have

967
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: been their shooting stuff. So if there's a guy that

968
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: made millions doing like heating and cooling from Florida, Guinniss,

969
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: if he shoots something generally, generally it's different if a

970
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 1: young gal, if a young gal, a high school gal

971
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: say we're to go and shoot something in Africa, that

972
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: is more offensive to Americans. And if there was a

973
00:59:54,360 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 1: guy from the heating and cooling industry, except for seize

974
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: the lion, the dentist guy, Now, if that had been

975
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: a high school cheerleader, that would have been like really bad.

976
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: But it was as bad as could be. Now as

977
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: a guy has been going there forty years, what what's

978
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: your take on all that? Well, like, who's the blame

979
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 1: for how ridiculous that all seen? Well, the first thing

980
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 1: is is don't post your pictures on social media as

981
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 1: as if that's a message if I can give you,

982
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: if I if I am going to be your you know,

983
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: campaign advisor can not do not post the pictures on

984
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: social media. But that's why people do stuff, and and

985
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: that and that and that and that is exactly that's

986
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: why people get out of bed. That's exactly the problem.

987
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean you know, it's it's I remember talking to

988
01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: a pH one time and he was telling me about

989
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 1: this guy had taken this just incredible looking animal. I

990
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: mean it was I think it was a Nile Leshi.

991
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 1: Yeah right. That was not my mobile as a child, No, no, no,

992
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: but it was a beautiful nile. You know. It's one

993
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: of those kind of things that you could just even

994
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: if you've never seen a Nile Leshwie before, if you

995
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: saw this one, you would go, that is the nile

996
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: Lesti of Nile lest Is it a monkey? No, ok,

997
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 1: it's a it's an anti loop. It's a picture. Oh

998
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: that's good or Mrs grayslist you're black and white but

999
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: big s shaped forms. Yeah that's bad mofo. Right yeah

1000
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, I'm tracking. Okay, So that's like a game

1001
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: animal to me. Yeah, And it's and you know, and

1002
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: that's that's the other aspect. But you know, he had

1003
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: this guy who would like who like hunt with him,

1004
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: and he was showing me his picture. Oh that's great. Look,

1005
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: he goes, what do you you know what he did?

1006
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 1: You put in the book? I think, goes, no, he

1007
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have a he has nothing. And he said, this

1008
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 1: guy has killed so many hunted. I would rather say

1009
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 1: this guy is hunted more trophy book animals in Africa

1010
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: than almost anybody I know. Just never put a single

1011
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: one in the book because he doesn't want to. He

1012
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 1: doesn't care about the recognition. Yeah, that's not why he's

1013
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: doing it. Well, yeah, I mean you're aware of that.

1014
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: I'm a Turkey Grand Slam holder, so am I I'm

1015
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 1: a super slam I'm a super Slam holder. So okay.

1016
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 1: So so the guy. So is it annoying that I'm

1017
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 1: asking about the lions? He's a one? What's your take

1018
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: on it? You know, because you got you I don't know,

1019
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. I mean, I am guilty.

1020
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: Can I ask in two parts? Part what's your take

1021
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 1: on what happened, not how it was perceived? Was that

1022
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: business usual or was that like a funked up thing

1023
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 1: that happened. I have serious reservations about the affair, you know,

1024
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 1: the Macomber affair. This was the cecil affair. Yeah, no,

1025
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: I mean that's part B is gonna be what's your

1026
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 1: take on how it's part it's a park lion that

1027
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 1: they sat on the edge of the park and waited

1028
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 1: for it to walk out. You feel that they knew

1029
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 1: of course they knew of and the and the other

1030
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 1: thing about it was because it's people. People make a

1031
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 1: big deal like this guy spent fifty that's cheap. That

1032
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 1: that's cheap. But that's okay. I mean, that's a part

1033
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: that shouldnt met Is it better if it was free

1034
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 1: that lion? That lion should have cost seventy to a

1035
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars because that's what the market is, if

1036
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 1: you're gonna go, you know, the the invisible hand of capitalism.

1037
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: He got that lion for about half price. And the

1038
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 1: reason he got it for half price was the guy.

1039
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: I have to be careful here because I'm not sure,

1040
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: you know, if we want we want to don't don't

1041
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 1: want to get into like areas that maybe oh un

1042
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 1: you're saying right now, Well like just saying we don't

1043
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:00,439
Speaker 1: want we don't want to get into the areas where where?

1044
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 1: Because I may suggest that there was some illegal activity involved,

1045
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: but I don't. I'm not saying it was that. You

1046
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 1: don't know that that was I don't know that. I appreciate.

1047
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 1: I appreciate, but but what I what I what I

1048
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 1: what I suspect, and this is purely suspicious and has

1049
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: absolutely no basis in fact. And as far as I know,

1050
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 1: the guy who killed it's good to his mother and

1051
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 1: everything else, and the mother and the guy he hunted

1052
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 1: with the professional hunter was was also loves his mother.

1053
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 1: And the African guy who's property they shot it on,

1054
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 1: which was which abuts the park he is, he is,

1055
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: the salt of the earth. That was private property. So

1056
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 1: that was the dude's land. Yeah, I believe, Well, it's

1057
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 1: it's up now you have me there, because I'm not

1058
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: really sure there was there was some question about who

1059
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: had who had the permit, and it's kind of it's

1060
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 1: kind of that part you're getting. You're getting to the

1061
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: weeds on this one. But the reason I I think,

1062
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 1: in my own opinion and without knowing if this guy

1063
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: get anything wrong, is that if that lion was what

1064
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 1: appears to me to be rather cheap, it was because

1065
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: they knew where that lion was and they didn't have

1066
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time hunting it. You know

1067
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: that that if they had to go, if you had

1068
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: to go to Tanzania tomorrow and hunt a and now

1069
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: you gotta remember in Tanzania, you have to your line.

1070
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: The lion has to be you have to age the

1071
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 1: line on the on the hoof, as it were. So

1072
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, what's six years old or older. You can't

1073
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 1: take anything younger than that and anymore in Tanzania by law,

1074
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 1: you know. And if you actually went to Tanzania looking

1075
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:46,960
Speaker 1: for a lion like that and in the wild and

1076
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: everything else like that, you could be there hunting a month.

1077
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 1: You know, you could be there and you could spend

1078
01:05:55,000 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So because what because of the rarity of nothing,

1079
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 1: because of the hard hunt. It's a hard hunt. You know.

1080
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 1: It's like it's like shooting a four hundred point boil

1081
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: in the mountains if it was about a month, because

1082
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: it might take ten years of a month, you know,

1083
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's yeah. And and from what I

1084
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 1: understand of this situation was the they didn' hunt him

1085
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: that long and then and then a crossbow. He shot

1086
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 1: it with a crossbow. I got nothing against crossbows, but

1087
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: you feel that it might have an annoyance factor. No,

1088
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, No, I don't I will go that far.

1089
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 1: I think I think it was. It was it was

1090
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 1: part of the you know, the spree of the whole

1091
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 1: thing it was. I'm gonna add my own little twist

1092
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: to this by hunting in with a crossbow. Um, but

1093
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. But I don't know that. I don't

1094
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 1: know any Can I add two things here? Because I

1095
01:06:57,320 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: I think about this almost I think about this bi

1096
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 1: weekly at least. No. Why moving into the perception of it,

1097
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 1: why do Americans get mad when they hear that someone

1098
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 1: paid a lot for something? And it's puzzling to me

1099
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 1: for this reason. If we look at the history of colonialism,

1100
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: it generally is can you go into a country and

1101
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,320
Speaker 1: you take valuable ship and don't pay anyone for it

1102
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: and take it back home. So here's a system where

1103
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 1: a feller, even though as your point out, may have underpaid,

1104
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 1: he goes in and he pays an outrages some for

1105
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 1: a thing that he would like to remove from the land,

1106
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 1: and that is more offensive to Americans than had he

1107
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 1: just gone and stolen it. Well, I would think that

1108
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: people would be like, well, at least the son of

1109
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: a bitch gave him fifty dollars. But people get pissed

1110
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: about the money. They're like, he paid two or fifty

1111
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 1: thou dollars to kill a rhino that it's asshole. Ish

1112
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 1: A real a better guy wouldn't have paid ship maybe,

1113
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 1: I mean, but that's kind of what you're saying. Well, no,

1114
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 1: that's why I like, why is that upsetting? Well? You

1115
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 1: know what, why do we why do we get piste

1116
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 1: off when we see people you know, with with with

1117
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 1: you know, rolls Racism't blink because you're jealous, because you're

1118
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 1: jealous because you I wish i'd been born I wish

1119
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 1: I'd been born rich instead of good looking, you know.

1120
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: I mean. I had a friend of mine who always

1121
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,720
Speaker 1: complained about the factors of Mississippi, and he had, you know,

1122
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:38,720
Speaker 1: kind of like worked his way up in the the

1123
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 1: upper echelons. But there was a point in his life

1124
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:42,240
Speaker 1: he said, you know, if I had as much money

1125
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:44,240
Speaker 1: as that son of a bitch over there, I'd make

1126
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 1: him look like Ned's first Primmer. Oh, Ned's first Primmer.

1127
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: That's that's that's the book he used to read in

1128
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,640
Speaker 1: the little little schoolhouse that takes you a bc S.

1129
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:55,640
Speaker 1: And it was a good looking guy or not. No, no, no, no, no,

1130
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 1: that's not the whole point, if I understand the point,

1131
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 1: If me, his point was that, um, he was jealous

1132
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:06,720
Speaker 1: of all these other guys who had so much money

1133
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 1: they could hut anything they wanted to in the world,

1134
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:11,960
Speaker 1: you know. And his argument was, if I had that

1135
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:15,160
Speaker 1: kind of money, I would make them look like Ned's

1136
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 1: first primmer, which means that he drowned him in that

1137
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 1: he would he would make them look like amateurs from

1138
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 1: the word go. Can I ask my second question, Yes,

1139
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:29,720
Speaker 1: this didn't occur to me till the other day. Yesterday

1140
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:33,640
Speaker 1: a guy outdoor photographer named John Haffner, who shoots a

1141
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 1: lot of wildlife photography, showed me a picture of a lion,

1142
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 1: a male lion, and he's got a big ass main.

1143
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: John says that line is actually a Collard lion. Where's

1144
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 1: the radio collar? You can't see the damn collar. Yeah,

1145
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 1: he's got a thick ass main. So with the cecil.

1146
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:55,639
Speaker 1: And this is the last thing I then say about season.

1147
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 1: Unless you got more you want to add a big

1148
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 1: part of the story. People were piste. Oh yeah, they

1149
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 1: paid for it. And people were also pissed that it

1150
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 1: had a collar. But I don't know that that would

1151
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:09,439
Speaker 1: have been known. Do you think that that would have

1152
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: been known or not known? Well, yeah, they had to

1153
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 1: cut it off. Because right now and my circumcised or

1154
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 1: not circumcised, I don't know. Well they I mean, I

1155
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 1: mean it was like it was like I was listening

1156
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:20,759
Speaker 1: to the radio coming up here and they're talking about

1157
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 1: some guy in Kentucky. He was on the run because

1158
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,760
Speaker 1: he cut off his ankle bracelet, you know yesterday. Yeah,

1159
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 1: they cut it off after. But is it I mean,

1160
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 1: I mean, if if they knew before they shot it,

1161
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:36,160
Speaker 1: not that that would have mattered. That lion was it

1162
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 1: was cecil for God's people told. I also read a

1163
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 1: lot about this that like that name didn't quite have

1164
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 1: the kid in death. No, no, I understand, No, that's

1165
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:49,799
Speaker 1: that's correct. But there's there's a lot, in my mind,

1166
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:53,559
Speaker 1: at least, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that that

1167
01:10:54,000 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 1: this lion, his fate had been sealed before that the

1168
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 1: hunter ever got to Africa, like a guy's like, you

1169
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 1: know what, a fella could probably lure that island. This

1170
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:10,960
Speaker 1: this there was a phone call to somebody at some

1171
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 1: point and said, I've got this lion over here. I'm

1172
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:19,920
Speaker 1: pretty sure if we you know, we put a dead

1173
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:22,799
Speaker 1: eland or something. And this is not what I'm saying happened.

