1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. A few months back, 2 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: Carlton Reserve gave up a big secret. It's in the 3 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 1: reserve that the body of Brian Laundry was found. We 4 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,959 Speaker 1: didn't really know what state his remains were in. There 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: was a lot of speculation. But now because of forensic 6 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: science and what I'm about to tell you today, we've 7 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: got more answers than we could have ever vote for. 8 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs again. 9 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: With me today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive 10 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories. When Nancy Grace, Jackie, I'll tell 11 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: you what I didn't think we'd ever see this day. 12 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: But boy do we ask some info to impart to 13 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: all our listeners. This time we do. Joe, as you 14 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: and I were discussing the details that came out in 15 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: this report, you said something to me that that piqued 16 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: interest right off the top of the bad and that 17 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: is the fact that the autopsy report for Brian Laundry 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: is not one report, but five. Please explain that to me. Yeah, yeah, 19 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: and that's something I gotta tell you. When when I 20 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: you know, of course, I had people from all over 21 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: that were shooting me the link when it first came out, 22 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: and I was amazed because, yeah, we don't just simply 23 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: have an autopsy report. Not that that's not a great thing, 24 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: but yeah, we've got five of these reports, Jackie, and 25 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: that's that's kind of amazing. I'm just gonna kind of 26 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: give you the basic rundown real quick of what we have. 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: We have the Emmy investigator's report, which is actually the 28 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: medical legal death investigator that physically went out to the 29 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: scene and observed what was out there. Remember, they're the 30 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: eyes and the ears of the forensic pathologists. They go 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: out and they bring in data for the pathologists so 32 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: that they can make determinations. Most of the time, forensic 33 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: pathologists don't go into the field. Then you have the 34 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: forensic pathology. But you said the investigator's report. What kind 35 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: of things are on that report? You're looking at detailed 36 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: drawings of where everything is laid out, photographs. What exactly 37 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: is the pathologists going to be looking at when he 38 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: reads that report. Well, first off, you know, you have 39 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: to understand that the forensic pathologist doesn't physically go to 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: the scene. You see that on television. It just it 41 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: happens only in rare occasion, So most of the time 42 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: you're going to have a medical examiner investigator, which is 43 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: what I did for a living all those years. That 44 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: is going to be the eyes and the ears of 45 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists out in the field. So they physically 46 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: go out there and observe the environment and the environment 47 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: in which the body is found. And that's important here 48 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: because that lends context to the story that is being 49 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: told by the environment. So in Brian Laundry's case, you know, 50 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: you've got skeletal remains which are essentially deposited out in 51 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: the swampy area, and it's kind of convoluted and confused. 52 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: If I'll put it to you this way, if you 53 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: just had a bunch of cops and went out and 54 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: randomly picked up evidence and brought it back to the 55 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: morgue and handed it to the doctor and said, here, 56 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: figure this out. Can you imagine what a nightmare that 57 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: would be. So the medical examiner investigator is kind of 58 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: an extension of the forensic pathologists, and what they're taking 59 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: a look at is first off, the distribution of the bones, 60 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: and you want to see how far out they extend 61 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: in this environment, where are they deposited. How are they deposited? 62 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: Are some partially buried? Are they just laying out on 63 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: the bare surface of the earth and this kind of 64 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: loamy dirt that's down there with all the decomposing vegetable 65 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: matter that's surrounding it. Is the ground soft? Is it hard? 66 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: Does it look like there may have been a grave 67 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: that was adjacent to this area? You know, all kinds 68 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: of issues like that. And one of the things that 69 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: really was telling for me is that this is how 70 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: detailed this report is. And I encourage all of our 71 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: listeners and bodybacks to read this report if you're really 72 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: interested in forensics. This investigator did such a fantastic job. 73 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: They even talked about the height of what the water 74 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: level had been at and you could see that. You 75 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: know how many times if you have a flooded area, 76 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: you'll see where the waterline got up to. If you 77 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: live near a river or maybe near the ocean, you 78 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,559 Speaker 1: can see that kind of benchmark, that staining that takes place. 79 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: They made note of that, and that's significant in this 80 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: case because remember what they were telling us weeks ago 81 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: when they finally recovered Brian Launder's remains. They said that 82 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: remains had been submerged, and these depths are going to 83 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: vary out there. So the EMMY investigator puts all of 84 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: that in context and then they make note of not 85 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: only the bones and the distribution of the bone in 86 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: the area that they cover, but any other items. And 87 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: we've boy did they find items. You know, we've we've 88 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: heard about the dry bag, you know that was that 89 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: was out there. They found that, they found the notebook, 90 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: they found a box that the notebook was in. They 91 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: haven't found a weapon out there. They found, believe it 92 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: or not, they found a projectile and you know that 93 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: projectile was actually buried beneath six inches of this loamy 94 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: soil that I mentioned. You know how they found that, Well, 95 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't laying on top of the ground. That means 96 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: that they went out there with metal detectors and swept 97 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: the area. So there's a lot that goes into this, 98 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: into this environment. And you know, one of the things 99 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: that I was always interested in as an EMMY investigator, 100 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: I think it applies here is how much cover and 101 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: concealment was there out here, you know, and when you 102 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: get into a swampy area. They used terms like canopy. 