1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:32,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. My dad jokes that when I was like a 2 00:00:32,756 --> 00:00:34,796 Speaker 1: five year old or whatnot, he'd come down to the 3 00:00:34,796 --> 00:00:37,636 Speaker 1: basement and I'd be with my little kitchen set, and 4 00:00:37,636 --> 00:00:42,396 Speaker 1: I'd be on this pretend phone having conversations with my 5 00:00:42,436 --> 00:00:46,756 Speaker 1: fictitious neighbors about my rebellious children. I'd be like, Oh, 6 00:00:46,796 --> 00:00:50,596 Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe it, Karen, Little Bobby is driving me crazy. 7 00:00:51,116 --> 00:00:54,036 Speaker 1: First of all, it says a lot about my assimilation 8 00:00:54,116 --> 00:00:57,236 Speaker 1: that my child's name was Bobby, despite the fact I'm Indian, 9 00:00:57,316 --> 00:00:59,756 Speaker 1: and you know, Rev, you might have been more appropriate. 10 00:00:59,836 --> 00:01:02,996 Speaker 1: But I don't think there's ever been anything more that 11 00:01:03,116 --> 00:01:07,836 Speaker 1: mattered to me than eventually becoming a parent. I mean, 12 00:01:07,876 --> 00:01:13,276 Speaker 1: it's just it's always been a guiding force. That's me, 13 00:01:13,556 --> 00:01:16,956 Speaker 1: Maya Shunker. As you can probably tell, we're mixing things 14 00:01:17,076 --> 00:01:20,196 Speaker 1: up on today's episode. Instead of coming to you as 15 00:01:20,196 --> 00:01:24,236 Speaker 1: the host Maya Shunker, cognitive scientist, I'm coming to you 16 00:01:24,516 --> 00:01:28,516 Speaker 1: as just me Maya. Recently, I was on my way 17 00:01:28,556 --> 00:01:31,236 Speaker 1: to finally becoming a mom, which had been years in 18 00:01:31,236 --> 00:01:34,316 Speaker 1: the making, when my husband Jimmy, and I learned I 19 00:01:34,356 --> 00:01:38,996 Speaker 1: can't healthily carry a baby. We explored gestational surrogacy, having 20 00:01:38,996 --> 00:01:43,196 Speaker 1: someone else carry our baby. This has involved fertility treatments, 21 00:01:43,396 --> 00:01:49,396 Speaker 1: freezing our embryos, and finding a surrogate match. Things were 22 00:01:49,476 --> 00:01:53,316 Speaker 1: finally coming together these past few months until we were 23 00:01:53,356 --> 00:01:58,916 Speaker 1: thrown our own change of plants. I never intended to 24 00:01:58,956 --> 00:02:02,596 Speaker 1: share such a deeply personal story, but then I realized 25 00:02:02,636 --> 00:02:05,476 Speaker 1: that's kind of what this show is all about. My 26 00:02:05,596 --> 00:02:09,396 Speaker 1: guests come here to process their experiences with change out loud, 27 00:02:09,756 --> 00:02:12,596 Speaker 1: and I realized I wanted to do the same. So 28 00:02:12,636 --> 00:02:15,796 Speaker 1: two days after I got some terrible news, I asked 29 00:02:15,876 --> 00:02:19,116 Speaker 1: my producer and friend, Tyler Green, to turn on the 30 00:02:19,156 --> 00:02:27,156 Speaker 1: mics and interview me. This is a slight change of Plants, 31 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:30,236 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 32 00:02:30,596 --> 00:02:43,636 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. We started our 33 00:02:43,636 --> 00:02:46,596 Speaker 1: conversation by talking about Jimmy and me and our search 34 00:02:46,676 --> 00:02:50,076 Speaker 1: for a surrogate match when we moved out to California. 35 00:02:50,356 --> 00:02:55,196 Speaker 1: That's really when our journey began. And it's very scary, obviously, right. 36 00:02:55,276 --> 00:02:58,836 Speaker 1: I mean, to trust someone so much that you're willing 37 00:02:58,916 --> 00:03:02,236 Speaker 1: to put your child's development and well being in their 38 00:03:02,236 --> 00:03:08,916 Speaker 1: hands is nothing small, you know, So, I mean the 39 00:03:09,316 --> 00:03:14,876 Speaker 1: surrogacy matching process is is so interesting. It feels like 40 00:03:14,916 --> 00:03:17,716 Speaker 1: you're you're dating again, Like you're looking at all these 41 00:03:18,436 --> 00:03:22,636 Speaker 1: profiles of women who can potentially carry your baby, and 42 00:03:24,116 --> 00:03:26,556 Speaker 1: unlike a traditional dating profile, which is like, you know, 43 00:03:26,596 --> 00:03:30,516 Speaker 1: I love playing soccer and making dinners, they're like, you know, 44 00:03:30,876 --> 00:03:36,196 Speaker 1: here's here's my gynecological history, and here's the nature of 45 00:03:36,236 --> 00:03:38,476 Speaker 1: my three births that I had with my own children. 46 00:03:38,876 --> 00:03:43,396 Speaker 1: It feels totally nuts to be learning such intimate details 47 00:03:43,436 --> 00:03:47,316 Speaker 1: about a person's medical history and to be judging compatibility 48 00:03:47,476 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 1: based on based on these factors. It's like, hey, how's 49 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:54,996 Speaker 1: your uterine lining? Does it respond well to fertility treatments? 50 00:03:55,116 --> 00:03:57,996 Speaker 1: You know, Like that's nuts. Usually, as I go about 51 00:03:57,996 --> 00:04:00,796 Speaker 1: the world, I'm focusing on people's personalities and whether I 52 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:03,996 Speaker 1: like them and whether they like me. And suddenly you're 53 00:04:03,996 --> 00:04:06,396 Speaker 1: in this world where all these bizarre metrics matter more 54 00:04:06,396 --> 00:04:08,876 Speaker 1: than anything else, which is this person's pregnancy history and 55 00:04:08,876 --> 00:04:11,916 Speaker 1: they're ability to conceive. You're like, it's not match dot 56 00:04:11,916 --> 00:04:14,516 Speaker 1: com anymore, but it looks almost the same, there's all. 57 00:04:15,636 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 1: But wow, didn't know I needed to know that exactly. 58 00:04:19,796 --> 00:04:23,956 Speaker 1: So we're sifting through all these profiles and we come 59 00:04:23,956 --> 00:04:33,636 Speaker 1: across one her name's Hailey, Sorry, okay, and she just 60 00:04:33,676 --> 00:04:41,996 Speaker 1: looks perfect. She looks perfect. She's smiling in her photo 61 00:04:42,116 --> 00:04:45,436 Speaker 1: with mini mouth ears on her and her head. It's 62 00:04:45,436 --> 00:04:48,196 Speaker 1: a picture with her and her daughter in like Disney World. 63 00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:55,116 Speaker 1: I read her profile. She she's got three beautiful children 64 00:04:55,116 --> 00:04:58,796 Speaker 1: of her own. She's a stay at home mom. She 65 00:04:59,116 --> 00:05:03,156 Speaker 1: is incredibly artistic and creative and builds amazing things in 66 00:05:03,196 --> 00:05:07,516 Speaker 1: her home. And she's also a social activist. And I 67 00:05:07,556 --> 00:05:09,596 Speaker 1: still remember when I looked at her pro file. You know, 68 00:05:09,676 --> 00:05:11,796 Speaker 1: usually you write a paragraph about yourself at the end, 69 00:05:11,836 --> 00:05:14,396 Speaker 1: to just say you know why you're interested in being 70 00:05:14,516 --> 00:05:18,236 Speaker 1: a surrogate and what draws you to it, And you know, 71 00:05:18,276 --> 00:05:20,996 Speaker 1: this is an opportunity for women to say why they 72 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:23,276 Speaker 1: think they'd be a great surrogate for you. And she said, 73 00:05:24,316 --> 00:05:27,956 Speaker 1: I feel so self conscious talking positively about myself. I've 74 00:05:27,956 --> 00:05:32,236 Speaker 1: