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Speaker 1: Welcome back to a numbers game with Ryan Gradowski. It

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Speaker 1: is Thursday, September twenty fifth. We are forty days from

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty five elections. There were a few special

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Speaker 1: elections that happened this past week. Republicans held onto the

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Speaker 1: mayorship in Mobile, Alabama, which doesn't seem like a big deal,

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Speaker 1: but Republicans hold so few mayorships that anything is a

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Speaker 1: big deal when it comes to winning a mayor's office

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Speaker 1: With the GOP. Republicans won a special election in the

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Speaker 1: Georgia State Senate where Jason Dickerson b Deborah Shingley by

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Speaker 1: twenty three points. It was though a Trump plus thirty

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Speaker 1: four districts, so it's nothing to ride home about. Over

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Speaker 1: in Arizona, a Delta Grivlla won the seat once held

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Speaker 1: by her father, Raoul, who died in the seat back

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Speaker 1: in January. She won by a very large forty two.

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Speaker 1: This was a better result than either her father received

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Speaker 1: in the last few elections since the twenty twenty election

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Speaker 1: and Kamala Harris. These are not great results for the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party, though none of them were so prizing. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't like a big shock. The Mobile Alabama mayorship is

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Speaker 1: actually probably the biggest deal of the three. Many people

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Speaker 1: at Hope that in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination,

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Speaker 1: Republicans would start voting in these special elections in larger

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Speaker 1: numbers like presidential numbers, and that would have definitely reversed

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Speaker 1: the trends in these seats. You know, had Republicans turned

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Speaker 1: out at presidential levels in the congressional election in Arizona,

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Speaker 1: Republicans would have absolutely won that. That didn't happen, though,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't seem like it's happening. Next Monday's episode

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Speaker 1: is going to specifically focus on the Virginia elections coming up,

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Speaker 1: because there's the Virginia, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, and obviously

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Speaker 1: in New York City, but Virginia and a deep dive

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Speaker 1: into Virginia is going to be taken place next Monday,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to be a rundown what's happening in

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Speaker 1: New Jersey and Pennsylvania. But I want to keep you

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Speaker 1: guys attuned to these elections, which are indicators of how

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Speaker 1: people feel going forward. So many of you run down

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Speaker 1: of those elections. About a deep dive into the Virginia election,

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Speaker 1: some people have asked, what are the elections in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: I keep talking about Pennsylvania. Has the state Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: up for a statewide vote? Now? A lot of people

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Speaker 1: like Ryan, I don't care. I don't live in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: What do I care about the state Supreme Court? The

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Speaker 1: State Supreme Court is very important because they decide on

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Speaker 1: congressional lines in Pennsylvania. Republicans lost a lot of congressional

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Speaker 1: seats from the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, which is majority Democrat.

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Speaker 1: Sat there and said that the Lions had to be

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Speaker 1: give Democrats more seats. So the reason the House is

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Speaker 1: much closer than it is because Republicans pibly lost three

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Speaker 1: congressional seats in Pennsylvania, and going into twenty thirty twenty

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Speaker 1: thirty two, when redistioning will happen again, Pennsylvania is likely

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Speaker 1: to lose one more congressional seat as the population has

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Speaker 1: not grown fast enough relative to the rest of the country.

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Speaker 1: So those Supreme Court races there's multiple will matter a lot.

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Speaker 1: I know that local politics is not the sexiest type

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Speaker 1: of politics, but they matter a lot more to your

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Speaker 1: daily life than in the Senate, the presidency, all these

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Speaker 1: other things. So they just matter, like they will really

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Speaker 1: really matter. And I love local polities where I got

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Speaker 1: my start. I will say one thing briefly about what's

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Speaker 1: happening before I go into my main topic. When some

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Speaker 1: sears really seems like she's losing momentum in this race,

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna give the reason why I think that

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Speaker 1: she's losing momentum next on Monday's episode. But there seems

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Speaker 1: to be momentum building for Jack Chitarelli over New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: Now he's still definitely not the favorite to win, but

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Speaker 1: he earned a very important endorsement. He earned the endorsement

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Speaker 1: of the Fraternal Order of Police, which did not endorse

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Speaker 1: at all in twenty twenty one, and endorse Democrat film

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Speaker 1: Murphy in twenty seventeen. He had that great poll, he

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Speaker 1: had a very strong debate performance. These are the kinds

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Speaker 1: of things you want to see happen break in your

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Speaker 1: favor in the last few weeks of an election for

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Speaker 1: a surprising victory. I'm not saying he's gonna be victorious.

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Speaker 1: I'm not giving a addiction at all about it. I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying these are the things if you're looking for

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Speaker 1: something to break, this is when breaking matters the most

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Speaker 1: because people are paying attention going back to the Charlie

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Speaker 1: Kirk of it all, which because everyone was hoping that

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Speaker 1: his assassination should alter the state of politics and maybe

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Speaker 1: will long term. I mean, I'm not judge, I'm not

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Speaker 1: canceling it out. I'm just saying these special elections is

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Speaker 1: not really motivating people to go and vote. But there's

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Speaker 1: also a significant number of people who are hoping that

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Speaker 1: Charlie's legacy not only alters the state of politics, but

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Speaker 1: he also alters the state of religion. They hope that

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Speaker 1: there is a religious revival because as a result of

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Speaker 1: his death, if this leads to a movement that people

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Speaker 1: seek out a church and a faith. I spoke to

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Speaker 1: several evangelical Christians, including some who work for me, and

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Speaker 1: they've all said they were excited to see people go

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Speaker 1: back to church after Charlie's assassination. I know somebody who

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Speaker 1: had not been in church in twenty years who went

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Speaker 1: after Charlie was assassinated, and she cried when she went.

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Speaker 1: She said it was such a moving experience and religious

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Speaker 1: engagement is a great thing. Data shows that regular religious

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Speaker 1: attendance promotes higher levels of chattable giving. They it produces

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Speaker 1: more intact families, lower rates of depression, and greater community cohesion.

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Speaker 1: Even if you are not particularly religious, you enjoy immense

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Speaker 1: benefits from a society with a higher church attendance. There's also,

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Speaker 1: obviously the religious element of it all. Christians hope that

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Speaker 1: you will pursue faith in order to save your soul,

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Speaker 1: which is a great thing if you believe in that.

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Speaker 1: If you are a religious person, you see people go

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Speaker 1: to church, you are happy that the army of God

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Speaker 1: is becoming larger. Some liberal commentators note that they felt

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Speaker 1: very alienated by the whole experience of watching Kirk's memorial.

