WEBVTT - Netflix’s “Unknown Number, The High School Catfish” Had Us REELING 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:06.160 Hey, folks, it is the evening of Monday, September eighth, 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.800 as we record this, and what the actual hell? We 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:14.800 just watched the number one trending show on Netflix. It's 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:21.840 called Unknown Number the High School Catfish. Our mouths dropped 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:26.280 open for pretty much the entire hour and a half 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:32.560 of this documentary, and Roeboch has been absolutely chomping at 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:37.640 the bit to get everything off her chest and off 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.320 her mind and spirit about what we just saw. And 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:46.160 I told her, wait, don't do it until we hit record. Well, folks, 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.640 we just hit record, and now welcome to this episode 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.479 of Amy and TJ. First reaction, before we even explain 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.280 anything about this documentary, you tell me how you feel. 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:07.080 Appalled, disgusted, shocked, and just in disbelief. I'm in disbelief 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:07.840 of what I saw. 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:10.560 Disbelief is a good one. Can't believe what we saw, 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.040 and now I'm looking I have softened. Shock and disbelief 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:22.680 was first. I have a difficult time getting to anger 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.960 just yet. And so let's get into all of that. Folks. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:28.600 If you don't know what this thing is about, we 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:30.680 want to give you a heads up. We're not going 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.600 to give a spoiler, and if we do. We're going 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:35.959 to give your heads up. We're not going to give 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.520 a spoiler before what the next five minutes, I should say, 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:41.240 as we set it up, but we're gonna have to 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:43.959 talk about the reveal and what this story is. It's 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.039 out there and it's public. We just in case you 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.200 haven't seen it and wanted to, we at least want 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:50.000 to give your heads up before we tell you about 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:51.040 what went down. Is that fair? 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.640 I would say, we couldn't do a proper podcast without 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.800 discussing what the twist is or what the true This 0:01:57.840 --> 0:01:59.720 isn't even a script, that's the thing. It's not a 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.160 movie script. This is real life. It's always been said 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:07.080 truth is stranger than fiction. This documentary is proof. If 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.280 you ever didn't believe it, this documentary is proof. And 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:12.919 so we're gonna have to give the spoiler. So if 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.640 you haven't seen it, I would say, put us on pause, 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:19.560 go watch the Netflix documentary, and then come back and 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:21.920 see if you want to join in on this, because 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.360 I guarantee you you're gonna have feelings. 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.919 Yes, And as you listen along here, we promise we 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.280 will give you a heads up before we give the 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.240 thing or anything away. But just to set it up 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.920 here robes is, I mean the teas and the trailer 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:37.760 and what this is set up as a group of 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:42.200 friends begin getting harassed from an unknown number and it 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.440 is relentless. And so this goes along and follows the 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.240 story investigation what happens to these kids until the ultimate 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:49.560 reveal of what happens. 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.040 Yeah, and I have to give Netflix so many kudos 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.520 because they really did an artful job in telling a story. 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:01.320 So you actually are you're actually alone long for the 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.440 horror of it. Where it builds, you start to see 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.520 the initial texts and then there's a little bit of 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.440 a lull and then they come back. And when they 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.520 come back, they're relentless. They're ferocious, they're unending. Sometimes there's 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:19.639 fifty texts a day of just hardcore bullying that actually 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:26.440 crescendos into telling the victims, the recipients of these texts 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.960 to go kill themselves. Like it gets that graphic and 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:30.680 that disturbing. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:33.200 You reminded me. I'm still not quite sure the ages 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:34.280 they were what grade at. 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.120 The time, ninth grade, So we're talking fourteen thirteen, fourteen 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:37.680 years old. 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.880 Okay, And this is in Bill City, Michigan, and this 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:41.800 happened twenty two. 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:43.280 Yeah, within the last few years. 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.480 Yeah, this is so Yeah, this is all very current. 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:46.960 The kids are still in high school. 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.000 Yes, there you go. The kids are still in high school. 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:50.280 And they did talk to all the kids, but it 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.680 revolved around Owen and Lauren, these two youngins who were 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:55.520 kind of sweet on each other and started dating, and 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.680 then Owen started getting these messages from an unknown number. 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:03.240 Essentially Owen and Lauren started getting these messages essentially trying 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.120 to break them up. Now it's hard, and I meant 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.920 to write some down, it's hard to give an accurate 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.640 description of what and just how horrible these messages were. 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.160 You put it in context that it's coming to a 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:21.279 thirteen year old, it's hard to understand the things that 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.279 were being said to these children. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.400 They were very sexually graphic. Yes, for even someone who 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.599 is in their twenties, it was sexually graphic. These are kids. Yes, 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.840 I've felt that I was like, WHOA and these kids? 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.920 If I had been their age, I wouldn't have even 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:40.800 known some of what the texts were, what they were 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.240 referring to, that's how sexually graphic they were. But it 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.320 all was this kind of obsession with Owen, and then 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.039 because he was with his girlfriend from seventh grade, Lauren, 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:56.120 then all of the anger and vitriol and just unbelievably, 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:01.680 just horrible, horrible things were being said to Lauren, like 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.600 calling her a skank, and because she was thin, like 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.680 making fun of her flat ass, and her just her 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.400 unwillingness to be sexual with her boyfriend, just all the 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:17.040 things that girls are vulnerable and embarrassed about at that 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:19.760 age in ninth grade, when you're becoming a woman, and 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.880 to have someone texting you telling you you're not sexy 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.680 and you don't have the body, and you and you're 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.680 a skank, and you dress provocatively but you won't give 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.279 it up, and just all the things that already girls 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.239 are insecure about. To have somebody just zeroing and honing 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.360 in on that is just awful. 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.159 Again, thirteen year old, all of these kids are, and 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.520 several of them started getting these messages from unknown numbers. 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:45.800 To your point about Lauren, this is probably one of 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.359 the saddest things is that this unknown number had no 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.320 idea who it was, where was coming from, actually had 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:53.560 an impact on how she felt about herself, and she 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.240 started changing the way. 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.880 She dressed and how she felt about herself. She talked 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.800 about having thoughts of suicide. Owen talked about having thoughts oficide. 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:07.280 Power of words in messages coming through a cell phone, 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.600 it's it's horrific to see what happened. So the kids 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.080 then start doing their own investigation trying to figure it out. 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:18.279 The police get involved, parents get involved, everybody gets involved, 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.800 so everybody's trying to track it down. They can't track 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.440 down who it is necessarily so easily, because they're using 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.839 some kind of technology that allows it to look like 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.280 it's coming from a different cell phone or different phone 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:31.960 numbers every single time. So it's not that simple until 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.160 they finally get what was the FBI involved and they 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:36.400 do proper research going. 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.920 Correct, But before is it, Before the FBI got involved, 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.359 the person who was sending these messages was clever enough 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.480 to start sending people out on wild goose chases, so 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.120 creating texts that made it seem as though another student 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:53.800 was the bully or another student was the bully, So 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:56.880 then other students were getting involved because they were being accused, 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.320 and then their lives were unraveling because then they looked 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:04.240 like they were the culprit and it wasn't true, and yes, 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.840 once the FBI got involved, they were able to track 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.040 down IP numbers basically IP addresses. Excuse me, and. 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.360 Let's jump on that. But I wanted to your point. 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:17.360 I didn't make this point enough about what you just said. 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:25.800 How Yes, this caused friendships to break down forever, this 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:31.840 caused marriages to end, Families were split, all because somebody 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:37.520 unknown number sending negative, nasty, constant bullying via. 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.840 Tech constant like fifty texts a day, constantly your full 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:41.520 time job. 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:43.880 Yes, so, yes, this is where we are to pick 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.280 up on what you're saying. Now, the FBI gets involved 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.360 and they start trying to track down IP addresses and 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:51.760 what phone numbers are. 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.000 Attached for mere so the people who the victims who 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:59.360 were receiving all of these unwanted and horrific tax Owen 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:02.520 actually gave his phone. This is kind of what broke 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:04.680 the case wide open. Gave his phone to the FBI, 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.720 who then did a full extraction, is that what they 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.800 called it. And they were able to look at all 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.560 of the texts that came in, and there were plenty 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.400 to look at, and they were able to cross reference 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.720 even though they were using this app or whatever that 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.640 created different numbers. There was still an underlying number attached 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.680 to two different IP addresses, and when you find out 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.440 what was it, about two thirds maybe three quarters of 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.040 the way through the documentary you find out the number 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.920 that is finally cross referenced, because they went through all 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.520 the students and all the potential found because the information 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.760 that by the way, this harassmer, this bully was using, 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.880 was referencing things that were said, even a picture that 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.920 only someone who was intimate in a friend group or 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.760 in a family unit could possibly have known. So they 0:08:57.840 --> 0:08:59.880 knew that was what was so creepy about it. It 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:03.640 wasn't like some stranger from Afar. It was somebody who 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:08.520 intimately knew these characters. So they were cross referencing numbers, 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:09.000 you know. 