Speaker 1: Pushkin. My dad jokes that when I was like a
Speaker 1: five year old or whatnot, he'd come down to the
Speaker 1: basement and I'd be with my little kitchen set, and
Speaker 1: I'd be on this pretend phone having conversations with my
Speaker 1: fictitious neighbors about my rebellious children. I'd be like, Oh,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe it, Karen, Little Bobby is driving me crazy.
Speaker 1: First of all, it says a lot about my assimilation
Speaker 1: that my child's name was Bobby, despite the fact I'm Indian,
Speaker 1: and you know, Rev, you might have been more appropriate.
Speaker 1: But I don't think there's ever been anything more that
Speaker 1: mattered to me than eventually becoming a parent. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just it's always been a guiding force. That's me,
Speaker 1: Maya Shunker. As you can probably tell, we're mixing things
Speaker 1: up on today's episode. Instead of coming to you as
Speaker 1: the host Maya Shunker, cognitive scientist, I'm coming to you
Speaker 1: as just me Maya. Recently, I was on my way
Speaker 1: to finally becoming a mom, which had been years in
Speaker 1: the making, when my husband Jimmy, and I learned I
Speaker 1: can't healthily carry a baby. We explored gestational surrogacy, having
Speaker 1: someone else carry our baby. This has involved fertility treatments,
Speaker 1: freezing our embryos, and finding a surrogate match. Things were
Speaker 1: finally coming together these past few months until we were
Speaker 1: thrown our own change of plants. I never intended to
Speaker 1: share such a deeply personal story, but then I realized
Speaker 1: that's kind of what this show is all about. My
Speaker 1: guests come here to process their experiences with change out loud,
Speaker 1: and I realized I wanted to do the same. So
Speaker 1: two days after I got some terrible news, I asked
Speaker 1: my producer and friend, Tyler Green, to turn on the
Speaker 1: mics and interview me. This is a slight change of Plants,
Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become
Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. We started our
Speaker 1: conversation by talking about Jimmy and me and our search
Speaker 1: for a surrogate match when we moved out to California.
Speaker 1: That's really when our journey began. And it's very scary, obviously, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, to trust someone so much that you're willing
Speaker 1: to put your child's development and well being in their
Speaker 1: hands is nothing small, you know, So, I mean the
Speaker 1: surrogacy matching process is is so interesting. It feels like
Speaker 1: you're you're dating again, Like you're looking at all these
Speaker 1: profiles of women who can potentially carry your baby, and
Speaker 1: unlike a traditional dating profile, which is like, you know,
Speaker 1: I love playing soccer and making dinners, they're like, you know,
Speaker 1: here's here's my gynecological history, and here's the nature of
Speaker 1: my three births that I had with my own children.
Speaker 1: It feels totally nuts to be learning such intimate details
Speaker 1: about a person's medical history and to be judging compatibility
Speaker 1: based on based on these factors. It's like, hey, how's
Speaker 1: your uterine lining? Does it respond well to fertility treatments?
Speaker 1: You know, Like that's nuts. Usually, as I go about
Speaker 1: the world, I'm focusing on people's personalities and whether I
Speaker 1: like them and whether they like me. And suddenly you're
Speaker 1: in this world where all these bizarre metrics matter more
Speaker 1: than anything else, which is this person's pregnancy history and
Speaker 1: they're ability to conceive. You're like, it's not match dot
Speaker 1: com anymore, but it looks almost the same, there's all.
Speaker 1: But wow, didn't know I needed to know that exactly.
Speaker 1: So we're sifting through all these profiles and we come
Speaker 1: across one her name's Hailey, Sorry, okay, and she just
Speaker 1: looks perfect. She looks perfect. She's smiling in her photo
Speaker 1: with mini mouth ears on her and her head. It's
Speaker 1: a picture with her and her daughter in like Disney World.