103 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: We heard we hear that term lots of times relative 104 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: to jungle. What kind of canopy do you have out there? 105 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: How thick are the leaves above you? It is this 106 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: an area that could be appreciated if you were flying 107 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: over it. And it's pretty pretty thick vegetation out there. 108 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: And of course it was all around the rim of 109 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: this area where water had settled in Jackie. Okay, that's 110 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: one report. What's next, you know, after the body comes in, 111 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,239 Speaker 1: that's brought in by the transport service, after the EMMY 112 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: investigator has done their part at the scene, it's at 113 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: this point in time that the forensic pathologist will begin 114 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: to do what would normally be considering an autopsy. And yeah, 115 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: this is an autopsy, even though you don't have a 116 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: fully intact body. But the pathologist actually goes in with 117 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: all of these bones and there were roughly, I think 118 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: they recovered just under one hundred bones, I think, and 119 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: there's just over two hundred bones in the human body, 120 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: So you begin to talk about smaller bones you know 121 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: that we have in our body. Some of those things 122 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: you you're just not going to recover. But they did 123 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: find one hundred and they were significant to have found 124 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: that number. Of bones, Joe, would that be considered a 125 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: successful recovery. A successful recovery is relative in forensic science. 126 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: You know, our fallback position is you essentially take what 127 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: you can get, and if this is what you're presented with, 128 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: then that's what you're going to move forward with. And 129 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: we understand as forensic scientists that you know, like the 130 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: small bones that you find in the hand for instance, 131 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: the tips of the fingers, those sorts of things in 132 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: the feet as well, some of those things are just 133 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: going to be gone. They'll either be gone as a 134 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: result of being washed away by water or you know, 135 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: in cases like this where small animals are going to 136 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: come along and take bones away and they'll take them 137 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: back to their little burrows. Because you know, you have 138 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: to understand these bones that these animals seek out. They're 139 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: protein rich in animals that I think most people think. 140 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: You know, they look at, say, for instance, of squirrel, 141 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: they might look at a raccoon or something and think, oh, well, 142 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: it's so beautiful. You know, they wouldn't do anything to 143 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: a human body. No, they're seeking out protein and that's 144 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: what they kind of get an infusion of with these bones, 145 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: and they can sense that and they'll take these tiny 146 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: bones something that's manageable and take it back to their 147 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: burrow and they're going to hang on to it. And 148 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: we found tiny bones like that before on recovery. So 149 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: the fact that they've got a hundred is really significant. 150 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: And even better than that is the fact that they 151 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: recovered I think twenty six pieces of skull. And of course, 152 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: at you know, what we're looking for here is cause 153 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: and manner of death in this particular case, and that 154 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 1: goes to a bigger issue when you have to account 155 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: for everything that you have. And what I teach people 156 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: relative to forensics is this negative findings and always keep 157 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: this in mind. In forensics science, well just about any 158 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: kind of science, negative findings are just as important as 159 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: positive funding. So if you're absence something, or you know, 160 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: maybe you're doing a test and it doesn't come out 161 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: in a positive manner in which you might want it to, 162 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: that means that it takes you down another path. Okay, 163 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: So in this case you mentioned, is it's a success. Yeah, 164 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: it's a success because we've got a hundred as opposed 165 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: to say fifty, So that is significant. We've got a 166 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: hundred bonds to work with. I wish we had more, 167 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: but that's what we have and we're going to move 168 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: on from there. So you have to When the friends 169 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: and pathologists takes this, they have this kind of particulate 170 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: skeleton that they lay out on this big stainless steel table, 171 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: and they'll go through and they will inventory every single 172 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: thing they have. They'll take photographs of it, they'll take 173 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: measurements of it, and just to make sure that they 174 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: can account for everything that was recovered in the field, 175 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: and also to say, you know what, guy, as I 176 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: tell you what, we didn't recover this in this why 177 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: don't we make another run out there now. The reason 178 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: that's important is because now you've got a medical doctor 179 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: looking who who is an anatomical not just a forensic pathologist, 180 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: but most of these guys are what are referred to 181 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: as anatomical pathologist. That means that they truly study the body. 182 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: They will say, I'll tell you what, let's go back 183 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: out one more time and see if we can find this, this, 184 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: and this. I suggest you look in these particular areas 185 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: relative to where you found these particular bones, and then 186 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: you go back out and you do another pass at 187 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: that area. So that gives you an idea of kind 188 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: of where you stand, and you can do a general 189 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: overall assessment because the more sample you have, the higher 190 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 1: the probability is that you're first off going to determined 191 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: manner and cause at death, and secondly you're going to 192 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: be able to get a positive identification. And that's that's 193 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: kind of the heart and soul of what the medical 194 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: examiner is there for. We're there for three principal reasons, 195 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: the manner of death, the cause of death, and who 196 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: is this person? And that's what we do in that environment. 