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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast. George

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Speaker 1: Noria with you along with the doctor Jim Papendrea. His

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Speaker 1: book is What Really Happens After We Die. Jim is

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Speaker 1: an author and professor of church history and historical theology.

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Speaker 1: A Catholic lay person, Jim has a degree from Full

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Speaker 1: of Theological Seminary a PhD from Northwestern University in the

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Speaker 1: history and theology of Early Christian Church Second Concentrations, a

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Speaker 1: New Testament interpretation in the history of the Roman Empire.

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Speaker 1: He has also studied Roman history at the American Academy

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Speaker 1: in Rome, Italy. Currently on the faculty of the Garrett

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Speaker 1: Evangelical Theological Seminary. He's also a senior fellow of the

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Speaker 1: Saint Paul Center for Biblical Theology and his book is

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Speaker 1: called What Really Happens After We Die? Jim, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the program, first time. I understand that's right. It's great

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Speaker 1: to be with you, George. Thanks a lot, appreciate being

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Speaker 1: on a show. How did you get interested in after

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Speaker 1: death studies? Well, you know, I kind of backed into

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Speaker 1: it actually because you know, my day job is studying

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Speaker 1: and teaching the history and the theology of early and

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Speaker 1: medieval Christianity. So I am reading these ancient documents for

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Speaker 1: a living and one of the themes I came across

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Speaker 1: in these ancient documents was this doctrine of what we

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Speaker 1: call the resurrection. And I saw a consensus across these

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Speaker 1: these early Christians, theologians, and philosophers. We call them the

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Speaker 1: church fathers, and uh, you know, it became clear to

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Speaker 1: me that they had a particular way of thinking about

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Speaker 1: the afterlife, and so I decided to write a book

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Speaker 1: about it, and really just did the research for the book.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever contemplate the gem of becoming a priest? Uh? No,

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Speaker 1: not really. I mean I at one time was ordained

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Speaker 1: in a Protestant denomination before coming back to the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: But I really discerned that that kind of church leadership

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Speaker 1: was not my calling and my calling was to the classroom.

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Speaker 1: And so even though I did some time, you know,

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Speaker 1: in that kind of ministry, it really wasn't it really

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Speaker 1: wasn't the right fit for me. I had the aerospace

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Speaker 1: guru Robert Bigelow on the program yesterday and he has

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Speaker 1: just created a one point eight million dollar contest to

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Speaker 1: twenty nine people who've already signed up to discuss the

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Speaker 1: afterlife and to convince him that it's real. And he's

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Speaker 1: giving out the awards very soon. One person has already

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Speaker 1: won five hundred thousand. They're going to officially announce who

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Speaker 1: that is in December. But gosh, we could have gotten

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Speaker 1: you into that. Well, you know, I mean, part of

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Speaker 1: the thing is I guess that it's a matter of faith,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm not sure it's possible to prove it

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Speaker 1: to that extent. I think if it were possible to

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Speaker 1: prove it, then it wouldn't require faith, and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe then it would cheapen it. I don't know. We'll see,

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Speaker 1: but I'll be interested to see what the argument is

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Speaker 1: of the person who wins. Now, of course, the question

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Speaker 1: you ask in your book, who really what really happens

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Speaker 1: after we die? Tell me about that question? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things, of course, that all religions deal with,

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Speaker 1: I think, is the boundaries of life and the you know,

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Speaker 1: the apparent finality of death. And you know, ancient cultures

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Speaker 1: feared death because it seems to be the end of existence,

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Speaker 1: and ancient cultures also had a kind of aversion to

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Speaker 1: the bodies of the dead. And you know, Jews were

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Speaker 1: considered unclean if they touched a dead body. Romans cremated

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Speaker 1: their dead, and you know, had a sort of superstition

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Speaker 1: about that. But then along come Christians who have this

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Speaker 1: radical courage in the face of death, who are even

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Speaker 1: willing to die for their faith because they believe in

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Speaker 1: something bigger than life and something beyond life. And and

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Speaker 1: so you know, I think it's only natural for all

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Speaker 1: all humans to sort of ask these questions, is there

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Speaker 1: something more? Is is death the end? Or is it

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Speaker 1: a transition into something else? And you know, our tradition

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Speaker 1: teaches that it that it's not the end, and that

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Speaker 1: it's a transition. And are you convinced that yourself? I am,

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Speaker 1: and I you know, it's one of those things where

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Speaker 1: you have experience of the divine in your life that

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Speaker 1: you know, these are the kinds of experiences that you