asked my sister instead to to share what why she thinks, 75 00:05:32,516 --> 00:05:36,316 Speaker 1: you know, I might make a great surrogate. And it 76 00:05:36,396 --> 00:05:40,916 Speaker 1: was such a beautiful description of Haley, you know, generous 77 00:05:40,956 --> 00:05:45,516 Speaker 1: in such a deep way, so loving, so caring, and 78 00:05:45,596 --> 00:05:48,036 Speaker 1: so loyal. And you know, at the time, I didn't 79 00:05:48,036 --> 00:05:53,236 Speaker 1: know how much that loyalty trait would matter, but it did, 80 00:05:53,276 --> 00:05:55,196 Speaker 1: and so I still remember. It was the middle of 81 00:05:55,236 --> 00:05:57,676 Speaker 1: my work day and I go into a conference room 82 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:01,476 Speaker 1: and we meet Haley over video, and it was it 83 00:06:01,556 --> 00:06:03,356 Speaker 1: was like love at first sight, you know, that's the 84 00:06:03,396 --> 00:06:06,836 Speaker 1: best way to describe it. I think we all felt 85 00:06:06,876 --> 00:06:11,236 Speaker 1: so bonded to each other. I'd always seen it as 86 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:13,996 Speaker 1: such a liability, like why can't I carry this baby? 87 00:06:14,036 --> 00:06:16,916 Speaker 1: Why can't I carry this baby? And when I met 88 00:06:16,956 --> 00:06:22,276 Speaker 1: Haleyott for the first time ever, I thought, it's okay 89 00:06:23,516 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 1: knowing her and having it be her. We'll make this. 90 00:06:28,196 --> 00:06:31,716 Speaker 1: We'll make this just as good, maybe even better, because 91 00:06:31,716 --> 00:06:33,436 Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to get to know someone like 92 00:06:33,516 --> 00:06:37,116 Speaker 1: her and I had never felt that way before. You know, 93 00:06:37,196 --> 00:06:39,596 Speaker 1: usually after a video call like that, you give both 94 00:06:39,596 --> 00:06:42,516 Speaker 1: sides some time to figure out whether they think it's right. 95 00:06:42,956 --> 00:06:44,676 Speaker 1: I think we just wrote to each other within like 96 00:06:44,676 --> 00:06:46,716 Speaker 1: a minute like we're in the other side, like we're 97 00:06:46,716 --> 00:06:49,356 Speaker 1: in And so we might have been the fastest match 98 00:06:49,396 --> 00:06:54,876 Speaker 1: that ever happened. I love that. So what happens next. 99 00:06:56,356 --> 00:07:00,116 Speaker 1: We plan to do our embryo transfer in February of 100 00:07:00,316 --> 00:07:05,916 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, so she comes out here. And there's also 101 00:07:06,116 --> 00:07:09,676 Speaker 1: there's also this like grading system with every they look 102 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:11,956 Speaker 1: at the embryos under a microscope, and so it's like, oh, 103 00:07:12,036 --> 00:07:13,916 Speaker 1: this one's a six double A and this one's a 104 00:07:13,916 --> 00:07:17,516 Speaker 1: two D D And you're like, is this predictive of anything? 105 00:07:17,636 --> 00:07:20,036 Speaker 1: Like I'm walking down the street being like, is that 106 00:07:20,116 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 1: person is six double A? Like, what's Obama? Six? Triple A? 107 00:07:24,916 --> 00:07:28,196 Speaker 1: For sure? Probably a seven? Just a seven? What's Beyonce? 108 00:07:28,436 --> 00:07:31,476 Speaker 1: I need to know what Beyonce is? Like if Beyonce 109 00:07:31,716 --> 00:07:34,636 Speaker 1: was a like three CB or like a two D D, 110 00:07:34,916 --> 00:07:38,716 Speaker 1: that gives hope to embryos everywhere. Okay, So anyway, we 111 00:07:38,716 --> 00:07:41,836 Speaker 1: were we chose our best looking embryo, and they were 112 00:07:41,836 --> 00:07:43,956 Speaker 1: all genetically tested, so we had you know, we knew 113 00:07:43,956 --> 00:07:47,036 Speaker 1: that they were chromosomally normal. So we choose choose our 114 00:07:47,076 --> 00:07:51,796 Speaker 1: best one. And I remember sitting the ultrasound room that 115 00:07:51,876 --> 00:07:56,596 Speaker 1: day because you know, Kaylee was She's so inclusive throughout 116 00:07:56,596 --> 00:07:58,596 Speaker 1: the process. You know, I was like, do you prefer 117 00:07:58,636 --> 00:08:00,236 Speaker 1: we're out of the room in the room, like at 118 00:08:00,236 --> 00:08:02,516 Speaker 1: the end of the day, this is her body, And 119 00:08:02,556 --> 00:08:04,516 Speaker 1: she said, I can't imagine not having you guys in 120 00:08:04,556 --> 00:08:06,796 Speaker 1: the room. So we're in the room, the lights go 121 00:08:06,876 --> 00:08:13,076 Speaker 1: off and I see them take our little girl embryo 122 00:08:13,396 --> 00:08:20,316 Speaker 1: and implant her. And I was overwhelmed by emotion and like, 123 00:08:20,356 --> 00:08:22,156 Speaker 1: I didn't even I don't think of myself as that 124 00:08:22,236 --> 00:08:25,036 Speaker 1: kind of person, like Jimmy's the one who cries at 125 00:08:25,036 --> 00:08:29,516 Speaker 1: Disney movies up Mulan the Lion King. Like I might 126 00:08:29,556 --> 00:08:32,196 Speaker 1: get a little, you know, teary eyed. But I was 127 00:08:32,236 --> 00:08:35,556 Speaker 1: so surprised, and I think it was we can cry 128 00:08:35,596 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 1: for lots of reasons, but I think it was it 129 00:08:38,476 --> 00:08:40,796 Speaker 1: was a combination of so many factors. I think one 130 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:45,356 Speaker 1: was profound relief that this moment was finally happening. You know, 131 00:08:45,436 --> 00:08:49,196 Speaker 1: it had been years in the making. To just see 132 00:08:49,196 --> 00:08:52,636 Speaker 1: it happening finally with like a real human Haley sitting 133 00:08:52,636 --> 00:08:56,516 Speaker 1: there like that was overwhelming for me. And then I 134 00:08:56,516 --> 00:08:58,556 Speaker 1: also just visualized her. I was like, oh, well, she 135 00:08:58,676 --> 00:09:00,996 Speaker 1: have thick, curly hair like me. You know, you just 136 00:09:01,036 --> 00:09:03,396 Speaker 1: have these images. I just imagined her with like you know, 137 00:09:03,436 --> 00:09:06,396 Speaker 1: I kind of had just a bunch of curls shooting 138 00:09:06,396 --> 00:09:08,516 Speaker 1: off my head when I was a kid, and they 139 00:09:08,516 --> 00:09:11,476 Speaker 1: had there was no orders, just randomness, um everywhere. Ilse 140 00:09:11,516 --> 00:09:13,436 Speaker 1: like I wonder if she'll have my you know, Shirley 141 00:09:13,476 --> 00:09:17,636 Speaker 1: Temple spiral curls um, but with like an ethnic twist, 142 00:09:17,676 --> 00:09:19,876 Speaker 1: because they're you know, kind of it's I have textured hair. 143 00:09:19,916 --> 00:09:26,316 Speaker 1: I will send them to you, um and so. And 144 00:09:26,356 --> 00:09:30,716 Speaker 1: I just remember holding Jimmy's hands so tightly, and um, 145 00:09:30,756 --> 00:09:33,076 Speaker 1: it was a beautiful moment. And you know, we left, 146 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:36,916 Speaker 1: and obviously we have nerves and whatnot. And you know, 147 00:09:36,956 --> 00:09:39,436 Speaker 1: the way that it works, you're supposed to wait until 148 00:09:39,476 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 1: ten days after to do the formal blood work, but 149 00:09:42,116 --> 00:09:44,756 Speaker 1: Haley wasn't going to wait, so she was going to 150 00:09:44,796 --> 00:09:48,676 Speaker 1: the store buying pregnancy tests. She proceeds to send us 151 00:09:48,676 