197 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: So you have the body such as it is in 198 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: total in that from that perspective, now you've got this 199 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: particulate skull. The fact that we have the skull that 200 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: is fragmented will say that that means it's like a 201 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 1: big puzzle, is significant because that gives us an indication 202 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: that something probably traumatic has happened to the skull, because 203 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: skulls do not just spontaneously fall apart, even in the 204 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: face of the decomposition. Think about how many documentaries you 205 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: may have watched on burials, ancient burials. Even when they 206 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: recovered King Richard the Third's body out of the car 207 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: park over in England, many years ago. He'd been buried 208 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: for hundreds and hundreds of years. Guess what, his skull 209 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: is still intact. You can tell where a dagger had 210 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: gone into the back of the skull. Skulls are very resilient, 211 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: so the fact that the skull that they have is 212 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: essentially particulate is significant when we begin to think about 213 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: the manner of death and the causality as to what 214 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: brought about their death. So that is very important. And 215 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: what will you know? We have this forensic pathology report 216 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: that essentially is an autopsy. It's going to be their 217 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: examination of the bone. They're going to rule out any 218 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: kind of trauma that they might see. I can tell 219 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: you that based upon what I read in the forensic 220 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: pathology report, there was little or no soft tissue left. However, 221 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: they did state that along spinal proceeds that is the 222 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: vertebral bodies in the back, they did see some evidence 223 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: of what's referred to as adapacer. And this is a 224 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: unique thing that happens, particularly in bodies that have been 225 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: in water. Old timers used to refer to it as 226 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: death wise acts. And the best way I can really 227 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: describe it is the fat during the process of decomposition 228 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: actually turns into it gives the appearance of almost some 229 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: people describe it as cottage cheese or even cauliflower. It 230 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: becomes very hard, and there were certain focal areas of 231 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 1: that left behind. But there, Jackie, there was no other, 232 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: no other soft tissue left on the body. So that 233 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: gives you an indication that the body had in fact 234 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: been out there for a protracted period of time. The 235 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: elements played a part in this. I think that probably 236 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: animal activity played a significant part in this. And you know, 237 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: so the forensic pathologist is kind of left wanting at 238 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: this point because you know, look, I mean, it's one 239 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: thing to make a fatal diagnosis if you will on 240 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: a body that is intact with soft tissue. It's completely 241 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: different if all you have or skeletal remains. It's it's very, 242 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: very difficult. So it's at that point point when I'm 243 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: flipping through the report, I almost became giddy, if you 244 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: can imagine that looking at a report like this, because 245 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: the most robust portion of this totality of paperwork that 246 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: came out was actually generated by the forensic anthropologist. Just 247 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: going to ask you about that, Joe, you and I 248 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: had discussed the five different types of reports as I 249 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, So there was the forensic pathology report and 250 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: the forensic anthropology report. What's the difference. Oh yeah, it 251 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: is significant, you know, forensic anthropologist, you know, and it's 252 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: gone down I guess in Lore now relative to the 253 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: body farm up in Tennessee at ut. You know, with 254 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: doctor Bass and what they do. The studies that they 255 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: do up they're relative to human remains, and they refer 256 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: to them as many times as the desiccation studies. You 257 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: hear that, but essentially they're trying to determine, you know, 258 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: the rate of decomposition. Well, those are forensic anthropologists that 259 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: do that. And what happens in this rendered down state 260 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: is many times all you have left or skeletal remains. 261 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: And we're very unique, you know. Even in our skeletal composition, 262 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: it is unique to us. It bears the marks of 263 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: growth or lack of growth, or level of nutrition. Injuries 264 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: that we've had, say, for instance, we've had a broken bone, 265 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: even though you might perceive that it is healed, and 266 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: it is very well healed. If you've if you've had 267 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: a significant fracture in your life, guess what if it's 268 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: going to show up on an X ray, and it 269 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: will certainly show up in the hands of a forensic 270 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: anthropologist as they are examining a bone. Say, if somebody's 271 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: fractured a big bone like the femur, you'll see a 272 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: little fracture line in there where it's it's kind of 273 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: resolved and healed. And why that is important is that 274 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: that is a specific point of identification relative to these 275 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: remains that are otherwise completely compromised. You're absent any other 276 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: ability perhaps to get them identified. But if somebody's got 277 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: pins or screws in their hip or their knee, or 278 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: their shoulder or wherever, if they got old fracture lines. 