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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three h four of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get into our conversation

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. If you're all caught

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Speaker 1: up on Hulu's new hit Unprisoned, then this is the

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Speaker 1: episode for you. Starring Carrie Washington as Page Alexander and

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Speaker 1: Delroy Lindo as her father Edwin. Unprisoned is a funny

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Speaker 1: and realistic look at what happens when Edwin is released

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Speaker 1: from prison and moves in with Paige and her son Finn.

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Speaker 1: We haven't had one of these in a while, but

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Speaker 1: Page's character was the perfect one for another on the

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Speaker 1: collech episode Joining Me Today to chat about what might

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Speaker 1: happen if Paige came into her office for therapy. Is

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Speaker 1: doctor Lex Brown James. If you've missed Doctor Lex here

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Speaker 1: on the podcast before. She's an Amazon best selling author

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Speaker 1: of These Are My Eyes, This Is My Nose, This

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Speaker 1: is My Vulva, These Are My Toes, and does a

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Speaker 1: licensed marriage and family therapy an ASEX certified sexuality educator

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Speaker 1: and supervisor. Doctor Lex and I chatted about some of

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Speaker 1: the issues she'd explore with Page in therapy, how attachment

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Speaker 1: styles impact our relationships, what reparenting and inner child work

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Speaker 1: looks like in therapy, and how Page's career as a

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Speaker 1: therapist might impact how she showed up as a client.

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Speaker 1: This episode does include spoilers, so if you haven't watched,

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Speaker 1: please hit pause until you've had a chance to finish

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Speaker 1: the episodes. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,

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Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: TBG in session or join us over in the Sister

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Speaker 1: Circle To talk more in depth about the episode. You

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Speaker 1: can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Thanks so much for joining me again today,

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Speaker 1: doctor Lynn.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me here.

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Speaker 1: Always a pleasure. So we both have finished watching for

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Speaker 1: season ze Unprisoned on Hulu. We're not sure if we're

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Speaker 1: getting the season two, but keeping our fingers crossed. So,

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Speaker 1: doctor Lex, I want to first hear from you, what

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Speaker 1: was your overall impression of the show.

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Speaker 2: I was going in with high hopes. Sorry. I love

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Speaker 2: all of the actors that are in the show, and

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Speaker 2: then we rarely get to see a marriage and family

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Speaker 2: therapist on camera. It's usually a social worker or a

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Speaker 2: clinician or a psychologist. So I was just hoping that

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Speaker 2: they did this justice, but they're like, please just justashus,

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Speaker 2: especially as myself being a licensed marriage and family therapist,

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Speaker 2: and overall, I thought it was so beautifully done in

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Speaker 2: therapy regard in regards to some of the healing that

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Speaker 2: took place in all of the systematic parts of family

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Speaker 2: that we saw. That is the Beesnes of family therapy

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Speaker 2: right there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely some heavy hitters connected to this project, right. So,

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Speaker 1: Yvette Lee Bowser is an executive producer on the show.

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Speaker 1: We know Kerry Washington was also an EP as well

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Speaker 1: as the lead actress, and Terry Lewis and Jimmy jam

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Speaker 1: did the music, which was beautiful. So you could clearly

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Speaker 1: hear that there was a lot of care put into

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Speaker 1: the music in the soundtrack. So I also really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't quite sure what I was getting into, but again,

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Speaker 1: like you really really appreciated what I saw on camera.

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Speaker 1: So we have not had an on the Couch episode

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Speaker 1: in a while, and so I would love for us

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Speaker 1: to kind of frame our conversation with the idea that

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Speaker 1: Page perhaps comes to you for therapy. Right. So, Pages,

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Speaker 1: the character played by Kerrie Washington, we see lots of

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Speaker 1: different great conversations I think come up related to her

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Speaker 1: father who has been incarcerated and is recently released and

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Speaker 1: comes to stay with her. And they don't quite say

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Speaker 1: how old her son is. I feel like he's like

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Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen ish Finn. So he stays with them, and

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Speaker 1: then you know all the drama that ensues after that. So,

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Speaker 1: if Paige came to you as a client, doctor, Lex,

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Speaker 1: where do you think you might start with her?

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Speaker 2: Oh my my gosh. So if Paige came to me

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Speaker 2: as a client, first of all, Paige would tell me

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Speaker 2: where she wanted to start because she would have already

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Speaker 2: had everything figured out and would have tried to just

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Speaker 2: use me as a sounding board, right as somebody who

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Speaker 2: could like echo back or mirror back. And for folks

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Speaker 2: who don't know therapists who see other therapists, sometimes there's

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Speaker 2: this expectation that you already have all of the knowledge

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Speaker 2: and so you can work these things out yourselves. That's

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Speaker 2: not true. You do need somebody to walk with you.

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Speaker 2: So with Paige, I'd start pretty much where all family

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Speaker 2: therapists start with. In the genogram, I want to map

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Speaker 2: out her family. I want to look at any diagnosis

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Speaker 2: that she thinks other family members should have. We see

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Speaker 2: that she has some struggles with both her parental units

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Speaker 2: we don't really learn much about, like grandparents. And then

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about her son and her relationship

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Speaker 2: with her son and what that looks like for her.

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Speaker 2: And then all of these romantic partnerships and the fact

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Speaker 2: that she's a part of an affair as well, and

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Speaker 2: how those are affecting all of the systems that she

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Speaker 2: is really valuating the most.

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Speaker 1: I love that doctor lex and I want to stay

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Speaker 1: with this idea of a therapist in therapy for a second,

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Speaker 1: because I do think we see that. So that is

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Speaker 1: the one thing I think that really could have taken

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Speaker 1: this show to the next level for me was to

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Speaker 1: see her in therapy or maybe even supervision, right, because

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Speaker 1: it is very clear that she has all this self awareness,

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Speaker 1: Like in addition to seeing clients in a practice, it

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Speaker 1: looks like she also does a lot on social media.

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Speaker 1: So she will do these what looks to be like

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Speaker 1: an ig live or a TikTok live right, sharing information

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Speaker 1: about stuff like attachment theory, and you know, all of

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and you can also see the stuff going

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Speaker 1: on in her personal life does impact what's happening with

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Speaker 1: our clients, Like our clients will often say something that

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Speaker 1: it feels like strikes a chord with something going on

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Speaker 1: in her personal life. And so can you say a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about therapists in therapy some of the

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Speaker 1: barriers that I think sometimes come up. You already talks

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Speaker 1: about sometimes feeling like therapists will just want a sounding board.

