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Speaker 1: Trigger warning. This podcast involves discussions of child sexual abuse

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Speaker 1: and pedophilia. Listener discretion is advised. I read a book

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Speaker 1: last week. It was Crime and Punishment. I'm kidding, it

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Speaker 1: was The Care and Keeping of You. You know. It

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Speaker 1: was Lolita by Vladimir Nabukov. Jesus Christ relaxed. I haven't

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Speaker 1: read this book in full in a couple of months

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Speaker 1: at this point, in spite of the fact that I've

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Speaker 1: been thinking about some version of it every single waking hour,

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Speaker 1: and this read was different. The more I read this book,

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Speaker 1: the more I realized that how it's framed to you,

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Speaker 1: truly is everything. Humbert Humbert, the unrepentant child sex abuser

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Speaker 1: who tries to win over the reader's favor by occasionally

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Speaker 1: demonstrating self awareness and remorse. Although the sincerity of that

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Speaker 1: remorse is very much up for debate. There's some indication

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Speaker 1: of this on every single page Humbert. Humbert is a

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Speaker 1: man who is not just an abuser of children and

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Speaker 1: not just an asshole academic like. He is obsessed with

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Speaker 1: control in ways that jumped out to me more than

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Speaker 1: ever before. And I don't just mean this in regard

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Speaker 1: to his abuse of dolorous Hayes. It's a need to

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Speaker 1: control virtually everyone around him, but it shows up more

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Speaker 1: dangerously when dealing with women and girls. I'll just list

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Speaker 1: them off here. When describing his habit of aging young

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Speaker 1: girls at the park as a young adult, sometimes brushing

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Speaker 1: up against them or saying suggestive things, he expresses anxiety

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Speaker 1: that he is traumatizing or harming them. Early in the book,

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Speaker 1: he meets with a French sex worker named Monique, who

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Speaker 1: says that she is of age, but Humbert thinks she

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Speaker 1: looks younger. After their first night together, Humbert pays her

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Speaker 1: a bonus. Monique is thrilled, and when he asks her

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Speaker 1: to come back the next day, Monique arrives looking more confident.

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Speaker 1: Humbert remarks that she looks much older now and loses interest.

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Speaker 1: When his first wife, Valeria, who he hates, tells him

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Speaker 1: that she's leaving him for another man, Humbert admits he's

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Speaker 1: mainly furious that she decided to leave him again, always control.

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Speaker 1: His criticisms for Charlotte Hayes are harsh and petty. He

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Speaker 1: hates her for being in a book club, He hates

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Speaker 1: her for doing her hair. He hates her for having

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Speaker 1: tourist art at her house, and he wants you to

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Speaker 1: hate her for the same reasons. He mentions that at

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Speaker 1: more than one point he is considered raping a young

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Speaker 1: girl then shooting himself in the head. Before he meets Dolores,

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Speaker 1: he I will remind you was held in mental health

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Speaker 1: facilities several times before meeting Dolores Hayes, and brags about

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Speaker 1: learning how to control the mental health professionals treating him

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Speaker 1: so that he can leave sooner without any consequences. Humbert's

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Speaker 1: short marriage to Charlotte Hayes includes constant strategy on his part.

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Speaker 1: He makes sure that there's some misinformation about him in

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Speaker 1: their wedding announcement, and he tells neighbors that he's Dolores's

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Speaker 1: biological father so that they won't check in on him

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Speaker 1: after he's skipped town. Same for what Humbert chooses to

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Speaker 1: include about his and Charlotte's conversations when allegedly recalling her

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Speaker 1: love letter to him with one accuracy, He skips over

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Speaker 1: part to that detail Charlotte's personal trauma and focuses on

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Speaker 1: passages that make her sound desperate and silly when she

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Speaker 1: finds out that he's planning to rape and abduct her daughter.

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Speaker 1: He quickly tells the reader that he didn't need to

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Speaker 1: include what he said to her in the moments before

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Speaker 1: she died, so canonically we have no idea what happened

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Speaker 1: in the last conversation Charlotte had in her life before

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Speaker 1: she was mysteriously and conveniently run over by a car.

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Speaker 1: Humbert is constantly doing the math on how long he

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Speaker 1: thinks he'll be attracted to Dolorous, or to any child,

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Speaker 1: detailing at length when they go into puberty, what their

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Speaker 1: bodies look like, what their measurements are, how to corner

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Speaker 1: them without consequences. He mentions at one point that if

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Speaker 1: Lolita is adapted into a movie, here's where a fate

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Speaker 1: should go in the movie. He lies to hotels, He

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Speaker 1: lies to neighbors. As they move from place to place.

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Speaker 1: He changes his and Dolorous his names and forces her

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Speaker 1: to play along as he lies to her teachers. He

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Speaker 1: controls who Dolorus is allowed to see on the road,

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Speaker 1: and when she is allowed to see others. He is

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Speaker 1: always supervising or leering from a distance, then often punishing

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Speaker 1: her for relating with her peers. In a way he

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Speaker 1: doesn't understand. This was always a major part of the book,

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Speaker 1: but the strategy and the constantness that he controls do

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Speaker 1: Laura sexually never stops being horrifying. Starting from very early on,

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Speaker 1: he begins to deny her motel breakfasts the summer she's

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Speaker 1: twelve years old before she has sex with him. And

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Speaker 1: of course, the most significant way that Humbert Humbert asserts

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Speaker 1: his control over this narrative is how he's attempting to

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Speaker 1: control you and me, the gentlewomen of the jury. As

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Speaker 1: he puts it, that's the game of the book. Can

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Speaker 1: he convince you he is pitiable enough to be redeemed

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Speaker 1: on this reading. Something that stuck out to me is

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Speaker 1: Humbert's habit for stalling a page or two before describing

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Speaker 1: the abuse of Dolores. He will sometimes emphasize his restraint

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Speaker 1: before saying something horrible. Look how long he went before

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Speaker 1: acting on his abuse of impulses. He'll sometimes pause to

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Speaker 1: implicate do Laura's before we even know what's happened? Quote

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Speaker 1: first she woul attempt me, then thwart me unquote. He

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Speaker 1: landes to us at one point, all in an attempt

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Speaker 1: to set up the abusive scene as something she was

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Speaker 1: somehow inviting. Memorably sandwiched between sections detailing abuse, Humbert assures

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Speaker 1: us that he is not a rapist or an abuser.

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Speaker 1: And here's why. Quote we did not rape as good

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Speaker 1: soldiers do. We are unhappy, mild dog year gentlemen, sufficiently

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Speaker 1: well integrated to control our urge in the presence of adults,

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Speaker 1: but ready to give years and years of life for

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Speaker 1: one chance to touch an infant. Emphatically, no killers are

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Speaker 1: we poets never kill unquote, And again, before he admits

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Speaker 1: to raping Dolores at the enchanted Hunter's hotel, before she

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Speaker 1: knows her mother has been killed, Humbert says flat out

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Speaker 1: it was she who seduced me. The same goes for

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Speaker 1: whenever he talks about only giving Dolores her allowance when

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Speaker 1: she fulfills her quote unquote basic obligations, as if being

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Speaker 1: raped is a thirteen year old obligation. This is, of

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Speaker 1: course the job of an unreliable narrator, but it was

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Speaker 1: interesting to this strategy make an appeal to the jury's

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Speaker 1: emotions immediately before admitting to the crime, implicate the victim

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Speaker 1: immediately before admitting to the crime, see how many points

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Speaker 1: that wins you. And as you know, this strategy of Humbert,

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Speaker 1: Humberts has worked on many readers over the years. And

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Speaker 1: then there's how he treats Rita. Do you remember Rita?

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Speaker 1: No one remembers Rita. I remembered Rita this time for

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Speaker 1: a writer who's not known for his female characters, I

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Speaker 1: noticed the women who exist on the fringes of Humbert

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Speaker 1: Humbert's skewed narrative more clearly when going through in the

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Speaker 1: bulk Offs prose. Rita stuck out to me a lot

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Speaker 1: this time. And if you don't remember her, it's because

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Speaker 1: she does not appear in any major adaptation. But she's

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Speaker 1: Humbert's companion after Dolores runs away for about two years,

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Speaker 1: before Dolores reaches out again when she's pregnant and seventeen

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Speaker 1: and hoping to borrow some money from him. As usual,

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Speaker 1: Humbert writes about Rita pretty condescendingly, but these details jumped out.

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Speaker 1: Rita is an alcoholic whose brother is a politician that

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Speaker 1: gives her a stipend to stay away from him. She

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Speaker 1: is arrested at one point for stealing from a man

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Speaker 1: at a bar, Humbert doesn't care to find out where

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Speaker 1: she is for a couple of days, and then it's

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Speaker 1: revealed that she didn't steal from anyone. The man at

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Speaker 1: the bar just said she did so it didn't look

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Speaker 1: like he was cheating on his wife. When Humbert gets

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Speaker 1: a job at a university for a year, he doesn't

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Speaker 1: let Read to live with him. Instead, he gets her

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Speaker 1: a trailer and a trailer park nearby because he thinks

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Speaker 1: that she'll embarrass him around his academic colleagues. He mocks

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Speaker 1: Rita's mother for thinking that he would ever marry her.

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Speaker 1: When Rita is sober, she reveals that she is terrified

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Speaker 1: of being abandoned. You get an added bonus if you

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Speaker 1: know who she is at the start of the book,

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Speaker 1: because fictional forward writer doctor John Ray tells us that

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Speaker 1: she's still alive and that she's married a hotel owner

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Speaker 1: in Florida. Kind of a weird full circle moment because

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Speaker 1: Humbert Humbert's father was a hotel owner. What we don't

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Speaker 1: know is whether she's sober or happy, or what she

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Speaker 1: thinks about her life, or what she thinks about Humbert Humbert,

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Speaker 1: because Humbert just didn't care. But Nabukov, even writing through

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Speaker 1: the careless lens of Humbert, still manages to tell us

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Speaker 1: a fair amount about the character, even though most readers

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Speaker 1: tend not to pick up on her. I found similar

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Speaker 1: details sticking out with Charlotte Hayes in the two references

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Speaker 1: to what appears to be the greatest trauma of Charlotte's life,

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Speaker 1: the loss of her baby son and becoming a single

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Speaker 1: mother in the nineteen forties after her husband Harold dies.

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Speaker 1: Humbert offhandedly mentions that Charlotte speaks of this lost son

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Speaker 1: often a boy who died at age two when Dolores

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Speaker 1: was a little older, which means that Dolores knew and

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Speaker 1: remembered this brother. When Charlotte admits her love for Humbert

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Speaker 1: in a letter, Humbert alludes to their being entire pages

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Speaker 1: about this lost son that he just flushes down the toilet.

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Speaker 1: He quite literally flushes these pages down the toilet. For

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Speaker 1: someone who claims to have a photographic memory for detail,

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Speaker 1: Humbert only seems to be able to clearly recall information

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Speaker 1: that make people he feels are in his way look bad,

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Speaker 1: and he forgets or glazes over anything that might endear

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Speaker 1: a reader to them. Think about how we may see

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Speaker 1: Charlotte a little differently if she were presented to us

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Speaker 1: as a woman who is struggling under the weight of

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Speaker 1: losing a child while having to raise a daughter on

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Speaker 1: her own. Now, I won't argue against the notion that

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Speaker 1: Charlotte seems to be a very flawed parent. She is impatient, unkind,

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Speaker 1: and yells at Dolores constantly and needlessly. But this behavior

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Speaker 1: is presented by Humbert mainly in a vacuum. Charlotte and

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Speaker 1: Dolores have suffered the loss of half of their family together,

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Speaker 1: and that reality is referenced only twice in the entire book.

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Speaker 1: How does Dolores feel about this? If she ever brings

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Speaker 1: it up to Humbert, which by his account, she wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have because she didn't trust him with anything personal, then

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Speaker 1: we never hear about it, which brings me back, as

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Speaker 1: it always does to Dolora's Hayes. Well, we're not reminded

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Speaker 1: of it very often. By age twelve, Dolora's Hayes has

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Speaker 1: lost her entire family. A common criticism of Lolita and

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Speaker 1: why it is yielded such garbage adaptations as as Dolores

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Speaker 1: is barely in the book. Humbrid is the protagonist, but

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Speaker 1: the continued fixation on who Dolores is in fan communities

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Speaker 1: in academics indicates to me that there is not an

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Speaker 1: insignificant look into who she is in the book's pages.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that these details are embedded in and

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Speaker 1: presented by the villain, who is offering up fifty times

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Speaker 1: more information about himself. There is at least enough for

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Speaker 1: her to be a character that hundreds of thousands have

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Speaker 1: attempted to reclaim in the past sixty five years. And

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Speaker 1: as painful and tragic as some of these details are,

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Speaker 1: after all we've talked about in this series, I did

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Speaker 1: find some comfort in finding details that we do have

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Speaker 1: about the few years of Dolores Hayes's life leading up

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Speaker 1: to her death, which took place less than a week

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Speaker 1: short of her becoming a legal adult. She's born on

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Speaker 1: January one and dies on Christmas Day in ninety two,

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Speaker 1: not quite getting to eighteen. Everything with her is cut

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Speaker 1: too short, but here are some details that stuck out

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Speaker 1: to meet this time around another list, if you'll indulge me,

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Speaker 1: Dolores doesn't like to be looked at when she's been crying.

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Speaker 1: She prefers privacy. She is naturally intelligent, and her ability

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Speaker 1: at school and when playing tennis and in the drama

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Speaker 1: club are complemented frequently by her teachers. Her school work

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Speaker 1: only really begins to suffer when her at home sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse becomes intolerable. When she's with the Humbred in public,

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Speaker 1: Dolores quickly develops a habit of, as Humbreed puts it, quote,

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Speaker 1: drawing in as many potential witnesses into her orbit as

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Speaker 1: she could unquote. I never noticed this before, but Dolores

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Speaker 1: is frequently trying to point out that something isn't right here.

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Speaker 1: They read to me now as early attempts to get

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Speaker 1: others around her to ask her if she's okay or

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Speaker 1: what's going on. She tries to convince Humbert to go

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Speaker 1: to movies with other families. She points out her license

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Speaker 1: plate to strangers to point out how far away she

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Speaker 1: is from home. When she's fourteen, Dolores learns how to

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Speaker 1: pretend to laugh at boys jokes at schools very relatable.

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Speaker 1: There's a scene where she throws a party, then when

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Speaker 1: it doesn't go as well as she wants it to,

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Speaker 1: she calls everyone who went a loser. She says, Oh,

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Speaker 1: those are the worst boys I've ever met, And for

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Speaker 1: a second it's like, oh, yeah, she's a fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old who's insecure that her party was kind of weird.

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Speaker 1: A moment that really stuck out to the point that

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Speaker 1: I can't believe I never noticed it before. Now, Humbert

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Speaker 1: cites one of Dolores's several friends at Beardsley, a girl

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Speaker 1: named Eva Rosen as a nymphant. It sounds like Dolores

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Speaker 1: and Eva spent quite a bit of time together, something

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Speaker 1: that Humbert would have been pervertedly obvious about enjoying, saying

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Speaker 1: many times in text that anyone he deemed to be

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Speaker 1: an infant in or out of Dolores's orbit he considered

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Speaker 1: to be ripe for objectification and harassment. Dolores, as Humbert

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Speaker 1: off handedly puts it, quote, dropped Eva for some reason,

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Speaker 1: before I had had any time to enjoy, in my

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Speaker 1: modest way, her fragrant presence in the open house. Unquote.

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Speaker 1: How I see this outcome now is Dolores knowing how

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Speaker 1: Humbert looks at and behaves towards potential prey, and she

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Speaker 1: protected her friend by getting rid of her. She makes

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Speaker 1: close friendships with girls her own age throughout the story,

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Speaker 1: and it's with them that we see she holds the

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Speaker 1: most trust. She loves movies. She goes through a phase

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Speaker 1: of bullying other students and teachers who get to go

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Speaker 1: on dates with other people, and again the school fails

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Speaker 1: her by going to her abuser for help. Dolores is

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Speaker 1: extremely active in her escape from Humbert. When Humbert realizes

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Speaker 1: that they're being followed, she erases the license plate number

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Speaker 1: that he writes down in secret. She tries to drive

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Speaker 1: their car away at one point to distract him. She

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Speaker 1: stays calm and determined to escape, as the rapist she

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Speaker 1: is traveling with is growing dangerously paranoid. She tells him

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Speaker 1: repeatedly she knows what is happening to her. To some extent,

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Speaker 1: she calls the enchanted hunters that hotel where you raped me.

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Speaker 1: She tells him she thinks that he old Charlotte and

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Speaker 1: wants to get away from him. She knows what's going on,

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Speaker 1: and in the end, Dolores escapes not because she's this

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Speaker 1: criminal genius, as some adaptations seem to imply. She escapes

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Speaker 1: because Humbert is not only not doing well. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: know that much about her, and by his admittance, he

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Speaker 1: finds her braddy and uninteresting and not that smart when

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Speaker 1: she isn't behaving under his control. Even Humbert admits this

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Speaker 1: by the end quote, I knew nothing about my darling's

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Speaker 1: mind unquote, because he didn't care to ask, and she

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Speaker 1: didn't trust him with anything personal. The final thing that

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Speaker 1: stood out to me is about Dolores and tennis. This

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Speaker 1: is brought up towards the end of the book. Even

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Speaker 1: though Dolores is the best tennis player at her school,

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Speaker 1: she never joins the team, partially because she's more interested

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Speaker 1: in drama club. But a teacher mentions that Dolores has

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Speaker 1: this habit of playing an amazing tennis game and then

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Speaker 1: letting someone else win at the last second. Why the

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Speaker 1: heck is she so polite? The coach asks, humbred, and

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Speaker 1: as usual, we don't learn why from Dolores. But it's

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Speaker 1: a small moment that just kicked me in the gut

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Speaker 1: this time. Tennis was something that Humbert had made her

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Speaker 1: take lessons in early on into her abduction, because he

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Speaker 1: wanted her to, she resisted. It ended up being pretty good,

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Speaker 1: but isn't comfortable or confident enough to squarely win the game,

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Speaker 1: even though she easily could even if she didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be a tennis player. This small moment says so much.