1174
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying that we can we can get this,

1175
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 1: we can pull this line out of the park. You know,

1176
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 1: that's gonna be the same thing when you know, if

1177
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:33,800
Speaker 1: we get to where we're we can hunt grizzlies down

1178
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 1: south of here. Wherever we hunt again, there's there's gonna be,

1179
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: there's gonna be where do you draw the line? Do you?

1180
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I mean,

1181
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: I would drop that's a part boundary. Maybe maybe that's

1182
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 1: probably where it's gonna be drawn. But I mean, but

1183
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 1: but you know, what difference does it make if you

1184
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,760
Speaker 1: keep pushing it out and you're there's gonna be a

1185
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 1: line somewhere, you know, and I don't. I don't know

1186
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:00,560
Speaker 1: what you know? I that leaves me, you know, I

1187
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:02,639
Speaker 1: probably I don't think I'm gonna be shooting a grizzly,

1188
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 1: So that's fine. I don't. I don't intend to put

1189
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:06,800
Speaker 1: in for a tack. No, I don't either, you know,

1190
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,559
Speaker 1: but I don't. I can see where it would be

1191
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 1: really interesting for some people, and it could be done,

1192
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 1: and it can be done right, you know, But eventually

1193
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 1: it's gonna come down the line. You know, there's a

1194
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 1: line here, a line here, where do you you know?

1195
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 1: So I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, when that

1196
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:27,720
Speaker 1: was playing out, this this is the honestly the last question.

1197
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,720
Speaker 1: When that was playing out, let me preface it by this.

1198
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 1: A friend of mine did many tours in Iraq and

1199
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 1: Afghanistan in the navy. Okay, now he comes home, gets

1200
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 1: out of the military, and every time something is in

1201
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:53,519
Speaker 1: the news about Iraq Afghanistan, I would go to him

1202
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:56,599
Speaker 1: be like, hey, what do you what's your take on?

1203
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 1: And he said, Now at this point, I read the

1204
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 1: newspaper like anybody else. I don't have like my time

1205
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 1: there doesn't give me the feeling of having like insight,

1206
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:13,800
Speaker 1: It doesn't give me the feeling of like that I'm

1207
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:18,680
Speaker 1: following that story more carefully. Okay, So, if you're a

1208
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:23,719
Speaker 1: guy who's written hundreds of pages about hunting in Africa,

1209
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,680
Speaker 1: when a story like that happens and everyone fires up

1210
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:31,680
Speaker 1: the outrage machine, do you see it as just a

1211
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:34,519
Speaker 1: guy like huh or do you see it as this

1212
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:39,400
Speaker 1: is my realm, my world, my professional space. I must

1213
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:44,920
Speaker 1: interject and give clarity to all the people who are

1214
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 1: who are out looking now or is it just like

1215
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:49,439
Speaker 1: I don't know the guy shot a line I don't know.

1216
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 1: I don't have, UM, I don't know that I feel

1217
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:04,439
Speaker 1: that I can offer an opinion in that sense. You know, UM,

1218
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 1: I know how I feel about these things. I mean,

1219
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:11,600
Speaker 1: I hate to say it, but I mean, but hunting is.

1220
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:19,240
Speaker 1: You know, what's the line about? Um? Again? To quote himingly,

1221
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:21,400
Speaker 1: I guess it is, it's what we have instead of God?

1222
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:26,719
Speaker 1: You know, UM, And I you know, for me, there's

1223
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 1: there's something Hunting is in a way, at least one

1224
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:34,280
Speaker 1: of my religions. If i'm if, I I want to

1225
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 1: consider myself polytheistic, you know. And the older I get,

1226
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,200
Speaker 1: the more I get I get into it, the the

1227
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:46,439
Speaker 1: less I hate seeing piss in the cathedral. That's how

1228
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:48,680
Speaker 1: I feel. That's a good way. You just said that,

1229
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, don't don't go piss in the

1230
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 1: baptismal fountain, you know, UM, all right, But I don't

1231
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 1: know how you teach that. I don't know how you

1232
01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: instruct that. I don't know that how you I mean,

1233
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. And I don't want to be one

1234
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 1: of these these these these crabs who just you know, oh,

1235
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:09,519
Speaker 1: you horrible human being? What you know? You know, if

1236
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 1: you can sleep at night, that's fine. And and you know,

1237
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:15,720
Speaker 1: and if you're if if if if if, if there

1238
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:25,679
Speaker 1: are scientifically based, well enforced laws that make sense, then

1239
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 1: go for it. You know, I don't know that. I mean,

1240
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,719
Speaker 1: I'm not sure where ethics there are ethics. And that's

1241
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 1: and then and we we do as suite, we do

1242
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 1: as hunters, we do bring our we we do have

1243
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:43,040
Speaker 1: an ethical structure that we believe in. You know, just

1244
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 1: because something is legal doesn't mean it's right, you know,

1245
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:52,680
Speaker 1: or moral or ethical. Um. But the elder Leopold, yeah,

1246
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 1: everyd like's the part of the quote where he says, like,

1247
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 1: ethics is what you do when no one's watching. But

1248
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:04,680
Speaker 1: he goes on say even when it's legal. Yeah, you know,

1249
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 1: and and that's but but that is, you know, when

1250
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:13,880
Speaker 1: it's what as a society, we can only enforce the law.

1251
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,320
Speaker 1: Now we can we can try to we can try

1252
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:22,640
Speaker 1: to shape ethics, but that is more of a a

1253
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 1: cultural definition we're putting on things. That's well, Ethics and

1254
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 1: law walk through life hand in hand in many ways, maybe,

1255
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:35,639
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I I think I think there's

1256
01:16:35,680 --> 01:16:39,720
Speaker 1: there's you know, it's yeah, but I don't know, I

1257
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:42,479
Speaker 1: don't I don't know who's who's the handmaiden and who

1258
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:46,720
Speaker 1: is the not you know, I don't understand. I might

1259
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:49,519
Speaker 1: you know who I think. I think that ethics is

1260
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:54,719
Speaker 1: the mother holding the hand the child's hand of law. Yeah,

1261
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 1: except except except except except the law in this case

1262
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:04,600
Speaker 1: is now he's like he's like seven ft three in

1263
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: ways four hundred pounds and has a big mallet. You know,

1264
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 1: you know, I mean we we we can talk about

1265
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:16,679
Speaker 1: what the law is capable of doing to people's lives

1266
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:21,000
Speaker 1: if you you know, um which ethics are not you know, ethics,

1267
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 1: I mean you can you can, you can. I mean ethics,

1268
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:27,479
Speaker 1: ethics shouldn't be able to take away your liberty or

1269
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 1: your freedom. Laws can take away your liberty and your freedom.

1270
01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 1: You know, ethics can shame you. Law can execute you.

1271
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:37,240
Speaker 1: But that's the funny thing because I find that when

1272
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:40,519
Speaker 1: hunters get in trouble. Yeah, when hunters getting trouble, they

1273
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:42,840
Speaker 1: like to and read. Especially in the last couple of years,

1274
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 1: hunters get in trouble and they like to go. Uh,

1275
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:51,599
Speaker 1: they like to go. But it was legal, and they're

1276
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:53,880
Speaker 1: kind of like people are thinking about one thing and

1277
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 1: they're talking about another thing because they don't do like,

1278
01:17:57,280 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 1: let's like, hey, I have a wife and kids, Okay,

1279
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:03,559
Speaker 1: so let's say it. He merged that, uh, at night,

1280
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 1: I would sneak out and just go have sex with

1281
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 1: women in bars that I met in bars. Later, someone's like, dude,

1282
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:18,960
Speaker 1: did you hear can you believe his wife at home

1283
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: taking care of those kids? And he's out like is

1284
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 1: there room for me to go? But it's legal? Yeah,

1285
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 1: yeah it is. No one no one doubted the no

1286
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:32,559
Speaker 1: one cares that it was legal, and and and and

1287
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 1: no one's like, oh yeah, my bad. Cool. But that's

1288
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 1: but that again, I mean, there there isn't There isn't

1289
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 1: any way of that I know of, uh, you know,

1290
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 1: of persuading a sociopath that or a narcissist, because what

1291
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 1: you're talking about his narcissism and and and and you know,

1292
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 1: social sociopathology. It's not criminal, but it sure makes life

1293
01:18:57,240 --> 01:19:02,640
Speaker 1: hell for everybody around you know what I mean? You know,

1294
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 1: I mean it's like it's like it's like, you know,

1295
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:07,000
Speaker 1: if if if a guy's cheating on his wife, he's

1296
01:19:07,040 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 1: making it hell for her. He's not breaking the law. Though.

1297
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:14,000
Speaker 1: That's where community comes in, and so and social and culture.

1298
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:17,479
Speaker 1: So it's and it's but it's you know, but even

1299
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:21,519
Speaker 1: you would think that it would be something internalized in

1300
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,200
Speaker 1: the human being that he would it would come to

1301
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 1: him at some point in going. You know, I am

1302
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:30,639
Speaker 1: a dog. I am a two dick dog who should

1303
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 1: be shot. Well for taking it back to the example

1304
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:36,800
Speaker 1: of like of hunting, I see like that can be

1305
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:41,799
Speaker 1: like hyper like local and like it's across the country.

1306
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:45,519
Speaker 1: Imagine like there's different social norms in like Alabama than

1307
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:48,559
Speaker 1: there are in Idaho. Right, So I think it comes

1308
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:54,640
Speaker 1: back to ethics and your community almost holding you accountable.

1309
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 1: And I'm a big proponent of that. And I love

1310
01:19:57,080 --> 01:19:59,919
Speaker 1: thinking about the ethics of hunting because it's so interchange.

1311
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 1: Um it's it's I mean, I mean, what are what

1312
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 1: are the ethics of hunting raccoons with hounds in California

1313
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:10,600
Speaker 1: versus the ethics of hunting raccoons with hounds and Tennessee?

1314
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:17,479
Speaker 1: You know, all right? Uh, you know, I I blew

1315
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:19,839
Speaker 1: this because earlier I used this, I mentioned this quote,

1316
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:23,800
Speaker 1: Uh that you quote. I can't remember who's the true No, Yeah,

1317
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:26,400
Speaker 1: the Hemingway quote where someone's like where he says, you know,

1318
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:28,320
Speaker 1: we should go hunting Africa, and he's like, I got

1319
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:29,960
Speaker 1: no desires. It's just because you haven't read a book

1320
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 1: about it. Reading the book, I've decided I'm real interested

1321
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:41,320
Speaker 1: in Uh. I've adopted your favorite animal as my favorite

1322
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:44,400
Speaker 1: animal to hunt. Can you talk about the wet like

1323
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:48,880
Speaker 1: Kate buffalo? How it is that that in your mind

1324
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:55,360
Speaker 1: is like that in your mind is like the animal?

1325
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:59,519
Speaker 1: And earlier you were gonna I think you started to

1326
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:02,400
Speaker 1: say something and got distracted. You canna say that when

1327
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:05,880
Speaker 1: you hunt, you're a surrogate right for the people you're with.

