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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for a classic episode

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Speaker 1: of the show. This is called The Dog with the

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Speaker 1: Burning Brand. This was originally published on August thirty one.

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Speaker 1: And Uh, I mean, what else is there to say

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Speaker 1: about a dog with a burning brand? I think you

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Speaker 1: just have to hear it, right, Yeah, it's our best

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Speaker 1: episode about dogs and paintings that look like they're smoking dope.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: today we got an art question to start off with. Uh,

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Speaker 1: have you out there? Have you ever been wandering through

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Speaker 1: a museum and looking at old paintings, especially maybe paintings

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Speaker 1: from the medieval Europe or from the Renaissance period, and

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Speaker 1: you happen to come across a dog holding in its

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Speaker 1: mouth maybe what looks like a big, old rolled up

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Speaker 1: newspaper that's on fire, or, as as many people on

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Speaker 1: the Internet have characterized it, smoking a joint or smoking

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Speaker 1: a hand rolled cigarette. You know, I have to admit

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Speaker 1: that I had I had never noticed this before, and

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like I've I've walked through a number

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Speaker 1: of really good art museums. I I've enjoyed in the

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Speaker 1: past diving into sort of detail oriented topics that involve paintings,

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Speaker 1: and yet I have never witnessed the joint smoking dog

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Speaker 1: or the firebrand bearing dog before until it was brought

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Speaker 1: to my attention by an an art net dot com

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Speaker 1: blog post or article that we were talking about. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you came across the but you

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Speaker 1: were the one who sent it to me. And this

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Speaker 1: was a blog post by an American art critic named

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Speaker 1: Ben Davis. Uh. That's very funny, and it is addressing

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Speaker 1: the question of why are there so many medieval and

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Speaker 1: Renaissance paintings that depict a do what looks like a

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Speaker 1: dog smoking a joint. That is the way the author

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Speaker 1: phrases it. And it's it's quite amusing because it includes

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Speaker 1: images examples of this and when you start looking at them, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it looks like these dogs that they're doing something they're

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Speaker 1: either they're holding some sort of a joint like object

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Speaker 1: or at the very least, they have fire. They have

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Speaker 1: fire in a way that seems totally out of keeping

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Speaker 1: with what dogs actually want and do in reality. So

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Speaker 1: a few examples. There is one painting from the sixteen

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Speaker 1: sixties by an artist named Jande Pereha that features a

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Speaker 1: very cute dog laid out on the ground with stubby

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Speaker 1: little four legs tucked up under his pawnchy chest, and

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Speaker 1: there is a bouquet of white flowers tossed to the

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Speaker 1: round in front of him, and then between his jaws,

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Speaker 1: he is clutching a foot long white cylinder that is

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Speaker 1: on fire on the end opposite of his mouth. And yes,

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Speaker 1: it does look like some kind of giant cigarette or

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Speaker 1: something of that kind, but it could also be maybe

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Speaker 1: a candle. I don't know. It's just a white thing

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Speaker 1: that's on fire. Yeah, And the dog has a very

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Speaker 1: relaxed vibe doing this, and it's just kind of a chalky,

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Speaker 1: relaxed dog. It doesn't look like like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: burn your city down or anything like that. He's just

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Speaker 1: hanging out. This is a smooth chalk. All these that

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Speaker 1: I'm mentioning are featured in that that article by Ben Davis,

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Speaker 1: by the way. But so there's another painting from the

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Speaker 1: sixteen eighties by Claudio Coello, and it is a portrait

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Speaker 1: of a certain religious figure, but excluding the central figure

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Speaker 1: for a second. In the bottom left of the frame,

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Speaker 1: there's a black and white dog with a kind of

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Speaker 1: skunk coloration pattern, and he is biting what looks like

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Speaker 1: a fence post that's on fire, and you can see

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Speaker 1: his little under fang's in the lower canins holding fast

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Speaker 1: to that burning steak. Yeah, now this one looks a

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Speaker 1: little more fierce, a little more mischievous even uh. There

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Speaker 1: he's also next to a spherical object. I forget what

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Speaker 1: you call these um in religious iconography of Catholicism, but

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Speaker 1: it reminds me of a globe, and so I get

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Speaker 1: kind of this feeling of the dog threatening to torch

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Speaker 1: the earth. Well, and that also seems to be a theme,

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Speaker 1: because here's yet another one that was in Davis's post.

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Speaker 1: So this is by jose guild Castro from eighteen seventeens.

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Speaker 1: This is a later painting, but once again there is

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Speaker 1: a person at the center of this painting, but in

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Speaker 1: the lower right corner, there is a bizarre scene. There's

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Speaker 1: this big old blue sphere like a big azure beach ball,

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Speaker 1: and then on top of the ball there is a dog.

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Speaker 1: Except this dog looks ferocious. He is showing all his

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Speaker 1: sharp little teeth and he's digging into the ball with

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Speaker 1: his claws, and once again he's holding a burning stick

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Speaker 1: in his mouth, except this time he's holding the stick

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Speaker 1: so that the business end, the end that's on fire,

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Speaker 1: is stabbing into the blue ball like he's trying to

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Speaker 1: burn a hole in it. So what's up here? Well,

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Speaker 1: Davis explains, actually, uh, this is religious iconography. These are

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Speaker 1: animals that mean something. Uh. So I mentioned that in

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Speaker 1: most of these artworks the central subject is a person

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Speaker 1: rather than a dog. And then there's a dog with

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Speaker 1: a with a burning stick or a cigarette or whatever

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Speaker 1: down in the corner. The person in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the painting is almost always one of two people. It

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Speaker 1: is either St. Jayne Santa Juana of of Aza or

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Speaker 1: her son St. Dominic Santo Domingo, who was a very

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Speaker 1: important figure in the history of the Catholic Church lived

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Speaker 1: from the twelfth to the thirteenth century, and he was

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Speaker 1: a Catholic priest who founded the Dominican Order in twelve sixteen.

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Speaker 1: Uh to read from Davis quote, thereby setting the world

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Speaker 1: on fire metaphorically in terms of spreading the faith. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, two Dominican preachers were sometimes called

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Speaker 1: Domini Khans or the dogs of the lords. It's a

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Speaker 1: very good medieval pun for you. But so according to

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Speaker 1: legend St. Dominic's mother St. Jane, was granted a premonition

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Speaker 1: in the form of a vision from God. And in

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Speaker 1: her vision she saw that she was pregnant, but with

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Speaker 1: a dog, and the dog carried a flaming torch in

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Speaker 1: its mouth. And then when she, in the vision, gave

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Speaker 1: birth to the dog, it was running around. It darted

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Speaker 1: all over the place with the torch and set fire

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Speaker 1: to everything. And this was interpreted to me and that

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Speaker 1: her son would metaphorically set the world on fire, meaning

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Speaker 1: he would preach a message that would reach the ends

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Speaker 1: of the earth. And so by establishing the Dominican Order,

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Speaker 1: I think you know, they were largely well. They had

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Speaker 1: a number of concerns, but one of them was like

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Speaker 1: preaching against heresies of the Middle Ages. So if you're

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Speaker 1: a heretic, you need to watch out for the dog

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Speaker 1: with the flaming brand because it is coming to set

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Speaker 1: the world on fire. Now, I have to say, in

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Speaker 1: some of these images I totally get this vibe, you know,

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Speaker 1: particularly that one that where he's not he's not actually

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Speaker 1: making contact with the globe like object, but he seems

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Speaker 1: to be threatening to do so. I can see it.