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Speaker 1: know to be true, but that you couldn't necessarily prove

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Speaker 1: to other people. But when you add up all those

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Speaker 1: experiences and you put together all the people who have

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Speaker 1: gone before us in our tradition and who have taught

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Speaker 1: about this and who who have had these things sort

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Speaker 1: of come to them through uh, you know, revelation, through

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Speaker 1: the reading of sacred texts. When you put all that together, UM,

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Speaker 1: I have a confidence that I think I share with

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Speaker 1: a lot of other Christians. But again, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's uh, it's the kind of thing like you know,

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Speaker 1: you you if a if a person who's a native

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Speaker 1: of Alaska, um has no experience with palm trees. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, it might be hard for someone from the

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Speaker 1: islands to convince them that palm trees exist. But but

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Speaker 1: but you know they do because you have this experience

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Speaker 1: that that you maybe can't give that experience to other people,

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Speaker 1: but in your own heart, you know it's true. Now,

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Speaker 1: earlier you talked about resurrection, and I think, of course

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Speaker 1: about Jesus and the resurrection, but we don't do that

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Speaker 1: as humans. When we die, it's our soul, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: that's the that's the thing, George, I mean, UM, I

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Speaker 1: think if you were to, um, you know, just sort

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Speaker 1: of take a poll of the person on the street

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Speaker 1: and ask people what what happens when you die? Most

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Speaker 1: people would say, okay, well your soul leaves your body.

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Speaker 1: And then if the person believes in an afterlife. They

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Speaker 1: would say the soul perhaps goes to another realm or

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Speaker 1: dimension where it lives on and experiences some sort of

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Speaker 1: eternal life, And that is part of the answer, but

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Speaker 1: it's only part of it, because ultimately the sort of

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Speaker 1: end goal of the human is not to be a

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Speaker 1: disembodied spirit, but is to be reunited with the body. Now,

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Speaker 1: the body is going to be transformed, but resurrection is

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Speaker 1: the the reuniting of a transformed body with that spirit.

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Speaker 1: And so if you think about, you know, a caterpillar

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Speaker 1: becoming a butterfly, you're actually not far off. You know,

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Speaker 1: a caterpillar could never understand the life of a butterfly

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Speaker 1: until it becomes one. It seems to be a completely

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Speaker 1: different creature. And yet it's the same individual that goes

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Speaker 1: into that cocoon that comes out later transformed. And so

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Speaker 1: for us, we believe that we don't just become disembodied spirits.

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Speaker 1: That happens at first, but ultimately we will be reunited

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Speaker 1: with that transformed body because we were created to be

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Speaker 1: not disembodied spirits, but embodied spirits, which is what we

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Speaker 1: will be in the end. Jim about thirty three hundred

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Speaker 1: years ago there was a manuscript written on papyrus called

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Speaker 1: the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and then in the

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Speaker 1: eighth century there was a Tibetan Book of the Dead.

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Speaker 1: It was basically a guide for what people could expect.

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Speaker 1: How did they know this stuff? Well, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how any Egyptians or Tibetans would claim to know what

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Speaker 1: happens after death. The way that Christians claim to know

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Speaker 1: what happens after death is because we sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: we look at the documented experience of Jesus himself and

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Speaker 1: we sort of extrapolate from that. We look at the

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Speaker 1: things he taught and because we believe that he was

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Speaker 1: inspired by Divinity, that he was uh and is God

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Speaker 1: incarnate that you know, there's an authority there, there's there's

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Speaker 1: a um, you know, there's something there that we can trust.

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Speaker 1: We can trust what he said and uh. And then

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Speaker 1: and then from there we look at the people who

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Speaker 1: came right after him, who knew him the way they

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Speaker 1: interpreted uh, their experience with his life, Uh, their understanding

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Speaker 1: of his teachings and UH and and we go from there.

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Speaker 1: And so we're building on two thousand years of of

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Speaker 1: our tradition, where you know, each generation is sort of

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Speaker 1: interpreting the teachings of the generation before we put that

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Speaker 1: all together. And um, that's how we would claim to

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Speaker 1: know what we know. We don't know everything, um, but

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Speaker 1: but that's how we would claim to know. Why aren't

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Speaker 1: we so fascinated gym with death? Well, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think that we have an inherent desire to exist, and

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Speaker 1: even if life isn't perfect, there is a shared desire

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Speaker 1: for life to go on. And uh, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think there's a there's a deep seated fear in the

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Speaker 1: human psyche of ceasing to exist. And so I mean

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Speaker 1: it would be fair to say that, you know, part

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Speaker 1: of our desire to understand the afterlife is a need

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Speaker 1: to believe in the afterlife. And we would be the

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Speaker 1: first to to admit that we happen to believe there

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Speaker 1: is an afterlife. And uh, you know, we we have

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Speaker 1: these authorities that we look to to tell us what

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Speaker 1: little we know about that. And that's kind of why

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Speaker 1: I wrote the book, because I wanted to sort of

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Speaker 1: put down in a book everything we do know. And

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Speaker 1: the book isn't that long because we don't know that much.