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Speaker 1: Her potential is unquestionably held back at this point in

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Speaker 1: her life by Humbert's control and presence. I wish we

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Speaker 1: knew more about her, but let's go over what we've got.

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Speaker 1: This is Lolita Podcast. Hello, and welcome to the final

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Speaker 1: episode of Lolita Podcast. My name's Jamie Loftus, and today

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the future of Dolores Hayes's legacy,

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Speaker 1: and I want to do so through revisiting interviews I've

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Speaker 1: done with a wide array of people. For this series,

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Speaker 1: I'll also be speaking to two filmmakers and cis a

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Speaker 1: survivors whose work I love, Eva Vivas and Jess Merwin,

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Speaker 1: and a cis a survivor and sex educator Zoe Ligan,

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Speaker 1: about what basics in sex education we are missing in

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Speaker 1: what we include in modern media. But before we get there,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to say one last thing on our boy,

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Speaker 1: nobukof this came up at length in our episode about

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Speaker 1: his life and his biography, but I still find myself

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Speaker 1: receiving a pretty large volume of questions about it, that

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Speaker 1: being why did Vladimir Nabokov Lolita? I Mean, the answer,

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Speaker 1: first of all is like, how the funk should I know?

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Speaker 1: But let's go with this. Nabokov was a flawed person,

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Speaker 1: which I tried to unpack in depth in our episode

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Speaker 1: on him, and he lived at the center of some

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Speaker 1: of the most traumatic events of the twenty century. And

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Speaker 1: nobody knows exactly why he wrote Lolita, but I do

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Speaker 1: think that the perspective that it was just to be

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Speaker 1: edgy or take a literary risk is a little bit

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Speaker 1: reductive based on his track record. That's likely a part

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Speaker 1: of the reason. But the reason that I'm always able

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Speaker 1: to think of Lolita the book as truly anti child

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Speaker 1: sex abuse is first because you're told that the narrator

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Speaker 1: is an irredeemable villain on nearly every single page, And

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Speaker 1: second because Vladimir Nabokov was subjected to sexual abuse as

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Speaker 1: a child, and while he never discussed it publicly at length,

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Speaker 1: it appears in his work constantly. Obviously, Nabokov doesn't strictly

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Speaker 1: write what he knows all the time, of course not

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Speaker 1: but Nabokov's primary biographer, Brian Boyd, mentions explicitly that Nabokov

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Speaker 1: was a victim of abuse from his uncle and his

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Speaker 1: two volume biography of the author. He also confirmed this

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Speaker 1: to me in an interview, and Nabokov mentions it himself

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Speaker 1: in his memoir Speak Memory. He would invariably take me

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Speaker 1: upon his knee after lunch, and while two young footmen

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Speaker 1: were clearing the table in the empty dining room, fondle

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Speaker 1: me with crooning sounds and fancy endearments. Readers of Lolita

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Speaker 1: will note that this exact scenario appears in the book's pages.

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Speaker 1: Humbert Humbert bounces twelve year old Dolores on his lap

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Speaker 1: the summer. He moves in with her and her mother

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Speaker 1: and ejaculates. Then tells the reader he's certain that she

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Speaker 1: hasn't noticed and there was no harm done. But listen

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Speaker 1: to how Humbert describes Dolores's behavior afterward. Quote immediately afterward,

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Speaker 1: as if we had been struggling, and now my grip

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Speaker 1: had eased, She rolled off the sofa and jumped to

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Speaker 1: her feet. To her foot rather in order to attend

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Speaker 1: to the formidably loud telephone that may have been ringing

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Speaker 1: for ages, as far as I was concerned. There she

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Speaker 1: stood and blinked, cheeks of flame, hair or wry, her

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Speaker 1: eyes passing over me lightly as they did over the furniture,

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Speaker 1: And as she listened or spoke, she kept tapping the

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Speaker 1: edge of the table with the slipper she held in

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Speaker 1: her hand. Blessed be the Lord, she had noticed nothing unquote.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't sound to me like a twelve year old

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Speaker 1: who has no idea what's going on. She's frazzled, nervous,

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Speaker 1: eager to get away from him while trying to remain calm,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that she knows what's happening is confirmed

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Speaker 1: two years later in the book, when Humbert and Dolores

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Speaker 1: argue before leaving Beardsley. She says explicitly in this scene

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Speaker 1: that Humbert has been molesting her since that summer. She

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Speaker 1: did know what was going on there, and in this scenario,

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Speaker 1: it seems pretty likely that Nabokov is seeing his own

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Speaker 1: experience in Dolores's not Humbert's. Themes of child sex abuse

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Speaker 1: appear in his work a staggering amount. We've recapped it

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Speaker 1: in the past. There's the Enchanter, the novella that was

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Speaker 1: a precursor to Lolita. There's odda a post Lolita work

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Speaker 1: that features a young girl being sexually abused by her

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Speaker 1: family members in nineteen sixty nine. The examples go on

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Speaker 1: and on, and while I think the misread of these

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Speaker 1: themes can be extremely harmful, the information we have about

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Speaker 1: Nabokov is more suggestive that he is working through experiences

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Speaker 1: where he was a victim. There's no example or implication

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Speaker 1: in anything I've ever read about him of his being abusive,

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Speaker 1: particularly towards children. I've received similar lines of questioning about

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Speaker 1: Nabokov's participation in the nineteen sixty two Stanley Kubrick adaptation.

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Speaker 1: Nabokov is credited as the writer of the screenplay and

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Speaker 1: was even nominated for an Oscar for it. Kubrick's Lolita

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Speaker 1: pretty squarely misses the point, as we've discussed in the

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Speaker 1: third episode of this show, but to assume that Nabokov's

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Speaker 1: script was the one that made it to the screen

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Speaker 1: would be to fundamentally misunderstand how these kinds of big

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Speaker 1: budget projects are produced. Nabokov wrote a number of drafts

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Speaker 1: of the screenplay. He wrote a squarely rejected four hour

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Speaker 1: draft of the Lowlida script in the sixties that was

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Speaker 1: understandably turned down than a two hour draft that he

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Speaker 1: was less enthusiastic about that still includes the John Ray Jr.

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Speaker 1: Unreliable narrator framing, and does portray Humbert as a villain,

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Speaker 1: not quite as explicitly as it does in the book,

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Speaker 1: but it's still clear he's an abuser. Neither of these

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Speaker 1: drafts appear on screen in really any way. Nabokoff is

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Speaker 1: credited for contract reasons and because Stanley Kubrick and producer

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Speaker 1: slash rapist James Harris were smart enough to know that

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Speaker 1: having the author's name on the script increased the legitimacy

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Speaker 1: of their project. But it's pretty well documented that the

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Speaker 1: shooting script was written by Stanley Kubrick and James Harris,

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Speaker 1: not in a book off. Of course, that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that Nabulkoff didn't eventually capitulate to what had clearly become

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Speaker 1: the dominant cultural narrative surrounding Lolita. Here's an interview from

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Speaker 1: the Paris Review in nine seven Humbert. Humbert is a

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Speaker 1: vain and cruel wretch who manages to appear touching that epithet,

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Speaker 1: and it's true tear iridis sense can only apply to

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Speaker 1: my poor girl. No ambiguity there. Same goes with how

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Speaker 1: he displayed his anger about Humbert's word nymphete was translated

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Speaker 1: in the dictionary. I think the harmful drudges who defined

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Speaker 1: today in popular dictionaries the word nymphete as a very

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Speaker 1: young but sexually attractive girl without any additional comment or reference,

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Speaker 1: should have their knuckles wrapped. But as time goes on,

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Speaker 1: it appears that Nabokov becomes a little more resigned to

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Speaker 1: and at times even somewhat permissive of how Dolores hayes

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Speaker 1: his character and meshes into the cultural consciousness. Towards the

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Speaker 1: end of his life, there are some examples of him

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Speaker 1: starting to refer to Dolores in the same flowery, nymph

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Speaker 1: like language that Humbert does. No, I shall never regret Lolita.

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Speaker 1: She was like the composition of a beautiful puzzle, its

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Speaker 1: composition and its solution at the same time, since one

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Speaker 1: is a mirror view of the other, depending on the

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Speaker 1: way you look of core. She completely eclipsed my other works,

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Speaker 1: at least those I wrote in English. The real life

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Speaker 1: of Sebastian Night, Ben Sinister, my short stories, my book

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Speaker 1: of recollections. But I cannot grudge her this. There is

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Speaker 1: a queer, tender charm about that mythical nymphete. He also

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Speaker 1: ends up easing up on his adamants that no young

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Speaker 1: girls appear on the cover of his most famous work.

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Speaker 1: We can speculate on why this was. He never gives

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Speaker 1: a reason. It just sort of happens over time. The

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Speaker 1: Book of is a person who can really slip through

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Speaker 1: your fingers once you think you understand him. Often within

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Speaker 1: the same interview, he'll defend Dolores one moment, then say

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Speaker 1: his work is completely a political and he doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: one way or the other the next. Here's another quote

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Speaker 1: from the nine seven Paris Review interview, when he was

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Speaker 1: asked about his quote unquote sense of immorality about the

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Speaker 1: relationship between Lolita and Humbert. No, it is not my

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Speaker 1: sense of the immorality of the Humbered Humbled Lolita relationship

424
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: that is strong. It is Humbert, since he cares, I

425
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 1: do not I do not give a damn for public

426
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 1: morals in America or elsewhere. Nabokov will usually distance himself

427
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: from his work morally and personally. But it's undoubtedly true

428
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: that some of the themes of his work overlap with

429
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: his lived experience. How you can claim to write about

430
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: child sex abuse a politically is kind of beyond me.

431
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: But my point is Nabokov's attitudes towards his own work

432
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: and his most famous character fluctuated. But what is unfortunately

433
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: true is that defending Dolores Hayes is a full time job.

434
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: I can attest to that, and it would have been

435
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: a difficult task to hold up while continuing to write

436
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: other books. On top of that. The cultural Lolita figure

437
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: is part of what made Nabokov rich and able to

438
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: retire from teaching to write in a European hotel until

439
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: his death. Of course, much of this should be attributed

440
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 1: to his also being a brilliant writer, but he'd been

441
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: a brilliant writer for decades, and it wasn't until this controversy,

442
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: this cultural sensation, the movie adaptations, and the mass misunderstanding

443
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: of who Dolores Hayes and Humbert Humbert are that he

444
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: was suddenly set for life. I mean, it's it's a

445
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: little depressing if the general public understood Humbert Humbert to

446
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: be an unrepentant abuser instead of a potentially redeemable tragic hero,

447
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: and Dolores Hayes was an abused child instead of this

448
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: mastermind seductress. Who knows how that would have affected the

449
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: story's ability to generate money. Back in the nineteen fifties

450
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 1: and sixties, in the Book of Loved Chess, he dabbled

451
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,959
Speaker 1: in composing new chess problems throughout his life, and in

452
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: one of his early novels that Lose in Defense, the

453
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: ark of the story essentially becomes the novelization of a

454
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: chess problem. That's not true of Lolita. But there's no

455
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: doubt that Humbert Humbert is playing a game with the reader,

456
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: and he's employing quite a bit of strategy and how

457
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: he's playing it. His goal isn't to win it chess.

458
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: It's I think, to get you to empathize with him

459
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: enough to believe that he genuine when the loved Dolores Hayes,

460
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: and that abuse was an unfortunate part of that tragic love.

461
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: His goal, his game is to win you over. And

462
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: the first time I read Lolita, I lost that game.

463
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: I was twelve, and on top of obviously not being

464
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: a very sophisticated reader, I was surrounded by pop culture

465
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: and people that were not really challenging of the power

466
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: dynamics between Dolores and Humbert. The only reactions I got

467
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: to having the book at that age were either oh

468
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: my God, don't read that, or it's not that big

469
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: a deal. Just read it. No one knew how to

470
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: or wanted to talk to me about it. In school,

471
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: we got warned about the bodily threat of strangers, but

472
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: certainly not the bodily threat of people. We knew the

473
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: first time I read this book, I just didn't have

474
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: the tools to recognize what was wrong with this power dynamic.

475
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: I read love story on the cover, I read Lemony

476
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: Snicket loves this book, and I went from there. And

477
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 1: this mass misunderstanding is no one individual's fault. It's not

478
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: Nabokov's fault. It's not Lemony Snake It's fault. It's not

479
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: Lana del Rey's fault. It's not my parents, it's not

480
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: my teacher. It's a lot of systems and individuals within

481
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: those systems that had to be disinterested enough or too

482
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: uncomfortable to talk to a kid about this sort of

483
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: abuse in order for me to take Humbert at his

484
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: word for years. So if you misread Lolita on the

485
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 1: first try, particularly if you were doing so as a

486
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: young person connecting with Dolores, it's okay to forgive yourself

487
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: for being ill equipped and to move forward. That's what

488
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to do. So is it worthwhile to attempt

489
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: to adapt this story again to arrive at an answer?

490
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: I went back through the interviews I've done for this show,

491
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: and I wanted to share a couple of insights that

492
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,719
Speaker 1: stuck out to me. First, here's been du Bonsana, author

493
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: of the essay how Lolita Freed Me from my own Humbert.

494
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's definitely relevant to public discussion now. Unfortunately,

495
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: as long as these kinds of things exist, I think

496
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: it always will be. Um and sorry of the first

497
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: part of your question about adaptations, it would um. Yeah.

498
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: I mean I think that a lot of the new

499
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: literature around it is kind of in a way adapting

500
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: it but telling it from the pov of woman, whether

501
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: it's nonfiction and it's someone who identified with the text,

502
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: or I feel like it's very common. I see it

503
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: where the abuser gives um a woman, a young woman

504
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: this book because they think it's romantic um and normalizes. Yeah,

505
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: because they're doing they give it as it like, you know,

506
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: to normalize and kind of um, I don't know, make

507
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: their you know, their gross actions seem kind of like

508
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: forbidden and whatever. So yeah, Um, So I think that,

509
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: you know, there's ways to responsibly adapt it, and I

510
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: feel like those would be not only still relevant, helpful, um,

511
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: because I feel like there's a lot of course correction

512
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: that needs to be done a round around the novel

513
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: and its legacy. Here's a little bit of a conversation

514
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: I had with Dr Lucia Williams, founder of LAPREV, the

515
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: Laboratory for Violent Analysis and Prevention in Brazil, about what

516
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: a new adaptation would need to course correct in order

517
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: to succeed, because I think that people don't understand about

518
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse enough. For example, they think that it's rare,

519
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: they think that it's hardly ever happens, and it's very

520
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: very very common. Right. Of course, there's different degrees. You know,

521
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: it could be something very mild, it could be something

522
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: that was very intense and lasted for years like in

523
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: her case, So and that they don't understand the complexity

524
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: the dynamics, how hard it is for the child to speak,

525
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, how hard it is for the judicial system

526
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: to deal with a crime like that. That you have

527
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: the witness who is a little child and uh and

528
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: you have an adult who is very powerful. We've come

529
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: a long way having protocols, you know, to to talk

530
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: to to interview kids so that we don't contaminate the

531
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: data and all that, but it's not something that you know,

532
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: everybody knows. Here is Sarah Weinman, author of The Real Lolita,

533
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: who has also reported on Sue Lyon's abuse at the

534
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: hands of James Harris. The adaptation of Lolita that I

535
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,959
Speaker 1: have been able to source has ever been spearheaded by

536
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: a woman. It's all been the province of men. And

537
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,479
Speaker 1: so if it was entirely female driven, what kind of

538
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: Lolita adaptation would result? So that's what I would want

539
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: to see. I think it's possible. Just like when there

540
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: have been sort of book rewrites or homages to Lolita,

541
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: the one that have worked the best are written by women,

542
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: and Alison would, author of the memoir being Lolita, I

543
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: believe that an adaptation Lolita would need to be met

544
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: with a critical eye, a feminist point of view, and

545
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: an understanding of the cultural context of Lolita and what

546
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: it means today. So I wonder if maybe an adaptation

547
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: of Lolita is really more so like maybe a story

548
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: like mine MHM, which is sort of the real story

549
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: and acknowledging the danger that it has while also trying

550
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: to respect and admire the work of art that it

551
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: stems from. I don't know if if adapting Lolita by

552
00:31:52,840 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: Daddy lad is a worthy cause anymore, but if if

553
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: some badass feminists wanted to do it, I'd be here

554
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: for it. Not everyone's going to agree on this, and

555
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: I certainly understand the counter argument, but I do think

556
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: that it's possible to make a good adaptation of Lolita,

557
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: But to do it right, and to do it ethically,

558
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: and to get the financial support needed for an adaptation

559
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: to make the same level of impact that a Kubrick

560
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: or a Line adaptation did would be an absolute hell

561
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: of an uphill battle in order to ensure that Dolores's

562
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: reality is presented to an audience. I'm very on board

563
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: with what Bin do, Sarah and Alison describe. You need

564
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: to build a team like this carefully include survivors and

565
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: specialized therapists, and not prioritize making Humbered likable and marketable

566
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: above making it clear that he's a child sex abuser.

567
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: I also feel that given the experiences that girls and

568
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: women have had playing Lolita or comparable roles where they

569
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: are abused, pose is a gigantic risk in live action,

570
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: a risk I think is too great to chance. So

571
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: the way I see this working is as an animated movie,

572
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: and in terms of telling the viewer who the unreliable

573
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: narrator is, I think animation honestly works better. It's all

574
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: easier said than done, because that's not even talking about

575
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: getting it released, but I do think it's possible and

576
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: that it could be worthwhile. So I wanted to talk

577
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,479
Speaker 1: to people who could speak on how to move forward

578
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: in this arena, whether it's with adapting Lolita or just

579
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: taking steps to course correct the cognitive dissonance that exists

580
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: around addressing child sex abuse in media. To talk a

581
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: little bit about her experience with Lolita and what she

582
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: feels needs to change about sex education in order to

583
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: prevent stories like Lolita from being received for anything less

584
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: than what they are. I spoke to my friend Zoe Ligan.