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Speaker 1: But what else do you see or notice when therapists

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Speaker 1: are actually in therapy for themselves.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely here were her friends or cohort maids. Right, So

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Speaker 2: as therapists, we have friends that are also therapists, We

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Speaker 2: have other people, we have supervisors. When we're like, ooh,

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Speaker 2: this case is hard, or my own stuff is being

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Speaker 2: triggered ethically, we are bound to figure that stuff out

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Speaker 2: so we don't do harm to our clients. And that

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Speaker 2: part of her life just wasn't filmed here. We didn't

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Speaker 2: see her going to her friends and her colleagues with

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Speaker 2: the stuff that was a mess for her, especially when

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Speaker 2: she turned over that brilliant ted talk like page got

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Speaker 2: hit with waves of stuff that was not easy. And

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Speaker 2: so therapists and therapy, I always say that if I'm

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Speaker 2: going to therapy, you have to be a better therapist

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Speaker 2: than me, because I need to know that I'm not

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Speaker 2: just gonna walk all over you. I'm not gonna know

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Speaker 2: the next intervention that you're gonna use, because if that

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Speaker 2: was the case, maybe I could apply it. I need

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Speaker 2: somebody to see my blind sides. And we didn't see

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Speaker 2: a lot of that with Paige when she definitely had

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Speaker 2: some blind spots and they got poked. They got poked

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Speaker 2: quite a bit throughout all of the season.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so if we're getting started with your Gina Graham,

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Speaker 1: I think the place that it feels most natural and

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Speaker 1: most impactful. The start is in the relationship with her father,

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Speaker 1: because that is the center of this show. So again,

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Speaker 1: her father, it seems, has had bouts of being incarcerated.

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Speaker 1: So it looks like I think the latest stint was

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Speaker 1: like sixteen or seventeen years he had been incarcerated. So

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Speaker 1: what kinds of things would you want to be kind

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Speaker 1: of looking at or questioning her or helping her to

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Speaker 1: process related to her relationship with her now?

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Speaker 2: So I would look at the relationship actually between her

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Speaker 2: parents first, because we got that one like really odd

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Speaker 2: throwaway about her mom at that party and the level

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Speaker 2: of abandonment from there. And then we also had a

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Speaker 2: father who also she felt like was abandoning her by

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Speaker 2: going back and forth to prison. And so in looking

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Speaker 2: at that relationship, I would wonder, what has made you

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Speaker 2: feel secure? What has made you want this relationship because

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Speaker 2: we see Dad keeps coming back and trying to be

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Speaker 2: there and wanting to do things differently. And if anybody

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Speaker 2: actually has a more secure attachment out of anybody, I

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Speaker 2: think it was Dad. I think Edwin did have like

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Speaker 2: I'm wanted, I am valuable, I want to be connected,

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Speaker 2: I'm not anxious about it. I just need to be consistent,

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Speaker 2: whereas she's like, I'm really nervous about you being here.

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Speaker 2: I'm really nervous that you're going to go away again.

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Speaker 2: I can't trust that you're going to be here. And

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Speaker 2: we see that trickle out through both with Finn and

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Speaker 2: her relationship with her son, who has now become more dismissive,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, all right, well, if we're attached, if

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Speaker 2: we're not, I'm cool either way, because I don't know.

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Speaker 2: My mom is so anxious about being close. And then

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Speaker 2: also with her romantic relationships, she's never sure if she's

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Speaker 2: ever going to be abandoned. So I would have started

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Speaker 2: there when she first started feeling that abandonment, specifically from

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Speaker 2: her father, because I think her mother automatically abandoned her

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Speaker 2: very early on, and this was the one person who

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Speaker 2: was trying to grasp on too until she got with

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Speaker 2: her foster mom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, doctor Lexon. I wonder why we didn't

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Speaker 1: hear more about the birth mom. And I know you

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Speaker 1: know that was not designed to be like the center

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Speaker 1: of the show, but it did feel very like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we just randomly hear, like why birth mom is not

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Speaker 1: in her life, but there's no more around it. So

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Speaker 1: staying with this idea of the mother figures or the

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Speaker 1: women who have kind of had a part in raising her,

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Speaker 1: we hear very early on Page talk about being left

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Speaker 1: with Nadine, who it sounds like was Edwin's like long

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Speaker 1: term on and off again girlfriend who helped to raise

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Speaker 1: Page for much of her life. But then also missus Nelson,

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Speaker 1: who is her foster mom, who she talks about really

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Speaker 1: loving and feeling very supported by. But we clearly see

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Speaker 1: there is a very like tense, tenuous relationship with Nadine.

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Speaker 1: And even though she describes a loving relationship with the

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Speaker 1: foster mom, she hasn't talked to her in some time.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know that we ever got any class

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Speaker 1: already around like why she hadn't talked with her? What

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Speaker 1: did you make of that in the relationship with those

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Speaker 1: women in her life?

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, So Nadine seemed very much about self

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Speaker 2: and then I'm taking care of this other child, right.

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Speaker 2: I do think she loved Page through and through, and

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Speaker 2: I think also Nadine had a really hard time. The

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Speaker 2: man she loved is gone. She's left with a kid

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Speaker 2: that she's trying to raise and Nadine, I don't know

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Speaker 2: anybody else didn't seem like the Yes, I wake up

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Speaker 2: today and I want to be a mom type. She's like,

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Speaker 2: I want to live my life and I have this

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Speaker 2: kid who I will have living my life with me,

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Speaker 2: versus centering her life around that child, which isn't right

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Speaker 2: or wrong, it's just not I don't think what Page needed.

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Speaker 2: Paige was looking for a more maternal somebody who was

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Speaker 2: going to be at home making chicken soup and dumplings,

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Speaker 2: somebody who was going to be a bit softer. So

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Speaker 2: she wanted a bit of a softer landing place, which

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Speaker 2: she got with missus Nelson. But I was also surprised

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Speaker 2: because missus Nelson was also very critical, right, and I

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Speaker 2: think that added to her anxiety. There was expectations, and

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Speaker 2: because Page felt like somebody who was less than because

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Speaker 2: she was abandoned so much, or because she became from

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Speaker 2: Nadine who didn't have traditional values, then she's like, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: what do I do? I need to make sure that

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Speaker 2: I'm good enough, and that is a rhetoric that has

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Speaker 2: lived throughout the narrative of her life. I need to

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Speaker 2: be good enough, how do I prove that I'm good enough?

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Speaker 2: And I think it all started to stem from who

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Speaker 2: really wants me?

