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Speaker 1: The volume. This is Prime Cuts, the best of the

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Speaker 1: Colin Coward Podcast. Really Interesting Week. Legendary bulls writer Sam Smith,

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Speaker 1: who wrote the great book The Jordan Rules, talks about

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Speaker 1: the inaccuracies of The Last Dance, the documentary about MJ,

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Speaker 1: Driven by MJ, and the bizarre behavior of Scottie Pippen.

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Speaker 1: He would Know. Sports Illustrated senior writer Chris Mannox insights

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Speaker 1: on a possible Damian Lillard trade for Ben Simmons and

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Speaker 1: why Kyrie Irving is untradeable. Plus New York sports broadcaster

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Speaker 1: Michael k Voice of the Yankees, been hosting a talk

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Speaker 1: radio show in New York for years. Got a new

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Speaker 1: book out, Good dude, lot of great stories, a lot

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Speaker 1: of depth. But first, my top takes of the week.

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Speaker 1: If the new NIL rules that's name, Image Likeness rules

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Speaker 1: had always existed, give me a top five athletes who

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Speaker 1: would have cashed in the most. Well, I'll give you three. Tebow,

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Speaker 1: Reggie Bush, Vince Young. The one name being thrown out

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Speaker 1: that I roll my eyes at as Johnny manziel O.

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Speaker 1: Johnny manziel plays for Texas A and M, which is

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Speaker 1: about a quarter the size of Texas in terms of

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Speaker 1: overall fan base and about one third the size of Oklahoma.

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Speaker 1: Johnny Manziel was a blip. Those aggy teams were never

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Speaker 1: a threat to win the national championship, and they're barely

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Speaker 1: barely a regional brand. Texas is a national brand. USC's

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Speaker 1: a national brand, Florida's a southern brand. Texas A and

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Speaker 1: M at best is a marginal state of Texas brand.

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Speaker 1: It's not as big as the Cowboys. It's not as

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Speaker 1: big as Texas. Oklahoma football is bigger than Texas. A

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Speaker 1: and M in Texas. Don't believe me. Look at the

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Speaker 1: players a sign. Over the last twenty years, the best

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Speaker 1: high schoolers of almost always leaned Oklahoma over Texas A

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Speaker 1: and M. The kids in Texas who can play are

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Speaker 1: telling you that after that it's all up for debate.

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Speaker 1: But Tebow, Bush, Finch, Young top three in any order,

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Speaker 1: Scottie Pippen, and Carmelo Anthony would make my first team

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Speaker 1: all lack of self awareness team. I covered Scottie for

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Speaker 1: a couple of years. Scotty's really talented a great athlete,

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Speaker 1: but he just never had an understanding of how he

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Speaker 1: was viewed. He was really athletic and really talented and

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Speaker 1: one of the great defenders in the history the league.

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Speaker 1: Great length, great quickness for his size, offensively a great slasher.

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Speaker 1: But you know, Scotty was always viewed as somebody who

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Speaker 1: when he was briefly given the number one role for

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Speaker 1: the Bulls after a year, he unraveled. Scotty was never

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Speaker 1: emotionally mentally a one. He was a two. He was

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Speaker 1: a small town kid that Chicago's the big city and

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Speaker 1: Michael was big enough for the room. Scotty wasn't. He

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Speaker 1: was in a perfect role as a two, from the interviews,

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Speaker 1: to running the team, to a practice guy, to somebody

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Speaker 1: that you could rely on. He was always viewed as

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Speaker 1: a great two. But Scotty always kind of wanted to

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Speaker 1: be paid like a one and treated like a one.

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Speaker 1: Now many people have insinuated, well, Scotty had a bad contract.

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Speaker 1: He had a right to be mad. Nobody had a

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Speaker 1: worse contract than Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson's first contract was

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Speaker 1: twenty five years, twenty five million dollars. Guys back then,

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Speaker 1: a lot of stars had bad contracts. They made money

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Speaker 1: though they started to make big money, obviously with Jordan

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Speaker 1: and Magic with their shoes, but Scottie's always had a

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Speaker 1: little bit of an axe to grind, And so when

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Speaker 1: Jordan comes out with his ten part documentary and it

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Speaker 1: kind of you marginalizes Scotty, I didn't think it did.

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Speaker 1: I thought, you know, Scotty wasn't that interesting. He was

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Speaker 1: just the second best player on a really fascinating team.

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Speaker 1: Dan was fascinating. The Steve Kerr Michael Jordan relationship where

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Speaker 1: Michael punched him fascinating, the Michael Jerry Krause relationship fascinating,

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Speaker 1: The Coup Coach Pippen Jordan relationship fascinating. You know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Rodman was nuts, Scotty wasn't. Michael was a superstar off

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Speaker 1: the court, Scotty wasn't. Scotty was just really good. And

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Speaker 1: I think the documentary really is the ignition switch for

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Speaker 1: years of an axe to grind and a feeling that,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not viewed as I should be, when

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Speaker 1: in fact, Scotty's viewed, in my opinion, perfectly, never ever

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Speaker 1: could give him the number one role. In fact, Paul

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Speaker 1: George to me, is a more reliable one than and

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Speaker 1: he's viewed as wildly inconsistent. I would build around Paul

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Speaker 1: George before I'd build around Scottie Pippen. Pippin went to Houston.

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Speaker 1: He and Barkley couldn't stand each other. Scotty went to Portland.

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Speaker 1: They didn't dial up place for scot I mean, Rashid

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Speaker 1: Wallace would take the big shot, Steve Smith would take

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Speaker 1: the big shot, or Vitas Sabonis would take the big shot.

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Speaker 1: Scotty was never a guy you had dialed up the

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Speaker 1: big shot for. I said it the other day on television.

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Speaker 1: That Laker Blazer series a seven gamer in the Western

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Speaker 1: Conference Finals. Scotty was three for ten in the game,

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Speaker 1: and oh for three and the fourth. You don't dial

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Speaker 1: up plays for Scottie Pippen. That was never his role.