585
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen. Hello, I'm Zoe Ligan, and I

586
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 1: am a sex educator, a journalist, an author. I recently

587
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: published Carnal Knowledge, sex Education you didn't get in school

588
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: with my friend Elizabeth Renstrom. And I also sell sex

589
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: toys for a living. I've had my own sex toy

590
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: company for five years now. Um, but a lot of

591
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: what I do is really kind of like entertainment combined

592
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: with education, So I've been calling myself a sex edutaine

593
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: or lately. I believe I stumbled upon the nineties film

594
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: version the Adrian Lion rendition of Lolita in a similar

595
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 1: fashion to you. I believe I was, you know, also

596
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: watching the multipart YouTube thing in my um my bedroom,

597
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, like checking the door to make sure nobody

598
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: came in. Um. I definitely remember being aware of how

599
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: taboo it was, but also thinking, wow, this is so hot,

600
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 1: And what's so weird about it is that I don't

601
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: even remember whether I've read the book or not. I

602
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: feel as though I was already aware of the differences

603
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: between the book and the movie, so for that reason,

604
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: I think I may have read it at some point,

605
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: But um, one thing that childhood trauma does to you

606
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: is completely wipes out your memory of some things. So

607
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: I don't know how much of it is just that

608
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: UM and I guess I should say I didn't think

609
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: it was hot. But I was also a young uh

610
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: I was. I was fourteen when I started dating an

611
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: eighteen year old and obviously, you know four years is

612
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: not as much of an age difference as Lolita and Humbert. However,

613
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: at those very formative years, it was like I was

614
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: in a relationship with an adult um and I really

615
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 1: it was in a lot of relationships with older men

616
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: where I had no concept of how the age difference

617
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: alone is just a prime environment for abuse when someone

618
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: has power over you. And regardless of how mature I felt,

619
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: it's like there is no way to have a equal

620
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: relationship when there is a huge power imbalance, and in

621
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: most cases there is. It's so hard to leave the

622
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: cycle of abuse, especially when you're just so much looking

623
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 1: forward to that like green zone or safe zone of like, oh,

624
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: I'm being adored and showered with love and gifts, And

625
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 1: this can happen in any relationship. We're not just talking

626
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: about once with a huge age disparity or you know,

627
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: inappropriate relationship chips. But uh, you're always going to be

628
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: going back to the the yellow zone where you're like

629
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: walking on eggshells, knowing something bad is going to happen,

630
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: and then of course like the red zone where the

631
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: actual abuse is going down, and then you go back

632
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: to the green zone. Apologies, I'm so sorry, I'm never

633
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: going to do this again. And when you're just really

634
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,959
Speaker 1: programmed into that pattern, you get used to that roller

635
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: coaster ride. But even in consensual adult relationships, this is

636
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: a thing. So then when you put that huge age

637
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: disparity into it, it's so hard to leave. For me, Uh,

638
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: entering a relationship at the age of fourteen with someone

639
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: much older than me was a way I could say

640
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: to my father, who was my abuser, like I am

641
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: somebody else's sexual property, so you can't look at me

642
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: the same way you used to. Um. Not being sexualized

643
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: by my father was very important to me, So I

644
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: would always be, you know, just hiding my body, just

645
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 1: trying to avoid anything that made me seem adult in

646
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: any way. UM, and then that energy was all refocused

647
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: onto my abusive teenage relationship. It's not as simple as

648
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, comprehensive sex education. I had comprehensive sex education,

649
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 1: didn't talk about you know, boundaries or a pleasure. But um,

650
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: you know, to my school district, you know, we talked

651
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 1: about anatomy and stuff, and I still, you know, fell

652
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: into very abusive dynamics. Um, it's really difficult to create

653
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: any change when you know, even if you have a

654
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: parent who's supporting you with all the information you need,

655
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: or school is supporting you, doesn't matter if the media

656
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: around you is sending you the polar opposite messages. And

657
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: I personally think that we often use porn as a

658
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: scapegoat in media for all of the harmful messages we

659
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: have about sex. Absolutely, there is a lot of porn

660
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: that depicts abuse and rape, and it's all over the internet,

661
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: given our free streaming access to porn, although that is

662
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: changing due to Sesta FOSTA other legislation that is far

663
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: more recent than that. Total side note, porn is a

664
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: medium is not to blame for all the messed up

665
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: messages we have about sex. It is the individual directors,

666
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: producers and you know, white men at the top of

667
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: the food chain, at least up until recently, when we

668
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: have a more performer centric model of porn with things

669
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: like only fans, many bids, etcetera. I think what makes

670
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: me feel so sad about the sex education I didn't

671
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: receive is how I missed all of the messaging around

672
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: UM bodily autonomy. I knew about the function of sex

673
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: and pregnancy when it came to like knowing that my

674
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: body is my body and you know, I don't have

675
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: to hug uncle so and so if I don't want to.

676
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 1: And we see this all the time with kids, where

677
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: there's this assumption like, oh, your family like you can

678
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: sit on their lap, you can, you can do all

679
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: these things or it's like even things like tickling for

680
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: me was a big one where tickling was used in

681
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: a very inappropriate way to touch me in very inappropriate

682
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: places that I had no understanding that that was that

683
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: was a boundary I was allowed to set with my body,

684
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: even with my own family members. So sex education can

685
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: really start from, you know, the beginning of life, because

686
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: sex education isn't literally about sex. It's about UH protecting

687
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: your body, bodily autonomy and UM feeling comfortable in it.

688
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 1: And I m I'm a person who still dissociates from

689
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: their body To this day, it's it's so hard to

690
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: feel comfortable in your own skin when it's been violated,

691
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: even even if it wasn't in a sexual way, if

692
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: your body was violated at a young age, it is

693
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: so hard to know how to set those boundaries, how

694
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: to notice say this makes me feel icky or uncomfortable.

695
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: And furthermore, using the actual names for body parts when

696
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: you're teaching children about their bodies, you don't it doesn't

697
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: have to be an inappropriate thing to just tell your

698
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: kid this is your penis, this is your vulva, instead

699
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: of using words like huha or thingy, because then if

700
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: something does happen, your child does have the vocabulary to say,

701
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: this is what happened to me, and it's not going

702
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: to be enshrouded in shame that they've picked up on

703
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: from you as a parent or guardian. And so much

704
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: of that also has to do with like the gender

705
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: roles we project onto our kids. And you know, like

706
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: saying to a kid like, oh, he's gonna be a

707
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: real heartbreaker when he grows up is so creepy, but

708
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: it's not seen as creepy because you know, it's like

709
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 1: it's just a joke. But you are still projecting adult

710
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: sexuality onto a child when you make remarks about that.

711
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: And again, I would never shame an individual parent for

712
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: making a remark like that. I think it's really, um

713
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 1: a common thing to make you know, like silly little

714
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: like oh they're flirting, or you know, like, oh, is

715
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: that your girlfriend from elementary school? Like that is so common,

716
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: and it's like saying this in this context, it's obviously

717
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: so creepy, but I don't think anybody is even cognizant

718
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: of the messages that that sends children and um. And

719
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 1: when it comes to gender roles, also like teaching your kid,

720
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, no matter how your kid identifies, like if

721
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: you are a boy and you know you want to

722
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 1: go cry, you want to play with dolls, Like I'm

723
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: not going to tell you what you can play with

724
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: or how you can behave based on your gender identity

725
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 1: or the gender you are assigned at birth. UM. And

726
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: conversely like letting your girls, letting your non binary children

727
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: just do whatever the heck they want and express themselves

728
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 1: however they want, you know, again within reasonable boundaries. UM. However,

729
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: we do have to keep this in mind that we

730
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 1: are talking about like a cyclical issue that happens throughout

731
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: generations and um, you know even with alcoholism and an

732
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: abuse and and that genetically carrying through generations. But on

733
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: top of that, just like the way we choose to

734
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: to heal from our abuse, we can really send such

735
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: a strong message to kids that empower them. And again,

736
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be a long talk. They're gonna

737
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 1: learn so much more from watching you confidently set your

738
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: own boundaries. You know, like oh God, like sex is

739
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: a big deal, and like we have to like sit

740
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: aside at time to talk about It's like no, it's

741
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: it's so baked into our society that it has to

742
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: be baked into parenting as well. If we're going to

743
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: provide context to understand, you know, the book covered to Lolita.

744
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,919
Speaker 1: I think there's a huge difference between you know, being

745
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 1: able to identify those things on your own, or you're

746
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: me and you're seeing that and romanticizing it because you

747
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: don't have any other context, right, And I know there's

748
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 1: a lot of people who share that that feeling when

749
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: they first saw any version of Lolita that wasn't the

750
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: original book. I don't think I could have read the book.

751
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: I don't know that I would have, even with the

752
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: nuanced contextual clues, picked up on the reality of it,

753
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: because I was so used to defending my own abusers

754
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: talking about child to sexual abuse as being something that

755
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: can happen to any kid, not just little girls, not

756
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: just little white girls, and furthermore that it can be

757
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: from any gender of adult. I have been asking everybody,

758
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: do you think it is possible to adapt Lolita into

759
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: something that is culturally useful as opposed to kind of

760
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 1: what we've seen so far. I'm sure that there has

761
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 1: been attempts made at this, you know, nothing that's made

762
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: it um to the big screen, so to speak. But

763
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: it's one and you know, it's been like twenty five

764
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: years since the last film rendition of this. Is it

765
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: possible to revive the narrative in a way that is

766
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: true to the text? I I would like to think so.

767
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: I think the question is will society be ready to

768
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: receive it, because, as we know, and you mentioned before,

769
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: the male directors clearly read the book and we're completely

770
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: lost to the subtext. So yeah, I'm sure the same

771
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: could be true for the movie. But I think it's possible.

772
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: I would love to watch a movie like that, and

773
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: I also just want to see more movies that are addressing, um,

774
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: you know, adolescent sexuality in a healthy, non exploitative way.

775
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Zoe for her time. You can find

776
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: her at Thongaria on all platforms and check out her

777
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: store Spectrum Boutique. There have been attempts to reconcile not

778
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: just with the legacy of Lolita, but challenging romanticizing abuse

779
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: narratives in a number of mediums over the years. In fact,

780
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: there's two novels written by women that attempt to tell

781
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: the events of Lolita from Dolores's perspective. There is novel

782
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: Lowe's Diary by Italian writer Pia Para, who portrays Dolores

783
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: as a sadist and manipulator that implies that not only

784
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: was Humbert Humbert not too bad of a guy, but

785
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: he was also taking it easy on how my she

786
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: demonized Dolores in the original book. Dmitrina Buko, Vladimir's son,

787
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: sued for copyright infringement to No avail. Miss Lola, who

788
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: I've spoken with on the show before, has an excellent

789
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 1: analysis of this really wildly misguided book that I will

790
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: link in the description don't recommend. There's also Roger fish Bite,

791
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: written by Emily Praeger as a full on parody of

792
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: the original novel. She updates the story, taking it out

793
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: of the forties. She calls Lolita Lucky and Humbert fish Bite,

794
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,439
Speaker 1: and the story is narrated by Lucky. I haven't read

795
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: this book and so I can't speak to it, but

796
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: it didn't make much of a wave in its time

797
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: and definitely wasn't considered the feminist reimagining of Lolita that

798
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 1: it seemed to be trying for both of these works,

799
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 1: though it sounds like Roger fish Bite is a more

800
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 1: satirical version, marketed themselves on the basis of being an

801
00:47:55,320 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: inverted Lolita and updated Lolita, and on and on, because

802
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: all of them assume that the resolution to a story

803
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 1: narrated by a child sex abuser is for the abuse

804
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: to actually be not that bad. That the way to

805
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: create an active and identifiable protagonist in Dolores is to

806
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: make her the bad guy. This is beyond misguided. It

807
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: makes the abuse from Humbert have little to no impact,

808
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: It increases our sympathy for the abuser, and it telegraphs

809
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: that young people being abused had better become a wise,

810
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 1: beyond their years, hypercriminal mastermind in order to survive. Oh

811
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: and it will also mean that you were the villain.

812
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: This mentality has been presented as reclaiming over and over,

813
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: and it can be really campy and a cathartic idea

814
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 1: to reimagine your abuse where you had more agency, more

815
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: power than you actually may have. But as it pertains

816
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: to Lolita in particular, it reads far more like get

817
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: translation of how the general public thought of Dolores already.

818
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: In general, I think that audiences are so upset to

819
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: see the reality of abused children in any media format

820
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: that it's an easier sell to somehow implicate the child

821
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: in the crime. Dmitri Nabulkov was messy in many ways,

822
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: but opposing Lowe's diary was a really smart hill to

823
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: die on. One notable exception from this era there's Paula

824
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: Vogel's Pulitzer winning play How I Learned to Drive From

825
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: It's been recommended to me extensively, and I finally gotten

826
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: a chance to read it last week. This play is

827
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: the most successful, moving and complicated depiction of grooming, incest, shame,

828
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 1: and failure to intervene from those trusted adults that I've

829
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: ever read in a dramatic format. The lead of the show,

830
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 1: little Bits as she's called, tells us the story of

831
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: her being groomed by her uncle, who was a child

832
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,919
Speaker 1: sex abuser and child pornographer who was also suffering from

833
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: PTSD from his service in World War two. Little Bits

834
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: feels deeply ashamed of being abused confused about her feelings

835
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: towards her uncle while coming of age in the nineties seventies.

836
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil too much about the show,

837
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: but it's a really moving piece that allows its protagonist

838
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: to process abuse over time and then at the end

839
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 1: to survive the experience. Recommended reading. Also. Mary Louise Parker

840
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 1: was in the most famous production of this play, and

841
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: she is my crush. But those are books from the nineties.

842
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: More recently, I've read two fiction books from the past

843
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: ten years that seek to challenge the romance that the

844
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: reception of Lolita normalized. Both of these books deal with

845
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: a teacher grooming and underage student, and they do so

846
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: through the eyes of female characters. One narrator is a predator,

847
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: the other is a survivor. The first is Tampa by

848
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: Elissa Nutting, who full disclosure, is my friend and former boss.

849
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: I love her a lot. She writes essentially a female Humbert,

850
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: an unrepentant child sex abuser, teaching eighth grade English and

851
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: assaulting her young student. This protagonist, Celeste, narrates the book

852
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: similar to how Humbert does regularly steamrolling over her victim's trauma,

853
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: amongst other similarities that I don't want to give full

854
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: spoilers for. It is a tough read, and it's supposed

855
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 1: to be, but I thought that the execution was really effective.

856
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 1: It's the first time I experienced a narrative where a

857
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: female child sex abuser is presented as just that. Celeste

858
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: is knowingly benefiting from the quote unquote too pretty for

859
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: prison complex, which was a term famously applied to deborall

860
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 1: of faith an attractive, white, twenty four year old teacher

861
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: who assaulted a fourteen year old male student. Tampa explores

862
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: the ways that society treats an adult woman assaulting an

863
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,919
Speaker 1: underage boy very differently than the reverse, as well as

864
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: the vast privilege that celest benefits from strictly by being white, attractive,

865
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: and married to a cop. Nothing did a talk with

866
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay When the book was first released in and

867
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: it generated quite a bit of controversy At the time.

868
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: Game mentioned that the writing style kind of evoked Lolita

869
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: for her, and nothing replied with this. This type of

870
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: story is so often fetishized in the popular media, and

871
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: that got me thinking about the lack of novels whose

872
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: protagonists are female predators, particularly sexual predators. There's a void there,

873
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: and it's a conversation I felt compelled to start. I

874
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: committed to the explicitness before I even began writing the book.

875
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 1: In my mind, there was never a question of whether

876
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: or not it was essential. If I was going to

877
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 1: portray a dangerous character, I had to invest the text

878
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 1: with the full amount of that danger, or it wouldn't

879
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 1: be a just representation to be successful. I knew that

880
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: the book had to make readers feel exceptionally uncomfortable, otherwise

881
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: I'd be whitewashing the topic. I'd actually go so far

882
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,720
Speaker 1: as to say our culture has a really hard time

883
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: casting females as sexual predators of male victims, even when

884
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: the male is under age. If a thirteen fourteen year

885
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: old boy sleeps with an adult female, there can be

886
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: this narrative surrounding the act of it being a positive

887
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: learning experience for him. That sort of attitude would never

888
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: be applied toward a thirteen or fourteen year old girl.

889
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 1: The other book is My Dark Vanessa by Kate Elizabeth Russell,

890
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: published in Russell's text interacts with Lolita throughout the entire story.

891
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 1: It is another story of grooming by a teacher, this

892
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 1: time a male teacher, narrated by his teenage student Vanessa,

893
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 1: who is assaulted by him over a course of years.