279 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: I've had cases where I've had individuals that have been 280 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: staffed through the ribs and can you imagine this. You 281 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: can still see the groove where the knife might have 282 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: passed through, maybe thirty years earlier. But that's a specific 283 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: identifier that's unique to that person. But with this particular skeleton, 284 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: I go back to what I'd said earlier. We have 285 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: got this fragmented skull and who else, who else is 286 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: better than a forensic anthropologist to actually take the skull. 287 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: And what was done is that they essentially reassembled this 288 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: skull as best they could. And when that reassembly had 289 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: had a reassemblage had taken place, Boy was a lot 290 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: revealed here because essentially it verified what a lot of 291 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: people had speculated about, I think, and it's one thing 292 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: to speculate, but when you can get scientific confirmation, as 293 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: in this particular case, when you've got so many people 294 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: that are wondering about it, so many people that are 295 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: asking questions, this is big. It's it's one of the 296 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: biggest things to kind of rise up out of all 297 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: of this data, you know that has been recovered and examined, 298 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: and so with this skull, when they finally got that 299 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: particulate skull put back together, it was the biggest reveal 300 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: of all because it was at that point in time 301 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: that the forensic anthropologist and the forensic pathologists came together 302 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: and their conclusion is that whoever the skull belonged to, 303 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: it sustained a self inflicted gunshot one So, Joe. The 304 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: last two reports of our five are by their titles 305 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: pretty self explanatory. That is the DNA analysis report and 306 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: the forensic dentistry, which is how is how the identification 307 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: was made on Brian Laundry. Yeah, right, Yard Jackie, And 308 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would just kind of 309 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: gloss over this, but you have to understand this is 310 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: one of the biggest points of contention, at least from 311 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: my perspective having dealt with this case since I don't know, 312 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: probably the actually the first day of the investigation, reporting 313 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: on it and this sort of thing. This is significant 314 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: because you've got to know who the individual is. That's 315 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: that's one of the major questions here. And so the 316 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: DNA report that the analysts generated is kind of fascinating, 317 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: particularly you know, if you're interested in DNA and how 318 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: this works. What they did is, you know, not only 319 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: do they have do they have the bone that the 320 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist examined, but they also had another element. They 321 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,959 Speaker 1: had teeth, And so with the teeth and then the 322 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: long bones, what they were able to do is to 323 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: do an extraction, which means that they can go into 324 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 1: the pulp of the tooth. They use a very fine 325 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: drill and go in there and extract pulp and it's 326 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: kind of a robust area where you can harvest DNA 327 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: from and also in you want to use like a 328 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: larger bone if you can pelvis or femur. In this case, 329 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,959 Speaker 1: I think they used the femur and remove some DNA 330 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: sample from there as well. Now, this is something quite 331 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: interesting here. When we were in the middle of reporting 332 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: and I had actually talked to Nancy Grace about this, Jackie, 333 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: there was one day in particular where I saw an 334 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: FBI investigator go walking in the door. You know all 335 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 1: those video clips of them going into Brian Launder's parents home. 336 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: One of the things I recognized and I think she 337 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: was holding them in her right hand. I looked at 338 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: that and I said, you know what those are DNA 339 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: sample boxes she's carrying in. And I think that was 340 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: kind of confirmed because what we did find out is 341 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,959 Speaker 1: that they went in and did buckle mucosal swaps of 342 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: both Brian Launder's mom and dad. And what that means 343 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: is they go in and scrape the cheek cells out 344 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,479 Speaker 1: and they can do a comparison relative to the parents' 345 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: DNA versus the unidentified skeletal remains that they had. And 346 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: kind of hand in hand with that, we have this 347 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: forensic dentistry examination that was conducted. Some people know them 348 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: as forensic odontologists. You hear them associated with bite marks 349 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. But you know what, forensic 350 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: dentists that forensic odentologists are used far more frequently relative 351 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: to identification than they are most of the time with 352 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 1: bite mark because you have so many unidentified bodies. People 353 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: aren't aware of that. In the public, you get a 354 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: lot of decomposed bodies, and our default position traditionally has 355 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: always been to go to dentistry because you have these 356 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: dentists that can go in and examine the teeth, and 357 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: teeth are fascinating. First off, teeth are not bone. People 358 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 1: think that, but these teeth that they have out at 359 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: the scene, they're found in both the mandible, which is 360 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: your lower jaw okay, the mandible, and then you have 361 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: them in the maxilla, which is upper portion of your mouth. 