1328
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:07,880
Speaker 1: And I thought that at that point you were going

1329
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:11,960
Speaker 1: to point out that you you get excitement from what

1330
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 1: excites them. Well, yeah, that's in fact, Well okay, that's

1331
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:20,439
Speaker 1: so talk about. I mean, I mean you can you

1332
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:24,840
Speaker 1: can get a sense where you know certain animals, you know,

1333
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:27,840
Speaker 1: if if if you take it i Paula, if you

1334
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:30,240
Speaker 1: hunt it in Paula, and then and you make a

1335
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:34,760
Speaker 1: you know, reputable, you know, good shot, it's clean kill,

1336
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:37,160
Speaker 1: and they have meat for camp. You know they're gonna

1337
01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:42,320
Speaker 1: come up and they're gonna go congratulations. The difference between

1338
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:45,559
Speaker 1: that and if you have to if you bring down

1339
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:49,720
Speaker 1: a buffalo with one shot the the the effusiveness of

1340
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:52,920
Speaker 1: their response is going to be for one thing, They're

1341
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:55,880
Speaker 1: not gonna have to follow a wounded buffalo into the bush,

1342
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:57,920
Speaker 1: you know, which they do not want to do, which

1343
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:01,200
Speaker 1: nobody is right mind wants to do. There are some

1344
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:05,280
Speaker 1: people in their wrong minds who do. But so, yeah, no,

1345
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:10,040
Speaker 1: there is that. I mean, you know they I can

1346
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:13,160
Speaker 1: look at an ant well, I Africans never get bored

1347
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:17,519
Speaker 1: hunting a buffalo. They never get blase about hunting a

1348
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 1: buffalo because of the risk, because of lots of reasons,

1349
01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:23,719
Speaker 1: you know, they have. They have this sort of ultimate

1350
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:29,720
Speaker 1: respect for a buffalo. You know. They there's again it

1351
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:33,200
Speaker 1: it it becomes very difficult to you know, what is it.

1352
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:36,240
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. You know. It's like it's like it's

1353
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:39,559
Speaker 1: like it's like pornography. I know it when I see it.

1354
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's who wasn't that said that Justice

1355
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:51,519
Speaker 1: Potter Stewart um They that there is something about, you know,

1356
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:53,719
Speaker 1: when you're hunting a buffalo, that this is an animal

1357
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:56,960
Speaker 1: and I I it's you know, you have them, you

1358
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:00,599
Speaker 1: have the advantage what they weigh about fifty hundred pounds

1359
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:09,320
Speaker 1: six pounds, you know, and they can run pretty good clip.

1360
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 1: The other part of it is is I've gotten older,

1361
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:13,439
Speaker 1: and you know, I think more in terms of the

1362
01:23:13,479 --> 01:23:19,040
Speaker 1: fact that there's so much meat. That's how people get

1363
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:21,519
Speaker 1: excited about him too. That's that's part of it, you know,

1364
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:24,320
Speaker 1: it's it's it's there, there is, there is the reward

1365
01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:28,599
Speaker 1: of hunting buffalo well is in and of itself hunting

1366
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:32,200
Speaker 1: buffalo well that that you know, you didn't mess it up.

1367
01:23:32,680 --> 01:23:35,640
Speaker 1: You didn't you didn't cause a scene, you didn't there

1368
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:37,599
Speaker 1: was there was no you didn't cause a traffic accident

1369
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:40,080
Speaker 1: in the middle of wherever you were, you know. And

1370
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 1: then when meaning wooning one and meaning wounding and then

1371
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:45,680
Speaker 1: nothing and everything goes to and it's and it just

1372
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:48,200
Speaker 1: worse comes to worse and it just gets worse. But

1373
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 1: you experienced that, yeah, sure, you know, and never had

1374
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:59,720
Speaker 1: anything where it was I was ever really threatened, but I,

1375
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:02,839
Speaker 1: you know, spend a lot of time trailing a wounded

1376
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:07,400
Speaker 1: animal that I really didn't feel very good about having caused.

1377
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 1: You know. One of the things you say you like

1378
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:13,639
Speaker 1: so much about it is that you have to follow

1379
01:24:13,680 --> 01:24:16,760
Speaker 1: him into the thick ship. Yeah, And it's like a

1380
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:21,920
Speaker 1: very it's you're not choosing to have it be close.

1381
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:24,960
Speaker 1: It just has the wind up being closed. Yeah, I

1382
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 1: mean you you you you basically you want to be

1383
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:29,680
Speaker 1: as close as you can get. You know, what's what's

1384
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:31,439
Speaker 1: the what's the there's the old there's the old saying,

1385
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:33,960
Speaker 1: the old adage. And you get absolutely as close as

1386
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:37,160
Speaker 1: you can and get a hundred yards closer. Yeah, and

1387
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:39,720
Speaker 1: and you know, and you you could be you know

1388
01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:41,760
Speaker 1: when you want you don't want to be. That's an

1389
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:45,400
Speaker 1: adage for hunting, Kate buffalo, Yeah, any dangerous game. I

1390
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 1: remember it was its point there where you had someone

1391
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:51,400
Speaker 1: at two d yards You're like, uh yeah, it's not

1392
01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:55,200
Speaker 1: that's that's that's shooting and nut hunting if you know

1393
01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:56,400
Speaker 1: what I mean. I mean you can you can kill

1394
01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:58,799
Speaker 1: a buffalo two hundred yards. You cat buffo three hundred yards,

1395
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, and and and why but what what makes

1396
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:11,559
Speaker 1: it then hunting at well, I mean it's like it's

1397
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,120
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, well it's like anything else. You're you're

1398
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:17,360
Speaker 1: giving him you know, you're not you're not throwing away

1399
01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:20,759
Speaker 1: your advantage, but you're giving him more play for his senses.

1400
01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:24,400
Speaker 1: You're getting him more of a chance of of of

1401
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:27,200
Speaker 1: of what do They English call it twigging to you,

1402
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, discovering that you're they're smelling you, so you're

1403
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:32,360
Speaker 1: not trailed them into the brush because that's how you

1404
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:34,559
Speaker 1: gotta find them. You're doing it because it's an act

1405
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:37,800
Speaker 1: of respect to the animal. No, you're you're you're going in.

1406
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 1: I mean, that's where they are, that's where they that's

1407
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 1: that's their turf, you know, that's their beach, their wave,

1408
01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:46,439
Speaker 1: that's where they live. You know. The you can find

1409
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:52,320
Speaker 1: herds out in the middle of a big open planes um,

1410
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:57,320
Speaker 1: passing through, passing through, but you know you'll at some

1411
01:25:57,360 --> 01:26:00,240
Speaker 1: point you'll end up having to go into the into

1412
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:06,559
Speaker 1: the trees and look for him. And that's unnerving, you

1413
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:10,639
Speaker 1: know it. It starts out that way and then I mean,

1414
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:13,599
Speaker 1: this sounds then you use that up, you use that up,

1415
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:15,719
Speaker 1: and then it becomes like, I want to do this again,

1416
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I you know, I mean when

1417
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 1: I first started on Buffalo, they scared the crap out

1418
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:23,519
Speaker 1: of me, you know, because we couldn't see them. They

1419
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 1: were just in this you know, You're just crawling in

1420
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,080
Speaker 1: after him, and then they would all of a sudden

1421
01:26:30,080 --> 01:26:33,680
Speaker 1: you'd hear this, like just this massive explosion of animals,

1422
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:35,680
Speaker 1: and you'd hear the you know, you hear there they

1423
01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:38,120
Speaker 1: got those big bosses on their horns at big horn

1424
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:40,800
Speaker 1: cap and you hear them smacking into the trees and

1425
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 1: coming through there, you know, and which which way are

1426
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:45,400
Speaker 1: they going? You know? Are they coming at me? Are

1427
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:51,360
Speaker 1: they going away? And uh? But just they're they're they're,

1428
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:54,519
Speaker 1: they're just they're they're just going. Yeah, they've dropped their

1429
01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:57,040
Speaker 1: heads and they're going. But I mean, just out of

1430
01:26:57,040 --> 01:27:00,680
Speaker 1: the blue. They're feeding one. They've they've they've caught your

1431
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:03,799
Speaker 1: wind or they've heard they've heard you snap a twig,

1432
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:07,040
Speaker 1: and you know you've got and you've got like twenty

1433
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:09,679
Speaker 1: or thirty of them all together. So you've got twenty

1434
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:11,880
Speaker 1: or thirty sets of eyes, and twenty or thirty sets

1435
01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:14,840
Speaker 1: of years, and twenty or thirty sets of noses. So

1436
01:27:14,880 --> 01:27:16,599
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, you ever watched you every nose

1437
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:19,559
Speaker 1: like a white tail and and uh and and turkeys

1438
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:22,599
Speaker 1: are always together. And I figured that out was because

1439
01:27:22,600 --> 01:27:25,880
Speaker 1: turkeys can't smell, and white tail can't see as well

1440
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:29,200
Speaker 1: as turkeys can't, but they know how to trigger off

1441
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:32,040
Speaker 1: with each other. Anyway, leave that there, because you talked

1442
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:35,080
Speaker 1: about that bird all the time it lifts up. Yeah, yeah,

1443
01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:37,120
Speaker 1: the tick bird. You see that tick bird. You know

1444
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:39,519
Speaker 1: that there's some and you also thought about that. You

1445
01:27:39,520 --> 01:27:42,760
Speaker 1: could creep in there and get thirty yards away and

1446
01:27:42,760 --> 01:27:45,479
Speaker 1: there's a pound animal on its feet looking at you,

1447
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:49,639
Speaker 1: and you might not catch it. Yeah, yeah, you might

1448
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,719
Speaker 1: not detect it. The guy I was telling you about,

1449
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:55,400
Speaker 1: the old guy who taught me how to who I

1450
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,679
Speaker 1: got my inherited my love of Africa from I guess,

1451
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:02,439
Speaker 1: but I mean the first elephant he ever took was

1452
01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:07,439
Speaker 1: in French Equatorial Africa ninety six or something, and he

1453
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:10,679
Speaker 1: and the tracker because the professional hunter gotten sick, got malaria,

1454
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:12,679
Speaker 1: so he went with the tracker, just team the tracker

1455
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:16,160
Speaker 1: and they're hunting elephants. And he said he'd never seen

1456
01:28:16,160 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 1: an elephant in the wild at all. And they were

1457
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:21,639
Speaker 1: crawling in through the forest, I mean crawling hands and knees,

1458
01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:24,479
Speaker 1: and and the tracker like you know, grabbed him and

1459
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:26,640
Speaker 1: he said there, you know there, And he's looking and

1460
01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:29,679
Speaker 1: looking and looking. He can't see anything, and he's looking

1461
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,080
Speaker 1: back and forth and the guys keep keeps pointing, and

1462
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:35,759
Speaker 1: suddenly he sees thirty feet in front of him four legs,

1463
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:39,679
Speaker 1: you know, and they look like they look like big

1464
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:42,559
Speaker 1: tree trunks. And he then he keeps looking up and

1465
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:44,760
Speaker 1: up and up, and there's this there's his head, you know,

1466
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:47,719
Speaker 1: kind of like just in there, you know, pulling stuff

1467
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:50,360
Speaker 1: off the branches. And he said that was his first

1468
01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:53,800
Speaker 1: elephant he'd ever seen anywhere in the wild. But that's

1469
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:59,519
Speaker 1: kind of what happens with buffalo. You can't find him

1470
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 1: like any untrained game. I yeah, well, I mean that's

1471
01:29:03,439 --> 01:29:05,439
Speaker 1: and that's the thing about you know, that's you know,

1472
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:08,400
Speaker 1: that's like I say that you know, these trackers are

1473
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:13,280
Speaker 1: you know, like there and you're going like where you know,

1474
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:16,559
Speaker 1: when they go there, and and they just you know,

1475
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:21,919
Speaker 1: they just know where it is they And that's that's inborn.