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Speaker 1: So he writes a book all about vengeance, vindictiveness and

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Speaker 1: its boomerang come right back in his face. And that's

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Speaker 1: what it should do. If you do anything in your

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Speaker 1: life out of vindictiveness, don't be surprised if it comes

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Speaker 1: back to bite you in the ass. And that's what

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Speaker 1: Scotty did, and that's the result. Chauncey Billup's new coach

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Speaker 1: of the Blazers and the dame situation, he's unhappy. Let

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Speaker 1: me start with that, because a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: I was on social media and I had tweeted something

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Speaker 1: and actually Damian Lillard DMed me. Yes, Damian Lillard. I

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Speaker 1: had talked about this on the TV show, and I

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Speaker 1: think we've had enough time. Now we're removed from it

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Speaker 1: far enough I can talk about it. I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to get into too many specifics, but what we discussed

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Speaker 1: was Damian Lillard and his options. So in nine seasons

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Speaker 1: he's the batman. They have not delivered a Robin. And

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Speaker 1: this is where I side with players. Lebron James gave

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Speaker 1: Cleveland seven years, they couldn't get him a second All Star. CJ.

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Speaker 1: McCollum is a very nice player, but how many years

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Speaker 1: have people been screaming their skills are often duplicated. Obviously

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Speaker 1: Dame's better and they have not moved him. So I

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Speaker 1: don't have a ton of sympathy when in eight or

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Speaker 1: nine free agency periods and eight or nine drafts you

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Speaker 1: can't find a really solid second star for Dame. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's easy. Mark Cuban now is going

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Speaker 1: to have to do that with Luca. He's going to

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Speaker 1: have to find a Robin or in five years, four years,

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Speaker 1: Luca will Bolt, but this is the world we're in.

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Speaker 1: Dame when he and I briefly text back and forth,

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Speaker 1: loves Portland, loves the people. But it's the reality he's

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Speaker 1: going to be. What is he? Thirty one in July,

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Speaker 1: drafted by Portland in twenty twelve. He wanted Jason Kidd,

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Speaker 1: they went to the same high school in Alameda. Didn't

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Speaker 1: get him. It's Chauncey Billups. Now. I don't necessarily think

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Speaker 1: players should be hiring coaches, but the reality is Dame's

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Speaker 1: as big a star as Portland has had since you know,

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Speaker 1: Clyde Drexler. He's gonna have some pull. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: Luca wants a coach, then Jason Kidd or Chauncey Billips

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Speaker 1: would be your head coach. The Lakers think they have

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Speaker 1: a shot at him. That's sort of Los Angeles delusion.

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Speaker 1: The Los Angeles Lakers have players. Kcp's a solid player,

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Speaker 1: hot and cold. It's not what Portland wants. Kyle Kuzma

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Speaker 1: Lebron doesn't get along with him. They'd love to move him.

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Speaker 1: He's kind of expensive. It's not the kind of contract

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Speaker 1: you can't move, but it's not necessarily team friendly. Considering

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Speaker 1: he disappears is often in big spots for the Lakers.

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Speaker 1: You know, Dennis Shrewder's a guy that Lakers will probably

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Speaker 1: resign him. But he's a difficult, difficult player I'm told,

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Speaker 1: doesn't get along with a lot of people, can be

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Speaker 1: very difficult to coach, and Frank Vogel's finding that out.

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Speaker 1: You could move Anthony Davis, but he's represented by Clutch Sports,

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Speaker 1: that's Lebron, so they're not going to move him. I

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Speaker 1: just don't think the Lakers have the pieces. You know,

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Speaker 1: Dame works almost everywhere not named Golden State. They've got

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Speaker 1: Steph he works everywhere not named Atlanta with Trey Young,

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Speaker 1: so you're not gonna have problems moving Dame. But I

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Speaker 1: get it. You're at a place eight nine years. They

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Speaker 1: can't deliver a second star. This is where we're at.

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Speaker 1: It's happened before. I love Portland, but you know, it's

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Speaker 1: never even hosted an NBA All Star Game. They don't

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Speaker 1: have enough hotel rooms. It's a small city, you know,

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Speaker 1: in baseball parlance, it's a great Triple A town. And

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Speaker 1: there's a reality here that maybe Jason Kidd could have

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Speaker 1: chosen between Portland and Dallas and chose Dallas. It's in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the country. You have you were hours

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Speaker 1: in the air, no state tax. A lot of players

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Speaker 1: love Dallas, some players love Portland. But listen, it may

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Speaker 1: have come down to that, and Jason Kidd has options.

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Speaker 1: More than one team wanted Jason Kidd. That's where we

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Speaker 1: stand today. But my guess is Dame would have to

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Speaker 1: force his way out of Portland. To leave Portland, he

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Speaker 1: is simply, like Steph Curry, too popular for a GM

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Speaker 1: to move. Portland's GM would probably be better serve. Portland's

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Speaker 1: owner would be better served if Dame came out and

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Speaker 1: said I want out, that would make it easier to

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Speaker 1: move him. They'd lose some leverage. But Dame is so talented.

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Speaker 1: You get a lot of nice things in return. Portland

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Speaker 1: would get a ton of nice things in return. All right,

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Speaker 1: here's Sam Smith Bulls dot Com Chicago trip for years,

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Speaker 1: The Jordan Rules a great book. I've read it twice

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Speaker 1: New York Times Bestseller, so it seems like about once

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Speaker 1: a year, Sam, I call you, or my guys call you.