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Speaker 1: Mass Don Lemon, formerly from CNN, said that it was

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Speaker 1: really an event for Christian nationalism. Writer Thomas Cheterton Williams

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Speaker 1: said that he felt a strange watching the whole memorial

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Speaker 1: and said he'd feel more comfortable in Greece than he

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Speaker 1: would at that place in Arizona. Philosophy professor Dan Williams

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Speaker 1: from the University of Sussex over in England, he said

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Speaker 1: that he felt extremely culturally distant in this world, he said,

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Speaker 1: and I think this is an important quote, he said

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Speaker 1: quote watching the Charlie Kirk memorial. I am struck by

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Speaker 1: how extremely culturally distant I feel from that world. Everything

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Speaker 1: about it feels alien. The aesthetic symbol is a music, rituals, mythology, gurus, ideas,

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Speaker 1: and norms. It feels like being exposed to a culture

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Speaker 1: and symbolic universe of a distant tribe. If I reflect

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Speaker 1: on this, it occurs to me that this feeling must

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Speaker 1: be symmetrical, that they must view the kind of cultural

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Speaker 1: universe I inhabit as similarly alien and in a strange way,

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Speaker 1: Despite opposing almost everything about this political project, this reflection

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Speaker 1: makes me feel more empathy for what the project must

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Speaker 1: feel like from withinside. So looking at these three comments,

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Speaker 1: and I know Dan is from England, so it's much

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Speaker 1: different than America. I respect Thomas Chatterton Williams the most

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Speaker 1: because I feel like it was not just Respectulho was

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Speaker 1: acknowledging a divorce from a big part of America. Though

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Speaker 1: I don't know why you're commenting on American politics if

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Speaker 1: you feel that alienated from you know, a giant portion

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Speaker 1: of the population. Don Lemon is a paranoid attention seeker,

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Speaker 1: so I don't think of anything that he ever says

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Speaker 1: as being serious, all he does is promote fear porn

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Speaker 1: on the left. But the British professor I use that

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Speaker 1: quote because I can't emphasize enough about how much he

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Speaker 1: misses the mark. The feeling of alienation that secular people

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Speaker 1: feel towards christian is not symmetrical to how Christians feel

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Speaker 1: about secular people, because unless you are a hermit who

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Speaker 1: lives in a cave, Christians and religious people are bombarded

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Speaker 1: with secular messaging all day, every day their entire life.

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Speaker 1: There are bakers and nuns who have been mired in

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Speaker 1: lawsuits for years for not baking a cake for a

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Speaker 1: gay wedding, or you know, giving out condoms to their employees,

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Speaker 1: or paying for employees to have birth control, which they

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Speaker 1: don't believe in the case of the nuns. Religious people

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Speaker 1: are not just bombarded by the media and tech companies

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Speaker 1: with secular messaging, but they are not allowed to live

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Speaker 1: alone or live lives within communities that are divorced from

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Speaker 1: the secular world. And I know many liberals feel that

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Speaker 1: religious people want to control their lives. One of my

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Speaker 1: very good friends, who's a woman, former college professor, a

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Speaker 1: lesbian who I respect deeply, and I really love our friendship.

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Speaker 1: But she said, you know, Christians, she said on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: Christians are trying to run my life. I am not

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Speaker 1: saying that one side is one hundred percent right and

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Speaker 1: the other one is one hundred percent wrong. But part

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Speaker 1: of this conflict, especially when it comes to religion and

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Speaker 1: political power, is because government is so large, individual liberties

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Speaker 1: have become very limited. So we're inevitably going to be

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Speaker 1: trampling on each other's right to exist in our own

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Speaker 1: world or in the world and the communities that we

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Speaker 1: see fit to belong to. I will say that since

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Speaker 1: Charlie's murder, I have been thinking a lot about my

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Speaker 1: own faith a lot more. I'm a practicing Catholic. I

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Speaker 1: have always shielded away from speaking about that in public.

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Speaker 1: I gave one interview to a Christian newspaper after being

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Speaker 1: canceled from CNN. But I was always taught you never

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Speaker 1: discussed religion and politics, and let's face it, I failed

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Speaker 1: very badly at one of those things and keeping that

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Speaker 1: out of the public. But I'll say this in my

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Speaker 1: own personal life. If you go to dinner with me,

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Speaker 1: I don't bring up politics unless I know you're like

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Speaker 1: in the business like political consulting, business like I am,

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Speaker 1: or you asked me about it first, I don't bring

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Speaker 1: up politics. I was raised differently on that, and I

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Speaker 1: have questioned since his murder whether that serves me well

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Speaker 1: keeping those conversations within me. I know, keeping the peace

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Speaker 1: in exchange for not having an open dialogue about faith

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean you have to browbeat the people over the

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Speaker 1: head with it. But I think that maybe maybe we

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Speaker 1: people should be talking about it more. I'm exploring this

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Speaker 1: in my head. I'm exploring how to navigate that in

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Speaker 1: a different capacity than maybe I did in the past.

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Speaker 1: I know I'm not the only one who's thought about this.

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Speaker 1: I've had conversations with friends of mine who think about

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Speaker 1: this in a different way and exploring the idea of

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Speaker 1: faith and how what it means in their lives. A

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Speaker 1: Pew Research report from back in February, months before Charlie

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Speaker 1: was assassinated, explored the idea of religion and found that

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Speaker 1: the number of people identifying as Christians, which had declined

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Speaker 1: for decades, having a reversal around twenty twenty two. According

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Speaker 1: to the Pew Research study, sixty three percent of Americans

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Speaker 1: identify as Christians, which is around the same number as

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, so there was no more massive decline. And

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Speaker 1: ninety two percent of Americans believe in either God, a soul,

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Speaker 1: an afterlife, or some kind of spiritual presence beyond the

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Speaker 1: natural world. Very few are just true like atheists. They

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Speaker 1: believe in something bigger than this. That Pew study also

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Speaker 1: noticed that people born between the years nineteen ninety and

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six had a pretty significant shift in

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Speaker 1: those identifying as Christian. For those born in the nineties,

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Speaker 1: the number grew from fifty two to fifty six percent,

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Speaker 1: and from those born between two thousand and two thousand

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Speaker 1: and six, that number increased from forty five to fifty

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Speaker 1: one percent between twenty twenty two and twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: So if there is a Christian revivalism, it's something that

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Speaker 1: may predate Charlie. It may be turbocharged because with Charlie.

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Speaker 1: Other really important things in that study is that young

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Speaker 1: men are more likely to identify as Christian than young

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Speaker 1: women people born in the two thousands. That's the first

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Speaker 1: time ever that men are overly stating this over women.

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Speaker 1: And I want to partially them just say identifying as

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Speaker 1: Christian and practicing the faith are two very separate things. Right,

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Speaker 1: Young people are increasingly likely to say that they are Christian,

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Speaker 1: but they are not going to church in the same

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Speaker 1: percentages as some older generations, and they are not praying daily.

