1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. I am 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: so excited about next week's guest that I couldn't wait 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: until Tuesday for you to hear some of what she 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: has to say. Emily Gorzenski is an activist who uses 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: her data science background to fight Nazis. Yep, you heard that. 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Right After being pepper sprayed by a well known white 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: supremacist at the deadly Unite the Right Valley in Charlottesville, 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: Emily built First Visual, a resource that documents and tracks 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: the court proceedings of Nazis and white supremacists. This work 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: has not been without significant personal risk for Emily. She 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: even relocated out of the United States to Germany just 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: to get some space. And when the white supremacist that 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: Emily tracks try to attack her, they often do so 15 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: using transphobic attacks on her identity as a trans woman. Unfortunately, 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: weaponizing trans identity is not isolated, and just this week 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: there was a flood of irresponsible public transphobia from our 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: elected officials during the Senate hearing for Dr Rachel Levine, 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: the first transgender person to be nominated for a Senate 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 1: confirmed position in the federal government. Ray and Paul asked 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: her a series of completely offensive, deeply transphobic questions that 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: pushed harmful misrepresentations, obviously meant to attack her identity as 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: a trans woman. And after Rep. Marie Newman, whose daughter 24 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: is trans, hung a trans flag outside of her office 25 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: and advocated for the Equality Act, insurrection supporter Marjorie Taylor Green, 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: whose offices across the hall, went out of her way 27 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: to cruelly antagonize her for supporting her kid. To make 28 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: matters worse, when Newman posted a video of her putting 29 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: up the trans flag, she says Facebook took it down 30 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: and labeled it as quote hate speech, while leaving Marjorie 31 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: Taylor Green's transphobic nonsense up. Now. I'm being purposely vague 32 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: here because I don't want to spend too much time 33 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: talking about the specifics of their antics, because that's exactly 34 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: what they want. These people are scammers who use trans 35 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: people's actual lives as stunts for attention and escore ideological 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: points instead of actually doing their job and governing. From 37 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: fear mongering about bathrooms and trans kids on sports teams, 38 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,399 Speaker 1: these kinds of stunts prevent trans people from just being 39 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: able to safely live their lives. Now, in our interview, 40 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: Emily says, this is an intentional strategy to cause harm. 41 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: Here's a preview of our conversation. You're already dealing with 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: so much, and it's like one more thing that you 43 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: don't need, one more thing to take you out of 44 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: your work, or one more thing to take up your 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: energy or your capacity, which we already know is scarce. 46 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: That's part of the plan, right, This is a weaponized 47 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: sort of war of attrition, right that they do this 48 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: because if they get you spending your your energy and 49 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: all of these little things, Ultimately, if you needed to 50 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: swallow it, you could to get the job done. You 51 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: would just swallow it to get the job done. But 52 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: you want to fight it, right, And so they're trying 53 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: to distract you. They're trying to steal your energy fighting 54 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: these pointless battles. And they're not pointless battles, but they're 55 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: not the main point of the battle. Right, So it's 56 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: like death by a thousand paper cuts with all of 57 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: this stuff. And yeah, I don't know it, just it 58 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: just seems like that's part of this like fascist strategy 59 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: is to just keep you constantly occupied, so that you 60 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: can never get ahead, because they know that if you 61 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: had a moment peace, right, imagine what we could all 62 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: do given that, Like the stuff that I'm accomplishing now, 63 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: having moved to Germany, having gotten some space between you know, 64 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: the trauma and the noise and all of that, and 65 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: like the healing that I've done, Like I'm doing the 66 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: best work of my life right now, because that's the 67 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: power that I have. And I got that power by 68 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: having to fight, like by surviving all of these fights 69 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: for so long, you know, as somebody that's mixed raight, 70 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: as somebody that's transgender, as somebody that's queer, right, it's 71 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: just a constant battle. Well, surviving that has given me 72 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: the tools to to excel. But at the same time, 73 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: sometimes I wish I could just be kind of normal 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: and just like exist like everyone else and just have 75 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: a normal life, right, and not everyone gets to make 76 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: it through all of that noise, and and they you know, 77 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: that's that's the point, that's how they keep us down. Yeah, 78 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: I even see it in you know, I feel that 79 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: a lot of the online conversation are around issues impacting 80 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: the trans community, people like bad actors and ship heads 81 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: have have dominated, especially online, dominated those conversations, and so 82 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: every conversation is like trance people in sports bathrooms. And 83 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: it's like if we, if folks did not have to constantly, 84 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: you know, contend with these very loud people who essentially, 85 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: in my opinion, have been able to really own the 86 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: conversation online, Like, could we actually have a productive conversation 87 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: that moves us forward? But I feel like we can't 