Speaker 1: I read her profile. She she's got three beautiful children
Speaker 1: of her own. She's a stay at home mom. She
Speaker 1: is incredibly artistic and creative and builds amazing things in
Speaker 1: her home. And she's also a social activist. And I
Speaker 1: still remember when I looked at her pro file. You know,
Speaker 1: usually you write a paragraph about yourself at the end,
Speaker 1: to just say you know why you're interested in being
Speaker 1: a surrogate and what draws you to it, And you know,
Speaker 1: this is an opportunity for women to say why they
Speaker 1: think they'd be a great surrogate for you. And she said,
Speaker 1: I feel so self conscious talking positively about myself. I've
Speaker 1: asked my sister instead to to share what why she thinks,
Speaker 1: you know, I might make a great surrogate. And it
Speaker 1: was such a beautiful description of Haley, you know, generous
Speaker 1: in such a deep way, so loving, so caring, and
Speaker 1: so loyal. And you know, at the time, I didn't
Speaker 1: know how much that loyalty trait would matter, but it did,
Speaker 1: and so I still remember. It was the middle of
Speaker 1: my work day and I go into a conference room
Speaker 1: and we meet Haley over video, and it was it
Speaker 1: was like love at first sight, you know, that's the
Speaker 1: best way to describe it. I think we all felt
Speaker 1: so bonded to each other. I'd always seen it as
Speaker 1: such a liability, like why can't I carry this baby?
Speaker 1: Why can't I carry this baby? And when I met
Speaker 1: Haleyott for the first time ever, I thought, it's okay
Speaker 1: knowing her and having it be her. We'll make this.
Speaker 1: We'll make this just as good, maybe even better, because
Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to get to know someone like
Speaker 1: her and I had never felt that way before. You know,
Speaker 1: usually after a video call like that, you give both
Speaker 1: sides some time to figure out whether they think it's right.
Speaker 1: I think we just wrote to each other within like
Speaker 1: a minute like we're in the other side, like we're
Speaker 1: in And so we might have been the fastest match
Speaker 1: that ever happened. I love that. So what happens next.
Speaker 1: We plan to do our embryo transfer in February of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, so she comes out here. And there's also
Speaker 1: there's also this like grading system with every they look
Speaker 1: at the embryos under a microscope, and so it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this one's a six double A and this one's a
Speaker 1: two D D And you're like, is this predictive of anything?
Speaker 1: Like I'm walking down the street being like, is that
Speaker 1: person is six double A? Like, what's Obama? Six? Triple A?
Speaker 1: For sure? Probably a seven? Just a seven? What's Beyonce?
Speaker 1: I need to know what Beyonce is? Like if Beyonce
Speaker 1: was a like three CB or like a two D D,
Speaker 1: that gives hope to embryos everywhere. Okay, So anyway, we
Speaker 1: were we chose our best looking embryo, and they were
Speaker 1: all genetically tested, so we had you know, we knew
Speaker 1: that they were chromosomally normal. So we choose choose our
Speaker 1: best one. And I remember sitting the ultrasound room that
Speaker 1: day because you know, Kaylee was She's so inclusive throughout
Speaker 1: the process. You know, I was like, do you prefer
Speaker 1: we're out of the room in the room, like at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, this is her body, And
Speaker 1: she said, I can't imagine not having you guys in
Speaker 1: the room. So we're in the room, the lights go
Speaker 1: off and I see them take our little girl embryo
Speaker 1: and implant her. And I was overwhelmed by emotion and like,
Speaker 1: I didn't even I don't think of myself as that
Speaker 1: kind of person, like Jimmy's the one who cries at
Speaker 1: Disney movies up Mulan the Lion King. Like I might
Speaker 1: get a little, you know, teary eyed. But I was
Speaker 1: so surprised, and I think it was we can cry
Speaker 1: for lots of reasons, but I think it was it
Speaker 1: was a combination of so many factors. I think one
Speaker 1: was profound relief that this moment was finally happening. You know,
Speaker 1: it had been years in the making. To just see
Speaker 1: it happening finally with like a real human Haley sitting
Speaker 1: there like that was overwhelming for me. And then I
Speaker 1: also just visualized her. I was like, oh, well, she
Speaker 1: have thick, curly hair like me. You know, you just
Speaker 1: have these images. I just imagined her with like you know,
Speaker 1: I kind of had just a bunch of curls shooting
Speaker 1: off my head when I was a kid, and they
Speaker 1: had there was no orders, just randomness, um everywhere. Ilse
Speaker 1: like I wonder if she'll have my you know, Shirley
Speaker 1: Temple spiral curls um, but with like an ethnic twist,
Speaker 1: because they're you know, kind of it's I have textured hair.
