1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I and 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Matt and today we're discussing giving consumers leverage with Richard 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: Cordrey Schedule. Today we have the honor of speaking with 4 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: Richard Cordrey, who served for six years as the first 5 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, or CFPB for short. 6 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: Since his time at the CFPB, he has written a book, Watchdog, 7 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: How Protecting Consumers can see if our families, our economy, 8 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: and our democracy. In his book, Richard shares stories of 9 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: individual consumers in order to show how the Bureau quickly 10 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: became a powerful force for good. Watchdog tells a hopeful 11 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: story of how our system can be reformed by putting 12 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: government back on the side of people. And we're also 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: going to to discuss what we as individuals should look 14 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: out for, especially given this great lockdown that we find 15 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: ourselves in. We're excited to hear all about this. So Richard, 16 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us today on the podcast. 17 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: Glad to be with you, Richard were I was so 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: glad to get to chat with you. I'm a big 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: fan of the CFPB and all the work that you 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: did there, So we're excited to kind of dig into 21 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: that and to talk about your book a little bit. 22 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: But the first question we ask everyone who comes on 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: the show is what is there splurge? Because Matt and 24 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: I like to drink craftier. We're drinking a pilsner by 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: Crooked Stave Brewing Company today on the show. So what 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: is your splurge that you that you're willing to spend 27 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: a little bit more on right now while you're saving 28 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: an investing well for the future. That's a good one. Uh. 29 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: In fact, I just ran across a Japanese word the 30 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: other day called sundoku is the condition of buying more 31 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: books than you will ever be able to read. I 32 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: have that condition, as my family took great glee in 33 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: pointing out to me. It's nice. Another's a term for it. Yes, 34 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: t s o n d okay ku. I believe very cool. 35 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: So is there a particular type of book or genre 36 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: that you find yourself drawn to? Well, I've been buying 37 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: a lot of books about consumer finance, consumer economics. I'm 38 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: going to be teaching a course on that, and of 39 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: course needed to do research for my book. I do 40 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: a lot of reading in ancient history, which I very 41 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: much enjoy and like and moral philosophy. So I have 42 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: my particular areas, but I can buy just about any 43 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: book that strikes my fancy and apparently I do all right. Okay, 44 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: very cool. I learned a new Japanese term today too, 45 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: So Richard, before we dig into the book, the first 46 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: question we really wanted to get out of you is 47 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: back in you're on Jeopardy, and you you want a 48 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: good bit of money going on Jeopardy, and so with 49 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: your winnings. I think it's kind of funny that you 50 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: ended up paying down school debt and you bought a 51 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: used car, which is such a frugal thing to do. 52 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, we'll tell us about your Jeopardy experience. It 53 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: was my own unique personal finance plan. I actually made 54 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: more money, as it turned out, on Jeopardy that year 55 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: than I did clerking for the Supreme Court of the 56 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: United States for the entire year, so that is awesome. 57 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: It worked well for me, and as you say, um, 58 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: I was able to pay off some student debt that 59 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: I had from school, which of course many people would 60 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: love to be able to do in the first year 61 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: or two out of school, and unfortunately that's a quite 62 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: an aspiration for many people today. Yeah, seriously, And so 63 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: I mean was that your plan essentially was was knowing 64 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: that you could get on there, there's there's a chance 65 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: that you could walk away with some good some good winnings, 66 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: some good earnings. Well, it's a plan kind of like 67 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: playing the lottery. You know there's a chance, there's a chance. 68 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: But it was somewhat better chance for me as it 69 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: turned out. But uh, yeah, happily it worked out well 70 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: for me, And it's been a credential that throughout my life, 71 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: regardless of any public offices or other things I've held, 72 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: it's the thing that brings a smile to people's face 73 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: about my resume and is a conversation pieces as apparently 74 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: it was for you. Yeah, certainly. I only watched Jeopardy 75 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: just to know what state capitals. I don't know would 76 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: there's only fifty of them. Category. Well, Richard, let's go 77 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: to dive into the CFPB, essentially the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. 78 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: At the very beginning of your book, you talked about 79 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: how consumers they're essentially a fragmented group. Right, it's hard 80 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: for us to fight back collectively against large corporations and 81 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: against these giant financial companies. Uh, and so as I 82 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: say in the book. President Kennedy pointed this out in 83 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: a speech to Congress in nineteen sixty two, that all 84 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: of us are consumers, and so you think that as 85 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: a group we would have considerable clout and muscle, But 86 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: none of us really thinks of ourselves are identifies in 87 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: those terms. We think about living in a particular community, 88 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: or being part of a family, or part of a 89 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: religious denomination, or by profession or career, or even by 90 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: sports team, but not so much our consumer uh side 91 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: of life, even though that is an increasingly large part 92 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: of our lives. And one of the things I pointed 93 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: in the book is that consumer finance now looms very 94 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: large in the lives of most Americans in a way 95 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: that it didn't two generations ago. Our grandparents had very 96 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: little access to credit and little little opportunity that credit 97 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: can bring you, but much less risk as a result. 98 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: But today we have access to a lot of credit, 99 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: a lot more risk, a lot more to figure out, 100 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: and a lot more possible calamity if we get things wrong. Right, Yeah, Well, 101 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: all that note then, like before the introduction of the 102 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: the CFPB, like, what were the effects of there being 103 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: no real watchdog no one overseeing, you know, and looking 104 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: out for consumers who had the backs of normal folks 105 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: like what did it look like? Well, I would say 106 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: that one of the big features of not having the 107 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: Consumer Bureau in place at the time was that it 108 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: brought to help bring about the financial crisis that broke 109 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: the economy and too I was and eight and destroyed 110 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people's lives by creating the Great recession 111 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: that took years for the country to dig out of. 112 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: Eerie and ironic as we are now on the crest 113 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: of a brand new uh situation, recession and consumer distress 114 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: that is starting to emerge around the country. But at 115 