1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: A high school girl straight a's, a hockey star, a 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: lcross star, is found brutally murdered and buried in a 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: shallow grave at a local park, Lincoln Park. Her boyfriend 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: is soon identified and he's convicted of the murder. But 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: now after a high profile podcast called Cereal insists that 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: he's innocent, is he getting a new trial and set 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: to walk? To add insult to injury the victim, Little 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: hay hay Lee's family cannot speak English. They and she 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: have no voice. Well, you know what they're getting one, 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: They're getting a voice, Lady justice, are you listening? A 11 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: and E Thursday night, eleven pm. We want justice for 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: hay Lee and that means to many court watchers that 13 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: her killer, add Non Sayed, stays behind bars. Thursday night, 14 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: eleven PM. A and E Grace versus Abrams Please join 15 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: us Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph 16 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. That jury room was divided with 17 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: those for murder conviction goes against Juris revealed the compromise 18 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: that helped them bring the case to an end, and 19 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: they asked this question, why was Text mcdiver's figure on 20 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: the trigger of his gun while he was asleep with 21 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: his wife nearby. It was not an accident. Um, his 22 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: hand was on the trigger. Gun's just gonna go off. 23 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: Robs killers say mcdiver was having money troubles and shot 24 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: his wife, Diane. My diver has always said it was 25 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: an accident. You you you stack your wife from the back. 26 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: A jurard who sat in the box says, pronounces, announces, 27 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: quote he's going to jail. I'm talking about as you're 28 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: on the high profile case of a wealthy lawyer who 29 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: quote e at Sidilly shoots his wife in the back 30 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: while driving down a dark highway. I Nancy Grace, this 31 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: is crime stories. Thank you for being with us. Text mcgever. 32 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: High profile lawyer Claude text mgeiver just found guilty of 33 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: felony murder and other charges. And it ends a story 34 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: that all begins with the fatal shooting of his wife, 35 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: a beautiful and highly successful wife, Diane. Now this charge 36 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: carries a mandatory life sentence. The jury acquitted text mgiver 37 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: on intentional or malice murder, which would have meant the killing, 38 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: of course, was premeditated. But the high profile lawyer guilty 39 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: of four lesser charges. Including aggravated assault, possession of a firearm, 40 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: witness influence, and sing. And because a death occurred during 41 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: the commission of that felony aggravated assault, that means a 42 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: felony murder charge. Joining me right now, Crime Stories investigative 43 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: reporter and Emmy Award winning journalist Art Harris, who has 44 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: been at the courthouse. First of all, let me get 45 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: something straight. Art first and foremost, is it true my 46 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: former protege, Clint Rucker, who tried the case for the state, 47 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: stole my muddy water? Is it true? Art? Nancy? I 48 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: saw you use that, and he held up a mason jar, 49 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: shook it up with muddy creek, Orter and told the jury. 50 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: By the time it settles and I finished my argument, 51 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: it will be as clear as the truth that he's 52 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: guilty of murder. And when he seeing Mr Rutger right now, 53 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: but apparently it worked, tell me the whole thing. Art, 54 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: start at the beginning, and Nancy, he of he made 55 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: a case for a man who was obsessed with with money, 56 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: and that greed took a back seat. Grief took a 57 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: back seat to greed. And and here was a guy 58 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: who shot his wife in the back coming off of 59 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: of a downtown exit at night. Um, it was, and 60 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: you know he did not take the exit. So the 61 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: question was how was he going to overcome the reasonable 62 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: doubt that this was a murder? That Text had his gun, 63 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: he requested it to have it in his lap because 64 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: they were going through a bad part of town and 65 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: suddenly it goes off, and that's when they raced to 66 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: the emergency room at Emory Hospital. And uh, he's ushered 67 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: in And a series of missteps by Text mcgever, whether 68 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: there were a planned or or or stupid, conspire to 69 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: make him look guilty, tells numerous lies about what happened. 70 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: Art Harris, arn't Harris, listen. I know you well enough 71 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: to know what you mean by that the facts conspired 72 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: to make mc iver look guilty. Okay, that sounds to 73 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: me like what you're saying is he's not really guilty, 74 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: but appearances, Uh, perception became reality and he was found guilty. 75 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: Also with me with me in addition to Aunt Harris 76 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: is probably an investigator. Vince Hill, guys were bringing you 77 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: the very latest from the courthouse. Text mc iver has 78 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: been found guilty in the murder of his wife, Diane Vincent. 79 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: What do you say to aunt Harris's phraseology that the 80 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: facts conspired to make McIver look guilty. And I gotta 81 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: tell you something, Vincent, I wasn't completely convinced myself, believe 82 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: it or not. Because the wife when she got in 83 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: the hospital and was set asked, did your husband do 84 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: this on purpose? On purpose? She said no, it was 85 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: an accident. So tell me, Vincent Hill, how is this 86 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: guy found guilty? Well, Nancy, I wasn't convinced, just like you, 87 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: and I think what it came down to is the 88 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: jury couldn't convict on this malice murder, which would have 89 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: had to prove intent. And the prosecution went on to say, 90 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: what's about money impossible affairs? But with felony murder you 91 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: don't need the intent. That element is thrown out. You 92 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 1: just have to prove that someone died during the commission 93 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: of a felony. And since Text was charged with the 94 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: aggravated assault, what's the felony here in Georgia the felony 95 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: aggravated assault led to her death. Therefore, they convicted on 96 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: the felony murder without the intent. Okay, f y I 97 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: Ashley Willcot Atlanta Junal Judge and founder of child crime 98 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: watch dot com f y I. Aggravated assault when you 99 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: shoot somebody with a firearm, that is a felony, and 100 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: every jurisdiction in our country that's right. But it requires intent. 