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Speaker 1: I think that all this conversation about religion and the

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Speaker 1: idea of a religious revival and the idea of what

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Speaker 1: that means in society, that is going to determine a

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Speaker 1: lot of our politics, especially within the Republican Party, going

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Speaker 1: forward in a country that has been moving towards secularization.

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Speaker 1: For you know, it feels like time in memorium, but

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Speaker 1: probably for the last half century, or maybe a little

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Speaker 1: longer than that. I decided to have an expert to

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Speaker 1: discuss religion with me. He's coming on next Stay tuned

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Speaker 1: with me on today's episode is Ryan Birch. He is

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Speaker 1: a professor of practice at the Dawnforth Center of Religion

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Speaker 1: and Politics at Washington University at Saint Louis and the

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Speaker 1: research director at the Faith Counts. Ryan, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being on this podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: So, Professor. When when Charlie Kirk's murder happened, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of talk about the hopes of a religious revival,

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Speaker 1: especially from a lot of evangelicals and even some young

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Speaker 1: people that I know. Back in February, there was report

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Speaker 1: by p Research showing that many young people were increasingly

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Speaker 1: identifying as being Christian. How real according to the data

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Speaker 1: you've seen, is that trend?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So what we know is that the share of

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Speaker 3: Americans who are Christians decline from ninety percent to sixty

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Speaker 3: three percent between nineteen seventy two and about twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: or so, and really the number cent has kind of

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Speaker 3: hung there last couple of years. As far as young people,

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Speaker 3: what we know is that the rise of the nuns

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Speaker 3: among them has stopped increasing so rapidly. So, for instance,

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Speaker 3: people born in two thousand are probably just as likely

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Speaker 3: to be non religious as someone born in nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 3: which is sort of a big deal if you think

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Speaker 3: about it, because every you know, generation is significantly less

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Speaker 3: religious than the prior generation. So the fact that slowing

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Speaker 3: down is a big deal. But I've been asking a

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Speaker 3: lot about you know, what's what's the impact Charlie Kirk's

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Speaker 3: going to have. I'll just say a couple of things

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Speaker 3: about that.

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Speaker 1: One.

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Speaker 2: It's way too early to know, you know, we don't.

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Speaker 3: We don't do polling on religion, big, big surveys on

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Speaker 3: religion once a year.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's what you get. There's really no.

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Speaker 3: Point in doing it once a month or once a week.

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Speaker 3: That the cost to do that would be astronomical. The

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Speaker 3: value of it would not be that high.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So and even then we would I would need to

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Speaker 3: see several surveys that all came to the same conclusion.

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Speaker 3: There's an upswing in religiosity among young people. And here's

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Speaker 3: the other thing, and people don't realize this. There has

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Speaker 3: not been a single event in the last fifty years

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Speaker 3: that's had a demonstrable and durable increase on religiosity in America.

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Speaker 3: I mean nine to eleven happened, right, We're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: America became a lot more religious, it became slightly more religious,

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Speaker 3: and then by two thousand and two, early two thousand

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Speaker 3: and two, all that had faded away back to baseline. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, the preponderance evidence says that whatever happened with

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Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk is definitely not going to lead to a

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Speaker 3: long term sort of quote unquote revival in religion in America.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I read your tweet about that where you said

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Speaker 1: there and said there's been no singular incident, that reverse

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Speaker 1: trends only had brief incidences and then reverse the norm.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I think a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: hoping that it's not and it then is so much

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Speaker 1: a movement. You said in one of your reports that

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Speaker 1: eighteen or thirty five year old Christians are more likely

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Speaker 1: to be a weekly church goer than than they were

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Speaker 1: than that age demographic was in two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 1: But older people kind of have given up on going

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Speaker 1: to mass. Can you explain that trend?

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Speaker 2: M this is?

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Speaker 3: So this is one of those like the math. You

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Speaker 3: got to think about the math for a second. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So overall religiosity has declined, but among young people who

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Speaker 3: still identify as Protestant or Catholic, they're more likely to

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Speaker 3: go to church on a regular basis today than young

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Speaker 3: people who are Protestaner or Catholic in two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 3: And the reason for that is because the share of

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Speaker 3: young people who identify as Christian has gone down the

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Speaker 3: last fifteen years. So the people who are left over

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Speaker 3: are the true believers like you.

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Speaker 2: It's I tell.

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Speaker 3: People like, imagine you're an eighteen year old and you're

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Speaker 3: sitting in high school and you call yourself an evangelical.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to call yourself evangelical because you kind

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Speaker 3: of believe in evangelicalism, like because you might have someone

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Speaker 3: who's trained sitting next to you and a gay guy

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Speaker 3: sitting behind you, you know what I mean, Like if

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Speaker 3: you say that, you really believe that to be true

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Speaker 3: and you're all the way in. So among young people

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Speaker 3: who are still Christian, which is a smaller number overall,

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Speaker 3: the ones who are there are actually more devout because

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Speaker 3: it's sort of the marginal people who have sort of

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Speaker 3: left among older people, that hasn't happened because Christianity still

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Speaker 3: has a lot of cultural cachet among older folks. There's

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Speaker 3: less stigma against being a Christian among you know, sixty

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Speaker 3: seventy year olds. So I think that's the reason is

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Speaker 3: you're seeing that young people who are still there, who

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Speaker 3: still say they're Christian, are actually more Christian than Christians

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Speaker 3: were fifteen twenty years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And also, people get stuck. And this is not

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Speaker 1: just a problem of political commentators, but this is a

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Speaker 1: problem with people in general. Is people get stuck in

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Speaker 1: a certain age in which they came of age. So

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Speaker 1: when I think of someone who is eighty, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: of someone who was born in nineteen twenty, because my

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Speaker 1: brain froze in the year two thousand as instinctively as

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Speaker 1: that's the year that, like nineteen ninety was only ten

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Speaker 1: years ago, until I think about it and like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: that's actually a long time ago now. So when I

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Speaker 1: think of somebody who is seventy, now, I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: a baby boomer. You know, and I said this in

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Speaker 1: my audience all the time. You know, Archie Bunker is

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Speaker 1: dead and Meathead is a senior citizen. So who is

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Speaker 1: a senior citizen and who is voting as a senior

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Speaker 1: citizen is considerably left wing from when George W. Bush

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Speaker 1: was running for president. And I think that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Do you find that young people, I mean, you mentioned

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Speaker 1: higher church attendance, and there's a Pew study about identifying

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Speaker 1: as Christian. Do you think that there is a certain,

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Speaker 1: especially in conservative circles, a young amount of young people

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Speaker 1: increasingly identifying as Christian, not necessarily practicing, but identifying as

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Speaker 1: kind of like, well, I'm conservative and I'm Christian. But

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Speaker 1: they may not pray daily, they may not go to church.