Speaker 1: I will send them to you, um and so. And
Speaker 1: I just remember holding Jimmy's hands so tightly, and um,
Speaker 1: it was a beautiful moment. And you know, we left,
Speaker 1: and obviously we have nerves and whatnot. And you know,
Speaker 1: the way that it works, you're supposed to wait until
Speaker 1: ten days after to do the formal blood work, but
Speaker 1: Haley wasn't going to wait, so she was going to
Speaker 1: the store buying pregnancy tests. She proceeds to send us
Speaker 1: images of all the pregnancy tests she's been taking over
Speaker 1: the preceding days, of the line darkening and darkening and darkening,
Speaker 1: and it's very positive. And she gets her blood test
Speaker 1: done and we're having a baby girl, you know. And
Speaker 1: so we're over the moon and we sign in by
Speaker 1: video to that first ultrasound and we see her little
Speaker 1: heart beating, and in the same way that Haley was
Speaker 1: perfect to us, that little embryo seemed freaking perfect to
Speaker 1: us too, so cute and like the nurse said to
Speaker 1: Haley and us, your little gals measuring perfectly. Her heart's
Speaker 1: beating at a perfect rate. We're good, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: we felt so relieved, you know, and we go home
Speaker 1: and it's so funny how these surrogacy pregnancies work. You know,
Speaker 1: you want to be able to control things, so you
Speaker 1: end up focusing on really small things like is her
Speaker 1: a multi vitamin? Like the best version of the multi vitamin?
Speaker 1: You know, Like how much folic acid is she getting?
Speaker 1: You know, like you just start asking yourself all these
Speaker 1: really small things. It's a it's like that Iceberg analogy.
Speaker 1: You just see the tips. You focus on all those
Speaker 1: things that you think are in your control, but underneath
Speaker 1: the surface, there's a ton of stuff that's totally not
Speaker 1: present to you, and it's totally out of your control.
Speaker 1: And it's about thirty at night, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: we get a text from Haley and she says, are
Speaker 1: you guys up? And we immediately know something's wrong, because, like,
Speaker 1: why is she texting us at eleven thirty her time?
Speaker 1: Asking you for up? We call her and she says,
Speaker 1: I just started bleeding profusely and I think I'm maybe
Speaker 1: miscarrying and I'm not sure what's happening. And my heart
Speaker 1: just sank and I was like, oh my god, how
Speaker 1: is this possible. We just saw the baby a few
Speaker 1: hours ago on the ultrasound, you know, looking super healthy
Speaker 1: and happy, and Haley was healthy and happy. Like it
Speaker 1: just felt like a tragedy, you know, And to go
Speaker 1: from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows
Speaker 1: within a six hour period, it just felt cruel. Sure enough,
Speaker 1: she goes in the next morning for an ultrasound and
Speaker 1: there's nothing there, you know, like there was something there
Speaker 1: the day before, but there's nothing there today. That's what
Speaker 1: they told us. So she had miscarried. And I will
Speaker 1: tell you, the hardest part about a surrogacy journey is
Speaker 1: that there's a third person grieving along with you. And
Speaker 1: that's so excruciating. It's like, Jimmy and I felt like
Speaker 1: we could manage our own pain, but to see someone
Speaker 1: who who was so loving and only wanted to bring
Speaker 1: us joy suffering and in pain and going through the
Speaker 1: physical trauma of a miscarriage, like bleeding throughout the entire
Speaker 1: night and horrible cramping and feeling nauseated and dizzy and
Speaker 1: all the things. Like, it's so horrible. It's so horrible
Speaker 1: to have a third person. And you know, in our
Speaker 1: minds we're thinking, because guilt is an inevitable feeling all
Speaker 1: on all sides. We're thinking to ourselves like we're the
Speaker 1: reason Haley had her first miscarriage, you know, That's what
Speaker 1: we're thinking. And Haley's probably thinking, oh, why did this happen?
Speaker 1: Like why why couldn't I make this work? And we're
Speaker 1: all having these irrational thoughts that are not rooted in
Speaker 1: real things, because you just want to find an explanation,
Speaker 1: you know, you want to you want to blame someone,
Speaker 1: and the easiest person to blame is yourself or who
Speaker 1: else abody to blame the universe, like I don't, I don't,
Speaker 1: you know, So I just wanted to blame myself for everything.
Speaker 1: And so so that happens. And the reason why I
Speaker 1: was so painful, Tyler, is that it happened the day
Speaker 1: before we all entered quarantine in California, so we couldn't
Speaker 1: even grieve with our close friends and family, like the
Speaker 1: very small circle of people we had told about this pregnancy.
Speaker 1: And at this point were you were you thinking? I'm
Speaker 1: sure you had actually many thoughts at this point, like
Speaker 1: should we work together with Haley again or somebody else?