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: the time, there was no good regulation of how consumers 116 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: were treated in the financial marketplace. There were federal regulators 117 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: who looked after the big financial companies, made sure that 118 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: they were safe and sound, that they were able to operate, 119 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: that they would endure over time. That's a kind of 120 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: consumer protection, because the last thing you want is for 121 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 1: your bank to go belly up. But at the same time, 122 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: nobody was really looking out for how the consumers were 123 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: being treated in the marketplace, and as it turned out, 124 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: there were lots of ways in which they were getting 125 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: cheated and mistreated without much ability to hold the big 126 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: financial companies to account. So what were some of those 127 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: big ways which are that people were being taken advantage of? 128 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: The regulators were on the beat making sure that these 129 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: companies remain financially solvent, that they were that they were 130 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: going to be able to meet their obligations, but they 131 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: weren't meeting their everyday obligations to consumers. What were they 132 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: doing to take advantage of people? Typically, So a lot 133 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: of that showed up at the time in the mortgage market. 134 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: In the mortgage market, which is the biggest consumer finance 135 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: market of them all, it's about ten times as big 136 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: as student loans or auto loans or credit cards. Uh, 137 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: the lending became more and more irresponsible. What was happening 138 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: at the time was there were two assumptions that people 139 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: were making who made mortgage loans. The first was that 140 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: housing values would always be stable and generally go up 141 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: over time, and therefore they felt that they could make 142 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: a loan to just about anybody, no matter your financial condition, 143 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: because even if you couldn't repay it, there was little 144 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,119 Speaker 1: risk because they could always for clothes on the house 145 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: and sell it for more than you had paid for it, 146 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: and over time they would be protected. Other thing that 147 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: was happening as this assumption became more widespread, there was 148 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: more willingness by investors on Wall Street to buy these mortgages, 149 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: package them, and bundle them into securities for investors. Uh 150 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: And over time, the people making the mortgage loans didn't 151 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: have to care about their long term success because they 152 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: could sell them off to someone else and they'd be 153 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: out of it within actually right away or within a 154 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: few weeks, and then if the mortgage went bad later, 155 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't their responsibility. So a lot of things began 156 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: to happen in that market. People were being sold mortgages 157 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: where they were underwritten over a teaser rate, you know, 158 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: one or two percent, you know, a low rate for 159 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: the first year or two years, but it was being 160 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: underwritten as though that rate would last for the life 161 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: of the loan, which of course it wouldn't, so that 162 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: was directly misleading and deceptive. There were other ways in 163 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: which they were not bothering to assess the financial condition 164 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: of the bar, which meant that a lot of mortgages 165 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: were going to fail. They didn't bother to assess your 166 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: income or your assets. In fact, there was a term 167 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: for that, ninja loans. No income, no job, no assets 168 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: were ninja loans. And yet those were being made commonly 169 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: by lenders and ultimately qualify right absolutely and you know, 170 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: barely a pulse. And ultimately that lending became so irresponsible, 171 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: and housing values did crash, and the entire economy was 172 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: up ended, and many innocent people who never had a 173 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: mortgage or thought about a mortgage lost their jobs, others 174 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 1: lost their homes, and all of us lost a substantial 175 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: chunk of retirement savings. And at that point it became 176 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: clear that we needed bigger reforms to safeguard the mortgage market, 177 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: and we needed reforms to look out for the consumer. 178 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: And by the way, this is important thing I talked 179 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 1: about in my book Watchdog. We can all look at 180 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: consumers and think, g you made a mistake, you did 181 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: something irresponsible. You've got in over your head. You shouldn't 182 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: have done that. That's your fall, you bear the brunt 183 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 1: of it, but it has nothing to do with me. 184 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: That's not right. In two respects. Many consumers get into 185 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: trouble through no obvious fault of their own, their mislad 186 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: they're confused. The terms of these contractual obligations are quite complicated. 187 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: There's a lot of fine print. Sometimes there's deception going on. 188 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: We found that, and we had a lot of enforcement 189 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 1: actions against financial companies. So people can get in trouble 190 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: not through their own fault. The other thing is when 191 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: someone else gets into trouble, it's not just their problem. 192 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: It's all of our problem, as shown by the fact 193 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: that enough bad mortgages broke the economy and pulled in 194 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: a lot of innocent by standards who were hurt by that. 195 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: So there's a need for us to have consumer financial protection, 196 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: not just because some people make unwise decisions, but because 197 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: the aggregate of all those decisions can affect all of 198 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 1: our lives. Yeah, this might be a hard question, right, 199 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: And so like you're giving some great examples here of 200 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: why I uh, you know, a government organization is needed, 201 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: but like, where is the line between the need for 202 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: individual consumers to step up and to make sure that 203 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: they're looking out for themselves and when does the need 204 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: for a watchdog arise? Well, this is the how to 205 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: Money podcast, so I expect the hard questions that is 206 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: that is one of the hardest because we do want 207 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: people to take personal responsibility, and all of us has 208 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: an obligation to do that. And by the way, we 209 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: have to because ultimately who ends up living with our 210 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: financial decisions, most of all, it's ourselves, And if we 211 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: get things wrong, we're gonna set back our future prospects, 212 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna let down all those who depend 213 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: on us, family members and the like. So we really 214 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: need to take our own responsibility, and there's no substitute 215 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: for that. Nobody can make those decisions for You have 216 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: to make them for yourselves. But at the same time, 217 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: if people are being cheated in the marketplace, if there's 218 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: predatory behavior, if people are being misled and deceived, they 219 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: can't even make a good decision because they don't have 220 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: the right in formation. Uh, and sometimes that's deliberate. Then 221 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: we need to have protection. We need to have law 222 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: and order, just the same way that if you walk 223 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: out of your house, uh, you need protection against somebody 224 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: just coming along and robbing you. Right, there's basic law 225 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: and order in our society. There's basic law and order 226 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: in these markets. Uh. And it's a baseline that we 227 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: should demand and that we deserve as consumers and as 228 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: individual members of our society, some good, good thoughts, Richard. 