1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 2: It just doesn't seem quite a happy how right. I 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 2: think that that's the assumption that unmarried daughters mostly lived 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: in the same family home, and that I think that 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: that became an incredibly tense place for the household. That 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: there's something about it that people understand to be not working. 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: I mean partly, of course. Lindsey Borden is notoriously frank 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: and tells people that she thanks for stepmother's and me 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 2: good for nothing person, and you know, tells the sort 11 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 2: of people that she shouldn't be talking to like that, 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: like the dressmaker, for example, not just a close friend. 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 14 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 15 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 17 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories. With details that have 21 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: never been published tenfold more Wicked presents. Wicked Words is 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. 24 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 2: My name is Carra Robertson. I'm the author of the 25 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: Trial of Lizzie board. 26 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: So I want to start with how does one tackle 27 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: a story like Lizzie Borden's story that has been told? 28 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: It seems like many times? Was that a little daunting 29 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: for you? 30 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: It was a struggle to look for a new angle, 31 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: to make sure that it was something that was worthwhile 32 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: telling because it's been told really well before. But I 33 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: found that most people were interested in focusing on the 34 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: murders and very little on the trial itself. And the 35 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: trial it seemed to be offered as much of a 36 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: window onto the period as the murders themselves, and it 37 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: was story that I was well suited to tell. 38 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: Let's start with the time period. Where are we in time? 39 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: Where are we in the country? And tell me about 40 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: Fall River, Massachusetts. 41 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: Fall River, Massachusetts was America's leading textile producing town at 42 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: the time of the murders. And keep in mind, this 43 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: is America during the Gilded Age. The topography of the 44 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: town actually creates almost like a literalized map of inequality. 45 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: So that the people who are the owners of the mills, 46 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: the people who are reaping the most benefit from the 47 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: boom and the Fall River's experience at the time, live 48 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: in what's known as the hill district, which is higher, 49 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 2: and the people who work in the mills tend to 50 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: live closer to the river or the water, which provides 51 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: the hydroelectric power to run the mills. And then there's 52 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 2: an area called the flats, which is basically where the 53 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 2: central town businesses district and sort of surrounding little neighborhoods 54 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: around there. So that's where professionals would live or people 55 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: who had to go into an office to work. 56 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: So why don't we focus in a little bit more 57 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: on the Bordens. 58 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: The Burtons were among the founders of the town of 59 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: Fall River, and actually a member of the Bordon family 60 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: owned the water rights to the quick Watan River, which 61 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: is extremely important title as a town like that is developing, 62 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: and it's the river that ends up providing a lot 63 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: of hydroelectric power, and through intermarriage with four or five 64 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: other families, they basically end up controlling almost all the 65 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: mills and any of the other factories in the area. 66 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: And they all live in the same area, which is 67 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: something called the Hill district in Fall River, which is 68 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: the elite residential area. And then they run their own 69 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: little mini society with their gatherings that you would expect 70 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: and launching the young people and sort of ensuring the 71 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: continuation of the line. But not all of them prospered. 72 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: And Andrew Bordon's father was in fact a fish peddler. 73 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: That that's how low he had fallen, or at least 74 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: his branch of the family had fallen. And Andrew Borden 75 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: himself is a self made man. He begins basically making 76 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: furniture and he becomes someone who provides the caskets, which 77 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: is furniture making, and as well as all the items 78 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: that you need to hold a funeral. It's a furniture 79 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: business basically. And then he sees his future in real estate, 80 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: what we would call today a commercial real estate entrepreneur. 81 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: In the realm of society in Full River. Where does 82 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: Andrew Borden fall Is he up the hill, midway down 83 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: the hill. 84 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 2: It's a tricky question because he lives in the flat 85 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,359 Speaker 2: district of full river, which is sort of for middle 86 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 2: class professionals. On the other hand, it's very clear that 87 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: that's just his preference, that he likes to be able 88 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: to walk into town and look at his building and 89 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: speak to the tenants, and that's the extent of his interests, really, 90 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: And so he chooses to. 91 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: Live there and he marries. Before he marries Abby, is 92 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: there a lot known about him before all of this happens, 93 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: I mean, about his life and his personality and his 94 00:04:59,320 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: first marriage. 95 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: So he has a reputation of a miser and a 96 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: kind of a hard man to do business with. But 97 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: on the other hand, he is also well respected that 98 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: he seems to have friends among the most successful businessmen 99 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: in the town. His first wife is named Sarah, and 100 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: she bore three daughters, two of whom survived infancy, and 101 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 2: Lizzie Borden was the younger daughter and was free when 102 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 2: her mother died. 103 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: And we know much about Sarah, Lizzie's mom. 104 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: Well, she becomes a figure of intense speculation after the fact, 105 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 2: after the murders, because there's an attempt to search for 106 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: some madness in the family, and so there are investigations 107 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: into her and her supposed headaches and rages and things 108 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 2: that might offer some sort of explanation for Lizzie Borden's behavior, assuming, 109 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: of course, that she is the murderer. But in fact, 110 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: she is, like many women in this era, someone who 111 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 2: just lives a pretty quiet life, and very little is 112 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: known of her personally, despite the investigations that the prosecution undertakes. 