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Speaker 1: Very good points there, Doctor Leggs. Can you say more

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Speaker 1: about where you saw that not good enough rhetoric pop

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Speaker 1: up for her throughout the show?

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Speaker 2: Oh where do we gain? Right? So in the beginning

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Speaker 2: we saw that when she was talking to her followers

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Speaker 2: and she's really like, beholden to this social media following

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Speaker 2: and she just wants to show up for them and

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Speaker 2: be good enough for them and have all the right

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Speaker 2: things to say. We see it with her son and

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Speaker 2: she's like, oh, how do I keep engaging with you?

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Speaker 2: And I think a lot of parents of teenagers feel

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Speaker 2: that way. They're like, what did I do wrong all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, or how come I'm not good enough

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Speaker 2: for you now? When that kid is really developing into

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Speaker 2: their own sense of self outside of family at that time,

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Speaker 2: and so that rejection feels personal. We see with her

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Speaker 2: lover who is married to somebody else and not recognizing

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Speaker 2: that she's really the side chick and you're the side chick.

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Speaker 2: What demands are you making of this person? And being

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Speaker 2: strung along for quite a while and trying to be

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Speaker 2: okay with it. So we see her trying to be

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Speaker 2: good enough in so many realms, and then she's like,

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Speaker 2: am I good enough for my dad? Is my dad

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Speaker 2: actually going to be proud of me? Am I good

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Speaker 2: enough for him to stay out of jail? Right? And

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Speaker 2: she's trying to prove herself, like, look at all of

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Speaker 2: the things I can do. When they bought the house

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Speaker 2: and she kept getting turned down for houses and she

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Speaker 2: finally got one, it's like, look what I can do

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Speaker 2: for us. I can do it all. See, I'm good enough.

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Speaker 2: And so that constant trying to prove herself in every way,

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Speaker 2: shape and form. I think even the sex scene, Oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh with the new boo and she's like she

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Speaker 2: and him joined the sex thing, like is this good?

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Speaker 2: You're good, We're having a good time. This is great, right,

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, not anymore. So it's a sex therapist.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, there's so much there, all of it's

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Speaker 2: pouring out. But it was consistent throughout the show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, one of the other things we

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Speaker 1: have not talked about, doctor Lex but we definitely have

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Speaker 1: to was the beautiful way I think that they weaved

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Speaker 1: in this inner child kind of monologue. First of all,

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Speaker 1: the actors are adorable, Like the young people actors were

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Speaker 1: so so cute and so so good. But I really

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Speaker 1: appreciated like this idea that you know, like we're always

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Speaker 1: kind of trying to take care of the little person

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Speaker 1: we once were, and we don't always see it illustrated

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Speaker 1: in the way that I think we did hear. So

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Speaker 1: when you said that about like the good enough peace

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Speaker 1: and like am I good enough for my dad to stay?

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Speaker 1: I really resonated with this idea that the little page,

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Speaker 1: how that was really how she was feeling, and how

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Speaker 1: children often don't have language or the understandings that kind

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Speaker 1: of it makes sense of like why is dad leaving again? Right?

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Speaker 1: And they often turned that on themselves. What else would

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Speaker 1: you say about the way we saw this kind of

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Speaker 1: inner child dialogue really kind of weave throughout the story.

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Speaker 2: I wept at this inner child dialogue. And I think

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Speaker 2: it was something specifically just about blackness, right when I

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Speaker 2: think of other therapy folks, and therapy was basically founded

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Speaker 2: by white people for white people, right, And all of

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Speaker 2: the founders except for like Mnuchen are white, so and

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Speaker 2: I think Munuchin was like white presenting that being said,

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Speaker 2: we would be talking about inner child or speaking to

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Speaker 2: ancestors and people would think we were schizophrenic. And here

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Speaker 2: we see a purposeful use of that inner child. And

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Speaker 2: so I think the biggest moment was when Paige found

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Speaker 2: baby Edwin under the bed and it represented a little

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Speaker 2: black boy and you know, being from Georgia, being a

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Speaker 2: little black girl who also used to live in Texas.

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Speaker 2: And I am a twin and my twin is a

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Speaker 2: darker skinned black boy who was not always safe. And

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Speaker 2: when we learn more about that story and we understand

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Speaker 2: why he's under the bed because he's not safe, and

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Speaker 2: the fact that she's like, I see you and I

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Speaker 2: will help keep you safe, I get goosebubs now talking

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Speaker 2: about it. So yes, I think we're all walking around

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Speaker 2: with these little people that have been hurt. And you know,

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Speaker 2: the adage goes, you get stuck at the age that

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Speaker 2: you got hurt the most dead, and we see that

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Speaker 2: in adults. We see people acting out like ooh, is

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Speaker 2: this mature forty two year old doctor Joy right now?

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Speaker 2: Or is this eight year old doctor Joy right? Is

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Speaker 2: this eight year old lex I got hurt? And we

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Speaker 2: see that so that healing that happened in those check ins,

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Speaker 2: those internal check ins, like hold on some piece of me,

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Speaker 2: and we actually call it like a wounded child in

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Speaker 2: a couple of therapy modalities, when we're saying, hey, your

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Speaker 2: introjections are acting up. Your wounded children are acting up,

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Speaker 2: and everybody else comes around them to try and protect them.

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Speaker 2: Our managers come around to try and protect them. Our

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Speaker 2: extreme behaviors, which we call firefighters, come to try and

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Speaker 2: help protect them too, because these wounded little people are

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Speaker 2: acting up. And so to see that represent it so

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Speaker 2: poignantly in film, I thought it was Chef's kiss perfection.

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Speaker 2: Because everybody has that piece of themselves that still is

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Speaker 2: wounded and needs to be tended to.

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Speaker 1: So I would imagine that somebody like Paige would be

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Speaker 1: right for doing some of this wounded child work in therapy.

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Speaker 1: Can you say more about what that looks like like,

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Speaker 1: how do you help a client identify this part of themselves?

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Speaker 1: And what would that look like? Maybe with Page?

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so with Page, I'd want to think

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Speaker 2: about some of the core pieces that people are born with.

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Speaker 2: People are born compassionate and caring and creative and chrismatic

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Speaker 2: and life stumps that out of us. If you ask

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Speaker 2: seventeen adults right now to draw you a picture of

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Speaker 2: a horse, sixteen of them are gonna be like, well,

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Speaker 2: I can't draw very well, and they're gonna apologize for it.