1476
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:24,640
Speaker 1: That's innate. I don't know, it's it's it's it's a

1477
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:29,320
Speaker 1: wonderful mystery. How do you how do you? I want

1478
01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:31,080
Speaker 1: to see how you cope with something or how you

1479
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:37,400
Speaker 1: perceive something when you when you hunt. There a lot uh,

1480
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:39,160
Speaker 1: this could be true for anyone who does like a

1481
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:44,400
Speaker 1: lot of guided honey, Okay, where like like I look

1482
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 1: at hunting as being a thing where you sort of

1483
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:50,960
Speaker 1: um quite like it's just it's just never ending thing

1484
01:29:51,040 --> 01:29:54,759
Speaker 1: of like the act with like acquiring skills, okay, developing

1485
01:29:54,760 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 1: a skill set, and no one knows the end of it. Right,

1486
01:30:00,400 --> 01:30:03,479
Speaker 1: There's no there's no cap there's no arrival moment. Right.

1487
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:09,160
Speaker 1: In fact, the more you climb, the more you become

1488
01:30:09,160 --> 01:30:10,920
Speaker 1: aware of the lack of a ceiling. There's no ceiling.

1489
01:30:11,200 --> 01:30:13,160
Speaker 1: I think early on you could feel that it was there,

1490
01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 1: but it's not there. And I find that if you're

1491
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:22,280
Speaker 1: not brought up doing it um, it creates a separate

1492
01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:25,320
Speaker 1: it creates a cap to like it's hard to come

1493
01:30:25,320 --> 01:30:30,560
Speaker 1: in late and climb very high. Yeah, but in Africa,

1494
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:38,839
Speaker 1: I feel that that open that that that unachievable ceiling

1495
01:30:39,120 --> 01:30:42,720
Speaker 1: probably doesn't really seem to be there because you have

1496
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:46,920
Speaker 1: so much infrastructure around you that's invested in you getting it,

1497
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:48,960
Speaker 1: and it would almost be that you would one would

1498
01:30:48,960 --> 01:30:52,400
Speaker 1: feel if if you were a hunter, you would feel like,

1499
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 1: I'm not bringing anything to this. In fact, I'm slowing

1500
01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:01,480
Speaker 1: this whole thing down like you are. You are the impediment.

1501
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:07,479
Speaker 1: They would get this done faster and more efficiently were

1502
01:31:07,479 --> 01:31:10,960
Speaker 1: it not for my presence. Hand them the gun, let them.

1503
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:15,360
Speaker 1: So how do you cope with that? Well, you know

1504
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:20,559
Speaker 1: it's it's it's an imperfect world. Um, you know. I

1505
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:23,719
Speaker 1: mean if if in a different time, at a different age,

1506
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:26,040
Speaker 1: you were born in Africa. You know, a lot of

1507
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:30,080
Speaker 1: these professional hunters were born growing up in the bush,

1508
01:31:30,400 --> 01:31:33,920
Speaker 1: you know, and they hunted for their families and for themselves,

1509
01:31:34,320 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 1: so they learned it that way. I guess, I guess

1510
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:40,920
Speaker 1: I could look at it in that regard and say, well,

1511
01:31:44,200 --> 01:31:48,120
Speaker 1: I'm not bringing everything to the game. I am, But

1512
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:50,840
Speaker 1: does that mean I don't want to do something that

1513
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:55,519
Speaker 1: I have come to love? So I don't know. I mean,

1514
01:31:55,560 --> 01:32:02,360
Speaker 1: it's it's the you know, I mean, you know, the

1515
01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:05,640
Speaker 1: satisfaction of like hutting something on your own and you know,

1516
01:32:06,240 --> 01:32:09,000
Speaker 1: I go in there, you've got you. I know both statisfacts.

1517
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:11,360
Speaker 1: I know that statisfaction, and I know the satisfaction of

1518
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:16,320
Speaker 1: making a friend who does something really well and then

1519
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 1: your friend takes you out and lets you be along

1520
01:32:19,120 --> 01:32:24,639
Speaker 1: with him and the thrill of that's, you know, if

1521
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:29,960
Speaker 1: you can get to that stage with Africans, And that

1522
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:31,559
Speaker 1: to me is I don't know a better way of

1523
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:33,880
Speaker 1: doing that. I've I've never found a better way. Maybe

1524
01:32:33,880 --> 01:32:36,000
Speaker 1: there is one that I don't know about at least

1525
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:39,360
Speaker 1: that I've experienced. I mean, when you get to the

1526
01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:41,400
Speaker 1: point where when you know, when you have done something

1527
01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:46,519
Speaker 1: that a bunch of African hunters trackers look at you

1528
01:32:46,560 --> 01:32:51,120
Speaker 1: and go, you know, give your thumbs up, it's you know,

1529
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:54,479
Speaker 1: it's golden because you know when it's Jameson. I don't

1530
01:32:54,479 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 1: want you to think that I'm saying that I don't know. No,

1531
01:32:56,600 --> 01:32:58,560
Speaker 1: I don't go. I do go into those situations. No,

1532
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:00,679
Speaker 1: but I'm just I'm just saying. I'm just saying it's

1533
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:04,000
Speaker 1: and you know the difference when it's genuine when it's

1534
01:33:05,080 --> 01:33:09,320
Speaker 1: perfunctory or performed performer. You know, I'm the tractor, I'm

1535
01:33:09,320 --> 01:33:13,080
Speaker 1: supposed to tell this guy, you know, good job, wanna

1536
01:33:13,439 --> 01:33:16,120
Speaker 1: But when when they sincerely do it and honestly do it,

1537
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:19,880
Speaker 1: you know you've earned that from them. That's like, you know,

1538
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:23,000
Speaker 1: it's a great sensation, it's a great feeling. And I

1539
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 1: think I think that's I think some people would think

1540
01:33:25,479 --> 01:33:27,519
Speaker 1: that needing that that that not I don't want to

1541
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:31,559
Speaker 1: say needing. I think that some people would think that

1542
01:33:33,320 --> 01:33:37,920
Speaker 1: basking in that approval it's childish, but I do not

1543
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:41,640
Speaker 1: because I do like that. Well, there are ways there

1544
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:45,000
Speaker 1: are always like there are always there like calibrate one's

1545
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:48,240
Speaker 1: performance and and to have and to do things and

1546
01:33:48,280 --> 01:33:52,880
Speaker 1: be in a atmosphere of other people and to get

1547
01:33:52,920 --> 01:33:55,960
Speaker 1: to a point where other people are like, job well done.

1548
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:57,840
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, No, I mean it's it's when you're

1549
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:04,320
Speaker 1: when you're when you move one tenth as quietly as

1550
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:09,000
Speaker 1: an African and stay up with them, you know, going

1551
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:13,240
Speaker 1: through the bush, that that comes back to you. You You

1552
01:34:13,320 --> 01:34:16,559
Speaker 1: get there's a there's a feedback loop in that where

1553
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:19,000
Speaker 1: you you get that energy and your feed on it.

1554
01:34:19,400 --> 01:34:23,120
Speaker 1: Did you feel like over the years that did you

1555
01:34:23,120 --> 01:34:25,960
Speaker 1: feel like you learned a lot? Yeah? Or just it

1556
01:34:26,040 --> 01:34:29,439
Speaker 1: was it like mostly having experiences or was it learning too?

1557
01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:35,000
Speaker 1: It's always learning. I mean I always have learned. I've

1558
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:37,120
Speaker 1: tried to learn no matter where I was. You know,

1559
01:34:37,560 --> 01:34:39,160
Speaker 1: I want to I want to talk to the people.

1560
01:34:39,200 --> 01:34:40,559
Speaker 1: I want to know what they're doing. I want to

1561
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:44,559
Speaker 1: know you know whatever. I don't know where I if

1562
01:34:44,600 --> 01:34:45,760
Speaker 1: it's I don't think it's in the book. By was

1563
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 1: just writing something the other day about you know, going

1564
01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:54,280
Speaker 1: to places, going to how you go? Why would I

1565
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:58,280
Speaker 1: hunt in Africa instead of going on a photos so far?

1566
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:01,920
Speaker 1: Okay um and there's nothing wrong with going on the

1567
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:05,639
Speaker 1: photos sopharsis. But but I suddenly realized that the people

1568
01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:10,160
Speaker 1: I am dealing with in a in a you know,

1569
01:35:10,200 --> 01:35:14,680
Speaker 1: a photo lodge situation, these are people who are in

1570
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:17,880
Speaker 1: the service industry. Now, you could argue that trackers are

1571
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:20,000
Speaker 1: not in the service and are are also in the

1572
01:35:20,040 --> 01:35:22,800
Speaker 1: service industry. That's not a very good argument. But I'm

1573
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:25,639
Speaker 1: just saying, but I'm just saying, you know that there

1574
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:31,960
Speaker 1: is that it's a different relationship from where I am.

1575
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:34,120
Speaker 1: You know, when a guy's hovering around me one and off,

1576
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:36,080
Speaker 1: if I can he can you know, if he can,

1577
01:35:36,160 --> 01:35:37,760
Speaker 1: if he can pour me some more wine and get

1578
01:35:37,760 --> 01:35:42,240
Speaker 1: a bigger tip. Yeah, And and whereas if I'm dealing

1579
01:35:42,320 --> 01:35:44,960
Speaker 1: with a tracker, you know where where he'll he'll stop

1580
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:46,320
Speaker 1: and he'll point to the track of will and we'll

1581
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:48,800
Speaker 1: we'll try to we'll try to figure it out. You know,

1582
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:51,120
Speaker 1: what are we you know, what are we looking for here?

1583
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:54,679
Speaker 1: You know? And and it's all there's a bad there's

1584
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:57,719
Speaker 1: it's it, there's there is there is a language barrier

1585
01:35:57,800 --> 01:36:01,720
Speaker 1: that just disappears. Yeah, that doesn't you know, And he

1586
01:36:01,720 --> 01:36:06,080
Speaker 1: doesn't speak English, I don't speak Swanna or or or

1587
01:36:06,200 --> 01:36:11,640
Speaker 1: or cuckoo you or something else. But we communicate, we

1588
01:36:11,720 --> 01:36:15,080
Speaker 1: understand each other, and that's like just yeah, I mean

1589
01:36:15,200 --> 01:36:17,600
Speaker 1: just I don't know, I'm certain to get you know.

1590
01:36:18,680 --> 01:36:23,559
Speaker 1: It's it's it's hard not to get nostalgic about it.

1591
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:28,360
Speaker 1: What about that nostalgy because I guess that like even

1592
01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 1: the name I feel like the name of your book,

1593
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:36,600
Speaker 1: like having the Autumn's right, there's a kind there's a

1594
01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:42,280
Speaker 1: a does a well do you feel like like is

1595
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:44,680
Speaker 1: it done? You? Like if I like I could, I

1596
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:48,160
Speaker 1: could rattle loss and stuff. No, I mean, it's it's

1597
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:52,320
Speaker 1: it's like it's I'm going back in January. I'm gonna

1598
01:36:52,320 --> 01:36:55,519
Speaker 1: go to Burkina Fossa. And and the reason I'm going

1599
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:59,920
Speaker 1: to Burkina Fossil is there's a there's a relatively small

1600
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:06,719
Speaker 1: area like two hundred fifty hectars or something that's really

1601
01:37:06,760 --> 01:37:10,240
Speaker 1: wild country. There's elephants and lions there walking around, there's

1602
01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:13,839
Speaker 1: no fences, and there's a different buffalo, there's the savannah buffalo.

1603
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:15,320
Speaker 1: So I'm I want to go back. I want to

1604
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:19,439
Speaker 1: hunt two animals. That's it. I want to hunt the

1605
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:23,800
Speaker 1: savannah buffalo in the western room and the western rhone

1606
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:25,519
Speaker 1: is like, I mean, it's it's you know, it's it's

1607
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:28,240
Speaker 1: it's kind of like it's like a really mean white tail.