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Speaker 1: I say, okay, I gotta bring in Sam Smith. We

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Speaker 1: got to talking about this because the Bulls that you

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Speaker 1: covered are more fascinating certain the Bulls today and ninety

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Speaker 1: percent of the league they were. I always said, I

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Speaker 1: said today, it's like the Rolling Stones. If you did

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Speaker 1: a documentary on him, there'd be the Keith Richards didn't

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Speaker 1: show up to the concert. You know, there would be

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Speaker 1: the Mick Jagger Keith fights. There would be It's just

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Speaker 1: a fascinating team that you covered. And I covered Scottie

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Speaker 1: for two years in Portland and I always felt he

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Speaker 1: had a little bit of an axe to grind, but

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Speaker 1: didn't He would talk to you privately about it. And

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Speaker 1: then Michael does the documentary and he's like, Okay, the

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Speaker 1: gloves are off, I'm going to write a book. Here

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Speaker 1: we go. So I think sam My gut feeling is

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Speaker 1: it's an ill advised book that he would not have

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Speaker 1: written if there wasn't a documentary. Am I right or

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Speaker 1: wrong on that? Yes? And no. When you're with him

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Speaker 1: and you get talked to him, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: have to, you know know him in Portland. You know

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Speaker 1: he's very personable. I find to get along with him

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Speaker 1: well and then and these outrages come along every so

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Speaker 1: often and you're like you're like a maze, like where

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Speaker 1: did that come from? But you know, one thing I

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Speaker 1: wanted to say about Scottie, because you know I was

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Speaker 1: around him from when he came into the NBA his

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Speaker 1: entire career. I never run across an athlete that or

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Speaker 1: you know, act or whatever. You make these great comparisons.

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Speaker 1: Who has such a resilient ability to come off the

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Speaker 1: matt from things that nobody would survive, you know, not

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Speaker 1: only eight seconds, which gets discussed it was your favorite grade. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know in the nineteen ninety finals, nineteen you know,

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Speaker 1: seventh game of the conference finals, sitting there with a

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Speaker 1: towel over his head. He's the sort of the ultimate

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Speaker 1: of quitting and comes back and there's a Star Wars

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Speaker 1: champions in the next year. So yeah, and so many

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Speaker 1: outrages where I remember one great story if you have time.

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Speaker 1: We were in Bob on the trip and Scotty goes

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Speaker 1: off on Jerry Krause I hate him, uh, just bashing him.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, this is a newspaper here, you know,

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Speaker 1: before you know media, you know, Twitter, all that sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff. So we get to Chicago the next morning

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Speaker 1: and there's TV trucks all over because the media didn't

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Speaker 1: travel back then. The TV and radio, and the truck's

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Speaker 1: all over the place and TV and Scotty walks in

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Speaker 1: and to Phil, what's you know what, what's all the

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Speaker 1: TV here? What did something happen? And Phil goes, well,

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Speaker 1: know to hit to see you? He said, well why,

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Speaker 1: he said, well, well you said last night he's gotta

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Speaker 1: go what I say, you know, like it was a

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Speaker 1: big deal. And it's always been like that that he says.

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Speaker 1: He does these, you know, sort of like you know

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Speaker 1: Mark Twain, you old, you know, better to keep your

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Speaker 1: mouth closed and let him think you're the full than

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Speaker 1: open it, and and you know, show otherwise, and Scotty

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Speaker 1: does and then just keeps going on, so you know,

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Speaker 1: writing a book like you said, yeah it maybe it'd

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Speaker 1: be ill advised. And you're thinking, you know, here he

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Speaker 1: and start betting smarter. Let's go back to the Last Dance.

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Speaker 1: I have said that I think it was it was

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Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's view. And this is all documentaries, they're not journalism.

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Speaker 1: Whoever the documentarian is, it's their view of an event

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Speaker 1: or a time period. I think mostly MJ's Last Dance.

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Speaker 1: I remember the moments it did have a Michael lean

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Speaker 1: to it. Were there things in it the Last Dance

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Speaker 1: that Sam, you just take exception too and go, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's a bunch of bullshit, all right, that didn't happen.

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Speaker 1: Were there because a lot of it was public. We

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Speaker 1: knew about Krasse, MJ. We knew a lot, But Sam,

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Speaker 1: we're there are things in the Last Dance that, forget

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Speaker 1: Pempin that you took exception to. People have asked me

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Speaker 1: about it, obviously you have, and what I say, I said,

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Speaker 1: it's one of those TV movies that you see on

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Speaker 1: and they put up a disclaimer and say based on

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Speaker 1: a true story. So yeah, the story essentially is true,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of elements were and it's sort of

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Speaker 1: for drama, like with the pizza thing in the Utah hotel, right,

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Speaker 1: the actually he didn't have the flu. What he really

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Speaker 1: had and nobody'd ever said it. You know, I knew,

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Speaker 1: we knew what the doctors he had, altitude sickness, but

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Speaker 1: it didn't sound cool enough. Now I don't know why

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Speaker 1: he changed it to make up the pizza poison pizza thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, because he got out, he sort of escaped

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Speaker 1: with the flu. Everybody bought that. It sounded good, but

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Speaker 1: they were up in Park City and kept traveling back

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Speaker 1: and forth into the valley, you know, for practice, back

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Speaker 1: and forth, back and forth, and the doctors around the

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Speaker 1: team felt what he had was altitude sickness, but it

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Speaker 1: didn't sound like something Michael Jordan would have. The biggest

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Speaker 1: thing was and it's been the history that that the

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Speaker 1: Bulls broke up the team, that they forced this, and

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Speaker 1: Jordan in the documentary says they should have given us actually,

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Speaker 1: and I know this. Jordan has since apologized to the

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Speaker 1: Bulls and said, well, maybe I shouldn't have said that,

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Speaker 1: but what happened there, saw the stuff that happened, you know,

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Speaker 1: between the Bulls did offer contracts to everybody Jordan would

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Speaker 1: come back, and of course they were getting they were

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Speaker 1: all free agents and we're getting bigger offers. Scotty, particularly

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Speaker 1: with Houston and the Bulls accommodated at Scotty's top deal

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Speaker 1: was thirty eight million. They did a sign and trade

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Speaker 1: to get him to seventy six. Now, of course Houston

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Speaker 1: regretted that because Scotty had back surgery again after the

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Speaker 1: ninety eighth season, and that's when you saw him in Portland.

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Speaker 1: He was no longer an athlete. That's why he couldn't

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Speaker 1: do you know, he was a facilitator completely. He couldn't

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Speaker 1: make plays then like he could athletically with the Bulls.

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Speaker 1: But that that what Jordan commediately left. That was during

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Speaker 1: that lockout season in ninety seven ninety eight he cut

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Speaker 1: his finger open on a cigar thing. He out have surgery,

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Speaker 1: so he wasn't gonna be able to play that season.