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Speaker 2: If you ask seventeen kindergarteners to draw you a picture

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Speaker 2: of a horse, they're gonna draw you a picture of

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Speaker 2: a horse. Okay, it's gonna look like a dog, cat

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Speaker 2: and rabit in between. But they won't drop you a

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Speaker 2: picture and his horse, right, And so something gets lost

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Speaker 2: along the way. And I'd want to explore that with

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Speaker 2: Paige if when she started dropping this confidence in herself,

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Speaker 2: when she stopped believing in her creativity, and wonder how

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Speaker 2: does she get that back? And so I think the

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Speaker 2: pandemic taught us we start to repairent ourselves in different ways.

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Speaker 2: We've seen a return to nostalgia. So what do you

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Speaker 2: do to heal your inner child? Well, like I got

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Speaker 2: to go swing on the swings in the playground because

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Speaker 2: my neighborhood was never safe enough to do that. We

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Speaker 2: ain't even have swings, It was just changed because people

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Speaker 2: kept sealing them. Right. Or I enrolled in an art class,

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Speaker 2: or I finally got to do a meetup dot com

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Speaker 2: something or other. And yeah, I really thought this was

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Speaker 2: cool as a kid, and I still find it kind

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Speaker 2: of cool. And so we give them permission to start

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Speaker 2: to explore the things that they had to put down

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Speaker 2: or things that were forced from them. And so at Paige,

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Speaker 2: I'd want to do that with her, especially when she

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Speaker 2: was talking about her house and building what her house

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Speaker 2: looked like. I liked the paneling, and I liked this

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Speaker 2: and wait, but I like this too. So something that

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Speaker 2: would challenge her not to be in control but to

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Speaker 2: be able to just enjoy the experience of something. I'd

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Speaker 2: want her to get involved in to gauge her anxiety

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Speaker 2: through it, and so she could be more comfortable by

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Speaker 2: not being in control.

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Speaker 1: Can you say more about reparenting, doctor lex I feel

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Speaker 1: like that is one of those terms that feels like

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Speaker 1: has entered the popular lexicon now, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: that people always know what that means. What does that

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Speaker 1: look like to reparent ourselves?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I do think it's one of those terms,

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Speaker 2: right that's just entered our lexicon. But that being said,

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Speaker 2: play on my name, right, reparenting this is idea that

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Speaker 2: there were gaps in your parenting. Our parents did the

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Speaker 2: best that they could what they had. And I think

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Speaker 2: it was Tdjakes who said your parent was given sixty,

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Speaker 2: but you needed eighty. But all your parent could give

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Speaker 2: was sixty. They were giving you all that they had

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Speaker 2: and it still might not have been enough. And so

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Speaker 2: there are gaps in how we were raised. There are

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Speaker 2: gaps and things that we under nderstood, and trying to

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Speaker 2: reframe how we grew up is part of reparenting yourself.

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Speaker 2: It's part of healing that in her childhood was hurt,

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Speaker 2: who felt abandoned or not good enough or made to

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Speaker 2: be too much. As that Facebook fad went around for

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Speaker 2: all the people who had talked too much on their

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Speaker 2: report cards. Right, maybe that's your gift now, right if

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Speaker 2: doctor Joy had talked too much and now doctor Joy

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Speaker 2: has an award winning podcast. So that's part of reparenting.

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Speaker 2: It's healing and knowing that these are gifts and not deficits,

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Speaker 2: and realizing how you can use those gifts. If you

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Speaker 2: want to.

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Speaker 1: More from my conversation with doctor Lex after the break,

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Speaker 1: you really called out in the beginning, like as a

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Speaker 1: part of your genogram work with Page, you would want

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Speaker 1: to look at like her relationships with romantic partners and

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Speaker 1: how she has found herself as a mistress, though I

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Speaker 1: don't know that, like you said, she didn't identify that way,

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Speaker 1: like I don't think she put that together. So talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about like what we saw in terms

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Speaker 1: of her relationships and what kinds of questions came up

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Speaker 1: for you and what you would want to explore with

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Speaker 1: page related to her relationships.

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Speaker 2: I screamed at the screen. I was screaming. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: you don't see this, your daddy, you don't see this right,

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Speaker 2: because Nadine was never wiped up that we know about,

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Speaker 2: but Nadine has been opened for sex. Nadine is holding

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Speaker 2: and when down, Nadine got Edwin's fur coat from when food.

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Speaker 2: That's for length, right, So I'm like, uh, are we

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Speaker 2: not seeing the stability that she's so craving she's still

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Speaker 2: not getting romantically. There's sex, and we know that it

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Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily the greatest of sex because she had sex

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Speaker 2: with them later on and was like, oh yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm good. So it wasn't even the pen that could

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Speaker 2: get her back in despite the fact this man is

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Speaker 2: out here making love to you and she's just like, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm good. So we know that that wasn't what I

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Speaker 2: was keeping. But it's the same emotional pull and push

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Speaker 2: away of like do you want me? Okay, you're showing

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Speaker 2: that you want me. Okay, I can wait. Do you

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Speaker 2: want me again? And so she's doing the same thing

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Speaker 2: that she did with her dad. If you really want me,

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Speaker 2: you'll stay out of jail. If you really want me,

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Speaker 2: you'll be here. Okay, I'll wait for you. Okay, I

434
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: waited for you. You're showing me that you want me. And

435
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 2: she did the same thing romantically. And I'm not saying

436
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 2: it's not super Freudian. We're not going like everybody's gonna

437
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 2: date their father and have Oedipus complex and electrocomplex. So

438
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 2: what we're talking about is just the fact that those

439
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 2: same systems and patterns that she saw are the same

440
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 2: patterns that she's repeating. Because she didn't really know too

441
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 2: much different, we didn't hear a lot about their relationships,

442
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 2: so we don't really know what she saw in that relationship,

443
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 2: but we do know that what she saw with her

444
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 2: dad was this yello being back and forth, and that's

445
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 2: exactly what her lover was doing with her because when

446
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 2: she got with Mal, who was steady, that felt threatening,

447
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 2: that felt too much, And even though that was quote

448
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 2: unquote which she was supposed to want, it wasn't enough

449
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 2: for her at that moment because as she started to heal,

450
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 2: she realized that she wasn't ready for that either.