894
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: The book jumps in timeline from his initial aiding the

895
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: relationship into thousand, all the way through when an adult

896
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: Vanessa is still struggling to see herself as a victim

897
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: at the dawn of the Me Too movement. In Vanessa,

898
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: we have a different kind of unreliable narrator. She's a

899
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: person who has experienced child sex abuse but is still

900
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: in contact with her abuser years later. She is someone

901
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: who is still processing a lot of trauma and figuring

902
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 1: out how to navigate it. I won't give any more spoilers,

903
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: but I found the book to be incredibly moving, and

904
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 1: as Dolorus is often presented to us as an imperfect victim,

905
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that Vanessa doesn't fit cleanly into the

906
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: triumphant me two headlines, and that she struggles when interacting

907
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 1: with other survivors of assault, as well as the limitations

908
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: of that movement. Kate Elizabeth Russell's use of Lalita an

909
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: attachment to Dolorous Hayes echoes the sentiments of a lot

910
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: of people I've spoken to, as well as myself. Here's

911
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,240
Speaker 1: what she said about Dolores in an interview to promote

912
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: the book in I saw a lot of similarities between

913
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,359
Speaker 1: her and me. Some of them were superficial, like we're

914
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: both from New England. But also she's lazy and moody,

915
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,399
Speaker 1: and she has a good sense of humor. You can

916
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: find snippets of her real personality if you read the

917
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 1: novel closely, and I did because I was always looking

918
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 1: for her. The other thing that really stuck out to

919
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 1: me about My Dark Vanessa is that Lolita by Nabokov

920
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: is used as a grooming tool by the predatory teacher,

921
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: who presents Nabokov's work to the fifteen year old Vanessa

922
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 1: as a love story, and she reads it that way

923
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 1: like most of us did. This fictional account reflects the

924
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: experience of many people who have reached out to me,

925
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 1: including Alison Wood, who wrote about being groomed by an

926
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 1: abusive teacher using Lolita in her memoir Being Lolita. And

927
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: it's here where I get to the absolute edge of

928
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: wishing the book didn't exist. The fact that abusers can

929
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 1: and have used the book to groom and harm people

930
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: is fucking terrifying. And in the fictional world of My

931
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: Dark Vanessa and in Woods's real life story in Being Lolita,

932
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 1: the teenagers being abused only realized that Lolita has been

933
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: framed to them in the most disingenuous, harmful way possible

934
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 1: once they are out of their abusers clutches. I would

935
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: also recommend memoirs about CISA in general to better understand

936
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 1: why Lolita's false legacy is so harmful. In addition to

937
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 1: Being Lolita, I really connected with Wendy c ortiz is Excavation,

938
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: which also engages directly with Lolita as a real life

939
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 1: grooming tool, or other memoirs about CISA and adult life,

940
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: including Elizabeth Smarts My Story or I Know Why the

941
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: Cage Bird Sings by Maya Angelou. And even so, every

942
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 1: book and play I just described explores a very narrow

943
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 1: perspective in the grand scheme of things, They're all about

944
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: the abuse of able bodied SIS, white teenagers, just as

945
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: Lolita is. These narratives are important, and they're being effectively told.

946
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely moves things forward, but it always bears repeating that

947
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: there is an urgent need to expand the scope of

948
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 1: stories that are given focus as it pertains to child

949
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 1: sex abuse, whether that means in publishing or movies or

950
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: plays or the fucking news. What always needs to enter

951
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: this conversation is the absolute necessity for making room for

952
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: all kinds of survivors of abuse. We've discussed this in

953
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: pieces across this series. There is still a dearth of media,

954
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: both in reporting and in narrative projects, reflecting these stories,

955
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: of displaying equally if not more common examples of abuse. Narratives.

956
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: Even now cis A narratives are more likely to address

957
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: the abuse of c S white characters. Even now cis

958
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: A narratives almost never address the sexual abuse of boys,

959
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: or when they do, it's framed as a conquest or

960
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: a joke instead of serious abuse. Even now cis A

961
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: narratives most often exclude stories of gay teens, trans teens,

962
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: non binary teens. The landscape of these movies is extremely straight,

963
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 1: or if there is a queer character, they are often

964
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: framed as the predator. Even now, C s A narratives

965
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: are less likely to reflect the abuse of black girls

966
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: or include black directors, even though black girls and women

967
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: are far more likely to be sexually abused. Even now,

968
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: C s A narratives in popular media don't make space

969
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 1: for abuse experienced by Asian girls or address the cultural

970
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: trends in some anime and certainly in LOLLYCN content to

971
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: hyper sexualize and fetishize their bodies. There's an amazing video

972
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: by video essayist Mina Lee about how the Japanese schoolgirl

973
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: aesthetic was taken from teenagers and flipped to a very

974
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 1: lowly to end. Actually, these male lead narratives said, teenagers

975
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 1: are just dressing up to seduce older men, and that's feminist.

976
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: When it's like, no, teenage girls were just trying to

977
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: wear clothes. Why is that so difficult? Even now, C

978
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: s A narratives rarely addres us the abuse of Indigenous

979
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: girls and women, even though one in two experienced sexual

980
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 1: violence at some point in their lives, according to a

981
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: UN report from so even in a world where we

982
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: get low lad A right in adaptation, that's only a start.

983
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: The inability or unwillingness to have a discussion on this

984
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 1: topic in our culture have scores that reach out in

985
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: every direction. So much of the most common types of

986
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: c s A are not reflected at all in media,

987
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: and when they are, it's far less likely that they're

988
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: going to receive the same amount of support in marketing

989
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 1: and distribution. A lot of why these conversations are prevented

990
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: from being started or considered is because they don't line

991
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: up with the goals of capitalism. To do so, Feminism

992
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: has historically centered assist white women overwhelmingly, often at the

993
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: expense and oppression of everyone else, and that applies to

994
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: cs A survivors as well. My next interview is with

995
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: my friend and a brilliant artist and teacher, Jess Merwin.

996
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: Jess is a non binary, mixed in digit queer. They're Micma, Scottish,

997
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: Irish and Welsh and a filmmaker, educator and curator based

998
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: in Montreal. They also have a background in film programming

999
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 1: and have seen a lot of movies that attempted to

1000
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 1: explore abuse with mixed results. I was really excited to

1001
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: hear their insights and to share some of our interview here.

1002
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 1: You know, you talked about like coming in contact with like, uh,

1003
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 1: Lolita is like, you know, a twelve year old, Like

1004
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: you know, I was reading uh, you know, Alice in

1005
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: Wonderland and like all that sort of stuff. So, um,

1006
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,959
Speaker 1: I kind of like went into reading the book. I think,

1007
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 1: maybe not as naive as somebody who was like picking

1008
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: it up for like the first time, who might have

1009
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: been younger, right, Um, Like I very intentionally sort of

1010
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 1: sought it out because it was I had studied literature,

1011
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: and you know, it was like this great work of

1012
01:00:54,680 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: um even though like I had experienced child had sexual abuse,

1013
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: My personal story is so different to that of Lolita,

1014
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: so I didn't I think I didn't really form like

1015
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: a strong attachment to Dolores or to to the story

1016
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: of Lolita. Kind of for that reason. It was like

1017
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: it was kind of like this weird thing where like

1018
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 1: I was very dissociated when I read the book, and

1019
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: like dissociated not necessarily just because of the subject matter,

1020
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 1: but like I looked at it as like being like

1021
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 1: an academic experience. And I kind of regret that now

1022
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 1: because like you know, from from even just like listening

1023
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 1: to you talk about it and interview people about it,

1024
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 1: like there is so much more richness to the book,

1025
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: and I just sort of looked at it very coldly,

1026
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: as like a thing that I had to check off

1027
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 1: a list. I was helping administer this training program for

1028
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: emerging filmmakers where um, you know, filmmakers was sort of

1029
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: like picture an idea and then we'd end up making

1030
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 1: like four short films with four different ideas, and one

1031
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 1: of the ideas that was pitched was like, um again

1032
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: this sort of like coming of age like sexual like

1033
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 1: maturing like teen girls story. And it was like very even,

1034
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 1: just like on the producer sort of side of it,

1035
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: like it was really difficult to try and justify one

1036
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 1: why we were making this film, especially because it was

1037
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 1: like essentially a training project, and it was like, so,

1038
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 1: why are we tackling the subject matter and to like, um,

1039
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: you know, the director wanted to use like especially like

1040
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 1: non actors and like very young non actors, and I

1041
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 1: was like again, like why why, why why does that

1042
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: have to be the decision like creatively you know, um,

1043
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: because I don't think it's ethical, Like we didn't just

1044
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 1: like emerge one day in you know, and have this

1045
01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 1: idea of like predatory men plaring on young girls, because

1046
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 1: I think this is a case where it's appropriate to

1047
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 1: speak about girls as opposed to women. Um. You know,

1048
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: like this narrative has been present in in Western culture

1049
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 1: for a really really long time. You know. One of

1050
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: the sort of examples that like I thought of was, um,

1051
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: the rape of Persephone um or Persephone in Greek mythology perceptony,

1052
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 1: the goddess of Spring comes of age, so she's like

1053
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 1: gets her periods. So we can assume she's like twelve

1054
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 1: thirteen maybe and is kidnapped by Hades, who is at

1055
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: that point in time, I mean her uncle but also

1056
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 1: a like perceived as being like a much older man,

1057
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 1: and Hadie sort of tricks her and gets her to

1058
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: eat some pomegranate seeds, so she has to Persephone has

1059
01:03:54,680 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: to end up returning to the underworld. Um and where

1060
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: Haydes ends up marrying her. Um yeah a real chill time,

1061
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: real real cool chill time. Yeah. The Greeks man, Yeah, yeah,

1062
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: since there's times where are like Jesus and this is

1063
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 1: what Western culture is built upon. Koko ko ko cool,

1064
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 1: you know, so like, so there's like a very like

1065
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 1: early conversation about like or like early sort of example

1066
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 1: of this idea of I mean and like don't even

1067
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 1: get me started on zeus um and and like his

1068
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 1: multiple sexual assaults and rapes. But yeah, so there's this

1069
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 1: example of like Haydies and Persephone, and yet the story

1070
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 1: of Hades and Persephoni is often, um, in a modern lens,

1071
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: at least perceived as being very romantic. I think that

1072
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: we have to actually be like very critical of like

1073
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: the underlying culture that exists, and like you know, it's like, well,

1074
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 1: why why do we feel compelled romanticize the story? Um?

1075
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: You know, like one of my big pet feeds is

1076
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: actually um a lot of like white conspiracy culture, um,

1077
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 1: because it so frustrates me that people will go a

1078
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 1: whole hog on something like Q and on or you know,

1079
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 1: even um, you know like the Satanic panic. You know, um,

1080
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 1: people will go like full bor on that or even

1081
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 1: just like some of the like anti gay conspiracy stuff

1082
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: that was going on to around, like the AIDS pandemic,

1083
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 1: Like these are the things that I was growing up around.

1084
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 1: People will go whole hog on that. But like, yeah,

1085
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 1: when you sort of say, like, um, systemic racism is

1086
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 1: a thing, and uh, you know, Indigenous women are eight

1087
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: times more likely to be sexually assaulted than white women,

1088
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 1: even though they represent like less than six percent of

1089
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 1: the population. You know, when you talk about you know,

1090
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 1: missing and murdered Indigenous women, girls and two spirit people, Um,

1091
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: you know that number in the thousands and thousands and thousands,

1092
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: and like that's something we have proof for. And you know,

1093
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 1: people want to spend more time talking about like some

1094
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 1: supposed pedophile ring that meets in like a pizza hut.

1095
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: It's like, okay. As a programmer too, like I um

1096
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 1: up until very recently, actually, I would say, although it

1097
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 1: still happens a little bit. Um like the amount of

1098
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 1: like films and like students, so you're like not even

1099
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:40,760
Speaker 1: dealing with like people who are like and you're dealing

1100
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 1: with like some like shif heead part of my language,

1101
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: but like some shifhead at some film school who's like,

1102
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make this real edgy film. It's about rape

1103
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: or it's about pedophilia. It's about this, or it's about that,

1104
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, so when I was programming

1105
01:06:54,240 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: for festivals, I would end up watching you know, like um,

1106
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: not insignificant amount of short films that were like all

1107
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: about ripe um And that's kind of cooled off a

1108
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: little bit recently, and I think it is due to

1109
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 1: things like the Me Too movement becoming a little bit

1110
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 1: more visible. But like young male filmmakers for some reason,

1111
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: it's like the only thing that they could like like, oh, well,

1112
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: how do I develop a woman? Well, I guess she

1113
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 1: could be sexually assaulted and you're like Jesus Christ, like

1114
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, and and like part of that is like

1115
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 1: what you see in media elsewhere, right, Like people just

1116
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 1: kind of reproduce like things that they're shown, And the

1117
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: other side of that is just that like um that

1118
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: like that also that like I think there was so

1119
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 1: little resistance to it for so long, you know. I

1120
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: think that like for for so long, you know, like

1121
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:52,200
Speaker 1: it was saying you know, there was and still like

1122
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: still there's like this championing of like you know, these

1123
01:07:56,000 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 1: narratives but excuse me, brutalization. I feel like almost like

1124
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 1: the way to adapt Lolita is um and taking a

1125
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: page out of documentaries like Surviving R. Kelly and actually, um,

1126
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: you know, take it into this whole other sort of um,

1127
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 1: you know, realm of cinematic language, where it would be

1128
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 1: like interviewing low Low, I guess interviewing Dolores and and

1129
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 1: sort of like presenting her side of the story, um

1130
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:37,920
Speaker 1: from sort of like the position of somebody who survived

1131
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 1: this really horrendous experience, not only with like humbered Humbert,

1132
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 1: but with Quilty too. But then it's like, does that

1133
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:52,040
Speaker 1: step too far away from the book? Offs like initial text, like,

1134
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:55,439
Speaker 1: I just I'm not sure we can keep Humbert. Yeah,

1135
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just I'm very ja at this

1136
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: point of keeping humber in frame at all. I know

1137
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 1: again like as a survivor of of you know, childhood

1138
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:09,639
Speaker 1: sexual abuse. But it's so much more nuance than that.

1139
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: And that's what I want fundamentally through Dolors, because I think, like,

1140
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 1: you know, not only just like the fan communities for

1141
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:19,000
Speaker 1: the book, but also just for like the people who

1142
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 1: find the book as and like use it as a

1143
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:25,720
Speaker 1: way of being able to understand their own context, you know,

1144
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,720
Speaker 1: um and like use it as like a way of

1145
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 1: being able to start to find the words to talk

1146
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 1: about their own situation. I think is really powerful and

1147
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 1: and and is a reason for which I argue that

1148
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 1: we do need a good adaptation of Lolita because like

1149
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 1: the survivors deserved that. Like I think that, you know,

1150
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:49,000
Speaker 1: like I think that, like you know, a lot of

1151
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 1: times when I when I look at things like representation, Um,

1152
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think that we I think when

1153
01:09:57,200 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 1: we sort of think about representation, it's it's like it's

1154
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 1: in this very limited scope of sort of being like

1155
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 1: um uh you know, oh, well, we need to like

1156
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 1: have women being things. You know, when when we do

1157
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 1: include trans people in stories, when we do include women

1158
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,320
Speaker 1: in stories, when I do include bipop folks and stories,

1159
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 1: it allows people to see themselves in futures perhaps they

1160
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 1: couldn't have imagined or in like in ways perhaps they

1161
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 1: didn't imagine themselves, and that can be a really powerful thing.

1162
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: And like, and I think that if we had like

1163
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:37,400
Speaker 1: a really good adaptation of the Leda or just even

1164
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:39,360
Speaker 1: like like you're saying, you know, like other stories about

1165
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 1: childhood sexual abuse and being a survivor, Like, I think

1166
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 1: that that could be so life affirming for so many

1167
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 1: people because like sexual childhood sexual abuses so ubiquitous. Unfortunately,

1168
01:10:54,479 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, Um, I remember in living having amate in

1169
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 1: my mid twenties say to me, um that she was

1170
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 1: lucky because she had never been raped. I've had so

1171
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 1: many I like, so many people, and so many friends,

1172
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 1: and so many family members and so many like you know,

1173
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 1: and and so much of that Like trauma, you know,

1174
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 1: you end up just like carrying it and passing it

1175
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:26,120
Speaker 1: down and carrying it and passing it down and like, um,

1176
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: and it just like affects everything. Like I think that

1177
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 1: we think of trauma sometimes as being like you know,

1178
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 1: sort of like they do in Blackbird, where it just

1179
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: like shuts your whole life down, and it's like, well, no,

1180
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 1: it's actually much more common that people sort of continue

1181
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 1: to look on doing you know, surviving because we're in

1182
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 1: genious animals in terms of survival. Um. But that doesn't

1183
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:51,760
Speaker 1: mean that it isn't like ravaging parts of our life.

1184
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 1: There's you know, you can't always control what happens to

1185
01:11:57,439 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: the thing that you create once you put it out

1186
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 1: into the world, even if like you know, um, And

1187
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 1: we talked about this a little bit, Um, I'm bechtelcast

1188
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 1: when we talked about like Rhymestreng goals, Like there's so

1189
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:10,200
Speaker 1: many amazing things about that film, and it's so important

1190
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:13,799
Speaker 1: to see and yet you know, fifteen people including myself

1191
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: sot in theaters and nobody like no nobody else did

1192
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 1: um you know, and so like there's there's a certain

1193
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:22,439
Speaker 1: amount of like, you know, even if you sort of

1194
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 1: got to the point where you could make a film

1195
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 1: adaptation of Uita, you could get it distributed, umber would

1196
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:35,679
Speaker 1: be you know, seeing for what he is. It's still

1197
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 1: like would people would people see that? Like would would

1198
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,559
Speaker 1: you know? Would people be interested enough in that, like

1199
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 1: paradigm shift to engage with it? Like well we've seen

1200
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 1: even just like and this isn't like the most like

1201
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 1: salient example, but like how people react to like a

1202
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 1: Black Stormtrooper, you know, or like an all female Ghostbusters

1203
01:12:57,360 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 1: like are people ready for? And and like an ethical

1204
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:03,799
Speaker 1: adaptation of Lolita? I don't know. I think if anything,

1205
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 1: there is so much mysterial like here, Jamie, that you

1206
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 1: could do like a whole season two just about like

1207
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 1: things that get compared to Aldo. Thank you again to

1208
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:16,639
Speaker 1: the amazing Jess Merwin, and you can check out more

1209
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,719
Speaker 1: of their work at Jess Merwin dot com. In preparing

1210
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 1: for this episode, I've watched quite a few movies from

1211
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 1: the last fifteen years that attempt to address child sex

1212
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 1: abuse and the pressures that are put on kids at

1213
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:33,559
Speaker 1: an increasingly young age to sexualize themselves. The trends that

1214
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 1: just describes manifest pretty cleanly here. Even though there's several

1215
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 1: of the movies I'm about to mention that I generally

1216
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 1: like and think accomplished net good. I don't have time

1217
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:44,720
Speaker 1: to get into any of them in depth, but I

1218
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 1: want to give you an idea of what sorts of

1219
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 1: stories have been brought to the forefront since Adrian lines Lolita,

1220
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 1: and I want to note that most of the movies

1221
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:56,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to describe here do show abuse of a

1222
01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:00,679
Speaker 1: child in one way or another on screen. There's stories

1223
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,680
Speaker 1: about child sex abuse survivors who come to terms with

1224
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,719
Speaker 1: their abuse or begin to process it while they're still

1225
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 1: in the midst of their abuser. There's Precious, based on

1226
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:13,320
Speaker 1: the novel Push by Sapphire, a story of a black

1227
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 1: teenage survivor navigating sexual abuse, poverty, and racism, a movie

1228
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 1: that was pretty controversial when it first came out. There's

1229
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 1: also Tim Roth's directorial debut, The War Room. Tim Roth,

1230
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 1: I learned was a survivor of child sexual abuse himself,

1231
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 1: and In the movie, a son slowly realizes that his

1232
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 1: father is sexually abusing his sister while other members of

1233
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 1: the family remain complicit out of fear. There's Rhymes for

1234
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:42,000
Speaker 1: Young Ghouls, the movie Jess and I were discussing in

1235
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 1: the interview, a Jeff Barnaby movie about a Canadian Indigenous

1236
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:49,200
Speaker 1: teenager and survivor of abuse in the seventies, living on

1237
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:54,040
Speaker 1: a reservation and traversing the abusive racist reservation school system.

