WEBVTT - S4: E6 — Circling the Drain 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:01.240 Hey guys. 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:03.920 Before we get into the episode, a quick note. We're 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:07.320 looking for news stories of betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series, 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:11.280 which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal and feel 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.160 ready to share your story, now is a great time 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.599 to reach out. Email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:27.360 dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.160 He would come in before he worked out and said hi, 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.680 but the only reason he was there was so that 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.960 everyone could say, well, he was there working out, but 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:44.440 he was there for the sole purpose to take a 0:00:44.479 --> 0:01:00.320 shower after his lunchtime activities. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.720 I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season four, episode six, 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:17.679 Circling the Drain. In the last episode of Betrayal, you 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.839 heard Caroline describe her final meeting with Joel in twenty 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:25.320 twenty two. They met to discuss issues surrounding their impending divorce. 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.039 The location was a coffee shop they had frequented when 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.800 they were a couple. After more than two months at 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:36.160 an inpatient rehab, Joel looked like a different person. Gone 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.080 was the clean cut cop she had lived with for 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:44.160 more than twenty years. Caroline barely recognized him. His cell 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.960 phone panged relentlessly during their meeting with messages from dating apps. 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.840 Joel's behavior hadn't changed, he just didn't need to hide 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:56.320 it anymore. As far as Caroline was concerned, the relationship 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.920 was beyond repair. And as you heard in previous episodes, 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.960 their son had already made up his mind too. But 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.800 Caroline wanted Nicole, their daughter, to make her own decision 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:09.480 about a relationship with her. 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.240 Father if she wanted to try to have a relationship 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.360 with him, and he was open to that, I wanted 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:17.840 that for her. 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.160 At the time, Nicole was the only one in their 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.080 family still grappling with weather to have a relationship with Joel. 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:32.000 When that first happened, I just couldn't believe the depth 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:39.600 of the lies that he told us or integrate all 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.000 of his actions just as one person and as him. 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.680 Nicole was entering her senior year of high school and 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:49.720 it was just her and Caroline at home. 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:55.120 In September, Labor Day weekend, our daughter and I decided 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:56.480 that we were going to get away for the weekend, 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.040 and we were going to go visit my best friend 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.440 who lives in New Mexico. And as we're on our drive, 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.959 it's about a six hour drive. This text comes through 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.760 and it's from Joel and it's probably two to three 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:12.680 screens long. 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.880 He'd sent it to both Caroline and Nicole in a 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:16.760 group chat. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.760 And it just says, I just want you guys to 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:21.480 know I love you more than anything in the world. 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:26.280 I think about your mother and you guys every day. 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:31.640 I regret my stupid actions. I hope that we can 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.320 be a family. And our daughter was just devastated by 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:36.880 this text. 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.400 Joel was saying he wanted to be a family, but 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.280 his actions showed otherwise. 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:52.280 And so I tried calling him and he did it respond. 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.920 And then she goes to call him again, and this 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.680 time you could tell he put her to voicemail, and 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.000 so I said, maybe he's at work. 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:06.280 Caroline just couldn't bear to see Nicole in so much pain. 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:08.960 She wants to connect with him and he doesn't answer. 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.400 Nicole was holding out hope. 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.800 He still holds this sort of grassp on me. 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.039 Nicole and Caroline arrived in New Mexico for a much 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.880 needed visit with Caroline's best friend, Deborah. We met her 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.840 in an earlier episode, and Deborah could see Nicole was hurting. 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:33.840 I felt like she really struggled because she was a 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.640 daddy's girl. She was trying to weigh out do I 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:40.920 want to still have a relationship with my dad. 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.960 The next day, my best friend, her husband, me, my 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:49.480 daughter were facetiming with my son who is in college 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:52.800 on the East Coast, and we start just reminiscing and 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.919 going down memory lane, and my son says, oh, I 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.080 remember this picture. I got to pull this picture up. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.640 He's real silent, and then all of a sudden, he says, Mama, 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:05.880 could you take me off speakerphone and just talk to me? 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:08.599 And so I said, well, what's going on? And so 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:12.320 he gets very serious and he said, please just take 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:13.960 me off speakerphone. I just want to talk to you. 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.760 And so I excuse myself and I said, is everything okay? 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:18.359 And he said no. 