Speaker 1: It's a great question. We so desperately wanted to work
Speaker 1: with Haley, and we were hoping doctors would tell us
Speaker 1: that we could, that it would make sense too. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: you know, they said, we have no reason to believe
Speaker 1: anything really about this situation, like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: miscarriages at six weeks, and we were really concerned at
Speaker 1: the time, like, well, Haley be down for this. She
Speaker 1: just went through a traumatic experience and one that she
Speaker 1: did not you know, you can sign up for this,
Speaker 1: but like, do you really know what that's going to be, like,
Speaker 1: you know, And so one thing that really touched our
Speaker 1: hearts is when she said, I'm in this with you
Speaker 1: until the end. I will do this until you become parents.
Speaker 1: And just to catch us up on the timeline, so
Speaker 1: this is again March of twenty twenty exactly, and then
Speaker 1: at some point you make a decision to try again
Speaker 1: or you're able to try again. Yeah, so we all
Speaker 1: get vaccinated, but we try again, and so she comes
Speaker 1: out here and we go through the whole process again.
Speaker 1: So this is u August of twenty twenty one. So
Speaker 1: August twenty twenty one, Haley flies out here and we
Speaker 1: just had a wonderful time because it was in some
Speaker 1: ways it was as though no time has passed, right
Speaker 1: because we felt so close to her. But in other
Speaker 1: ways it was as though so much time had passed,
Speaker 1: because you could see changes in the depth of our
Speaker 1: conversation and just how comfortable we felt with each other.
Speaker 1: And so we go into the room and I can
Speaker 1: already feel some of the light you know, PTSDE feelings
Speaker 1: kicking in because this time when we're doing the ultrasound,
Speaker 1: I don't cry to do the transfer. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: the embryo transfer. I'm just I'm holding my breath more
Speaker 1: than I did the first time. Like I feel a
Speaker 1: little anxious, you know, and you know, everyone's like, just
Speaker 1: stay positive, stay positive, stay positive. So I so we
Speaker 1: stayed positive, and within two weeks we got those darkening
Speaker 1: line pregnancy tests. I told her that, you know, her,
Speaker 1: her hormone levels were super or high this time. So
Speaker 1: I was like, Haley, you're pregnant AF. So that was
Speaker 1: our that was our WhatsApp group names, Haley's pregnant AF.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back to the slight change of plants.
Speaker 1: When Jimmy and I found out that Haley was pregnant again,
Speaker 1: we were ecstatic. We had transferred one embryo, and we
Speaker 1: felt so fortunate it had worked. Jimmy and I would
Speaker 1: go for long walks together and start imagining what life
Speaker 1: would be like with our little Chinese Indian baby, and
Speaker 1: we named her like Corina, that's going to be our name.
Speaker 1: So as pregnant af with Karna shunker Lee and she's pregnant,
Speaker 1: and like clockwork, on exactly the same day, Haley gets
Speaker 1: morning sickness as she did the first pregnancy. Everything's going
Speaker 1: super well, her levels are looking super strong, and I
Speaker 1: just start I just start feeling anxious as the six
Speaker 1: week mark approaches, because it feels very irrational. I'm like,
Speaker 1: there's no reason at all to believe that if there's
Speaker 1: a miscarriage, it would happen, you know, at the six
Speaker 1: week mark, right like it could happen at seven and
Speaker 1: a half weeks, it could happen at you know, twenty weeks.
Speaker 1: You just don't know in this process. So I felt
Speaker 1: like I was getting irrationally anxious. So I kept trying
Speaker 1: to talk myself off, to talk myself off the ledge
Speaker 1: and be like, there's no reason to believe this would happen.