113 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: Is there a way to contrast Sarah with Abby Borden 114 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: and her personality younger obviously. 115 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: Right, So Andrew and Sarah and Mary at the time 116 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 2: that younger people are expected to marry. Whereas Andrew Mary's 117 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: Abby after his first wife has died, and you know, 118 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: it seems fairly clear he's looking for someone to be 119 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: a mother to his daughters. And Abby is herself thirty 120 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: seven at the time of the marriage, which is unusually late. 121 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 2: It's not unheard of, and certainly women died in childbirth 122 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: in that period or died early, and there were second marriages. 123 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: Abby's own mother had died and her father had remarried 124 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 2: a younger woman with whom Abby had a pretty good 125 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 2: relationship as far as we can tell. Another words, she 126 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 2: comes from a family where there was a second marriage, 127 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 2: and it wasn't that odd, but it's hard to see 128 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 2: it as a love match given the personalities that the 129 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,239 Speaker 2: people involved, Given Abby's age, it's hard to say whether 130 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 2: she just thought this was an attractive option given that 131 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: her father had just remained married and the family was 132 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: not well off, and so you know, it seemed appeeling 133 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 2: to have a house of her own. Whether there was 134 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: something more there. 135 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because you know, as we get more 136 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: into this story, I know that there's speculation about tensions 137 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: between Abby and Lizzie and what might have caused this. 138 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: And I have heard you say though that Abby Borden 139 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: might have been the most pleasant person in that household. 140 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: So what gave you that impression that maybe she was 141 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: not the intended target to begin with? 142 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: Abby's the saddest figure in this whole story, because it 143 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: really does seem like really no one had anything against 144 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: her except possibly her stepdaughters, and that otherwise she actually 145 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: had had a decent relationship with them. There's a you know, 146 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: inciting incident. There's an issue with a property transfer about 147 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: five years before the murders. Her own stepmother wanted to 148 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 2: basically cash out of the family house, and that was 149 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: the house in which Abby's own half sister was living, 150 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: and she was quite devoted to that your half sister. 151 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: And so Andrew bought out Abby's stepmother so that Abby's 152 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: half sister could continue to live in the house, even 153 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: though her husband's a little bit impecunious, and so her 154 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: stepdaughters saw it as a sort of sinister act, whereas 155 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: I think, stepping back, I don't really think it was that. 156 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like an investment for Andrew, right he's 157 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: buying part of the house. Is that what happened? It's true, 158 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: you know, it was like a real estate deal. 159 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: It was exactly within his wheelhouse, something I think he 160 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: was quite comfortable doing. In an attempt to modify his daughters. 161 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: He in fact transferred title to what had been a 162 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: family house, something that was an income producing property, so 163 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: that his daughters ended up with basically an equivalent rental income. 164 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 2: But it didn't heal the breach. 165 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: How comfortable are you with the facts? How much do 166 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: we really feel like we know was happening in that household? 167 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: Can we rule out physical abuse or sexual abuse or 168 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: any of these things over the years. 169 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 2: What I would say is that the evidence site for 170 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: some of those more extreme explanations, namely the sexual abuse 171 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 2: or a kind of extreme cruelty, are either based on 172 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 2: myths or are based on our desire to make the 173 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: facts of the case conform to our own expectations. We're 174 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: always looking at things from our own historical moment. You 175 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 2: want an explanation or you want a justification for the 176 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: murders that fits the horror of the crime. 177 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: Can't we just say she was greedy and this is 178 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: how she took care of the issue. We don't always 179 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: look for the answer with men with male killers. Why 180 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: are we looking with her? 181 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: There's a very straightforward financial motive. And the financial motive 182 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: also explains the order of the murders, which is something 183 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: that otherwise doesn't make a huge amount of sense. If 184 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: you want to inherit the entire estate, if you're a descendant, 185 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: it's important to get in of the wife, who would 186 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 2: otherwise get a third first. If you're an outside murderer 187 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: who's coming to kill mister Borden, why would you kill 188 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 2: the defenseless elder woman first? And that's the part that 189 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 2: doesn't that makes less sense. 190 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about remind me of her sister's name, Emma. 191 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: That's right, Lizzie Nimma. It's eighteen ninety two, so Lizzie 192 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: is thirty two. How old is Emma? 193 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 2: Emma's nine years older. She's forty one. 194 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: So tell me about their lives. What is life like 195 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: with a middle class miser who's respected and sounds like 196 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: kind of a jerk and a stepmother. 197 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 2: They live a pretty narrow life despite basically comfortable circumstances. 198 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: The house is modest, but they have their own rooms. 