WEBVTT - Interrogate Your Feelings 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.600 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok a F Daily 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:19.040 with me your Girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Brooklyn Bunker. 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:25.959 Happy Valentine's Day, Dear friends, m Valentine's Day, let me 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:29.720 be honest with you, is not a hallmark holiday that 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:34.320 I have ever really celebrated, even when I was married, 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:39.640 when I'm single, because one, I think it's a capitalistic 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.440 ploy but two, I think that the idea that we're 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:48.839 only supposed to spend one day dedicated to those loving 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:54.240 relationships that we have is just foolish. And so I 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:59.400 say all that to say that what woke AF is 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:04.440 and what I'm hoping woke F becomes and expands into, 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.640 is a conversation about how we live more consciously, how 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:13.240 we love more consciously, both ourselves and in the relationships 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:15.600 that we have with the people around us, whether they 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:21.200 be platonic or intimate relationships or romantically intimate relationships. Because, 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.360 as you will see in my conversation with our returning 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.319 guest and friend, doctor Jen M. Jackson, who is the 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.039 co host of the podcast of That Black Couple and 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.880 a writer and abolitionist and a columnist with That Teen Vogue, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:40.400 we will discuss that all relationships are intimate, and that 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:45.200 we really need to understand our relationship to attachment right 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:51.400 and our relationship to ourselves. If we are to have healthy, happy, 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:57.160 whole relationships, they only start from being healthy, happy and 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.360 whole with ourselves. So we get in to really great, 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:06.520 juicy conversation about love, what it means to love in 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.440 the midst of a pandemic, what it means to have 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:15.160 different relationship styles exist within one or multiple relationships, and 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.920 how we navigate our truth and how we come to 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.440 the table with that truth. So I hope, folks, that 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.280 you will take this entire episode as a woke moment 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.920 of wellness, as a check in right with yourself. We 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.960 will talk about that as well. Are we checking in? 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:36.639 Are we interrogating our feelings? Are we checking in with 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.080 the partners that we have the relationships that we have 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:47.000 on a regular basis. Right relationships, regardless of again how 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:53.320 they stand in your life, require regular check in, regular conversation. 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.320 We're not the same person that we were at the beginning, 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.560 the middle, or at the end, and so it's important 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:06.120 to have those moments of solo reflection and group reflection 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.399 so that we're creating the type of dynamic that allows 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.520 us to be our most authentic, true, and vulnerable selves. 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:18.359 So I hope, dear friends, on this Valentine's Day, that 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.200 you can get into and enjoy the conversation with our friend, 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:29.960 doctor Jen M. Jackson. Folks, I am very happy to 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:34.760 welcome back to woke a f which doctor Jen Jackson. 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.800 I think that this is your third time. Oh, I'm 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:43.360 so excited. Third time is a charm our, friend, abolitionist, writer, 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:48.040 columnists at teen Vogue, and the co host of That 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.920 Black That Black Couple podcast. Folks, doctor at Jen M. Jackson, 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:57.240 thank you for making time to join us on this day, 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:03.240 which is Valentine's Day, right where people have a lot 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:08.400 of people have a complicated relationship to this very much 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:13.480 manufactured Hallmark holiday that tells us that this is the 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.359 day for love. So apparently the other three hundred and 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.960 sixty four days. I guess we don't have to really care. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:25.640 Nobody's expecting cards, candy or date nights. But I think 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.000 that it's important for us, particularly in this time, still 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:33.240 living in this global health pandemic, still living in this 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:38.040 time of I don't know, racial reckoning, white supremacists on crack. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:42.120 I have no idea but to marinate on love, on 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:45.560 something different for a change, And so I want to 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:51.040 open up our conversation today with you know, what are 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:55.359 some of the challenges I guess that you have seen 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:03.600 over the last two years, right of cohabitating? Uh, you 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.640 know everyone, well not everyone, those of us that are 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.560 privileged enough to work from home are working from home, UM, 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:14.480 cohabitating and trying to keep our sanity but keep our 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:19.560 love relationships intact. What has what have you seen? What 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:23.440 have you heard? UM as you navigate this this crazy 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:28.200 space that we're in. Yeah, I mean it's really excuse me, 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.000 it's really complex, right. I think that UM, at the 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.679 beginning of the pandemic, toward the kind of in twenty 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.080 we saw a lot of news stories and a lot 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:40.920 of accounts from people who were saying that they felt 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:44.760 really strained because they were forced to cohabitate. So there 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.159 was this narrative around UM being stuck in the house 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.640 with one's partner UM, and a lot of relationships started 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.640 to end in that moment where people were like, oh, wait, 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.039 this is not a person I actually can see myself 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:03.360 with UM long term. And frankly, I've actually seen a 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.240 lot more of that, right, I've seen a lot of 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:11.560 people who have not felt like you know, they have 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:16.200 they chose the right person. And I think that's actually 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:18.159 this is going to sound really bad, and I feel 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:21.040 bad already, but I think it's actually a good thing. 