1608
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:33,280
Speaker 1: It's a really it's a disgruntled white tail because they're

1609
01:37:33,360 --> 01:37:36,480
Speaker 1: very smart and they love to and they're just beautiful animals,

1610
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:40,800
Speaker 1: wonderful eating. I I don't know. Again, I'm gonna people

1611
01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:43,400
Speaker 1: don't really pay much attention to it. I mean, but

1612
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:48,880
Speaker 1: the game meets great. Does anything in the Africa have antlers? Ah?

1613
01:37:49,040 --> 01:37:52,800
Speaker 1: You know, you know, actually the giraffes are pedicels, which

1614
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 1: are not they're kind of proto h antlers. And there

1615
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:03,880
Speaker 1: are red deer in nor southern Africa. You know, the

1616
01:38:04,160 --> 01:38:07,760
Speaker 1: Barbary red deer is native native. You don't surprise me.

1617
01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 1: You talk about hunting SEUs scraf yep, you talk about

1618
01:38:13,160 --> 01:38:16,120
Speaker 1: hunting wild pigs in Africa. I didn't know in the

1619
01:38:15,840 --> 01:38:19,800
Speaker 1: in the in northern Africa they have straight up wild hog.

1620
01:38:19,920 --> 01:38:27,400
Speaker 1: Yeah it sounds like a shipload up. Yeah blocks in Tunisia. Yeah,

1621
01:38:27,720 --> 01:38:32,080
Speaker 1: it's there, and they're they're all over the place. But

1622
01:38:33,200 --> 01:38:35,799
Speaker 1: I point out to people about like autumns in Africa,

1623
01:38:35,960 --> 01:38:43,800
Speaker 1: like August and Africa. Oh, I said, Autumn's earlier August Arica. Uh,

1624
01:38:44,120 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 1: but you go a lot of other months. Yeah, but

1625
01:38:46,840 --> 01:38:49,360
Speaker 1: that's it's it's not it's it's it's a it's a

1626
01:38:49,600 --> 01:38:56,120
Speaker 1: it's a figurative time, you know. It's it's when I

1627
01:38:56,240 --> 01:38:58,880
Speaker 1: first in fact, the first time went that guys went there,

1628
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:01,120
Speaker 1: the first time I was it was a member. But

1629
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:03,519
Speaker 1: there is a there's a you know, there's an August

1630
01:39:03,560 --> 01:39:07,320
Speaker 1: feel to it. You know, it's it's especially growing up

1631
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:09,800
Speaker 1: in like southern California, you know, you get that kind

1632
01:39:09,840 --> 01:39:14,479
Speaker 1: of late August weather in the climate, and that's kind

1633
01:39:14,479 --> 01:39:16,800
Speaker 1: of what you're running into in in Africa when you're

1634
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:20,479
Speaker 1: there sometimes, you know, it can feel like that, and uh,

1635
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:24,280
Speaker 1: it's it's it's more a metaphorical time than it is

1636
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:30,799
Speaker 1: an actual calendar date. Yea conjures a bit of romance

1637
01:39:30,840 --> 01:39:33,000
Speaker 1: and nostalgia. Like well, there's a quote on the cover

1638
01:39:33,160 --> 01:39:35,559
Speaker 1: by from Robert Rourke, which is you know that that

1639
01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:37,360
Speaker 1: that's when they burn the they burn the grass and

1640
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:39,799
Speaker 1: July and the good hunt, the decent hunting starts in August,

1641
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:42,320
Speaker 1: which in the one little part of Africa he hunted.

1642
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:44,759
Speaker 1: You know, that's something about Hanyway to I mean, Hennyway

1643
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:47,519
Speaker 1: didn't really never he never got to East Africa, Worke

1644
01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:50,400
Speaker 1: never got out of East Africa pretty much never got

1645
01:39:50,400 --> 01:39:58,880
Speaker 1: out of now. So how much have like, okay, take

1646
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:05,679
Speaker 1: it for granted, that is it's a gradual decline like that,

1647
01:40:05,600 --> 01:40:08,559
Speaker 1: there's a gradual decline of wild places in the world.

1648
01:40:08,560 --> 01:40:11,439
Speaker 1: That's just like a way to explain world history, Okay,

1649
01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:14,960
Speaker 1: the peopling of the world. So taken outside of just

1650
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:20,760
Speaker 1: that general gradual thing that happens, how much are how

1651
01:40:20,840 --> 01:40:26,400
Speaker 1: much are the good old days here or not here?

1652
01:40:26,479 --> 01:40:29,080
Speaker 1: Because I oftentimes find myself when I'm talking about hunting

1653
01:40:29,080 --> 01:40:35,280
Speaker 1: in America, I try to remind people that, um, depending

1654
01:40:35,280 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 1: on how like how your how wide your net is

1655
01:40:39,320 --> 01:40:42,479
Speaker 1: that there's a pretty good argument to be made that

1656
01:40:42,520 --> 01:40:44,880
Speaker 1: we're in the good old days right now. Well, sure, yeah,

1657
01:40:45,120 --> 01:40:48,639
Speaker 1: and you and you have a different you know again,

1658
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:51,240
Speaker 1: we we have we have the luxury or the or

1659
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:55,759
Speaker 1: the benefit of you know, the greatest conservation system wild

1660
01:40:55,840 --> 01:41:00,200
Speaker 1: conservation system in the world. You know, if you look

1661
01:41:00,200 --> 01:41:02,040
Speaker 1: at if you look at other places you're talking about

1662
01:41:02,040 --> 01:41:05,479
Speaker 1: New Zealand and Europe and and you know South Africa,

1663
01:41:05,960 --> 01:41:11,080
Speaker 1: we're we're you know, this is this is this is

1664
01:41:11,120 --> 01:41:14,920
Speaker 1: animal husbandry that's going on in those places South African

1665
01:41:14,960 --> 01:41:18,320
Speaker 1: New Zealand. Well, I mean, yeah, it's animal husbandry on

1666
01:41:18,400 --> 01:41:20,919
Speaker 1: a you know, on a on a with wild animals,

1667
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:27,840
Speaker 1: whereas we actually still have you know, truly wild populations.

1668
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:31,280
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean you know, there's there's more game

1669
01:41:31,360 --> 01:41:34,479
Speaker 1: here than then there was and that and that's a

1670
01:41:34,479 --> 01:41:36,120
Speaker 1: loaded word as well, game, you know what I mean.

1671
01:41:36,120 --> 01:41:38,400
Speaker 1: That's people probably give you a hard time about that word. Yeah,

1672
01:41:38,400 --> 01:41:42,479
Speaker 1: I don't care about Okay, tell me what you really

1673
01:41:42,479 --> 01:41:52,439
Speaker 1: think anyway. Um, but they I don't know what you

1674
01:41:52,479 --> 01:41:57,120
Speaker 1: can say about Africa except that it does continue to decline.

1675
01:41:58,160 --> 01:42:01,360
Speaker 1: And that's I don't know what the solution is. You

1676
01:42:01,400 --> 01:42:05,000
Speaker 1: don't feel that it's a factor of hunting, No, it's

1677
01:42:05,000 --> 01:42:08,400
Speaker 1: a factor of it's a it's a it's it's factors inconvenient,

1678
01:42:08,479 --> 01:42:12,280
Speaker 1: like wildlife is inconvenient, inconvenient and and and taste good.

1679
01:42:12,400 --> 01:42:16,360
Speaker 1: And let's put it this way, that that that you could,

1680
01:42:16,360 --> 01:42:20,599
Speaker 1: you could, you could ban all hunting in Africa tonight,

1681
01:42:22,240 --> 01:42:28,200
Speaker 1: absolutely ban at all legal license hunting, and the populations

1682
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:31,400
Speaker 1: would probably decline even faster just because it would de

1683
01:42:31,479 --> 01:42:34,599
Speaker 1: incentivize There'd be nothing, there'ld be no reason to keep

1684
01:42:34,640 --> 01:42:39,080
Speaker 1: anything around and and it's hard to because no one's

1685
01:42:39,160 --> 01:42:42,839
Speaker 1: making money off its existence. And it's and it's it's

1686
01:42:42,960 --> 01:42:52,920
Speaker 1: you're asking you're asking Africans to support wildlife when they

1687
01:42:52,920 --> 01:42:58,400
Speaker 1: can't in many cases support themselves. Yeah. We we think,

1688
01:42:58,400 --> 01:43:01,639
Speaker 1: we think you should let these las run through your whatever,

1689
01:43:02,640 --> 01:43:06,880
Speaker 1: and they're gonna go why you know, it's like it's like,

1690
01:43:06,920 --> 01:43:08,320
Speaker 1: I mean, if you woke up in the morning and

1691
01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:10,360
Speaker 1: there was and there was and there was a bison

1692
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:14,880
Speaker 1: smashing your super route of shreds, you know, you would

1693
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:19,320
Speaker 1: probably go, oh shooting, yeah, and then somebody, no, you

1694
01:43:19,360 --> 01:43:22,400
Speaker 1: can't do that, don't do that, you can't do that, Okay.

1695
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:25,760
Speaker 1: You'd be like, then someone's gonna have to give you

1696
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:28,840
Speaker 1: a lot of money. Yeah, wells, but nobody's gonna give

1697
01:43:28,840 --> 01:43:31,559
Speaker 1: you any money in Africa. You know, if you if

1698
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 1: you come back and you know someone's destroyed you know,

1699
01:43:34,200 --> 01:43:38,479
Speaker 1: the elephants have destroyed your crops trying to get them. Actually,

1700
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:40,160
Speaker 1: I think one of the big things that's it's making

1701
01:43:40,200 --> 01:43:43,639
Speaker 1: a difference. I mean, the mass Shire are are using

1702
01:43:44,040 --> 01:43:46,160
Speaker 1: they can use cell phones and then call each other

1703
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:49,240
Speaker 1: and they you know, then go elephants are in there

1704
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:51,519
Speaker 1: in the in the maze tonight, you know, and they'll

1705
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:53,640
Speaker 1: run in there and try to chase them out. But

1706
01:43:53,760 --> 01:43:56,679
Speaker 1: that's maybe that's an advantage. But of course the cell

1707
01:43:56,720 --> 01:44:00,880
Speaker 1: phone also helps the poachers. So you know, why is

1708
01:44:00,920 --> 01:44:06,920
Speaker 1: it now? Why does it cost two dollars to kill

1709
01:44:06,920 --> 01:44:10,080
Speaker 1: a rhino? Why does it cost two hundred and fifty

1710
01:44:10,400 --> 01:44:13,559
Speaker 1: dollars to get a governor's permit for a you know,

1711
01:44:13,960 --> 01:44:17,519
Speaker 1: small fur for a sheep small pool? Yeah, you know

1712
01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:19,720
Speaker 1: that there's there is And what are the ones that

1713
01:44:19,760 --> 01:44:22,880
Speaker 1: do get killed? The ones that do get like, what

1714
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 1: are the situations where there what are the situations where

1715
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:30,519
Speaker 1: like how many how many rhinos are hunted every year?

1716
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:36,280
Speaker 1: Are they? Are they identified? Well, there's there's there's you know, okay,

1717
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:38,439
Speaker 1: there's two kinds. There's white rhino in the black rhino.