229 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: We've got some more questions for you, in particular about 230 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: what the CFPB does and how consumers can get help 231 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: from the CFPB, and we will get to some of 232 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:47,719 Speaker 1: those questions right after this break. All right, Joel, we're 233 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: here talking with Richard Cordray specifically talking about empowering consumers. 234 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: And you know, Richard, we're hinting at you starting the 235 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, So let's let's talk about that, 236 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: right like you, you helped to launch the CFPB, largely 237 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: in things to the God Frank Act. So can you 238 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: give us a brief overview as to what the CFPB does. Sure, 239 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, as its name indicates, is 240 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: all about protecting consumers. That is, every one of us 241 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: in the financial marketplace. And this is not physical products 242 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: like uh, you know, unsafe toys or tobacco use. This 243 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: is the financial products that have come to dominate much 244 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: of our lives. Credit cards, student loans, auto loans, mortgages, 245 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: payday loans, every kind of credit that households use, and 246 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: every household uses a lot of credit in this day 247 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: and age, almost forty dollars per person now in consumer 248 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: credit UH in two thousand twenty in the United States. UH. 249 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: The The other thing is that the Consumer Bureau was, 250 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: as you say, an agency created from scratch by legislation 251 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: that was enacted in two thousand and ten. That's an 252 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: audacious project to go from nothing to a significant agency 253 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: that ultimately had about people, and to have a brand 254 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: new mission that nobody had really dealt with before. To 255 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: have the sole responsibility UH for overseeing consumer finance and 256 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: protecting people at the federal level. So it was a 257 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: big project and it was something that you know, we 258 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: took very seriously. We were very dedicated to the mission 259 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: of this. Many of the people who came to the 260 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: Bureau and joined the Bureau had their own stories of 261 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: how family members or people in the community they knew, 262 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: or people they had worked with, had had problems during 263 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: the financial crisis, and they wanted to do something about 264 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: it and help to make it right. So the Consumer 265 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: Bureau was put in place to protect individuals and families 266 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: and make sure that we had a level playing field 267 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: and the companies treated them fairly. You know, one of 268 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: the problems in this market is that when it's an 269 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: individual on the one side, and a big financial company 270 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: on the other side. You often can't get the time 271 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: of day. You have a problem, but they're not responsive 272 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: to it, or they give you the run around, and 273 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: people get frustrated by that and they feel alienated, and 274 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: there's not much they can do except mutter about it 275 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: and u rollably absorb the loss. But the Consumer Bureau 276 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: gave people a new opportunity, gave them a voice. They 277 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: could file complaints with us. We could handle those complaints, 278 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: we could deal with those problems, we could fix things, 279 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: and it was a brand new day, and it helped 280 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: rebalance the marketplace so that the individual had much more 281 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: clout and the big financial companies could be brought to 282 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: account and could be overseen in a way that made 283 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: them respond better to their customers. Well, Richard, it was 284 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: a daunting task to to Yeah, like you said, start 285 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: this this bureau from scratch. But at the same time, too, 286 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: it was more daunting because there were a lot of 287 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: critics that didn't want the CFPB to even exist. So 288 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: why were so many politicians, businesses and lobbyists so against 289 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: a consumer watchdog coming into existence? Yeah? Now, this this 290 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: theme has woven in throughout the book. That I wrote 291 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: Watchdog because it was definitely a part of the environment. 292 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: All the time, there were critics of the Bureau. There 293 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: were people who felt threatened by the Bureau. Who were 294 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: they They were the big banks, they were the big 295 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: financial companies. The last thing they wanted was a regulator 296 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: looking over their shoulder, watching to see how they handled 297 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: their own customers, looking to see where they were potentially 298 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: in violation of the law, getting those things corrected, forcing 299 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: them to return money to consumers where they had hurt them. Uh. 300 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: And in the end, by the way, over the six 301 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: years of my time as the leader of the Consumer Bureau, 302 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: we returned twelve billion dollars to thirty million Americans. So 303 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: there was a lot to address and there was a 304 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: lot to clean up. And the financial companies didn't want 305 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: any part of this, and they pushed back hard. They 306 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: pushed back through their allies in Congress, and they tried 307 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: to slow us down and to stop us. That started 308 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: first with blocking my nomination to be the first director 309 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: the Bureau. I was held up for two years before 310 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: I was finally confirmed by the Senate. But there were 311 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: constant efforts made to push back against us and get 312 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,959 Speaker 1: us to do less. We understood that our mission that 313 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: we were, that we were created for, was to change 314 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: the balance in the financial marketplace so that the individual 315 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: consumer had much more of a voice, had much more clout, 316 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: and the big financial companies couldn't just run over people. 317 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: But that, as you can imagine, created a lot of 318 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: a lot of controversy because the big financial companies in 319 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: Washington have tremendous influence. They are the biggest source of 320 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: lobbying money, and they're the biggest source of campaign contributions, 321 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: and so they threw their weight around in ways that 322 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: were meant to stop us from doing our job. And 323 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: it was a constant battle. Sure, And I mean in 324 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: addition to that too, you've got to have some some 325 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: tough skin, right, Yeah, it seems that you're leading at 326 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: the bureau that is at odds with the mission. You 327 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: know that the goals of these companies, which is to 328 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: make as much profit as possible. I'm sure from a 329 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: mental kind of psychological standpoint, it was trying as well. Yeah, well, 330 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: we did have to have tough skin. But the saving 331 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: grace was that my colleagues at the Bureau, who were 332 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: tremendous people, very talented people, also had a strong high 333 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: sense of mission, and they really understood and we're willing 334 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: to uh to push hard to try to get things 335 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: done that benefited the people around the country. Who who 336 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: the people were talking about, middle class people, working class families, 337 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, the people who often don't have much of 338 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: a voice in Washington. We understood that we were supposed 339 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: to be that voice and give them, uh that cloud. 