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:27.680 Oh yeah, because yeah, I think people are choosing themselves, right. 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.479 I think that the I think that the pandemic and 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.280 being in quarantine and being isolated in certain ways has 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.159 forced us to kind of sit with ourselves and to 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.440 reflect on what we need as individuals so that we 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:47.120 can make more thoughtful and intentional decisions about how we 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.360 want a couple and if we want a couple. I've 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:52.000 had a lot of friends of mine, a lot of 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.599 folks I interact with in the poly community, who are saying, 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:57.839 you know, I think I'm done right now with dating. 0:06:57.839 --> 0:06:59.920 I don't want to do anything serious at all right 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.520 now because I'm so focused on my own health and 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.640 my own healing, my own work. So, you know, I 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.200 think that love in this in this moment in particular, 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.880 is very very dynamic. Rights It's there's there's romantic love, 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.320 there's platonic love, and then there's this inner self actualization 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.680 self love that's happening that I'm really happy about as 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.840 a person who I think last time I was on 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:22.760 your show, I was with a partner who I'm not 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:28.320 even with anymore, yes, right, yeah, yeah, And that relationship 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.560 crashed and burned, and I'm fine with that, Like I 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.520 learned from it. Um, I went through a whole process 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.680 of healing with that, and I'm in a new relationship 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.080 right And I think that, Um, you know what I 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.960 think people are taking from this momentum for those of 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.640 us who've been in long term relationships who have stayed 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.200 with the same partner through all all this, and those 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.840 of us who have entered and exited and entered and exited, 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:52.960 and some people who are agnostic about all of it, 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.120 I think what the general know you is is that 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:00.560 you know, we have choices, and um, we are not 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.720 hampered by the conditions of the world. We don't have 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.120 to be in a relationship, we don't have to be coupling, 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.720 we don't have to be dating. And so everyone I 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.720 think that is thinking about this right now. People are 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:17.160 overwhelmingly thinking about doing this whole love thing on their 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:21.560 own terms. And I like that. I'm really excited about 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.640 what this looks like going forward so that people don't 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.440 feel like they're obligated to show up, you know, and 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:31.480 do the whole chocolates and flowers and this kind of date. 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.319 And you know, like people are showing up on their 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:38.600 own terms. And I think that's a good thing, you know. 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.920 I love. I mean, there's so many things that you 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.240 just said, so i'll you know, we'll unpack some of them, 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:48.320 one of it being that love is very dynamic now 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.680 and and I really love that, right. I like that 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.600 love is not something that happens to you. It is 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.800 something that requires And I've been saying this a bit 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:04.160 on Woke a F two similarly around joy, which is 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:08.319 that there needs to be an intentionality around it. Right. Um. 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:13.360 You know, Hollywood and society has fed us a either 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.640 one size fits all model, right, which is which is out, 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:23.240 which is you know, very heteronormative, um, very very monogamous, 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.880 right in terms of there's one person out there for 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.120 you know, for you, and if you don't find that 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.200 person by the time that you're thirty, you're some type 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:36.520 of failure, right, And that the goal is for everybody 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:40.040 to walk down an aisle and exchange your ring. Um, 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:44.040 And that there is a son, can we Yeah, let's 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:49.160 dig into the to the the fact that love is dynamic, 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:54.280 that there isn't just one prescribed way to love. And 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:56.679 I think, you know, we had so many jen the 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:58.840 last time that you were on, We had so many 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:03.800 comments and questions from from listeners about you know, and 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.120 and I was surprised because I thought that maybe there 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.959 would be like a lot of judgment, and there was none. 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:13.160 It was more so questions about well, how does this work? 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.000 And more and and and in the way. Even my 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:19.480 own dad, who listens to the show, My dad was 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.160 just like, so, how does this work? Like, you know, 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.959 I get it. I get why two women want to 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.360 be Obviously his daughter is a lesbian, so he's like, 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.640 I get why two women want to be together, But like, 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.600 why all the other people, you know, isn't she aren't 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.839 they tired? Like that was my That was literally my dad. 