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.560 Their son told Caroline that she needed to look at 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:27.200 their shared family photovault. Joel was still uploading pictures. 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:27.440 To the cloud. 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:33.520 When I pull it up, there is just picture after 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.120 picture of women on a beach who you can clearly 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.120 tell they have no idea how they're being photographed. 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.680 Immediately, Caroline went to Deborah and showed her what her 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:43.440 son had seen. 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.919 It's just pictures of girls in their bikinis. Some of 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:52.200 them are zoomed in on their butts or their crotch. 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:57.320 You know that the women don't know because they're either 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.800 laying down and their face is on the opposite end, 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.080 or you know, he's behind them when they're walking. 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.000 There was one girl I remember she was walking with 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.599 her boyfriend. She was hand in hand with a boy 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.520 and he was taking pictures of her butt. 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:19.880 Joel had gone to the beach and secretly photographed women. 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.880 He zoomed in on parts of their bodies, all while 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.200 telling his family he was committed to change. 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:31.560 And I am mortified, mortified that my son is seeing this. 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.560 His frantic responds to me, is you got to delete this. 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.400 Get it off of here, Get it off of this. 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.440 And I go to call Joel and he doesn't answer, 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:44.000 and then I'm trying to figure out how to get 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.680 a hold of him, and I'm texting him what I'm seeing. 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.240 The photos were right there in the vault for the 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:54.240 entire family to access. Joel was indulging himself with no 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:58.040 thought about the fact that his kids could see these pictures. 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.599 And there weren't just photos of women. There was also 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.120 a photo of Joel out at a bar in California. 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:08.880 By his side is a fellow CSPD officer, a buddy 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.440 who must have come out to visit. In the photo, 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.640 they were out at a bar, smiling and holding up beers, 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:15.320 having fun. 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.640 Meanwhile, his family was falling apart. 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.000 I mean, it just appears that he treated this npatient 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:28.640 rehab facility as a glorified frat house, not as a 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.040 therapeutic opportunity. 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.320 This was just kind of a retreat for him, a 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:40.600 little vacation away from Colorado and the mess that he created. 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.680 Joel finally responded to Caroline's text, saying he didn't realize 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.680 he was still sharing the digital photo vault. 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:53.440 We had extremely minimal contact, but after I found out 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:57.200 about the pictures, I told him we can't even share 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:01.120 a phone account together. It was almost i uncle. I 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:02.960 thought to myself, you're not even safe to have a 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:08.080 Netflix account with that next day, I went out and 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.400 I put the kids and I on a separate phone plan. 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:13.960 She acted quickly. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.360 All she wanted was to shield the kids from these images. 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.760 I was so frantic. I am at my best friend's home. 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.640 I'm not even home, and my immediate concern was to 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.679 make sure that we are completely separate from him. 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.000 So she asked Joel to delete the shared account, and 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.719 he did, but in the rush, Caroline didn't save all 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.440 the old family photos. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.600 Which I mean sounds a little cheesy, but you know now, 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:47.720 I don't have the kid's baby pictures or video of 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.600 my dad's celebration of life. All of that was on 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.640 our shared account. There is just no way I could 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.439 chance the kids and I continuously seeing these types of 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:00.040 pictures and images that he tod. 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.199 And just being able to view those photos felt like 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:10.359 a liability. Before she separated their phones and photos, Caroline 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:12.920 noticed something else in Joel's cloud pictures. 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:18.120 There's one woman repeatedly then pictures very recently. 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.800 It looked like Joel was already in a new relationship. 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.320 Caroline texted him to ask who the woman was. 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:31.800 He says that he met someone while he was in rehab. 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.200 She lived in Puerto Rico and they had decided to meet. 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.720 Caroline thought back to the text she and Nicole received 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.960 a few days earlier while they were driving to New Mexico, 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.640 when he said he'd do anything to repair their relationship. 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.680 And so the truth is revealed that he sends this 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.720 text begging the kids and I that he wants to 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.000 be a family again and he's so sorry. But the 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.440 fact of the matter is he was sending it all 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:03.840 he was already with a female he met online, and 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.840 so it just kind of became this awareness in that 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:12.559 moment for everyone, but specifically our daughter, that whenever he 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.960 reached out really trying and wanting to be a part 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:21.760 of our lives, it was always a way to mast 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.960 and disguise the fact that he was doing just the 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:26.280 opposite of what he was saying. 