199 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 2: They have limited social lives that revolve around their church 200 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: activities and other charitable pursuits. That was exactly what was 201 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 2: expected of unmarried women of their class and time, and 202 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: they visit people on occasion. At the time of the murders, 203 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: Emma was in Fairhaven, Massachusetts visiting family friends, so that 204 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: was certainly possible. Those sorts of things were possible, but 205 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: other than that, they stayed fairly close to home. 206 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: Thirty two seems a little advanced in a age to 207 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: not be married. Do we have any idea what happened 208 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: with Lizzie or with Emma. 209 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: Well, we know that the average age of marriage then 210 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: was around twenty and if you check out the society pages, 211 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: sometimes people were married a little bit later. In her 212 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: basic circle, but there were a number of unmarried women, 213 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: and if they had sufficient means, then they didn't work 214 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: at all except for the charitable work. She had some 215 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 2: friends who were school teachers or who did things that 216 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: were technically within the ambit of a woman's sphere, so 217 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: they were sort of acceptable things to do. But I 218 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: think we could say pretty clearly that the marriage market 219 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: had moved on from the Warden daughters and they were 220 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: unlikely to have those kinds of opportunities, if in fact 221 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: they were interested in them. If you look at what 222 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: is actually available in the primary sources, we see some 223 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 2: entries from diaries of Lizzie's contemporaries, and she seemed to 224 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 2: have been sort of an average person. She had periods 225 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: of what were called like blue moods once she was 226 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 2: an adolescent, which seems pretty normal. She wasn't a great student, 227 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: she wasn't a huge social butterfly, and one can't help 228 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 2: but think that she wasn't given a real opportunity to shine. 229 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 2: You can't imagine Andrew Borden holding a party because eligible 230 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 2: young men for either of his daughters, and it's just 231 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: not clear whether that was something that they were happy 232 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: with or that that was something that was a source 233 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 2: of great sadness. There's a family friend who's quite astute 234 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: named Alice Russell, and she said that they would have 235 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: liked to have been cultured girls, you know, in other words, 236 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: they would have liked to have been women who could 237 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: have maybe traveled more or did the things that the 238 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: women in that era might have done. 239 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: So somebody like Andrew Borden, what would his expectations have 240 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: been for either one of his daughters. Was Lizzie just 241 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: going to live with him forever? I mean, how was 242 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: this going to work? 243 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think that that's the assumption that unmarried daughters 244 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: mostly lived in the same family home. I think that 245 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: that became an incredibly tense place for the household. And 246 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: you see that in that after the property dispute five 247 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 2: years before the murders, that the daughters lived their lives 248 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: as separately as they can within a relatively confined household, 249 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: so that they don't eat with their parents when they 250 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: can avoid it. There's some suggestion that Andrew Warden might 251 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: have been looking for a house on the hill for 252 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: his daughters shortly before he died, and I find that 253 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 2: quite suggestive to me. That seems like some evidence that 254 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: he recognized that things were taking a turn for the worse. Yeah, 255 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: I can't imagine that he would have done that lightly, 256 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 2: because he certainly didn't want to move there himself. I 257 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 2: think he was anticipating what would happen after he died, 258 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 2: that he was starting to put his affairs in order. 259 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: What would be the motive then if they knew, unless 260 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: they didn't know, what would be the motive, then if 261 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: they were going to be moving out for all of this. 262 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 2: We don't know for sure whether or not this was 263 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 2: going to happen or what this would mean. But it's 264 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: also possible that Andrew Borden was in the process of 265 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 2: making a will or considering making a will, and he 266 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: died in testing. I mean, no will was actually found. 267 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: Oh boy. 268 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 2: So it might have been that he planned to make 269 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 2: some kind of privacy for his wife, you know, assuming 270 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: she outlived him, and in a way that would have 271 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: put his daughters at a disadvantage or at least made 272 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 2: them dependent in some way. It's hard to know even 273 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: if there was a clearcut financial motive for the murders, 274 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 2: and we're assuming for the moment that Lizzie Borden is 275 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: actually the murderer. Still, we're not talking about something that 276 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: was just a cold blooded killing, you know, kill someone, 277 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: let alone two people with a hatchet in that kind 278 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: of manner, just as a way to get more money. 279 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: There has to be some kind of deeper emotional unbalanced 280 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: at the heart of it. 281 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: So let's start with the day of the murderer. I'll 282 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: use a police term. Is there an inciting incident? 283 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: Well, the statement is different is that Andrew Borden's brother 284 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: in law, John Morris, comes by for a visit the 285 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: night before, and he is the biological uncle of Lizzie 286 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: and Emma. He's Andrew's first wife's brother, and personality wise, 287 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 2: She's shared quite a bit with his brother in law, 288 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: so they remain friends, and he used to be from 289 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: time to time. He was originally from Iowa and a 290 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: bit like Andrew Borden. He himself had money, but he 291 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: sort of dressed shabbily and he was considered to be 292 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: a sort of dubious character. He was a horse trader 293 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: and a very attractive suspect at least initially. But he's 294 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: kind of the loose spread in the Bardon household because 295 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: he arrived the night before, So it's not really clear 296 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: whether that means anything, but if you're looking for something 297 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: that was different that might have set off events as 298 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: we know them, that's the sort of obvious thing. Otherwise, 299 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: it was a household that looked fairly typical, despite the 300 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: roiling emotions underneath, and the morning of August fourth wasn't 301 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: that much different than any other morning. The elder Borden's 302 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: rose early, They breakfast around seven. There was a housemaid 303 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: named Bridget Sullivan, who was an Irish immigrant who worked 304 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: for the family. Emma was out of town visiting friends 305 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: in fair Haven, and Lizzie Borden, as she often did, 306 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: rose later and avoided her father in step other in 307 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: the morning. And we know that John Morse, who was visiting, 308 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 2: spoke with his brother in law and Abby Bordon in 309 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: the morning and then went out to visit other relatives 310 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 2: around nine. 311 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: Okay, so then what happens next. Now Lizzie is awake 312 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: and her parents are awake, and they're in the same household, 313 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: and nobody else is there. John's gone, is Bridget there? 