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 1: images of all the pregnancy tests she's been taking over 152 00:09:51,356 --> 00:09:54,396 Speaker 1: the preceding days, of the line darkening and darkening and darkening, 153 00:09:55,276 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 1: and it's very positive. And she gets her blood test 154 00:09:58,836 --> 00:10:04,316 Speaker 1: done and we're having a baby girl, you know. And 155 00:10:04,396 --> 00:10:08,956 Speaker 1: so we're over the moon and we sign in by 156 00:10:09,236 --> 00:10:13,156 Speaker 1: video to that first ultrasound and we see her little 157 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:16,396 Speaker 1: heart beating, and in the same way that Haley was 158 00:10:16,436 --> 00:10:19,676 Speaker 1: perfect to us, that little embryo seemed freaking perfect to 159 00:10:19,756 --> 00:10:22,996 Speaker 1: us too, so cute and like the nurse said to 160 00:10:23,196 --> 00:10:27,036 Speaker 1: Haley and us, your little gals measuring perfectly. Her heart's 161 00:10:27,036 --> 00:10:32,436 Speaker 1: beating at a perfect rate. We're good, and so yeah, 162 00:10:32,436 --> 00:10:35,556 Speaker 1: we felt so relieved, you know, and we go home 163 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:40,436 Speaker 1: and it's so funny how these surrogacy pregnancies work. You know, 164 00:10:40,436 --> 00:10:41,956 Speaker 1: you want to be able to control things, so you 165 00:10:42,316 --> 00:10:45,076 Speaker 1: end up focusing on really small things like is her 166 00:10:45,116 --> 00:10:48,636 Speaker 1: a multi vitamin? Like the best version of the multi vitamin? 167 00:10:48,836 --> 00:10:51,836 Speaker 1: You know, Like how much folic acid is she getting? 168 00:10:51,916 --> 00:10:53,956 Speaker 1: You know, like you just start asking yourself all these 169 00:10:53,996 --> 00:10:58,316 Speaker 1: really small things. It's a it's like that Iceberg analogy. 170 00:10:58,556 --> 00:11:00,196 Speaker 1: You just see the tips. You focus on all those 171 00:11:00,236 --> 00:11:02,036 Speaker 1: things that you think are in your control, but underneath 172 00:11:02,036 --> 00:11:05,516 Speaker 1: the surface, there's a ton of stuff that's totally not 173 00:11:06,116 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 1: present to you, and it's totally out of your control. 174 00:11:08,396 --> 00:11:11,036 Speaker 1: And it's about thirty at night, and all of a sudden, 175 00:11:11,076 --> 00:11:14,076 Speaker 1: we get a text from Haley and she says, are 176 00:11:14,076 --> 00:11:18,836 Speaker 1: you guys up? And we immediately know something's wrong, because, like, 177 00:11:19,076 --> 00:11:22,476 Speaker 1: why is she texting us at eleven thirty her time? 178 00:11:22,556 --> 00:11:25,556 Speaker 1: Asking you for up? We call her and she says, 179 00:11:27,236 --> 00:11:30,556 Speaker 1: I just started bleeding profusely and I think I'm maybe 180 00:11:30,956 --> 00:11:35,196 Speaker 1: miscarrying and I'm not sure what's happening. And my heart 181 00:11:35,276 --> 00:11:37,716 Speaker 1: just sank and I was like, oh my god, how 182 00:11:37,796 --> 00:11:39,956 Speaker 1: is this possible. We just saw the baby a few 183 00:11:39,956 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 1: hours ago on the ultrasound, you know, looking super healthy 184 00:11:43,876 --> 00:11:47,196 Speaker 1: and happy, and Haley was healthy and happy. Like it 185 00:11:47,316 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 1: just felt like a tragedy, you know, And to go 186 00:11:49,716 --> 00:11:51,916 Speaker 1: from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows 187 00:11:51,916 --> 00:11:56,796 Speaker 1: within a six hour period, it just felt cruel. Sure enough, 188 00:11:56,796 --> 00:11:59,076 Speaker 1: she goes in the next morning for an ultrasound and 189 00:12:01,116 --> 00:12:05,676 Speaker 1: there's nothing there, you know, like there was something there 190 00:12:05,716 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 1: the day before, but there's nothing there today. That's what 191 00:12:08,556 --> 00:12:13,836 Speaker 1: they told us. So she had miscarried. And I will 192 00:12:13,876 --> 00:12:17,836 Speaker 1: tell you, the hardest part about a surrogacy journey is 193 00:12:17,836 --> 00:12:23,916 Speaker 1: that there's a third person grieving along with you. And 194 00:12:23,996 --> 00:12:27,116 Speaker 1: that's so excruciating. It's like, Jimmy and I felt like 195 00:12:27,156 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 1: we could manage our own pain, but to see someone 196 00:12:30,956 --> 00:12:35,036 Speaker 1: who who was so loving and only wanted to bring 197 00:12:35,116 --> 00:12:38,756 Speaker 1: us joy suffering and in pain and going through the 198 00:12:38,796 --> 00:12:42,556 Speaker 1: physical trauma of a miscarriage, like bleeding throughout the entire 199 00:12:42,676 --> 00:12:46,556 Speaker 1: night and horrible cramping and feeling nauseated and dizzy and 200 00:12:46,596 --> 00:12:50,956 Speaker 1: all the things. Like, it's so horrible. It's so horrible 201 00:12:50,956 --> 00:12:52,796 Speaker 1: to have a third person. And you know, in our 202 00:12:52,796 --> 00:12:57,836 Speaker 1: minds we're thinking, because guilt is an inevitable feeling all 203 00:12:58,116 --> 00:13:01,236 Speaker 1: on all sides. We're thinking to ourselves like we're the 204 00:13:01,276 --> 00:13:04,116 Speaker 1: reason Haley had her first miscarriage, you know, That's what 205 00:13:04,116 --> 00:13:08,236 Speaker 1: we're thinking. And Haley's probably thinking, oh, why did this happen? 206 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:11,236 Speaker 1: Like why why couldn't I make this work? And we're 207 00:13:11,276 --> 00:13:14,876 Speaker 1: all having these irrational thoughts that are not rooted in 208 00:13:15,956 --> 00:13:18,596 Speaker 1: real things, because you just want to find an explanation, 209 00:13:18,876 --> 00:13:22,476 Speaker 1: you know, you want to you want to blame someone, 210 00:13:22,716 --> 00:13:25,836 Speaker 1: and the easiest person to blame is yourself or who 211 00:13:25,836 --> 00:13:27,836 Speaker 1: else abody to blame the universe, like I don't, I don't, 212 00:13:27,876 --> 00:13:32,076 Speaker 1: you know, So I just wanted to blame myself for everything. 213 00:13:32,716 --> 00:13:36,196 Speaker 1: And so so that happens. And the reason why I 214 00:13:36,276 --> 00:13:39,396 Speaker 1: was so painful, Tyler, is that it happened the day 215 00:13:39,396 --> 00:13:43,556 Speaker 1: before we all entered quarantine in California, so we couldn't 216 00:13:43,596 --> 00:13:47,356 Speaker 1: even grieve with our close friends and family, like the 217 00:13:47,516 --> 00:13:50,396 Speaker 1: very small circle of people we had told about this pregnancy. 