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:29.400 Nicole noticed the same pattern. 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.120 He reaches out, sends my brother and I a text 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.200 message when he knows that we're going to find out 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:38.720 something pretty soon. 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.520 Dawn is a friend of Caroline's and was also her 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.840 divorce attorney. She mentioned earlier in the series that she 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.840 doesn't usually represent friends, but she made an exception for 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:53.599 Caroline out of concern. 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.640 For the kids, who she knew well. 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.319 Don saw the impact of Joel's absence on Nicole. 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.559 To see Nicole really struggle to not see her dad 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.800 or have that relationship anymore, it was just so jarring 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:15.640 to her. She still desired that relationship, but Joel really 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:17.840 just pulled completely away. 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:23.040 Jen Forrester and her husband Tom are among Caroline's closest friends. 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.240 Jen also was disappointed that Joel didn't try harder. 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.319 The fact that he kind of just gave up was 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:37.560 really surprising. He hasn't tried to repair the relationship, and frankly, 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.160 as a parent, why would you give up? I would 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:45.560 never give up on my kids. I would say I'm 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:47.920 still here for you, I still love you, I will 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:49.080 always be here for you. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.800 How can you know that your child is out there 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.120 and not want to be around your child or like 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:57.959 know what's happening with them. 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.319 Nicole thought Joel would at the very least try to 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.320 connect for the big moments, the milestones. 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:11.520 And everything that Joel did. One of the hardest days 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:16.160 was her graduation. You know, I left that morning because 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:19.440 I wanted to get a lay necklace for her to wear. 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:21.400 I wanted to get her favorite coffee and have it 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.720 waiting for her when she woke up. And when I 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:29.439 came home, she was already up and there was this 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:36.480 envelope taped to our front door, and her little face, 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.640 Oh god, it just kills me. She just had this 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.560 desperation in her face, like she just was hoping for 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.400 it and she said, oh, my gosh, is that from 0:12:48.400 --> 0:13:07.720 my dad. 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.160 On the morning of Nichole's high school graduation, Caroline found 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.960 her daughter staring at an envelope that had been left 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:18.840 on their front door. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.440 She just had this desperation in her face, like she 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.760 just was hoping for it. And she said, oh, my gosh, 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:30.400 is that from my dad? And I said, I don't know. 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.920 And when I handed it to her and she saw 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.480 that it was signed by our neighbors, God, it was 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.600 one of the worst things to ever see. 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:40.880 It was horrible. 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.400 You just saw her completely deflate this day that she 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:53.160 had just worked so hard to celebrate. She just didn't 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.920 recover from that day. You just saw her with this 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:04.280 solemn expression and just flated. Every time she opened the 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.439 door just a little bit, another lie would come up, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.640 you know. On her graduation. That night, she wanted to 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:14.559 go out to some parties with some of her friends, 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.320 and before she left, she said, I'm going to text 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:22.760 my dad and I said, okay, that's completely your decision. 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:27.080 I wanted her to continue that contact, and she sent 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:33.080 just the most simplistic text and just said I graduated today, 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.440 that's it. And he took a while to respond and 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:39.920 then eventually said, oh, I know, I'm so proud of you. 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.000 But minutes later I get this rage text from him 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.240 blaming me for not reminding him. And you just saw 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.440 her pining after just this hope, like just be different. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.120 It wasn't just Nicole who was in pain. Caroline's friends 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:02.840 watched her suffering too. Joel wasn't around anymore, but every 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:07.920 few weeks a new secret was revealed. Here's Caroline's friend Jen. 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.880 There was an incident where Caroline had gotten a text 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:18.920 message from someone. This person had basically told her about 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:23.560 a friend of Caroline's who had been intimately involved with Joel, 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:29.880 and that was a rough day. You'd see her start 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:36.320 to heal, she relaxed, you'd see her start to move forward, 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.040 and then something else would happen. And this was one 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.240 of those instances, like it's not just taking two steps 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:48.040 forward and one step back. Every time something came up, 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.600 it just ripped the band aid off again. 