314 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: The housekeeper, Bridget. 315 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: Sullivan is there. Around nine ish, Abby Borton tells her 316 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: that she needs to wash all of the windows inside 317 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: and outside, and she goes outside to wash the windows, 318 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: and fortunately for her, has spotted doing so, which gives 319 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: her an alibi which she will need because Abbie Borton 320 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 2: is killed at nine point thirty in the upstairs guest room. 321 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 2: She's felled by nineteen blows from a hatchet or some 322 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: other kind of sharp implement, and she lies dead for 323 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: a while. Andrew Bordon had gone out in the morning 324 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: to tend to his business. He came back around ten 325 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: forty five and then, after speaking with Lizzie and Bridget, 326 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 2: went into the sitting room where he lay down for 327 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 2: a little nap, and he was killed by ten blows 328 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: apparently while he was sleeping, probably sometime within that hour, 329 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 2: between ten forty five and eleven forty five. 330 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: In Bridget's outside, still working on these windows. While these 331 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: two things are happening, Bridget. 332 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 2: Was outside for Abby's death. She is upstairs taking a 333 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: little bit of a snooze. Everyone in the family had 334 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 2: had what in Fall River was known as the summer complaint, 335 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: basically some gastrowing and intestinal distress, probably caused by leftover fish, 336 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: but it's hard to say. And she was sort of 337 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 2: recovering from that. Lizzie, by contrast, gave kind of shifting 338 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 2: accounts of where she was during the time. She said 339 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 2: that she was downstairs in the dining room irony the 340 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 2: handkerchiefs when her stepmother was killed. This was a task 341 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: that was left undone which was considered significant. And then 342 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: at the time that her father was murdered, she was outside. 343 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 2: She'd stopped in the backyard to pick some pairs, and 344 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: then she'd gone into the barn to look for At 345 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: one point she says sinker and another point she says 346 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 2: some iron to fix a screen. She's sort of dithering 347 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: in the upstairs barn loft at the relevant time. 348 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: So the guest room is on what floor where Abby 349 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: was killed. 350 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: The guest room is on the second floor. So okay, 351 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 2: if you can imagine, this is a basically a converted 352 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 2: duplex with one apartment on the first floor and one 353 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: apartment on the second. So what mister Borden does is 354 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 2: turned into a single family house, and that means that 355 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 2: they're no hallways. So there's stairs that go up to 356 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: the bedrooms, and off the stairs immediately opposite the landing 357 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 2: is the guest room, and then to the right of 358 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: that are two bedrooms that open onto each other, one 359 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: for Lizzie and one for Emma. Beyond that is the parents' bedroom, 360 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: but that door is not only kept locked, but also 361 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: blocked by furniture. So that means that if one were 362 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: to go to the parents' bedroom from the front, one 363 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 2: would have to walk all the way through the house, 364 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: through the sitting room, through the dining room, into the kitchen, 365 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: and then up the backstairs. So it's not that surprising 366 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: that mister Bordon didn't notice that his wife had been killed, 367 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 2: because he would have no reason to go up to 368 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 2: that guest room. But it is significant that Lizzie Borden 369 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: was descending the stairs when her father returned from town 370 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 2: that morning. She came down the stairs that were directly 371 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 2: opposite where her stepmother's body lay. And there's a dispute 372 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 2: about whether or not that that would have been visible, 373 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 2: or whether one would have ordinarily looked into that open 374 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: guest room to look for a body. 375 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: Right or not. Was it Bridget who saw her on 376 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: the stairs? 377 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Bridget sees her descending the stairs. And there's also 378 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: these really odd moments that are very difficult not to 379 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: read a lot into right. So the front door had 380 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: been bolted, which many people view as significant, and so 381 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: Bridget is sort of struggling to let in Andrew Barden 382 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: from the front door because he can't just get in 383 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 2: with his key, and she apparently swears, and Lindsey Bourdon laughs, 384 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 2: But she's laughing at the moment that she's essentially opposite 385 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: her stepmother's body and is descending those stairs, So put 386 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: me a coincidence. If she didn't know her stepmother was there, 387 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: then the fact that she's laughing at the housemaid swearing 388 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 2: it doesn't mean anything, but it's hard not to invest 389 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 2: in with some kind of sinister import. 