218 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:55,036 Speaker 1: And at this point were you were you thinking? I'm 219 00:13:55,076 --> 00:13:57,676 Speaker 1: sure you had actually many thoughts at this point, like 220 00:13:58,276 --> 00:14:01,876 Speaker 1: should we work together with Haley again or somebody else? 221 00:14:02,836 --> 00:14:06,716 Speaker 1: It's a great question. We so desperately wanted to work 222 00:14:06,716 --> 00:14:10,116 Speaker 1: with Haley, and we were hoping doctors would tell us 223 00:14:10,116 --> 00:14:12,636 Speaker 1: that we could, that it would make sense too. Unfortunately, 224 00:14:13,156 --> 00:14:16,116 Speaker 1: you know, they said, we have no reason to believe 225 00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:19,516 Speaker 1: anything really about this situation, like there's a lot of 226 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:22,956 Speaker 1: miscarriages at six weeks, and we were really concerned at 227 00:14:22,956 --> 00:14:24,956 Speaker 1: the time, like, well, Haley be down for this. She 228 00:14:25,076 --> 00:14:29,076 Speaker 1: just went through a traumatic experience and one that she 229 00:14:29,156 --> 00:14:32,236 Speaker 1: did not you know, you can sign up for this, 230 00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:34,276 Speaker 1: but like, do you really know what that's going to be, like, 231 00:14:34,436 --> 00:14:37,636 Speaker 1: you know, And so one thing that really touched our 232 00:14:37,676 --> 00:14:40,196 Speaker 1: hearts is when she said, I'm in this with you 233 00:14:40,276 --> 00:14:45,076 Speaker 1: until the end. I will do this until you become parents. 234 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:48,756 Speaker 1: And just to catch us up on the timeline, so 235 00:14:48,916 --> 00:14:53,276 Speaker 1: this is again March of twenty twenty exactly, and then 236 00:14:53,316 --> 00:14:56,236 Speaker 1: at some point you make a decision to try again 237 00:14:56,356 --> 00:14:59,516 Speaker 1: or you're able to try again. Yeah, so we all 238 00:14:59,516 --> 00:15:04,476 Speaker 1: get vaccinated, but we try again, and so she comes 239 00:15:04,476 --> 00:15:06,756 Speaker 1: out here and we go through the whole process again. 240 00:15:07,716 --> 00:15:13,076 Speaker 1: So this is u August of twenty twenty one. So 241 00:15:13,236 --> 00:15:15,636 Speaker 1: August twenty twenty one, Haley flies out here and we 242 00:15:15,716 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 1: just had a wonderful time because it was in some 243 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:20,916 Speaker 1: ways it was as though no time has passed, right 244 00:15:20,916 --> 00:15:22,516 Speaker 1: because we felt so close to her. But in other 245 00:15:22,556 --> 00:15:24,436 Speaker 1: ways it was as though so much time had passed, 246 00:15:24,476 --> 00:15:27,156 Speaker 1: because you could see changes in the depth of our 247 00:15:27,196 --> 00:15:31,276 Speaker 1: conversation and just how comfortable we felt with each other. 248 00:15:32,676 --> 00:15:35,796 Speaker 1: And so we go into the room and I can 249 00:15:35,836 --> 00:15:39,276 Speaker 1: already feel some of the light you know, PTSDE feelings 250 00:15:39,356 --> 00:15:42,556 Speaker 1: kicking in because this time when we're doing the ultrasound, 251 00:15:42,676 --> 00:15:45,236 Speaker 1: I don't cry to do the transfer. I mean, you know, 252 00:15:45,316 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 1: the embryo transfer. I'm just I'm holding my breath more 253 00:15:49,796 --> 00:15:51,836 Speaker 1: than I did the first time. Like I feel a 254 00:15:51,876 --> 00:15:55,956 Speaker 1: little anxious, you know, and you know, everyone's like, just 255 00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 1: stay positive, stay positive, stay positive. So I so we 256 00:15:58,756 --> 00:16:03,476 Speaker 1: stayed positive, and within two weeks we got those darkening 257 00:16:03,516 --> 00:16:07,636 Speaker 1: line pregnancy tests. I told her that, you know, her, 258 00:16:07,796 --> 00:16:09,916 Speaker 1: her hormone levels were super or high this time. So 259 00:16:09,956 --> 00:16:12,756 Speaker 1: I was like, Haley, you're pregnant AF. So that was 260 00:16:12,756 --> 00:16:15,916 Speaker 1: our that was our WhatsApp group names, Haley's pregnant AF. 261 00:16:19,676 --> 00:16:22,036 Speaker 1: We'll be right back to the slight change of plants. 262 00:16:33,276 --> 00:16:35,756 Speaker 1: When Jimmy and I found out that Haley was pregnant again, 263 00:16:36,076 --> 00:16:39,436 Speaker 1: we were ecstatic. We had transferred one embryo, and we 264 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:42,836 Speaker 1: felt so fortunate it had worked. Jimmy and I would 265 00:16:42,876 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 1: go for long walks together and start imagining what life 266 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:52,236 Speaker 1: would be like with our little Chinese Indian baby, and 267 00:16:52,316 --> 00:16:54,916 Speaker 1: we named her like Corina, that's going to be our name. 268 00:16:54,956 --> 00:17:01,116 Speaker 1: So as pregnant af with Karna shunker Lee and she's pregnant, 269 00:17:01,236 --> 00:17:06,396 Speaker 1: and like clockwork, on exactly the same day, Haley gets 270 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 1: morning sickness as she did the first pregnancy. Everything's going 271 00:17:10,116 --> 00:17:16,236 Speaker 1: super well, her levels are looking super strong, and I 272 00:17:16,396 --> 00:17:18,956 Speaker 1: just start I just start feeling anxious as the six 273 00:17:18,996 --> 00:17:22,836 Speaker 1: week mark approaches, because it feels very irrational. I'm like, 274 00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:24,836 Speaker 1: there's no reason at all to believe that if there's 275 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:27,396 Speaker 1: a miscarriage, it would happen, you know, at the six 276 00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:29,516 Speaker 1: week mark, right like it could happen at seven and 277 00:17:29,556 --> 00:17:32,556 Speaker 1: a half weeks, it could happen at you know, twenty weeks. 278 00:17:32,596 --> 00:17:35,396 Speaker 1: You just don't know in this process. So I felt 279 00:17:35,396 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 1: like I was getting irrationally anxious. So I kept trying 280 00:17:38,196 --> 00:17:40,156 Speaker 1: to talk myself off, to talk myself off the ledge 281 00:17:40,196 --> 00:17:41,956 Speaker 1: and be like, there's no reason to believe this would happen. 282 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 1: I'd said of an email address for Karina, and I'd 283 00:17:47,876 --> 00:17:50,196 Speaker 1: been sending her emails along the way about the pregnancy, 284 00:17:50,196 --> 00:17:53,196 Speaker 1: about Haley. It's like, hey, you know, hey little Karina, 285 00:17:53,476 --> 00:17:56,476 Speaker 1: it's mom. You know, here's an update. And I remember 286 00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:58,876 Speaker 1: I wrote to her the night before. I said, hey, um, 287 00:18:00,156 --> 00:18:04,516 Speaker 1: tomorrow is a really big milestone for us, because if 288 00:18:04,516 --> 00:18:07,116 Speaker 1: we get through it, like it's it's one day more, 289 00:18:07,556 --> 00:18:09,076 Speaker 1: you know that next day, it's a one day more 290 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:11,476 Speaker 1: than the last pregnancy, and I just feel like I'll 291 00:18:11,476 --> 00:18:18,956 Speaker 1: feel some relief. It's Tuesday morning. I wake up and 292 00:18:19,076 --> 00:18:20,916 Speaker 1: I have relief because I look at my phone and 293 00:18:20,956 --> 00:18:23,916 Speaker 1: I'm like, there's no message from her saying that she 294 00:18:24,036 --> 00:18:28,636 Speaker 1: bled overnight. And then she texts us saying, you know, 295 00:18:28,756 --> 00:18:30,556 Speaker 1: I was a little scared this morning because I woke 296 00:18:30,636 --> 00:18:34,196 Speaker 1: up not feeling morning sickness. She had had other days 297 00:18:34,236 --> 00:18:38,796 Speaker 1: like that, so it