451
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that this goes back to earlier

452
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 1: conversation around like how she was so self aware as

453
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 1: a therapist but didn't always connect to how things were

454
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: playing out in her own life. Right. So the show

455
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: opens up with her doing this Instagram live about repetition compulsion, right,

456
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: which means we kind of constantly find ourselves in the

457
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: same pattern, trying to work through, typically something that didn't

458
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: work out as a child. And so in her instance,

459
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: it is this relationship with her father. But we never

460
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: saw any insight into her connecting her relationship with Bill,

461
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: I believe, the guy who was married. We never see

462
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: her connect to the fact that her relationship with Bill

463
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways mirrors the relationship that Nadine

464
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: had with and Win. So I do want to stay

465
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: here about Mal because I instantly knew that they were

466
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: going to try to put them together, Like even from

467
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: the first scene you can tell that there's a chemistry

468
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: between them on screen, and so you know he does,

469
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 1: I think in a lot of ways on paper, look

470
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: like somebody who would be really stable and who could

471
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: help her develop maybe more secure attachment. But we do

472
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 1: see that like this is not really what he's into. Now,

473
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: what do you think happened here? Was it the kind

474
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: of thing where it is like when you're so used

475
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: to chaos, like steadiness feels uncomfortable or do you think

476
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: there was something else happening in the relationship with her

477
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: and mal oh?

478
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 2: So Ma is securely attached, which means Ma wants connection

479
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: and doesn't have a lot of anxiety about being connected

480
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: or being left. So it's idea big word. Differentiation is

481
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: what we use, right, So if you want to look

482
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 2: it up, it's Bowen Bown differentiation. The fun thing about

483
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: differentiation is you attract somebody that is similarly at your level.

484
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 2: So we already know Ma has some poor boundaries because

485
00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 2: mal Is Dayton is Parole's daughter, Like, no, Joan and

486
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: I can never date one of our client's daughters or

487
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: your kids, like that's not appropriate for us, right, not

488
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: appropriate for him either. But what we see with Paige

489
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 2: is that she's doing a healing journey of herself, and

490
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,959
Speaker 2: so she's coming from that anxious attachment with Bill, but

491
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 2: she's not on Mall's level yet. She hasn't healed enough

492
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: for relinquishing her anxiety around connection because she has somebody

493
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: saying I want you, I want to be here for you,

494
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 2: and by all intents and purposes, that's what she's supposed

495
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 2: to want, right, That's what we're all told we're supposed

496
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 2: to want, especially as black women. You're supposed to want

497
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 2: a good black man with a good job who wants

498
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 2: you bick and for her. Right, then that's not what

499
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: she needed, and she's finally realizing that. And I think

500
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: that's where we came to the end is and the

501
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: culmination of all of these men in her life, whether

502
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: it's Finn, her father, Bill, is that she can be

503
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: enough on her own, and so that rejection of Mall

504
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: had to happen in order for her to realize, like, wait,

505
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 2: I am good atough, just on my own two feet.

506
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, you know, and he had a

507
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: good government job, so you know, you're definitely not supposed

508
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: to let anybody go who had a nice, secure job.

509
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier that we didn't really see her friends,

510
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: but we do see STI, and I wasn't all the

511
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: way sure of who Estie was, so like, it sounds

512
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: like she was her realtor maybe slash lawyer, but maybe

513
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: also foster sister and best friend. Is that your understanding

514
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: of who she was?

515
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I got foster sister and my best friend

516
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: growing up, who like she kind of got ripped from

517
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 2: and had to really work to establish that relationship.

518
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: Got it okay? So I think something else that likely

519
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: Page would need to work on is the development of

520
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: like connection with friends, because at the same party we

521
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: see that she's hosting and I don't even know how

522
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: close she was to this like colleague down the hall,

523
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: but she ends up hosting the gender reveal party, right,

524
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: and at this party we see, you know, people ask like, oh,

525
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: how did you meet and then she's put in this

526
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: weird predicament of having to say, like, okay, who he is,

527
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: which then reveals like all this stuff about her father.

528
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: But it does feel like there's difficulty with boundaries around

529
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: like what do you share with people? And like in

530
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: what ways is she working to connect with other people?

531
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: What kinds of things would you work with her on

532
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: around like how do you meet new people in like

533
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: what parts of your story are okay to share? And

534
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: when she.

535
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 2: Ain't want to throw our party, we know she ain't

536
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: want to throw, Like that woman was looking at her

537
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: like can you help me? She got guilted into trying

538
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 2: to help. That's what that was. And that was her work, colleague, right,

539
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: because she owns her own practice, and again, as we know,

540
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: on your own practice can be kind of lonely. But

541
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: she seems to print office space in a place with

542
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 2: other therapists. So that being said, I think that the

543
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: oversharing and boundaries, I would probably I want to slow

544
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: page down in general, just slow down, right, And instead

545
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: of her treating everything like an audition where people accept

546
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: and like her, I'd like to put the power back

547
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: to her. I'm like, you're choosing people to be in

548
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 2: your life. I think she's had a haphazard kind of

549
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 2: people dropping in or her being dropped on people and

550
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 2: her having to try and attach to those people rather

551
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: than her ever having the ability to choose. You get

552
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 2: to choose who's in your life. And I think people

553
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: mix up boundaries boundaries. Aren't you controlling somebody else's behavior.

554
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: Boundaries are what you're going to do when somebody else's

555
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: behavior persists. And that's where I think she gets a

556
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: little bit misconstrued and turn around, because she wants to

557
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: be wanted, and when she wants to be wanted, she

558
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: wants to be the brightest and the best and the

559
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: smartest and the prettiest and all of those things all

560
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: wrapped in one, because that's what we're told people want,

561
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: and yet she suffers for it. She suffers with anxiety,

562
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: She suffers thinking that are these real relationships? Are these

563
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: relationships of sustenance? Because I don't see a lot where

564
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: she gets a lot back from other people. Right. There

565
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: is her foster sister, there is her dad, there's Finn somewhat,

566
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: but Finn gets put in this kind of parental role

567
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: or friend role more than child role. So she has

568
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: to learn one, you're actually in control here, you get

569
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: to choose who's in your life. And then two, how

570
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: is it being reciprocated? Are you the only one doing

571
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: for people? Are also people doing for you? Because that's

572
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: a real quick way to get used up when there's

573
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: no reciprocity with you giving out all of your caregiving knowledge, charisma,

574
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: and not getting anything back.