390 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: If we just remove all ideas that Lizzie Borden did 391 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: this is her story all plausible, where she was, all 392 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: of her movements. Is it possible that she didn't do 393 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: it based on what she said the places she was. 394 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: Yes, her story puts her in the places where she 395 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 2: could have not heard the murders or encounter the murderer. Okay, 396 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: so in that sense it is possible. It's hard to 397 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 2: imagine that someone from the outside managed to get in 398 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: via the side door, which is the only door in 399 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: the house that was unlocked, and hide in that house 400 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,479 Speaker 2: for that length of time, killing first missus Burton, then 401 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 2: mister Borton, and then avoiding the two other women who 402 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 2: were in and out of the house, and also choosing 403 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 2: not to kill them. 404 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: And was anything taken. I mean, what would the motive 405 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 1: have been for this mystery person. 406 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 2: The only thing that really would make sense is just 407 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 2: an insane intruder who. 408 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: Are usually not great at covering their tracks. The insane 409 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: intruder theory, right. 410 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: And insane intruder who managed to leave the house. As 411 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 2: one early witness said in apple Pie Order, you know, 412 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 2: aside from the mayhem on the sitting room sofa and 413 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: the upstairs guests room, so there's not a lot of 414 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 2: tracking of blood through the front hall or from one 415 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 2: room to another. With the exception of the immediate scenes 416 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 2: of the crime, the house itself looks quite neat. 417 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: Is there anything in your mind that says maybe there 418 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: is another person or maybe Bridget disappeared long enough to 419 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: do this. Do you have any doubts? 420 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with having it officially unsolved. 421 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: Maybe it is the legal training and she was acquitted, 422 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: and also it's just it is still difficult to imagine 423 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: that she could have done it and then cleaned up 424 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: so effectively. There are lots of explanations for that that 425 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: really don't come into the trial. There is this piale 426 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 2: of bloody cloths in the basement that are assumed to 427 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 2: be menstrual rags, and that's the explanation that's given, and 428 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: essentially the defense and the prosecution both agree, like, we're 429 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: just not going to talk about this, except that the 430 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: defense does use it to explain anything that seems off 431 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: about Lizzie Bourn, and they say, well, you know, she 432 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 2: had her monthly illness and women's minds are all disturbed 433 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: at that time, so it's sort of handy and that 434 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: would have afforded a way for her to clean up. 435 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 2: There's also a dress that she burned the weekend after 436 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 2: the murders. She's essentially saved by her sister, who says 437 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 2: that she's the one who told her to burn this old, 438 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: paint stained dress, and they were able to provide evidence 439 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 2: from the painter and the seamstress that it had in 440 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: fact been staying with paint, but of course it could 441 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 2: have been staying with some other things too. Yeah, he 442 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: also know some things that the jury never heard, you know, 443 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 2: namely that Lizzie Borden was alleged to have tried to 444 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 2: buy prussic acid before the murders. That shows a certain 445 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: amount of intent, and it would have really punctured the 446 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 2: very effective defense strategy of trying to suggest that she's 447 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 2: just this innocent bystander who has just had the misfortune 448 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 2: of being home at the wrong time. And home, of course, 449 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 2: is where she was supposed to be because she was 450 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 2: someone who ticks all the boxes of upper middle class womanhood. 451 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: She's an unmarried daughter, engaged in good works, who lives 452 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: at home. You can't really expect her to account for 453 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: her time. 454 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: Well, let's go backwards a little bit. So Andrews did 455 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: Abby's did Bridget's laying down with the summer complaint? And 456 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: you've got Lizzie Borden floating around. Now she's in the barn. 457 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: Is that right? When her father was killed? 458 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 2: Right? She goes back from the barn, discovers her father dead. 459 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 2: She summons Bridget. Bridget, who, by the way, everyone except 460 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 2: missus Bordon in the household called Maggie because Maggie was 461 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 2: the name of their prior housemaid terrible. So she sends 462 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: a Bridget to find the doctor, and the family doctor 463 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 2: lives across the street, he's not at home, and then 464 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: she sends her to find Alice Russell, who's a family 465 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 2: friend who had lived next door. And while she's waiting 466 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 2: for Bridget Sullivan to return, she's standing inside the screen 467 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 2: door on the side and she's spotted by her nosy neighbor, 468 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: Missus Churchill, and Missus Churchill asks her what's wrong. Lizzie 469 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 2: Bordon tells her that her father's been killed, and Missus 470 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: Churchill hurries over and that after that many people arrive. 471 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 2: One of the things that I think is really striking 472 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 2: to those of us who are used to consuming our 473 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: pride through television shows is that just the number of 474 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: people who are wandering through the house after the murders 475 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 2: were discovered is pretty shocking. 476 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: Contaminating the crime scene. 477 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 2: Right, A lot of the primary sources were things like 478 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: diaries or letters from locals who just happened to be 479 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: the neighborhood, or who knew mister Bordon and so came 480 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: by to see what was going on. So it's not 481 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 2: exactly you know, CSI Fall River. 482 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, they contaminated everything. I'm sure, where's the jump to 483 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: then suspecting Lizzy. 484 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 2: So first they do what you would expect, which is 485 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: they try to round up the usual suspects who were 486 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: the mostly immigrants. There's someone who's Portuguese who seems to 487 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: be trying to deposit a little bit too much money. 488 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 2: There are other people who are suspicious for various reasons. 489 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 2: But the police can tell pretty quickly that it would 490 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: have been hard for someone to come in from the outside, 491 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 2: and although they do diligently look for someone who might 492 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 2: have met the requirements, it does seem like it would 493 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: have needed to be someone who was in the house 494 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: that morning. And the first person that look at is 495 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 2: John Morris, the brother in law of Andrew Boorden, and 496 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 2: he fortuitously has this alibi that's out of Agatha Christine. 