Speaker 1: I'd said of an email address for Karina, and I'd
Speaker 1: been sending her emails along the way about the pregnancy,
Speaker 1: about Haley. It's like, hey, you know, hey little Karina,
Speaker 1: it's mom. You know, here's an update. And I remember
Speaker 1: I wrote to her the night before. I said, hey, um,
Speaker 1: tomorrow is a really big milestone for us, because if
Speaker 1: we get through it, like it's it's one day more,
Speaker 1: you know that next day, it's a one day more
Speaker 1: than the last pregnancy, and I just feel like I'll
Speaker 1: feel some relief. It's Tuesday morning. I wake up and
Speaker 1: I have relief because I look at my phone and
Speaker 1: I'm like, there's no message from her saying that she
Speaker 1: bled overnight. And then she texts us saying, you know,
Speaker 1: I was a little scared this morning because I woke
Speaker 1: up not feeling morning sickness. She had had other days
Speaker 1: like that, so it wasn't immediately alarming. And then at
Speaker 1: ten thirty am, I get a message from her and
Speaker 1: she says I just had a gush of blood and
Speaker 1: my heart sank. I was like, you have got to
Speaker 1: be kidding me, How is this happening again, like on
Speaker 1: exactly the same day as last time, Like it just
Speaker 1: it didn't make any sense, and so we called the
Speaker 1: doctor and they they're like, Okay, it could be a miscarriage. However,
Speaker 1: it could be another thing. It could be a hematoma. Right,
Speaker 1: it could be that there's some blood pooling in that
Speaker 1: area and it just needs to get out. Why don't
Speaker 1: we have her go get an ultrasound. And so, even
Speaker 1: though she's like actively bleeding, she goes to get this ultrasound,
Speaker 1: and we're expecting the worst. I mean, I'm an optimist,
Speaker 1: so of course, until you tell me like, no, there's
Speaker 1: nothing there, I'm always going to hope. I'm always going
Speaker 1: to hold on to that shred. I think Jimmy at
Speaker 1: this point had just given up. He was like, Maya,
Speaker 1: all hope is lost. And this incredibly kind doctor is
Speaker 1: on the call and he's doing the ultrasound. He's like,
Speaker 1: there's your baby, and her heart beats perfect one hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty. She's measuring exactly as she should at six weeks,
Speaker 1: and oh, my gother is that hematoma? Like there is
Speaker 1: this blood pool and so that does explain the bleeding. Like,
Speaker 1: you guys are good, And I was just sobbing, like
Speaker 1: the relief that I felt. Oh my gosh, there's an explanation,
Speaker 1: and our baby is looking great and we're going to
Speaker 1: have this child. And then he goes over the area
Speaker 1: again and he goes, oh my god, there's another one.
Speaker 1: You guys are having twins, and that one's also perfect.
Speaker 1: That one has a beautiful heartbeat and is measuring great.
Speaker 1: You guys are having twins. And Haley was so happy.
Speaker 1: And I remember in that moment I said to her,
Speaker 1: I said, look, I'm grateful for one or two. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't. I didn't need to. I just just wanted one,
Speaker 1: you know. But what matters to me most is that
Speaker 1: it's with you. That's what I just kept saying. I
Speaker 1: was like, I wanted this to be with Haley. I
Speaker 1: wanted this to be with Haley, and it's with you,
Speaker 1: and we get to do this journey with you. And
Speaker 1: Jimmy and I take a walk. At this point of
Speaker 1: the day, we're like, let's just get some fresh air.
Speaker 1: And now we're planning our life with twins. We're thinking
Speaker 1: to ourselves, we need to buy a home. There should
Speaker 1: be like many bedrooms, and how are we going to
Speaker 1: care for twins? And we start thinking about a second,
Speaker 1: you know, Haley and said, I guess it's time to
Speaker 1: start thinking of another names. So we're like, what goes
Speaker 1: well with Karina? And we to start brainstorming, and we
Speaker 1: have this walk and it's just like we're floating on air,
Speaker 1: you know it. We can't wait to tell the people
Speaker 1: who we've told that she's miscarried too, that it's actually
Speaker 1: the opposite. And you're not even just getting one. We're
Speaker 1: getting too. So I go back home and I text
Speaker 1: Hailey and I say, you know, I deleted the what
Speaker 1: to Expect AFT on my phone this morning when I
Speaker 1: got the news about the blood because I didn't want
Speaker 1: to get my hopes up and I just wanted it.
Speaker 1: I wanted to remove all evidence of that of my phone,
Speaker 1: and I said maybe I should reinstall it. And her
Speaker 1: response was, guys, the thing that I've been bleeding out recently,
Speaker 1: Like it's it's not blood. And she takes a picture
Speaker 1: of it and we send it to our doctor and
Speaker 1: our doctor calls us or like could this be anything?
Speaker 1: Could this be? Like? What is this? You know? Jimmy
Speaker 1: studied biology in college. He's like, my May that's his
Speaker 1: nickname for me. He's like, my, this is not a
Speaker 1: blood clot. I'm so sorry, and when the doctor looked
Speaker 1: at it, I just remember I heard I heard the
Speaker 1: sound in her voice. She's like, you know you could
Speaker 1: hear it, like I knew the answer before she said it.