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Speaker 1: This is a vision dog. This is a dog that

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Speaker 1: is bringing prophecy from divine realms. But that first guy

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Speaker 1: that that that that chunky one we were talking about,

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Speaker 1: he I don't know. He He doesn't look like he's

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Speaker 1: wandered out of any vision. He looks like the painter

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Speaker 1: had a much beloved dog in his life and decided, well,

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Speaker 1: if I'm going to put in this dog of prophecy,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna put my dog Schnkers in there. And uh,

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Speaker 1: and that's who I want to paint. You know, this

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Speaker 1: is something I often wonder looking at old paintings and

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Speaker 1: sculptures of religious figures. So if there's a a painting

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Speaker 1: of of John the Baptist where he looks really hunky,

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Speaker 1: is it because this person, you know, the painter was

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Speaker 1: filled with religious fervor for this scene involving John the

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Speaker 1: Baptist and really wanted to depict that or is it

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Speaker 1: because he like had a friend or a model or

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Speaker 1: something that he really wanted to paint And he's like,

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Speaker 1: who can I I'll say this guy is John the Baptist. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And ultimately I think in some cases that is the reality.

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Speaker 1: You have painters who want to paint, say the human

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Speaker 1: form and it are you know, obsessed with the with

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Speaker 1: anatomy and the and how to properly relate that in

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Speaker 1: the painting. But how are you going to do that

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Speaker 1: and get paid? You know? Uh, well this could be

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Speaker 1: this could be the dog version, right, yeah. So this

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Speaker 1: is like you're saying, this is his dog that he

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Speaker 1: loves and he was just wants to paint the dog.

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Speaker 1: He's like, how can I? Oh, I know this is

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Speaker 1: the dog of the vision of St. Jayne. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he's looking right at you. It's a beautiful painting.

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Speaker 1: It's a very lifelike rendering of this dog. Yeah. Wanda

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Speaker 1: parade ha two thumbs up. I love your chunk. Now,

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Speaker 1: all this talk of of holy dogs and uh, you

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Speaker 1: know Catholic tradition, you know this, this is all well

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Speaker 1: and good, but uh, one one question that it certainly arises,

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Speaker 1: is do we find anything like this anywhere else in

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Speaker 1: the world, Because on one hand, like I said, this

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Speaker 1: is not something dogs do, This is not something around yeah,

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Speaker 1: carry fire around it. In fact, I was looking around

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Speaker 1: to find any account of this happening, certainly any like

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Speaker 1: videos of like, oh, here's our dog, he likes to

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Speaker 1: carry a flaming brand around the house, and I found

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Speaker 1: virtually nothing. The closest I came was a video that

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Speaker 1: allegedly is of a dog swooping in to grab a

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Speaker 1: lit firework before it can blast off. Yeah, exactly the

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Speaker 1: same Here I was. I was thinking, is this a

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Speaker 1: natural phenomenon or their observed conditions where a dog will

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Speaker 1: commonly pick up a flaming stick? And I was looking

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Speaker 1: all over the place and found nothing really except I

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Speaker 1: found a couple of instances of people talking about dogs

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Speaker 1: that had specifically been trained to carry a flaming torch

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Speaker 1: or something, but it was just in the context of

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Speaker 1: dogs being trained to do all kinds of tricks like

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Speaker 1: jump through a flaming hoop or anything like that. So

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Speaker 1: I think carrying a flaming torch is something you could

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Speaker 1: train a dog to do in the s that you

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Speaker 1: can train a dog to do just about anything, So

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Speaker 1: it would stand a reason. It would seem possible that

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Speaker 1: maybe this is just a one off. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: certainly if we believe this, uh, this story, that this

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Speaker 1: is a dog of vision and prophecy, you know, just

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Speaker 1: sort of random dream imagery that comes together, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: or some sort of a vision, some sort of hallucination

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Speaker 1: whatever the you know, the the real world. Uh. Situation

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Speaker 1: might be that maybe this is just something that occurs

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Speaker 1: once in human traditions and we're not likely to expect

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Speaker 1: to see it pop up anywhere else. And yet I

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Speaker 1: found one. I found another dog with a with a

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Speaker 1: flaming stick. Uh, And I'm not I'm still not sure

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Speaker 1: exactly what to make of it. How much of it

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Speaker 1: we can sort of chalk up to, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: cultural convergent evolution or if if if, ultimately we can

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Speaker 1: get down to certain realities about dogs and humans, humanities,

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Speaker 1: relationship with the dog. Um. You know, I think maybe

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit of both of those. So you

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Speaker 1: might so wondering where is this Where do we have

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Speaker 1: to go to find this other dog with the flaming brand? Well,

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Speaker 1: we have to travel once more to pre Columbian um Mesoamerica.

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Speaker 1: We have to travel to the Aztec world and and

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Speaker 1: also the Mayan world, and look to the fire carrying

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Speaker 1: dog in these cultures as well. Okay, I'm ready to go.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's start with Aztecs and I'll come

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Speaker 1: back to some of the Mayan examples. But uh, just

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Speaker 1: to refresh the Aztec world. This flourished in the central

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Speaker 1: Mexico from around thirteen hundred to fifteen twenty one. They

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Speaker 1: rose out of obscurity among various indigenous peoples of the

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Speaker 1: region and became a dominant power. Now, civilizations are, of

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Speaker 1: course a human affair, but of course they always entail

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Speaker 1: other species, including domesticated plants and animals. So we've discussed

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Speaker 1: the importance of maize to the Aztecs as well as

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Speaker 1: other crops, but they also had some domesticated animals. The

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Speaker 1: Their domestic animals included turkeys, which I believe we discussed

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Speaker 1: Aztecs and their turkeys in the past. Also bees. I

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Speaker 1: think there are some cases for ducks and geese and

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Speaker 1: maybe quail, but I see that in some sources but

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Speaker 1: on others, So I'm I'm not entirely certain that that

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Speaker 1: is a definite or or maybe even a universal reality

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Speaker 1: of of of Aztecs. Maybe there were certain regions where

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Speaker 1: they may have had some domestic ducks and geese, but

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Speaker 1: for the most part, when you talk about the domesticated