1238
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 1: In another category, we have the slew of movies about

1239
01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 1: people who are processing their trauma as adults, Movies that

1240
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 1: examine the ways in which the lingering effects of child

1241
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 1: sex abuse can follow a person through their lives. There's

1242
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:10,599
Speaker 1: the Tale, written and directed and pulling from the real

1243
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:16,120
Speaker 1: life experiences of Jennifer Fox, about Laura Dern's character revisiting abuse,

1244
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 1: only to realize that upon seeing photos of herself from

1245
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:22,400
Speaker 1: the time, that she was much younger than she remembers.

1246
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:26,640
Speaker 1: There's Una, a movie starring Rudy Mara adapted from the

1247
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 1: play Blackbird, in which a twenty eight year old woman

1248
01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:32,840
Speaker 1: finds and confronts a man who sexually abused and attempted

1249
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 1: to abduct her when she was thirteen. Her abuser served

1250
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 1: his time in prison four years, not enough, but upon

1251
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 1: confronting him, she finds that he hasn't really internalized what

1252
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 1: he had done during his time in the car stural system.

1253
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 1: There's the adult survivors of abuse of priests in Spotlight,

1254
01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 1: the only movie on this list that doesn't show child

1255
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:55,559
Speaker 1: abuse on screen. There's movies that attempt to show the

1256
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:59,760
Speaker 1: pressures put on young people coming of age. Cutie's a

1257
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:05,080
Speaker 1: highly controversial French movie by Maimuna Ducore from explores a

1258
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:09,080
Speaker 1: French Black Muslim adolescent's attempt to reconcile her life at

1259
01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:13,280
Speaker 1: home with a religious upbringing, with the demand to sexualize oneself,

1260
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: with navigating her own sexuality and identity. The discussion around

1261
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:21,719
Speaker 1: this movie has been fraught and controversial, which I don't

1262
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:24,519
Speaker 1: have the time to get into here in full, but

1263
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of valid conversation that cuts has generated.

1264
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:32,040
Speaker 1: The cinematography in this movie is for my money, uh what,

1265
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:35,519
Speaker 1: and my general feeling is that it's an interesting story

1266
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:39,720
Speaker 1: told in a deeply exploitative and irresponsible way toward its

1267
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 1: underage stars. But the kickoff for the backlash in the

1268
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:47,720
Speaker 1: US was the movie's marketing. The movie was released on

1269
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 1: Netflix in the US, and they released a promotional poster

1270
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: of the Cuts dance team posed provocatively to sell the

1271
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 1: movie in spite of the fact that the core message

1272
01:16:57,160 --> 01:16:59,559
Speaker 1: of the movie seems to want us to challenge that

1273
01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:17,559
Speaker 1: to extent. Ye then there's the category of movies about revenge.

1274
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:20,880
Speaker 1: I saw Emerald Fennel's Promising Young Woman last week, and

1275
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:24,479
Speaker 1: it embodied me emotionally. It's about the friend of a

1276
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 1: sexually abused college student who is avenging her death from

1277
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 1: the men who sexually abused her, but not just her abusers,

1278
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:35,960
Speaker 1: also bystanders, enablers, and authority figures who knew and did nothing,

1279
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:38,559
Speaker 1: either because it was easier or because they stood to

1280
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 1: make some money out of it. There's also revenge tales

1281
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:44,080
Speaker 1: that end a little more cathartically. One that I remember

1282
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 1: seeing early on was Hard Candy, in which a young

1283
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 1: Elliott Page plays a preteen who deliberately entraps an adult

1284
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:54,640
Speaker 1: child sex abuser and murderer played by Patrick Wilson. The

1285
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 1: thirteen year old threatened to castrate him and forces him

1286
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:00,280
Speaker 1: to confront and admit to the crimes he's committed while

1287
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:04,600
Speaker 1: being humiliated and there's more. There's bad education, and the

1288
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 1: handmaiden and a teacher, and I didn't even touch TV.

1289
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:11,800
Speaker 1: The list goes on, and there's definitely a pattern I've

1290
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:14,800
Speaker 1: noticed in movies that address child sex abuse that are

1291
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:17,880
Speaker 1: very successful and those that aren't. It's not quite as

1292
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 1: simple as they were directed by a well regarded white

1293
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 1: male directors and therefore are inherently taken more seriously because

1294
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:28,759
Speaker 1: we live in a society. Although uh, that is often true.

1295
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:32,280
Speaker 1: But what really struck me in watching these movies is

1296
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:35,479
Speaker 1: that the movies that tend to get more praise are

1297
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:39,719
Speaker 1: not just more often men directing movies about the abuse

1298
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:43,599
Speaker 1: of young girls. It also appears that movies about child

1299
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:47,680
Speaker 1: sex abuse that show you that child sex abuse are

1300
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:51,519
Speaker 1: more likely to be praised and awarded things. And the

1301
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 1: artist who really clarified that for me is my friend

1302
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:57,680
Speaker 1: Eva Vives, who I was thrilled the interview for this

1303
01:18:57,760 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 1: final episode. I was lucky enough to work with Eva

1304
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:05,120
Speaker 1: on her feature debut All about Nina. Back in we

1305
01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 1: met because she had asked a mutual friend if he

1306
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:11,839
Speaker 1: knew of any female stand ups who had experienced sexual abuse,

1307
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:15,519
Speaker 1: and guess who came up my phone? Started a ring

1308
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:20,200
Speaker 1: in and Eva has very graciously since become an amazing

1309
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 1: friend and mentor to me. Eva was raised in Catalonia

1310
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:26,960
Speaker 1: and then moved to the US to become a filmmaker.

1311
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:31,160
Speaker 1: She is an incredible writer director who had previously co

1312
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:34,920
Speaker 1: written Raising Victor Vargas, and she since directed episodes of

1313
01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:37,960
Speaker 1: The Affair, Party of five and is currently working on

1314
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:40,599
Speaker 1: a new feature. All About Nina is about a stand

1315
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:43,760
Speaker 1: up comic played by Mary Elizabeth Winstead, who is in

1316
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 1: and out of an abusive relationship while navigating her burgeon

1317
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:49,920
Speaker 1: in comedy career, then meeting a person who she may

1318
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:52,880
Speaker 1: actually be able to love and have a healthy relationship with.

1319
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:56,280
Speaker 1: Spoiler alert if you haven't seen it, fast forward fifteen seconds.

1320
01:19:56,439 --> 01:19:58,720
Speaker 1: But the climax of the movie is Nina having a

1321
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 1: breakdown on stage revealing that she was sexually abused as

1322
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 1: a child by her father. It's an approach to discussing

1323
01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 1: child sex abuse that's pretty unusual in a way that

1324
01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 1: I found and still find unique. We meet and get

1325
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:14,639
Speaker 1: to know Nina without knowing the worst thing that's ever

1326
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:17,559
Speaker 1: happened to her, like you would ordinarily meet any person.

1327
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 1: You see her relationships and her choices and you form

1328
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 1: your opinions throughout the movie. Then boom, Nina tells the

1329
01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:27,360
Speaker 1: world what she hasn't yet been able to confront, and

1330
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:29,840
Speaker 1: it changes your perspective on what she's been doing the

1331
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:32,519
Speaker 1: whole time. I think it's really effective, and it hits

1332
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 1: both on how common this kind of abuse can be

1333
01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 1: and how it manifests over time in ways that many

1334
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 1: might not guess. So I got to catch up with

1335
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:44,640
Speaker 1: Eva to get her insights on Lolita, her experiences tackling

1336
01:20:44,680 --> 01:20:47,880
Speaker 1: issues of sexual abuse and cs A, specifically in her

1337
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:51,759
Speaker 1: art as a survivor herself. So let's check out that interview.

1338
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:55,200
Speaker 1: I don't know should be I mean, I think so

1339
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 1: much of what is important to me about this stuff,

1340
01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:00,680
Speaker 1: and I think maybe what you're talking about, Like I

1341
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:02,720
Speaker 1: was gonna say, what are those movies and are they

1342
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:07,040
Speaker 1: told by survivors? Because I think it's the perspective of

1343
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:10,639
Speaker 1: it that's so important, you know, and that and that

1344
01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 1: matters so much, Like why why did Nabokov tell this

1345
01:21:14,640 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 1: story and for whom did he tell it? I don't

1346
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:21,000
Speaker 1: remember how I first heard about it, but but I

1347
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:25,559
Speaker 1: do remember um consciously going to my school library in

1348
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 1: high school and ask him for it because I couldn't

1349
01:21:29,040 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 1: see it on the shelf. And I remember that the

1350
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:34,240
Speaker 1: that the librarian who was an older or she seemed

1351
01:21:34,320 --> 01:21:36,760
Speaker 1: older to me. She probably wasn't, but you know, when

1352
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 1: you're young, everybody seems old. Who was an American woman

1353
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:42,479
Speaker 1: who kind of looked like big bird a little bit

1354
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:45,120
Speaker 1: like you know, sort of that kind of curly hair

1355
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:47,920
Speaker 1: and stuff, sort of frowned and was like, Lolita, you

1356
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:50,600
Speaker 1: want to read Lolita? And I was in, you know,

1357
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:53,519
Speaker 1: I was in sort of defense mode, like yeah, because

1358
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:55,439
Speaker 1: I knew what it was about. You know, I think

1359
01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:58,080
Speaker 1: they might have ordered it and so that I could

1360
01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:01,400
Speaker 1: read it. One of the reasons why I think it's significant,

1361
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 1: and I say this is also and talk about my

1362
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 1: own um sort of defensiveness about it, is because you know,

1363
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:11,000
Speaker 1: I was being raped at home by my father, which

1364
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:13,680
Speaker 1: is something that lasted eight years, and I think it

1365
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:15,680
Speaker 1: was the first instance that I had ever heard of

1366
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:18,640
Speaker 1: anything a book or a movie that in any way

1367
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:21,639
Speaker 1: um showed that kind of relationship. And I think that's

1368
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:24,120
Speaker 1: why I wanted to read it, But I was um

1369
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:26,840
Speaker 1: sort of defiant about it because and I do think

1370
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:30,679
Speaker 1: it's important to say that often survivors, especially when it's happening,

1371
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:33,880
Speaker 1: are It's something I try to show Nina, right, Like,

1372
01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:36,679
Speaker 1: one of the ways that you get through that kind

1373
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 1: of abuse is to um pretend even to yourself that

1374
01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:45,160
Speaker 1: it's okay and in fact that it's great. I mean,

1375
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:47,679
Speaker 1: if not great, but that like, you know, I bought

1376
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:49,559
Speaker 1: into the ship my father told me, which was you

1377
01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:52,360
Speaker 1: know that we were ahead of others, and um, you

1378
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:56,880
Speaker 1: know that the sort of compromised you know, like old

1379
01:22:56,920 --> 01:23:00,040
Speaker 1: school morality, didn't understand what we were doing, like that

1380
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 1: kind of thing. I mean, I think I knew dig down.

1381
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 1: I was like, really, but you know, when you're when

1382
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:09,160
Speaker 1: you're thirteen or fourteen and you're under that kind of abuse,

1383
01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:11,840
Speaker 1: I don't think I was in any shape to really

1384
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:13,760
Speaker 1: like go question it at the time. And again, it

1385
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:17,840
Speaker 1: at least feels good to tell yourself that that might

1386
01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:20,879
Speaker 1: be the case. And hey, here's a book that everybody

1387
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:23,959
Speaker 1: has been talking about for years, that's considered a classic

1388
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:26,680
Speaker 1: that's about this very topic. So I went, you know,

1389
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:28,519
Speaker 1: I read it and I kind of couldn't believe it.

1390
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:30,640
Speaker 1: I was like, holy sh it, this is it was

1391
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 1: as close as it got to my father and I

1392
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:36,800
Speaker 1: as anything else I've ever read, even though you know

1393
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:40,680
Speaker 1: I knew that that. Um obviously Humberd is not her

1394
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:44,719
Speaker 1: her biological dad in the book, but the thing that

1395
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 1: that really likes sort of um, you know, it's and

1396
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 1: again I've not read it probably since then, so you know,

1397
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:54,519
Speaker 1: I and I in fact, I think whatever book or

1398
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:56,680
Speaker 1: copy I had of it, I threw it away. I

1399
01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:00,000
Speaker 1: really have no love for the book or him. Um

1400
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:03,040
Speaker 1: you might as you might imagine, and so but but

1401
01:24:03,120 --> 01:24:08,040
Speaker 1: again I'm glad that we're talking about it from this perspective. Um.

1402
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:10,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it was that whole middle part

1403
01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:13,480
Speaker 1: of them going away, Um, you know, where he kidnaps

1404
01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:15,559
Speaker 1: her and they travel all over the place and they

1405
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 1: go into you know, motel after mattel and he rapes her.

1406
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:22,200
Speaker 1: Basically I can't remember how long it is. It goes

1407
01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:25,720
Speaker 1: on for it goes on for a year. Yeah, I

1408
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:28,720
Speaker 1: mean just you know, it's I think an astounded and

1409
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:34,760
Speaker 1: remarkable uh you know, portrait of an abuser. Um. I

1410
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 1: think the fact that he called it Lolita is you know,

1411
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:42,240
Speaker 1: so um disingenuous. It's just a disingenuous book from from

1412
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:45,479
Speaker 1: front to bottom. And so is the you know the

1413
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 1: everything he said about it. You know, the book is

1414
01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:52,000
Speaker 1: about him and his perspective and how he feels about Lilita.

1415
01:24:52,360 --> 01:24:54,599
Speaker 1: It's not about her in anyway, nor does it intend

1416
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:56,519
Speaker 1: to be. The Other thing that really got to me

1417
01:24:56,560 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 1: and that I felt very sort of put put upon,

1418
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:02,800
Speaker 1: because of course identified with her was the ending that

1419
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:05,000
Speaker 1: and I seem to remember that he goes back to

1420
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:07,920
Speaker 1: see her years later when she's pregnant and I think

1421
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:12,600
Speaker 1: maybe living in a she's like seventeen, maybe yeah, And

1422
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:15,040
Speaker 1: she opened the door and she's got the big belly

1423
01:25:15,080 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 1: and he kind of like my impression at the time,

1424
01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:19,679
Speaker 1: and again I've not read it, was that he sort

1425
01:25:19,720 --> 01:25:23,000
Speaker 1: of almost looks down on her, like like she used

1426
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:26,360
Speaker 1: to be so beautiful and so meaningful, and now look

1427
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 1: at her kind of thing. Um, So the impression I

1428
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:31,800
Speaker 1: took from it was that you know, once you grew up,

1429
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:36,640
Speaker 1: you were no longer good or useful. That ending, or

1430
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:39,960
Speaker 1: the idea that again, um, one of them would ask

1431
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:43,080
Speaker 1: for forgiveness. If that's what the nineties movie does, I

1432
01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:46,120
Speaker 1: think it's also sort of for fosters and dangerous because

1433
01:25:46,160 --> 01:25:48,760
Speaker 1: again there's this idea that like, just because you asked

1434
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 1: for forgiveness means that you should be forgiven. I think

1435
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,559
Speaker 1: it puts an incredible amount of stress on Yeah, I

1436
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:56,519
Speaker 1: think you and I have talked about this. I don't

1437
01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:59,439
Speaker 1: believe that forgiveness is necessary, but I think there is

1438
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:04,600
Speaker 1: a real push towards um forgiveness as a solution. And

1439
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 1: I think it really hurts a lot of survivors because

1440
01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:11,040
Speaker 1: it focuses on that instead of getting the rage out

1441
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:14,000
Speaker 1: and getting all the stuff that you were not allowed

1442
01:26:14,040 --> 01:26:17,120
Speaker 1: to say or do or defend yourself at the time

1443
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:21,320
Speaker 1: out of your system, hopefully in therapy and with friends

1444
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:24,920
Speaker 1: who believe you and who um you know, validate you.