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Speaker 1: So this give us a chance to come back. Thing

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Speaker 1: was like, what are you talking about? You couldn't play,

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Speaker 1: So though, there was that, So there were a couple

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Speaker 1: of things like that. But you know, it's like like

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Speaker 1: I said, with a good move. You know, you said

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Speaker 1: a lot of time you're watching a good movie and

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Speaker 1: you say, well that you think to yourself, that couldn't happen,

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Speaker 1: but you want to let it go along because it's

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Speaker 1: just as good drama. And yeah, basically we all knew

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Speaker 1: that that story that was the story. It was a

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Speaker 1: chance for all of us to look back and appreciate it,

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Speaker 1: you know, me included, because when you're going through it,

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Speaker 1: you know, you didn't appreciate not that I was there,

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Speaker 1: but you probably didn't appreciate the Gettysburg address as much

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Speaker 1: as when you look back on it. But at the

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Speaker 1: time when he read those you know, twenty minutes of words,

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Speaker 1: you were thinking, all right, that's good, but I've heard

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Speaker 1: better than that, you know. And then when you you know,

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Speaker 1: you think about it, say, it's pretty cool. And so

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Speaker 1: when it's every day and you're going to the next game,

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Speaker 1: in the next game and building the next story and

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Speaker 1: can they you know, you don't appreciate it as much.

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Speaker 1: And so now you know, twenty thirty years later to

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Speaker 1: stand back and see it like we did. So I

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Speaker 1: wasn't going to quibble about some of the some of

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Speaker 1: the things that came up that well, maybe not exactly,

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Speaker 1: but you know, for the story made it good story.

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Speaker 1: Zach Levine, you watch him on a nightly basis. I

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Speaker 1: don't twenty seven a game yet has one of the

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Speaker 1: lower winning percentages. I've said about Zach levine talents there

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel like a winning basketball player, just a super

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Speaker 1: talented basketball player. You tell me you see him more

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Speaker 1: than I do. What's the story with him? Well, because

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Speaker 1: you know, probably because I see him every game. You know,

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Speaker 1: i'd be biased, but I think it's really unfair to

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Speaker 1: judge a players as a failure to win because he

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Speaker 1: hasn't won, which he would sound. You know, the circumstances

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Speaker 1: of Zach and I mean, he came to a Minnesota

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Speaker 1: team that was rebuilding, essentially was starting over. You know,

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Speaker 1: it gets into his third year when's you know, dune

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Speaker 1: contestant all shows his athleticism and then gets traded to

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Speaker 1: a team that again is starting over. So basically six

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Speaker 1: of his first seven years he was playing with teams

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Speaker 1: trying to lose for draft picks. And so yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how you can necessary. I mean you can,

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Speaker 1: you know, because we judge, we judge. It sort of

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Speaker 1: been reversed. We say, well, let's see what happened, and

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Speaker 1: then we'll tell you why it happened. Rather than saying

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Speaker 1: we think this will happened, we say, well, if they

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Speaker 1: look if he lost he must be a loser, and

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Speaker 1: I think he's I think he's a unique talent. He

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Speaker 1: fortunately this season and at least with the Bulls, has

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Speaker 1: not been able to play with a Chris Paul. I

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Speaker 1: think Phoenix is the perfect example. Look at Devin Booker.

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Speaker 1: Zach is way better than Devin Booker. He can do

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Speaker 1: everything Devin Booker can and better, and he's bigger, and

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Speaker 1: he's more athletic. And Devin Booker scored seventy or eighty points,

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Speaker 1: but seventy points whatever he got and never was in

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Speaker 1: a playoff game. And then what do you know, Chris

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Speaker 1: Paul shows up and a guy who knows how to

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Speaker 1: play pass the game, knows when to get you the

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Speaker 1: ball at the right spot and you don't have to

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Speaker 1: be carrying the ball over the place making turnovers and

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Speaker 1: things you notice at the end of games when Booker,

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Speaker 1: when they give the ball, is a turnover, It is

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Speaker 1: a bad isolation, is a bad shot. When Chris has

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Speaker 1: the ball and he can score and get a position,

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Speaker 1: that's what Zach needs. If you get yeah, he's not

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Speaker 1: you know, he's not Michael Jordan that you're going to

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Speaker 1: give him the ball and he can finish every game

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Speaker 1: without making mistakes. He's not a natural ball handler. He's

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Speaker 1: good enough, you know, he's good enough to you know,

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Speaker 1: big ball screens or pick and roll and play and

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Speaker 1: make plays off the dribble, but not being as your

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Speaker 1: primary guy against the defense. If the balls can get

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Speaker 1: someone like that and it's hard to do, he can

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Speaker 1: be what Devin Booker has become. Devin Booker was a loser.

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Speaker 1: Now he's in the you know, probably going to be

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Speaker 1: in the finals or you know, uh, we see how

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00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:48,239
Speaker 1: a Clipper series goes. But you know, Zach's but he is.

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Speaker 1: He is a way better player than he's been given

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Speaker 1: credit for. And one thing, it's like what they're into it.

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Speaker 1: This is the most amazing recovery to me in the

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Speaker 1: history of sports. He had the worst knee injury possible.

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Speaker 1: Cl I saw that happened with Derek Rose, and Derek

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Speaker 1: as good as you could come back, is not the

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Speaker 1: same physical player. Doesn't go in the air like he did.

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Speaker 1: Zach goes in the air like nobody in the AA

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Speaker 1: after an ACL unheard of. Nobody's ever played like this

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Speaker 1: after an ACL with that kind of athleticism an a

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Speaker 1: game by game basis, I think He's just truly remarkable

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Speaker 1: player about you know, about to burst through and hopefully

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Speaker 1: gets a chance. You know, he made the Olympic team.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into it with Chris Mannox. My Buddy Mannix

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Speaker 1: is a senior writer for Sports Illustrated. We hired him

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Speaker 1: at the volume. His boxing podcast, Boxing with Chris Mannox,

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Speaker 1: drops every Friday. So let's bring him in. Damian Lillard,

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Speaker 1: who about two weeks ago dm me. I'd sent out

423
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: a tweet regarding him, and you know, he DM me

424
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: and we went back and forth, and you know, he

425
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: was just he was very cool about it. He was

426
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: just sort of exploring his options. He loves Portland. He

427
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: liked everything about Portland. But you know, one of the

428
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: things I kept saying is, hey man, you go eight

429
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 1: years at a place and they can't get your second star.