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Speaker 1: animals of the Aztecs, you're talking about the turkey, you're

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Speaker 1: talking about bees, and you're talking about the dog, the old, reliable,

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Speaker 1: the dogs always there, Yes, yeah, and and and I

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Speaker 1: really think it's important to keep in mind through all

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Speaker 1: this that I think that's that seems to be a

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Speaker 1: universal thing. I think that ultimately the way that like

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Speaker 1: the medieval Europeans viewed the dog is largely in keeping

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Speaker 1: with the way Aztecs and Miyan's viewed the dog as well.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna be some differences, uh as well discuss, but

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Speaker 1: I think ultimately there's a lot about the dog being

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Speaker 1: man's best friend in all of this. You know, the

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Speaker 1: dog is the creature that sticks by you. And and

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Speaker 1: maybe ultimately, like that is where we get this idea

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Speaker 1: of the dog carrying the flame, because who else is

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Speaker 1: going to carry the flame for humanity? Is it going

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Speaker 1: to be the cat? Now, So I was reading about

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Speaker 1: all of this in the Use and Significance of Animals

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Speaker 1: in Aztec Rituals by Maria Konvalineri from twenty from two

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Speaker 1: thousand and nine, and she points out a few important

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Speaker 1: things here. First of all, she points out that the

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Speaker 1: Aztecs were relatively poor in domesticated animals compared to various

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Speaker 1: other cultures we might look to. Common people would only

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Speaker 1: eat meat on special occasions. They had no draft animals.

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Speaker 1: The turkey was ultimately their greatest domestic meat source, and

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Speaker 1: their eggs also provided protein. But they also had dogs,

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Speaker 1: and not merely one variety of dogs or just dogs

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Speaker 1: in the generic sense. They had several varieties of dog,

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Speaker 1: and one of these was apparently used almost to exclusively

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Speaker 1: for food. And this was true if the Mayans as well,

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Speaker 1: as Alan Jay Christensen points out in pople Vou The

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Speaker 1: Sacred Book of the Maya, Volume one, the Mayans also

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Speaker 1: depended on the dog, the turkey, and the honey bee.

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Speaker 1: And these dogs were quote small, fat, nearly hairless. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And they didn't bark. But that But here's the important

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Speaker 1: thing to drive home is that they weren't just it

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Speaker 1: wasn't just a food species. They were both food and

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Speaker 1: pet this was a creature that would that was a companion,

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Speaker 1: that was a pet, but then also under certain circumstances,

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Speaker 1: again not every day, but but but when necessary, it

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Speaker 1: was also a food species. Now some of the details

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Speaker 1: of the Aztec dog they were apparently I'm reading three

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Speaker 1: different rough varieties. There's the medium sized furred dog. The

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Speaker 1: it's quintly and this was also a hunting dog. So

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Speaker 1: that's an important thing to keep in mind too, like

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Speaker 1: the dog also has this purpose and cultures around the

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Speaker 1: world where it's helping us acquire food. Then there is

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Speaker 1: the medium sized hairless dog, and this is the showlitz

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Speaker 1: quently and this is um this this would have been

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Speaker 1: a dog that would have been used as one of

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Speaker 1: these these pets slash food dogs. And then there's also

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Speaker 1: a short legged fur dog and this is the clou

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Speaker 1: cheche and I'm reading that this one might have also

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Speaker 1: been a meat dog at times as well. Now, according

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Speaker 1: to UH Confelinary, it seems that the hairless variety was

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Speaker 1: primarily the food dog, at least in some regions, but

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Speaker 1: again only for special occasions. UH And there are Aztec

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Speaker 1: depictions of their wrinkled hairless faces and these are worth

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Speaker 1: looking up like it's it's undeniable, Like this is not

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Speaker 1: a um um, you know, a loupine or type of

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Speaker 1: a dog face. This is not the face of a coyote.

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Speaker 1: Coyotes were of course also around in the wild. No,

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Speaker 1: this is the face of the domestic dog. And I

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Speaker 1: do think we need to be careful, of course, not

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Speaker 1: to equate the consumption of dog meat with cruelty to

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Speaker 1: animals in this context, at least no more than we

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Speaker 1: might equate any traditional historic meat consumption to cruelty. Because

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Speaker 1: as confelinary stresses, these dogs were also pets. Uh certainly

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Speaker 1: with the furred varieties, but even the hairless ones, they

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Speaker 1: would have been well treated, and they fulfilled the role

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Speaker 1: of both pet and food. And there was a religious

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Speaker 1: reason to treat dogs well, be they you know, hunting

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Speaker 1: dog or a dog that would be used for for

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Speaker 1: for food. At some point, dogs were seen as psychopomps

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Speaker 1: by the Aztecs, which is to say, it was the

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Speaker 1: role of the dog to shepherd the human soul across

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Speaker 1: the ninefold stream to reach the center of the underworld.

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Speaker 1: The afterlife of Midland. Interesting. Yeah, and in some accounts

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Speaker 1: you have to be very particular about the color of

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Speaker 1: the dog. I found this interesting. Uh. The idea was

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Speaker 1: that white dogs have just bathed, and therefore they're not

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Speaker 1: going to enter the waters. They're not gonna get you

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Speaker 1: across the ninefold Stream to the center of the afterlif um.

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Speaker 1: Black dogs, on the other hand, they will cross, but

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Speaker 1: they can only carry their own souls. What you need

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Speaker 1: is like a yellow dog. That it's the dog that's

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Speaker 1: gonna get you across the ninefold stream. Uh, that's gonna

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Speaker 1: carry its own soul, but also yours. Interesting now, Confolinari

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Speaker 1: shares a great quote from twentieth century pre Columbian art

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Speaker 1: expert Elizabeth P. Benson on all of this. It kind

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Speaker 1: of sums up and extrapolates on why the dog. Why

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Speaker 1: is the dog the psychopomp uh? Benson wrote, Dogs are

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Speaker 1: appropriate escorts for the dead. They walk with their noses

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Speaker 1: to the ground. They dig in the earth, barry bones

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Speaker 1: and hunt in burrows. They eat carrion and make themselves

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Speaker 1: smell of it. They have night vision. They howl at night.

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Speaker 1: They know what is there in the darkness relating to

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Speaker 1: the earth, the dead, things to sounds and smells that

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Speaker 1: are imperceptible to humans. Dogs have esoteric knowledge and special

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Speaker 1: connections with the underworld. Oh that's a wonderful observation about

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Speaker 1: the the inferred supernatural power of a dog, just because

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Speaker 1: of the different kind of sense realms a dog can occupy.

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Speaker 1: That the dog detects something in the darkness before you do.