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Speaker 1: Is that. I mean, that's how I interpreted the Pew study.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I'm wrong, No, I think that for some people,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's like, if I'm conservative, I have to

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Speaker 3: be a Christian, especially if you're white.

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Speaker 2: Like it's like, to go back to Charlie Kirk.

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Speaker 3: If you look at early stuff, he was sort of

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Speaker 3: more like an old school like non religious libertarian, tea

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Speaker 3: party kind of Republican. But as he aged, he sort

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Speaker 3: of aged into a more you know, Christian conservative style Republican.

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Speaker 3: And I think I think a lot of Republicans end

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Speaker 3: up doing this, like Elon Musk ended up doing this, right.

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Speaker 3: He was an atheist for a long time, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, hey, Christianity is great, and he's like praying

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Speaker 3: the Lord's prayer. If you hang around a lot of

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Speaker 3: people in your tribe who are religious, you know, the

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Speaker 3: likelihood is that you at least open yourself up to

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Speaker 3: the idea of religion. And people want to live unified lives, right,

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Speaker 3: They want everything in their life to line up behind

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Speaker 3: and in that unifying force. Unfortunately, in an American life today

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Speaker 3: is politics. So if I'm a Republican, you know, I

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Speaker 3: want to be a Christian I want to say I'm rural.

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Speaker 3: I want to say I'm a conservative because that's what

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Speaker 3: those people are.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, you want to It's like when that song

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Speaker 1: came out about Richmond and north of Richmond and yeah,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of wealthy people who live north of Richmond,

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Speaker 1: Virginia were all playing that song, and I'm like, it's

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Speaker 1: a good I mean, it's an interesting song, but you

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Speaker 1: are definitely those kinds of peace. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you're identifying with. What I think is a misinterpretation of religion,

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Speaker 1: especially to people who are not particularly religious. Is they

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Speaker 1: view church attendants, especially church attendants, but also religious affiliation

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Speaker 1: as being something for poor people. That is not the

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Speaker 1: case usually, and typically people who are college educated and

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Speaker 1: higher than median earned income are likely to participate in

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Speaker 1: religion and go to church, specifically go to church. That

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Speaker 1: was the truth that you know, when like Bowling Alone

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Speaker 1: was written in stuff, Is that still the truth? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: No, I think this is if I want to like

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Speaker 3: feel if I'm feeling bad one day and I want

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Speaker 3: to get a lot of retweets, I just post a

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Speaker 3: graph that shows educated people are more religious than not

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Speaker 3: educated people in America.

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Speaker 2: Because it's true like a cause.

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Speaker 3: When it comes to a church attendance, the people who

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Speaker 3: are most likely to attend church this Sunday are people

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Speaker 3: with graduate degrees. The least likely are those who didn't

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Speaker 3: finish high school. The most likely people identify as non

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Speaker 3: religious are those who have the lowest level of education.

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Speaker 3: People with master's degrees are the least likely to be

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Speaker 3: non religious in America today. Now in Europe it's the reverse.

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Speaker 3: Educated people are less religious in Europe, But in America

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Speaker 3: it's the and I think and people like see this

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Speaker 3: in their I think they're rid too much, Carl Marx

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Speaker 3: is the problem, like religion is the opiate of the masses, right,

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Speaker 3: it keeps it keeps stupid people down and happy in

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Speaker 3: they're in their in their their bondage, you know, is

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Speaker 3: what Marx would say. Right, Well, guess what the data

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Speaker 3: actually says that, you know, religiosity and education are related

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Speaker 3: to this idea called pro sociality or pro trust. And

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Speaker 3: the more you trust people, the more you likely you

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Speaker 3: are to go to college, because guess what going to

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Speaker 3: college is really an exercise and trust your roommate, your professor,

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Speaker 3: your classmates, the administration.

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Speaker 2: You got trust all those people to get through college.

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Speaker 3: But you know what church is, it's an exercise and trust, right,

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Speaker 3: It's it's sharing your life with other people. It's like

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Speaker 3: giving money to an organization where you're not one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent share where it's going to go. So I think

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Speaker 3: it's it's this. It's this sort of web of causality

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Speaker 3: between education, religiosity, pro sociality, pro trust that. And I

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Speaker 3: think what we're seeing more and more in America is

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Speaker 3: that low education people are less trusting people, and therefore

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Speaker 3: they're dropping out of American society, not just education, but

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Speaker 3: also politics, also religion, also all the social structures that

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Speaker 3: sort of bind us together. And those are the kind

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Speaker 3: of people that really worry me, to be honest, you know,

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Speaker 3: because they're not they don't have governors and they don't

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Speaker 3: have guardrails in their lives that tell them like these

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Speaker 3: are acceptable things to believe and say and do. And

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't want to extrapolate too much, but

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Speaker 3: if you look a lot of these these these shooters

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Speaker 3: you're shooting incidents, I feel like a lot of those

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Speaker 3: people fall in that.

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Speaker 2: Well, what do I do all day?

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Speaker 3: I spend a lot of time on YouTube or a

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Speaker 3: lot of time on social media, and I'm not part

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Speaker 3: of any social I don't touch grass, right, I live

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Speaker 3: all virtually. That cannot be good for our souls. I

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Speaker 3: just I can't believe that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know it's funny. You know, I worked

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Speaker 1: for Senator I worked for now Vice President J. Dvancement,

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Speaker 1: he was a Senate candidate, and I remember reading He'llbilly

435
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 1: elogy the first time in him mentioning that his grandmother,

436
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 1: who was a lower income person without a college degree,

437
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 1: I don't even she had a high school degree but

438
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 1: never really went to church, but read the Bible all

439
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: the time. And it was a very kind of personalized

440
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 1: relationship with religion versus JD. Now, who's a church going Catholic.

441
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: And I think that that is the truth for the

442
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 1: most high most people of a certain things social trust religion.

443
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,360
Speaker 1: I don't do you think religion creates social trust or

444
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 1: is it a chicken the egg thing where you have

445
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: to have high levels of trust to participate in religion.

446
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 2: I think it's both, actually right.

447
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 3: I think it takes a certain level threshold to get

448
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 3: you in the church the first time. But then I

449
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 3: think I think what people don't realize is the more

450
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 3: you're there, it almost naturally builds trust in other people

451
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 3: because you get to know them on a personal level.

452
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 3: Now it's not just like the faithless, nameless religious people.

453
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 3: It's oh, there's there's stand and there's Bob, and there's

454
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 3: hell in at church and they're great people because I've

455
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 3: known them for three of And that's actually what my

456
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 3: new book's about, by the way, is like religion used

457
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: to be a great mixing place in Americans. It's called

458
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 3: the vanishing middle. How the kind of moderate congregation search

459
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 3: democracy face. I'm going to bring them up at the

460
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 3: end of the answer. Yeah, like the book for right now.