430
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: I never have a problem with anybody moving. I can

431
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: do radio TV for forty years. You got about twelve

432
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: and then you start falling apart. And I look at

433
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 1: this situation and that CJ. McCollum is a nice player,

434
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: but he duplicates much of what Dame does. And there's

435
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 1: been people myself included saying for three years, get wing scoring.

436
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: You've got to get better on the wing. I mean,

437
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: especially now that Lebron at Kawhi, Leonard or West. And

438
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: I don't feel a ton of pity for Portland like

439
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: they've run this thing back like three, four or five years, Chris,

440
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: and even though I mean, so your first, your takeaway

441
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: on that, and second, I think you can get a

442
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: load for Dame. I think a lot of guys want

443
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: to play with him. Well. Look, as a couple, thing

444
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 1: that I've been kind of feeling about this one is,

445
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: you know, if Damian Lillar wants to leave, he owes

446
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: Portland nothing like he has given them everything he's had

447
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: for what the last nine years, and you know it,

448
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: their failures do not fall at his shoulders. Their failures

449
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: fall on a lack of talent around him, inconsistent play

450
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: around him, myriad other reasons. And look, every passing day

451
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: that loss to the the Nuggets just feels worse and worse,

452
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: Like that's a Nuggets team that was had the doors

453
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: blown off them by Phoenix and the Blazers lose in

454
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: six games. So you can't really look at this Blazers

455
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: team after that and say, all right, well, the return

456
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: of Zach Collins is going to make all the difference

457
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: with that group. It's just not now like I kind

458
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: of take some issue and again I reiterate, like Dame

459
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: has the right to kind of push his way out,

460
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: but how it's kind of being handled. It reminds me

461
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: almost like a guy breaking up with a girl for

462
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: the first time, like he doesn't know how to do it,

463
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: Like he's sort of doing it in this this this

464
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: sort of ham handed way where you know, it's he's

465
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: speaking to Chris Haynes, but I want Jason Kidd when

466
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: he's never kind of done stuff like that gone public

467
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: about you know, personnel coach whatever in the past. Um,

468
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, Haynes recently wrote, you know, Haynes and obviously

469
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: Dame have a great relationship. This is yeah to me anyway,

470
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: it feels like it's all coming from him, like and

471
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: it's it's like, you know, taking issue with some of

472
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: the stuff people are saying about him on social media. Well,

473
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: I mean, who cares what people on Instagram and Twitter

474
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: say about you? I mean that you can't let that

475
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: represent the fan base at large. It just feels like

476
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: Dame kind of sees what we see Colin that that

477
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: it's kind of over in Portland, and he's in his

478
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: early thirties, and he could stay there, he's under contract

479
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 1: through twenty twenty five, make a lot of money, you know,

480
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 1: cement himself as the greatest Blazer of all time. Or

481
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: he can move on and try to work with the

482
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: Blazers to finding a trade partner. Now, I happen to

483
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: think that's the best thing for both sides. Like I

484
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: understand the guys incredibly popular and sells tickets and makes

485
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: you relevant in a national way, But is it really

486
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: worth like three more years of first or at best

487
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: second round playoff exits, Like we don't look at this

488
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: Blazers team and say, even with him a column deal

489
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: that would put them buff Utah or Phoenix or the

490
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: Lakers or the Clippers. Teams are gonna be there for

491
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: the next four years, not to mention the teams behind

492
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: them that are coming up, you know very quickly, is

493
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: it really worth all that? Like Portland, I think you're

494
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: right could get a haul for Damian Lillard. I mean

495
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: you could you deal with the right team, and all

496
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: it takes is one as Sam Presty that all it

497
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: takes is one team to go crazy and you get

498
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 1: a haul and a half back for them, you know,

499
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: you can start to rebuild this franchise in the way

500
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: you have to do it. I mean, I just, I

501
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: just I think I think both these sides kind of

502
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: know what has to happen, but neither one seems to

503
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: know how to do it. At this point, they seem

504
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: to seem to be very confused as to how to

505
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: make this split actually happen. And hopefully they can get

506
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: on the same page in the next couple of months

507
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: and everybody can win with the results. You know, it's funny.

508
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: I a lot of people on the you know, the

509
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: Internet are making the Lakers look like a viable option.

510
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: And you know, there's two things that jump out to me,

511
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: and I've said it was I don't think they have

512
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: anything to give unless they wanted to move off Anthony Davis,

513
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: and because the Clutch sports, they won't do that. Yet,

514
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: nobody wants nothing against KCP, nothing against you know, Dennis

515
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: Shrewder is very difficult. I've heard he's been difficult to

516
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: coach Kuzma. Lebron and Kuzma don't even their body language

517
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: is horrible. Lebron likes Caruso, but it feels like he

518
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: could bail on anybody else. So I don't think they

519
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: have a lot of pieces. But I the one thing

520
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: that is interesting when you look at Portland, Dame's a

521
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: good guy. He could work everywhere. Most of the teams

522
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: that have the assets are Western teams, and I'm sorry,

523
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have a hard time Damon come back to

524
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: burn me. Is there an Eastern team? I mean, obviously

525
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: Portland ideally would like to move him out, you know

526
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: of the time zone. Is there a team that works

527
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: for you when it comes to Lillard? I mean, you

528
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: could deal with Philadelphia and talk to Ben Simmons, because

529
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: if you're making a deal like this, you can't do

530
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: it for like a Bradley Beal centered package or something

531
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: like that. You have to if you're going to get

532
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: another superstar back, it's got to be a superstar under

533
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: contract for the foreseeable future. And Ben Simmons, despite his wartz,

534
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: is still a perennial All Star who is under contract

535
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: as long as Dame is through twenty twenty five. That

536
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: to me, is the only Eastern Conference team that makes well.