362 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: So they were able to actually extract teeth. The dentist 363 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: was and aid in the harvesting of DNA from those samples. Now, 364 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: in addition, in addition to the DNA, the dentist also 365 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: did a dental examination of the teeth that they had 366 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: And this is quite fascinating because you have to understand 367 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: that in order to do a dental identification, you can 368 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: do a perfect examination on a dead body, all right, 369 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: an unidentified dead body. But guess what you have at 370 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: the end of that if you have nothing to compare 371 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: it to, well, you have an dental examination on a 372 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: dead body. That's it. That's the road ends literally right there. 373 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: So what you have to do, and from an investigative standpoint, 374 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: if you suspect that it is somebody, you go to 375 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: a practitioner, a dentist that has treated the suspected individual 376 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: in the past, and you get there what's referred to 377 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: as anti mortem dental records. And they actually make note 378 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: of this in this report, and that's significant that they 379 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: went to Brin Laundry's Pride, a practicing dentist, and retrieved 380 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: his chart and they begin to talk about malaclusions and 381 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: how the teeth are rotated and how they're pitched and 382 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things, and they compare the chart 383 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: that they have with the teeth that they now have, 384 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: and they were able to get a positive ID based 385 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: on that. I don't know of any case that we've 386 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: covered in body bags thus far that has contained this 387 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: much information. I was kind of blown away relative to 388 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: the amount of data that we have to go over 389 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: in this case. It is a lot, Joe, and every 390 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: bit of it is fascinating. And I'm going to pinpoint 391 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: one right now. You talked about the projectile that was 392 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: discovered with the use of a metal detector. I was 393 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: reading in the report that that projectile was found about 394 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: fifty to sixty feet south of the area where the 395 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: skull fragments and the handgun we're found. When it comes 396 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: to an investigation like this that is so painstaking. You're 397 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: talking about a lot of man hours in finding that fragment. Yeah, 398 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: you are. And it all comes to listen when you 399 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: go into a scene like this, This is not a 400 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: scene that you just kind of willy nearly walk onto 401 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: and say, Okay, you gotta look over there. You got 402 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: to look over there, and I'll look over here, and 403 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 1: you know, maybe we'll find some of this night how 404 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: it's done. This kind of scene like this, your efforts 405 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: are one or lost based on the preparation that goes 406 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: into prior to even beginning to enter into a scene 407 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: like this. Now, kind of let me paint the picture, 408 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: because this is a hostile environment. And I don't mean 409 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: hostile in the sense that you know, you've got lines 410 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: and tigers and bears of might, even though people have 411 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: said there might be alligators, the fact that it's super 412 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: duper hot, You've got snakes out there. The landscape is 413 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: kind of always changing. It's wet, it's high humidity. You're miserable. 414 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: Trust me, I've been in environments like this. But what 415 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: you have to do to begin with is decide who's 416 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: going to handle what you know. Who's going to be 417 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: the photographer, who's going to be described that means the 418 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: person writing everything down. Who's going to be the person 419 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: that's going to be down on their hands and knees 420 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: moving layers of dirt away. Who's going to be the 421 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: person that's in charge of the little markers they're going 422 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: to put them in the ground. And so in order 423 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: to do this, you have to break up into teams, 424 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: and then the teams will come together and actually grid 425 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,959 Speaker 1: off the area. Can you imagine that? So that just 426 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: imagine a gigantic plat of the land where you've essentially 427 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: got these grids that are roughly two by two two 428 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: feet by two feet can be three feet by three feet, 429 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: and you work each one of those little grid squares. 430 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: And most of the time in the past I've seen 431 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: people string to string these things off, and they're very 432 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: very uniformed, and you only work one little section at 433 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: a time, and it is painstaking, but you don't want 434 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: to miss anything if you focus. It's like anything else 435 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: in life. If you look at something big, okay, and 436 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: you say, oh my god, I've got to do all 437 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: this work, it's overwhelming. If you look at that one 438 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: little section, it's easy to kind of kind of handle. 439 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: It's like the old adage, how do you eat? How 440 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: do you eat an elephant? Well, you eat at one 441 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: bite at a time. And trust me, this is the 442 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: biggest elephant of all. When you have got human remains 443 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: that are scattered from here to kingdom, come laying all 444 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: out there in this muddy environment, and you're miserable. So 445 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: you have to be very very ordered. And the fact 446 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: that they found this spent round so far away from 447 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: where the rest of the deposition of everything was, it's 448 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: kind of significant. I think it goes to the professionalism 449 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: regarding the investigators, how thorough they were, because this is 450 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: something you could easily pass right over. I suspect that 451 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: you had several people that were out there with metal 452 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: detectors essentially very carefully and methodically may work maybe working 453 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: essentially in a shoulder to shoulder to put it in 454 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: a certain way and kind of sweeping back and forth, 455 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: back and forth gently, kind of moving forward. And whenever 456 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: you get a hit, you take a little flag out 457 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: and you market and then you keep on going. You 458 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: keep on going, and everywhere you get a little hit, 459 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: your market and then you go back and you carefully 460 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: uncover that area. In this particular case, they were able 461 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: to find this projectile buried, from what I understand from 462 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: the report, almost six inches beneath the top layer of soil. Joe, 463 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: can we assume by the fact that this projectile fragment 464 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: was found that this would mean that there was an 465 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: entrance and an exit wound? Oh yeah, yeah, most likely. 