575
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: I love that you started with slowing her down, because

576
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: as I'm thinking back about watching the show, I realized

577
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: like it felt very hurried, right, Like, not in a

578
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: way that I feel like the pacing was off, but

579
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: like she felt like she was just going, like there

580
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: was always some fire I think to put out, And

581
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: so I think the slowing down would really allow her

582
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: to be more connected to the effect part, like the

583
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,959
Speaker 1: emotion feeling piece, which I think it's also something that

584
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: happens when therapists go to therapy, is that there's like

585
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: this intellectualization of things and like you know, like, oh,

586
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: this is how I'm thinking in like a very cognitive

587
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: kind of space as opposed to like how does this

588
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: feel like? Where do I feel this anxiety kind of

589
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: in my body? So I think a slowing down of

590
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: her really would be helpful. But I'm also aware as

591
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: we're talking that it feels like there's a lot for

592
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: her to kind of work through, right Like the relationship

593
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 1: that she's had with dad and Mom being gone, I

594
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: feel like has left her very unanchored, ungrounded, and that

595
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: there are a lot of skills that you like have

596
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: difficulty developing when that parental foundation is not really firm.

597
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: But I think we both work from a strengths perspective

598
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: writ and would not want her coming in feeling like

599
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: there's nothing that I do well right, So, in what

600
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: kinds of ways would you also work to kind of

601
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: highlight the strengths that we saw her page so that

602
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,959
Speaker 1: she would have enough of a foundation to do some

603
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: of this work that we know would need to.

604
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely and I'll tell you that I identified most with

605
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: the Ted talk moment, So that part where she's about

606
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,479
Speaker 2: to go do this really big thing and gets just

607
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: catastrophic news that has rocked her world, and she goes

608
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: out and she has this talk prepared and my favorite party,

609
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: she just sits on the stool. She sits on the

610
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: stool and she's like, you know what, let me be completely,

611
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: one hundred percent honest and talk to you about this.

612
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: I was so proud in that moment because she wasn't performing,

613
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: she wasn't just giving tidbits. It was a real processing.

614
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: And so with her strengths, I think that's one of

615
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: her strengths that she cannot only take in information, but

616
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: she can process it and make it digestible so other

617
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: folks can understand it. And we all know that everybody

618
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: doesn't go to therapy. Some people treat social media as therapy.

619
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: Some people don't have access, some people are scared, and

620
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: she's able to really give people a platform of understanding.

621
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: I also think she is so caring, right So, even

622
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: when her and her son are disagreement, she's like, wait, no,

623
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: I see you, and she can acknowledge her faults there,

624
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: and same with her father and she's like, hey, I

625
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: messed up here. Here goes this food that I never

626
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: ever ever eat and will touch. But I wanted to

627
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: make it for you to let you know that you're special.

628
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: And I think she's really good at that of letting

629
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: people know that they're actually special to her, despite the

630
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: fact that she doesn't really always feel that special to others.

631
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: Thank you for that, doctor Leggs. So let's talk a

632
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: little bit more about how you might want to support

633
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: her in her relationship with Finn, with her child. What

634
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: kinds of things do you think would be important to

635
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: talk with her about there?

636
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 2: So Finn is hard right one, because we don't ever

637
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: see Finn's father figure. We don't know what that relationship

638
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: is like, we know, Finn seems to be somewhat of

639
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: an introvert. I call myself the coolest nerd you'll ever meet,

640
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 2: And so Finn also seems to be on that kind

641
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: of like anime nerdy category with the card game that

642
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: he plays and purposely loses right when he's playing with

643
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: somebody else. So there's some confidence building the fact that

644
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: Finn isn't necessarily driving around the city yet and has

645
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: some trepidations and fears, and so looking at that relationship,

646
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: I would want to look at that control right because

647
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: her anxious attachment has made him want to detach. We

648
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: don't see him with a whole lot of friends. Edwin's like,

649
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: what's going on? Let me help out here, Son, like

650
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: this is cool, and he starts to build a friendship

651
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: with his grandfather, but his mom tends to be just

652
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: over controlling the factory. He can come home and skip

653
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 2: school and she's kind of unbeknownst to it. But I'm

654
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: sure he's getting good grades. I'm sure he's not really

655
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: struggling because he's really smart, and I don't see her

656
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: facilitating enough of that. Here's how you can be independent

657
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: in the ways that I think will suit you over life.

658
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: It's more about, hey, you're still my favorite son, I'm

659
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: still your favorite mom, right okay? And I love you

660
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: so much and you love me so much, And so

661
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: there's a level of childishness in their relationship. I think

662
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: Finn is starting to grow out of. I need some

663
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: more support in like going towards adulthood.

664
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: More from my conversation with doctor Lex after the break,

665
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 1: I forgot to mention this doctor Lex, but that moment

666
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 1: with her ted talk felt like a very black girl

667
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: moment of being put in this huge professional opportunity right

668
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: in which I think a lot of us find ourselves

669
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: and then like you getting this bad news and then

670
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: having to struggle between like Okay, how do I kind

671
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 1: of put my cape on and like still go show

672
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: up and do this thing, but her instead choosing to

673
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: just be very authentic in that moment and say like, Okay,

674
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: I'm struggling here and let me just be real with you.

675
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: And I feel like if it had not been that bad,

676
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: she never would have made that choice, right, Like, if

677
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: she had more time to kind of prepare, Like I

678
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: think we know what she would have done, which is

679
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: typically what we do is write you know, like, let

680
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: me just grin and buried for this next twenty five

681
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: minutes and then I can deal with the fire.

682
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,959
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, that news rocked her to her core because

683
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: it's the thing she was most afraid of. Her dad

684
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: is now abandoning her again and she don't know the details,

685
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 2: and that's why she wanted to punish him for it too.

686
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: She was like, I'm not going to get him. He

687
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: can sit and right. Nope. Right. And meanwhile the son

688
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 2: is like, I need help. And again, she raised him,

689
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: so he's this great, independent, fierce and also supremely ethical.

690
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: He's like, oh, this is right, this is wrong. Let's

691
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 2: talk about it. Let's figure it out. What my mom

692
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: is doing is wrong, and that's raising a strong kid

693
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: with her own sense of self. But yes, she was like, oh,

694
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: I'm flailing right now, and let me tell you all

695
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: that I'm flailing and letting you see that I have

696
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: flaws and I have hardships, and here's how I might

697
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 2: be able to walk through them. But that was her

698
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 2: worst fear come true because now her dad has left

699
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 2: her again.