1718
01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:42,920
Speaker 1: Now the white rhino is actually the more popular it

1719
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:45,280
Speaker 1: is now. It didn't used to be, but it's now

1720
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:49,559
Speaker 1: the more populous species did not used to be. Oh no, no,

1721
01:44:49,640 --> 01:44:53,559
Speaker 1: they were almost gone, you know, the and there's a

1722
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:55,960
Speaker 1: long history of that. But if you you can go

1723
01:44:56,040 --> 01:45:00,280
Speaker 1: back to um the South Africans back in the these

1724
01:45:00,280 --> 01:45:01,920
Speaker 1: are sixties, they wanted to kill them all off because

1725
01:45:01,960 --> 01:45:06,280
Speaker 1: they wanted more land for grazing and cattle. And there

1726
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:10,080
Speaker 1: was like there was one little herd of white rhino

1727
01:45:10,200 --> 01:45:14,080
Speaker 1: on this park, three animals maybe, and they were getting

1728
01:45:14,080 --> 01:45:18,040
Speaker 1: all in bread and it was just total disaster. And

1729
01:45:18,080 --> 01:45:20,439
Speaker 1: then a guy named Ian Player, who was the golfer

1730
01:45:20,479 --> 01:45:24,280
Speaker 1: Gary Player's brother, came in and just started capturing these

1731
01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:28,400
Speaker 1: things and spreading them out, you know, spreading into different areas.

1732
01:45:29,120 --> 01:45:31,720
Speaker 1: And in that amount of time they went from like

1733
01:45:31,800 --> 01:45:35,160
Speaker 1: three hundreds, I don't know, twenty five thousand or something

1734
01:45:35,840 --> 01:45:39,320
Speaker 1: in South Africa. So what's well black rhino or the

1735
01:45:39,320 --> 01:45:41,559
Speaker 1: opposite they were like when they were when the white

1736
01:45:41,640 --> 01:45:43,840
Speaker 1: rhino was down to like like three d there was

1737
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:49,800
Speaker 1: probably a hundred thousand black rhino. Unfortunately, black rhino have horns,

1738
01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:53,559
Speaker 1: and the horn is is mistakenly thought of as an

1739
01:45:53,560 --> 01:46:00,000
Speaker 1: afrodisiac or of of medicinal as it is a popular

1740
01:46:00,200 --> 01:46:04,240
Speaker 1: ingredient Asian medicine because and here's this animal, the big

1741
01:46:04,280 --> 01:46:07,080
Speaker 1: fallast growing out of his forehead. Well it's mad, it's

1742
01:46:07,160 --> 01:46:09,559
Speaker 1: madd at hair, but it's also the same. The other

1743
01:46:09,560 --> 01:46:13,439
Speaker 1: part of it is also is many Chics wanted the

1744
01:46:13,520 --> 01:46:17,959
Speaker 1: horn for there you know, they're they're decorative dagger handles

1745
01:46:18,200 --> 01:46:21,400
Speaker 1: because you know, it's just beautiful material when it's worked,

1746
01:46:21,400 --> 01:46:24,960
Speaker 1: and they would so that. So, so here's the thing.

1747
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:27,719
Speaker 1: If you want to shoot a black rhino, to poach

1748
01:46:27,760 --> 01:46:32,840
Speaker 1: it almost that is that? What like? Is it the

1749
01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:39,280
Speaker 1: mechanical removal of black rhinos killing them for their horns,

1750
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:44,639
Speaker 1: not habitat loss? Well, it's it's there's probably so few.

1751
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:49,160
Speaker 1: There's a lot of habitat there's there's there's a lot

1752
01:46:49,160 --> 01:46:52,559
Speaker 1: of parks they could have rhinos on it, but they

1753
01:46:52,560 --> 01:46:55,519
Speaker 1: get they get killed pretty fast, and and it's it's

1754
01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:59,519
Speaker 1: a continuing it's a running it's a running firefight. You see,

1755
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:01,519
Speaker 1: someone went to a French zoo and shot of rhino.

1756
01:47:02,120 --> 01:47:08,439
Speaker 1: But but h yeah, well people, people people in Africa

1757
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:12,360
Speaker 1: had who had mounted rhino heads in there have come

1758
01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:14,200
Speaker 1: home and the house have been broken into and some

1759
01:47:14,320 --> 01:47:19,400
Speaker 1: horns chopped off, the horn off of Because from a

1760
01:47:19,400 --> 01:47:22,559
Speaker 1: pragmatic stand from a you know, pragmatic standpoint, Okay, so

1761
01:47:23,520 --> 01:47:26,960
Speaker 1: I want to get a permit to hunt a black rhino. Now,

1762
01:47:27,080 --> 01:47:30,280
Speaker 1: the US Fish and Wildlife Service says, if you can

1763
01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:32,920
Speaker 1: prove to me that you can prove to us that

1764
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:35,719
Speaker 1: by hunting this rhino you're actually which is an endangered species.

1765
01:47:35,880 --> 01:47:37,320
Speaker 1: If you can prove to us that by hunting this

1766
01:47:37,360 --> 01:47:40,920
Speaker 1: you're actually going to improve the species the you know,

1767
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:44,960
Speaker 1: improve the survival for the species by by pumping a

1768
01:47:45,000 --> 01:47:50,680
Speaker 1: lot of money into conservation, then have at it. So

1769
01:47:51,320 --> 01:47:54,880
Speaker 1: the way that so the government's and like Namibia in

1770
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:58,920
Speaker 1: places like that that have viable populations of black rhino.

1771
01:47:59,680 --> 01:48:01,760
Speaker 1: And also part of the problem is is they want

1772
01:48:01,760 --> 01:48:04,840
Speaker 1: to get rid of the old bulls because they are

1773
01:48:04,720 --> 01:48:07,960
Speaker 1: a drug on the market. As they say, they they

1774
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:10,439
Speaker 1: don't breed probably you know they've done breeding. They just

1775
01:48:10,880 --> 01:48:13,760
Speaker 1: they take over territory and they want to move them out.

1776
01:48:13,960 --> 01:48:16,639
Speaker 1: That that if you kill one, you're gonna actually end

1777
01:48:16,680 --> 01:48:20,000
Speaker 1: up with net more rhinos because you're pulling this one

1778
01:48:20,040 --> 01:48:23,719
Speaker 1: out of the out of the herd. So a guy

1779
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:26,880
Speaker 1: comes over to Namibia, he pays the Nimbian government two

1780
01:48:26,920 --> 01:48:31,040
Speaker 1: hundred fifty dollars three fifty thousand dollars. That money then

1781
01:48:31,080 --> 01:48:35,559
Speaker 1: ostensibly is earmarked for various conservation projects related to the

1782
01:48:35,600 --> 01:48:39,720
Speaker 1: black rhino. He then can import, which is important to him.

1783
01:48:39,720 --> 01:48:43,519
Speaker 1: He can import that rhino head into the United States.

1784
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:48,040
Speaker 1: Now the alternative, the alternative is a poacher comes out

1785
01:48:48,040 --> 01:48:50,080
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, jack lights, it shoots,

1786
01:48:50,080 --> 01:48:56,720
Speaker 1: it sells the horn for twenty dollars. It was, you know,

1787
01:48:56,720 --> 01:48:59,360
Speaker 1: and these things are going up and down. The big

1788
01:48:59,360 --> 01:49:01,519
Speaker 1: deal right now is like if you can believe that

1789
01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:04,840
Speaker 1: China is actually gonna stop the trade. And they said

1790
01:49:04,880 --> 01:49:07,879
Speaker 1: they finally got around to saying, yeah, we're no more ivory,

1791
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:11,599
Speaker 1: no more, We're done. And if they do that, it's

1792
01:49:11,600 --> 01:49:14,240
Speaker 1: gonna dry everything up and there's gonna be no incentive

1793
01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:16,960
Speaker 1: to start poaching these things things. So it might help. Well,

1794
01:49:17,320 --> 01:49:31,400
Speaker 1: it can't hurt, you know, Wow, Johnny Dude, I like, yeah, like, uh,

1795
01:49:33,360 --> 01:49:35,080
Speaker 1: your book really made me think about a ton of

1796
01:49:35,080 --> 01:49:39,920
Speaker 1: ship I hadn't thought about before. We could I could

1797
01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:42,840
Speaker 1: I read a small piece out of it? Please? Okay?

1798
01:49:45,439 --> 01:49:48,519
Speaker 1: It's interesting to me is that not a single topic

1799
01:49:49,000 --> 01:49:55,080
Speaker 1: of the last hour and a half has been without controversy. No,

1800
01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:57,400
Speaker 1: but that was my approach to the book. I didn't

1801
01:49:57,400 --> 01:50:01,080
Speaker 1: approach the book. I didn't approach the bo just wanting

1802
01:50:01,080 --> 01:50:04,559
Speaker 1: to hear cool hunting stories. I approached the book because

1803
01:50:04,680 --> 01:50:10,479
Speaker 1: I'm like a guy, uh who is like just interest, like, okay,

1804
01:50:10,560 --> 01:50:12,720
Speaker 1: a lot of like I have an inner struggle, like

1805
01:50:12,920 --> 01:50:15,080
Speaker 1: do I want to go. Is it a thing that

1806
01:50:15,160 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 1: in my life needs to happen as a person who's

1807
01:50:17,640 --> 01:50:22,000
Speaker 1: pursuing hunting as a discipline and as a mechanism for exploration,

1808
01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:26,120
Speaker 1: Like is that or is that not? I came out

1809
01:50:26,120 --> 01:50:29,840
Speaker 1: of that book thinking that that I would like to

1810
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:39,479
Speaker 1: go to a wilderness type area and travel with people

1811
01:50:39,479 --> 01:50:43,439
Speaker 1: who were who grew up in that environment, and travel

1812
01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:45,519
Speaker 1: with him and crawl through that thick ass brush looking

1813
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:49,759
Speaker 1: for kate buffalo? Are are there? You know? The other possible?

1814
01:50:49,800 --> 01:50:53,719
Speaker 1: I mean, if you really want to get um there

1815
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:59,320
Speaker 1: you there's the um Democratic Republic of the Congo, and

1816
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:02,839
Speaker 1: there you hunt the forest dwarf. And don't be mistaken

1817
01:51:02,880 --> 01:51:05,400
Speaker 1: by the fact I called dwarf forest buffalo, because they're

1818
01:51:05,400 --> 01:51:07,760
Speaker 1: actually more dangerous than the cape buffalo because of the

1819
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:10,879
Speaker 1: habitat they live in. And that is where you actually

1820
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:16,040
Speaker 1: that is I haven't done it, but that is way wicked.

1821
01:51:16,080 --> 01:51:17,920
Speaker 1: I mean that is you are hunting a lot of

1822
01:51:17,920 --> 01:51:20,840
Speaker 1: the times, you're hunting with pigmies and and you know,

1823
01:51:21,080 --> 01:51:23,720
Speaker 1: and and you can imagine what that must be like,

1824
01:51:23,760 --> 01:51:26,880
Speaker 1: the trip that must be going into these Yeah, we've

1825
01:51:26,880 --> 01:51:30,519
Speaker 1: talked with our body about doing that. Yeah, yeah, man,

1826
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:33,439
Speaker 1: I don't mean, do you do you feel you know,

1827
01:51:33,439 --> 01:51:36,920
Speaker 1: it's like the customer satisfaction surveys. Do you feel that

1828
01:51:37,000 --> 01:51:40,800
Speaker 1: in our conversation, um, that I've focused on ship that

1829
01:51:40,840 --> 01:51:44,400
Speaker 1: you wish I hadn't focused on No? No, I mean

1830
01:51:44,439 --> 01:51:48,800
Speaker 1: I I appreciate you know, like one to ten. How

1831
01:51:48,920 --> 01:51:54,280
Speaker 1: likely would you be to recommend this to friend? To

1832
01:51:54,320 --> 01:51:56,840
Speaker 1: recommend this to a friend? Well, I don't want to.

1833
01:51:56,840 --> 01:51:59,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you know you haven't. You haven't put this

1834
01:51:59,080 --> 01:52:01,439
Speaker 1: on the area, So I depends how how politic I

1835
01:52:01,479 --> 01:52:07,160
Speaker 1: want to be. Uh, The point being that, yeah, this

1836
01:52:07,200 --> 01:52:10,680
Speaker 1: has been This has been a refreshing, refreshingly intelligent conversation

1837
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:17,040
Speaker 1: for me. Because you know, you're not an African hand

1838
01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:19,280
Speaker 1: let's put it that way. What does that mean, Well,

1839
01:52:19,320 --> 01:52:20,920
Speaker 1: you don't have any you don't have any African you

1840
01:52:20,920 --> 01:52:23,360
Speaker 1: don't you don't have any on the ground experience in Africa.