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.960 As people in the community learned about Joel and caroline separation, 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.560 they felt more inclined to contact Caroline with. 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:01.080 Detail of Joel's affairs. 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.520 It felt like every day she learned of new affairs 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.720 that had been going on right under her nose. 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:08.800 Sometimes for years. 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:12.880 He had a long term affair with a hairstylist. He 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.680 sent inappropriate texts to a local college professor who Caroline 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.160 worked with. He'd had sex with, an insurance agent, a 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:25.880 prison guard, a nurse. Caroline was re traumatized every single time. 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:30.560 With each new revelation, her entire life was turned into 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.480 community gossip around town, in the halls of the Colorado 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.080 Springs Police Department, and even at work. 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:39.040 Caroline's not a. 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.120 Cop, but she does work in law enforcement. Her job 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.040 requires her to interact with police officers all the time. 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.480 They come into my place of employment and I have 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:50.800 to pass them, I have to interact with them. I 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.720 see them on elevators, I see them in the hallway. Meanwhile, 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.560 I've heard the snickering. There's been blatant comments said back 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.120 and forth in front of me, where they know I'm 0:16:58.120 --> 0:16:59.240 an earshot. 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:04.320 I was humiliated. 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:09.399 To walk into work knowing that rumors were starting to 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.440 fly and spread about what he had done. 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:18.440 Caroline had to face the consequences of Joel's actions every day, 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.480 and so did the kids. They continued to find out 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.879 new information, and instead of letting themselves be surprised or 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.880 hear it through a third party. They wanted to control 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:31.920 how and when they heard things. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.160 Really, it was the only thing they had control over. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:37.040 Here's their son. 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:43.360 I wanted to know everything, complete transparency. If someone were 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:47.920 to say that my mom shared too much, I think 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:52.439 that'd just be continuing this deception. I'd rather find out 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.800 for my mom so we wouldn't be blindsided randomly in 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:01.679 the community. Nobody would want. That was hurt, but it 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:05.040 was powerful and it was needed. That was the only 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:05.840 way to move forward. 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:13.080 The rumors were inescapable. Caroline's friend Jen recalls a day 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:18.880 Caroline received particularly hurtful news about Joel. She couldn't even 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:20.560 talk to anyone about it. 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:21.359 It was too much. 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:29.360 I think emotionally, the anger, the hurt, the sadness all 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:34.359 comes back. I mean she spent four days in bed 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:39.160 reliving all of it. She basically said, don't come over. 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:43.600 I don't want to see anybody. I cannot deal with 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.719 anything right. So Tom and I dropped off dinner on 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.320 her doorstep. You know, hey, we're here for you if 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:50.680 you need us. 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:57.919 All her grief, heartbreak, shame, and humiliation was unfair. Joel 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.320 was able to leave and she left was so much 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:06.560 destruction when all she did was love and trust her husband. 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.359 All of this got me thinking about consequences justice. Really, 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.760 you're going to hear different perspectives on what consequences mean 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.240 throughout this episode. 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:21.719 But I wanted to start with Caroline. 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.880 What would justice feel like for her? 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.240 Turns out, it's pretty simple. 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:34.000 It would feel fantastic to be able to walk into 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.000 professional meetings, to be able to walk into my own employment, 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.240 to be able to be in the community and not 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.919 have Copslee think can make blowjob comments next to me. 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.560 She doesn't want to feel like the butt of a joke, 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:48.439 and she wants the. 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.959 Support of the people at Joel's job, people she has 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:53.520 supported for two decades. 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.840 On a very very personal note, you know the people 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:02.080 who surrounded him at his profession. The deputy chief is 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:06.680 my son's godfather. I have not heard one word from him, 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.119 and the mix of all of this, I have not 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:15.119 heard one word from any of the people who my 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:17.680 kids and I were ever there for them in their 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:22.719 time of need. Not one person has reached out to 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:27.800 say are you and the kids okay? Not one. 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.320 Joel was able to walk away from the mess without 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:38.679 being terminated. Why because instead of being fired, he retired. 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.800 In an earlier episode, you heard Joel meet with his boss, 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.679 Commander Jeff Strawsner. This was at the conclusion of Joel's 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:51.400 internal affairs investigation for having sex in his police car 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:56.440 while on duty. Strawsner found conclusively that Joel had violated 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:01.439 five Colorado Springs Police Department policies, including departing from the 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.879 truth lying he let Joel know he was going to 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:07.440 recommend him for termination. 