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:44.760 So talk to us about about about love being uh, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:50.320 dynamic and not and not static. Yeah, you know that's 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.000 always people are so explaining to me how does it work? 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.840 That's always the question. So I never I'm never upset 0:10:55.880 --> 0:11:00.800 when that's the question, Um, you know, my tired. Yes, 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:07.360 I'm exhausted. But it's not because my relationshous you know, 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.640 Here's how I explain it is that you know, I'm 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.760 a polyamorous person, and I've always been a polyamorous person. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.440 I've never been a monogamous because I've never understood monogamy. 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:22.400 So you know, I think because you know, I first 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:24.679 fell in love with a girl when I was eight 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:26.959 years old, and she was my best friend, and all 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.000 I knew was that I wanted to go over her 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.400 house and like do crafts with her and hug her 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.199 all the time and kiss her on the cheek. And 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.480 you know, to me, that was the most innocent and 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:41.160 most clear form of my expression of love for this 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.720 person that I had I had experienced at that point, 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:49.960 and so as I grew up, for me, these demarcations 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:54.320 between like platonic love and romantic love, they weren't there 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:59.040 because I felt romantic feelings at times. I felt platonic 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.280 feelings at times for people. I was sometimes attracted to 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:06.920 people and other times not. And for me, that was 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.480 my body telling me, you know, what I wanted for 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.360 myself and how I wanted to relate to others. And 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.599 I was lucky in that even though my mother was 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.320 always very traditional. She was just very heteronormative, very Christian. 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:25.679 She never enforced those types of boundaries on me and 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:27.480 how I moved through the world. I think she always 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.160 kind of knew. She was like, I think you're queer, 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.160 so I'm just gonna let you figure that out, right, 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.080 Like she did what she could with what she had, 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.040 But when it came to how I moved through the world, 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.320 she would always tell me, you know, you're just very 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.160 different from me, and I don't ever want to try 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.160 and shape you, know how you make choices for yourself. 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:50.240 But I'm here if you have questions, you know. And 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:54.640 when we think about love being dynamic, what I say 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:59.480 about this is that we love all the time, right. 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:05.400 We love of people. We love children, niece's nephews, we 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:09.920 love best friends, we love our coworkers. You know. We 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.880 fall in love with people all the time. We'll meet 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:17.079 someone and they'll be an amazing singer or a fantastic painter, 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.200 and we're like, oh my gosh, and we feel this 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.960 deep connection and we're like, oh my gosh, I love 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:27.160 this person. Right, And for me, I embrace those feelings 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.000 as directive, right, I say, oh, it's okay for me 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.920 to love this person and if I feel romantic feelings 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.800 for them, that's okay. It's monogamy culture that teaches us 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:40.160 to feel bad about that, like we can only reserve 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.280 those special feelings for one person, and typically like one 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:46.800 person is someone who's a different gender from us and 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.280 that we want to have babies with and go on 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.160 the relationship escalator and blah blah blah blah blah. So 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.840 for me, you know, being a black feminist and being 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.839 an abolitionist, I don't care about it any of that, right, 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.360 I'm like, you know, I don't understand how I can 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:10.120 espouse a liberation is politic and create these encapsulations and 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:14.840 these barriers for myself in my own personal life. And 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.640 so love has to be for me, it has to 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.320 be freeing. It has to be expansive. It can't be 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:25.600 a place where I feel imprisoned to a set of 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.600 standards and social norms that I don't even subscribe to 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:33.480 or that I didn't even identify for myself. And to me, 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.040 it feels like another way of thinking about this is, 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.480 you know, white supremacy and to blackness, massage, no noir, 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.840 like all these systems that I don't personally have an 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.680 investment in right. I also don't have an investment in 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.200 monogamy culture. I don't need to live that way. It 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:51.400 doesn't serve me, right. So what I'm hoping and I 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.920 honestly I will say, I feel like during quarantine a 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.280 lot more people have been thinking about polymory and I 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:03.840 love that too. People like on top of the conversation 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:08.440 about you know, when we started, there are more articles 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:14.920 and more conversations around you know this outside of monogamy, 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:19.600 the belief that you know, I polyamory, which you tell 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.640 me a couple of years ago, it was not. I 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.160 don't want to say that it's mainstream now, but there 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.840 were more people who know what polyamory is, who have 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.840 like a basic understanding of it. We see it on 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.400 some television shows. What is it about this time in 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.200 our society outside both in the pandemic and outside of it, 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.920 that you think is kind of leading this new charge? 