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Speaker 1: They hear it before you do. They might be able

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Speaker 1: to see or smell things that you can't see, or

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Speaker 1: smell or certainly smell things you can't smell. So you

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Speaker 1: would you would agree with this as a dog owner,

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, pretty much. Any dog owner, I think, would

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Speaker 1: have the experience of the dog knows something around the

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Speaker 1: house is going on before you do. They know that

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Speaker 1: somebody is approaching the front door before you do, or

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00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 1: you take maybe you go out back in the darkness

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Speaker 1: and in the nighttime, and the dog knows something is

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Speaker 1: there that you don't detect in any way, and maybe

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Speaker 1: it's a possum on top of the fence or something

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Speaker 1: um but but yeah, yeah, the the dog is aware

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Speaker 1: of things before you're aware of them, and sometimes things

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Speaker 1: that you never become aware of. Maybe it um it

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Speaker 1: it's attention perks up and it barks at something in

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Speaker 1: the darkness that comes and goes, and then it's gone

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Speaker 1: and you never see what it is that could given

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Speaker 1: the right mindset, leads someone to believe that the dog

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Speaker 1: is maybe interacting with spirits or interacting with with with

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Speaker 1: something beyond the human sense realm. Yeah. Yeah, And of course,

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Speaker 1: even if you're not going to the spiritual uh extreme

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Speaker 1: of that interpretation, undoubtedly the dog is a protector. The

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Speaker 1: dog is raising an alarm. Even if it can't bark,

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Speaker 1: it'll raise some sort of an alarm that's something is

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Speaker 1: perhaps there that shouldn't be. Uh. It's gonna play a

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Speaker 1: role in protecting, uh, the domicile, perhaps also helping to

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Speaker 1: protect the crops to some degree. Yeah, So that's important

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00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 1: to keep in mind here as well. But there's another

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Speaker 1: thing mentioned in Benson's quote that is also interesting about

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Speaker 1: the association with with say death and carrion. I mean,

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Speaker 1: so as as beautiful and sweet and pure as as

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Speaker 1: dogs are, at least in my mind, they're also they're

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Speaker 1: interested in disgusting dead things that humans that will make

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00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 1: the human senses revolt and that will make you want

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00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,399
Speaker 1: to stay away. But the dog wants to approach. So

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00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,199
Speaker 1: it makes sense. This is this is a world they

368
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 1: understand we may be repelled by and therefore, who's going

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Speaker 1: to guide you through the realms of death? You're good,

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Speaker 1: old dog. Now. One of the issues here is that

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Speaker 1: the dog, if this dog is gonna guide you through

372
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Speaker 1: the afterlife, it also needs to cross over with you

373
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Speaker 1: as well. It needs to be buried with you. And

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Speaker 1: thus dogs were also used in ritual sacrifice by the Aztecs.

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Speaker 1: But where does fire come into all this, you're probably wondering.

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Speaker 1: So far this dog has not been running around with fire. Well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna We're gonna get to that here. Um, those

378
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Speaker 1: certainly the idea of the dog guiding you through a

379
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 1: dark underworld that that already leans itself to interpretations of

380
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Speaker 1: a dog carrying some sort of fire, a dog lighting

381
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 1: the way and being your guide through the darkness. So

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00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 1: the next fact worth mentioning in all this current concerns

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Speaker 1: the Aztec god Scholatte, described guy by Confallinari as skeletal,

384
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Speaker 1: dog faced or dog bodied. Now, Sholatl is the twin

385
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Speaker 1: of quetzal Codal, also described as the god of monsters

386
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Speaker 1: and the patron deity of twins, both human twins and

387
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 1: also just sort of general twinning in nature anytime something

388
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 1: seems to have a dual existence or nature, and the

389
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: connection here does seem to be to the domestic dog too.

390
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 1: When we're talking about this this god being dog faced

391
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 1: or dog bodied, it's not the coyotes face. It's a

392
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 1: you know, which was a wild scavenger and is also

393
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 1: sometimes associated with the god of the smoking mirror uh

394
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 1: ts catl Polca. Depictions of Scholatto, including one discovered during

395
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 1: the construction of the Mexico City subway system, includes details

396
00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,199
Speaker 1: clearly associated with the hairless, wrinkle faced domestic dog. So

397
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 1: to be clear, food pet dog reflected in the divine

398
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 1: image here, not a wild dog or even a hunting dog.

399
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 1: This is uh this is the the hairless, wrinkly dog

400
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: that is the face or even the body of the divine.

401
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 1: So you've got a picture here of this, this carving

402
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: of the dog face. Yeah, and it is unmistakably doggy

403
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: because you see the wrinkles in the skin, and you

404
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: see the kind of relatively stubby snout compared to what

405
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 1: you'd see with like a wolf for a coyote. Yeah, yeah,

406
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,199
Speaker 1: absolutely so. So there doesn't seem to be any mystery

407
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: here concerning this god's connection to the domestic dog. So

408
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: to the Aztecs, dogs were important. They were valued for

409
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: their companionship, their loyalty, their food value, their protective nature

410
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: to both the family and the crops. They were important

411
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 1: enough to be the likeness of a major deity, a

412
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: god of twins and monsters, but also a god of

413
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,360
Speaker 1: lightning and fire. So this raises the question, right, why

414
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: is the dog also associated with fire and Aztec traditions. Well,

415
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: here we come at last yet to the idea of

416
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Speaker 1: the Aztec dog as firebringer. Herman Buyer explored this in

417
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 1: the Symbolic Meaning of the Dog in Ancient Mexico, published

418
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: in the in the American Anthropologists back in nine eight.

419
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 1: Now referring back to the different dog varieties again, there's

420
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 1: that medium sized furred dog, or it's quintly, but it's

421
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: quintly also just means dog more generally. And then the

422
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: dog also played a role in the Aztec zodiac. So

423
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: the day of this dog it occurs at the end

424
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: and is therefore associated with the god miclant Culti, lord

425
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: of the Realm of the dead, who rules over Micklin

426
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: with his bride. And we see this in my traditions

427
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 1: as well as Buyer points out where the symbol for

428
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: dog is mainly a thorax and a skeleton. A thorax

429
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: yeahora like an insect thorax. Yeah. I was looking at

430
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: examples of it, and UM, I don't know. The comparison

431
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 1: is maybe a little lost on me because I'm just

432
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: not used to looking at these characters. But I mean,

433
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: I take I take the researchers word for it. I mean,

434
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: I guess mammals would have a thorax too, so it

435
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 1: would be like the dog's chest sort of. Now to

436
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: come back to Chilato here, Uh, Buyer writes that Schilato's

437
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: job is also to carry the sun through the underworld

438
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: and is associated with a particular constellation in the night

439
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,239
Speaker 1: sky that was known as the fire Sticks, and so

440
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: the association here, Buyer rights, is that the fire drill

441
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: method of fire production is is linked to the dog

442
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: and to this deity. The constellation here is possibly the

443
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: Belt of Orion. Um. I've seen some some back and

444
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: forth on that, but I think the Belt of Orion

445
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: is the popular UH interpretation of discussions of this particular constellation.