101 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: So this is a fascinating case. I think that it 102 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: sets it up for some appeal grounds, or at least 103 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: arguments on appeal, because the jury says, okay, no intent 104 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: for murder, So we're not going to convict on murder, 105 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: but we are going to convict on felony murder, which 106 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: does not require the intent. But we're also going to 107 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: convict on the aggravated assault, which is the felony underlying 108 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: the murder. So some as intent, some doesn't. If you 109 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: want to argue that for appeal purposes, I think it 110 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: was the right verdict. But I'm just saying, you know 111 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people argue on appeal Actley that the 112 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: aggravated assault and the this maybe two inside baseball, the 113 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: agasalt and the death merge. And you cannot use agasalt 114 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: as an underlying felony. It has to be an independent 115 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: felony like a rape or a burglary. That's the felony 116 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: that underlies felony. Murder. You gotta have a felony to 117 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: have a filter with me. Dr Judith Joseph, new York psychiatrist. 118 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: You can find her at www dot Judith Joseph m 119 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: d dot com and author of a brand new book 120 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 1: coming out in August. I met Dr Judith at Odd 121 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: Dr oz in New York and was totally knocked out 122 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: by her. Dr Judith. I think one of the things 123 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: that lent to the guilty verdict is the way he 124 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: acted text mcaver after the death. He had a huge 125 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: consignment cell within a couple of months, got rid of 126 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: everything belonging to his wife, raised a bunch of money, 127 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: asked people to change their stories, and very important what 128 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: happened after the incident Diane mcaver's longtime friend and mentor, 129 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: Bill Corey, who I assumed started Corey Limousine, a huge 130 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 1: enterprise where she had risen through the ranks, appear it 131 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: at a news conference after the verdict with prosecutors. Her 132 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: long time mentor and friend stood with the prosecutors on 133 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: the courthouse steps after the verdict and said quote they 134 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: stood up for Diane. Now, Dr Judith Joseph, when friends 135 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: and family side with the prosecution. That tells me that 136 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: they agree with the prosecution. They this guy wasn't coming 137 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: out sobbing into his fist because text mcover was guilty, 138 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: was found guilty. You know what I mean, Judith, you 139 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: know Nancy. I think what's telling is you heard it 140 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: from the wives the mouth. You heard her say no, 141 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: he did it by mistake. And I think what people 142 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: don't realize is that one in three US women are 143 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: victims of abuse. They're victims of verbal abuse, emotional abuse, harassment, 144 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: physical abuse, one and three. Who knows what this poor 145 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: woman went through. And again I did not treat them, 146 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: I did not know them. But on her death she 147 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: was still defending her husband. That that to me is 148 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: the most shocking part of what you said. You know, 149 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: the sociopaths, that's a range. There's a wide range of sociopathy. 150 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: You have, you know, the terrible boyfriend, the one who 151 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: stalk and then you have this psychopaths, the calculating serial murders. 152 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: And somewhere along the line, I believe this man exhibited 153 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: signs of sociopathy. The lying there, not taking responsibility for 154 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 1: his actions, the impulsivity, the hotheadedness. You know, there are 155 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: so many holes in his story, So who knows what 156 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: she went through in this marriage. However, the that the 157 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: family eventually took her side and defended her shows that 158 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: there was something going on that we did not know about, 159 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: that the public does not know about, and only those 160 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: clothes of the family members knew. Judith, what an insight? 161 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: What an insight? Before I throw you to a gail 162 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: house interview, I really want you to hear real quickly. 163 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: Are Harriston? I hear Vincent Hill correctly? Did I hear 164 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: him say the word affair? Well? He played on the 165 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: notion of Nick Ivor's having a possible fair with his 166 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: massage therapist, which turned out not to be true but 167 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: was never fully dispelled. But what was she connected to 168 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: the fur the fur coat? No, she wore the boots? Uh, 169 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: that prosecutor said, Diane, given here for Jackie Howard, who 170 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: is staying around as if she's wearing a fair coat 171 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: a fur coat? She was the mass turned up and 172 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: his dead wife's favorite boots right after her death. Yes, 173 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: that's it. Yes, But guess what, Nancy. The boots were two. 174 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: They were too big, and somebody said, hey, if the 175 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: boost don't fit, you must have quit and uh so 176 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: she was not. She was maybe having a gift. She 177 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: had a gift, but they were not Diane's boots because 178 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: they were the wrong size. In any case, none of 179 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: those those nuggets were dispelled art art. No, those boots 180 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: were Diane's because they were very um unique boots. You 181 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: don't just find them anywhere. And I don't know what 182 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: has gotten into you. Aren't hairs. You're the quote Emmy 183 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: Award winning journalist, and you keep acting like there wasn't 184 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: enough evidence to convict Listen. I was on the fence. 