537
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: I mean, you know what, as I think about it now,

538
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: with the Eastern groun like Boston could could find a

539
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: way to get there. Like, you know, would you rather

540
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: have Jalen Brown or Ben Simmons like as a centerpiece

541
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: of a deal? This sung well, Jalen Brown. Jalen Brown

542
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: is much more coachable. Yeah he is. He'll give your healing.

543
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: I think, well, he also he plays defense. I mean,

544
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: Ben plays great defense, can't shoot. Jalen's really molded himself

545
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: into a nice twenty two point a game. What do

546
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: the average this year twenty four he was right around

547
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: he was in the twenties. And one thing, I mean,

548
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,239
Speaker 1: living in Boston, I've covered him a lot, like you know,

549
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: he's he improves every single year like this was his

550
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: best year and he just the way this guy works,

551
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: I can easily see him becoming twenty five twenty six

552
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: points per game, forty percent three point shooter. That's not

553
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: nothing like that. That's that's a real asset who at

554
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: twenty four years old under contract, which is manageable by

555
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: the way, for I think at least the next three years.

556
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: You you could build around him. Boston, as we've noted

557
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: many times in the past, protect its draft picks like

558
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,479
Speaker 1: they're there kids, you know, so They've got all their

559
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: assets there at their disposal. Some decent young players, not great,

560
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: but decent young players you can throw at that. Next

561
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: there's somebody I think that could make a run at

562
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: Damian Lillard. I fundamentally believe that Harden and Kevin Durant

563
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: work great together and they could win a championship with

564
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: a good bench. I think what the Sons have been

565
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: able to do because of Cameron Payne is played Chris

566
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: thirty one minutes, and it's a really healthy, energized Chris Paul.

567
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: At the end of games. You know you're getting into

568
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: a situation when you have no bench, and the Warriors

569
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: ran into this. You know you're just playing your starters

570
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: forty plus minutes in these grueling series. And I think

571
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: hardened Durant and a steady, strong bench where Kevin can

572
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: play thirty three Harden thirty four, that's a championship team

573
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 1: to me, especially coming out of the East. And I

574
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: gotta tell you, when I saw the Kyrie Irving trade

575
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: rumor or talk, I thought, that's the guy that worries me.

576
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: He's erratic. He's erratic physically, he can be erratic emotionally.

577
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: You know, I always joke. If any of your friends

578
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: said the Earth is flat, you'd be just done calling them.

579
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: I know it was a joke, but there's part of

580
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: me that thinks it's sort of Kyrie. He's kind of

581
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: out there, and I don't know, there's always a taker

582
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: for somebody of his skill level. But I did kind

583
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: of buy into it that I part of that. I

584
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: read that and I thought, God, we saw Harden really

585
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: grew this year. His distribution was terrific. I thought he

586
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: was really I mean, I was always you know, I

587
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: knew he was a great offensive player, Chris, but I

588
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: always kind of I thought he was two ball centric.

589
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: He looked worn down in the playoffs, hard to play with,

590
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: didn't give you much of an effort on the defensive end.

591
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: And then I watched this year and I'm like, no,

592
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm in I like him. I think the Kyrie irving rumors,

593
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: I think there's got to be something to it. It

594
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: does make a little sense, right, well, regardless of it

595
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: makes sense, it is as resolutely not gonna happen like

596
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: for but for the first thing I thought of when

597
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: I saw those rumors pop was the incredibly uncomfortable conversation

598
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: Sean Mark's gonna have to have with Kyrie because every

599
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: every GM, like and I've had these phone calls with

600
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: gms after I've written something about, you know, a trade

601
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: talk that was taking place, Like, dude, now I gotta

602
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: call this guy and tell him we're not doing it

603
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: and say, like, we still love you. This just media

604
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: b and media. Don't worry about it. Put it out

605
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: of your mind. So I would imagine Sean Marks had

606
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: to have that conversation with Kyrie Irving. Even if you

607
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: believe that, like you're saying that Kyrie, a package that

608
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: you get back for players for Kyrie makes you a

609
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: better team. Overall, nobody's gonna require Kyrie Irving like Kyrie.

610
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: Unless Kyrie comes out and says I want to be

611
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: a team X, nobody's gonna trade for him. We saw

612
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: what happens in those situations when Kyrie's unhappy. It's called

613
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: the Boston Celtics of twenty eighteen nineteen. Nobody's bringing that

614
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: guy in if he doesn't want to be there, because

615
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: he's only to let it be known that he doesn't

616
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: want to be there, it's gonna bleed out one way

617
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: or the other. And if you're trying to build something

618
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: you can't. I don't think you can bring in a

619
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: player that's not all in on your particular situation. I

620
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 1: just to me, it's it's highly improbable that's something like

621
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: that could ever come to fruition. For that reason, that's

622
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: amazing that a top five finisher in the league is

623
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: so toxic he's untradeable. I don't even remember anything, I

624
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: mean because I mean again, we don't have there's nothing,

625
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: there's no crime committed. It's just I mean, you know,

626
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: I mean, Kyrie's flaky. He's a little too erratic for me.

627
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: I could never build around him. But that's amazing. So

628
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: your your takeaway as he is just off limits nobody

629
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: because I look at Miami and I think they need size.

630
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: Could they go Bama to Bayou? They're done with Tyler

631
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: Hero put him off the bench for Kyrie, Like I think,

632
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: oh that that works, and you're to use zero chance?

633
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: You would have to. It'd have to be a discussion

634
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,479
Speaker 1: with Kyrie Irving. But if it's if it's a Miami

635
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: you'd have to go to him and say, look, Miami's

636
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: man is an offer. We think it makes our team better,

637
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: But do you want to go there? Like, do you

638
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: want to play there? Because Miami's believe it, my god,

639
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: Miami would have zero tolerance for any Kyrie antics. Like

640
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: that's a as zero tolerance a team as they get. Um,

641
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: you'd have to it'd have to be in consultation with

642
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: Kyrie Irving. And I can't think of too many teams

643
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: that he would want to go to at this point.

644
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: He signed with Brooklyn because of it's near his hometown,

645
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 1: and he wants to play with Kevin Durant like they are.