446
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 1: And he's also associated with the Polades star cluster and

447
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: the fire drill method of fire production. This would be

448
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: a friction based method for forgetting a fire going right

449
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: for it would involve a setup for rapidly rotating one

450
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: piece of wood on another to generate heat through friction

451
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: that would help spark some kindling. Yeah, we we discussed

452
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: this a bit in our Fire Technology series of invention episodes.

453
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: This would have been a very early way to produce fire.

454
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 1: And you also see Prometheus type characters and other religions

455
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: and traditions that that are closely associated with the fire drill.

456
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: I've seen the Chinese version of this as being referred

457
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: to in translation as the fire driller. So it makes

458
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: sense that the primordial connection with fire production would be

459
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 1: tied in with this technology. Now there's also there also

460
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: does seem to be a connection as well between Scholatl

461
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: and Venus appearing in Then in the Night Sky as

462
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: a morning star. Again, we're getting into this idea that

463
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: that this deity and or the dog carry the fire

464
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: through the underworld, carry the sun through the underworld. And

465
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: so this gets into the idea of like where does

466
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: Venus go? Where does the sun go when it is

467
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: not in the sky. Well, it is of course traveling

468
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: beneath the earth, it is traveling through the underworld. So um,

469
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: in all of this, I have to stress that I'm

470
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: I'm not giving full justice to the complexity and richness

471
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: of Aztec astrology here. Whole books have been written about

472
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: Aztec astrology, uh and and it. But it seems that

473
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: that there are complex astrological associations between dogs and death

474
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: and fire, and that these worked in unison with less

475
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: abstract aspects of the dog's nature and role in society.

476
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: And it's just overall value to humanity. Now in in

477
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: my in traditions, as reflected in the Mind codices, the

478
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 1: dog is also the firebringer. I was reading about this

479
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 1: in The Dragon and the Dog, Two Symbols of Time

480
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: in Non All Religion by Frank J. Newman. Newman writes, quote,

481
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 1: the dog is often depicted in the Maya codices carrying

482
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: a torch, perhaps a reference to the Maya tradition that

483
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: the dog brought fire to mankind, and the head of

484
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: a dog is sometimes part of the compound glyph which

485
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: represents the fire drill. Okay, so, if I'm understanding everything

486
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: I've been looking at here, it sounds as if we

487
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: have a few things going on sort of feeding into

488
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: each other. First of all, astrological associations between dogs and

489
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: fire uh. Secondly mythological connotations of the dog or dog

490
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: headed deities as firebringers. And then connections some mythological and

491
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: some astrological connecting dogs to the dead and to the

492
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: realm of the dead. And on top of that, though,

493
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: I think perhaps some manner of bleed over between control

494
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: of fire as a major factor in human civilization and

495
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: the importance of the domestic dog, which again, in this context,

496
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: would have served pretty much all of the values placed

497
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: on the domestic dog in the modern context you know, companion, guardian, etcetera,

498
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: with the added context of being the their only domestic

499
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: cated mammalian protein source. You know, again, they did not

500
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: have the domesticated cow, with the domesticated pig, all of

501
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: these these other creatures to to help provide the nutrition

502
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: they needed. The dog was the only domestic mammal that

503
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: could fulfill that that need. I've also read that at

504
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: least in some Mesoamerican traditions and accounts, the dog is

505
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: credited with discovering corn, which would would also be a

506
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: huge achievement on par with fire in some regards. Uh. So,

507
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 1: so again we see these multiple connections here that that

508
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: speak to the dog's role in civilization, like the fact

509
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: that humans have mastery over things that enable them to

510
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: to build civilizations and to keep going year after year. Uh,

511
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: and to pass on something to to their children. Uh.

512
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: It's the fire, it's the crops that are key, but

513
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: also the dog. Yeah, this is a fascinating triangle that

514
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: sort of says something about about the human species, of

515
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: the triangle of humans, dogs and fire and uh. And

516
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: so I wanted to transition from here to look at

517
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: a little bit of the scientific evidence and and current

518
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: leading hypotheses about the history of the relationship between humans

519
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: and these two elements of nature and of technology, in fact,

520
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: of fire and of dogs. Um. So, one of the

521
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: things I wanted to start off with here is remembering

522
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: an interesting fact from some of our past episodes. We

523
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: did a couple of episodes about um about the history

524
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: of fire on planet Earth, and and the observation is

525
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: this Earth is sometimes thought of as the water planet,

526
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: which is a good descriptor there's a lot of liquid

527
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: water on our surface. But I think it's also quite

528
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: reasonable to think of Earth as the fire planet. Earth

529
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: is really the only place in the Solar System that

530
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: allows for fire, certainly in significant amounts, because in order

531
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: to burn, fire needs heat, fuel, and oxygen, and there

532
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: are plenty of places in the Solar System where you

533
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: can find lots of heat, but fuel and free oxygen

534
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: are much more scarce. The Earth is absolutely packed with

535
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: these two things. It is packed with fuel in the

536
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: form of concentrated carbon molecules produced by the biosphere, and

537
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: it is packed with free oxygen in the atmosphere, which

538
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: is also produced by the biosphere. So so the conditions

539
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: giving rise to the the potential for free burning fires

540
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: actually are very much a product of Earth's biology, the

541
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: presence of life on Earth. Beyond that, another interesting thing

542
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: that makes Earth the fire planet is that, like humans

543
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: don't have to be there to start fires, Earth's weather

544
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: systems naturally provide the flint that continually strikes natural fires

545
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: in the form of lightning. So Earth is a place

546
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: where where fire is not only possible, but fire occurs.

547
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: Right now, to come back to what we were talking

548
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: about earlier, Yes, Earth has fire, Earth has dogs, but

549
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: you really don't see a lot of crossover between the

550
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: two um. In addition to what I mentioned earlier, mean

551
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: the most I really came across was the idea that, yes,

552
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: dogs will warm themselves by fires, be at a camp

553
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: fire or even some other form of fire. There are

554
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: situations where dogs have been observed to take advantage of

555
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: that heat, but other than that, there they don't seem

556
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: to really interact with fire much, which makes sense most

557
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: you know, most species, even those that have a life

558
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: cycle that depends on periodic burns. It doesn't mean that

559
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: their anatomy is has has evolved to actually deal with

560
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: the reality of fire. Right now, there are some examples

561
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: we've discussed before on the show of animals appearing to,

562
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: at least according to some reports, make direct use of fire.

563
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: For example, the fire hawks of of Australia, which have

564
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: been alleged to uh say, use burning sticks to start

565
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: fires to drive out prey animals that they can then

566
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: swoop down an attack. UM. I could not find any

567
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: evidence of any species of Canada, or any carnivore mammal

568
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: for that matter, doing anything like this, So so this

569
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: does not appear to be some thing that happens at nature.