wasn't immediately alarming. And then at 298 00:18:38,796 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 1: ten thirty am, I get a message from her and 299 00:18:41,356 --> 00:18:45,396 Speaker 1: she says I just had a gush of blood and 300 00:18:45,476 --> 00:18:48,036 Speaker 1: my heart sank. I was like, you have got to 301 00:18:48,076 --> 00:18:51,916 Speaker 1: be kidding me, How is this happening again, like on 302 00:18:52,076 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 1: exactly the same day as last time, Like it just 303 00:18:55,036 --> 00:18:57,516 Speaker 1: it didn't make any sense, and so we called the 304 00:18:57,596 --> 00:19:01,516 Speaker 1: doctor and they they're like, Okay, it could be a miscarriage. However, 305 00:19:01,596 --> 00:19:03,756 Speaker 1: it could be another thing. It could be a hematoma. Right, 306 00:19:03,916 --> 00:19:06,076 Speaker 1: it could be that there's some blood pooling in that 307 00:19:06,156 --> 00:19:08,636 Speaker 1: area and it just needs to get out. Why don't 308 00:19:08,676 --> 00:19:11,516 Speaker 1: we have her go get an ultrasound. And so, even 309 00:19:11,516 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 1: though she's like actively bleeding, she goes to get this ultrasound, 310 00:19:14,756 --> 00:19:20,236 Speaker 1: and we're expecting the worst. I mean, I'm an optimist, 311 00:19:20,316 --> 00:19:24,276 Speaker 1: so of course, until you tell me like, no, there's 312 00:19:24,276 --> 00:19:26,036 Speaker 1: nothing there, I'm always going to hope. I'm always going 313 00:19:26,076 --> 00:19:27,916 Speaker 1: to hold on to that shred. I think Jimmy at 314 00:19:27,956 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 1: this point had just given up. He was like, Maya, 315 00:19:30,076 --> 00:19:34,916 Speaker 1: all hope is lost. And this incredibly kind doctor is 316 00:19:34,916 --> 00:19:38,476 Speaker 1: on the call and he's doing the ultrasound. He's like, 317 00:19:38,996 --> 00:19:42,316 Speaker 1: there's your baby, and her heart beats perfect one hundred 318 00:19:42,316 --> 00:19:45,876 Speaker 1: and sixty. She's measuring exactly as she should at six weeks, 319 00:19:46,836 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 1: and oh, my gother is that hematoma? Like there is 320 00:19:49,916 --> 00:19:53,396 Speaker 1: this blood pool and so that does explain the bleeding. Like, 321 00:19:53,436 --> 00:19:57,356 Speaker 1: you guys are good, And I was just sobbing, like 322 00:19:57,396 --> 00:20:01,156 Speaker 1: the relief that I felt. Oh my gosh, there's an explanation, 323 00:20:01,756 --> 00:20:04,436 Speaker 1: and our baby is looking great and we're going to 324 00:20:04,516 --> 00:20:07,636 Speaker 1: have this child. And then he goes over the area 325 00:20:07,716 --> 00:20:11,196 Speaker 1: again and he goes, oh my god, there's another one. 326 00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:17,236 Speaker 1: You guys are having twins, and that one's also perfect. 327 00:20:18,396 --> 00:20:21,436 Speaker 1: That one has a beautiful heartbeat and is measuring great. 328 00:20:23,236 --> 00:20:27,436 Speaker 1: You guys are having twins. And Haley was so happy. 329 00:20:27,516 --> 00:20:30,476 Speaker 1: And I remember in that moment I said to her, 330 00:20:30,516 --> 00:20:33,796 Speaker 1: I said, look, I'm grateful for one or two. I don't. 331 00:20:34,076 --> 00:20:36,676 Speaker 1: I don't. I didn't need to. I just just wanted one, 332 00:20:36,956 --> 00:20:39,476 Speaker 1: you know. But what matters to me most is that 333 00:20:39,516 --> 00:20:42,356 Speaker 1: it's with you. That's what I just kept saying. I 334 00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:44,076 Speaker 1: was like, I wanted this to be with Haley. I 335 00:20:44,116 --> 00:20:45,756 Speaker 1: wanted this to be with Haley, and it's with you, 336 00:20:45,796 --> 00:20:49,516 Speaker 1: and we get to do this journey with you. And 337 00:20:50,156 --> 00:20:51,676 Speaker 1: Jimmy and I take a walk. At this point of 338 00:20:51,716 --> 00:20:53,396 Speaker 1: the day, we're like, let's just get some fresh air. 339 00:20:53,436 --> 00:20:56,596 Speaker 1: And now we're planning our life with twins. We're thinking 340 00:20:56,636 --> 00:20:58,596 Speaker 1: to ourselves, we need to buy a home. There should 341 00:20:58,636 --> 00:21:01,996 Speaker 1: be like many bedrooms, and how are we going to 342 00:21:02,156 --> 00:21:04,476 Speaker 1: care for twins? And we start thinking about a second, 343 00:21:04,516 --> 00:21:05,996 Speaker 1: you know, Haley and said, I guess it's time to 344 00:21:05,996 --> 00:21:08,036 Speaker 1: start thinking of another names. So we're like, what goes 345 00:21:08,076 --> 00:21:11,436 Speaker 1: well with Karina? And we to start brainstorming, and we 346 00:21:11,476 --> 00:21:13,796 Speaker 1: have this walk and it's just like we're floating on air, 347 00:21:14,036 --> 00:21:16,876 Speaker 1: you know it. We can't wait to tell the people 348 00:21:16,876 --> 00:21:19,236 Speaker 1: who we've told that she's miscarried too, that it's actually 349 00:21:19,236 --> 00:21:21,476 Speaker 1: the opposite. And you're not even just getting one. We're 350 00:21:21,516 --> 00:21:28,236 Speaker 1: getting too. So I go back home and I text 351 00:21:28,276 --> 00:21:31,116 Speaker 1: Hailey and I say, you know, I deleted the what 352 00:21:31,196 --> 00:21:33,636 Speaker 1: to Expect AFT on my phone this morning when I 353 00:21:33,676 --> 00:21:35,556 Speaker 1: got the news about the blood because I didn't want 354 00:21:35,556 --> 00:21:36,876 Speaker 1: to get my hopes up and I just wanted it. 355 00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:39,836 Speaker 1: I wanted to remove all evidence of that of my phone, 356 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:43,516 Speaker 1: and I said maybe I should reinstall it. And her 357 00:21:43,516 --> 00:21:51,436 Speaker 1: response was, guys, the thing that I've been bleeding out recently, 358 00:21:51,596 --> 00:21:58,956 Speaker 1: Like it's it's not blood. And she takes a picture 359 00:21:58,996 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 1: of it and we send it to our doctor and 360 00:22:02,036 --> 00:22:04,956 Speaker 1: our doctor calls us or like could this be anything? 361 00:22:04,996 --> 00:22:10,076 Speaker 1: Could this be? Like? What is this? You know? Jimmy 362 00:22:10,156 --> 00:22:13,276 Speaker 1: studied biology in college. He's like, my May that's his 363 00:22:13,356 --> 00:22:14,876 Speaker 1: nickname for me. He's like, my, this is not a 364 00:22:14,876 --> 00:22:18,756 Speaker 1: blood clot. I'm so sorry, and when the doctor looked 365 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:20,956 Speaker 1: at it, I just remember I heard I heard the 366 00:22:21,036 --> 00:22:23,716 Speaker 1: sound in her voice. She's like, you know you could 367 00:22:23,716 --> 00:22:25,836 Speaker 1: hear it, like I knew the answer before she said it. 368 00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:28,476 Speaker 1: She goes, I'm just so sorry, guys. I can't believe 369 00:22:28,476 --> 00:22:37,396 Speaker 1: this has happened. And it's hard to describe what that 370 00:22:37,436 --> 00:22:40,516 Speaker 1: feels like. I wanted to throw up. I felt totally 371 00:22:41,036 --> 00:22:48,796 Speaker 1: nauseated and disoriented. I felt so sad that Haley was suffering. 372 00:22:48,836 --> 00:22:51,356 Speaker 1: I felt so sad she was going through this trauma again. 