185 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: I really expected them to come back with influencing a witness. 186 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: I did not know after well after Rutger made that argument, though, 187 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: he pulled an anti grace and wove this this amazing 188 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: tale of of him being an octopus who sprayed ink 189 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: to cover his his escape and his manipulations. Uh and 190 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 1: the doctor is right. His nickname was the Fixer because 191 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: he was a lawyer in high ranking Republican Party member 192 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: who got things done quietly behind the scenes. He was 193 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: used to getting his his way, and he could not 194 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: fix his own seat. I don't really know anything that 195 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: you just said, aren't Harris, But I didn't have to 196 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: weave a picture of the truth. Hello, it spoke for itself. 197 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get you aren't Harris, But first take a 198 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: listen to this jailhouse interview with our friend Mark Winnie. 199 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: Listen to this, and as I learned in the Scouts, 200 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: that's your obligation to protect people around me. And that's 201 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: what I was doing that night. That's what I've done 202 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: other times. And sometimes that's a weapon, sometimes it's martial arts. 203 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: It's whatever we we need. But guns are not my thing. 204 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: You let it very successful life are a major life 205 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: and out age seventy four. You're in a jail. Well, 206 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: I hope to be out, assuming that the reality is Um, 207 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: I just I just missed my wife so much. It 208 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: was the perfect marriage. It re was. Yeah, I just 209 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: every day I reached four in the morning when I 210 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: wake up. Just anyway, I've got your lap on my 211 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: faith art Harris Crime Stories contributing reporter martial arts text 212 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: mc iver's what how old is this guy? Martial arts? 213 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: My this guy is not do you want anybody? Marcia? 214 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: I mean, right there, that's the biggest line of b 215 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: yes I've ever heard. I want you to take a 216 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: listen now, as the jury. Four person reads the verdict, 217 00:14:49,640 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: which means verdict into the red murder on count two, 218 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: tell me murder, you find a dependent dependent murder. I'm three, 219 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: all find the dependent guilty. Oncount four, possession of a 220 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: fire during the comission of elmy, we find a dependent guilty. 221 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: I caught five influencing. We find the dependent. Thank you, Jered, 222 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: you can take the seat, Keepie Murphy, if you would 223 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: please ve verdier form to Mr Rutger and then to 224 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: Mr Hard Guys. That was a jury reading out the verdict. 225 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: The jury of seven women and five men deliberated over 226 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: twenty nine hours. It took him five days before they 227 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: came down with a verdict. They heard from seventy eight 228 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: witnesses and the case lasted six weeks of testimony. For 229 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: a minute there they said they were deadlock. Vincent Hill 230 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: joining me. Private investor Gator was in the courtroom when 231 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: that went down. You know, Vincent, when I heard they 232 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: were deadlock, I thought it was all she wrote. I 233 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: thought that the judge would dynamite them, in other words, 234 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: give them the Alan charge and they come back, you know, 235 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: dug in. But they didn't. They came back with a verdict, that, 236 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: of course, is going to be a grounds for appeal. 237 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: They defense going to say the judge forced them into 238 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: the decision. What did the what would did the jury 239 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: look like? Did they look like they were getting along, 240 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: did they look like they were arguing? Did they sit 241 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: in clumps, did they sit together? Were they jovial with 242 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: each other when they would come in from breaks? I mean, 243 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: what was your take on the jury, Vincent Hill? Yeah, 244 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: they were jovial up until yesterday, and Nancy, when they 245 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: were deadlock and the judge told them basically to go 246 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: back and come to a verdict. I mean, the local 247 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: in their face was just like, you've gotta be kidding me. 248 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: We've been here for seven weeks. Why is this not over? 249 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: And keep in mind and O. J. Simpson and all 250 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: the evidence, the physical evidence that the prosecution had that 251 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: deliberation only took four hours. This was five plus days 252 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: of deliberations. So the jury was so frustrated yesterday, Nancy, 253 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: I believe it to Dr Judith Joseph, New York psychiatrist 254 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: at Judith Joseph m D dot com. Judith, the jury 255 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: really took it in. Those seven women on the jury 256 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: when they found out text. Mccayvor had a big boutique. 257 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: We call it a yard sale, okay, but there's was 258 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: a consignment cell and a fancy boutique and made about 259 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand dollars fur coats, UH, designer clothing, boots, handbags, 260 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: lots of jewelry. I think that rubbed the jury the 261 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: wrong way. Dr Judith absolutely agree, and I'm sorry I 262 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: overstepped when I was just talking. But I think that 263 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: the fact that the deliberation took so long have to 264 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: do most likely with his his skills. Let's not forget 265 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: this is a person who knows how to work the system. 266 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: And you know, I've never met him and ever treated him, 267 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: but from the facts and what I've read, he had 268 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: this grandiose sense of self talking about martial arts, bragging 269 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: about the way he could maneuver the system, and then 270 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: being so brazen after the death, wearing buying expensive things. 