Speaker 1: She goes, I'm just so sorry, guys. I can't believe
Speaker 1: this has happened. And it's hard to describe what that
Speaker 1: feels like. I wanted to throw up. I felt totally
Speaker 1: nauseated and disoriented. I felt so sad that Haley was suffering.
Speaker 1: I felt so sad she was going through this trauma again.
Speaker 1: And it was confirmed by ultrasound that there was nothing
Speaker 1: there anymore the next morning. And the hardest part of
Speaker 1: this process was learning that our embryos were actually great,
Speaker 1: and Ally was great, but very likely there's some sort
Speaker 1: of incompatibility between our biologies. The doctor's best guest right
Speaker 1: now is that her immune system sees our embryos as
Speaker 1: foreign in some way. I asked my doctor, I said,
Speaker 1: have you ever seen this before? And she said no,
Speaker 1: and I think there's a bizarre immune response happening here.
Speaker 1: And what that meant is we can't work with her anymore.
Speaker 1: She said to me this morning, she goes, it is
Speaker 1: so cruel that a relationship that is so compatible is
Speaker 1: biologically incompatible and you just can't fight biology. What are
Speaker 1: you going to do? You know, the doctors are like,
Speaker 1: this would probably happen again, and we can't put you
Speaker 1: guys through that. You can't put yourself through that. You
Speaker 1: just have to find another surrogate. And what's again astonishing
Speaker 1: to us is like Haley was willing to try again
Speaker 1: with us and again and again, because that's the kind
Speaker 1: of person she is. And I'm just overwhelmed still that
Speaker 1: someone would go through this, go through this pain because
Speaker 1: she's so eager to make us happy. It's an incredible gift.
Speaker 1: I've never met anybody like her in my life. I
Speaker 1: probably never will. Yeah, so I'm hearing you tell this story.
Speaker 1: I just want to acknowledge that it is incredibly harrowing
Speaker 1: and what you've gone through over the last few days
Speaker 1: is horrible, and yeah, I am so sorry. Thank you.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm also struck by the fact that you
Speaker 1: have gone through this experience twice now, and that the
Speaker 1: first time that Hailey miscarried was back in March of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, when COVID was beginning for all of us
Speaker 1: and I just remember that the world was sort of
Speaker 1: changing overnight for many of us, and then on top
Speaker 1: of that change, you had this other incredible loss, And
Speaker 1: I'm curious, what was that experience? Like, it was really hard,
Speaker 1: it's very lonely, it's very isolating. You feel like people
Speaker 1: can intellectualize it, but also maybe not just fully understand
Speaker 1: the emotions behind it, because I didn't fully understand the
Speaker 1: emotions behind it until I went through it myself. I
Speaker 1: just didn't. It built my empathy so much. And the
Speaker 1: way that I dealt with it, Tyler was I was like,
Speaker 1: I have to make something good out of this. And
Speaker 1: then it's funny to think back. I've just forgotten about
Speaker 1: this until you mentioned it, Like I thought of this
Speaker 1: podcast idea called a Slight Change to Plans, and it
Speaker 1: was a grief project for me. It was my way
Speaker 1: of trying to find meaning and answers in a situation
Speaker 1: that I couldn't find meaning and answers in and I
Speaker 1: didn't know how to navigate the change that was happening
Speaker 1: in my life. I didn't know how to navigate the miscarriage.
Speaker 1: I didn't know how to navigate COVID, I didn't know
Speaker 1: how to navigate all the loss that was happening in
Speaker 1: the world. I didn't know how to navigate the racial injustice.