373 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:57,116 Speaker 1: And it was confirmed by ultrasound that there was nothing 374 00:22:57,876 --> 00:23:03,836 Speaker 1: there anymore the next morning. And the hardest part of 375 00:23:03,836 --> 00:23:08,516 Speaker 1: this process was learning that our embryos were actually great, 376 00:23:08,796 --> 00:23:13,276 Speaker 1: and Ally was great, but very likely there's some sort 377 00:23:13,316 --> 00:23:18,996 Speaker 1: of incompatibility between our biologies. The doctor's best guest right 378 00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:22,876 Speaker 1: now is that her immune system sees our embryos as 379 00:23:22,916 --> 00:23:26,596 Speaker 1: foreign in some way. I asked my doctor, I said, 380 00:23:26,996 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 1: have you ever seen this before? And she said no, 381 00:23:29,156 --> 00:23:34,476 Speaker 1: and I think there's a bizarre immune response happening here. 382 00:23:35,516 --> 00:23:37,756 Speaker 1: And what that meant is we can't work with her anymore. 383 00:23:39,356 --> 00:23:41,116 Speaker 1: She said to me this morning, she goes, it is 384 00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:44,596 Speaker 1: so cruel that a relationship that is so compatible is 385 00:23:44,636 --> 00:23:50,116 Speaker 1: biologically incompatible and you just can't fight biology. What are 386 00:23:50,116 --> 00:23:52,436 Speaker 1: you going to do? You know, the doctors are like, 387 00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 1: this would probably happen again, and we can't put you 388 00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:57,876 Speaker 1: guys through that. You can't put yourself through that. You 389 00:23:57,956 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 1: just have to find another surrogate. And what's again astonishing 390 00:24:02,316 --> 00:24:04,796 Speaker 1: to us is like Haley was willing to try again 391 00:24:05,156 --> 00:24:07,596 Speaker 1: with us and again and again, because that's the kind 392 00:24:07,596 --> 00:24:11,276 Speaker 1: of person she is. And I'm just overwhelmed still that 393 00:24:11,476 --> 00:24:16,636 Speaker 1: someone would go through this, go through this pain because 394 00:24:16,676 --> 00:24:21,236 Speaker 1: she's so eager to make us happy. It's an incredible gift. 395 00:24:21,276 --> 00:24:24,436 Speaker 1: I've never met anybody like her in my life. I 396 00:24:24,556 --> 00:24:28,676 Speaker 1: probably never will. Yeah, so I'm hearing you tell this story. 397 00:24:28,716 --> 00:24:32,796 Speaker 1: I just want to acknowledge that it is incredibly harrowing 398 00:24:33,236 --> 00:24:37,356 Speaker 1: and what you've gone through over the last few days 399 00:24:37,396 --> 00:24:46,956 Speaker 1: is horrible, and yeah, I am so sorry. Thank you. 400 00:24:46,956 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 1: You know, I'm also struck by the fact that you 401 00:24:52,596 --> 00:24:58,076 Speaker 1: have gone through this experience twice now, and that the 402 00:24:58,116 --> 00:25:02,436 Speaker 1: first time that Hailey miscarried was back in March of 403 00:25:02,476 --> 00:25:06,836 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, when COVID was beginning for all of us 404 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:10,236 Speaker 1: and I just remember that the world was sort of 405 00:25:10,636 --> 00:25:14,516 Speaker 1: changing overnight for many of us, and then on top 406 00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:19,156 Speaker 1: of that change, you had this other incredible loss, And 407 00:25:20,236 --> 00:25:25,996 Speaker 1: I'm curious, what was that experience? Like, it was really hard, 408 00:25:27,036 --> 00:25:34,676 Speaker 1: it's very lonely, it's very isolating. You feel like people 409 00:25:34,716 --> 00:25:39,236 Speaker 1: can intellectualize it, but also maybe not just fully understand 410 00:25:39,276 --> 00:25:42,556 Speaker 1: the emotions behind it, because I didn't fully understand the 411 00:25:42,596 --> 00:25:47,236 Speaker 1: emotions behind it until I went through it myself. I 412 00:25:47,276 --> 00:25:52,476 Speaker 1: just didn't. It built my empathy so much. And the 413 00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:57,876 Speaker 1: way that I dealt with it, Tyler was I was like, 414 00:25:57,916 --> 00:26:00,836 Speaker 1: I have to make something good out of this. And 415 00:26:00,876 --> 00:26:04,716 Speaker 1: then it's funny to think back. I've just forgotten about 416 00:26:04,756 --> 00:26:07,516 Speaker 1: this until you mentioned it, Like I thought of this 417 00:26:07,556 --> 00:26:11,236 Speaker 1: podcast idea called a Slight Change to Plans, and it 418 00:26:11,356 --> 00:26:14,436 Speaker 1: was a grief project for me. It was my way 419 00:26:14,596 --> 00:26:20,876 Speaker 1: of trying to find meaning and answers in a situation 420 00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:24,316 Speaker 1: that I couldn't find meaning and answers in and I 421 00:26:24,356 --> 00:26:28,476 Speaker 1: didn't know how to navigate the change that was happening 422 00:26:28,476 --> 00:26:31,276 Speaker 1: in my life. I didn't know how to navigate the miscarriage. 423 00:26:31,276 --> 00:26:33,276 Speaker 1: I didn't know how to navigate COVID, I didn't know 424 00:26:33,316 --> 00:26:35,956 Speaker 1: how to navigate all the loss that was happening in 425 00:26:35,996 --> 00:26:38,396 Speaker 1: the world. I didn't know how to navigate the racial injustice. 426 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:44,556 Speaker 1: I felt completely overwhelmed, and I just thought to myself, 427 00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:46,836 Speaker 1: I know that I'm not alone in not knowing how 428 00:26:46,876 --> 00:26:52,836 Speaker 1: to navigate this moment. I know that there is a 429 00:26:52,836 --> 00:26:56,276 Speaker 1: treasure trove of wisdom out there on how to navigate change, 430 00:26:56,396 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 1: especially unwanted, unexpected change, and it's just a matter of 431 00:27:00,076 --> 00:27:05,756 Speaker 1: finding those stories and learning from them. And that's what 432 00:27:05,836 --> 00:27:08,756 Speaker 1: led me to build the show. It came out of 433 00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:12,236 Speaker 1: a personal desire her to understand how it is that 434 00:27:12,276 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 1: people navigate change and to learn from them, because you know, 435 00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:19,156 Speaker 1: I'm a scientist, right, a cognitive scientist. I study how 436 00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:22,596 Speaker 1: the mind works, I study change. I know the science, 437 00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:25,436 Speaker 1: but the science was falling short for me, and I 438 00:27:25,476 --> 00:27:27,956 Speaker 1: felt like I needed to hear people's stories and I 439 00:27:27,996 --> 00:27:31,476 Speaker 1: needed to emotionally connect with people. It strikes me as 440 00:27:31,556 --> 00:27:33,796 Speaker 1: I think I knew that, but I'm just hearing it 441 00:27:33,836 --> 00:27:37,876 Speaker 1: for the first time, that this was your grief process, Right, 442 00:27:37,996 --> 00:27:40,716 Speaker 1: I'm saying that correctly, Like this was how, in a way, 443 00:27:40,756 --> 00:27:43,676 Speaker 1: how you grieved, Right? Yeah, I don't, and I