271 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: These are not the actions of someone who is grieving 272 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: and and this probably angered the family members who if 273 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: they had any nugget of doubt that was wiped out 274 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: based on the behaviors after her her passing. So so 275 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: remember these people are very selfish. Sociopathy has a lot 276 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: to do with people who lies, They blame others, they 277 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: victimize themselves all the while they're planning to to to 278 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: to victimize another person. So they play as if they 279 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: are the victim, they were the ones that were done wrong. However, 280 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: they actually end up victimizing others. So let's keep that 281 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: in mind. To Ashley Willcott, Atlanta, Jeven, I old judge, 282 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: founder of child Crime watch dot com, Ashley, we have 283 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: been watching this case. I've especially been watching it because 284 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: Clint Rutcker trained under me, who was now the lead 285 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: prosecutor on the Text mcaiver case. And I worked with 286 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: him for many, many years and feel very close to him, 287 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: and I'm proud of him, whether he won or lost 288 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: getting through the Text mcaiver case. On the other side, 289 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: for a short while was a guy I looked up 290 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: to a lot it. His name had been Judge Bill Hill. 291 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you how I know Bill Ashley. When 292 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: I was prosecuting, every murder conviction goes up. All convictions 293 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 1: go up on appeal, but murder convictions go up on appeal, 294 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: and the States Attorney General's Office always writes and am 295 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: because cury brief a friend of the court to help 296 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: support and hold the conviction. They're not asked to do it, 297 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: but they do it on every murder conviction in the 298 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: state of Georgia. Well, Bill Hill somehow landed in with 299 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: me and would right and argue some of them. He 300 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: didn't argue it, I argued it, but he would write 301 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: some very difficult amicas curity briefs. You know. I would 302 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: write my own and he would write a supporting brief. 303 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: And that's how I met him. The moment I met him. 304 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: Uh oh. I also met him in federal court because 305 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: he was trying to hold a conviction on a case 306 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: that later got reversed, that was tried before I became 307 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: a prosecutor. That's when I first met him, and his 308 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: grasp of the facts and the law was so impressive. 309 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: I can still remember coming back to the District Attorney, 310 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: the elected d A, and saying, you know this guy 311 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: Bill Hill in the AG's office. He is sharp. He 312 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: went on to be a judge, and then he went 313 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: into private practice and for a little while represented tex MacIver. So. 314 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: I've been watching it from both sides of the fence, Ashley. 315 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: A lot of times juries render vardicts on emotion, something 316 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: happens during the trial that just strikes them the wrong way. 317 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you another pivotal moment and had nothing 318 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: to do with the murder when they brought in the 319 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: state brought in text mc Iver's arsenal of weapons, forty 320 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: plus long guns, revolvers, you name it. I mean, it 321 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: was staggering all of his weapons and ammo he kept. 322 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: And then his wife died of a gunshot. One that 323 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: just doesn't make a good impression, Ashley. Well, it doesn't. 324 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: Not only that, Nancy, but think about every shred of 325 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: evidence that the prosecution had presented. Well also reads and 326 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: and highlights his arrogance. Text mc iver is a very 327 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: powerful man in Atlanta, Georgia. He was with a big firm, 328 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: he was a part of the Republican Party. He did 329 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: have wealth, and so he perceived his power in such 330 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 1: a way and flaunted it and extra size that there 331 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: really was a real arrogance. And I do not think 332 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: that that is something the jury liked either. I agree. 333 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: Another thing is when you have a jury in the box, 334 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: you have to remember that them, like many of us 335 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: on the panel right now, came from I mean I came, 336 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, ash from a red dirt road with a 337 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: red water coming out of the faucet from it. Well, 338 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: my grandfather, Doug. And when you put somebody up and 339 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: present them as rolling in fur codes and an expensive jewelry, 340 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: and and then not just that, but then the arrogance 341 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: that goes with it, nobody likes that. Nobody likes that. 342 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,239 Speaker 1: It makes them dislike the person deep down. Especially when 343 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: you take the next step, follow the money. Then you 344 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: hear financial problems. Financial problem follow that money. You put 345 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: those two together, you almost have a surefire way to 346 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: convince a jury. Hey, this is good evidence that he 347 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: did this, that he killed his wife. You know, Aunt 348 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: Harris with me art I was never convinced about Texas 349 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: Macayre having an affair. And that didn't mean think of 350 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: me one way or the other, because it was a 351 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: very strong evidence. But the money problems. How could these 352 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: two people with all that money have a money problem. 