497 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 2: He was riding on a streetcar and he said he 498 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: was writing with six priests, and the streetcar conductor doesn't 499 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: remember him, but doesn't remember the priests, and so that's 500 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: sort of considered good enough. And there is his arrival 501 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 2: time at these other people's house that over on the 502 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 2: other part of town, and so that seems to give 503 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: him the alibi for at least Abbey's murder, and it 504 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,719 Speaker 2: seems like whoever killed one killed the other. And then 505 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: there's the question of Bridget Sullivan, you know, who could 506 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 2: have been in serious trouble because although it didn't seem 507 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 2: like a murder that would have been committed by a woman, 508 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 2: immigrant women didn't quite qualify as women as understood by 509 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 2: that differentiation. Sure, so that someone like Bridges Sullivan would 510 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 2: have been expected to chop wood and do other physical 511 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: labor that would have made it at least theoretically possible. 512 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 2: But she saved because she spotted cleaning the outside windows 513 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: at the time of Abbey's murder, and Lizzy seems to 514 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: give her effectively an alibi for the rest of the time. 515 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: Her timeline makes it almost impossible for Bridget to have 516 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 2: done it, so in that sense, Lizzie helps her out, 517 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: and so that that really just leaves Lizzie Borden and 518 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 2: her story is contradictory. It shifts. She's the only person 519 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 2: who seems to have opportunity to have committed both murders, 520 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 2: and she's also the person known to have hated her stepmother. Yeah, 521 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 2: there is no one else, oh dislike Abby Boardon enough 522 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 2: to kill her. 523 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: She really shot her mouth off that much about Abby 524 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: Borden to people. 525 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you think about what the code is, 526 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 2: the code is you don't blab about that kind of stuff. 527 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 2: And so it was enough. It was enough that it 528 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: was known, and Abby's relatives were not shy about talking 529 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: about the enmity in the household. In fact, Lizzie Borden 530 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 2: would apparently cut them, and I mean that in the 531 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 2: social sense in the street. And that was also given 532 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: as evidence of the kind of haughty personality that she 533 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 2: might have. Ways in which she doesn't you to feminine norms, 534 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: are ways of which she becomes a possible suspect. 535 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: Well, what are those ways other than not being married 536 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: and having children at the age of thirty two, What 537 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: else did she do that was so outside the norm 538 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: for that society. 539 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: Well, it's more of a question of the ingratitude. It 540 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 2: is too much to consider that she might have really 541 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 2: had a desire for financial independence. But it does seem 542 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 2: clear that she thought she was entitled to more than 543 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: she was getting, and she thought she was entitled to 544 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 2: criticize her father's choices in terms of his investments, and 545 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: that was considered a bit unacceptable. 546 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: It just seems so interesting that just seems so out 547 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: of the blue. The whole thing seems out of the blue, 548 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: doesn't it to you? I mean, just what happened. 549 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: Again, if we're assuming that this is the story, that 550 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: this is the story of just the suffocating tension that 551 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: builds up and builds up, and there's this fear of 552 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 2: being cut out of a will or something. I mean again, 553 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 2: I mean this speculation, we don't know what actually happened. 554 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: Could have been an argument, right. 555 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: It still seems I think you'd have to say likely disproportionate. 556 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: I think that that's just one of the reasons that 557 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 2: the case endures. If it had been a poisoning, I 558 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: don't know that we would still really be talking about. 559 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 2: But it's that combination of the grayness of the existence, 560 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 2: the droptness of it, the stakes in some sense seems 561 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: so small, and then the shocking nature of the violence 562 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: that it apparently provoked not a surprise that people want 563 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: a better psychological motive, and that the prosecution itself really 564 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 2: was sort of hoping to find some insanity. That would 565 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: have been, however, upsetting. At least that would have been 566 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 2: an explanation that people could have. 567 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: Understood shorthand the trial to a certain extent. Of course, 568 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: the most interesting part of it is just the social 569 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: commentary of all of this all male jury, right right. 570 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 2: It's also a jury that by design has only one 571 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: Irish Catholic person on it, because that's something that the 572 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 2: defense is quite keen to avoid. There's a very clear 573 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: division in the town between the protest than the leader, 574 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: or even the Protestant establishment, even the people who weren't elite, 575 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: and the Irish Catholic residents, many of whom were mill workers. 576 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: So the idea is that these folks would not be 577 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: as sympathetic to her obviously if they were sitting on 578 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: the jewelry then, right, if. 579 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 2: It had been a mill worker, that that person would 580 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 2: have been marched off to jail very quickly, and instead 581 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: she's treated quite gingerly. And so for that segment of society, 582 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: it just seems like an example of a rich people 583 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 2: getting away with well, in this case, murder. 