461
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, Like I think it's like so important

462
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 3: to be in spaces with people who are different than you, vote,

463
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 3: different believe different, different age groups. Right, Like, we need

464
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 3: all that stuff. And the thing is, where else do

465
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 3: you get that in American life Now? No Elks, no Moose,

466
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,479
Speaker 3: no bowling League, no boy Scouts, none of that stuff.

467
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 3: So if we lose that, we don't have a great

468
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 3: mixing place in American society.

469
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I find when people make a church,

470
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: like I always attended mass growing up, but we were

471
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 1: not when we're Catholic, When we were not. We went

472
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: to church and we went home and then we did

473
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: things with our family. People who make the church kind

474
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: of not the center. I don't I don't want to

475
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: over emphasize like the center of their world. But they're

476
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 1: part of like church organizations, and they spend time in

477
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: like the auditorium after church because they're doing social mixers

478
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: or whatnot, and beforehand and Sunday school and all the

479
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: babysitting organizations. And I've been all over the country because

480
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: of political campaigns, and it is a the church is

481
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: a center for that holds community together in a lot

482
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: of different ways. What are societal benefits of a high

483
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: church community?

484
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 3: I think first was tolerance, Like the very first paper

485
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 3: I re published was about what aspects of religiosity drive

486
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 3: up political tolerance, by the way, is just putting up

487
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 3: with ideas you disagree with, just saying that people have

488
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 3: the right to say things that you don't agree with,

489
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 3: have books in the library you don't agree with. And

490
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 3: among the aspects of religion, the the jd Vance Mom story,

491
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 3: like she doesn't go to church read the Bible a lot.

492
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 3: Biblical literalists were the least tolerant people, but people who

493
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 3: went to church on a regular basis were the most

494
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 3: tolerant people. So like religion has these countervailing forces, right,

495
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 3: part of it makes you less tolerant, but other parts

496
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: of it makes you more tolerant. Unfortunately, guess which ones

497
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 3: dropped the most in America in the last fifty years.

498
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 3: It's the attendance piece, the piece that we need the

499
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: most to generate these feelings of democracy. So I think

500
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: from that perspective by itself, but also, you know, there's

501
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: a great paper by Roschetti that came out a couple

502
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 3: of years ago that found that economic mobility is really

503
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: important in America, right, moving yourself up the economic ladder.

504
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 3: The number one predictor of that is being an economically

505
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: diverse space. And guess what, religion is one of the

506
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 3: last economically diverse spaces we have in American society. So

507
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 3: how do you move up the ladder. You talk to

508
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 3: someone at church who's a manager at a company says, hey,

509
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 3: we'd love to have you come work for us. You

510
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 3: move your way up that way. So I tell people,

511
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 3: like the thing about religion, you think it's all vertical,

512
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 3: it's all spiritual, it's all about God and salvation and stuff. Really,

513
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, a lot of it's

514
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 3: very horizontal, it's very social, right, it actually might help

515
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 3: you like in this world too, not just the world

516
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 3: after this world.

517
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: That I never thought of it like that. I always

518
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: tell the Republicans when they talked about when the conversation

519
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: on defunding the police was happening, I would say to

520
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: Republican politician, like, there is a safety net thing component

521
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: to it, very obviously. But also if you are a Latino,

522
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: lower income who can only get an associate's degree, one

523
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: of your only chances to be part of the middle class,

524
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: your only economic latters is joining the police or the fire.

525
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: It is a public union, and you need to talk

526
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: about things from an economic standpoint. I never thought of

527
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: religion in the same capacity, but it makes a lot

528
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: of sense. And I'll say this as someone who goes

529
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: to mass almost you know, almost every single Sunday. There

530
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: are times I sleep in, but most of the time

531
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 1: i'm there, I find that the only ones going still

532
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: are Republicans. I mean, I can, you can almost and

533
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: I live in I mean, like I just between Louisiana

534
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: and New York, and I mean Louisiana. Obviously, if ever

535
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: read state, even in New York City when I go,

536
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 1: you could nine times out of ten if we were

537
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: to campaign outside of a church, they're almost all Republicans,

538
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: and the ones that are Democrats left are like Joe

539
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: Biden's age is. And maybe this is just my unique experience,

540
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: but is church becoming considerably the Republican Party at prayer?

541
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 2: Absolutely like that.

542
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 3: We call it the God Gap, and it's getting bigger

543
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 3: and bigger every year, like the idea that Republicans are

544
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 3: the party of religious people and the Democrats are the

545
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: party of non religious people. Forty five percent of Harris

546
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 3: voters in twenty twenty four where atheist, agnostic, or claimed

547
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 3: no religion in particular, it was twelve percent of Trump's voters.

548
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: So you know what's happening is the parties are sort

549
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: of sorting into. The Republican Party is the party of Christianity,

550
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 3: particularly white Christianity by the way, so white Evangelical is

551
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 3: white Catholics. But the Democratic Party has like become the

552
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: party of non white Christians. So black Protestants suspend Catholics, Muslims, Jews,

553
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 3: but also the party of the non religious. I think

554
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 3: that's actually a huge problem the Democrats are facing now,

555
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 3: like on a lot of these issues of like morality

556
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: and culture and society is like, how do you please

557
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 3: an atheist and a black Protestant on issues about pronoun

558
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 3: usage in public schools or right? Like those those two

559
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 3: groups are not going to agree on anything in the

560
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 3: social space. And yet I think I was thinking the

561
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 3: Republican coalitions a lot easier to campaign to to message

562
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 3: with because it's like Christianity is good, family values are good,

563
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: Traditionalism is good. You know, like you can basically hit

564
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: these notes that eighty five ninety percent of Republicans will

565
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 3: agree with you.

566
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, the Democrats don't. They don't. They're the party of

567
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: everyone else when it comes to religion.

568
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you put up some interesting data that I

569
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: had now read before that a majority of churchgoers do

570
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: not actually want to hear their minister or priest talk

571
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: about religion.

572
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: They don't pop politics from the politics a politics right here? Yeah, people,

573
00:28:58,880 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: they wanted to save space.

574
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: I think people forget that, Like, and I just talked

575
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 3: to a progressive pastor yesterday, like what should we do

576
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 3: in response to this this god gap you talk about?

577
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 3: And I don't think the solution to them becoming more

578
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 3: right wing is for you to become more left wing.