353 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: I can tell you this after losing my dad recently, 354 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: after losing my fiance to Marta, after laying up in 355 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: the hospital with John David with a head injury for 356 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: four days straight. If money is your problem, you don't 357 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: have a problem. Okay, how could these two people with 358 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: all that money, have a money problem, Nancy. Here here 359 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: you have a guy with whose income has been cut 360 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: in half at his law firm. He's getting up in age, 361 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: so he's only making about two d thousand a year 362 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: and his wife has about seven million dollars in her 363 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: at the state. Alan, can you stop, art, okay, Art, 364 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: stop that train. You said he was now, you know, 365 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: kind of semi retired or emeritus in his law firm 366 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: of council, and his salary was cut in half. Pray tail. 367 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: What was his reduced salary? It was about two d thousand, Nancy, 368 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: but it wasn't enough dollars a million dollars Manthy. He 369 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: had a farm in Puttingham County. It cost twenty a 370 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: month to run to keep up his image of being 371 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: the Mr Texts with the horses and the uh you know, 372 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 1: and this acreage and you know. So he was worried 373 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: because he had to sign his farm over to his 374 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: wife to get a loan from her. She held the 375 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: title of the farm and actually her estate could possibly 376 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: foreclose if he didn't start making payments, and that was 377 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: a bone of contention between them. Rutger argued that that 378 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: this was a woman who was very savvy about her money, 379 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: and that their financial affairs were supposed to be separate, 380 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: but she kept fronting him to carry his load. And 381 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: that's what what he argued was the the you know, 382 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: imbalance of power in the marriage, and text had to 383 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: do something to take care of that and would be 384 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: much better off if if she was dead than alive. Ashley, Okay, 385 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: I did not know that because I can't remember when 386 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: I crashed my car during a murder investigation and nobody 387 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: was hurt. The other person only had their button fall 388 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: off their pants. The my my now husband, gave me 389 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: his old car, okay, and I would pay him back. 390 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: Whenever I'd spare change, I'd throw it on the kitchen counter. 391 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: Go there, there's your payment for this man. But this woman, Ashley, 392 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: she's no dummy. She had him inside a document and 393 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: she was fronting him the money on the farm. That 394 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: was a very formal loan. Did you just hear that? Uh? 395 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: That one thing convinced me they had a money problem 396 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: between them exactly. Not only that. To me, what it 397 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: screams is she didn't trust this man. I see this 398 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: as a judge on the bench all the time, people 399 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: do those steps when they do not trust their partner. 400 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us, a major verdict 401 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: has just been handed down by a jury of twelve 402 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: who went through six weeks of evidence and testimony in 403 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: the case of a very high profile lawyer rolling in money. 404 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: And it's even more successful wife, Diane McIver now Diane 405 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: mckeiver's business Vincent Hill, private investigator. Um. Her business was 406 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: that she led the Corey limousine enterprise, which is all 407 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: over the country. I mean this was a very successful businesswoman. Correct, 408 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: that is correct, Nancy. I think the pros acution said 409 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: she was worth about seven point five million dollars. Okay, 410 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: let me understand something one more time now, Art Harris, 411 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: you obviously are defense oriented in this case. I'm a 412 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: little shocked. Guys, Just so you know, Art and I 413 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: have an inside deal. His uh half sister, my dear 414 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: friend Meg prosecuted with me is d A's office. So Art, 415 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: Art Harris, tell me one more time in regular people 416 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: talk air, Art, don't go off in your journalistic jargon. 417 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: What was it you were telling me? He and there's 418 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: a cure for owning a twenty thousand dollar a month ranch. 419 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: It's called sell it, okay, if you cannot afford it, 420 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: so art heris tell me in regular people talk in 421 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: a nutshell? What was the deal Diane struck with her 422 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: husband Text mc iver in order for him to keep bench. 423 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: He had a farm that cost about dollars to me pain, 424 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: and she advanced him a chunk of money up to 425 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: a half million dollars to keep it running, but got 426 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: a signed document and return, so she ultimately would own 427 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: the farm if he didn't say her back. Oh, she 428 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: did not trust him as far as she could throw him. Oh, 429 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: dear lord, Okay, all right, I know what that means. 430 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: But on my all appearances outwardly they were very happy. 431 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: And I'm telling you that yard sale that he had 432 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: at that fancy boutique of all of her designer clothes. 433 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: I mean, he couldn't get rid of her stuff fast enough. 434 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: You know. Every day I go by and I touched 435 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: my fiance's baseball he's on baseball scholarship, and I look 436 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: at my dad with my dad's clothes. In fact, a 437 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: lot of times I travel with my dad's shirt and 438 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: wear it when I'm out of town because I miss 439 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: him so much. He couldn't unload her stuff fast enough. 440 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: You know, Art Harris, you were in the courtroom. What 441 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: do you think was the turning point in the trial? Nancy? 