don't 444 00:27:43,716 --> 00:27:46,716 Speaker 1: think I really made the connection fully until this moment 445 00:27:46,756 --> 00:27:54,316 Speaker 1: where everyone grieves differently, you know, like I was. I 446 00:27:54,356 --> 00:27:56,876 Speaker 1: was talking to Michael Lewis after the tragic passing of 447 00:27:56,916 --> 00:28:00,116 Speaker 1: his daughter, and he said, Maya, no one knows shit 448 00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:04,036 Speaker 1: about grief. Everyone's telling me how to feel, everyone's telling 449 00:28:04,076 --> 00:28:05,916 Speaker 1: me what book to read. Everyone's telling me to do 450 00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:08,636 Speaker 1: this and see this therapist and talk about No. I 451 00:28:08,676 --> 00:28:11,836 Speaker 1: need to the Michael Lewis plan how I grieve. And 452 00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:15,196 Speaker 1: he's so freaking right about that, Like there is no 453 00:28:15,236 --> 00:28:19,316 Speaker 1: one size fits all recipe for how to grieve. There's 454 00:28:19,356 --> 00:28:21,796 Speaker 1: no one size fits all recipe for how to change, 455 00:28:21,916 --> 00:28:26,516 Speaker 1: how to deal with change. And that's a sobering realization. 456 00:28:26,596 --> 00:28:29,556 Speaker 1: When you're in the throes of grief, you just want answers, 457 00:28:29,596 --> 00:28:32,196 Speaker 1: you want a solution set, and you can't get it. 458 00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:36,716 Speaker 1: And so what you do instead is realize, well, I 459 00:28:36,716 --> 00:28:38,476 Speaker 1: have to find I have to create a Maya plan. 460 00:28:38,796 --> 00:28:43,236 Speaker 1: And I do my best when I'm active and I 461 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:46,796 Speaker 1: throw myself into passion projects when I'm in a bad place. 462 00:28:46,876 --> 00:28:49,796 Speaker 1: Like that is. Everyone has their own recipe, but for me, 463 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:52,716 Speaker 1: that is how I heal to process out loud, to 464 00:28:52,796 --> 00:28:55,676 Speaker 1: be open with people, to throw myselves into creative projects 465 00:28:55,676 --> 00:29:01,676 Speaker 1: that can hopefully help people and make people feel stronger. So, Maya, 466 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:05,156 Speaker 1: We've been talking for the last couple of days, and 467 00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:08,356 Speaker 1: it might be too soon to answer this question, but 468 00:29:08,476 --> 00:29:12,156 Speaker 1: I'm curious to know what you've learned about yourself from 469 00:29:12,316 --> 00:29:17,636 Speaker 1: from all of this, I learned that I'm really bad 470 00:29:17,676 --> 00:29:23,676 Speaker 1: at acceptance. I always want to justify things. I always 471 00:29:23,716 --> 00:29:28,516 Speaker 1: want to resist the randomness in our world that I 472 00:29:28,596 --> 00:29:30,916 Speaker 1: know is just randomness. You know. I don't. I don't 473 00:29:30,956 --> 00:29:35,276 Speaker 1: have religious or spiritual beliefs that that help guide me 474 00:29:35,356 --> 00:29:39,436 Speaker 1: through these situations. I do just believe in people having 475 00:29:39,476 --> 00:29:44,476 Speaker 1: bad fortunes in life, you know. But I'm bad at acceptance, 476 00:29:44,516 --> 00:29:46,596 Speaker 1: which means I tap into a very natural part of 477 00:29:46,596 --> 00:29:50,916 Speaker 1: my psychology, which is to tell stories, to try to 478 00:29:50,996 --> 00:29:53,636 Speaker 1: make sense of this, to try to find find something 479 00:29:53,716 --> 00:29:57,276 Speaker 1: good that can emerge from this experience. It's one of 480 00:29:57,276 --> 00:30:00,436 Speaker 1: the reasons I'm talking with you today because I need 481 00:30:00,516 --> 00:30:03,836 Speaker 1: something good to come from this. And if one listener 482 00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:09,356 Speaker 1: hears this and feels that they're not alone, and that 483 00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:12,876 Speaker 1: is a silver lining. I want everyone to know that 484 00:30:12,916 --> 00:30:17,676 Speaker 1: my husband and I went through this, because the more 485 00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:19,716 Speaker 1: we talk about it, the more we can support one another. 486 00:30:22,716 --> 00:30:29,916 Speaker 1: I think what I learned is you don't as a person, 487 00:30:29,956 --> 00:30:34,276 Speaker 1: you don't even grieve the same way every time I'm grieving. 488 00:30:34,396 --> 00:30:38,116 Speaker 1: I don't know yet all the ways, but I feel 489 00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:42,476 Speaker 1: like I'm grieving the loss of these twins differently than 490 00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:46,916 Speaker 1: I did the loss we had last year. It feels 491 00:30:47,156 --> 00:30:56,396 Speaker 1: very different, and in some ways, in some ways, it 492 00:30:56,476 --> 00:31:02,556 Speaker 1: feels strangely easier because I feel stronger because I know 493 00:31:02,676 --> 00:31:06,156 Speaker 1: that I've known, I know that I've done this before 494 00:31:07,116 --> 00:31:11,476 Speaker 1: and I did make it out the other end. And 495 00:31:11,556 --> 00:31:13,916 Speaker 1: maybe that's the hope I can give to listeners, like 496 00:31:16,916 --> 00:31:20,156 Speaker 1: these experiences can make you stronger. You can learn how 497 00:31:20,196 --> 00:31:24,156 Speaker 1: to you can learn what helps you build resilience in 498 00:31:24,196 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 1: your life along the way, and you can try to 499 00:31:26,196 --> 00:31:29,956 Speaker 1: do that. What would you say to Haley in this 500 00:31:30,076 --> 00:31:37,756 Speaker 1: moment that I love her and life works in really 501 00:31:37,756 --> 00:31:40,156 Speaker 1: interesting ways. You don't know the kinds of people that 502 00:31:40,196 --> 00:31:45,596 Speaker 1: you'll meet and how they'll touch you. So it's a gift. 503 00:31:45,756 --> 00:31:47,596 Speaker 1: It's a gift that we got to know her. That's 504 00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:50,756 Speaker 1: why I that's why the regret part of my brain 505 00:31:50,876 --> 00:31:53,076 Speaker 1: has just kind of turned off, because I'm like, wait, 506 00:31:53,796 --> 00:31:55,796 Speaker 1: if we hadn't gone through this experience, we wouldn't have 507 00:31:55,836 --> 00:31:58,916 Speaker 1: met this wonderful human being, and like that counts too 508 00:31:59,276 --> 00:32:02,716 Speaker 1: in life, right, we should be putting weight on that too, 509 00:32:03,196 --> 00:32:05,476 Speaker 1: humans who come into our lives and enrich our lives, 510 00:32:05,556 --> 00:32:08,436 Speaker 1: Like life is not just about achieving a series of outcomes, 511 00:32:08,476 --> 00:32:13,516 Speaker 1: it's also getting in and creating space for unexpected, beautiful gifts. 