646
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: They remain very close friends. So I just I just

647
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: can't envision a scenario where the Nets just seek something

648
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: they like get the other team to make a deal,

649
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: which is I think more difficult to come together and

650
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: just unilaterally deal. Kyrie calling Kyrie, you've covered him. Kyrie

651
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: woud strike me as the kind of guy I'll be like,

652
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: you know what, I retire, Like, yeah, that's what he

653
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 1: kinda he might like. It might be like, I'm done,

654
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: I don't need basketball. I'm going to go, you know,

655
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: do whatever it is I do when I disappear off

656
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: the map, you know, and go travel the world and

657
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: do stuff like that. That's the kind of guy you

658
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: might You might turn out being at that point. So

659
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 1: it's it's just to me, there are too many issues

660
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 1: to unravel before you could do a deal like that.

661
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 1: His name is Michael k. Longtime play by play voice

662
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 1: of The Yankees on the S Network, talk show host

663
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: ESPN New York Radio and the highly competitive and volatile

664
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 1: afternoon slot, and host of the Emmy winning Center Stage,

665
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: also on the Yes Network. He's got a book called

666
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: Center Stage, My Most Fascinating Interviews from a Rod to

667
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: Jay Z. So. I grew up in the West Coast, Michael,

668
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: and the West Coast, for whatever reasons, is not as combative.

669
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 1: It's not Philadelphia, it's not New York. You do talk radio,

670
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: you make a nice living and you go on with

671
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: your day and so and then I go to ESPN

672
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: and I turn it on and it's hosts firing at

673
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: each other. There's a rancor, there's an angst to it.

674
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: And in that you stayed sort of above ground as

675
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: kind of a more likable, relatable family guy. Are there

676
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: times you think, what the fuck is wrong with this business?

677
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: What is going on? It's it's you know, it's so weird, Colin,

678
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: Because when when my show was battling Mike Francessa. It

679
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: was covered in the newspapers, in the taboys, like it

680
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: was a beat. I mean there was a guy who

681
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: covered that. I mean the ratings, the weeklies. I imagine

682
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: the weeklies are covered. And there was a lot of pressure.

683
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: So you finally like vanquish the King and you feel like,

684
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: well that's over now. And now they bring in somebody else,

685
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,439
Speaker 1: Craig Carton, who's a very talented guy, and the war

686
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: start all over again. And the thing that makes it

687
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: difficult and you work for ESPN, I mean it's owned

688
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: by Disney, and I also worked for the Yankees, and

689
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: there's a certain decorum you have to have where you

690
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: can't really get that down in the gutter when your

691
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: competition is able to Now, I still have confidence that

692
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: will ultimately prevail, but you know, you kind of your

693
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: hands are tied a little bit. No. When I came

694
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: over to Fox, they told me in their pitch they said,

695
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: you're not an ESPN guy, You're a Fox guy. They're like,

696
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: you're not. They're like, it's done that you work at

697
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: the ESPN, but you're more of a Fox guy. You

698
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: feel more West Coast, a little loose, a little bit

699
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: of a loose cannon. And I didn't take that as

700
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: you know, that wasn't a criticism. I was like, I

701
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: can do both. Whatever it doesn't it's interesting, I'll say this.

702
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons I started this podcast company

703
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: because I said, it's a more authentic version of me.

704
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: I could just talk to you like this at a bar,

705
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: at your house, my house, whatever. My takeaway and frances

706
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: was always it's almost a Trumpian thing where if you

707
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: listen to my show and you've listened to it enough

708
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: to know that some of it's tongue in cheek a

709
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 1: big portion of it, you know it's theatrical. I'm over

710
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 1: the top sometimes. Now that doesn't mean I'm not serious, Michael,

711
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: and I'll do a probing interview, but my show is

712
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, it's fun, it's light. Francesa

713
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: has this Trumpian quality where he thinks and it's very

714
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: odd that everything he talks about, from presidential debates to

715
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: medicare should be taken as fact. And at first I

716
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: thought it was a bit. Ten years ago, I thought

717
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 1: this is a bit, and like the al Albuquerque moment,

718
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: and I'm like, it's not a bit. He's a very.

719
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: I don't know him, I've met him once. He's a

720
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 1: very A Trumpian is the word I use, because Trump

721
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: just bullshits people constantly and pretends he's an expert and

722
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: really knows very little. It did you was the ranker

723
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: and the animosity with francessor real between you two. Toward

724
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: the end, it was because I think as we crept closer,

725
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: because he was there for thirty years and he was

726
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: on top. And you know the thing that angered me

727
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: is he talked down about us, and he would call

728
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,479
Speaker 1: us the peace shooter. And you know ESPN in New York.

729
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: I mean, ESPN is such a monolith. The radio wasn't

730
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 1: that ultra important. They care, but it's not like an

731
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: it's fa and and that's all they do. And then

732
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: he started talking down to us. And then when the

733
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: Yes Network dropped him on the simulcast and put me on,

734
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: he said, the only reason I did that is that

735
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: could control me. And then you're talking about my ethics

736
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: and morals and that really angered me. And there was

737
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: a real animosity there. It got nasty. And when we

738
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: finally beat him, I mean, I gotta tell you, I've

739
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: had a lot of good feelings in my life, some

740
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: off the radio, some off TV. That's up there. I mean,

741
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: I felt, great, well you should. Craig Carton's another guy

742
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: I only met twice. I'll tell you Craig carton story

743
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: and it's funny. So about five or six years ago,

744
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 1: before he had his really rough situation, right, a really

745
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: really important executive had asked me, what do you think

746
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: of Craig Carton. They were they were thinking of a

747
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: TV show, TV radio show. And again I'm not real

748
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: intuitive on stuff like this, I said, I think he'd

749
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: be a last to hang out with. I think he's

750
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: probably got a big heart, but I don't know if

751
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: i'd ever trust Craig Carton. And about a year and

752
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: a half later his life unraveled. I think he's really

753
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: I like Craig's talent. I think he's sort of a

754
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: chem trail of narcissism, and you know he you know

755
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: how everybody has a side hustle. I think his life

756
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: sometimes feels like a side hustle. But I do think

757
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: he has a heart of gold. I think he can

758
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: do really wonderful things, and I think he does deep

759
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: down have remorse. What do you make of him? Because

760
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: I don't think there's never been a radio personality like him,

761
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: maybe in the country. I think Colin that he is

762
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,479
Speaker 1: tremendously talented. I mean, he really knows how to push

763
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: buttons as a radio host. He knows how to agitate, instigate,

764
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 1: and that's all pretty good when you're taking phone calls

765
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: and trying to keep an audience. I think that he

766
00:41:54,760 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: will say anything, do you get ratings? And I believe

767
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: Eve that's he has remorse about what happened. And we

768
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: had him on the air when he got fired from

769
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: F A N and everything came crumbling down. We had

770
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 1: him on for an hour on an interview and I

771
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: thought he was very forthright and humble and all that.