579
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 3: I actually think there's a huge lane in America for hey,

580
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 3: we're not political here, and you can be vaguely liberal

581
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 3: talk about you know, everyone's welcome here, things like that,

582
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 3: But like, if you're wearing a rainbows there's actually I

583
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: saw a female Methodist pass thro who had a planned

584
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 3: Parenthood logo on her soul when she was preaching, and

585
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: I'm like, if you don't like when you see pastors

586
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: wearing maga hats, but you're okay with that, then that's

587
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 3: the problem. Like, the solution to the maga hat issue

588
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 3: is not you wearing a rainbow stole. It's for you

589
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 3: to preach the gospel in an apolitical, non political way

590
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 3: to get people a respite from all the nonsense that's

591
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: going on in the discourse and just say, my job

592
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: is to preach Jesus in the Kingdom, and come on,

593
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 3: if that's what you want to hear, that's what you're

594
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 3: going to hear from us, and listen. I go to

595
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 3: a Methodist church now, first, not a Methodist here in town.

596
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: My church closed down as an American Batist for a

597
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 3: long time. And I've been there for over a year now,

598
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 3: and there's not a single time I would go wow,

599
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 3: that's really political. Not once, and I love it, you

600
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 3: know what I mean. I just sit there and I

601
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 3: get to hear the message. I get to be told

602
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: to do better and God loves you and serve your

603
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: neighbor and love your family.

604
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: Like how can you be mad about that?

605
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 3: That's what I think to myself a lot, is like

606
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: how can people be mad at the message you're hearing

607
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: right now?

608
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: Right? You know, I grew up and I've lived my

609
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: whole life as a Catholic, So I think it's a

610
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: little different smoth. I've never had a priest talk about

611
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: abortion from a POLP. I mean maybe one literally close

612
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: to never and any other really big political issue. Maybe

613
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: maybe like it's just like assisted suicide. I think was

614
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: brought up one time. But of the tens of thousands

615
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: of times I have been to a church, I could

616
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: count on one hand how many times it's been explicitly political.

617
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: Maybe it's something that's different in like an evangelical setting

618
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: where I've known, you know, political commentators get to speak

619
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: at the pole, So it's a very different I think

620
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: unique experience. I have to ask this because it's part

621
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: of my church and because you read this data. So

622
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: what is the data on young converts to Catholicism. I

623
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: know in my own life, I know like about a

624
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: dozen young people most only eleven of the twelve have

625
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: been men. It's mostly young men who have said I'm

626
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: going to convert to catholsm What is there? Is that

627
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: just anecdotal or is it there a real thing? Because

628
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: I think that like a lot of young men are

629
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: looking specifically for structure, and there's nothing more structured and

630
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: less democratic in the world in the Catholic Church.

631
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 3: So so the data macro level stuff doesn't show any

632
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 3: anything worth writing home about in terms of, you know,

633
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 3: like a huge upstick in men now. So what we

634
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: do know is the gender gap used to be a

635
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: women more religious and men. We've known that forever, Like

636
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: that's just one of those we don't know things in

637
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 3: social science.

638
00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: But this is as close as we get.

639
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 3: And what's happened with gen z as the gap has

640
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: closed between men and women on religiosity measures. It's not reverse.

641
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: I think people overestimate this. Oh, men are more religious

642
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 3: than women now, young men and that's not true. They're

643
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 3: probably as religious as each other. And it does seem

644
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 3: it's like it's being driven by politics. We don't know

645
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: that for sure, but definitely there's some suggestive threads that's happening,

646
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: you know. For instance, I have a piece coming out

647
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 3: I think next yeah, next week, where I look at

648
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 3: how young men and young women think about issues like transgender, LGBTQ, abortion,

649
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 3: and the gender divide on those questions among kids born

650
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 3: in the two thousands is actually larger than any other

651
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 3: decade of birth between men and women. So young men

652
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 3: are actually significantly more conservative than young women on these

653
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 3: social issues. And I do think that has to be

654
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 3: tied to religion in some way, right, because it's like

655
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 3: what teaches you about LGBTQ and how we think about

656
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 3: those things, Well, it's the church. And I also think

657
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: that young women are they're reacting to you know, me

658
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: too in the church. Let's be honest, the Catholic Church

659
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: and Evangelical churches are very patriarchal, right, women don't have

660
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 3: access to leadership, and I think a lot of would

661
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 3: look around and go, why am I part of an

662
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 3: organization that doesn't give me access to leadership. You know,

663
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: I want to lead in fortune five hundred companies and

664
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 3: social organizations, But why would I be part of a

665
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 3: church that doesn't think I'm valued, I'm not equal to men,

666
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 3: and so they're leaving. So the increasing liberalization of young women,

667
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: I think is something that is talked about but not

668
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 3: enough in American society.

669
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: And there's only so many women who want to become

670
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: a trad wife influencers on Instagram. So I mean, there's

671
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: a market for that, but it's there's definitely a ceiling.

672
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: Last question before I get to your book, what is

673
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: the fastest growing segments of the real of the Christian

674
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: faith in America?

675
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: Oh? Man, what is the uh.

676
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: So A hard question. Yeah.

677
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 3: The problem is it's like these really small groups will

678
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 3: come to me and be like, oh, we're growing. Look

679
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 3: at our numbers and they're like one hundred and twenty

680
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: five thousand last year, they're one hundred and.

681
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 2: Thirty thousand this year.

682
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, thats you know what I mean.

683
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 3: That's like, so I will say this, Pentecostal groups are growing,

684
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 3: like the Assemblies of God for instance. So like if

685
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: you look at almost every major large denomination in America,

686
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 3: Southern Baptists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Lutherans. Their membership is down significantly.

687
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 3: You know, over the last thirty years, talking twenty five

688
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: thirty percent. The Assemblies of God has grown almost without

689
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 3: fail in the last fifty years. There are three point

690
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 3: three million people now. They're actually the most racially diverse

691
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 3: large denomination in America. So I think to me, like

692
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 3: charismatic worship, you know, people raising their hands and clapping

693
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 3: and sometimes you know, speaking in tongues, those kind of things.

694
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 3: That kind of religion actually, not just the United States,

695
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 3: but in the world is really the resurgent kind of

696
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 3: religion happening all over. People are drawn to that. It's

697
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 3: it's it's almost like a spectacle in some ways. And

698
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 3: if by the way, it's very good on YouTube, you know,

699
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 3: to watch people like it's fun to watch people like

700
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 3: have a really like seem like they're having a religious

701
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 3: And by the way, the Kirk funeral, I think you

702
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 3: saw a lot of that at Charlie Kirk's funeral, Like

703
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 3: Chris Tomlins, the CCM rock star.

704
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: I mentioned that my monologue against that they were like that.

705
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: One writer said he is like that I feel more

706
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: at home and Greece than I do at an event

707
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: like this, i'mas Williams. Yeah, it was very evangelical, absolutely,

708
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: and there is even certain portions of Catholics to pick

709
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: up on evangelical performance a little bit. I don't want

710
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: to say like they don't obviously do the same things,

711
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: but there is definitely some of the aesthetics that seem

712
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: very similar.