584 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: It's a very old story in this country especially. Okay, 585 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: what is the defense saying happened if Lizzie is not 586 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: the one who did it. 587 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: The defense makes it clear that it's not their job 588 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 2: to unravel the mystery that all they need to do 589 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 2: is show that there's doubt, that there's a reasonable doubt 590 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: to the story, and so they harp on the fact 591 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: that there is no blood seen on Lizzie Boardon, despite 592 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 2: the fact that there are many people around shortly after 593 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 2: the murders, and that she was also seen between the 594 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 2: two murderers by both Andrew Borden and Bridget Sullivan, which 595 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: would have meant that she'd have to clean up twice, 596 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 2: and no one in the household, no one went outside 597 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 2: of the household saw any kind of blood, and given 598 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: the nature of the murders, that's something that they say 599 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: strongly points towards her innocence. 600 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: Can you agree with that? You think it seems too 601 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: much for her to have cleaned up twice like that. 602 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 2: I think it's a place where there is some doubt. 603 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 2: I think it's possible because she did have control over 604 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: the timing. There's the burnt dress, there are the bloody 605 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: rags in the basement that are supposed to be the 606 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: menstrual clause. So there are ways in which she could 607 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: have protected herself and thus not appeared in any kind 608 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 2: of disarray. There are a lot of disputes in the case, 609 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 2: and one of them is whether the dress she gave 610 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: the police was really the dress that she was wearing 611 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 2: on the morning of the murders, or whether, in fact, 612 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: it was the dress that ended up being burned, and 613 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 2: that would make a difference as to whether or not 614 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 2: it was possible that she did this. The other thing 615 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: the defense does pretty cleverly is that they point out 616 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: every strange person seen in the vicinity, all the ways 617 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: in which mister Borden, who is known to have walked 618 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: from his rental properties in the town back home, all 619 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 2: the ways in which their gaps in his warning. So 620 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 2: in other words, there were times that he wasn't seen. 621 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 2: And this just suggests that you just can't know, right 622 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: someone might have come in, And do you really want 623 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: to send somebody to the gallows when it's possible that 624 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 2: somebody else did it. 625 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: Is there a chance that Bridget might have been involved 626 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: in any way? 627 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 2: Personally? I don't think so, because she wanted out as 628 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 2: quickly as possible, She did not want to go back 629 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: to that house, and so it just doesn't seem very 630 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 2: likely to me. 631 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: And he's wondered if there was a payoff, right, And there. 632 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 2: Are people who argue that there was because she does 633 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 2: dress better afterwards, and she's careful to make her story 634 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 2: sound a little bit better at the trial than maybe before. 635 00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: Though she seems like she has a certain amount of 636 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 2: fun for both Lizzie Barton and Abby. I think the 637 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 2: best in the strongest argument in Lizzie Borton's defense is 638 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 2: the fact that she just seems like such an unlikely murderer. 639 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: Right. 640 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: The Iroscopic paper calls her this sphinx of coolness, and 641 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 2: that's not a compliment. But I mean, for the most part, 642 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 2: that kind of bearing is viewed as the sign of innocence, 643 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 2: that she's someone who is just bearing up under incredibly 644 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 2: difficult circumstances, and that is the sign of American ladylike. 645 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: Wrint, which also could be interpreted as psychopathy perhaps or 646 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: something else. Right. 647 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 2: I mean, it's very tempting to look back at that 648 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 2: and then to think like, oh. 649 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: Boy, you got it wrong, buddy, Right, Well do we 650 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: do that now? Are there's still people that we look at, 651 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: not even just women but people in general who go 652 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: on trial. 653 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that demeanor seems to count for a 654 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: huge amount. I think that that's one of the things 655 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: that's really stayed with me from working on his story 656 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 2: is that it's not simply that in the late nineteenth 657 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 2: century women weren't thought capable of this kind of brutality. 658 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: But there's so much about Lizzie Borden, her church, were 659 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 2: her otherwise kind of bun all existence that just seems 660 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 2: so inconsistent with the kind of murderous violence. She's someone 661 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 2: who was sitting there in the courtroom every day, perfectly 662 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: turned out. She has a little special curl she works on. 663 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: A hair curl. Is that what it is? 664 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: Uh huh? And you just think, can you really picture 665 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 2: her taking a hatchet? I'm much more sympathetic to the jury, 666 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 2: I think than I might have been at the start 667 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: of this. 668 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: I think I'm jaded because I honestly this is the truth. 669 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: I can picture anybody doing something terrible. I think there 670 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: are times in your life that you are capable of 671 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: doing something terrible. We don't know. Maybe she got in 672 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: an argument with Abby. We don't know what Abby would 673 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: have said. Who knows what happened. Maybe John attacked her 674 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: and her parents didn't defend her. There's just so much 675 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: unknown about this case, which is I'm sure maddening to 676 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: you about it too. 677 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 2: Right, I think that's right too. You know what I 678 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 2: was saying about her seeming so implausible as sort of 679 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 2: lady sitting in the courtroom, right, is that that's true 680 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 2: of everyone? Nobody when they're dressed up in court seems 681 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 2: like they could be a person who does something terrible, 682 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 2: but who we are at our worst moments might look 683 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 2: rather different. 684 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: So tell me the ultimate outcome, even though I'm sure 685 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: every single person who's listening to this knows the outcome. 686 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: There is an all male jury. They look at her 687 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: prim and proper as a middle to upper class woman 688 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: of society, and they vote right. 