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Speaker 1: But there are certain things we do know and you know,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of what I do in the book

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Speaker 1: and say, well, look here's what we know. Beyond this,

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Speaker 1: it's a mystery until we get there. What is a ghost? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting because when I went into started,

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Speaker 1: when I started researching this, I fully expected to find

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Speaker 1: that our tradition teaches, oh, you know, ghosts don't exist,

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Speaker 1: and that's a myth. But actually that's not what I found.

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Speaker 1: What I found is that our tradition teaches ghosts do exist.

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Speaker 1: And there was a show a while back called the

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Speaker 1: Ghost Whisperer, fictional show about a woman who helps spirits,

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Speaker 1: you know, make this transition. And the assumption there is

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Speaker 1: that a ghost is the spirit of someone who is

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Speaker 1: sort of stuck here in this realm and isn't able

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Speaker 1: to cross over or make this transition. And believe it

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Speaker 1: or not, I think there's some truth in that. I

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Speaker 1: think that that premise got something right, because what our

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Speaker 1: tradition teaches a ghost is is the spirit of someone

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Speaker 1: who who is too stuck in this realm. But the

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Speaker 1: problem is they're stuck here for a reason, which is

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Speaker 1: they're too attached to this world or they're too detached

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Speaker 1: from God. So in other words, a ghost is someone

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Speaker 1: who is not going to heaven. So you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't want to become a ghost. That's true, that is

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Speaker 1: not what you want. I've had some guests that have

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Speaker 1: told me, Jim that the dead do not become angels.

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Speaker 1: Do you agree with that? I do agree with that.

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Speaker 1: An angel is a completely different created being. So you know,

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Speaker 1: we all watch It's a Wonderful Life. Right at Christmas time,

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Speaker 1: you got this character Clarence who's an angel but he

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Speaker 1: used to be a person. But that's completely a false premise.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people do not become a us, right, So

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Speaker 1: I don't even know where that comes from. But the

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Speaker 1: point of all this is that in resurrection, we are redeemed,

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Speaker 1: we are healed, we are made whole as our true

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Speaker 1: human selves, and so we don't become something other than human.

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Speaker 1: We don't cease to be human and become some other

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Speaker 1: thing like an angel. We actually are fulfilled in our humanity. UM.

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Speaker 1: We don't cease to be our selves. We don't get

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Speaker 1: absorbed into the universe. We don't lose our uniqueness or

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Speaker 1: our personality. We um, you know, we come to the

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Speaker 1: fulfillment of our humanity, which includes this transformed body that

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Speaker 1: we call the resurrection body. So, no, we don't become angels.

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Speaker 1: We become our fullest, most complete, most whole celves. Why

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Speaker 1: can't we become angelic? Well, I think you know that

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Speaker 1: that's a different question because angelic is uh sort of

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Speaker 1: an adjective. Right. We don't become angels, but we do

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Speaker 1: in a sense become angelic because we are made fit

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Speaker 1: for another realm, which is to say, a spiritual realm.

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Speaker 1: And so there, uh, there are ways in which our

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Speaker 1: tradition teaches that we become like angels. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: we won't be so focused on certain aspects of the

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Speaker 1: life we now know, um, and so so there will

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Speaker 1: be ways in which we we've become like the angels

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Speaker 1: because our existence will be more directly oriented toward God.

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Speaker 1: So we don't become angels, but you could say we

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Speaker 1: become angelic in certain ways. What do other theologians talk

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Speaker 1: about this, Joe, Well, I mean, if you're talking about

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Speaker 1: contemporary theologians, I think it's uh, you know, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of all over the map. Um. Hard to pin down

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Speaker 1: the contemporary theologians because you know, part of their part

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Speaker 1: of their job, I guess, or part of what they

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Speaker 1: do is is meant to be creative. Um, what I

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Speaker 1: do is not a creative exercise. What I do is research.