713
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 3: And I think I was thinking of what what Shady

714
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 3: Van's doing during all this stuff, you know, being Catholic

715
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 3: but also not wanting to alienate the evangelical base. But

716
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 3: the worship was incredibly evangelical in its orientation, and that's

717
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 3: Catholics don't raise their hands except during the Lord's Prayer,

718
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 3: like you know, I mean like that that's just not

719
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: a thing that happens in Catholic worship. So there's like

720
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 3: there's in some ways they're aligned on certain like social issues,

721
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 3: theological issues, but in terms of style that is the movement.

722
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 3: Like there are groups like there are churches that literally

723
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 3: go they have their worship band, like go on tour

724
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 3: and go to stadiums and sell out five ten thousand

725
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 3: person stadiums where people just do an hour and a

726
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 3: half of praise and worship like it's a movement.

727
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: Right now, I.

728
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: Will say something that I might offend people, but I

729
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: don't care because it's very funny. I dated someone briefly

730
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 1: who was an evangelical and brought me to an evangelical

731
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: church and they had a rock band and I was like, Oh,

732
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: this is weird. And then the pastor was just saying, like,

733
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: clap if you like just wanted more participation than I

734
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: am used to as a Catholic, and it was you know,

735
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: clap you if you want Jesus and snap your fingers whatever.

736
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: And I looked over and go, this is not like

737
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: a tinker Bell situation where if you just clap hard

738
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: enough they come back to life. Like this, I don't

739
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: understand what we're doing right now. So your book, The

740
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: Vanishing Church. I haven't read a book specifically about sociology

741
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: and religion since A Nation of hero which was a

742
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: great book. What's this book about? What can we expect?

743
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 2: Yeah?

744
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: So I really I take all the data I've got

745
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 3: from the last fifty years and make this claim that

746
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 3: we talk a lot about political polarization in America, we

747
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 3: do not talk about religious polarization in America, and how

748
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: religious polarization is probably actually driving the political wedge between

749
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 3: us even stronger. And so if you look at evangelicals,

750
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 3: obviously they become a lot more conservative over the last

751
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 3: fifty years. Actually, in nineteen seventy two, a majority of

752
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 3: white evangelicals were Democrats.

753
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: Not surprising Jimmy Carter, Yeah, Jimmy.

754
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 3: Carter, right, And even like the old Southern the Southern Democrats, right,

755
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 3: you know about race and all those things. But today

756
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 3: they're more polarized than ever, They're more they're more monoculture

757
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 3: than ever. Politically, almost eighty percent of them identify as Republicans,

758
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 3: eighty two percent voter for Trump. But what people don't

759
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 3: realize is even like mainline protests and Christianity, and people

760
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 3: don't know that's Episcopalian Methodists, sort of the middle stream

761
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 3: of pros and Christianity that is actually becoming. They were

762
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 3: sort of moderate politically, like divided politically, but guess what,

763
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 3: they're almost gone in America today. The main Line was

764
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 3: over half of America in nineteen seventy two, and now

765
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 3: they're down to about ten percent of America quickly going

766
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: to go to five percent because.

767
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: They're all old, they're all going to die soon.

768
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 3: So the point I make in the book is, like

769
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 3: Margaret Thatcher said it best, you stand in the middle

770
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 3: of the road. You get hit by cars coming and going.

771
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 3: And the main line was always too liberal for evangelicals

772
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 3: but too conservative for atheists, and so they kind of

773
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 3: rode that middle line. They're going to write it right

774
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 3: to irrelevancy in extinction. But the Catholic Church, you know,

775
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 3: you go you're Catholic, you go to if you look

776
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 3: at data on priests and ask them about their politics

777
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 3: and their theology. Among priests who have been ordained in

778
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 3: the last ten years, almost all of them are conservative now,

779
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 3: and the white Catholic voter is moving incredibly to the right.

780
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 3: Over sixty percent of the white Catholics vote for Trump

781
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 3: is twenty twenty four.

782
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: That's pretty wild. I mean, I think that a majority

783
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: voted for Obama in two thousand and eight. I cord

784
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: that's the data. So it's about win by twenty points

785
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 1: in the largest single church in America. Is pretty wild.

786
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: What what was I going to ask you about? The

787
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: perfect perfect thing about the priests. I have a young

788
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 1: priest at my church who's younger than I am. First

789
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: time I've ever had a priest is younger than I am.

790
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: And he said to me, I speak seven languages. Oh,

791
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: that's like amazing, which like which ones? He's like, well,

792
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: English and then six other dead languages. And I was like, okay,

793
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,479
Speaker 1: that is that is.

794
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: Literally count I don't know if we counted that way.

795
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: I know, but it's it's it speaks to the level

796
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: I never in my life a priest I grew up

797
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: with with smoke cigarettes while like giving you confession, so

798
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 1: like it was a definite version of like orthodoxy that

799
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: younger priests I know are younger priests are very very orthodox,

800
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: and I think that the the Pope Francis form of

801
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: Catholicism has a very short window within the papacy, within

802
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: the entire practicing faith. They just don't. Even though there's

803
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 1: less priests now, the ones who still commit that life

804
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: of the priesthood are very very not just conservative, but

805
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: very uh very beholden to the belief of like the

806
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 1: Catechism and the belief of the of the founders of

807
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 1: the Church or the like. You know. I would strongly

808
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: suggest that there's probably a decent percentage. I think Vatican

809
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 1: too was a mistake.

810
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: Oh well, Cardinal Dolan called them Charlie Kirk a saint like.

811
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 1: Mar he called he compared him to Saint Paul. Yeah,

812
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: Cardoninel Dolan is not a I mean Cardinal Dolan, Like

813
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: where's like you know, it's like talk about football. I

814
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: mean like, Cardinal Dolan is not a radical right wing

815
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: pastor in the respects. I can't remember his name, but

816
00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: oh Simon and Garfuncle, the radical priest sing blank in

817
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: the name uh And okay, someone's gonna comment and I

818
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: mean email, like how would you forget? It was from

819
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: this song whatever? But Julio, me and Julio down at

820
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: the cool yard of the school yard, there was there

821
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 1: was there was a radical precinc mentions and I forget,

822
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: but it was the role that Cardinal Dolan currently has

823
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: cardinal and is not of that elk. And to compare

824
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: Charlie Kurchus Saint Paul is a very very substantial claim

825
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: from uh, from especially from him of all people. And

826
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: I just think that that is a sign of the

827
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: change within this church is going to be immensely different

828
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: than what it is now. So well, where can people

829
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 1: go to get your work?

830
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 3: You hit me on that substack graphs about religion. That's

831
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 3: that's what people like. I tried to come with a

832
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 3: cool name for it. I was like, nah, dude, it's

833
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 3: just grasps about religion. I post Mondays and Thursdays. It's

834
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 3: just a bunch of grass Fifteen hundred words and five

835
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 3: six graphs, just trying to explain something happening in the

836
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 3: world of religion, mostly religion, but sometimes religion and politics.