570
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: In nature, at least on a regular basis, but this

571
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: did get me thinking about the history of human domestication

572
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: of fire and of human domestication of dogs, both of

573
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: which are fascinating and contentious subjects deep in our past.

574
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: Um So a few facts. First of all, while there's

575
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: a lot we don't know about both of these subjects,

576
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: I do think it's very clear that our human ancestors

577
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: domesticated fire long before they domesticated dogs. So for a

578
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: few facts about the general timeline of fire development among

579
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: ancient humans and human ancestors, I was looking at a

580
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: paper published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society b

581
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: Biological Sciences from twenty sixteen by a professor of archaeology

582
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: at the University of Liverpool named John Gault, and it's

583
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: called the discovery of fire by humans a long and

584
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: convoluted process. So in summarizing the existing evidence, Galllet writes

585
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: that finding evidence of fire use by really ancient humans

586
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: and human ancestors is sometimes difficult, right because fire is

587
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: not like it's not like a stone artifact, though it

588
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: does leave physical traces that you can uncover. And he

589
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: writes that by about one point five million years ago,

590
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: there are a number of sites occupied by our hominan

591
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: ancestors that show signs of burned material consistent with deliberate

592
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: fire use. Now, one point five million years ago is

593
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: a long time ago, but but this far back the

594
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: evidence is somewhat inconsistent, and it's worth noting that the

595
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: presence of fire at a human or or hominin campsite

596
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: is not necessarily evidence of the ability to strike fire

597
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: from nothing, say, by using a fire drill or flint

598
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: and tinder box or anything like that. Human humans and

599
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: human ancestors probably captured and preserved fires from nature long

600
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: before we had reliable fire striking methods. But Gallant writes

601
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: that by the time of the Middle Place a scene,

602
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: so that would be between about three quarters of a

603
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: million years ago and about a hundred and twenty five

604
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 1: thousand years ago. Quote recognizable hearths demonstrate a social and

605
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: economic focus on many sites, so the Middle plis too.

606
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: Scene seems to be pretty widely accepted as a time

607
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: by which fire use became widespread and common among humans. Now,

608
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: as wonderful as dogs are, fire is probably more pivotal

609
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: to human history and evolution. It's it's necessary for the

610
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: development of almost all post Stone Age technology so all

611
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: technologies based on metal involved the use of fire and

612
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: their creation. Basically, all technologies after the Neolithic period would

613
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,720
Speaker 1: need fire in order to be made. And this reminds

614
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: me of the quote that outside of a dog, a

615
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 1: book is man's best friend, but inside of a dog

616
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: it's too dark to read. You need the fire. Yeah,

617
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 1: Mark's brother said, yeah, you need the fire. But even

618
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: past the role of fire in creating a lot of

619
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: lady or stages of human technology, it's even been hypothesized

620
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: that fire has played major roles in in changes to

621
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: human biology. And this is not something that's known for sure,

622
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: but there are a number of theories that involve the

623
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: intersection of fire and changes to humans are our ourselves

624
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: our own biology. So one major example is the cooking hypothesis,

625
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: which I think we've alluded to on the show before.

626
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: Maybe someday we should devote a full episode to that

627
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: talk about some of the evidence for and against. But

628
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: this is a hypothesis put forward by a British anthropologist

629
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: and primatologist named Richard Wrangham, which argues that there is

630
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: a link between the invention of cooking, which necessitates fire,

631
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: and the shape of modern human bodies, guts, and brains,

632
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: and in Rangam's own words from a paper dealing with

633
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: some of the more recent evidence for and against this hypothesis, quote,

634
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: the cooking hypothesis posits that control of fire leads to

635
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: such a large increase in energy acquisition, and that means

636
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: through eating and reduces the physical challenges of eating food

637
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: so greatly that the evolution of an obligation to incorporate

638
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: cooked food into the diet should be recognizable by evidence

639
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: of novel digestive adaptations and increased energy use. Yeah, we

640
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: have to remember that with cooking, we're talking about to

641
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: a very large degree, the externalization of human digestion. Things

642
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: that that previously, if we were going to digest it,

643
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: it was all going to have to happen inside of us.

644
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: Now we could, we could take steps towards the acquisition

645
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 1: of those nutrients, sometimes nutrients that would not be available

646
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: to us if we did not cook them. We're able

647
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: to do that outside the human body, right. I mean,

648
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: as sort of central to what Rangum is saying here

649
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: is that subsisting entirely on a raw food diet versus

650
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: subsisting on a cooked food diet, that is such a

651
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: huge difference that you would expect basically different kinds of animals.

652
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: That is a gigantic adaptation that would change change. It

653
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: would change the way your mouth needs to work. You

654
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: would need to devote way less energy to having a

655
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: strong jaw for chewing and crushing. It would change the

656
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: way your gut needs to work. And of course the

657
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: body could maybe spin that energy on other things. And

658
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: like I said, maybe we should come back and do

659
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: a whole episode on that someday, because yeah, I was

660
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: looking at some of the arguments for and against this,

661
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: and it seems like an interesting debate. But so not

662
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: to say that the cooking hypothesis is necessarily correct, but

663
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: I do think it's inarguable that fire is a major

664
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: part of the development of all human culture and shapes

665
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: our lives tremendously. So some use of fire by human

666
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: ancestors probably goes back more than a million years uh,

667
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: the use of fire was common among human ancestors at

668
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: least a few hundred thousand years ago by most estimates.

669
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: The domestication of dogs seems to be roughly in order

670
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: of magnitude more recent. So if common use of fire

671
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: goes back at least a few hundred thousand years. Domestication

672
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 1: of dog seems to go back in the past few

673
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: tens of thousands of years than now on the scientific

674
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: evidence for the history of the domestication of dogs. There's

675
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: also a lot of disagreement here. But there was one

676
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: recent development I've actually been wanting to talk about on

677
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: the show for a bit, and this gives us a

678
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: good chance to do it today. So there was a

679
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: paper that was published just earlier this year by Angela

680
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: our period all published in p n a S called

681
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 1: Dog Domestication and the Dual Dispersal of People and Dogs

682
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: into the Americas. And this was a paper that was

683
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: trying to settle some some ongoing debates and outstanding questions

684
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: about the history of dog domestication and how that relates

685
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: to the history of human migration over the continents. And

686
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: so this study tried to use DNA evidence from both

687
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: dogs and humans to try to trace the history of

688
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: the relationship between the two and uh according to the

689
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: authors here, they're findings suggests quote that dogs were domesticated

690
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: in Siberia by about twenty three thousand years ago, possibly

691
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: while both people and wolves were isolated during the harsh

692
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: climate of the Last Glacial maximum. Dogs then accompanied the

693
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 1: first people into the Americas and traveled with them as

694
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: humans rapidly dispersed into the continent beginning about fifteen thousand

695
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: years ago. So I was reading a really good write

696
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 1: up of this new paper by David Grimm in Science

697
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: that fills in some more context on this and give

698
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: some texture to it. So um, according to the model

699
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: put forward by the study, Grim rights that the people

700
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 1: who domesticated dogs probably lived in the area of northeastern

701
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 1: Siberia during the later part of the last Glacial period

702
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: the Last Ice Age, and these would have been human

703
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: hunter is using stone tipped weapons who probably subsisted on

704
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: megafauna like bison and wooly ma'am myths and the wolf

705
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: like ancestors of modern dogs may have actually been helping

706
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: these humans in their hunting. And then from here, from

707
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: this ancestral population in northeastern Siberia, the descendants of these

708
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: proto dogs went both east and west with their human companions,

709
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: so east into the Americas and then west into Eurasia.