1841
01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:27,200
Speaker 1: That's a fair assumption. But you're a hunter, and you

1842
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:32,240
Speaker 1: can understand the motivations of why people would go some

1843
01:52:33,520 --> 01:52:36,719
Speaker 1: crazy ass places like Africa and why once they went

1844
01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:39,760
Speaker 1: there they kept going back when they really had no

1845
01:52:39,880 --> 01:52:44,400
Speaker 1: business financially or economically, or you know, trying to put

1846
01:52:44,439 --> 01:52:46,519
Speaker 1: a kid through college and a wife, you know, to

1847
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:49,040
Speaker 1: keep her fed at least once a week. You know

1848
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:52,160
Speaker 1: she's already going like, you're not going back, all right?

1849
01:52:52,360 --> 01:52:57,720
Speaker 1: And I'd go like, um, no I might, God no no,

1850
01:52:58,479 --> 01:53:02,000
Speaker 1: so um yeah, I mean, I mean I give it

1851
01:53:02,080 --> 01:53:04,479
Speaker 1: a solid night and a half. How is that? Okay?

1852
01:53:05,040 --> 01:53:07,559
Speaker 1: I wasn't even worried about it? So you just said

1853
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:12,080
Speaker 1: that No, Uh, I was insane. He always he always

1854
01:53:12,080 --> 01:53:13,920
Speaker 1: struck me as a troublemaker. Well, we're not gonna sit

1855
01:53:13,960 --> 01:53:16,400
Speaker 1: down and swap old hunting stories about Africas. I haven't

1856
01:53:16,400 --> 01:53:19,320
Speaker 1: gone there. Yeah no, no, But I just say that

1857
01:53:19,320 --> 01:53:22,120
Speaker 1: that's sort of there is. There is there is no

1858
01:53:22,160 --> 01:53:26,160
Speaker 1: way in this day and age that you cannot talk

1859
01:53:26,280 --> 01:53:31,479
Speaker 1: about Africa without creating controversy. And I think even with

1860
01:53:31,560 --> 01:53:36,880
Speaker 1: two completely like minded people to hardcore African hunters, they'd

1861
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:41,160
Speaker 1: probably find some controversies. And it's it just seems like

1862
01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:44,639
Speaker 1: it's inherent almost. I mean, there's there's, there's, there's there's

1863
01:53:45,240 --> 01:53:48,040
Speaker 1: let's put it. Hunting in Africa gives you the potential

1864
01:53:48,040 --> 01:53:50,559
Speaker 1: of being the worst person you ever were in your

1865
01:53:50,680 --> 01:53:55,120
Speaker 1: entire life, or maybe not the best person, but a

1866
01:53:55,160 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 1: pretty damn good person. Um. You know, there's there's there's that,

1867
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:05,360
Speaker 1: there's that choice, there is that you know, there is

1868
01:54:05,400 --> 01:54:10,040
Speaker 1: that option available. Yeah, you talk about some time you

1869
01:54:10,160 --> 01:54:14,120
Speaker 1: spent on a trip with a person who embarrassed you

1870
01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:20,160
Speaker 1: a great deal. Yeah, yeah, he was. He was their

1871
01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:25,280
Speaker 1: views on the culture, their views on racial issues. He was,

1872
01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:28,160
Speaker 1: he was. He was a piece of work. I mean

1873
01:54:28,240 --> 01:54:30,400
Speaker 1: it was really that's a good story because you really

1874
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:32,640
Speaker 1: go to have such a visceral hatred for that guy,

1875
01:54:33,400 --> 01:54:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, and it's and it was it was it

1876
01:54:35,320 --> 01:54:39,440
Speaker 1: was like it was because he it was mutual. But

1877
01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:41,760
Speaker 1: but but it came to a point where you like

1878
01:54:42,000 --> 01:54:44,640
Speaker 1: came to a point where the author Tom here Is said,

1879
01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:50,080
Speaker 1: why did you come to Africa except to shoot? Except

1880
01:54:50,080 --> 01:54:53,320
Speaker 1: to shoot stuff? Except to shoot stuff? You know? And

1881
01:54:53,520 --> 01:54:57,040
Speaker 1: it's like, when I was twenty, I could understand that

1882
01:54:57,080 --> 01:54:59,720
Speaker 1: because you know, you're twenty, you want to you have

1883
01:54:59,800 --> 01:55:03,200
Speaker 1: that you know, you know you want to you want

1884
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:07,760
Speaker 1: to you want to hunt everything. But now, I mean,

1885
01:55:09,320 --> 01:55:11,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm happy to go back and like I mean,

1886
01:55:11,400 --> 01:55:15,480
Speaker 1: I I think I envy somebody like Craig Boddington because

1887
01:55:15,520 --> 01:55:19,280
Speaker 1: he's like over in like barrier hunting, these like antelope there,

1888
01:55:19,320 --> 01:55:22,680
Speaker 1: the size of this water glass. You know, it's like

1889
01:55:23,480 --> 01:55:26,440
Speaker 1: and it was, and it's you know, the whole the

1890
01:55:26,480 --> 01:55:29,360
Speaker 1: whole fact that he is dealing with native trackers and

1891
01:55:29,360 --> 01:55:33,360
Speaker 1: they're calling them in and it's you know, it's impenetrable

1892
01:55:33,480 --> 01:55:39,080
Speaker 1: jungle in this and this whole adventure, I guess, I mean,

1893
01:55:39,320 --> 01:55:41,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's maybe it sounds cliche, but how

1894
01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:46,600
Speaker 1: many adventures are there left. I'm sure there there's plenty

1895
01:55:46,600 --> 01:55:48,080
Speaker 1: of them, but I but I mean, also, it kind

1896
01:55:48,120 --> 01:55:49,400
Speaker 1: of seems to be that more and more people are

1897
01:55:49,480 --> 01:55:53,000
Speaker 1: kind of like adventure is becoming more and more kind

1898
01:55:53,000 --> 01:55:57,240
Speaker 1: of a stunt, you know what I mean, And that

1899
01:55:57,240 --> 01:56:00,200
Speaker 1: that when I went to I came at the very

1900
01:56:00,280 --> 01:56:03,720
Speaker 1: very very very end of when going to Africa was

1901
01:56:03,760 --> 01:56:09,400
Speaker 1: an adventure because it was Africa and and you didn't

1902
01:56:09,440 --> 01:56:11,800
Speaker 1: have to be It wasn't a stunt to find adventure

1903
01:56:11,840 --> 01:56:14,880
Speaker 1: in Africa. You it was there, you know, just by

1904
01:56:14,920 --> 01:56:18,720
Speaker 1: the fact of being there. And it's interesting you mentioned

1905
01:56:18,760 --> 01:56:24,160
Speaker 1: the that story about that guy, that hunter. We took

1906
01:56:24,160 --> 01:56:28,440
Speaker 1: a mutual disliking to um so this meaning that you

1907
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:30,280
Speaker 1: and me took a mutual this left no he and

1908
01:56:30,320 --> 01:56:32,720
Speaker 1: I took a mutual dislike to each other. You got

1909
01:56:32,760 --> 01:56:39,240
Speaker 1: any final thoughts, Yes, got a lot of final questions. Sure,

1910
01:56:39,440 --> 01:56:41,960
Speaker 1: we don't have to probably a time for it, but um,

1911
01:56:42,280 --> 01:56:45,080
Speaker 1: pick one, pick one, pick your best one, take your

1912
01:56:45,120 --> 01:56:49,120
Speaker 1: best shot. Attention must be paid. I'm not it's all

1913
01:56:49,160 --> 01:56:50,720
Speaker 1: the classic. I just want to be like, I just

1914
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:56,720
Speaker 1: want to start talking calibersing bullet weights. That's that's yeah,

1915
01:56:56,760 --> 01:57:00,960
Speaker 1: because that's like like, I mean, I like the bigger

1916
01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:05,480
Speaker 1: ideas for you. But Tom and I five Nitro Express

1917
01:57:07,440 --> 01:57:10,600
Speaker 1: for seventies four seventies offully nice. Tom and I could

1918
01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:14,120
Speaker 1: probably sit around now after That's what you wanted. You

1919
01:57:14,120 --> 01:57:19,080
Speaker 1: guys left Yanni's podcast in which yeah, I'm meant to

1920
01:57:19,160 --> 01:57:23,160
Speaker 1: ask what his favorite caliber over forty years and now

1921
01:57:23,200 --> 01:57:26,600
Speaker 1: that changed. You should have told me earlier three seventy five.

1922
01:57:26,760 --> 01:57:28,560
Speaker 1: You can't go wrong. You can't go wrong in Africa

1923
01:57:28,560 --> 01:57:30,320
Speaker 1: with a three seventy five. I'll tell you the name,

1924
01:57:30,560 --> 01:57:32,600
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, just let you know that I'm adapt

1925
01:57:33,160 --> 01:57:37,280
Speaker 1: the Queens of the Planes Rifles. Is that something like that? Queen?

1926
01:57:37,320 --> 01:57:42,480
Speaker 1: You have the planes, right, the queen? Yeah? Three? Al right,

1927
01:57:42,520 --> 01:57:46,720
Speaker 1: So Yann is bummed out that we didn't, not at all.

1928
01:57:46,760 --> 01:57:51,040
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that, like you know, Um, as we're

1929
01:57:51,080 --> 01:57:54,080
Speaker 1: discussing all these controversial ideas, I'm thinking, Okay, when you're

1930
01:57:54,080 --> 01:57:57,200
Speaker 1: getting ready to wonder if he handladed most of his

1931
01:57:58,760 --> 01:58:00,680
Speaker 1: ready to go getting ready to a matter of fact,

1932
01:58:00,680 --> 01:58:02,400
Speaker 1: I did. But that's besides when you're getting ready to go,

1933
01:58:02,480 --> 01:58:06,520
Speaker 1: text Tom and ask him what Yeah, and and and

1934
01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:09,760
Speaker 1: the solids by the way, Yeah, So I know these

1935
01:58:09,840 --> 01:58:12,440
Speaker 1: landscapes are like when I think of fence tons. All

1936
01:58:12,480 --> 01:58:16,640
Speaker 1: I know of is our recent discussion with um you know,

1937
01:58:17,000 --> 01:58:20,120
Speaker 1: talking about CWD, right, um And I know the landscape

1938
01:58:20,160 --> 01:58:22,840
Speaker 1: is on such a greater scale over in Africa, But

1939
01:58:23,000 --> 01:58:26,160
Speaker 1: in these fenced areas, is there any problem with disease transmission? Well,

1940
01:58:26,240 --> 01:58:29,840
Speaker 1: that's a good question, um. And and it's you know

1941
01:58:29,920 --> 01:58:32,960
Speaker 1: that the there's I think in the afterward to the book,

1942
01:58:32,960 --> 01:58:38,440
Speaker 1: I kind of look into the fact of that. You know,

1943
01:58:38,480 --> 01:58:41,320
Speaker 1: you have this this you have one school of thought

1944
01:58:41,400 --> 01:58:45,080
Speaker 1: that says, by getting value out of the wildlife, we're

1945
01:58:45,080 --> 01:58:48,520
Speaker 1: actually helping to preserve it by these ranches down there.