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.760 You know, there's obviously like the answer of the information age, 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.920 and there's more people who have social media. There's like 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:58.000 prominent polyamorousts on like Instagram who are sharing their experiences. 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.600 And there was a red table talk talk and all 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.280 of that, right, But I think the nitty gritty and 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.200 the nuts and bolt of it is that people are 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:10.840 realizing that monogamy doesn't really serve them, and you know, 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.360 you go back to the drawing board over and over 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:17.240 and over again in monogamous relationships that don't do well. 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.280 And then so people are looking for options, they're looking 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.120 for solutions to what their problems are. So a lot 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.800 of a lot of people have meant, unfortunately, come to 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:32.920 polyamory through unethical non monogamy, so cheating, right, They're like, Okay, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.600 I spent years and years and years cheating on my partner, 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.480 and I realize it's because I'm actually polyamorous, and I'm like, yeah, 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.840 I just wish that wasn't so much of the narrative, right, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.280 Like in nets life, you know, people discover things about 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.280 themselves in the ways that they do. That's just that's 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.920 the journey. But I do think that that is a 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.360 important way for us to think about what monogamy teaches us. Right, 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:01.360 It socializes us even into relationships and into a culture 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:03.840 where even as it's not serving us, we will stay 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.000 trapped in it, right, We will stay in it because 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:10.080 we're supposed to we're afraid of the stigma. We feel 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.080 a lot of shame. There are people around us who 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.320 will say, how dare you not be appreciative of that 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.320 one part you have when I have no one? Right, 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.359 That's the refrain I've gotten for years. For years, there 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.359 was a time where I was relationship with about three people, 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.520 and I had a friend who was single, and they 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.640 would constantly say to me, you know, do not talk 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:34.960 to me about your relationships because I don't have any 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.200 and you have three. And I was like, yeah, that's 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:42.159 so problematic, right. And I think that we are in 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.200 a moment now where I think for folks who are 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:50.080 discovering polyamory and the popularization of polyamory, there's an intersection 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:52.960 there where folks who are realizing that they actually don't 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.080 care about the stigma or the shame associated with it, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:00.280 because they'd rather be happy, right, you know. Being in 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.720 this particular political moment, in the post Trump moment, in 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.399 this COVID moment, it's like we have dealt with so 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:11.520 much grief, were dealt with so much anguish and pain, 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:14.879 in the constant state of mourning, and I think that 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.400 overwhelmingly people are like, I just want to feel loved 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:22.560 and held and cared for on terms that reflect who 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:24.639 I am and what I want for myself. And that 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:29.000 may not be monogamy. It may not be heteronormative, it 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:32.359 may not be traditional. I may not want children, I 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:35.000 may not even want to move through the world in 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.880 the ways that I did be a post pre pandemic, right, 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:43.520 And I think that those are all valid, explorative moments 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.640 that people need to have in their lives. And I'm 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.320 happy for people. Like when folks are like, yeah, I'm 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.640 ending this long term relationships. I realized this wasn't happy, 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:54.440 and I'm like, well, I'm sorry, but that's great, right, 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.440 Like you weren't happy, and you're freeing yourself from something 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.320 you're not happy happy with, Like that's a really good thing. 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:06.040 So I think that you know, it's not just cultural. 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:08.560 It's not just like you know movies and TV shows. 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:10.480 We've seen a lot of it's on television. They always 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.840 do it. They do an awful job talking about polyamory. 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:19.560 One I saw something and I said, I said, they 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:25.000 needed they needed y'all um to come on as like advice, 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.640 No seriously, like as advisors, because I think that there 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:32.560 is this made up version of polyamory. And then there 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.639 is like the actual real, you know, conversation. There's a 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:41.280 book that I actually i'd started reading, um, following one 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:46.399 of our conversations poly Secure, Um, I had started reading. 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:50.480 I had started reading that book to understand like that 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.480 all of us have a different attachment styles, yes, and 0:19:54.560 --> 0:20:00.359 that and recognizing those attachment styles, recognizing ways in which 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:05.840 our attachments have been disrupted, right, um, And and then 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:09.440 how we come into relationship and what is that there 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:15.359 is an opportunity to create secure attachment with multiple people? 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:20.000 Yeah right, um? Yeah, And so I feel like when 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.840 I watch these shows, though, I'm like, nobody read that book. 