512 00:32:13,596 --> 00:32:17,276 Speaker 1: And I think that's how we feel with her. I 513 00:32:17,396 --> 00:32:21,276 Speaker 1: have such a deep appreciation for you sharing this story today, 514 00:32:21,316 --> 00:32:25,156 Speaker 1: and I think that in you being so open, it 515 00:32:25,356 --> 00:32:28,676 Speaker 1: is really going to help a lot of people. And 516 00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:31,516 Speaker 1: I just want to give you a chance. Is there 517 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:35,276 Speaker 1: anything else that you'd like to share? I mean, I 518 00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:43,156 Speaker 1: guess one thing i'd share is I feel closed off 519 00:32:43,236 --> 00:32:46,116 Speaker 1: right now about the idea of a new surrogate entering 520 00:32:46,116 --> 00:32:50,116 Speaker 1: our lives. So fascinating how these bonds form, but it 521 00:32:50,156 --> 00:32:52,956 Speaker 1: almost feels like a betrayal, like how could I do 522 00:32:52,996 --> 00:32:55,236 Speaker 1: this to Haley? Like how could how could we have 523 00:32:55,316 --> 00:32:59,276 Speaker 1: somebody else? And obviously she was saying like, you guys 524 00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:02,036 Speaker 1: deserve a child so much, and you know she would 525 00:33:02,036 --> 00:33:07,676 Speaker 1: only ever be so supportive of our next steps, But 526 00:33:07,796 --> 00:33:09,916 Speaker 1: instinctively I'm like, oh, I don't want to get close 527 00:33:09,956 --> 00:33:13,116 Speaker 1: to them. I don't want to have my heartbroken again. 528 00:33:13,276 --> 00:33:17,076 Speaker 1: I want distance, like I can feel my protective defense 529 00:33:17,116 --> 00:33:20,956 Speaker 1: mechanisms kind of in high alert. And I talked to 530 00:33:22,716 --> 00:33:26,556 Speaker 1: our agency, our surrogacy agency folks, and they've been amazing, 531 00:33:27,956 --> 00:33:32,316 Speaker 1: And none of them said to me, you know, your 532 00:33:32,836 --> 00:33:39,876 Speaker 1: future surrogate deserves your most loving self. That had an 533 00:33:39,876 --> 00:33:46,556 Speaker 1: impact on me. She does deserve it, and it wouldn't 534 00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:49,716 Speaker 1: be right to shield her from the love and gratitude 535 00:33:49,716 --> 00:33:52,236 Speaker 1: that I feel. So that means that I just need 536 00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:54,516 Speaker 1: to put an effort in hard work to get to 537 00:33:54,556 --> 00:33:57,916 Speaker 1: a point where I can open myself up again before 538 00:33:58,116 --> 00:34:02,756 Speaker 1: embarking on this journey again, because she deserves to have 539 00:34:02,916 --> 00:34:06,636 Speaker 1: all of Jimmy and me and all of our openness 540 00:34:06,636 --> 00:34:09,916 Speaker 1: and all of our love. And so I guess as 541 00:34:09,956 --> 00:34:12,156 Speaker 1: I look at next steps, that's my first next step, 542 00:34:12,516 --> 00:34:15,796 Speaker 1: before any of the logistics. It's like figuring out how 543 00:34:15,836 --> 00:34:40,516 Speaker 1: to feel hopeful and open again. Join me. Next week, 544 00:34:40,516 --> 00:34:44,116 Speaker 1: when I talked to Oscar nominated actor Riz Akhmed, we 545 00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:46,556 Speaker 1: talk about how finally playing a role based on his 546 00:34:46,636 --> 00:34:51,036 Speaker 1: own life has changed his understanding of himself, the one 547 00:34:51,116 --> 00:34:52,996 Speaker 1: role I never get to play as someone like myself. 548 00:34:54,396 --> 00:34:57,716 Speaker 1: I realized that up until his point. As an actor, 549 00:34:57,876 --> 00:35:03,716 Speaker 1: I'd become adept to molding mosques and wearing them for 550 00:35:03,796 --> 00:35:08,436 Speaker 1: other people and representing other people, and realize that actually 551 00:35:08,716 --> 00:35:11,476 Speaker 1: the next stage of growth is about not molding and 552 00:35:11,516 --> 00:35:24,836 Speaker 1: wearing moss, but taking them off. A Slight Change of 553 00:35:24,876 --> 00:35:28,916 Speaker 1: Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. 554 00:35:29,596 --> 00:35:31,876 Speaker 1: The best part of creating this show is getting to 555 00:35:31,916 --> 00:35:36,796 Speaker 1: collaborate with my formidable Slight Change family. This includes Tyler Greene, 556 00:35:36,916 --> 00:35:40,996 Speaker 1: our senior producer, whose unrivaled empathy and kindness made this 557 00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:45,316 Speaker 1: episode possible. Jen Guera, our senior editor, who brings so 558 00:35:45,436 --> 00:35:48,356 Speaker 1: much heart and conscientiousness to her work on the show. 559 00:35:49,036 --> 00:35:53,516 Speaker 1: Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rosteck our associate producer, 560 00:35:53,796 --> 00:35:58,316 Speaker 1: and Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louise Scara wrote our 561 00:35:58,396 --> 00:36:01,796 Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 562 00:36:02,716 --> 00:36:05,916 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 563 00:36:06,036 --> 00:36:09,956 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there. I'd like to extend 564 00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:13,396 Speaker 1: my heartfelt thanks to Haley, my dear friend, for her 565 00:36:13,396 --> 00:36:15,956 Speaker 1: openness and having me share our story with all of you. 566 00:36:16,756 --> 00:36:20,556 Speaker 1: Our Fertility Clinic for their compassion and support during our experience, 567 00:36:21,236 --> 00:36:25,476 Speaker 1: and to Michael Lewis for his friendship and advice, and 568 00:36:25,596 --> 00:36:29,716 Speaker 1: of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You 569 00:36:29,756 --> 00:36:32,556 Speaker 1: can follow a slight change of plans on Instagram at 570 00:36:32,636 --> 00:36:36,676 Speaker 1: doctor Maya Shunker and please remember to subscribe, share, and 571 00:36:36,756 --> 00:36:39,556 Speaker 1: rate the show to help get the word outlet see 572 00:36:39,556 --> 00:36:49,676 Speaker 1: you next week. So spoiler alert, Jimmy and I are 573 00:36:49,716 --> 00:36:53,156 Speaker 1: not chill people about this sort of thing, right, the 574 00:36:53,196 --> 00:36:57,116 Speaker 1: health of our future baby. Like Haley was telling us 575 00:36:57,236 --> 00:37:01,436 Speaker 1: that she came home on a Saturday and unbannounced to 576 00:37:01,516 --> 00:37:06,236 Speaker 1: her her husband had bought a bunny Oscar. Okay, now, 577 00:37:07,196 --> 00:37:09,556 Speaker 1: typically this would just be like a you know, Hailey's 578 00:37:09,596 --> 00:37:11,516 Speaker 1: my friend. I'm like, oh my god, that's so much fun. 579 00:37:11,596 --> 00:37:14,556 Speaker 1: You guys have a funny send me pictures, you know, 580 00:37:14,636 --> 00:37:16,756 Speaker 1: how do you decide on the name Oscar? Right, that's 581 00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:20,316 Speaker 1: a normal conversation. And instantly Jimmy and I are like, 582 00:37:21,076 --> 00:37:24,516 Speaker 1: is this a pregnancy hazard? And we go down, We 583 00:37:24,556 --> 00:37:28,116 Speaker 1: go down a rabbit hole, no fun of doing research 584 00:37:28,236 --> 00:37:31,116 Speaker 1: on like pub med and like, are there any viruses 585 00:37:31,116 --> 00:37:34,356 Speaker 1: that rabbits carry that can potentially be transmitted to humans? 586 00:37:34,596 --> 00:37:36,996 Speaker 1: And I just remember there was this moment where Jimmy 587 00:37:37,116 --> 00:37:41,716 Speaker 1: turned over to me and moves his laptop so I 588 00:37:41,716 --> 00:37:44,236 Speaker 1: can see what he's looking at, and it's like he's 589 00:37:44,276 --> 00:37:47,236 Speaker 1: at like rabbit weelfare dot co dot uk looking at 590 00:37:47,276 --> 00:37:50,196 Speaker 1: health facts, and he looked at me and he's like, my, 591 00:37:51,356 --> 00:37:52,716 Speaker 1: I never thought it would come to this.