689 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 2: So, after this, for what was the time an unusually 690 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 2: long trial, very involved, the jury is unanimous on the 691 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 2: first ballot, and they actually just sit in the jury 692 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 2: room for a while so that they appear reasonably delivered it, 693 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 2: and they find Lizzie Bordon not guilty, And they themselves 694 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 2: then head out of the courtroom and go to a 695 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: bar where they have a drink because they've been suffering 696 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 2: under enforced temperance during the trial, And they have a 697 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 2: picture taken of themselves and they present it to Lizzie Bordon. 698 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 2: I think if you put those things together, that you'd 699 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 2: say that this isn't really a case of reasonable doubt 700 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: for them. This is a case where they were absolutely 701 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 2: certain that she was not the murderer, or at least 702 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 2: they were not prepared to consider the possibility that she 703 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 2: was the killer. 704 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: And ultimately she and her sister move uphill, right, and 705 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 1: they ended up getting a house on the hill. 706 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, they moved to what you might call a McMansion 707 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 2: at the sort of highest point of the hill district, 708 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 2: and I keep the old house, which they rent out 709 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: because they are Andrew Borden's daughter, so they know the 710 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 2: importance of a good commercial earner. But in a sense, right, 711 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 2: she gets the life that she wanted, but she's frozen 712 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 2: out of her church circle pretty quickly. That the pews 713 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 2: around her are empty, and it becomes clear that the 714 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 2: people who back her during the trial aren't going to 715 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 2: necessarily want to socialize with her. 716 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: Even though she was acquitted. 717 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's something a little bit tribal about it. 718 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 2: It's like an anthropological sense or you know, judgment. In 719 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 2: other words, that the people who roughly speaking, were her 720 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 2: kind of people back her against outsiders during the trial, 721 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 2: because it would have reflected really badly on everyone, right, 722 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 2: and then they freeze her out and basically ostracize her afterwards. 723 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 2: It's a little bit simplistic, but that's sort of what happens. 724 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 2: And there's also the problem that one encounters in other 725 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 2: famous acquittals, which is that in the emotion of the moment, 726 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 2: people maybe are relieved that the person is not found guilty, 727 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 2: But then again, when time passes, you think, well, if 728 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 2: that person didn't do it, then who did? And there's 729 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 2: never anybody who's considered to be a real suspect. 730 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: After Lizzie board how does her income. 731 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 2: She continues to live with her sister until nineteen oh five, 732 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 2: so that's twelve years after the acquittal. When the sisters 733 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 2: have a dispute. We don't know what it's about. Their 734 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: speculation that it could have been about Lizzie Borden becoming 735 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: a little bit too chummy with a theatrical troupe, including 736 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 2: a particular actress. It could have been about a handsome coachman. 737 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 2: They are all sorts of speculation. We do know that 738 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 2: she consulted her spiritual advisor about events transpiring at the house, 739 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 2: and that she wasn't happy about it, and she moved 740 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 2: out and then never spoke to her sister again. Lizzie 741 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 2: Borden continued to live in the same house, drove around 742 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 2: a packer that was specially outfitted with a raised seat 743 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 2: for her dogs. She did a little bit of traveling 744 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 2: within the United States, and a friend in her household 745 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 2: staff and the children of her household staff sending them 746 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 2: special birthday readings signed Auntie Borden, really sacarine pictures on 747 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 2: the postcards, but often with a special delivery so that 748 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 2: it would be a kind of treat for the kids. Know, 749 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 2: nothing really to suggest that she was especially unhappy. She 750 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: sort of had the life that she wanted. That's one 751 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 2: of the things that I think is very striking about 752 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 2: the end of the story. That she could have chosen 753 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 2: to live elsewhere with the amount of money she had. 754 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 2: I mean, she could have been, if not perhaps totally anonymous, 755 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 2: at least not a figure of such notoriety. But you know, 756 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 2: she chose to remain in Fall River, and that sort 757 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,879 Speaker 2: of speaks to, I think the provincialism that she sort 758 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 2: of couldn't imagine being anywhere else. But also that had, 759 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 2: after all been the height of her ambition. 760 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked, Words Sierra Crane Murdoch 761 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: on the Native American woman who solved a murder on 762 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: her reservation. 763 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 3: This was one of the questions that really drove me 764 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 3: was why could she become so obsessed with searching for 765 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 3: a stranger. This story is an inversion of the classic 766 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 3: white savior narrative. She is a Native woman who is 767 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 3: searching for this young white man, and I think that's 768 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 3: a very perplexing narrative direction for a lot of people. 769 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 2: It's like, why why was she care? 770 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for 771 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,760 Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All That Is Wicked 772 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: is based on our first season of Tenfold War Wicked. 773 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer 774 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,959 Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book 775 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly 776 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: right Tenfold War Media production. The producer is Alexis Mrosi. 777 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: This episode was mixed and sound designed by Andrew Epen. 778 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is Our composer. Nick Toga did the artwork. 779 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: Ilsabrink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, 780 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff, and Danielle Kramer follow Wicked Words on Instagram 781 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at 782 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: tenfold more. And if you know of a historical crime 783 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in 784 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: your family, email us at info at tenfoldwar wicked dot com. 785 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for 786 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: Wicked Words