340 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: But I will say that we did get a lot 341 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: of criticism, UH, And if you're going to push through 342 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: to get things done, you have to take that criticism. 343 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: And the way you should handle it is you should 344 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: sess it on the merits. Sometimes the criticism is actually right. 345 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes you do go too far and you need to 346 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: learn from it, but it can't stop you or intimidate 347 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: you from doing what you know to be the right objective. 348 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: By the way, this became a particular problem after the 349 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: advent of the Trump administration, and the last part of 350 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: the book I talked about what it was like. I 351 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: stayed on for almost a year, continuing to battle for 352 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: consumers at a time that the Trump administration had a 353 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 1: very deregulatory mind set, and so we were at odds 354 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: with one another and in terms of the thick skin. 355 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: It had to be very much something that we took 356 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: to work every day myself. There were threats constantly to 357 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: fire me. There were calls to fire me. The Wall 358 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: Street Journal editorialized numerous times that I should be fired 359 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: because I was too aggressive against the financial companies. UH 360 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: and I had to fight to stay in the job 361 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: to get some big things done during that year. Well 362 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: big things you did, get big things done, Richard, and 363 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: and the Consumer Financial Action Bureau has been able to 364 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: bring a massive benefit to consumers. You mentioned the twelve 365 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: billion dollars to over thirty million Americans, right, that's huge. So, 366 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: but I want to know the inner workings of You 367 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: mentioned Consumer Finance dot Gov being a place where consumers 368 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: are given a voice. What actually happens when a consumer 369 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: goes to Consumer Finance dot gov and they file complaint there? 370 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: How how does that get how seriously does it get taken, 371 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: how does it get process? Whose eyeballs does it get 372 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: in front of? That's a great question. And by the way, 373 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: this is covered in chapter five of the book Watchdog. 374 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: And at first I wasn't sure that that made for 375 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: a very readable chapter because it's a little bit wonky. 376 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: It's a little bit technical, but it's all about how 377 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: people can file consumer complaints with the Bureau, how we 378 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: made it easy for people to do that. You can 379 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: do it online at Consumer Finance dot gov. It takes 380 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: about fifteen minutes and you very often will get a 381 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: response and some sort of relief, and so it's worth 382 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: the time and effort. But the other thing was handling 383 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: these complaints in a way that often did get relief 384 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: for people it had. It gave them an incentive to 385 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: come to us and tell us what was happening to them. 386 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: That's really valuable for an agency like this because the 387 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: voice of the consumer suddenly is piped right into the 388 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: heart of the Bureau, And instead of us trying to 389 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 1: create our own agenda or figure out for ourselves what 390 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: we thought needed to be done, consumers were telling us 391 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: day in and day out exactly what problems they were facing, 392 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: exactly what challenges they needed to have help overcoming, and 393 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: that helped shape our work. So there was a real 394 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: virtuous circle between people bringing their problems to us, us 395 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: attempting to solve those problems, but also then being able 396 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: to have direction about where to bring enforcement actions, where 397 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: to aim our oversight where to change the rules because 398 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: consumers were being hurt, and it really made an enormous difference. 399 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: And as I say, ultimately, Time magazine did an article 400 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: about the Bureau and they called the the article fittingly, 401 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: the agency That's got your Back, and they talked about 402 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: a woman named Deborah from Michigan who had said, originally, 403 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: when she'd heard about this, she thought, well, that's another 404 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: waste of money in Washington. But then later she had 405 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: a problem with her mortgage and she was in danger 406 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: of losing her home, and she had worked out a 407 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: fix with the mortgage company, but suddenly they were telling 408 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: her she had to pay eleven thousand dollars. And she's like, 409 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: where am I going to get eleven thousand dollars? If 410 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: I had eleven thousand dollars, I wouldn't be needing a fix. 411 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: I'd be able to pay my mortgage. And she filed 412 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: a complaint with us as her last gasp, and we 413 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 1: were able to get the situation worked out in a 414 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: matter of days. They gave her the change on the 415 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: mortgage that they had promised, and they did not make 416 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: her pay the eleven thousand dollars, and she said afterwards 417 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: that we were her saviors. That happened time and again 418 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: with the Consumer Bureau, and it shows that when you 419 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,959 Speaker 1: have an agency in Washington that can actually be responsed 420 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: of two people across the country and deal with their 421 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: individual problems, that's government that works for the middle class. 422 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: You know, we all expect that the people at the 423 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: top of the heap, the top one percent, they get 424 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: their answers in Washington, they get their problems address, they 425 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: get people to pay attention to them. But who's it 426 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: pays attention to the rest of us. That's what the 427 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: Consumer Bureau did, and it sets an example for what 428 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: government can do across the board. That's why my book 429 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: talks about how protecting consumers can save not only our 430 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: families and not only our economy, but also our democracy 431 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: by making government work. Yeah, well, you're you're discussing this 432 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: virtuous circle, right, like just how that feedback that you 433 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 1: receive from consumers, how that kind of shapes and leads 434 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,239 Speaker 1: the CFPB. Like you're mentioning the mortgage mortgage lending and 435 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: how that was a big thrust and what y'all wanted 436 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: to focus on. But you have other examples of how 437 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: sort of this aggregated data from the consumer complaints where 438 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: that was able to help guide the CFPB, whether that 439 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: be through new regulation or new laws, or just kind 440 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: of what you were looking at. Yeah, sure, it happened 441 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: all the time. I give you another example that's a 442 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: story that's woven kind of throughout the book. This was 443 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: a young man. He was a service member. He went 444 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: into the military and reported to UH to basic training, 445 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: like many young service members, the very first time he 446 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: had ever left home. Suddenly he's an adult, he's on 447 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: his own. He's expected to manage his own financial affairs. 