442 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: The d A had to explain how this guy holding 443 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: a gun, their thirty eight revolver in his lap uh 444 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: and apparently going to sleep, how he could possibly shoot 445 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: it uh and deliberately mean to kill her. Well, the 446 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: you know that that has not been established. But the 447 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: jury asked to go sit in the in the Ford 448 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: expedition and sit in the back seat where Text had 449 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: been sitting and purportedly holding the gun in his lap, 450 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: and look at the actual trajectory through the seat that 451 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: was recreated by this this little rod they had and 452 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: actually asked to hold the gun as well. So suddenly 453 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: have these jurors going to the car and holding the gun, 454 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: and it sounded like they figured, well, you know what 455 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: this guy could have he would have had to have 456 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,719 Speaker 1: aimed at or you know, just wasn't sitting on his lap, 457 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: didn't go off, as her former ball said, thirty eight 458 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: just don't fire by itself. And so that the d 459 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: A thought was a turning point that they were able 460 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: to visualize that it was possible, uh to shoot her, 461 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: but you might have to use a little bit of 462 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: will uh and planning to do it in the back 463 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: seat so that it didn't you know, you didn't hit 464 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: a bump um thirty eight has about what twenty pounds 465 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: events of no better? Twenty pounds of trigger pool pressure. 466 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: Got to hold the gun, Ashley will got uh, juvenile judge, 467 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: you've tried a lot of cases, uh, fan of child 468 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: crime watch dot com. Ashley trigger pool and the terms 469 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: aren't is using? Means how hard you have to pull 470 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: on the trigger to open it? You know, you can 471 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: compare it to open a jar. When you're opening a 472 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: jar you've opened twenty times, it's easy. Sometimes the first 473 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: time you open it, you've got to beat it on 474 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: the counter. You've got to ask other people to help. 475 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: You've got a twist and turn. Same thing with a 476 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: trigger pool. Some guns have a light pul some have 477 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: pounds and pounds of pull. They wanted to see that 478 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: gun to see if he was really asleep and it 479 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 1: had a hard trigger pool. How could that have been 480 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: an accident? How would he pull it in his sleep? 481 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: That's right. That's a significant piece of evidence for them 482 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: to actually hold the gun, because the other pieces, you know, 483 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: he argued, Oh, they went over a bump when he 484 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: was asleep and it went off. You're right by actually 485 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: feeling that holding it in their hand. That's what makes 486 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: cases think about O. J. Simpson and the glove not fitting. 487 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: When they can visualize, touch, feel these things. That makes 488 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: a huge impact on a jury understanding whether or not 489 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: a story like text mc iver told is plausible or not. 490 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, aren't Ashley, You're absolutely right. 491 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: Take a listen to what a jurard like Heisha Boyd said. 492 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: What we do know is that she's no longer with 493 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: us and that we had to give justice and justice 494 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: to a certain and we was able to come up 495 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: with you. You you shot your wife in the back. 496 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: A gun just don't go off, so we didn't think 497 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: that it was accidental. Well, there you hear it in 498 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: the words from the mouth of a juror, Lakisha Boyd. 499 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: A gun doesn't just quote go off, Lakaisha, I could 500 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: not agree with you more. And last, I want to 501 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: go to my colleague and friend, Clint ruck Or, the 502 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: lead attorney on the text, mccarivor Prosecutions, who never gave 503 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: up and never gave in and PS stole all my 504 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: bag of tricks. Listen to Clint, what was it that 505 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: was pivotal for them that they zeroed in on um? Well, 506 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: you know, what they expressed to me was that the 507 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: issue of intent UM provided uh some challenges for them, 508 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: and it was because of the language in the charge 509 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: with the express to me is that the charge itself 510 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: was a little confusing for them, a little hard to understand. 511 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: It's written in legal ease and so um it took 512 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: them a while to kind of dissect the actual language 513 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: of the charge. And to me, that is what I 514 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: took that they spent the most amount of time. Okay, guys, 515 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: this is what we know. Text mcgiver has been found guilty, 516 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: high profile lawyer in the shooting death of his gorgeous 517 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: and successful wife Diane. Let this be a lesson to us, 518 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: all the love of money the root of all evil. 519 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: Text mc ivor headed to jail. We now had from 520 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: that Atlanta court room across the country to Indiana, where 521 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: a shocking decision has been made. No jail time for 522 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: an Indiana fertility doctor who lies about using his own 523 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: sperm to inseminate his lady patients. What no jail time? 524 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: So all these women who are desperate to have a family. 525 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: They want a baby so badly they do it all. 526 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: They shoot themselves up with all those chemicals and hormones, 527 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: like Elizabeth Edwards did, who later passed away with cancer. 528 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: Finally they go the artificial insemination route and they find 529 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: they say they want a young college student or a 530 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: medical intern or a resident, and this duck says, oh yeah, 531 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: I can do that. This dirty old man is using 532 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: his own sperm and inseminating all these women with his 533 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: own sperm. Okay, help me out with me. Uh. From 534 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: a side, I'm a big fan of heavy dot Com. 535 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: With me is heavy dot Com report. Jennifer Schakowski. Jennifer, 536 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: please tell me I'm wrong. I wish you were. I 537 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: truly wish you were. And I'm saying this as someone, um. 538 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: You know, not every woman is blessed, obviously to be 539 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: able to compete children on their own. I'm a person 540 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: I was married later in life than many, but before 541 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: I met my husband, the thought of going to a 542 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: fertility doctor myself to have a baby on my own. 543 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,959 Speaker 1: It did, admit it, admittedly, but briefly crossed my mind. 544 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not sure future worlds, but a 545 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,720 Speaker 1: fertility clinic could be in our future. I can value 546 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: one thing. If I had gone when I was single, 547 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: I would have hands down wanted the donor to be anonymous. 