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.280 The legislative intent is very clear that we cannot allow 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:15.320 peace officers remain employed. 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.160 When they lied during an ia investigation. 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.639 Joel's career as a cop would be over. The department 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:24.240 set another meeting for two weeks later to make it 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:29.080 all final, but that meeting never occurred because instead of 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.480 facing termination, Joel chose a path that ensured he'd never 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:38.600 hear the words you're fired. He retired, and just like that, 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:44.200 his work problems vanished. A letter about his pending termination 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:48.240 was replaced by an email congratulating him on his decades 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:52.119 of service just days after his meeting with Commander Strassner. 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:55.359 How did this happen? 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.200 Well, our team has been investigating it and the first 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:04.680 thing we discovered is that this happens all the time. Dan, 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:08.440 a former CSPD officer, said it's common for cops under 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:10.280 investigation to retire. 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:13.720 Honestly, I was surprised he didn't retire like the day 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.399 this came to light. I figured if he knew that 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:20.840 this was true and knew how it could end, I'm 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:24.160 truly surprised that it just wasn't happened immediately. 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.840 It appears that Joel waited until after the meeting with 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:31.960 Internal Affairs and Commander Strassner, when he knew for certain 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:34.480 they were onto him and there was no talking his 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:38.360 way out of it. But before he officially left the CSPD, 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.480 he took FMLA, or family medical leave, and went off 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:47.879 to rehab, where his sexual escapades only continued. In taking FMLA, 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:50.000 Joel stretched his time. 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:53.640 I hate to say it, when some guys are circling 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:56.080 the drain in their career and getting ready to get fired, 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:58.720 they will drag it out as long as possible because 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:01.760 they're collecting a paycheck and they might as well as 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:06.720 long as they can. And it irks you when you're 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.800 sitting up there knowing that we're paying somebody that is 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:11.920 more than likely going to get fired and did some 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:13.000 pretty bad stuff. 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:17.639 We also found this troubling. Joel had sex in his 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:22.080 police car on the taxpayer's dime, and his consequences amounted 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:24.520 into an early retirement, a handshake and a. 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:25.160 Pat on the back. 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:29.840 We contacted Jeff Strassner about it via email. He's now 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:33.439 the chief of another police department in Colorado. He pointed 0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:37.719 out that retirement is managed by a separate agency. Here's 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:38.600 some of that email. 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:42.800 As I am sure you are aware, he retired prior 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:46.000 to discipline, and retirement is a process managed by the 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:51.240 Colorado Fire Police Pension Association. The department has no control 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:54.159 if someone decides to retire prior to the execution of 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:58.000 discipline and does not have the authority to intervene in 0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:02.919 the retirement process. It is common for retirement eligible officers 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:06.280 who see the writing on the wall to decide to 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:09.120 retire rather than go through the termination process. 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:13.639 The police department wasn't about to interfere with the penchin Association. 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:17.399 They don't have the power to. It seems like once 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:21.720 Joel chose to retire and took medical leave, he became untouchable. 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:25.800 It turns out we weren't the first to investigate this 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:27.159 pattern at the CSPD. 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:33.119 I'm Carl Rose. I'm a multimedia journalist at Rocky Mountain PBS. 0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:38.159 Carle reports on the criminal justice system in Colorado. I 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:40.480 sat down with her when I was in Colorado Springs. 0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:45.160 Her team uncovered some alarming patterns among Colorado cops, which 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:48.080 we'll get to in a moment, but first I wanted 0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:50.440 to share one case that tipped her team off to 0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:51.920 a larger problem. 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:56.399 Alexander Canoyer was a police officer for the Colorado Springs 0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:59.600 Department and he resigned while under investigation. 0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:05.439 In twelve Canoyer was caught having a sexual relationship with 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:11.240 the subject of a criminal investigation. He left wall under investigation, 0:25:11.760 --> 0:25:15.720 and that was perfectly legal, but he was never decertified, 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:19.200 meaning he could still work as a cop in Colorado. 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:21.760 Then he was hired at the Cripple Creek Police Department 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:24.960 and that's where he met Kelly Davis. 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:28.800 Davis came into the department to report a possible crime, 0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:32.200 but then Canoy started doing exactly what he did back 0:25:32.240 --> 0:25:37.119 in Colorado Springs. He started messaging her daily and the 0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:38.960 messages became sexual. 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:42.800