448 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 1: But he was inexperienced, somewhat naive. And what happens around 449 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: these military bases is you can heat map this. The 450 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: predatory lenders congregate there because they know that they have 451 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: all these vulnerable, unsophisticated consumers with a guaranteed paycheck from 452 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: the US government. And the comparison that's been made is 453 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: it's like grizzly bears at the stream waiting for the 454 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: salmon to come upstream to spawn and harvesting them as 455 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: they come. And it's it's high cost electronics and high 456 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: cost car and truck loans. So this young man, like 457 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: many young service members wanted to buy his first set 458 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: of wheels. So he goes out and he finds a 459 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: place nearby called Miles lending its military installment loans and 460 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: educational services. Sounded very up and up, sounded very very official, 461 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: sounded almost government alike. When he walked out of there, 462 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: he had his heart's desire a used Dodge Ram truck. 463 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: But the loan was gonna that he was saddled with 464 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: was going to cost him seventy of his take home 465 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: pay for the next several years. Uh and it included 466 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: undisclosed fees that he was not aware of and misleading 467 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 1: out on products that weren't worth what they were he 468 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: was deceived into thinking they were. When he realized what 469 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: had happened, he told his father. His father was outraged 470 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: and went to try to do something about it, but 471 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: he was told, as we all are, nothing can be done. 472 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: Didn't your son signed the paperwork? Yes, he had signed 473 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: the paperwork, and so that was that. He didn't take 474 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: that lying down, And when a son was deployed overseas, 475 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: he took over the finances and he ended up filing 476 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: a complaint with the CFPB from from being stuck. He 477 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: filed that complaint with US. We embarked on an investigation. 478 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: What we found was that there were the undisclosed fees 479 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: which violated the law, there were misleading out on products 480 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: which also violated the law, and that this miles chain 481 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: of lenders was all over the country and they had 482 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: done the same thing to fifty thou other service members. 483 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: We were able because we were able to investigate this. 484 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: Arid had no way of knowing that he was not 485 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 1: alone or that there weren't others who were in the 486 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: same boat. But we were able to investigate. We took 487 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: an enforcement action. We got millions of dollars back for 488 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: fifty service members, and the terms of their contracts were changed, 489 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: so we were able to fix the problem for them. 490 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: More than that, it turned out Ari's loan was required 491 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: to be repaid through the military allotment system. He didn't 492 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: know what that meant. It was in the fine print 493 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: of the contract, but what it meant was that the 494 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: government would pay the money to the lender before it 495 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: ever even went to his bank account. He had lost 496 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: control over his finances. If he wanted to prioritize some 497 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: other payment that month, he couldn't do it. Uh This 498 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: was an old system that had been created for the 499 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: convenience of service members before online banking, which is now 500 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: something you can get anywhere for free. UH and the Pentagon, 501 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: at our urging it created a task force that worked 502 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: with us, and we ended up getting them to reform 503 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: the allotment system so that it is no longer used 504 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: for high cost electronics or high cost loans for cars 505 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: and trucks, because it was being used as a one 506 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: way collection tool that hurt military service members rather than 507 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: helping them. So again, it's an example of an individual problem. 508 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: The individual was stuck, couldn't get any relief from anybody, 509 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: couldn't get anybody to paying attention to him. But when 510 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: we investigated it, we solved the problem for himself and 511 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of others, and then we ultimately solved 512 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: a more systemic problem for military service members for all 513 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: time to come. That's effective government. Yeah, that's massively effective. 514 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: What a great story. Thanks for sharing that one. And 515 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: we've got some more questions for you, Richard, including you know, 516 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: you mentioned the potential similarities to the Great Recession and 517 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: kind of what's happening now. We want to talk about 518 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: that a little bit with you right after this break. 519 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 1: Al rightchel, we're back from the break. We're talking with 520 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: Richard Cordray, essentially about protecting consumers. And Richard, you left 521 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: the CFPB back in seen, but recently you actually wrote 522 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: a white paper as the COVID nineteen crisis began crushing 523 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: individuals as well as small business owners. You know what 524 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: can and should the CFPB be doing in a time 525 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: like this to help consumers. Yeah, thank you for that question. 526 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: When I left the position, I feel the right to 527 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: do when you leave a government office is to stay 528 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: out of the way for a while. Let the people 529 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: who come after you do their job. They're going to 530 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: do it differently, but hold your criticism for a while, 531 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: let it all unfold. It was particularly unfortunate that when 532 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: I left, President Trump decided to pick as his interim 533 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 1: director Mick Mulveney, who had been a congressional critic of 534 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: the bureau and didn't believe in its mission and did 535 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: his best to undermine it for the year that he 536 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: was there. But I mostly held my tongue. The new director, 537 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: Kathy cranneger Is, has been confirmed by the Senate, and 538 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: she's different. She's not hostile, to the Bureau of the 539 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: way uh Mr Mulvaney had been. She is an administrator 540 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 1: and she has settled things down. But the question is 541 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: is she gonna and and is the Bureau going to 542 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: continue to be aggressive for consumers? They have not been 543 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: for the most part. They have not brought the kind 544 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: of enforcement actions we brought. We used to bring four 545 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: to five enforcement actions a month. You need to do 546 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: that to keep the financial companies on their They have 547 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: to know somebody's looking over their shoulder, and then they 548 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: get better themselves. They are mindful of what they need 549 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: to do, and they're careful about it. But if you're 550 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: not giving them that kind of oversight, people get lacks 551 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: and people get away with things, and then they feel 552 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: that they can start doing things that they shouldn't. So 553 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: that's that's a problem that I have seen with the 554 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: Bureau over the last couple of years, is not being 555 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: aggressive for consumers, being too lenient to the financial companies. 