837
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: You can sign up.

838
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 3: There's a free tier and there's a paid tier. Free

839
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 3: gets you most of everything. Page gets you a little

840
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 3: bit more. On top of that, I've got a new

841
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 3: book coming out. We just talked about it. You can

842
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 3: get on Amazon pre order now, comes out in January.

843
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 3: Wrote a book called The Nuns in Onees, Where They

844
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 3: Came From, Who they Are, Where They're Going, which came

845
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 3: out second edition came out two years ago. And I

846
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 3: had a book with Oxford University Press called The American

847
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 3: Religious Landscape that came out like six months ago. If

848
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 3: you want, like, if you want to understand the American

849
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 3: Religious Landscape, like with just a bunch of charts and graphs,

850
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 3: like in a textbook style and an engaging textbook style,

851
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 3: that's the book you should pick up.

852
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: It's called the American Religious Landscape, so it's.

853
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: Like a religious version of Generations by Jeanette. I've got

854
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: her last twenty yeah, I think Frenny. Yeah, but that

855
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: was literally like a reading textbook for school. But I

856
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. But I'm a nerd, so I get it.

857
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: I love your graphs. I look at your Twitter constantly.

858
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be able to do this podcast.

859
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on.

860
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 4: Thanks very, I appreciate it you're listening to It's a

861
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 4: Numbers Game with Ryan Grodowsky. We'll be right back after

862
00:42:54,640 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 4: this message. Now it's time for the ask Me Anything

863
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 4: segment of the podcast. If you want a part of

864
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 4: the ask Me Anything segment, and I love getting your emails.

865
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: I read them all. Email me Ryan at Numbers Gamepodcast

866
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 1: dot com. That's Ryan at Numbers Plural Numbers Gamepodcast dot com.

867
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: I will read your email. I will get to it

868
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: eventually on the show. This comes from my actually no name, Jake.

869
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 1: He asked, have you always been a conservative? The answer

870
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: is no, because I was not always political. When I

871
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: was young. I was the only political opinion I had

872
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: as a kid. I had two, which was that I

873
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: was against the Iraq War, which I snuck out of.

874
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: I went to one of the protests. I went to

875
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: Manhattan without telling my parents that I was going there

876
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 1: to protest the Iraq War when I was in high school,

877
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: and I was against amnesty for legal immigrants because growing

878
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: up in New York City, I saw neighborhoods vastly demographically

879
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: change and the level of social trust within those neighborhoods

880
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: and the norms and the customs of these neighborhoods go

881
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: with it, and I was like, this is not, you know,

882
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: healthy for society. These neighborhoods are not are definitely less

883
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: participatory in civic engagement in civic society, and I think

884
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: that there's a big problem with how many people are

885
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: coming to our country in very fast numbers. So I changed.

886
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: I had of those opinions, but other than that, I

887
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: didn't have like, you know, some people are like, I'm

888
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: Republican so I have believe in everything in the platform,

889
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: or I'm a Democrats are biding the entire liberal series

890
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: of liberal platitudes, and I was very I just didn't

891
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: have a lot of other opinions aside from immigration in

892
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: the Iraq War, which I thought made me a Democrat.

893
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: So the first person I voted for was Anthony Wiener.

894
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: He was also running on opposed, so I have a

895
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: little carve out from that, but I voted for him.

896
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: And then when I was like nineteen, I needed a job.

897
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: I was doing like a lot of like you know

898
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: when you're like young and you just need to make money,

899
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: so you do like Kurt crazy things. I was was

900
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: shadowing a real estate agent for a little while, was

901
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: doing a bunch of things to try to find something

902
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: I was interested in, and I thought of politics, and

903
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: I went to go work for move on dot org.

904
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: They used to have. It used to be this big

905
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: anti Bush organization. If you don't know what it is. Uh,

906
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: they were very against the war. So it's like, oh, perfect,

907
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: I'm against the war. There against the war. And they

908
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 1: used to people that they hired to basically stand out

909
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: in corners of Manhattan and ask people for money to

910
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 1: do like anti war activism. And I was like, all right, whatever.

911
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: I was probably eighteen, I probably wasn't even nineteen yet,

912
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: and I was like, all right, that sounds good to me.

913
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,919
Speaker 1: And beforehand we had to have like all the people there,

914
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: they got to go to the move on dot org

915
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: office and walk in and sit on beambag chairs and

916
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: have coffee and discuss, you know, why they're there, what

917
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: motivates them to be political, you know, some events of

918
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: the day. And I get there and everything smells like

919
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: pod and like feet, and it was like disgusting. And

920
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: you sit down and I'm you know, in a semi

921
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: circle or circle with these other people who want to

922
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: be like left wing activists, and they were like, I

923
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: believe the Nation stage should but be abolish. Like it

924
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: was like the craziest shit I've ever heard before in

925
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: my life. And I was like uh, And of course

926
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 1: I started arguing with people because I can't help myself,

927
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: and I was like, I do not belong here, Like

928
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: these people are nuts. I can only imagine when those

929
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: people say now at this point, because this was you know,

930
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. But and then I went I was like, okay,

931
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: this is not for me. In like two thousand and eight,

932
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to vote for who's ever

933
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: against the war in Iraq and against amnesty for legal immigrants.

934
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: And that was Ron Paul. So I went to a

935
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: rom Paul meetup group and a round Paul I joined

936
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: a Ron Paul forum online, and I actually still have

937
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: friends from the rom Paul Forum from two thousand and

938
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 1: eight who I still speak to occasionally. And then I

939
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: read started reading. We talked about constitutional limited government, things

940
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: I never thought of before, and Austrian economics and the

941
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: gold standard, and it was just fascinating to definitely pique

942
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: my curiosity. And then on a very boring family vacation,

943
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: I decided to buy some audiobooks and I bought and

944
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: Culture's book and Pat Buchanan's book, and there was just

945
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: really no going back ever after that. So that was

946
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: my little And there was also like a lot of

947
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: religious movement in my life at that time as well,

948
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 1: so there was a lot going on. But no, I

949
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: definitely was I was not always conservative, but I was

950
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: not always deeply political. And the one consistency in my

951
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: life is I was going to say war in Iraq,

952
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: I was against ambassy for legal immigrants. And I still

953
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: don't have opinions on a lot of things that I

954
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: don't jump into it. I don't need to get into

955
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: the fray about a million things. I know there's a

956
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: lot I don't know about it, and I don't really

957
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: care about them, so I only talk about things I'm

958
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: interested in. Anyway, thank you for listening to this episode.

959
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed it. If you like this podcast,

960
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: please like and subscribe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

961
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Give me a five star

962
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: review if you really liked this episode, and I will

963
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: see you guys on Monday,