88 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: because we're still the people who who want to be 89 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: flooding every conversation with like a bunch of nonsense that 90 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: they have dominated the online space. I feel yeah, And 91 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: it's it's all culture work stuff, right, Like this whole 92 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: thing now it's about trans trans kids in sports, right, 93 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: there's no problems with trans kids in sports, all of 94 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: these things that they're talking about. There's no statistics whatsoever 95 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: that suggests that this is a problem in any any way, 96 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: shape or form. If a bunch of trans girls were 97 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: out there winning every sports championship for you know, in 98 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: high school women's sports and college women's sports, even I 99 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: would say, like, you know, maybe we need to revisit this, right, 100 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: But that's not happening. There's none there's none there are 101 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: no trans women dominating called collegiate athletics. There are no 102 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: trans women dominating high school athletics. There are no trans 103 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: women dominating the Olympic you know, um women's competition. There 104 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: are some trans women who are successful in those competitions, 105 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: but we do not see a wave of you know, 106 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: sis men trying to pretend that trans women so they 107 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: can get in a gold medal. We don't see that. 108 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: We don't see trans women, trans girls joining these teams 109 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: to dominate them. This is a completely fabricated issue, and 110 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: the reason it has been fabricated is in order to 111 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: create this polarization so that the right can stay relevant 112 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: by creating this cultural division. And trans people have been 113 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: historically used as scapegoats, um as as just you know, 114 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: we are just one sort of identity that has been 115 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: used as scapegoats. You know, three or four years ago, 116 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: this was all about bathroom bills. Okay, well, there was 117 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: no evidence of of any trans women ever sexually assaulting 118 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: anyone in the bathroom, or or or any men trying, 119 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: you know, assist gender men trying to pretend that they 120 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: are trans women to assault women in bathrooms. There were 121 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: plenty of cases of sis gender men going into women's 122 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: bathrooms when assist gender woman who was like a butch 123 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: lesbian went in there and then beat her up, So 124 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: that the actual threat of men men again, you know, 125 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: men on women violence in women's bathrooms was the opposite 126 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: of this problem, right, It was the thing that they 127 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: were saying was going to happen, was the thing that 128 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: they were doing. All of this is culture war stuff. 129 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: All of this is to designed to keep inflated this 130 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: polarized version of of politics UM and to rally people 131 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: to you know, the right notes that it's it is 132 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: a losing cause, but they create these fake issues UM 133 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: to mobilize people. And it works because we're left here 134 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: holding the bag because we have to be outraged and 135 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: we have to fight it because the if we don't 136 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: fight it, it's a catastrophe. If we do fight it, 137 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: it becomes this polarization vector. And then all of these 138 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: talking heads you know, on on social media and in 139 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: the New York Times op ed and on cable news, 140 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: they're all sitting here going is America still polarized? Like 141 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: is it really both sides that are bad? And like 142 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: fuck you, buddy, you're not affected, Like you're not going 143 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: to get beat up if you go to try to 144 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: take a leak in the bathroom at a courthouse or 145 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: a school. Right, this is not This is not an 146 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: issue of people becoming polarized. This is an issue of 147 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: people who have always had a right defending against lies 148 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: that are being used to try to remove that right 149 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: in order to further a different political agenda. Like we're 150 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: not you know, we're not a football, right, We're people, 151 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: and then us fighting to retain whatever little dignity we 152 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: are granted somehow becomes like a both sides issue. Fuck that. 153 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: It's so insulting, and I think people forget that these 154 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: are people that, yeah, where people. It's like you're yeah, 155 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: you're not. I guess. I hate when I see people 156 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: talking about other human beings as if it's some sort 157 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: of ideological exercise or something, you know, not someone's actual life. 158 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: It's very frustrating. People shouldn't have to go through this. 159 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: Trans people are valid, and trans people belong, and we 160 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: shouldn't stand for their identities and lives being used for 161 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: chief political stunts. Emily's work is so incredible and she's 162 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: so cool. I was almost kind of nervous to talk 163 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: to her. Tune in to Disinform from There Are No 164 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet this Tuesday to hear our entire conversation. 165 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: You won't want to miss it. If you've enjoyed this podcast, 166 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: please help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about 167 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi, 168 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you at Hello at tangoi 169 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 1: dot com. Disinformed is brought to you by There Are 170 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of I 171 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unbust Creative Jonathan Strickler as our executive producer. 172 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: Tory Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Lamotto 173 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Todd. For 174 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: more great podcasts, check out the I Heart Radio app, 175 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.