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:27.000 I'm like, nobody, nobody read the book. Nobody, nobody's reading, 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.000 nobody's reading. And you know, like, I'm so glad you 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:32.320 brought that up too, because really, over these years, I 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:34.240 think a lot of people have been digging into their 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.320 own helium journeys and reading books like My Grandmother's Hands 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:42.560 and The Body Keeps the Score and Polly's Secure and 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:46.240 you know this book called Attached. Right, I've been really 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:50.479 hearing folks talking more about these or the set Boundaries workbook, right, 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.240 all these books that are really about understanding what you 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:58.080 want for yourself and your own body and your own desire, 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.679 and then going out and setting a standard for others 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:05.359 to meet you there. And I think you know, part 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.240 of what's coming out of that, right is this when 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:10.800 we talk about secure attachment, and you know, people can 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:14.159 read the books or whatever, discovering how you attached to 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:18.119 others based on the traumas you've experienced, based on the 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:22.320 past relationships you've been in. Right, that is a major 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:27.280 point of self discovery, Like that is a major access 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:29.760 point for you to decide how you want to move 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:33.720 forward in future relationships. And for a lot of people 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.680 they found, oh my gosh, the way that I've been 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:38.560 connecting with people on here, I'll just talk about not 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.000 a lot of people talk about myself. Right. I discovered 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.120 for me that, you know, my past relationship, my most 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:48.600 immediate past relationship was a trauma bond associated with my 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.840 parental relationship, and that it didn't work because I was 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:56.520 trying to recapture a love for my mother in my relationship. 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.520 And I was like, damn therapy, right, Like it hit 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:02.679 me in my gut as it was ending, I was like, 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.359 why am I dating my mother? Right? And I was 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:08.919 reading these books and I was like, oh my gosh, 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.760 that's what I'm doing. That's what's happening here, you know. 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:15.280 And I think that's also what's happening in this moment, 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:19.600 is that people are being forced to face the forms 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:21.480 of grief and pain that a lot of in a 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:23.119 lot of respects, we could walk away from before. We 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:24.720 could leave the house, we could go on trips, we 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.760 could go a movie, we could get ourselves distract, distraction 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:30.640 of a hobby, right, we could do all types of things. Right. 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.320 We can't socialize in those ways anymore. We can't go 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:40.080 out and keep ourselves distracted from our inner cells, our 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:44.360 inner knowing, and so having to face those things I 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.119 think has also made people realize, hey, wait, I'm actually 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.760 wired differently than I thought I was, and that might 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:53.200 be in their loving relationships, that might or some people 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:57.040 have said, actually I'm very monogamous, right, Like my spouse 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.399 he said, listen, I'm actually still a heck of any 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:04.880 and he like, he hasn't budged, and he's gotten happier 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.439 and happier every day in his monogamy, and I'm happy 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:10.239 for him. Right. So this isn't to say that you know, 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:13.639 that's the direction that everyone is going to take, or 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.359 that that's the option that folks discover when they start 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.080 to investigate who they are. But it is to say 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.640 that it's a great thing that in this moment people 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:24.440 are doing that work. And if it just affirms where 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.520 you are, that's good too. But what's important is centering 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:31.719 one's happiness, one's joy, and one's authenticity right moving in 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.520 one's authenticity. And if we're not doing that, we have 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:37.679 to get to the work of doing that. How do 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:40.040 you in you know, if you don't, if you don't 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:45.440 mind me asking, because you and your nesting partner, your 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:53.760 spouse have different uh, I guess different relationship orientations, right, um, 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:59.800 how did you come about having those conversations? So, for instance, 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:02.920 like I'm thinking to myself, somebody you know, the WOKAP 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:06.119 audience listening to this, and they're saying, you know, maybe 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:10.080 maybe I do need to tap more into how I 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:13.479 attach to people, what I consider to be important for 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:17.040 me at the foundation of relationship and what relationship looks like. 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:19.400 But I think that the person that I'm with this 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:22.280 is going to be a really difficult conversation to broach. 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:26.600 Maybe we've been together for several years already in one 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:31.520 form or understanding, or I'm now venturing out on my 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.040 own right having left said partner, and now I'm in 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:39.080 a news space. How do I open myself up for 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.800 these varied formations of relationship? How do I engage in 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:47.920 those conversations? Yeah? So, I mean the first step I 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:52.280 would say is truth telling. You know, shout out to 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:54.520 Bell Hooks and all the black feminists who start there. 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:59.520 We if we are not in community with people who 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:02.680 if we can't tell people our truths, our inner sanctum, 0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:04.919 our inner communities or inner circles, so we can't tell 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:08.120