556 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: But now, in particular, as we go into this economic 557 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: crisis we're now facing, and by the way it is 558 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 1: unfolding swiftly around the country, the pandemic caused an abrupt 559 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: halt to a lot of business activity UH, and that 560 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: is now flowing through to consumers, many of whom are unemployed, 561 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: others of whom have had their hours cut sharply, so 562 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: they don't have money coming in like they had hoped 563 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: and planned, and as a result, they're falling behind on 564 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: rent or mortgage payments. They're falling behind on all kinds 565 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: of other bills. They're falling behind on auto loans UH, 566 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: their risk of eviction and foreclosure, their at risk of 567 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: their autos being repossessed. There behind on credit card bills, 568 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: and it's going to be very difficult for consumers. It's 569 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: a time when we need the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau 570 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: to really step up and understand that it needs to 571 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: protect people and to make sure that they are getting 572 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: everything that's coming to them at a time that they 573 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: need every penny to get by. And so I have said, 574 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: there has been some some legislation in the Cares Act 575 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: to try to protect people who fall behind on mortgage 576 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: payments from being foreclosed on. That legislation covers about half 577 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: the market, doesn't cover the other half of the market. 578 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: There needs to be more relief offered to people or 579 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna have a lot of people lose their homes 580 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: h and at the same time, the relief that's been 581 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: promised to them has to be get delivered, and it 582 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: has to be done by mortgage servicers who often have 583 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: trouble doing their jobs in hard times when lots of 584 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: people are having problems paying their mortgage. And so I've said, 585 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: it's not a time to ease off of mortgage services 586 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: and say to them, oh, you can do whatever you want, 587 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: because we know it's a tough time. They need to 588 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: do their jobs because otherwise it's consumers who will bear 589 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: the brunt. It's consumers who will be out on the 590 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: street having to pick up the pieces of their lives. 591 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: And so we published a white paper myself and two 592 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: of my former colleagues, uh Diane Thompson and Chris Peterson, 593 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: that gave sixteen different action steps for the Bureau to 594 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: take to really step up and do more right now 595 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: at a time when people all over the country need 596 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: the Consumer Bureau to be at its very best. Do 597 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: you think that filing a complaint on Consumer Finance dot Gov, 598 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: that that individual consumer complaint is taken as seriously now 599 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: as it was when you were at the Helm. You know, 600 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: I believe it is. I think the consumer complaint part 601 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: of the Bureau is functioning very well. Still, there was 602 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: some effort made by the leadership to shut down the 603 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: public database so that people couldn't see what was happening. 604 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: That worried me because if you can't see what's happening, 605 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: then you have to wonder if it's being done properly. 606 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: But I do believe that consumer complaints are being taken seriously. 607 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: I think they're being handled. They come in at a 608 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: great rate. I mean, people all over the country have 609 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: come to understand that this is a worthwhile lifeline to 610 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: try to use when you have a problem. Thirty thou 611 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: people a month file complaints with the Bureau, so it's 612 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: a very significant piece of things. But yes, I think 613 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: that when you have a problem with a financial company, 614 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: there's little harm in taking fift twenty minutes to file 615 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: a complaint with the Bureau. And much good can come 616 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: from it. And and it actually is valuable because it 617 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: tells the Bureau that you have this problem, and for 618 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: all you know, maybe hundreds of others do as well. 619 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: And when the Bureau sees that they should step up 620 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: and do something about it, Uh, you know, whether that's 621 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: happening to the same degree now as when I was 622 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: the leader. It's hard for me to safe from the outside, 623 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: but I believe that they continue to take this part 624 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: of things very seriously. That's good to hear. And Richard 625 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: as individual consumers, like, what types of frauds and scams 626 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: you know, do you think that we should keep an 627 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: eye out for during this pandemic, Because, I mean, anytime 628 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: there's hardship, like, there's gonna be people who are looking 629 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: to take advantage of people who are are in tough spots. Boy, 630 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: it reminds me of a phrase from the New Testament 631 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,399 Speaker 1: where uh, they're dealing with this person who's possessed by 632 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: by devils and he says, my name is Legion, for 633 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: they are so many. That's true of frauds and scams. 634 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: I mean, they are endlessly inventive. This the scammers who 635 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: are willing to I mean, these are despicable people, the 636 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 1: lowest of the low. They're willing to take money out 637 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: of people's pockets, even their last dollar when they're in distress. 638 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: And they know that when people are vulnerable, they're more 639 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: susceptible to scams. So what are we seeing. We've seen 640 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: scams around the COVID nineteen health problem itself, scams around 641 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: pretend to provide people with testing that is worthless, or 642 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: getting you to pay something up front when nothing will 643 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: be delivered, the same as happening now with treatments and medicines. 644 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: You have a certain amount of quackery out there, but 645 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: a lot of it is deliberate fraud. Now, another thing 646 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: that's happening very different from that, is that as money 647 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: is available to people and people know that money is 648 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: supposedly coming, these fraudsters try to insert themselves in the 649 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: middle of that and get a cut of the money 650 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: for themselves. So they will make promises to you, like 651 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: if you work with us, then we can get your 652 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 1: money faster, or if you work with us, you'll get 653 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: all the money, or you'll get more money because we 654 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: know more about it. Anybody can fake a website, anybody 655 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: can send you something in the mail or call you 656 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: on the phone. You have no idea who you're dealing with. 657 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: They can sound and seem very legitimate, but usually what 658 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: they're wanting to do is have you pay them a 659 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: little bit upfront and then you'll never hear from them again, 660 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: or have you share with them. Your sent that of 661 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: financial and banking information which they can misuse to your 662 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: great regret. Uh in all the ways that thieves misused 663 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: that information. So people need to be on the lookout 664 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,959 Speaker 1: right now. The best advice I can give to any 665 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: consumer is, if somebody comes to you unsolicited with some 666 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: offer that sounds too good to be true, be very skeptical. 