1445
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:27,400
Speaker 1: I think one thing, you know, I remember years ago

1446
01:26:27,479 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 1: seeing a movie which I shall not name, but it

1447
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:34,599
Speaker 1: was about I think I think it involved rape more

1448
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 1: than anything. And and one of the characters in the

1449
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 1: movie was a chef. And in the credits, which I

1450
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:43,880
Speaker 1: was looking after, it said chef chef consultant, And I thought,

1451
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:48,680
Speaker 1: and where's the rape consultant. I will educate pretty much

1452
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 1: at any you know, at any given moment, but because

1453
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:55,120
Speaker 1: I think it's where we are now, and I do

1454
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 1: see it as part of my duty. But um, but

1455
01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:00,559
Speaker 1: I just want to say, you know, have to talk

1456
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:02,439
Speaker 1: about it just because it happened to you if you

1457
01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 1: don't want to. And plenty of survivors don't. You know,

1458
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:11,080
Speaker 1: survivors can survive and have healthy relationships and lives um

1459
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 1: with the right health and support. I think that's really

1460
01:27:14,160 --> 01:27:17,479
Speaker 1: really important to know because a few instances I ever

1461
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:20,680
Speaker 1: saw of this stuff, and certainly in movies, um, we're

1462
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:25,040
Speaker 1: always tragic. This is the examples I always had when

1463
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:27,720
Speaker 1: any of this came up, including rape for a long

1464
01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:30,439
Speaker 1: time in movies, was that you would end up as

1465
01:27:30,479 --> 01:27:33,200
Speaker 1: an you know, an addict in the gutter or sex

1466
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:35,760
Speaker 1: worker or whatever. And again I don't mean that in

1467
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:38,600
Speaker 1: any way as a as a shame full or insulting

1468
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:41,720
Speaker 1: thing to anybody who does go who does do that

1469
01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:44,519
Speaker 1: or goes through it. And there are very real reasons

1470
01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 1: why somebody you know might end up doing something like that.

1471
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:50,240
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that the perspective has always been like,

1472
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:53,439
Speaker 1: if this happens to you, your life is destroyed, which

1473
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:56,840
Speaker 1: a book like Lolita also puts forward right like it's

1474
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:01,680
Speaker 1: only important to the author insomuch as how he experienced her.

1475
01:28:02,240 --> 01:28:06,360
Speaker 1: I am really a strong believer in not showing sexual violence,

1476
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 1: UM on screen. I don't think that you have to

1477
01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:14,360
Speaker 1: show a child being sexualized in order for us to

1478
01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:18,160
Speaker 1: understand that it's a terrible thing that a child is

1479
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:21,360
Speaker 1: being sexualized, Do you know what I mean? I think

1480
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:25,439
Speaker 1: I think that we all by now understand that rape,

1481
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:29,639
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, etcetera. Are horrendous crimes, and I don't want

1482
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:31,840
Speaker 1: to see it on screen. And I don't think you

1483
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:35,320
Speaker 1: should ask, you know, children to even act it out,

1484
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:39,000
Speaker 1: or adults for that matter. You know, UM, I think

1485
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:41,320
Speaker 1: that there are other ways in which we can show

1486
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 1: the psychological impact or any kind of impact even physical,

1487
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:50,559
Speaker 1: that that it might have on people without um recreating it.

1488
01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:54,839
Speaker 1: I certainly feel this way about rape scenes. I cannot

1489
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:58,160
Speaker 1: I can't tell you one that I think is necessary

1490
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:00,920
Speaker 1: in any movie. Most of the movies that get a

1491
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:04,400
Speaker 1: ton of awards attention and then get kind of I

1492
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:08,080
Speaker 1: mean that most of these movies, almost without exception that

1493
01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:13,040
Speaker 1: I can think of, show it, which I agree isn't necessary,

1494
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:16,000
Speaker 1: but but I feel like it is still. I don't

1495
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:19,479
Speaker 1: know that I may be rewarded isn't the right word,

1496
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:22,760
Speaker 1: But I think it's sort of a lack of imagination,

1497
01:29:22,800 --> 01:29:24,760
Speaker 1: to say the least, on the part of the filmmaker,

1498
01:29:25,520 --> 01:29:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, beyond also, like the issue here isn't like,

1499
01:29:29,479 --> 01:29:32,400
Speaker 1: of course the abuses is happening, but the real issue

1500
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:35,920
Speaker 1: is what happens to a child when that is being done,

1501
01:29:36,080 --> 01:29:38,360
Speaker 1: not in the moment, I mean, yes, you know, but

1502
01:29:38,479 --> 01:29:41,400
Speaker 1: like the repercussions of it. You know, I really wanted

1503
01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:43,240
Speaker 1: to say that because I think that's important as we

1504
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 1: move forward, even from a female point of view, you

1505
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:49,080
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And again, I totally I respect

1506
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:53,280
Speaker 1: survivors who feel otherwise. I just that's my opinion, you know.

1507
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:56,960
Speaker 1: I say. Also, somebody who like has been criticized by

1508
01:29:57,200 --> 01:30:00,479
Speaker 1: mostly women for showing a topless woman in my movie,

1509
01:30:00,479 --> 01:30:04,840
Speaker 1: which I also found really interesting, you know, so again, yeah,

1510
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:08,080
Speaker 1: like issues of perspective are so important. Like a couple

1511
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 1: of women were like, I felt like that that was

1512
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: such a doo thing to do. My um intention with

1513
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:18,439
Speaker 1: that scene was to actually show her nudity in a

1514
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:20,920
Speaker 1: way that was not sexual. Now you know, if it

1515
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:23,599
Speaker 1: if it turns a dude on to see her kids,

1516
01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:27,800
Speaker 1: well that's his issue. But it was about her vulnerability

1517
01:30:27,960 --> 01:30:32,800
Speaker 1: and her also being naked alone in her house doing

1518
01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:36,479
Speaker 1: her work, which to me felt very realistic and very

1519
01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:39,559
Speaker 1: much me too, you know, like and other women that

1520
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:42,439
Speaker 1: I know that, like, you're alone in your house, you

1521
01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:44,800
Speaker 1: don't need to put on a braw And actually, this

1522
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:47,040
Speaker 1: is the conversation I also had with Mary about it.

1523
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:49,120
Speaker 1: I said to her, it's more important to me that

1524
01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:52,240
Speaker 1: you're comfortable than naked, So if you don't want to

1525
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:54,479
Speaker 1: be naked in the scene, don't be it. But again,

1526
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:57,240
Speaker 1: to me, it's not about sexuality, which I think is

1527
01:30:57,280 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 1: the other thing that um people still don't get about

1528
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:03,920
Speaker 1: sexual abuse. It's not really it's not about sex. It's

1529
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 1: about control and power. It goes against my instincts not

1530
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:10,519
Speaker 1: to prepare more for something like this, Like normally I

1531
01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:12,519
Speaker 1: would have liked come back and read the book and

1532
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:16,719
Speaker 1: listen to your whole podcast, but I think because um,

1533
01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:19,200
Speaker 1: because of you know the effects of it, and then

1534
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:21,519
Speaker 1: also obviously we know each other, and I know you'll

1535
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:24,120
Speaker 1: understand when I say, like, I can't really listen to

1536
01:31:24,200 --> 01:31:28,320
Speaker 1: six hours of Lolita right now, which I know you're

1537
01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:31,439
Speaker 1: you're going through as well. But but yeah, it felt

1538
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:34,160
Speaker 1: but also my God's kind of liberating. And I just

1539
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,640
Speaker 1: sort of gave you my visceral response to it, and

1540
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:39,920
Speaker 1: I am glad to talk about it because I and

1541
01:31:40,040 --> 01:31:41,880
Speaker 1: I did hear the first part where you were talking

1542
01:31:41,880 --> 01:31:43,639
Speaker 1: about how you came to it and all that, which

1543
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:47,479
Speaker 1: is not so you know, dissimilar to my experience of it,

1544
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 1: that this is somehow fucking offered two young girls as

1545
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:55,240
Speaker 1: something to read. Thank you so much to Eva Vivas.

1546
01:31:55,479 --> 01:31:59,080
Speaker 1: I cannot recommend her work enough. Speaking with Eva didn't

1547
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:02,320
Speaker 1: just kind of or if I realizing that movies seem

1548
01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:06,400
Speaker 1: more likely to succeed when they explicitly depict abuse, and

1549
01:32:06,479 --> 01:32:10,840
Speaker 1: also clarified that imperfect victims don't normally get much of

1550
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 1: a spotlight in mainstream media. Working on this show has

1551
01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:18,520
Speaker 1: really challenged and reinforced my views on what a survivor

1552
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:22,240
Speaker 1: of abuse can look and behave like. In Dolores's case,

1553
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,599
Speaker 1: one of the primary excuses made to make the severe

1554
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 1: abuse she experienced this her fault is the fact that

1555
01:32:29,240 --> 01:32:31,519
Speaker 1: she had a crush on Humberd when he first moved

1556
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:34,160
Speaker 1: in when she was twelve, when he started working on

1557
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:36,880
Speaker 1: this show. My response to her having a crush on

1558
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:39,479
Speaker 1: him was that couldn't have been true, no way, But

1559
01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 1: the truth is so fucking what if it was true?

1560
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:46,360
Speaker 1: When I was twelve, I absolutely had crushes on adults,

1561
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:49,799
Speaker 1: and if they had appeared to reciprocate that, it's entirely

1562
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:53,439
Speaker 1: possible that I could have tried to experiment with that power.

1563
01:32:53,720 --> 01:32:56,280
Speaker 1: To ignore the fact that Dolores was a normal twelve

1564
01:32:56,360 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 1: year old coming into her own sexually and navigating her

1565
01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:03,799
Speaker 1: identity and experimenting with power would be to just label

1566
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:07,759
Speaker 1: her inconvenient as a victim, or to imply that only

1567
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:11,719
Speaker 1: certain types of behavior mean you deserve justice and care.

1568
01:33:12,200 --> 01:33:16,160
Speaker 1: This sentiment is more succinctly expressed in Cis a Survivor.

1569
01:33:16,400 --> 01:33:21,160
Speaker 1: Tashmika Tarak, in her essay casting aspersions why do we

1570
01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 1: always lay the burden of ending sexual violence at the

1571
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:26,519
Speaker 1: feet of those who have survived it. I've talked a

1572
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:30,080
Speaker 1: lot about how we see ourselves in Dolores, and I

1573
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:32,960
Speaker 1: would be lying if her story doesn't pull out parts

1574
01:33:33,120 --> 01:33:35,439
Speaker 1: of my own history. I think that her story does

1575
01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:37,200
Speaker 1: that for a lot of people, and that that's a

1576
01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:41,160
Speaker 1: powerful thing. Dolores does not fit the perfect victim narrative

1577
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:44,439
Speaker 1: because of how she's blamed for having a crush, for

1578
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:48,599
Speaker 1: navigating abuse from her own guardian to escape, for escaping

1579
01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:51,880
Speaker 1: to another abuser, because that was her only option. A

1580
01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:55,320
Speaker 1: lot of what I think has really mangled Doloras Hayes's

1581
01:33:55,439 --> 01:33:59,519
Speaker 1: legacy in popular consciousness is people levying questions at her

1582
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:04,000
Speaker 1: are often the same questions that oppress survivors. Why didn't

1583
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:07,000
Speaker 1: you leave? Why didn't you tell someone sooner? Why did

1584
01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:10,200
Speaker 1: you go back? Why didn't you say something? Making it

1585
01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:13,760
Speaker 1: all her fault instead of considering the context of what

1586
01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:17,800
Speaker 1: she is experiencing. These questions don't take into consideration. What

1587
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:20,240
Speaker 1: if you have nowhere to go. What if you don't

1588
01:34:20,240 --> 01:34:24,360
Speaker 1: have the financial independence or legal ability to leave. What

1589
01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 1: if you do tell someone but they don't believe you.

1590
01:34:26,479 --> 01:34:29,040
Speaker 1: What if you love the person who is abusing you

1591
01:34:29,160 --> 01:34:32,439
Speaker 1: and it takes time to acknowledge and understand what's going on.

1592
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:35,799
Speaker 1: What if you didn't realize that someone you thought loved

1593
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:39,599
Speaker 1: you could do that. In my experience as an adult,

1594
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:42,400
Speaker 1: whenever I got asked questions like why didn't you leave?

1595
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:46,520
Speaker 1: I got angry and defensive and embarrassed. I felt extreme

1596
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:49,599
Speaker 1: shame when a school counselor told me that assaults taking

1597
01:34:49,640 --> 01:34:52,960
Speaker 1: place off campus weren't her problem, and knowing from friends

1598
01:34:52,960 --> 01:34:55,840
Speaker 1: who had tried that going to the police was the

1599
01:34:55,880 --> 01:34:58,439
Speaker 1: most traumatic biggest waste of fucking time I could think

1600
01:34:58,439 --> 01:35:01,360
Speaker 1: of who do you turn to? And after enough time passed,

1601
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:03,839
Speaker 1: I decided I would try talking to the fucking police.

1602
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:06,120
Speaker 1: But you will not be shocked to learn that that

1603
01:35:06,160 --> 01:35:09,200
Speaker 1: went nowhere. And this experience was happening to me in

1604
01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:12,719
Speaker 1: the year fourteen, which is a couple of years. Shy

1605
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:15,800
Speaker 1: of the world asking you to believe women, My own

1606
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:19,960
Speaker 1: experience has happened nearly seventy years after Dolores's, and there

1607
01:35:20,040 --> 01:35:22,519
Speaker 1: was still not a fucking chance of getting any justice.

1608
01:35:22,720 --> 01:35:26,520
Speaker 1: Shit sucked that bad in fourteen, and in most regards,

1609
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:30,720
Speaker 1: sh it sucks that bad right now. The context here

1610
01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:34,400
Speaker 1: is critical. This was sexual abuse that happened to a

1611
01:35:34,439 --> 01:35:38,800
Speaker 1: twelve year old child in nineteen forty seven, and ultimately,

1612
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:42,120
Speaker 1: the societal image of Dolores is built around behavior that

1613
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:45,920
Speaker 1: she displays in around a twenty four hour period in

1614
01:35:45,960 --> 01:35:48,960
Speaker 1: the day that Humbrick picks her up from camp, the

1615
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:51,400
Speaker 1: day before he drugs her for the first time, the

1616
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:54,000
Speaker 1: day before he rapes her for the first time, the

1617
01:35:54,080 --> 01:35:56,960
Speaker 1: day before she learns her mother is dead, and she

1618
01:35:57,120 --> 01:35:59,400
Speaker 1: is permanently in the clutches of a man who just

1619
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:02,840
Speaker 1: raped her three times when she's picked up from camp.

1620
01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:06,560
Speaker 1: Dolores's behavior, as Humbert describes it, is bold and vibrant.

1621
01:36:06,960 --> 01:36:10,320
Speaker 1: She jokes that she's been horribly unfaithful to him. She

1622
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:13,519
Speaker 1: initiates the kiss with him, calling it the kissing game,

1623
01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 1: and she's essentially experimenting a little with power. And when

1624
01:36:17,439 --> 01:36:19,040
Speaker 1: I was starting the show, I think there's a part

1625
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:22,519
Speaker 1: of me that rejected this. Surely Humbert is lying, but

1626
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:25,120
Speaker 1: even if he isn't, none of this behavior from a

1627
01:36:25,120 --> 01:36:28,680
Speaker 1: twelve year old means that she was inviting the destruction

1628
01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 1: of her entire life from a child sex abuser, or

1629
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:34,320
Speaker 1: that she was a partner in crime or a seductress.

1630
01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:36,920
Speaker 1: To her At this point in the narrative, Dolores is

1631
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:40,320
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's going on. Humbert was a

1632
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:43,000
Speaker 1: stranger that she had a crush on who had already

1633
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 1: assaulted her before she had even left for camp, but

1634
01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:48,800
Speaker 1: now he's married to her mom. The unfair image we

1635
01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 1: have of her as a seductress is a kid trying

1636
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:55,400
Speaker 1: to rationalize what this adult man has already done to her,

1637
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:59,479
Speaker 1: navigating her own sexuality and adolescence, and what she probably

1638
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:03,320
Speaker 1: considered is at this point in time, to be relative safety,

1639
01:37:03,360 --> 01:37:06,800
Speaker 1: because as all this is happening, Dolores assumes that she's

1640
01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:08,720
Speaker 1: on her way home and that she'll see her mom

1641
01:37:08,760 --> 01:37:13,200
Speaker 1: any minute. I can't overstate what a disservice it is

1642
01:37:13,280 --> 01:37:17,080
Speaker 1: to define her legacy by this afternoon. Experimenting with power

1643
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:20,120
Speaker 1: as an adolescent does not entitle a thirty seven year

1644
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:23,760
Speaker 1: old adult man to a child's body, ever, and it

1645
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:28,320
Speaker 1: completely ignores how much her life changes just hours after

1646
01:37:28,360 --> 01:37:33,680
Speaker 1: this scene. She was twelve in As we discussed in

1647
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:36,920
Speaker 1: episode four, there was next to no mental health support

1648
01:37:36,960 --> 01:37:39,639
Speaker 1: made to victims of abuse at this time, certainly none

1649
01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:42,920
Speaker 1: for children, and no protocol on how to interview children

1650
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:45,920
Speaker 1: who had been sexually abused in a non coercive way.

1651
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:48,640
Speaker 1: Why didn't Dolores tell the police? If you're reading the

1652
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:52,679
Speaker 1: book carefully, Dolores and Humbert encounter police all the time

1653
01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:55,960
Speaker 1: in their travels, often in situations that make Humbert look

1654
01:37:56,200 --> 01:37:59,080
Speaker 1: more than a little suspicious. No one ever did anything.