466 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: And you know, you look, not only do we find 467 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: a projectile, Jackie, they found they found a handgun as well. 468 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: And this is where ballistics comes in. And I think 469 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: I suspect that more than likely the FBI got on 470 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: this with their lab. The weapon, I can only imagine 471 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: was probably compromising. It was a unique weapon because not 472 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 1: only it's not just a standard thirty eight Special revolver, 473 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: it is a combination thirty eight Special slash three fifty 474 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 1: seven magnum revolver. It's almost like a hybrid. It's kind 475 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: of an unusual weapon, and that makes it unique. It 476 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: makes it unique to Brian Laundry, maybe his family. I 477 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: don't know who actually owned this weapon, but it was 478 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: found there. And then more significantly is that that round 479 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: that I mentioned that was, you know, roughly six inches 480 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,719 Speaker 1: below that top layer of dirt. Ballistically, it matched up 481 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: to this weapon. That means that we've got a significant 482 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: tie back to this weapon. It puts that round coming 483 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: out of that particular handgun because you know, as we've 484 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: talked about many many times on our show and as 485 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: well as with Nancy, there is a specific ballistic fingerprint 486 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: that is left behind on the outer portion of those 487 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: soft lead projectiles and also on the outside of a 488 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: jacket that marries up to the lands and grooves inside 489 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: of that barrel. So, as the medical examiner told us 490 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: in his report, Brian Laundry was killed by a single 491 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: gunshot to the head. What I found interesting in what 492 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 1: was released in this report is the trajectory of the bullet. Yeah, 493 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: isn't that kind of interesting? And you know, just to 494 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: kind of give you an idea. One of the things 495 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: that that we look for and in any kind of 496 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: gunfire related death is to try to determine obviously range 497 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: of fire. That's something that you hear about on a 498 00:28:53,480 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: regular basis. And we also try to determine the trajectory 499 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: of the round. That means the path that travels on. 500 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: And sometimes we can estimate things like whether the round 501 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: is traveling from above to below or from below to above. 502 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: We you know, take a look if it's going from 503 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: front to back, those sorts of things. So it's it 504 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: is significant that we in fact have this, but just 505 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: so our listeners understand the entrance wound that they were 506 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: able to determine that it's interesting and let me tell 507 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: you how we do this, because people say, well, how 508 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: do you know that this is an entrance wound when 509 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: all you have is a skull? Well, it's it's that's 510 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: a great question I'm glad to ask. When we have 511 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: a skull, for instance, we're going to look for what's 512 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: referred to and I remember these words, it's called internal beveling. 513 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: And if you've ever seen a beveled piece of wood 514 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: that's got kind of a rounded edge to it, the 515 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: beveling will always be in the interior of the skull, 516 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: adjacent to the entrance wound. So when you open the 517 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: skull up, you look at it, and if the inner 518 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: wall of the skull is beveled or kind of curved, 519 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: that's an indication that the round actually entered at that point. Now, 520 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: as far as the exit goes, this entrance, let me 521 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: back up. The entrance is actually in the left temporal area. 522 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: Left temporal So if you'll go to your ear, your 523 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: left ear, and simply move your finger forward of your 524 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: left ear. Okay, that's your temporal bone right there. Now, 525 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: what this round does is that it travels from that entrance. 526 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: It travels essentially from left to right. So we're entering 527 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: the left temporal bone and we are exiting out the 528 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: right parietal bone. Some people will say parietal and the 529 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: petal bone is found to the rear and above your 530 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: right ear. You have one on each side, but in 531 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: this case it's going to be the right parietal bone, 532 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,719 Speaker 1: and it's you know, they're matching the scene up so 533 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: that it is slightly above the right ear, and it 534 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: gives you kind of this odd trajectory. So if you'll 535 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: just imagine a rod running from forward of your left 536 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: ear and going coming out behind your right ear. That'll 537 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: give you an idea is how this you know, how 538 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: this round actually traveled through the skull and of course 539 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: it blew out the other side. Now, I know a 540 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: lot of people would ask, well, you know, Morgan, you 541 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: talked about how the you know, the skull is in 542 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: twenty six pieces. I think it was they recovered. You know, 543 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: why is it in twenty six pieces? Why why didn't 544 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: it just you have one hole on one side and 545 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: another hole on the other side. Well, you got you 546 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: gotta understand something. When a weapon is fired into a skull, 547 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: you're not just talking about the projectile itself entering the skull. 