667 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: You don't know who you're dealing with. What you need 668 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: to do is make sure you're the one who initiated 669 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: the contact. You know exactly who you're dealing with. Then 670 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: you can actually think about things more clearly. But don't 671 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: be taken in by these scammers and fraudsters. They do 672 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: it all the time, in little in big ways, and 673 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: they hurt a lot of families. So, Richard, in your estimation, 674 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: what is particularly like the largest unresolved issue that you 675 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: think affects most consumers today that you would love to 676 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: see changed. Boy, that's a good question. Um. I still 677 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of harassment that debt collectors get 678 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: away with with people. You know, there's something like one 679 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: in three households in the United States have been pursued 680 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: by a debt collector. Uh. You know, recently because there 681 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: is so much uh, so many occasions on which people 682 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: get behind on one debt or another, and then you 683 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 1: have debt collectors after them, and they can be very abusive. 684 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: They typically make their money by commission, so they only 685 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: get paid if they collect, and when they aren't succeeding, uh, 686 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: they can be very abusive, very harassing, calling all hours 687 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: of the day and night, calling friends and family and 688 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: harassing people they have no right to do. Many of 689 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: these things are against the law, but the average consumer 690 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: doesn't know. There is good information on the CPB website 691 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: at Consumer Finance dot gov about how you can assert 692 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: your rights against debt collectors, the letters that can be 693 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: sent that stopped communication and the like that. That's a 694 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: big one. I would also say that I think payday 695 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: lending continues to be an abusive exploitative practice in many states. 696 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: About a third of the states do not permit payday lending, 697 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,439 Speaker 1: but about two thirds do. These are triple digit interest rates, 698 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: and not just a hundred percent interest rates, but usually 699 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: three rates, which sound unbelievable to most people but are 700 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 1: charged all the time. And what they do is they 701 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: get you thinking this is going to be just a 702 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: short term loan. You'll repay it in two weeks and 703 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: be done with it. But in fact most people can't 704 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: do that. They end up trapped in the loan, they 705 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: pay fee after fee. Ultimately they end up paying more 706 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: than they ever borrowed in the first place, and it's 707 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: just a terrible product for most consumers. We passed a 708 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: regulation while I was there that still is on the 709 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: books to cut back on paid a lending, but the 710 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: new leadership has walked that back and is threatening to 711 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: undo it. That's the wrong direction as far as I'm concerned, 712 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: and it's another disagreement I have with the current leadership. 713 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: I think that will continue to be a battle for 714 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: many years to come. One of the quick questions as well, 715 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: So the f d i C was created after the 716 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: Great Right, the CFPB, you're a part of that that 717 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: was created after the Great Recession. Do you foresee another 718 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: organization kind of coming up in the wake of the 719 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: great lockdown? Or maybe not because this is primarily a 720 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: health crisis. That's a great question, and I haven't personally 721 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: thought that far ahead yet because this this recession has 722 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,760 Speaker 1: yet to unfold, and there's a lot of different points 723 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,839 Speaker 1: of view about how sharp or severe or lasting it's 724 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: going to be, and we probably need to know that 725 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: before we can then diagnose solutions. But it has been 726 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: the norm in America that when we have a big 727 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 1: financial crisis, there will be reforms that come out of it. 728 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: The bank panic of nineteen o seven led eventually to 729 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 1: the creation the Fellow Reserve System UH in about nineteen thirteen. UH. 730 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: The depression that in the stock market crash and all 731 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: of that that occurred around nineteen thirty two led to 732 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: the f d I C and Savings Deposit insurance. My dad, 733 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: for example, lost all his paper route money and his 734 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: local bank at the time. He was a kid during 735 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: the depression, and that was a new and important reform. 736 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: After the after the two thousand and eight financial crisis, 737 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau a needed reform, filling a 738 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: void that had existed prior to that. It's hard to 739 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: say whether there'll be a financial reform in the wake 740 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: of this crisis. I'm not sure there will UH, and 741 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: we'll have to see. It has been a healthcare crisis 742 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: that caused UH an abrupt hold. As I said in 743 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: business activity, that's kind of unique. But when we start 744 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: to see how consumers are heard out of this. We 745 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: may need some reforms to protect consumers better. I do 746 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: think another set of reforms that's needed in Washington, but 747 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 1: Congress has been slow to act. Is the whole issue 748 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: around protecting the privacy of our information, our personal information, 749 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: our financial information, and the security of our data. We 750 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: probably need some sort of congressional reform to deal with 751 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,240 Speaker 1: the security and privacy of data. But that's a little 752 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: different from the crisis we're talking about here. Yeah. Well, Richard, 753 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,439 Speaker 1: we really appreciate your time. We so appreciate the great 754 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: work you've done on the behalf of consumers. And you 755 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 1: know how you gave solid footing for the Consumer Financial 756 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: Protection Bureau from from its infancy in order to turn 757 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: it into something that really does help consumers in a 758 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: big way. So thank you so much for joining us 759 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: on the show today. That's fine, And if people want 760 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: to learn more, there's a lot more in my book 761 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: Watchdog Forward by Elizabeth Warren, how protecting consumers can save 762 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,439 Speaker 1: our families, our economy, and our democracy. It's a good 763 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: read during this time of enforced stay at home orders. Yes, 764 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: it's a wonderful book. I enjoyed reading it so yeah, 765 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: thank you so much for writing it and for for 766 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: coming on the show. Thank you well, Richard Thinks again, 767 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: so much for your time. All right, Joel Man, what 768 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: an awesome conversation. You know, we're we're talking to the 769 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: big guns here, like we're talking to the inaugural He 770 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 1: was the first director of the CFPB. Super cool that 771 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: we got to talk to him today. And I'm also 772 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,879 Speaker 1: going to kick it off with my with my big 773 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: takeaway for this episode, which is this, I tend to 774 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: lean a little towards, uh