548 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: Um so the way it's just a so creepy, and 549 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: he would apparently bring the ladies handy and then drape 550 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: them from the waist down. They couldn't see anything that 551 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: he was doing. You know what, I don't want to 552 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: know what he was doing. What does he like go 553 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: into the closet with a video of white hot nurses 554 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: and come out with a cup full of sperm. I mean, 555 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm just completely grossed out by this whole thing. But 556 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: being grossed out is not the whole story started off 557 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: from the get go, Jennifer, Yeah, I mean it's disgusting. 558 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: So the way it all started out, Nancy. In two 559 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, a woman named Jacoba Ballard. She knew that 560 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: she was a donor, a donor baby, and she became 561 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: curious about her family history and she thought she'd started 562 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: search in the case to find out if she had 563 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: any siblings. She took a DNA test from twenty three 564 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: and Me and that's a biotech company that uses salive 565 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: examples health determine ancestry identified both close and distant relatives 566 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: and also things like health risks and physical traits. So 567 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 1: Jacoba Ballard's results showed showed that she had seven half 568 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: to blings, which is when she and two others. Then, 569 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: so you're like an only child and you just start 570 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 1: playing around with whatever ancestry dot com or me plus 571 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: something to do, and a sudden bam, you find out 572 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: you've got seven brothers or sisters. Like, okay, surprise, that 573 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: will wake you up in the morning. So Jack Brinkowski 574 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: joining me from heavy dot Com. What happens then? Okay? 575 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: So then they she got together with two others and 576 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: assembled the family tree, and that's when they came to 577 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: find out that each of their mothers had all been 578 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: Donald clients patients. So that's when the red flakes started 579 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: going up. Um Jacoba and a group of the half 580 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: to blains they met with Dr Klein and she said 581 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: that he had told them all conflicting stories, but then 582 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: did eventually admit he had donated s firm about fifty 583 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: times to help unknowing patients who were desperate for children. 584 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: H Then Jacoba Ballard, along with women whose DNA test 585 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: determined that she was a half sisters of hers. They 586 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: filed complaints with the Indiana Attorney General's office. Another woman, 587 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: Julie Harmon, she had always thought that she had a 588 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: biological connection with her father. Years earlier, though she had 589 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: a blood test and it showed that her actual blood 590 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: type indicated she wasn't the child of both of her parents, 591 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: but she really she never followed up on on that test. 592 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: Years later is when she saw a news story about 593 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: Donald Klein and that news story featured Jacoba Ballard. After 594 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: the show, she said, she just knew something was wrong. Uh, 595 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 1: she was right. She ended up having a DNA test 596 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: done and and she was linked to Donald Klein with 597 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: an accuracy of over so, as Julie Harmon put it, 598 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: she had literally thirty five years ripped away from her. 599 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 1: She lost her entire identity to this and and DNA 600 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: has showed Dr Klein is very likely the biological father 601 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: of as many as twenty children who were tested. That 602 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:39,359 Speaker 1: doesn't include the others that that could still be out there. Ah, 603 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: Julie Harmon, So if you can imagine most of the 604 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: people who are linked to him, after taking a task, 605 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: they had no idea what they were getting themselves into, 606 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: and in the end to Coba thought she'd get lucky 607 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: and find a siblinger too. Not almost a dozen of them, 608 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: and who knows how many more? You know, I'm just 609 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: trying to take the whole thing in with me, as 610 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: she Willcott, Atlanta juvenile judge, founder of child crime watch 611 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,240 Speaker 1: dot com. Our new guest Dr Judith Joseph, New York psychiatrist, 612 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: very well known. You can find her at Judith Joseph 613 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,760 Speaker 1: MD dot com with a new book coming out in August, 614 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: and private investigator Vincent Hill to ask she Wilcott, I mean, 615 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: what what we know is that former patients of this 616 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: Indianapolis fertility doctor are angry that he avoided jail time 617 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,240 Speaker 1: for lying about using his own sperm to get dozens 618 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: of women pregnant after telling them the donors were anonymous 619 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: his name doctor Donald Klein, and he gets a one 620 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: year suspended sentence. He played guilty to two counts of 621 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: lying to investigators that substruction of justice. No other charges 622 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: were filed, and lawmakers say it's because a fertility doctor 623 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 1: using his own sperm, it's not specifically against the law 624 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: in Indiana. Hello, what about alternative charges such as criminal 625 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:22,280 Speaker 1: gross criminal negligence, or criminal conduct or or or criminal fraud. 626 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: What about that exactly, especially when it's not just that 627 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: he told the mothers these are anonymous um sperm donations. 