700
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: Right, so I do want to go back to We

701
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about the inner child dialogue that

702
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: we saw, which I really appreciated them, including like this

703
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: kind of childhood moment for Edwin because before he had

704
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: gone back to his hometown, we had not known a

705
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: lot about what was his backstory and like how did

706
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: he become the person that he was? And I think

707
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: that even though it was like a small thread, I

708
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: do think that there is an interesting conversation and an

709
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: important one to be had around racism and how it

710
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: impacts our mental health. The racism that happens and the

711
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: way our mental health has impacted then intersects with the

712
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: justice system or in justice system in a lot of ways, right,

713
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: And so you know, I think that we can probably

714
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: draw a line from this early childhood experience of a

715
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: racist experience with his incarceration. Is there more that you

716
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: wanted to say about that or kinds of things that

717
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: you would maybe help page kind of process related to

718
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: her dad's background and how that led to who he became.

719
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: Absolutely so one. I'm gonna go ahead and own it.

720
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: I was so angry at Paige for not going full

721
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: caring on that man in the records department. I said,

722
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: girlf you won't go use all the degrees and big

723
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: words on these country people like, where's all of that?

724
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 2: I need all of that in your throat to come

725
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: out right and protect your daddy. But also shed a

726
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: tear because seeing Edwin's so frustrated at trying to do

727
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 2: right just represented millions of black folks, millions of poor folks,

728
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 2: millions of uneducated folks across the country right because as

729
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 2: the US we have one of the highest incarceration rates

730
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: in the entire world, and saying like, hey, I just

731
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 2: need to get this thing so I can get a license,

732
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 2: and now you're telling me I can't because all of

733
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: these laws that are put in place and these systems

734
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: prevent help, which is so backwards. So I did shed

735
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 2: a tear. And also like I have family members who

736
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: have been incarcerated, and trying to see them being able

737
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: to put their lives back together again with all of

738
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: these constraints. It's no wonder why it feels almost impossible,

739
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: because it is almost impossible, especially in the Deep South,

740
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 2: especially with people who were still in control and power.

741
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 2: And I felt for Finn when the white man talked

742
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: about them being moon crickets. Now, look, I have literally

743
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: been chased by the KKK. I have never been called

744
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: a moon cricket. Okay, so that's the old old phrase

745
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: that Edwin talked about, and Finn's like what And even

746
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 2: when we see Finn with an identity crisis, like he

747
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: thinks I'm white, hold on what he thinks I'm white?

748
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: But seeing Edwin trying to get his life together, and

749
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 2: we also didn't talk about like whatever the loss was

750
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 2: that Edwin experienced with his mama. Right his mama was

751
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 2: dragged out of the house and taken by the police,

752
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 2: the people who were supposed to protect and serve, and

753
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: wasn't brought back to the next day but had a

754
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 2: limp and then they moved. There was so much unspoken

755
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: right there. There was so much unsaid, and that's where

756
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 2: the series moved really fast for me too. I'd like,

757
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 2: so we just dropping down and okay, and this is

758
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 2: really deep, really fast and really scary, and you want

759
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: to figure out why Edwin has a problem with police

760
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 2: officers and doesn't feel safe with them or the system

761
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 2: that they represent when you consider what they did to

762
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 2: his mama, and he completely blanked it out. He's like, nope,

763
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: I don't remember too much, so we know it was trauma.

764
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 2: So I think that's so important to highlight with Paige Page.

765
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: You know, she's just not learning this about her dad,

766
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 2: and she's just now learning all of these different aspects

767
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: of himself. So who knows what else she doesn't know

768
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 2: and what else she's operating on a deficit.

769
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: From right, Absolutely, I appreciate you adding that context, and

770
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 1: you're right, like that happened in what like maybe episode six,

771
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: and then there were only like two more to go,

772
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: so we didn't get a lot of exploration there. But

773
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: the series this season at least wraps up with so

774
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: Edwin has been released. So it looks like Maul has

775
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: made a call to like get him released, because you know,

776
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: it was kind of like a bogus charge in the

777
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: beginning anyway, So he has been really and it looks

778
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: as if Page and Finn will definitely Finn want him

779
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: to come back and live at the house, but he

780
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: is feeling like some trepidation around, like I've messed up again, right,

781
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: So we hear even his self talk of like I

782
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 1: gotta do this myself and I can't believe I disappointed

783
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: you again, you know, So we see him being very

784
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: critical of himself, and in the end we see his

785
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 1: old running partners uncle Fox and the other guy pick

786
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: him up and say, hey, you know, like do you

787
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: need a live kind of thing? So we leave on

788
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: a bit of a cliffhanger of like, Okay, what's going

789
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: to happen? What did you make of how the series

790
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: ended in how would you talk with Paige about where

791
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,919
Speaker 1: she finds herself with her father? Now?

792
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it was a cliffhanger. My heart was

793
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: in a chest, like, Okay, what decisions are we making?

794
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 2: What are we doing? Because we already know he'd brought

795
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 2: the car back and that was a decision where he

796
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: felt destitute again. And I would say that Edwin rustles

797
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 2: with the same issues at Page. That's around control, and

798
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 2: Edwin's most of his life other people have been controlling

799
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: what he can do, what he can eat, where he

800
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 2: can go, where he can sleep, especially being in prison

801
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: for so long, and then on the outside, those systems

802
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: feel like they're controlling him because he oftentimes feels powerless,

803
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 2: and so he's trying to do as much as he

804
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: can to acrue power. Very similar to Page. So at

805
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: the end, I'm hoping that Edwin wanting to be on

806
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: his own, He's starting to learn that he is in power,

807
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 2: that he has the power to make these decisions and choices.

808
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: And we hear him say that. When Finn was like,

809
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: it was my fault I asked you to drive, He's like, no, Finn,

810
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: I should have told you no. I should have owned

811
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 2: that decision. That's the responsibility that Paige has been looking

812
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 2: for him to take for so long. I made this

813
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: decision to leave you. He was like, I left you

814
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 2: in Nadine. That was good enough. And then he realized

815
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: it wasn't good enough because it wasn't me. And then

816
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: he's showing that how much he values them. Right, he

817
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: doesn't want Finn and Page to get in trouble, but

818
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 2: more than that, he doesn't want them to be disappointed

819
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 2: in him. And so he started to realize, wait, it's

820
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 2: not just me fending by myself alone out here, which

821
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: is how he's always kind of felt. He realizes, like,

822
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: I have people that I am accountable for and accountable too,

823
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: including myself, and I need to know I can be

824
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: accountable to myself before I can be accountable to other people.

825
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 2: And that's okay. There's a lot to strapolate from the ending,

826
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: but that's what I'm going with because I'm gonna keep

827
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 2: hope that that's what this means.