Speaker 1: I felt completely overwhelmed, and I just thought to myself,
Speaker 1: I know that I'm not alone in not knowing how
Speaker 1: to navigate this moment. I know that there is a
Speaker 1: treasure trove of wisdom out there on how to navigate change,
Speaker 1: especially unwanted, unexpected change, and it's just a matter of
Speaker 1: finding those stories and learning from them. And that's what
Speaker 1: led me to build the show. It came out of
Speaker 1: a personal desire her to understand how it is that
Speaker 1: people navigate change and to learn from them, because you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a scientist, right, a cognitive scientist. I study how
Speaker 1: the mind works, I study change. I know the science,
Speaker 1: but the science was falling short for me, and I
Speaker 1: felt like I needed to hear people's stories and I
Speaker 1: needed to emotionally connect with people. It strikes me as
Speaker 1: I think I knew that, but I'm just hearing it
Speaker 1: for the first time, that this was your grief process, Right,
Speaker 1: I'm saying that correctly, Like this was how, in a way,
Speaker 1: how you grieved, Right? Yeah, I don't, and I don't
Speaker 1: think I really made the connection fully until this moment
Speaker 1: where everyone grieves differently, you know, like I was. I
Speaker 1: was talking to Michael Lewis after the tragic passing of
Speaker 1: his daughter, and he said, Maya, no one knows shit
Speaker 1: about grief. Everyone's telling me how to feel, everyone's telling
Speaker 1: me what book to read. Everyone's telling me to do
Speaker 1: this and see this therapist and talk about No. I
Speaker 1: need to the Michael Lewis plan how I grieve. And
Speaker 1: he's so freaking right about that, Like there is no
Speaker 1: one size fits all recipe for how to grieve. There's
Speaker 1: no one size fits all recipe for how to change,
Speaker 1: how to deal with change. And that's a sobering realization.
Speaker 1: When you're in the throes of grief, you just want answers,
Speaker 1: you want a solution set, and you can't get it.
Speaker 1: And so what you do instead is realize, well, I
Speaker 1: have to find I have to create a Maya plan.
Speaker 1: And I do my best when I'm active and I
Speaker 1: throw myself into passion projects when I'm in a bad place.
Speaker 1: Like that is. Everyone has their own recipe, but for me,
Speaker 1: that is how I heal to process out loud, to
Speaker 1: be open with people, to throw myselves into creative projects
Speaker 1: that can hopefully help people and make people feel stronger. So, Maya,
Speaker 1: We've been talking for the last couple of days, and
Speaker 1: it might be too soon to answer this question, but
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know what you've learned about yourself from
Speaker 1: from all of this, I learned that I'm really bad
Speaker 1: at acceptance. I always want to justify things. I always
Speaker 1: want to resist the randomness in our world that I
Speaker 1: know is just randomness. You know. I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: have religious or spiritual beliefs that that help guide me
Speaker 1: through these situations. I do just believe in people having
Speaker 1: bad fortunes in life, you know. But I'm bad at acceptance,
Speaker 1: which means I tap into a very natural part of
Speaker 1: my psychology, which is to tell stories, to try to
Speaker 1: make sense of this, to try to find find something
Speaker 1: good that can emerge from this experience. It's one of
Speaker 1: the reasons I'm talking with you today because I need
Speaker 1: something good to come from this. And if one listener
Speaker 1: hears this and feels that they're not alone, and that
Speaker 1: is a silver lining. I want everyone to know that
Speaker 1: my husband and I went through this, because the more
Speaker 1: we talk about it, the more we can support one another.
Speaker 1: I think what I learned is you don't as a person,
Speaker 1: you don't even grieve the same way every time I'm grieving.
Speaker 1: I don't know yet all the ways, but I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm grieving the loss of these twins differently than
Speaker 1: I did the loss we had last year. It feels
Speaker 1: very different, and in some ways, in some ways, it
Speaker 1: feels strangely easier because I feel stronger because I know
Speaker 1: that I've known, I know that I've done this before
Speaker 1: and I did make it out the other end. And
Speaker 1: maybe that's the hope I can give to listeners, like
Speaker 1: these experiences can make you stronger. You can learn how
Speaker 1: to you can learn what helps you build resilience in
Speaker 1: your life along the way, and you can try to
Speaker 1: do that. What would you say to Haley in this
Speaker 1: moment that I love her and life works in really
Speaker 1: interesting ways. You don't know the kinds of people that
Speaker 1: you'll meet and how they'll touch you. So it's a gift.
Speaker 1: It's a gift that we got to know her. That's
Speaker 1: why I that's why the regret part of my brain
Speaker 1: has just kind of turned off, because I'm like, wait,
Speaker 1: if we hadn't gone through this experience, we wouldn't have
Speaker 1: met this wonderful human being, and like that counts too
Speaker 1: in life, right, we should be putting weight on that too,
Speaker 1: humans who come into our lives and enrich our lives,
Speaker 1: Like life is not just about achieving a series of outcomes,
Speaker 1: it's also getting in and creating space for unexpected, beautiful gifts.