1946
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:52,200
Speaker 1: But at the same time, they're also doing these bizarre

1947
01:58:53,760 --> 01:58:58,440
Speaker 1: breeding programs so they can come up with gold golden

1948
01:58:58,560 --> 01:59:03,720
Speaker 1: willed beast or or or you know, or black impoos

1949
01:59:04,320 --> 01:59:07,320
Speaker 1: and which they have now found out that they're all sterile,

1950
01:59:07,560 --> 01:59:09,320
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it's it's it's like it's so

1951
01:59:09,400 --> 01:59:12,520
Speaker 1: it's like it's it's like a management paradox. Really, like

1952
01:59:13,240 --> 01:59:16,920
Speaker 1: dozens of species of big game isn't enough. Yeah, well

1953
01:59:16,960 --> 01:59:19,320
Speaker 1: that's exactly it. I mean, they want to they want

1954
01:59:19,320 --> 01:59:21,160
Speaker 1: to be able to you know, oh, well you don't

1955
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:22,640
Speaker 1: have one of these, you know, they want to be

1956
01:59:22,680 --> 01:59:24,440
Speaker 1: able to to buttonhold a guy at a at a

1957
01:59:24,520 --> 01:59:27,320
Speaker 1: hunting convention that you don't have one of these in

1958
01:59:27,360 --> 01:59:31,440
Speaker 1: your wall. Yeah. No, no, it's it's it's crazy. It's crazy.

1959
01:59:31,480 --> 01:59:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just and then you know, there's a

1960
01:59:34,200 --> 01:59:36,720
Speaker 1: whole argument about that. But as I point out that

1961
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:39,920
Speaker 1: that that essay, you know, it's the same thing that

1962
01:59:39,960 --> 01:59:42,800
Speaker 1: happened in Spain when Spain went you know, we went

1963
01:59:42,840 --> 01:59:45,920
Speaker 1: crazy with all this money. Everybody wanted to to have

1964
01:59:46,080 --> 01:59:49,960
Speaker 1: Andalusian horses. Then they all went broke and then the

1965
01:59:49,960 --> 01:59:53,000
Speaker 1: horses they just left to starve. You know, they had

1966
01:59:53,040 --> 01:59:55,720
Speaker 1: no money to to run the hostantias anymore, and they

1967
01:59:55,720 --> 01:59:58,080
Speaker 1: just took off and lift. So right right now they're saying, well,

1968
01:59:58,080 --> 01:59:59,320
Speaker 1: look at all the money we can make out of

1969
01:59:59,320 --> 02:00:03,360
Speaker 1: these animals, we can it's a bubble. It's a bubble,

1970
02:00:03,520 --> 02:00:09,520
Speaker 1: and it's gonna and then what happens I don't know. Yeah,

1971
02:00:09,720 --> 02:00:15,040
Speaker 1: and disease maybe one of those factors or animals there,

1972
02:00:15,560 --> 02:00:19,480
Speaker 1: like in this book you refer to and I don't

1973
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:23,640
Speaker 1: know over the wholer thing, but risk of wild like

1974
02:00:23,760 --> 02:00:26,080
Speaker 1: well the same thing with Bruce Lowis. And and they

1975
02:00:26,080 --> 02:00:31,160
Speaker 1: don't want like shooting animals prevent disease transmission to livestock. Yeah,

1976
02:00:31,160 --> 02:00:35,240
Speaker 1: they they've actually, I mean that's what they've again found out,

1977
02:00:35,320 --> 02:00:39,360
Speaker 1: is that they're you were talking about the map of

1978
02:00:39,480 --> 02:00:42,760
Speaker 1: how much non supplemental feeding of cattle and how much

1979
02:00:42,880 --> 02:00:45,400
Speaker 1: land there is. Well it's even worse than South Africa.

1980
02:00:45,480 --> 02:00:48,400
Speaker 1: I mean there's most of the land is really pretty

1981
02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:51,840
Speaker 1: poor agricultural land. So there is that argument that at

1982
02:00:51,920 --> 02:00:55,160
Speaker 1: least the wildlife is adapted to the land and we

1983
02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:56,720
Speaker 1: can make some money off of that, and then we

1984
02:00:56,720 --> 02:00:58,640
Speaker 1: can we don't have I don't know what else should

1985
02:00:58,680 --> 02:01:01,280
Speaker 1: do with the land over there, but you know, you

1986
02:01:01,400 --> 02:01:06,960
Speaker 1: can you know it it just becomes you're chasing your

1987
02:01:06,960 --> 02:01:09,240
Speaker 1: own to your dog chasing its tail. I don't know,

1988
02:01:09,880 --> 02:01:14,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I I you know it these public I mean,

1989
02:01:15,640 --> 02:01:17,120
Speaker 1: you know the fact that these guys are going to

1990
02:01:17,360 --> 02:01:22,320
Speaker 1: auctions and spending two million dollars for a buffalo to

1991
02:01:22,320 --> 02:01:28,160
Speaker 1: to put into their breeding stock because I think the

1992
02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:30,200
Speaker 1: genes are gonna be there's no guarantee the genes are

1993
02:01:30,200 --> 02:01:34,600
Speaker 1: gonna do anything. Yeah, you have a real concluding thoughts

1994
02:01:34,720 --> 02:01:38,640
Speaker 1: every hunting small games over there for years. Yeah. Yeah,

1995
02:01:38,680 --> 02:01:43,600
Speaker 1: Franklin Franklin grouse. Um, that's like kind of like that's

1996
02:01:43,640 --> 02:01:46,880
Speaker 1: like the quintessential small game. Right, everybody goes like almost

1997
02:01:46,880 --> 02:01:50,160
Speaker 1: everybody's like hunting Franklin, right, or sand grouse, sand grouser,

1998
02:01:50,680 --> 02:01:54,360
Speaker 1: sand grouser. Tough. Band grounds are tough there, I mean

1999
02:01:54,360 --> 02:01:57,080
Speaker 1: they are. They just the Usually they usually wait until

2000
02:01:57,120 --> 02:02:00,520
Speaker 1: like about ten minutes after sunset to come to the

2001
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:03,840
Speaker 1: water hole, you know, and they're just streaking in there.

2002
02:02:05,080 --> 02:02:06,960
Speaker 1: And that's you know, they're just harder hell to kill.

2003
02:02:07,320 --> 02:02:09,680
Speaker 1: Throwing another one, Yohnie. That's why as you get all

2004
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:11,240
Speaker 1: this out of asistance, they feel like you weren't waste

2005
02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:15,800
Speaker 1: your time here. Oh I don't handle you're shooting handloads.

2006
02:02:16,320 --> 02:02:22,680
Speaker 1: He likes three squirrels. Yeah, I wounded squirrels, but not

2007
02:02:22,720 --> 02:02:26,920
Speaker 1: in Africa. He likes to about squirrels. I like I

2008
02:02:26,960 --> 02:02:28,240
Speaker 1: like it. I like it when you put the they

2009
02:02:28,240 --> 02:02:30,040
Speaker 1: put the they put the stick up in the tree

2010
02:02:30,040 --> 02:02:35,240
Speaker 1: and they twisted, twisting, twisting, the twisting the squail out

2011
02:02:35,240 --> 02:02:39,560
Speaker 1: of the tree. Yeah, a wounded one. Yeah, all those

2012
02:02:39,560 --> 02:02:43,320
Speaker 1: are the worst coum You're good. No, No, I can

2013
02:02:43,440 --> 02:02:45,720
Speaker 1: come up with plenty. So you never were in a

2014
02:02:45,800 --> 02:02:49,320
Speaker 1: dangerous position with a kate buffalo? How about any other animal?

2015
02:02:49,640 --> 02:02:54,400
Speaker 1: Did you ever? We ever? Were you ever actually thinking? Yeah,

2016
02:02:54,480 --> 02:02:57,240
Speaker 1: wild boar? While yeah, it was that was the the

2017
02:02:57,280 --> 02:02:59,280
Speaker 1: only I think out and out charge I ever saw

2018
02:02:59,320 --> 02:03:00,560
Speaker 1: it. It It kind of very it off for me and

2019
02:03:00,600 --> 02:03:03,440
Speaker 1: went towards this other guy was actually a wild boar,

2020
02:03:03,560 --> 02:03:07,240
Speaker 1: which is the least you know all that crazy ship

2021
02:03:07,360 --> 02:03:09,520
Speaker 1: that's a wild boar. Yeah, well that you never know.

2022
02:03:09,800 --> 02:03:11,640
Speaker 1: That's the one that you know. You never hear the

2023
02:03:11,680 --> 02:03:14,760
Speaker 1: bullet that kills you right well, you know, Capstick said,

2024
02:03:14,880 --> 02:03:17,480
Speaker 1: what was it? A dangerous thing he ever encountered? Was

2025
02:03:17,560 --> 02:03:23,480
Speaker 1: the woman on the malaria drugs? Right? Pet my friend Pete?

2026
02:03:23,960 --> 02:03:25,720
Speaker 1: Is that the name of the story. No, no, no,

2027
02:03:25,720 --> 02:03:28,920
Speaker 1: I can't. Pete was a friend of one and and

2028
02:03:28,920 --> 02:03:31,760
Speaker 1: and and God love him. He was a wonderful rock

2029
02:03:31,840 --> 02:03:38,560
Speaker 1: on tour. Yeah, you talk about malarious pills too. Yeah. Yeah,

2030
02:03:38,600 --> 02:03:40,640
Speaker 1: but there's a well, oh no, that's a hilarium I

2031
02:03:40,680 --> 02:03:43,560
Speaker 1: think is the It's a great psychedelic drug to take

2032
02:03:43,680 --> 02:03:46,240
Speaker 1: when you're sleeping because you get these like just full

2033
02:03:46,280 --> 02:03:49,080
Speaker 1: blown dreams. Dude, I just screak. I could see take

2034
02:03:49,160 --> 02:03:50,600
Speaker 1: I could see when I'm on that, I could see

2035
02:03:50,640 --> 02:03:52,760
Speaker 1: waking up and like realizing that you're sucking on the

2036
02:03:52,800 --> 02:03:55,920
Speaker 1: end of a pistol. It's that it's that bad for

2037
02:03:56,000 --> 02:03:59,800
Speaker 1: my brain. You've had you've had larium problems, yeah, yeah,

2038
02:04:00,160 --> 02:04:03,720
Speaker 1: Like yeah, well, I'm like, I'll take the malaria. Yeah,

2039
02:04:03,760 --> 02:04:06,200
Speaker 1: I know, I have to choose between that drug and

2040
02:04:06,240 --> 02:04:09,280
Speaker 1: that disease. I'll take the disease, you know. And yeah,

2041
02:04:09,280 --> 02:04:11,800
Speaker 1: I know it's it's it's it's bad stuff for some people,

2042
02:04:11,960 --> 02:04:15,680
Speaker 1: really bad stuff for some people. But yeah, all right, man,

2043
02:04:16,240 --> 02:04:21,200
Speaker 1: all right, August and Africa, thank you so much. I'm

2044
02:04:21,240 --> 02:04:23,760
Speaker 1: I'm guessing people can buy this book on Amazon. The

2045
02:04:23,800 --> 02:04:27,520
Speaker 1: other book, Mother my novella, is The snow Leopards Tail

2046
02:04:28,320 --> 02:04:34,080
Speaker 1: that's also available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all all

2047
02:04:34,160 --> 02:04:41,560
Speaker 1: your finer uh you know, online outlets. Yeah, if you're

2048
02:04:41,640 --> 02:04:46,520
Speaker 1: curious you hate African hunting, if you love it, if

2049
02:04:46,520 --> 02:04:50,720
Speaker 1: you might want to go, it'll it'll inform your perspectives

2050
02:04:51,400 --> 02:04:55,200
Speaker 1: in a non manipulative way. Um, thanks for joining us MAN.

2051
02:04:55,200 --> 02:04:57,080
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thank you so much. I appreciate the

2052
02:04:57,160 --> 02:04:57,720
Speaker 1: opportunity