772
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: And then he called me up said would you like

773
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: to I'd like to have lunch with you before I

774
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: go away. So we had about an hour and a

775
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: half lunch. And I think he's you know, as you said,

776
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: he's a great guy to hang with. He's really funny,

777
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: he's very clever, he's very bright. And now I don't

778
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: listen to a show because they're on up against him.

779
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 1: People tell me, well, he says the worst things about you.

780
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: I don't he can't feel like that about me because

781
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: I've never given him a reason. I never go at

782
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 1: him on the air, never refer to him on the air,

783
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: but he does say things about me and to me,

784
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: that's a part of the fight that I don't like.

785
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get down in the dirt. Not

786
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: at my age. I've been around it too long, and

787
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: I do work for like two Tiffany brands that would

788
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: probably frown on it anyway. But Craig is a very

789
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: aggressive guy on the air, and that's who he is, Yeah,

790
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: and a very aggressive guy in real life as well.

791
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: The only time I've ever done an interview that I

792
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 1: recall that I couldn't air was Lawrence Taylor. I thought

793
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: he was on something. I knew he was on something.

794
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: I just couldn't air it I did. I don't do

795
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: many pretaped interviews. I did one and I just turned

796
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: to my staff and I'm like, that can't go on

797
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: the air. You had a similar feel with Mike Tyson.

798
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: I see him was two hours late, and when you're

799
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: running a television show, time is money. They're cameraman, a

800
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 1: lot of staff, you're ranking out studios and things like that.

801
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: Showed up two hours later and showed up with two buddies.

802
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: Then they were paired into his dressing room and they

803
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: were there for about an hour, and from underneath the

804
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 1: door you smelled skunk pot so they were getting high.

805
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: And then he comes out and he was feeling it.

806
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: You could tell, you can see his eyes. But you know, timesy,

807
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: let's do let's do the interview, Colin. I'll tell you what.

808
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: He sat there and for over an hour he either

809
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: started weeping, laughing, up, roariously, happy, sad. I thought he

810
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: was going to hit me. At one point, everybody in

811
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: the audience was sitting on the edge of their seat,

812
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 1: sitting on the edge of their seat. It was so

813
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: raw and so visceral. And I found this out only

814
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: three weeks ago. It's not in the book because I

815
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: found it out three weeks ago. So the show ends

816
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: and you leave the show and you go, wow, that

817
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: was something, because he let it all out. The show

818
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: airs on Yes, and a guy who's watching the show

819
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: by the name of Spike Lee. He watches the entire show,

820
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: picks up the phone, calls up Tyson and goes, that's

821
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: a one man Broadway show. What you just did? And

822
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: that was the start of Tyson on Broadway. That's crazy.

823
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: There's an out unbelievable and you know Mike complaint to

824
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: Spike about little for the effort. I wasn't in it,

825
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, Interviewing is funny. I had a rough one

826
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: with Jim Harball that I had to end it. Jim

827
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: was just Jim's on the spectrum a little and he

828
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: was just not in the mood, and I could be

829
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 1: on the spectrum a little and I could sense it

830
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: was just going nowhere and ended it. Did you ever

831
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: have to end it or stop production? Of God? If

832
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: you didn't stop with Tyson? It doesn't sound like anything

833
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: would stop it. But was there ever a moment you thought, Jesus,

834
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: this is awful. The worst We've got two hundred and

835
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: forty interviews in twenty years, and there's thirty five in

836
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: the book, and the worst one ever was Dennis Quake,

837
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: the actor. So he was promoting the movie The Rookie.

838
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: You remember the teacher who became a pitcher for the

839
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: Tampa Bait Jim Walk. Yeah, So he shows up at

840
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: the studio and I guess he thought it was like

841
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 1: a Regis and Kelly thing where eight minutes he's out

842
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: and he's told it's an hour, and he's chapped, which

843
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: I don't understand how his people, his handlers wouldn't have

844
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Speaker 1: told him that. So he sits down on the chair,

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00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: in the chair and he's not ready to play, and

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00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm asking him questions. So it's an eight segment show,

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00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: and this is the first two segments. Every answer Colin

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00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 1: is yes, no, yes, no, all right, oh god. So

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00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: after the second segment we go to commercial and I

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00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 1: lean over, I said, hey, listen, the show's an hour.

851
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 1: You can't speed it up. I got thousands of questions.

852
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: You're gonna look bad. I'm not. It's up to you

853
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: how you want this to go. And like he was

854
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: stunned that somebody would talk to him like that. You know,

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00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: he's a big star. And he picked it up a

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00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: little bit. And because again time is money and we're

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00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: a regional sports network, you can't just throw the interview away.

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00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: We ran it. But it was not our proudest moment,

859
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: was not his proudest moment. That was the toughest one

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00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: I see of all the interviews we ever did, I'd

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00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: say that that was the only bad one that I'd

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00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 1: say I could and maybe I blame myself because I

863
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: see him on The Tonight Show or on Kimmel and Colbert,

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00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: and he's a great guest. But maybe he's a great

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00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: guest in eight minute segments, but for an hour he

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00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: wasn't ready to play. That wrapped it up for the week.

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Speaker 1: We're heading into another big week here at The Volume.

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Speaker 1: Make sure to subscribe and follow us at The Volume

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00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 1: Sports on Twitter and Instagram. The Volume