1655
01:37:59,439 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 1: Why didn't she tell an adult that she trusted? I mean,

1656
01:38:02,360 --> 01:38:04,639
Speaker 1: my god, Dolores went to school for a year around

1657
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:07,439
Speaker 1: teachers that thought something was wrong with her for not

1658
01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:10,439
Speaker 1: being more interested in sex. Instead of speaking with her

1659
01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:13,000
Speaker 1: or having her speak with a mental health professional. They

1660
01:38:13,000 --> 01:38:16,160
Speaker 1: turned to her abuser, who of course deflects everything in

1661
01:38:16,280 --> 01:38:19,960
Speaker 1: order to continue abusing. Why didn't she tell anyone? Because

1662
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 1: Humbert constantly threatened her with the idea that she would

1663
01:38:23,200 --> 01:38:26,680
Speaker 1: be thrown into the foster system if he ever experienced

1664
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:30,720
Speaker 1: a consequence being surrounded by people you would commonly associate

1665
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 1: with adults I trust who failed to notice or care

1666
01:38:34,200 --> 01:38:36,559
Speaker 1: that Dolores is abused as part of why I think

1667
01:38:36,600 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 1: she's such a powerful figure to those who have been

1668
01:38:40,439 --> 01:38:42,880
Speaker 1: Everyone thinks they're going to be a hero in that moment,

1669
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:46,320
Speaker 1: but no one in Dolores's life is. Dolores is failed

1670
01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 1: by her mother, by the authorities, by her teachers, and

1671
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:51,920
Speaker 1: her neighbors. The only people who listened to her are

1672
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:54,840
Speaker 1: girls her own age who are most likely to be disbelieved,

1673
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:58,679
Speaker 1: and another abuser like Claire Quilty, who knows full well

1674
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:01,679
Speaker 1: that the cloak of respective ability makes it much easier

1675
01:39:01,760 --> 01:39:05,040
Speaker 1: for abusers to thrive. Takes one and no one. She

1676
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:08,360
Speaker 1: is failed by every system she encounters, and these same

1677
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:13,240
Speaker 1: systems have responded by telling her that she failed. The

1678
01:39:13,320 --> 01:39:16,160
Speaker 1: last thing about rereading lowly at this time that stuck

1679
01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:20,200
Speaker 1: out to me was that last scene where Humbert. Humbert

1680
01:39:20,280 --> 01:39:24,080
Speaker 1: sees Dolores when she's seventeen and pregnant and asking him

1681
01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:26,439
Speaker 1: for money so that she can survive. I mentioned this

1682
01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:29,000
Speaker 1: in the first episode that this scene always really affected

1683
01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:31,559
Speaker 1: me in a way that I couldn't even explain, but

1684
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:33,840
Speaker 1: I think I can now. I do think that how

1685
01:39:33,920 --> 01:39:37,320
Speaker 1: Humbert presents himself in that scene is fantasy. He gives

1686
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:40,360
Speaker 1: her money, he feels bad for ruining her life, he

1687
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:43,240
Speaker 1: figures out he really did love her. And these are

1688
01:39:43,240 --> 01:39:47,400
Speaker 1: the elements that every adaptation focuses on, because that's what Humbert.

1689
01:39:47,479 --> 01:39:50,880
Speaker 1: Humbert wants you to focus on. What really strikes me

1690
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:54,320
Speaker 1: here is how Dolorus is in this scene. This is

1691
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:58,320
Speaker 1: where the value lies. I think this scene is presented

1692
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:02,240
Speaker 1: to us as Humbert last stand to gain our favor

1693
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:05,719
Speaker 1: as a jury. This is a scene that, to those

1694
01:40:05,800 --> 01:40:10,280
Speaker 1: inclined to sympathize with him, indicates that Humbert realizes that

1695
01:40:10,400 --> 01:40:13,559
Speaker 1: he harmed Dolores and wants to make amends with her.

1696
01:40:14,479 --> 01:40:18,640
Speaker 1: It's essentially fiction inside of fiction because what's ignored in

1697
01:40:18,680 --> 01:40:22,840
Speaker 1: this interpretation is well a lot. Let's take a look

1698
01:40:22,880 --> 01:40:25,360
Speaker 1: at the scene. I don't care how Humbert feels here.

1699
01:40:25,479 --> 01:40:27,960
Speaker 1: What I care about is that Dolores reached out to

1700
01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:32,160
Speaker 1: her abuser and former guardian as an absolute last resort.

1701
01:40:32,479 --> 01:40:35,519
Speaker 1: In her letter to him, she says this quote, pardon

1702
01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:38,400
Speaker 1: me for withholding our home address, but you may still

1703
01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:41,680
Speaker 1: be mad at me, and Dick must not know unquote,

1704
01:40:42,240 --> 01:40:44,920
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to see him. Humbert's tracking her down

1705
01:40:45,280 --> 01:40:49,080
Speaker 1: is one final violation, a final disregard for her wishes.

1706
01:40:49,320 --> 01:40:51,360
Speaker 1: And that's if you don't count how he erases her.

1707
01:40:51,520 --> 01:40:54,640
Speaker 1: In the text of his book, Dolores's abuser shows up

1708
01:40:54,640 --> 01:40:57,519
Speaker 1: on her doorstep unannounced, and he comes with an agenda.

1709
01:40:57,880 --> 01:41:01,599
Speaker 1: Here's what we learned. Dolores escape from Humbert Clutches, only

1710
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:05,639
Speaker 1: to land in Qualities Clutches, another unrepentant child sex abuser

1711
01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:09,759
Speaker 1: who insists that the fourteen year old participate in filming porn.

1712
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:13,519
Speaker 1: She says no, instead working jobs as a waitress before

1713
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:16,519
Speaker 1: meeting Dick Schiller, a career veteran who she cares about

1714
01:41:16,520 --> 01:41:18,920
Speaker 1: deeply but does not seem to be in love with.

1715
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:22,040
Speaker 1: She admits this, What I never really processed about the

1716
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 1: scene is that in spite of her being married and

1717
01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:27,680
Speaker 1: pregnant and more in control of her life than she

1718
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:31,439
Speaker 1: once was, she still hasn't felt comfortable telling Dick about

1719
01:41:31,439 --> 01:41:35,000
Speaker 1: the abuse she experienced with Humbert. When Humbert shows up,

1720
01:41:35,080 --> 01:41:38,320
Speaker 1: all Dick knows is that Humbert is Dolly's father, and

1721
01:41:38,439 --> 01:41:41,920
Speaker 1: Dolores begs Humbert not to say anything else. Even when

1722
01:41:41,920 --> 01:41:44,800
Speaker 1: she's more in control of her life than she's ever been,

1723
01:41:44,960 --> 01:41:48,799
Speaker 1: she still lacks someone she can completely trust. And finally,

1724
01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:52,320
Speaker 1: after humbertsbus his bullshit of I loved her all along,

1725
01:41:52,400 --> 01:41:55,720
Speaker 1: look at me, Dolores does get one moment of rebellion

1726
01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:58,880
Speaker 1: from her former abuser. Humbert says he will give her

1727
01:41:58,920 --> 01:42:01,559
Speaker 1: the money money that owed to her anyways from her

1728
01:42:01,560 --> 01:42:04,800
Speaker 1: mother's estate, and Dolores assumes that he's asking her to

1729
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:07,240
Speaker 1: have sex with him in a hotel in order to

1730
01:42:07,280 --> 01:42:09,800
Speaker 1: get it. It's not a ridiculous assumption on her part.

1731
01:42:10,080 --> 01:42:13,320
Speaker 1: Remember that is exactly how she was expected to save

1732
01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:15,960
Speaker 1: up money to get away from him at age thirteen

1733
01:42:16,040 --> 01:42:19,720
Speaker 1: and fourteen, And for the first time, Dolores tells Humbert, no,

1734
01:42:20,360 --> 01:42:22,800
Speaker 1: she is not going to do that. Humbert gives her

1735
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:25,519
Speaker 1: the money anyways, because it's hers. He asks her to

1736
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:28,240
Speaker 1: come with him, because he's decided that he has actually

1737
01:42:28,280 --> 01:42:31,960
Speaker 1: loved her the whole time. She says no again. Humbert

1738
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:34,960
Speaker 1: does not control her fate in the direct sense anymore,

1739
01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:37,559
Speaker 1: for denying him would have a price in the form

1740
01:42:37,600 --> 01:42:40,559
Speaker 1: of abuse. During her childhood. She has formed a support

1741
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:44,000
Speaker 1: system around her, and she says no. And this time

1742
01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:46,840
Speaker 1: saying no does not mean that she has to transfer

1743
01:42:46,920 --> 01:42:49,840
Speaker 1: to another abuser, and she doesn't need to capitulate to

1744
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:52,960
Speaker 1: his physical abuse or his threats. She tells him no,

1745
01:42:53,320 --> 01:42:56,160
Speaker 1: and he has no choice but to respect her wish.

1746
01:42:56,760 --> 01:42:59,960
Speaker 1: This is what hit for me. His control over her

1747
01:43:00,200 --> 01:43:03,840
Speaker 1: is gone, but that doesn't mean that she's won. The

1748
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:07,800
Speaker 1: damage to Dolorus Hayes's life is clear. If Humbert had

1749
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:12,160
Speaker 1: never manipulated her family, I still secretly think managed to

1750
01:43:12,200 --> 01:43:15,360
Speaker 1: get rid of her mother and destroy her support system

1751
01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:18,040
Speaker 1: by asserting himself as her guardian, she wouldn't be in

1752
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:20,560
Speaker 1: this position. She wanted to be an actor. She was

1753
01:43:20,600 --> 01:43:23,120
Speaker 1: the best tennis player at her school. She was smart,

1754
01:43:23,200 --> 01:43:26,439
Speaker 1: she had potential. She had difficulties and loss and growing

1755
01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:28,880
Speaker 1: pains that her mother couldn't handle. But there's no doubt

1756
01:43:28,920 --> 01:43:31,720
Speaker 1: that Dolorus Hayes's life would have been so different if

1757
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:34,519
Speaker 1: Humbert Humbert hadn't appeared in it, even he has to

1758
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:38,479
Speaker 1: admit it. Quote. Nothing could make my lowly to forget

1759
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:42,200
Speaker 1: the foul lust I inflicted upon her unless it can

1760
01:43:42,240 --> 01:43:45,240
Speaker 1: be proven to me, To me, as I am now today,

1761
01:43:45,360 --> 01:43:48,720
Speaker 1: with my heart and my beard and my putrefaction, that

1762
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:51,599
Speaker 1: in the infinite run, it does not matter a jot

1763
01:43:51,840 --> 01:43:55,040
Speaker 1: that a North American girl child named Dolores Hayes had

1764
01:43:55,080 --> 01:43:58,320
Speaker 1: been deprived of her childhood by a maniac. Unless this

1765
01:43:58,400 --> 01:44:00,599
Speaker 1: can be proven, and if it can end, then life

1766
01:44:00,680 --> 01:44:03,120
Speaker 1: is a joke. I see nothing for the treatment of

1767
01:44:03,160 --> 01:44:07,479
Speaker 1: my misery unquote. And yes, that is the classic self

1768
01:44:07,560 --> 01:44:11,360
Speaker 1: pitying Humbert bullshit style, But there is some truth in there.

1769
01:44:11,800 --> 01:44:15,400
Speaker 1: So yes, Humbert puts a bullet in quilty who gives

1770
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:17,479
Speaker 1: a ship. As far as I'm concerned, it's the only

1771
01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:20,519
Speaker 1: decent thing he's done. But it appears that Nabukoff wants

1772
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:23,320
Speaker 1: us to believe that he kills Dolores too. As John

1773
01:44:23,360 --> 01:44:25,920
Speaker 1: Ray tells it, Dolores dies giving birth to a son

1774
01:44:26,040 --> 01:44:31,760
Speaker 1: in a final strangely gendered punishment, but her childhood was

1775
01:44:31,800 --> 01:44:34,800
Speaker 1: taken from her by her abuser and by a society

1776
01:44:34,840 --> 01:44:37,160
Speaker 1: that made her realize from a very young age that

1777
01:44:37,280 --> 01:44:40,280
Speaker 1: telling the truth would only make her life harder. It's

1778
01:44:40,280 --> 01:44:43,120
Speaker 1: a really cruel fate, and when I still find to

1779
01:44:43,160 --> 01:44:45,960
Speaker 1: be extremely harsh coming from the pen of a child

1780
01:44:45,960 --> 01:44:49,360
Speaker 1: sex abuse survivor who lived to write it. Probably the

1781
01:44:49,400 --> 01:44:52,200
Speaker 1: only thing I like about the Stanley Kubrick adaptation is

1782
01:44:52,200 --> 01:44:55,000
Speaker 1: that Lolita lives at the end, but that's not how

1783
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:58,439
Speaker 1: this story goes. The scene I just described takes place

1784
01:44:58,479 --> 01:45:03,400
Speaker 1: only three years after Dolores escapes Howards Clutches. Three years

1785
01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:06,920
Speaker 1: she's still a kid and encountered only more abuse and

1786
01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:10,439
Speaker 1: hardship after escaping him. What really strikes me is, in

1787
01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:13,080
Speaker 1: spite of the strength she shows here and the life

1788
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:16,000
Speaker 1: that she builts for herself against every odd she still

1789
01:45:16,040 --> 01:45:20,120
Speaker 1: reflectively apologizes to Humbert for quote unquote cheating on him.

1790
01:45:20,160 --> 01:45:22,479
Speaker 1: There's no way that she's gotten the chance that she

1791
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:25,840
Speaker 1: deserved to process all the harm that had been inflicted

1792
01:45:25,880 --> 01:45:28,360
Speaker 1: on her. Here's a kid trying to build a life

1793
01:45:28,439 --> 01:45:31,120
Speaker 1: away from the abuse that she suffered in order to

1794
01:45:31,200 --> 01:45:34,160
Speaker 1: raise a kid on her own without anyone that she

1795
01:45:34,240 --> 01:45:38,920
Speaker 1: trusts with this information. Dolores deserved more because she represents

1796
01:45:39,000 --> 01:45:44,400
Speaker 1: a lot of people. I've been thinking about my grandmother

1797
01:45:44,640 --> 01:45:48,120
Speaker 1: quite a bit. She was born two years before Dolores.

1798
01:45:48,479 --> 01:45:51,360
Speaker 1: It was very complicated and and sad. My grandma wasn't

1799
01:45:51,400 --> 01:45:54,080
Speaker 1: a very nice person to most of us, certainly not

1800
01:45:54,160 --> 01:45:56,639
Speaker 1: to her daughters or her husband, and I wasn't allowed

1801
01:45:56,680 --> 01:45:58,720
Speaker 1: to see her or interact with her after I was

1802
01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:03,160
Speaker 1: five years old. She suffered from mental illness and alcoholism

1803
01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:06,000
Speaker 1: almost her entire life, but she was never willing to

1804
01:46:06,040 --> 01:46:08,320
Speaker 1: get help for what she was struggling with. A lot

1805
01:46:08,360 --> 01:46:10,519
Speaker 1: of that I believe had to do with how she

1806
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:13,439
Speaker 1: was raised in the forties and fifties and much later.

1807
01:46:13,880 --> 01:46:17,519
Speaker 1: Admitting that you need help indicated weakness, that something was

1808
01:46:17,560 --> 01:46:21,800
Speaker 1: wrong with you, that you were lesser. She was too ashamed,

1809
01:46:22,200 --> 01:46:24,720
Speaker 1: I think, to confront those problems, and in a lot

1810
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:27,639
Speaker 1: of ways, it led to her isolating herself from most

1811
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:29,920
Speaker 1: of the people in her life all the way up

1812
01:46:30,000 --> 01:46:33,679
Speaker 1: until her death. It hits for me, especially because although

1813
01:46:33,720 --> 01:46:36,240
Speaker 1: she was never willing to see a mental health professional

1814
01:46:36,360 --> 01:46:39,680
Speaker 1: in her lifetime, I am pretty nearly certain that I

1815
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:42,439
Speaker 1: have the same mental illness she did, and getting help

1816
01:46:42,520 --> 01:46:46,360
Speaker 1: for it has changed the direction of my life, even

1817
01:46:46,360 --> 01:46:49,439
Speaker 1: when it fucking sucks. The reason that she's been on

1818
01:46:49,479 --> 01:46:52,040
Speaker 1: my mind is because when I was a teenager, my

1819
01:46:52,080 --> 01:46:55,439
Speaker 1: grandmother told people that she had been sexually abused as

1820
01:46:55,439 --> 01:46:57,880
Speaker 1: a child by her brother. I don't remember what the

1821
01:46:57,920 --> 01:47:00,960
Speaker 1: circumstances were that made her bring it up, but I

1822
01:47:01,000 --> 01:47:04,400
Speaker 1: do remember that as a kid, it didn't seem like

1823
01:47:04,560 --> 01:47:08,439
Speaker 1: many people believed her, and I didn't question it. This

1824
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:10,680
Speaker 1: would have been the late two thousands, and while she

1825
01:47:10,800 --> 01:47:13,800
Speaker 1: truly had nothing to gain by bringing this up, it's

1826
01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:17,640
Speaker 1: still generally was not believed. And I think about that

1827
01:47:17,720 --> 01:47:20,880
Speaker 1: in the context of everything else about her life, and

1828
01:47:21,200 --> 01:47:24,679
Speaker 1: without excusing the abuse and pain she inflicted on the family.

1829
01:47:24,960 --> 01:47:28,120
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that kind of pain and to come

1830
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:31,839
Speaker 1: forward with something like that in your seventies and still

1831
01:47:32,080 --> 01:47:35,000
Speaker 1: almost no one believes you. This was a woman who

1832
01:47:35,040 --> 01:47:37,320
Speaker 1: lied to us about a lot of things, but on

1833
01:47:37,479 --> 01:47:40,360
Speaker 1: this point I see no reason not to believe her,

1834
01:47:40,720 --> 01:47:44,160
Speaker 1: and many family members have changed their minds over the years.

1835
01:47:45,040 --> 01:47:48,080
Speaker 1: For the entirety of my grandma's life, there was not

1836
01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:52,920
Speaker 1: any public encouragement to believe those who had suffered abuse

1837
01:47:53,680 --> 01:47:57,599
Speaker 1: it's so bleak to consider, but experiencing abuse for me

1838
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:03,680
Speaker 1: was comparatively easy. At least someone believed me eventually, and

1839
01:48:03,760 --> 01:48:06,160
Speaker 1: I was living in a time where there were tools

1840
01:48:06,200 --> 01:48:09,639
Speaker 1: and resources to navigate with. I think that we forget

1841
01:48:09,680 --> 01:48:16,960
Speaker 1: sometimes seven talking about PTSD, mental health, health, feminism at all.