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Speaker 1: Uh you know. So what I'm looking at is the

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Speaker 1: ancient theologians and them and the ancient Christian philosophers. And

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Speaker 1: so if you're asking what they teach, well that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, because that's what I research to

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Speaker 1: write this book. I mean those, uh, those those theologians

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Speaker 1: and those philosophers from the from the period of early

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Speaker 1: and medieval Christianity. So let's say the first thousand years

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Speaker 1: of Christianity. Well, they are the authorities that I'm using

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Speaker 1: to to say what I'm saying in my book. Jim,

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Speaker 1: pap Andreo with us. How am I doing pronouncing your

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Speaker 1: last name? Yeah, that's right, pap Andrea. Very good. I

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Speaker 1: would guess that you're Greek. It's actually Italian, believe it

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Speaker 1: or not. I know it's now Really it sounds Greek. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Southern Italians so could have Greek roots if you go

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Speaker 1: back far enough, but the family recipes are all Italian.

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Speaker 1: I keep thinking of Vegas vacation, Nick, Papa Georgio. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that would be greed. I love that since with your

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Speaker 1: book What Really Happens After We Die, you have a

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Speaker 1: subtitle that is fascinating as well, and it says, how

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Speaker 1: we know there will be hugs in heaven? Tell us

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Speaker 1: about that? Well, you know, it's a little bit tongue

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Speaker 1: in cheek, but but it's it's real in this sense.

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Speaker 1: As human beings, our bodies are our interface with creation.

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Speaker 1: In other words, if you think about it, you might

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Speaker 1: think of yourself as a consciousness or a mind, and

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Speaker 1: there's truth in that. But the only way you can

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Speaker 1: interact and interface with creation and with other people is

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Speaker 1: through your body and through the five senses of your body.

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Speaker 1: That's the way we were created, and that's the way

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Speaker 1: we're meant to be. So in the afterlife, eventually, after

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Speaker 1: the resurrection, we will go back to this. Uh, this

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Speaker 1: this way we were meant to be, this way we

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Speaker 1: were created, which is to say that that we will

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Speaker 1: interface with the rest of creation through bodies, and so

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Speaker 1: we will interact with other people through bodies. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, when we are in the final heavenly realm

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Speaker 1: and after this time of resurrection, when our souls or

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Speaker 1: our spirits are reunited with our transformed bodies, um, we

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Speaker 1: will once again, um interface with each other through our bodies.

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Speaker 1: And I guess you know the whole point of that

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Speaker 1: is to say that heaven is a reunion. So if

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Speaker 1: you know, if someone has lost loved ones along the way,

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Speaker 1: loved ones who have gone before us, we will be

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Speaker 1: reunited with those people and we will be able to

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Speaker 1: interact with them once again, which you know is important

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Speaker 1: to to say again that the afterlife is not about

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Speaker 1: becoming absorbed in to the universe and losing our individuality

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Speaker 1: or our personality. No, we retain all those things about

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Speaker 1: who we are, and we will once again know the

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Speaker 1: people we knew here and and so we will interact

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Speaker 1: with them in an embodied way, which you know, That's

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Speaker 1: why I say there will be hugs in heaven. Some

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Speaker 1: people say, Jim, we have created the afterlife because of

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Speaker 1: the feeling of you know, finality with death and just

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Speaker 1: to feel as if that's it, it's all over. It's

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Speaker 1: too hard to take. Well, I mean, of course, that

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Speaker 1: is kind of the easy way out right to say that, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, all all this talk of an afterlife is

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Speaker 1: wishful thinking, and that we're really only the sum total

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Speaker 1: of our biological processes, and when those cease, then then

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Speaker 1: we cease to exist. But I think that if we

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Speaker 1: if we claim that we understand ourselves fully, I think

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Speaker 1: we're we're doing ourselves. I think that's sort of the

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Speaker 1: ultimate arrogance is to claim that that we understand ourselves

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Speaker 1: to that extent. And I would say, and I know

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Speaker 1: again that this is a matter of faith, but I

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Speaker 1: would say, look, you know, we live in a universe

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Speaker 1: where caterpillars become butterflies, and the resurrection that we believe

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Speaker 1: in and the afterlife we believe in is accomplished and

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Speaker 1: created by the same God who can turn a caterpillar

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Speaker 1: into a butterfly. And so the afterlife and the resurrection

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Speaker 1: is not any more or any less miraculous than that

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Speaker 1: kind of a thing. And so it's it's it's fair

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Speaker 1: to believe in that as as the tradition teaches us.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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