710
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: So the team behind the study, they relied on physical

711
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 1: evidence in the form of mitochondrial DNA from a human

712
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: and dog remains. Mitochondrial DNA is more readily preserved over

713
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: time and say fossil remains and animal remains than DNA

714
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: from the nucleus of cells. And they concluded that all

715
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: lineages of dogs that accompanied the first human settlers into

716
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: North America shared a common ancestor that was indicated by

717
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: a genetic marker called A to B. And the researchers

718
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: believe these dogs who have descended from this common ancestor

719
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: population that were these domestic did or semi domesticated dogs

720
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: born in the company of humans in North Siberia about

721
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: twenty three thousand years ago. Now imagining the sort of

722
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: setting of this ancestral population of of wolves turning into

723
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: dogs and the humans that we're creating them. Uh, the

724
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: setting here is is something like twenty three to thirty

725
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 1: one thousand years ago in this area of northeastern Siberia

726
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: that Grim rights was apparently relatively temperate compared to the

727
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: areas all around it, and it was that way for

728
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: thousands of years. So you have to imagine a place

729
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: that during a an ice age is surrounded on the

730
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,800
Speaker 1: east and the west by regions that are probably too

731
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: cold and barren to sustain the lifestyle of of these

732
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: human hunter gatherers, and so basically they would have been

733
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: isolated in these hunting grounds in northeastern Siberia that it

734
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 1: was kind of an oasis in which they could live.

735
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 1: And there were also populations of wolves occupying this relative

736
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: oasis in in the last glacial period along with these

737
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: human hunters. Now we'll come back to that oasis concept

738
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: in a minute, but first I wanted to mention that

739
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: we're not sure how exactly the domestication of dogs happened.

740
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 1: You know, you want to be careful not to put

741
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: too much confidence in people trying to tell a plausible

742
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: story that could explain things, because we don't know for sure.

743
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: But there's a common hypothesis on the domestication process leading

744
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: from the wolf to the domestic dog that seems pretty plausible,

745
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: and it goes like this. So you have humans who

746
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: are hunting and gathering food and maybe making these large

747
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: mega fauna kills. You know, they're killing a wooly mammoth,

748
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: row a bison or something and roasting meat over the

749
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: fire at camp sites, and wild wolves are obviously drawn

750
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: to the smell of the food that humans have harvested,

751
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: and then from here, it's possible that a selection process

752
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 1: kicks in and it would go something like this. Wolves

753
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: that are too skittish around humans, they just don't you know,

754
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: they keep their distance. They don't want anything to do

755
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 1: with humans. Humans are too scary, uh, they stay back. Obviously,

756
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: any wolves that were too aggressive or violent about approaching

757
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: humans would react with with violence, and probably those wolves

758
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: would be killed. But wolves that happen to have behavioral

759
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: predispositions causing them to approach humans but not approach aggressively,

760
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: would probably get to share in some of the scraps

761
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: at the human campsite. They would somehow get by their

762
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: proximity to human encampments, get to maybe I don't know,

763
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: scavenge the remains or maybe non the bones that the

764
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 1: humans tossed away, or maybe even humans would deliberately share

765
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 1: with them, you know, who knows. And sort of imagine

766
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 1: how that there could be a crossover between the two,

767
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: like from toleration to perhaps active feeding over time. You know,

768
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: it is clear that these dogs are not a threat,

769
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: and hey, maybe they're actually amusing. Maybe they're interesting to

770
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: look at, uh, And and everything can build up from there. Sure,

771
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: and so again, if this hypothesis is in any way correct.

772
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: These brave but docile scavengers, the dogs, the wolves who

773
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: would approach but wouldn't be aggressive. They would benefit from

774
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: the extra food rewards they would get from proximity to

775
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: these human campsites, and from that extra food they would

776
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: have a survival advantage, and over generations there would be

777
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 1: these populations of of wolf like creatures or proto dogs,

778
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: these canids who would essentially have bred themselves to become

779
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: friendly companions to humans. At some point, the humans would

780
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 1: probably have found out that these proto dogs were useful

781
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: for hunting and maybe even for friendship and so forth.

782
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: So again, uh, you know, we don't know that this

783
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: is how it happened, but this is a commonly entertained,

784
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: plausible history of what could have happened here. And it's

785
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: interesting that if there's anything to this hypothesis, the process

786
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 1: that led to the creation of dogs was in part

787
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: their ancestors willingness to walk toward the fire. Yeah. Yeah,

788
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: the dog that tolerates the heat, the light, the dog

789
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,280
Speaker 1: that that steps into the glow of the fire. Yeah.

790
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: That article by David Graham and Science actually quotes one

791
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: of the collaborators on the study and archaeologist named David Meltzer,

792
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: who I believe is on faculty at Southern Methodist University

793
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: uh And, and his quote is great. He says, these

794
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: people were probably sleeping on the ground in furs, roasting

795
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 1: fresh kills on the fire. If you're a hungry carnivore

796
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: and you smell a mammoth barbecue, you're going to check

797
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: it out. And so, yeah, I like the idea that,

798
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: you know, maybe in the same way that cooking changed humans,

799
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: something cooking could have possibly played a role in the

800
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 1: attraction of these wolf like ancestors of modern dogs. Yeah,

801
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: and I find it interesting to think about this and

802
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: then think about, you know, the end result with with

803
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: mine and as tech situation civilization. To imagine these Eurasian

804
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: people's moving across the world uh over into North America

805
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: and then downward towards Meso American and South America. If

806
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: what did they bring with them? You know, obviously they

807
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: brought their cultures and their traditions and their knowledge, but

808
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: they but they brought with them the fire, and they

809
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: brought with them the dog. You know, a lot of

810
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: the other things they may have brought with them. In

811
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 1: the short term would have given way to new crops,

812
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: the new plants they might discover, new animals they might discover,

813
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: but the fire and the dog were certainly constants. Now,

814
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: one last thing I wanted to come back to with

815
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: this study from earlier this year. There's one possible catch

816
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: in this, this hypothetical process by which the earliest ancestors

817
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: of dogs were created. It might be kind of problematic

818
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: to imagine that nomadic humans who are moving all over

819
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: the place to to follow, say, their prey animals, you know,

820
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: they're the nomadic human hunters, could have created these dogs

821
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: because they would be moving and so encountering probably new

822
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: population of wolves wherever they went, so that there might

823
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: not be enough repeated exposure to the same populations of

824
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: wolves to create the dogs. But one of the things

825
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: put forward in this study is that it would have

826
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 1: had this sort of oasis place in in northeastern Siberia

827
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 1: that was surrounded on all sides by more harsh environments.