Speaker 1: And I think that's how we feel with her. I
Speaker 1: have such a deep appreciation for you sharing this story today,
Speaker 1: and I think that in you being so open, it
Speaker 1: is really going to help a lot of people. And
Speaker 1: I just want to give you a chance. Is there
Speaker 1: anything else that you'd like to share? I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess one thing i'd share is I feel closed off
Speaker 1: right now about the idea of a new surrogate entering
Speaker 1: our lives. So fascinating how these bonds form, but it
Speaker 1: almost feels like a betrayal, like how could I do
Speaker 1: this to Haley? Like how could how could we have
Speaker 1: somebody else? And obviously she was saying like, you guys
Speaker 1: deserve a child so much, and you know she would
Speaker 1: only ever be so supportive of our next steps, But
Speaker 1: instinctively I'm like, oh, I don't want to get close
Speaker 1: to them. I don't want to have my heartbroken again.
Speaker 1: I want distance, like I can feel my protective defense
Speaker 1: mechanisms kind of in high alert. And I talked to
Speaker 1: our agency, our surrogacy agency folks, and they've been amazing,
Speaker 1: And none of them said to me, you know, your
Speaker 1: future surrogate deserves your most loving self. That had an
Speaker 1: impact on me. She does deserve it, and it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be right to shield her from the love and gratitude
Speaker 1: that I feel. So that means that I just need
Speaker 1: to put an effort in hard work to get to
Speaker 1: a point where I can open myself up again before
Speaker 1: embarking on this journey again, because she deserves to have
Speaker 1: all of Jimmy and me and all of our openness
Speaker 1: and all of our love. And so I guess as
Speaker 1: I look at next steps, that's my first next step,
Speaker 1: before any of the logistics. It's like figuring out how
Speaker 1: to feel hopeful and open again. Join me. Next week,
Speaker 1: when I talked to Oscar nominated actor Riz Akhmed, we
Speaker 1: talk about how finally playing a role based on his
Speaker 1: own life has changed his understanding of himself, the one
Speaker 1: role I never get to play as someone like myself.
Speaker 1: I realized that up until his point. As an actor,
Speaker 1: I'd become adept to molding mosques and wearing them for
Speaker 1: other people and representing other people, and realize that actually
Speaker 1: the next stage of growth is about not molding and
Speaker 1: wearing moss, but taking them off. A Slight Change of
Speaker 1: Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Schunker.
Speaker 1: The best part of creating this show is getting to
Speaker 1: collaborate with my formidable Slight Change family. This includes Tyler Greene,
Speaker 1: our senior producer, whose unrivaled empathy and kindness made this
Speaker 1: episode possible. Jen Guera, our senior editor, who brings so
Speaker 1: much heart and conscientiousness to her work on the show.
Speaker 1: Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosteck our associate producer,
Speaker 1: and Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louise Scara wrote our
Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there. I'd like to extend
Speaker 1: my heartfelt thanks to Haley, my dear friend, for her
Speaker 1: openness and having me share our story with all of you.
Speaker 1: Our Fertility Clinic for their compassion and support during our experience,
Speaker 1: and to Michael Lewis for his friendship and advice, and
Speaker 1: of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You
Speaker 1: can follow a slight change of plans on Instagram at
Speaker 1: doctor Maya Shunker and please remember to subscribe, share, and
Speaker 1: rate the show to help get the word outlet see
Speaker 1: you next week. So spoiler alert, Jimmy and I are
Speaker 1: not chill people about this sort of thing, right, the
Speaker 1: health of our future baby. Like Haley was telling us
Speaker 1: that she came home on a Saturday and unbannounced to
Speaker 1: her her husband had bought a bunny Oscar. Okay, now,
Speaker 1: typically this would just be like a you know, Hailey's
Speaker 1: my friend. I'm like, oh my god, that's so much fun.
Speaker 1: You guys have a funny send me pictures, you know,
Speaker 1: how do you decide on the name Oscar? Right, that's
Speaker 1: a normal conversation. And instantly Jimmy and I are like,
Speaker 1: is this a pregnancy hazard? And we go down, We
Speaker 1: go down a rabbit hole, no fun of doing research
Speaker 1: on like pub med and like, are there any viruses
Speaker 1: that rabbits carry that can potentially be transmitted to humans?
Speaker 1: And I just remember there was this moment where Jimmy
Speaker 1: turned over to me and moves his laptop so I
Speaker 1: can see what he's looking at, and it's like he's
Speaker 1: at like rabbit weelfare dot co dot uk looking at
Speaker 1: health facts, and he looked at me and he's like, my,
Speaker 1: I never thought it would come to this.