1842
01:48:17,240 --> 01:48:21,400
Speaker 1: Outside of voting and having a job under dress, There's

1843
01:48:21,439 --> 01:48:24,719
Speaker 1: not that much going on in these conversations in post

1844
01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:27,920
Speaker 1: World War two in the US. My grandma came of

1845
01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:31,920
Speaker 1: age in one of the least empowering times for survivors

1846
01:48:31,960 --> 01:48:35,640
Speaker 1: of assault or for women in the past century in

1847
01:48:35,680 --> 01:48:39,320
Speaker 1: the US. And I didn't really know her, but I

1848
01:48:39,400 --> 01:48:42,559
Speaker 1: know enough about the time she came of aging to

1849
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:46,599
Speaker 1: know that coming forward for her was really not an option.

1850
01:48:47,520 --> 01:48:51,640
Speaker 1: And seeing Dolores in this context, I had to go.

1851
01:48:52,960 --> 01:48:55,599
Speaker 1: They have quite a bit in common. It's I had

1852
01:48:55,640 --> 01:48:57,960
Speaker 1: to I had to go on a walk. She and

1853
01:48:58,000 --> 01:49:01,599
Speaker 1: my grandfather were married the same year that Nabokov published

1854
01:49:01,760 --> 01:49:06,960
Speaker 1: Lolita in nine, over fifty years before she ever spoke

1855
01:49:07,040 --> 01:49:10,719
Speaker 1: about her abuse out loud, and still no one believed her.

1856
01:49:11,000 --> 01:49:13,479
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about my mom, who was born in

1857
01:49:13,520 --> 01:49:17,280
Speaker 1: the sixties and only recently started really dealing with events

1858
01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:19,320
Speaker 1: that happened to her when she was a young adult.

1859
01:49:19,560 --> 01:49:23,000
Speaker 1: And I'm encouraged by her open mind and forgive herself

1860
01:49:23,040 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 1: the shame about things that weren't her fault, starting in

1861
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:27,920
Speaker 1: just kind of the past couple of years. And I

1862
01:49:27,920 --> 01:49:30,080
Speaker 1: can also see how that shame was projected onto me

1863
01:49:30,160 --> 01:49:32,760
Speaker 1: when I was struggling with abuse. I can see how

1864
01:49:32,800 --> 01:49:35,600
Speaker 1: I projected my own shame onto others before I was

1865
01:49:35,800 --> 01:49:39,840
Speaker 1: willing to deal with things. So, no, Dolores Hayes is

1866
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:43,599
Speaker 1: not a perfect victim, because no one is. She didn't

1867
01:49:43,760 --> 01:49:46,639
Speaker 1: live to get to tell her own story. The person

1868
01:49:46,640 --> 01:49:49,920
Speaker 1: who destroyed her life got to do that. As it stands,

1869
01:49:49,920 --> 01:49:52,639
Speaker 1: she is really one of the only cultural figures that

1870
01:49:53,080 --> 01:49:58,960
Speaker 1: represents someone navigating child sex abuse. But it's and it's

1871
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:02,120
Speaker 1: still her fault to a lot of people. There are

1872
01:50:02,120 --> 01:50:05,840
Speaker 1: a few things that I feel more sure about after

1873
01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:09,880
Speaker 1: working on this show for the past eight months. First,

1874
01:50:10,080 --> 01:50:13,800
Speaker 1: that there is a desperate, pressing need to change the

1875
01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:16,479
Speaker 1: way we talk about child sex abuse as a culture,

1876
01:50:16,720 --> 01:50:18,840
Speaker 1: and by that, I mean we need to try to

1877
01:50:18,880 --> 01:50:21,240
Speaker 1: talk about it. If we're at a point where a

1878
01:50:21,360 --> 01:50:25,400
Speaker 1: cult like Q and On can disenfranchise survivors of child

1879
01:50:25,439 --> 01:50:28,640
Speaker 1: sex abuse with conspiracy theories. How much clearer could it

1880
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:31,400
Speaker 1: be that we have not had an honest conversation about

1881
01:50:31,400 --> 01:50:33,360
Speaker 1: how to prevent it. There is work to be done

1882
01:50:33,400 --> 01:50:36,280
Speaker 1: in the psychology space, there is work to be done

1883
01:50:36,280 --> 01:50:39,120
Speaker 1: in the education space, in the parenting space, and as

1884
01:50:39,160 --> 01:50:42,559
Speaker 1: with many things, having this discussion comes hand in hand

1885
01:50:42,640 --> 01:50:46,680
Speaker 1: with dismantling the racial, sexual, and gender based prejudices that

1886
01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:50,040
Speaker 1: come with it. Because the numbers are there, it is

1887
01:50:50,080 --> 01:50:53,799
Speaker 1: a near certainty that if you have not experienced sexual

1888
01:50:53,880 --> 01:50:57,280
Speaker 1: abuse yourself, you know someone who has. So what good

1889
01:50:57,360 --> 01:51:00,280
Speaker 1: could it possibly do to not challenge the cult trill

1890
01:51:00,360 --> 01:51:04,680
Speaker 1: narrative that empowers abusers and reassures non abusers who are

1891
01:51:04,720 --> 01:51:08,160
Speaker 1: apathetic towards the issue. It helps nobody. It does nothing.

1892
01:51:08,400 --> 01:51:11,160
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's easy, but as Zoe was

1893
01:51:11,200 --> 01:51:14,920
Speaker 1: describing earlier, it's a matter of empowering young people to

1894
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:19,240
Speaker 1: recognize abuse of tendencies instead of being encouraged to accept

1895
01:51:19,280 --> 01:51:22,080
Speaker 1: it and even glorify it. It's a matter of finding

1896
01:51:22,080 --> 01:51:25,559
Speaker 1: ways for those at risk to abuse before harming someone.

1897
01:51:26,160 --> 01:51:29,120
Speaker 1: Another thing I've learned is what being labeled as a

1898
01:51:29,200 --> 01:51:33,080
Speaker 1: lolita does do you. Whether it's done literally as it

1899
01:51:33,160 --> 01:51:36,240
Speaker 1: was done with Sue Lyon, or whether it's done figuratively

1900
01:51:36,520 --> 01:51:40,400
Speaker 1: to suggest that being a person navigating their own sexuality

1901
01:51:40,520 --> 01:51:44,240
Speaker 1: while being abused somehow makes it your fault. And I've

1902
01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:47,639
Speaker 1: learned that telling an honest story about abuse that does

1903
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:50,759
Speaker 1: not put an underage actor at risk by showing abuse

1904
01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:54,160
Speaker 1: explicitly doesn't tend to make money. And I hate how

1905
01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:56,280
Speaker 1: cynical that sounds, but I think a lot of the

1906
01:51:56,320 --> 01:51:59,320
Speaker 1: reason that media that reaches us does so is because

1907
01:51:59,320 --> 01:52:03,559
Speaker 1: it's market it's low risk. That's changed to an extent

1908
01:52:03,680 --> 01:52:05,559
Speaker 1: with the Internet. But I don't think, as much as

1909
01:52:05,560 --> 01:52:08,559
Speaker 1: we would like to believe, part of why Lolita is

1910
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:11,679
Speaker 1: such an effective book, I think is because it's written

1911
01:52:11,720 --> 01:52:14,559
Speaker 1: by an excellent writer who is a survivor of child

1912
01:52:14,600 --> 01:52:17,160
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, who didn't give a shit if he made

1913
01:52:17,160 --> 01:52:20,280
Speaker 1: any money off of it. And that last part, unfortunately

1914
01:52:20,640 --> 01:52:24,040
Speaker 1: is critical by all accounts. On top of hiring male

1915
01:52:24,120 --> 01:52:27,040
Speaker 1: creators with little to no insight on the subject matter

1916
01:52:27,080 --> 01:52:30,439
Speaker 1: in adaptation, any insight included in the project at its

1917
01:52:30,479 --> 01:52:34,240
Speaker 1: beginning was eliminated, and when that old capitalistic logic kicked in,

1918
01:52:34,479 --> 01:52:37,800
Speaker 1: this happens in every adaptation of Lolita. We're not going

1919
01:52:37,880 --> 01:52:40,400
Speaker 1: to give you money if the protagonist is a bankable

1920
01:52:40,439 --> 01:52:43,880
Speaker 1: movie star playing an irredeemable child sex abuser. So no,

1921
01:52:44,040 --> 01:52:47,400
Speaker 1: Dolores Hayes has not gotten a fair shot, and that

1922
01:52:47,439 --> 01:52:50,080
Speaker 1: makes it a lot easier to continue to use her

1923
01:52:50,120 --> 01:52:53,559
Speaker 1: image to oppress other survivors. In terms of course, correcting

1924
01:52:53,640 --> 01:52:57,000
Speaker 1: popular media that blames people for the abuse they experienced,

1925
01:52:57,160 --> 01:53:00,240
Speaker 1: Dolores is a very logical place to start. A good

1926
01:53:00,280 --> 01:53:03,439
Speaker 1: adaptation of Lolita is not going to change everything. There

1927
01:53:03,520 --> 01:53:05,680
Speaker 1: is a need for stories about child sex abuse that

1928
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:09,120
Speaker 1: centers survivors of all kinds. But I do think that

1929
01:53:09,200 --> 01:53:13,479
Speaker 1: a thoughtful adaptation of Lolita that prioritizes Delorous Hayes could

1930
01:53:13,520 --> 01:53:16,439
Speaker 1: give us some amount of closure on how our culture

1931
01:53:16,439 --> 01:53:19,480
Speaker 1: thinks about this story. And I think that that's absolutely

1932
01:53:19,520 --> 01:53:22,360
Speaker 1: a worthwhile thing to do. There is a way to

1933
01:53:22,479 --> 01:53:26,120
Speaker 1: make Humbert the despicable person he is through adaptation. He

1934
01:53:26,160 --> 01:53:29,080
Speaker 1: tells us hundreds of times who he is. There is

1935
01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:31,840
Speaker 1: a feasible adaptation where he tries to win your favor

1936
01:53:32,000 --> 01:53:34,800
Speaker 1: and loses. Because the thing that is always true with

1937
01:53:34,880 --> 01:53:38,720
Speaker 1: Lolita is it matters how it's framed to you. I

1938
01:53:38,720 --> 01:53:41,920
Speaker 1: would love to live in a media landscape where saying

1939
01:53:41,960 --> 01:53:46,040
Speaker 1: Lolita is not shorthand for underaged person who deserves and

1940
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:49,599
Speaker 1: is turned on by being sexually abused, because there shouldn't

1941
01:53:49,640 --> 01:53:51,800
Speaker 1: be a fucking word for that. It's not a thing,

1942
01:53:52,280 --> 01:53:55,599
Speaker 1: and that's not who Dolorous Hayes was. I think drawing

1943
01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:59,360
Speaker 1: attention to this cultural fallacy could make people think differently,

1944
01:53:59,479 --> 01:54:02,920
Speaker 1: both audiences who have spent decades of their adult life

1945
01:54:03,000 --> 01:54:06,400
Speaker 1: thinking Lolita was asking for it, and for young audiences

1946
01:54:06,439 --> 01:54:10,000
Speaker 1: being introduced to the story under false pretenses to encourage

1947
01:54:10,040 --> 01:54:12,280
Speaker 1: them to think of this kind of abuse as normal.

1948
01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:15,160
Speaker 1: Especially after speaking with Eva, I do think that there

1949
01:54:15,200 --> 01:54:18,559
Speaker 1: need to be more stories about survivors who are able

1950
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:22,599
Speaker 1: to thrive. Lolita is not that story, but I know

1951
01:54:22,880 --> 01:54:26,160
Speaker 1: that it has a lot of value. Humbered and Nabokov's

1952
01:54:26,400 --> 01:54:30,080
Speaker 1: immortalizing the image of Lolita killed off the reality of

1953
01:54:30,120 --> 01:54:33,120
Speaker 1: Dolores Hayes, just as she has killed off in the book.

1954
01:54:33,360 --> 01:54:36,480
Speaker 1: But her story mattered, and no matter what garbage book

1955
01:54:36,520 --> 01:54:40,080
Speaker 1: cover tells you it's the only convincing love story of

1956
01:54:40,120 --> 01:54:44,000
Speaker 1: the century, that's not true. Dolores Hayes is in there,

1957
01:54:44,240 --> 01:54:47,320
Speaker 1: and just as scholars and artists and everyday people who

1958
01:54:47,360 --> 01:54:50,680
Speaker 1: see themselves in mythic figures have torn through the bullshit

1959
01:54:50,880 --> 01:54:54,879
Speaker 1: that abused characters have been mired in since BC. Dolores

1960
01:54:54,960 --> 01:54:58,839
Speaker 1: deserves that same chance. She is a uniquely American mythic

1961
01:54:58,880 --> 01:55:03,040
Speaker 1: figure who speaks to the universal societal plague that is

1962
01:55:03,080 --> 01:55:06,080
Speaker 1: c S, a child sex abuse that no one wants

1963
01:55:06,120 --> 01:55:08,440
Speaker 1: to talk about, and when no one talks about it,

1964
01:55:08,760 --> 01:55:14,120
Speaker 1: nothing changes. And maybe it sounds silly to say justice

1965
01:55:14,200 --> 01:55:18,000
Speaker 1: for Dolores, you know, justice for a person who is fictional,

1966
01:55:18,680 --> 01:55:22,840
Speaker 1: But it isn't silly, I don't think, because she represents

1967
01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:27,800
Speaker 1: a lot to a lot of people across many generations.

1968
01:55:27,840 --> 01:55:31,520
Speaker 1: She means a lot to me. There are entire communities,

1969
01:55:31,760 --> 01:55:35,120
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people over the past sixty five

1970
01:55:35,240 --> 01:55:39,360
Speaker 1: years who have connected with this character because they saw

1971
01:55:39,400 --> 01:55:43,720
Speaker 1: her in this text. They saw themselves or their friend,

1972
01:55:44,080 --> 01:55:47,840
Speaker 1: or their sibling or their parents, and they saw how

1973
01:55:47,880 --> 01:55:53,320
Speaker 1: the world misinterpreted this character's circumstance. And when they ran

1974
01:55:53,360 --> 01:55:56,440
Speaker 1: out of things to see about her, they kept looking

1975
01:55:56,640 --> 01:56:01,800
Speaker 1: because Dolores Hayes represents a person who deserved to survive,

1976
01:56:02,200 --> 01:56:05,560
Speaker 1: and a lot of people see themselves in that. She

1977
01:56:05,800 --> 01:56:09,640
Speaker 1: deserved more and didn't get it because survivors of abuse

1978
01:56:09,720 --> 01:56:13,360
Speaker 1: deserve more and rarely get it. Her abuser was taken

1979
01:56:13,400 --> 01:56:17,400
Speaker 1: at his word because historically that is overwhelmingly the case,

1980
01:56:17,880 --> 01:56:20,280
Speaker 1: and she's killed before she ever gets to find her

1981
01:56:20,320 --> 01:56:23,640
Speaker 1: peace with it or thrive in spite of it. There

1982
01:56:23,760 --> 01:56:28,080
Speaker 1: is a poem Buying Nabokov called on Discovering a Butterfly.

1983
01:56:28,760 --> 01:56:32,240
Speaker 1: It's short and it's beautiful, and it's about a butterfly,

1984
01:56:32,520 --> 01:56:36,560
Speaker 1: not a thirteen year old survivor. But it just listen.

1985
01:56:36,640 --> 01:56:41,120
Speaker 1: Here's how it concludes. Dark pictures, thrones, the stones that

1986
01:56:41,200 --> 01:56:44,760
Speaker 1: pilgrims kiss, poems that take a thousand years to die,

1987
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:48,400
Speaker 1: but ape the immortality of this red label on a

1988
01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 1: little butterfly. Dolores is read. Label has been misread, and

1989
01:56:55,920 --> 01:56:58,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't need to take a thousand years for us

1990
01:56:58,600 --> 01:57:01,960
Speaker 1: to try and read it close Are everything you knew

1991
01:57:02,000 --> 01:57:06,840
Speaker 1: about Lolita is wrong? Dolores Hayes is a figure worth

1992
01:57:06,920 --> 01:57:12,120
Speaker 1: fighting for. So will that ever happen? You tell me?

1993
01:57:13,200 --> 01:57:19,600
Speaker 1: This was Lolita Podcast. Lolita Podcast is an I Heart

1994
01:57:19,680 --> 01:57:23,880
Speaker 1: radio production. It was written and hosted by me Jamie Loftus,

1995
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:27,680
Speaker 1: produced by Sophie Lichterman, Beth Anne Markoliso, Miles Gray, and

1996
01:57:27,760 --> 01:57:31,680
Speaker 1: Jack O'Brien. It was edited by the amazing Isaac Taylor.

1997
01:57:32,040 --> 01:57:35,440
Speaker 1: Music was from Zoe Blade, our theme was from Brad Dickert,

1998
01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:38,960
Speaker 1: and my guest voices this week were Caitlin Toronte and

1999
01:57:39,080 --> 01:57:43,040
Speaker 1: Robert Evans as Vladimir Nabokov. I want to sincerely thank

2000
01:57:43,120 --> 01:57:45,680
Speaker 1: everyone that has been with me in the journey of

2001
01:57:45,720 --> 01:57:48,840
Speaker 1: making this show. I want to thank the members and

2002
01:57:49,000 --> 01:57:53,240
Speaker 1: moderators of our discord who have been so kind and

2003
01:57:53,320 --> 01:57:56,760
Speaker 1: so open with their experiences and with each other. I

2004
01:57:56,760 --> 01:57:59,000
Speaker 1: want to think my partner and my very stinky pets.

2005
01:57:59,040 --> 01:58:01,280
Speaker 1: I don't know how I would have gotten this show

2006
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:05,680
Speaker 1: done without them, so thank you for an amazing ride here.

2007
01:58:05,840 --> 01:58:08,320
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to make a podcast about hot

2008
01:58:08,360 --> 01:58:22,440
Speaker 1: dogs next Bye.