628 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: That he also went two steps further. He said, number one, 629 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: no more than three specimens are taken from each person, 630 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,359 Speaker 1: so that a mother would think, oh, it's not going 631 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 1: to be one father of thirty children. The second thing 632 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: he told them was and the donors are medical residents, 633 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: they're in med school. So I'm I'm flabbergasted, frankly as 634 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: a judge that you don't see other criminal charges again 635 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: to him, because of the length he went to to 636 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: mislead all of these potential mothers. I'm just sick about it. 637 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: Charged with line to investigators and then no jail time. 638 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: It's really over the top. There are dozens of people 639 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: who say that they are angry, upset that they have 640 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: lost their sense of identity. They're struggling with that they 641 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: now find out they've lost a whole lifetime with half siblings. 642 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: It goes on and on and on. And he initially 643 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: lied about it and then called the people accusing him, 644 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,800 Speaker 1: claiming they were committing slander on him to doctor Judith Joseph, 645 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: New York psychiatrist, Well, you and doctors Judith, what about 646 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 1: the arrogance? Maybe a god complex? Absolutely, And as a physician, 647 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,439 Speaker 1: as a medical doctor myself, you take the hippocratic oath. 648 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: You are supposed to protect your patients. And you know 649 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: these women they are probably sitting in his office and 650 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: crying to him, and he sat with them, and he's 651 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,800 Speaker 1: heard their struggles and and I VS. Is painful. So 652 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: for him to do that, after hearing these people's struggles 653 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: and their their emotional pain, that there's got to be 654 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: some element of sociopathy. And again, you know, I haven't 655 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: treated him. However, sociopaths lie on arrange, and one thing 656 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: that they have in common is that grandiosity, that God complex. 657 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: They don't want to be the leader of a cult 658 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 1: of two, they want to be the leader of a 659 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,479 Speaker 1: cult of many. And in this person's case, who knows 660 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 1: how many children there were out there, there could be hundreds, 661 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: So absolutely likely as sociopaths, a disregard for for others, 662 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 1: a lack of being able to put himself in people's shoes. 663 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: This this this narcissism, this sense of entitlement, and they're 664 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,879 Speaker 1: very charming, they're highly manipulative. Who knows what the jurors heard, 665 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: who knows what they saw? He got off way too easy. 666 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: In my opinion, I'm very, very distraught about the way 667 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,800 Speaker 1: this whole thing has gone down Vincent Hill with a 668 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: easy online DNA test. Now, it's hard to keep a 669 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: secret like that, Yeah, Nancy, As far as I'm concerned, 670 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: this guy committed sexual assault on a bunch of women 671 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: without the physicality piece of it. Yes, they were assuming 672 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: they were getting an anonymous donor, but it wasn't him 673 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: that they were thinking of. So when he did this, 674 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: in his twisted mind, he was sexually assaulting these women 675 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: when he did that, and he knew exactly what he 676 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: was doing. According to one of his daughters, he says 677 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: that he is only his Donald Klein's only remorse was 678 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: being caught. What about that, Ashley Willcott? Ashley just texting 679 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: me she had to go in. Okay, stop, all right, 680 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: Jennifer Sakowski, what about that? I'm sorry? Can you repeat 681 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:04,800 Speaker 1: just that the last part? One? Sorry, I have to 682 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: go a patient. Okay, bye, dot A JUDEA, thank you? 683 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 1: Is everybody settled and ready? I'm ready great, Jennifer Sakowski 684 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,319 Speaker 1: with me heavy dot com. What about that the one 685 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,959 Speaker 1: nearly discovered daughter, Judy Julie Harmon says, quote, his only 686 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:36,279 Speaker 1: remorse was being caught. I mean that is that's despicable. 687 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: It's it's disgusting. And I agree, you know, in maybe 688 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 1: in the eye of the Indiana law, it wasn't a problem. Um, 689 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 1: you have to look at the ethical aspects of this, 690 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 1: and I agree he was sexually assaulting these women. That 691 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: is what it boils down to. And I cannot believe 692 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: that there weren't any any further charges. Um and Julie 693 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,800 Speaker 1: Harmon told the Chicago Tribune, Now this was kind of 694 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: a something beautiful coming out of a terrible, horrifying story. 695 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: She said that whenever she receives an online notification that 696 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: a DNA trust has identified yet another half sibling, and 697 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: who knows how often this is going to be happening 698 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,680 Speaker 1: and how many more there will be, she and two 699 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: others who are linked to Donald Tyne through DNA, they 700 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,320 Speaker 1: check Facebook for mutual friends who can then explain the situation. 701 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: Otherwise one of the three will try to do it themselves. 702 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's and uh, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jennifer, Okay, 703 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,799 Speaker 1: So what else that I was going to say one 704 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 1: of the mothers who thought that she was being inseminated 705 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,280 Speaker 1: by her own husband, what you've got that senten scene? 706 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 1: She said, The least that she would have liked to 707 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: have had uh for Dr Klein was an ankle Brieflet. 708 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,399 Speaker 1: I mean, come on, would that really be too much 709 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,880 Speaker 1: to ask? Nancy? I agree with you with me, Jennifer 710 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: Zikowski from heavy dot com. Take a listen to the 711 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,040 Speaker 1: biological children of this fertility doctor. I don't even want 712 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,440 Speaker 1: to call him a doctor, as they speak out on 713 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: w t h R Channel thirteen. It's it's devastating. It's 714 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,839 Speaker 1: changed my entire life. I've tried. I cry every day 715 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 1: the best two months. To know that a doctor took 716 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: advantage of that situation is unimaginal. I wouldn't even watch 717 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: this on my worst never Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing 718 00:47:49,520 --> 00:55:09,800 Speaker 1: off asssssssssssssssssss