like the libertarian kind of, 775 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, side of things when it comes to politics, right, 776 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: I'm very kind of independently minded the way I think 777 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: about things and the way I view governments. However, talking 778 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: with Richard and after reading his book, it's clear that 779 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: something else was needed. Just like he mentioned towards the 780 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: beginning of our interview with him, personal responsibility and being 781 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,680 Speaker 1: smart with your money doesn't always get you there. You know. 782 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 1: He gave countless examples of how people were getting taken 783 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,839 Speaker 1: advantage of and how they didn't know that not only 784 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: were they getting taken advantage of, but lots of people were. 785 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: There's lots of different ways that different companies, financial institutions, 786 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: lenders how they were breaking the law. And so at 787 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 1: the very least, an organization that is fielding these complaints, 788 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: an organization that can kind of connect all of the 789 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: dots out there, even just that alone can go so 790 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: far when it comes to holding these different company is 791 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 1: accountable for their actions and how they're taking advantage of individuals. 792 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: And then not to mention, of course, some of the 793 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: different regulations that they can then impose upon these different 794 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: industries and you know, on these specific companies as well. 795 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: So as someone who tends to shy away from bureaus 796 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: and large organizations and you know, being told what you 797 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: can and can't do. Man I oncent see the value 798 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,959 Speaker 1: that the CFPB, how they've been able to come alongside 799 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: us middle class Americans and not only protect us in 800 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,879 Speaker 1: our families other consumers around us, but to take our 801 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,399 Speaker 1: country forward in a in a direction that it needs 802 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,400 Speaker 1: to be going. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like the CFPB 803 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: is giving a voice to the whole of America who 804 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: didn't have a voice when they were being taken advantage 805 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,399 Speaker 1: of in in any sort of financial transactions. And yeah, 806 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: especially as financial products become more complex, that's one of 807 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: the big things. So it's one of the big reasons 808 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 1: why the CFPB kind of became necessary. So I think 809 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: my big takeaway was he said that the CFPB gave 810 00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: people a voice instead of muttering into the void, there 811 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: is an actionable step that you can take because the 812 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: Consumer Financial Production Bureau exists. You can go to Consumer 813 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: Finance dot gov. You can file a complaint, and there's 814 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,760 Speaker 1: a good chance that your particular complaint will be addressed 815 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: and remedied with whatever bank or financial institution you have 816 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,920 Speaker 1: an issue with. It's not just muttering or putting out 817 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: a social media post and hoping that the company has 818 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: enough shame to be able to resolve that issue. It 819 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: is literally a watchdog who has your back, who can 820 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,359 Speaker 1: hear the complaint and take action. And I think that 821 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: is that's huge. So don't just mutter under your breath 822 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: and be upset and tweet something. We love Twitter too, right, 823 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: it's a good way to get your issue resolved. But 824 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: Consumer Finance dot Gov is in particular one of the 825 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,240 Speaker 1: best and first places you should be going to file 826 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: that complaint. And a lot of that is in big 827 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,399 Speaker 1: thanks to Return in so much of his hard work. Yeah, 828 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: what a great way to be able to step it 829 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,240 Speaker 1: up a notch right, to take it to the next level, 830 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: versus just complaining about it on Reddit. All right, man, 831 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 1: let's go take it back to the beer. This episode, 832 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,480 Speaker 1: we were drinking a Von Pilsner, and this was another 833 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,759 Speaker 1: great beer sent to us by the kind folks over 834 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: at Crooked Stave Artisan Beer Project out there in Colorado. Joel, 835 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: what were your thoughts on this one, buddy? All right, man, 836 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: So Pilsner's I'm digging them more and more the more 837 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: I have them, especially older we get, the more we 838 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: like pills nurse, I appreciate it more. That's exactly right. 839 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: Love me a good hazy I p a or a 840 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: crazy barrel aged out, but just a gentle beer that 841 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: tastes really good is becoming more relevant to my palette, 842 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: I'll say. So. I thought this one was clean, it 843 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: was crisp, it was refreshing, had some bright little hints 844 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,879 Speaker 1: of citrus going on as well. So yeah, I gotta 845 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,399 Speaker 1: say the Von Pilsner is a beer that I would 846 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,319 Speaker 1: continue to go back to, especially when my palace just 847 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: fatigued by some of the other giant beers that we 848 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: have from Crooked Stay for example, they really do kind 849 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: of hit both sides of the spectrum. That Nightmare on 850 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,320 Speaker 1: Breadth that we had is just this powerful, dark sour 851 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: with just tons of flavors going on. And I love 852 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: that beer, but I also couldn't drink it every night 853 00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: of the week. This is a beer that tastes really good, 854 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: but also at the same time, I probably could drink 855 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: one of these almost every night of the week. Yeah, 856 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. Man, This is the type of 857 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: beer that you would normally drink, maybe while you're watching 858 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: some sports. Obviously we don't really have that going on 859 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: right now, so instead I'll say this is the kind 860 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,240 Speaker 1: of beer that you drink when you're cutting the grass, 861 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: or maybe while you're watching professional athletes play FIFA on 862 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: ESPN two, which I hear is happening much of those sports. Yeah, 863 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: and I am still cutting my grass by the way, 864 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,239 Speaker 1: as well, so uh yeah, there are certain aspects of 865 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,400 Speaker 1: our lives that are still happening. Some have changed dramatically, 866 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: like sports in America right now. But either way, this 867 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: is a great beer. Like you said, it's a good 868 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: daily drinker, in particular as we're entering these summer months. 869 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: Refreshing beers like this really hit the spot. So another 870 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,839 Speaker 1: huge things to our friends out there at Crooked Stave. 871 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: All right, Jeel, that's gonna be it for this episode. 872 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 1: Listeners can find our show notes on our website at 873 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: how some money dot com. Up there will also have 874 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,800 Speaker 1: a link to Richard's book Watchdog. Yeah, and if you 875 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 1: like this episode, and if you like the podcast in general, 876 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: Matt and I would really appreciate if you would leave 877 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,760 Speaker 1: us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher 878 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening. And more than anything, we appreciate 879 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,319 Speaker 1: you listening to the show. So thanks. All Right, Matt, 880 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,439 Speaker 1: that's going to do it for this episode. Until next time, 881 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,439 Speaker 1: Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.