828
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 1: You know, I love that doctor leg We are gonna

829
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: keep hope alive. And you know, something you just said

830
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: made me think about like his struggle for wanting to

831
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: be independent, right and like to be in control of

832
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: his own destiny in his own life, which is why

833
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: I think we saw him struggle with like keeping the

834
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: traditional job at the thrift store, and then we know

835
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: it didn't work out at the restaurant. But I was

836
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: not clear, and it felt like there was some allusion

837
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 1: to do you think what happened with his ice cream

838
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: truck was that the guys he was playing poker with,

839
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: or those guys that were in his circle were the

840
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 1: ones that ended up stealing his ice cream truck? Did

841
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: you get that same sense?

842
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: I thought so, But I want to I told you

843
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 2: i'd I'd be trying to do rainbows and puppy dog tails. Okay,

844
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 2: but I thought so because I'm like hoh with jack

845
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: an old ice cream fridge, and it was just another

846
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 2: thing in the system that you know, quote unquote kept

847
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: the man down. So I was hoping it wasn't them,

848
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: and I know they want him back, right, and the

849
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: life does that the life pulls you right back. They

850
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: want people who work and move. Edwin was really good

851
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: at that. He's an old head, he has connections, he

852
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: knows how to get around. But yes, I had that

853
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 2: sense too, because they don't seem to be supportive of

854
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 2: his journey to be straight and narrow.

855
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: Right right, which is interesting, right, Like you know they

856
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: know he's on parole and like having to be in

857
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: a place where you know things are stable, and like

858
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: we see the whole reason he ends up staying with

859
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: Pages because they're like outside playing and there's like a

860
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: gun on the table, right, and so you know, you're

861
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: right like that, it is important to kind of then

862
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: think about, like, Okay, who is in your circle and

863
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: do they really want the best for you or do

864
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: they want you to kind of just join them because

865
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 1: that's where they're also at in life exactly.

866
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: And again I'm going to bring this back to echoing Page,

867
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: who is in your life that is trying to lift

868
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 2: you up, that is trying to provide stability for you too,

869
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: because you're providing it for everybody else. And so Edwin

870
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: and Page are walking these very parallel paths next to

871
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: one another while still trying to connect and they missed

872
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 2: each other a couple of times, but those moments of

873
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 2: connection were just so great that they were like, Wow,

874
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 2: this is what it could be if we keep at it,

875
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: this is what it could be. And I think that

876
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 2: is amazing and one on film absolutely brilliant again Chef's Kiss.

877
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 2: But then also what hope did that give to folks? Right?

878
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: How many of us don't know our biological fathers, or

879
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 2: how many of us haven't been able to connect with folks,

880
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: and how many of us are still trying to steadily

881
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 2: heal so we can connect.

882
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of layers there, and I think a

883
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: lot of things for us to kind of help examine

884
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: in our own lives. Were there any themes or things

885
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: that we didn't talk about that you felt especially important

886
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 1: to kind of talk about? Our highlight for people today?

887
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 2: If your therapist shares that much of themselves with you

888
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 2: in therapy session side of them, because page she's doing

889
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: a lot of oversharing that, I'm not sure it was

890
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,399
Speaker 2: always the benefit of her client. Now we all share

891
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 2: a little bit of therapists, right, And I think your

892
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 2: therapist needs to be a whole human. They can't just

893
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 2: be this amorphous amaton that walks around like your therapist farts,

894
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: your therapist snores. They are whole humans. Okay, we're whole humans,

895
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 2: and the question is what they're sharing is it beneficial

896
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: for you?

897
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 1: Well, and you even heard her client, because we only

898
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: saw her work with one client throughout the series, you

899
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: heard her client say like, I follow you on Instagram,

900
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: and I often feel like what you share there is

901
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: more helpful than what I get in here, which to

902
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: me was like a huge red flag, like, oh my gosh,

903
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 1: like what's happening. And so to your point, it could

904
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: be that in session she was getting a little bit

905
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: too much a paid right, which is also why I

906
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: think if we had seen her in supervision or working

907
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 1: with her own therapist, it could have added a nice

908
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: layer of additional depth to the show.

909
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 2: Baby the read the things I do for social engagement,

910
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: I'm doing better than my job. Okay, all right, yes,

911
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 2: I think we would have seen that. But also Page

912
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 2: didn't have a conduit, right, and therapy, you know, doctor

913
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 2: Joy goes both ways, Like we emotionally match with a

914
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: person so they don't feel alone. So we have to

915
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: go there in the depth of ourselves, Like I have

916
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 2: to feel the despair that I felt to mirror the

917
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: despair that you felt. It's not the same situation, but

918
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: despair is despair, and we know that Paige was feeling

919
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: overwhelmed with feelings and so they were pouring out somewhere

920
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: because they didn't have anywhere else to go. So check

921
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 2: your therapist. Make sure side one them if you need

922
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 2: to ask them who was that for, so you can

923
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: keep them accountable. But definitely check in and make sure.

924
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,439
Speaker 2: If you're not feeling it, go to therapy for Black

925
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 2: Girls and see if there's another therapists that might fit

926
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: you a little bit better.

927
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: Great points, stand doctor X. Well, let us know where

928
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: we can continue to find you and support you. What

929
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: is your website as well as any social media handles

930
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: you'd like to share?

931
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,479
Speaker 2: Ah? Thanks so you can always find me at lex

932
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 2: L double x sex SCX doc dooc dot com. That's

933
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: my website. You can subscribe to newsletters. I do not

934
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: spam mailboxes and inboxes, nor do I sell your information.

935
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: It is just for me as a way to connect

936
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 2: with my insiders. You can also join my channel on

937
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 2: Instagram and across all social media. I am lex L

938
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 2: Double x Sex. Sex doc doc.

939
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 1: And you can also check out doctor lex on the

940
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: multiple occasions she shared with us here on the podcast.

941
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: Will be sure to include all of those in the

942
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: show notes so that you can check out her website

943
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: as well as the other time she has so generously

944
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 1: shared with us. So thank you for joining me again, doctor.

945
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: Lex Thank you for having me. I missed you.

946
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: Indeed, thank you for being back. I'm so glad Doctor

947
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: Lexel was able to join us again for this episode.

948
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: To learn more about her work, or to check out

949
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: her previous appearances here on the podcast, visit the show

950
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three

951
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: oh four, and don't forget to text two of your

952
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: girls right now to encourage them to check out the episode.

953
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check

954
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

955
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into

956
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: this topic or just be in community with other sisters,

957
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.

958
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for

959
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy

960
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida

961
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: Lucas and Elise Ellis, and editing was done by Dennison Bradford.

962
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.

963
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all

964
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: real soon.

965
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 2: Take good care, what's