548 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: All right. Now here's a bit of science where you 549 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: A lot of us learn this in about the seventh 550 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: or eighth grade in physical science. And this is a 551 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: beautiful thing, particularly when you're looking at death investigation. Now, 552 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: it's not just the projectile, and this is a large projectile. 553 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: It's a hunk of lead coming out of this Out 554 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: of this weapon, you've also got hot expanding gas. And 555 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: if you don't think that's powerful, hang on, all right, 556 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: because the bullet itself, the projectile is creating a hole, right, 557 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: it's creating a hole in the left temporal bone. And 558 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: followed closely behind this bullet is this really hot air. 559 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: If you ever see, like you know, videos of weapons 560 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: being fired at night, it looks like flames are shooting 561 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: out of the end of them, Well it is. That's 562 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: some of that hot air coming out. And hot air 563 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: always expands, it never contracts, so it's going to expand. 564 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: And when you go into what's referred to as the 565 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: cranial vault, which is where our brain is housed, that's 566 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: the inside of the skull that hot air is looking 567 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: to expand. And when we were being formed, when we 568 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: were in fetal development, our skull actually came together along 569 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: these lines that are called sutra lines, and they look 570 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: like teeth that are kind of integrated, and that's one 571 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: of the weaker spots of the skull. So as that 572 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: hot air is expanding out into that cranial vault, all 573 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: of a sudden, those sutra lines blow apart. All right, 574 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: That's why you have these really nasty head injuries. You 575 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: know that you see people with self and maybe people 576 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: have seen these horrible images on the internet. That's one 577 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: of the reasons that happens. You have the projectile plays 578 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: a large role in this, but that hot air that's 579 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: expanding and more than likely it's hard to tell because 580 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: there was no tissue left. More than likely, this is 581 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: what we refer to as a press or a tight 582 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: contact gunshot one. So you're forming a seal over that 583 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: particular area where the projectile went in. And Buddy, let 584 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: me tell you something. That gas wants to seek the 585 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: weakest area that it can so it can do what 586 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: it actually does, and so it blows out all of 587 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: those bits of skull and they just literally come apart. 588 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: That's why you had it not really disintegrate. Disintegrator is 589 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: not accurate, but it became particulate at that point in 590 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: time and came apart. And again this is just like 591 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: the project out. This is a testament to how effective 592 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: these investigators were. And I'm talking about the crime scene investigators. 593 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about detectives. I'm talking about the crime 594 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: scene investigators, the people from the medical exam or how 595 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: tenacious they were at the scene as they recovered that 596 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: many pieces of the skull around the body and they 597 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: were able to bring that in and if they hadn't 598 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: done that. If they hadn't done that where they could 599 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: take it reconstructed essentially, or put it back together as 600 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: best they could with what they had left, you wouldn't 601 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: have the answers to this. You wouldn't know that it 602 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: was from left to right and from the temporal bone 603 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: to the parietal bone and the pitch of it and 604 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things. So they did a bang 605 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: up job with this. One more point that I found 606 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: very interesting in this report, Joe, is the fact that 607 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: the entrance wound is on the left side of Brian 608 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: Laundry's skull. If I am not mistaken, Brian Laundry was 609 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: right handed. Yeah, it's something. And I've heard several people 610 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: kind of offer up opinions about this and the sort 611 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: of thing, people that are hand supposed handgun experts and 612 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: all this. And you know, I don't have an explanation 613 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: for that. I wish I did, I just don't. It's 614 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: it's from an investigative standpoint, it's interesting to me. I 615 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: think that my next question would be, and trust me, 616 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: when I hear things like this, I don't if I 617 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: hear hoofbeats, I don't automatically think that zebra. Okay, I'm 618 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: going to think horse. So with this I would want 619 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: to explore it further. The first question I would ask 620 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: his loved ones and the people in his immediate circle 621 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: was ambidextrious, you know, did he use both his left 622 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: and right hand? And then that that kind of explained 623 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: some things. I don't know. Maybe he only felt comfortable 624 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: holding this weapon in his left hand. I don't know. 625 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: I guess you can imply that there's something maybe ominous 626 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: with that that maybe, you know, people might think that 627 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: someone else was holding a weapon as opposed to him. 628 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: I can't answer that, and I don't know that anybody 629 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: could from a forensics standpoint. Okay, that's that's a question 630 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: that would have to be explored further by law enforcement. 631 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, it is certainly an interesting point of order. 632 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: I think when you begin to think, you do you 633 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: know he's right handed, and that's been definitively stated that 634 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 1: he's done everything with his right hand throughout his life. So, 635 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, I think as a scientist, we would want 636 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: to ask, well, why suddenly, at this moment in time, 637 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 1: did he decide to end his life with his left hand. 638 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: It's very important that you know that these remains have 639 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: been recovered in that we can learn so much I 640 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: think probably from the physical presentation of Brian Launder's remains. 