828
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: So you would have the humans staying in a relatively

829
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: stable location and wolf populations staying in the same uh

830
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: place with them, So you'd have them just interacting in

831
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: close quarters for thousands of years at a time, and

832
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 1: this could have given the opportunity to actually kick off

833
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: and sustain this breeding process turning wolves into dogs. Huh. Interesting.

834
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 1: You know, all of this reminds me of another little

835
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: piece that came up, because in in a weird way,

836
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: it has a little bit of the of the Catholic traditions,

837
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 1: certainly has some of the Mayan traditions, but also some

838
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: of these ideas we've been discussing dealing with the hypothesis

839
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: of of of dog domestication. I was reading in E. J.

840
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: Silawowski's The Inside Flopedia of the Bible and Its Reception,

841
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: Volume six, and and I just want to read this

842
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: little quote from it here. Morris Siegel, to demonstrate the

843
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: fusion of Spanish, Catholic, and Mayan Indian traits in the

844
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: religions of Indians and modern Western Guatemala, recounts a cultured

845
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: creation story he recorded there in nineteen forty one in

846
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: which the child God, which the author says that equals

847
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: Jesus in this scenario, son of our virgin mother, gathered

848
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: together the meat bones from his uncle's feast, planted them,

849
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 1: and built a corral around the place. In three days,

850
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: all the animals in the world had grown from the

851
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: buried bones, and the uncle's jealous opened the corral and

852
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: released the animals. Yet the dog was one of the

853
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: few that remained, whether willingly or simply out of a

854
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: failure to escape to live with human beings. WHOA, I

855
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: like that because it again, it kind of gets into

856
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: an idea about the dog, like the does the dog

857
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: stick with us because it is clever or because it

858
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: is dumb? Because the dog is and I think it's

859
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: ultimately neither of those. But you know that the idea

860
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: that like, why is the dog the animal that seems

861
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 1: closest to us, that is, that is man's best friend.

862
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 1: But then also this account involves slaughter at a camp site,

863
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, it involves the bones of the dead, So

864
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 1: we get that connection to this idea of the dog

865
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: as the a is having an innate connection to the

866
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: realms beyond death, but also this connection to human cooking. Yeah, totally.

867
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: I also like the way that this I don't know

868
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: this something about this vision of the dog makes it

869
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 1: both the most and least mysterious of creatures. You know,

870
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: it's like the most familiar but also has one of

871
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: the most intriguing histories that we, you know, is somewhat

872
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: obscure to us. Yeah. Yeah, the idea that like the

873
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: dog has just the dog is there. The dog has

874
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: remained there. Uh. Even if you don't want the dog anymore,

875
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: the dog will will stay, uh, which is kind of

876
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: reflected in this story. To the jealous uncles are like,

877
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: get these animals, Get these animals out of here hanging

878
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,399
Speaker 1: out around our bones. The dog didn't go. The dog

879
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: is here to stay. But I have to say, I

880
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: do really like this idea of the dog is the

881
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: firebringer and the dog and dog is the dog carrying

882
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 1: the fire for humanity, lighting the way for us into

883
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: the dark, because this does seem to just it's kind

884
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: of lines up with a lot of the the attributes

885
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: that we we recognize in our relationships with our pets,

886
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, particularly with the dog. You know,

887
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: this this is our buddy, This is he's a guide.

888
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 1: He is a guardian and and perhaps has esoteric knowledge

889
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 1: of the great beyond. All dogs are wizards. Yeah yeah,

890
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: And so the next time you're you're making eye contact

891
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 1: with your dog, just remember this animal knows the way

892
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: to Micklin. Now, obviously we'd love to hear from everyone

893
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: out there, especially dog owners. I'm sure you have some

894
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 1: thoughts on all of this. I do want to drive

895
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: home the Please do not try and give your dog

896
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: anything on fire because of anything you heard in this episode.

897
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: We're certain your dog doesn't want any part of the fire,

898
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: and only disaster can occur if you try to recreate

899
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: these artistic and mythic images um using an actual knine. Yes, children,

900
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: do not try to recreate an active dog py romancy

901
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: you heard about on this podcast. However, I will just

902
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: throw this out there. If you want to get a

903
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: dog toy that looks like a torch or a flaming brand,

904
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: they do exist, you can, but you can find them.

905
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 1: I'm looking at a couple of varieties of these right now.

906
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: So if you are inspired by this podcast and you

907
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: want pictures of your dog holding a flaming brand, uh,

908
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,879
Speaker 1: you know, bringing some sort of vision to humanity. Uh yeah,

909
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: just go spend nine to seventeen dollars and get yourself

910
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: a a chew toy torch. Are these are these two

911
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: toys merch created by the Dominicans? Um, I know the

912
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: Vatican gift shop. Let's see. I see one that is

913
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: labeled as Frisco Mythical Mates of Viking Torch plus Squeaking

914
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: Dog toy. Uh. It sounds lovely and it's available for

915
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: like Okay, I don't know why it's a Viking thing.

916
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: Like Vikings didn't come up in this podcast at all.

917
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: It needs to be connected to the Mayans or to

918
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:23,919
Speaker 1: ut To Catholics, needs to be a Frisco Mythical Mates

919
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: Catholic Torch plus Squeaking Dog toy or something. All right,

920
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: we're gonna go and close this one out. But yeah,

921
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: certainly right in let us know. Tell us about your

922
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: dog and if you have a dog that has one

923
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: of these, uh, these two toys, yes, I would like

924
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: to see a picture of the two together. In the meantime,

925
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:42,439
Speaker 1: if you want to listen to other episodes of Stuff

926
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, just check out the Stuff to

927
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind podcast feed. You can find that wherever

928
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. We have core episodes publishing Tuesdays

929
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: and Thursdays. We have listener mail on Monday, we have

930
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: an artifact on Wednesday, and we have a Weird House

931
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: Cineam on Friday. That's our time to just talk about

932
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: a weird movie and set the science most we aside

933
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: for the time date hell and then we have a

934
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: rerun on the weekends. Huge thanks as always to our

935
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like

936
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this

937
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future,

938
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: or just to say hello, you can email us at

939
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: contact that Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff

940
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind is production of I heart Radio.

941
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart radio, this is the

942
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening

943
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.