641 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: But you know, I think a lasting question that will 642 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, ever be sufficiently answered. But you have 643 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: to ask, what exactly does the scene tell us about 644 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: what went on in the Carling Reserve, Joe. We know 645 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: on the scene among the things that were recovered besides 646 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: the bones was a backpack and the shoes been along 647 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: into brian laundry. There was a pair of a green shorts, 648 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: a green belt to slip on shoes, a backpack, a 649 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: white metal ring, and the handgun. But in addition to 650 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: this joke, there was a second scene that included some 651 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: animal remains, a handwritten note and a hat, and that 652 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: dry bag that we have talked about so often that 653 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 1: had the journal inside. You know, one of the most 654 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: fascinating things about being a death investigator, Jackie, is fact 655 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: that we we see the end, if you will, physically 656 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: of an individual all that remains, if you will. But 657 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: there's a lot that we kind of learn about what 658 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: was going on relative to an individual at the moment 659 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: time or close approximating the moment time when they took 660 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: their life, you know, what were the last activities that 661 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: they were engaged in, you know, what were they surrounded by? 662 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: What was environment like? And I have no doubt that 663 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,360 Speaker 1: out there in the Carlton Reserve, out there, in that 664 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: thick thick, in that wet environment, that they recovered quite 665 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: a bit. I think that obviously many people are very 666 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: interested in this note. And you know, one of the 667 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: things that kind of came out in these reports was 668 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: that it was a partial note. And I don't know 669 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: really how to define that. I'm hoping that the authorities 670 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 1: will add some clarity to that because I don't know. 671 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 1: I don't know if it means that the note was 672 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: partially written and then he just kind of trailed off 673 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: and didn't finish a sentence. I don't know what that means. 674 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: But they have established that the notebook was there, that 675 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: had a note, and that you know, this dry bag 676 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: that has been speculated about for some time that was 677 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: physically there as well. But you know, I think probably 678 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: one of the most poignant things for me, Jackie that 679 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: kind of really struck a chord with me, not just 680 00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: you know, as an investigator, but as a father, was 681 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,720 Speaker 1: the fact that at the scene they recovered a red 682 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: hat and that had had the words Moab Coffee Roasters 683 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: written on it. And when I read that and contained 684 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: in the scientific report, and it would seem that it's 685 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: just kind of this innocuous thing that, you know, you 686 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: just happen to find it a scene. All I could 687 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 1: do at that moment, Tom was reflect back to a 688 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: young girl on the side of the road, weeping, her 689 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: in this circumstance that she suddenly found herself in that 690 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: she probably didn't want to be in anymore, you know, 691 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: because we've talked a lot about Brian Laundry, and god 692 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,399 Speaker 1: knows a lot has been written about him, had I mean, 693 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: we've got five scientific reports we're talking about today, but 694 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: you know, we haven't mentioned Gabby's name. I'll be damned, 695 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to do this podcast today without mentioning Gabby 696 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,319 Speaker 1: Petito's name, because at the end of the day, that's 697 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: what this is about. The fact that she was out 698 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: on the side of that road and Brian Laundry had 699 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: a hat with him, Jackie, and that hat actually had 700 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: the words Moab Coffee Roasters shot on it. And let's 701 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: think back to what Moab, What significance there was to Moab. 702 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: That's at that moment in time when many people felt 703 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: like that if another path had been taken, this young 704 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: girl would still be with us. And you know, I 705 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: think she's ablemack of a lot of a lot of 706 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: young women across the country, you know, that are in 707 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,839 Speaker 1: these terrible relationships and no one knows and if they 708 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,240 Speaker 1: just taken another path. But that the Moab coffee roaster's 709 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: hat that was there, it had a significance to me 710 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: that went beyond just its evidentially value. It was kind 711 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: of this benchmark moment. And I can only imagine these investigators, 712 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: these investigators out there, it's seen knew what that hat 713 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: meant when they saw it. It's not just something that 714 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, he arbitrarily said, oh well, I've got five 715 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: different baseball caps I'm going to grab and where it. 716 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: He wore that hat out there. He knew what had 717 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: happened in Moab, and it was that one moment in time. 718 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: It was that one moment in time when life could 719 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 1: have changed, but it wound up in this It wound 720 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: up with a young girl that was found brutally throttled 721 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: to death out in the wilderness. Of a place that 722 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: she had never lived, she'd probably never been to before, 723 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: dying all alonge with out there, out there, with nobody 724 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: around her that truly loved her, and another young man 725 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: decomposing in the swamp after he ends his own life. 726 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: And you know, I don't know how much more we 727 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: can really make of it. The science, I think is great, 728 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: but the science doesn't really do it justice, does it 729 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,919 Speaker 1: relative to what she endured for I don't know that 730 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,359 Speaker 1: road trip that they took, and Lord knows for how 731 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 1: many weeks proceeding, maybe even months proceeding that faithful day. 732 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 1: I've Joseph S. Gott Morgan and this is body backs