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.199 And they made a very good point. I'm not sure 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.200 where you would have come down on this. As a parent, 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:16.400 I said, that is really smart. When they were telling them, hey, 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.840 just get your kids' numbers cut off, get new phones, 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.160 new numbers, and all of this will go away. And 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.720 the parents said, no, we actually want to figure this out. 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.280 We want to figure out who this is because clearly 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:29.480 it's somebody in our circle. 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.720 This person is in our homes this person is being 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.400 invited to those family gatherings. This person is a part 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.040 of our inner circle, and how could we ever trust 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.480 our inner circle again if we don't know who this is. 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.120 So they and they build us up Robes very dramatically. 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:45.840 And this is where now, folks will tell you if 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:47.880 you haven't seen and you want to wait for the 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.480 big reveal, this is where the spoiler is going to 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:52.319 come in. So we'll let you know. We are about 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.200 to go ahead and discuss. I guess really the more 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:57.679 the meat and the reveal of this, but Robes it 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:02.000 was as we were watching said the first third two 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.000 thirds of it, we of course we had guesses about 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.440 who it's going to be, and it's probably going to 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.360 be that, and we said early on it's probably an adult. 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:12.800 So yway, some of the things they said, you know what, 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.839 that's probably got to be the shocker part of this. 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.520 This was the biggest possible shocker of anybody that could 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:21.480 have been the culprit. 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.720 Yes, because the poor girl Lauren who was being berated 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:30.200 and being called every name in the book, including telling 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.800 Lauren to go kill herself. And I'm really like not 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:40.520 even giving the worst of the quotes, those texts were 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:47.599 coming from her own mother. So Lauren's mother, Kendra, ultimately 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:53.800 was the person who was behind the texts. These graphic, horrific, 0:10:54.360 --> 0:11:01.680 sexual bullying, and frankly threatening texts all were coming from 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:08.960 her own mother. And then the question becomes why why. 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.720 So as you say it and you sit here anyone 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.800 listening if you want, you struggle to come up with 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.680 the why. And so again, a very good part of 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:22.280 the documentary is that Netflix got the bodycam footage of 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.200 when the officer went in there and they had to 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.000 confront her in her home and had to bring her 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.000 daughter in as well to see all this breakdown. You see, 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.920 I'm not sure what comes over her when she knew 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:36.560 the gig was up. She immediately confessed and there wasn't 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.000 much of an emotional reaction, babe. 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:43.000 That was what freaked me out. The moment she actually 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:47.720 had no she had zero emotion, and it the little 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.800 bit you might have seen was so minuscule. It would 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:55.720 be like telling me that a distant second cousin had 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.839 passed like. There was almost no emotion that crossed over 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:03.200 her face when she realized that she was caught, and 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.480 her biggest thing was, I don't want Lauren to know. 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.360 Is everyone going to know? That was what she cared about, 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.040 and the officer was like, pretty sure, there's no way 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.800 to avoid that, and she kind of was like okay, 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.960 literally knowing what she had been doing for a year 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.440 and a half, two years almost at that point, just 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.600 harassing two young kids to the point where they both 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:32.120 considered suicide, and she had zero emotion when she got 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.679 caught as a mom, as a wife, and there were 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:39.120 more lies her whole She had a whole other web 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:42.360 of lies that she was selling her husband in addition 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.360 to selling this all to her daughter to be the 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.760 comforter in chief, to be that mom who was there 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.480 for her daughter who was being bullied, because she was 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.880 going to be the comforter when she was the actual 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.400 one who was inflicting the pain. This is a. 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.640 Look, this is a shocking story. And it's easy to mock. 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:07.120 It's easy to it's easy to beate, it's easy to 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.680 attack this woman and scratch your heads. Certainly from a parent. 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:12.480 I know a lot of you listening now, if you've 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:17.120 watched it already, you have the same question, why why why? 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.480 It makes no sense? Why? Okay? If she was sweet 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.959 on the boy, fine, send a couple of things, try 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:30.160 to break them up. Why are you constantly harassing your 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:34.880 daughter to the point she is wanting to consider suicide 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:41.600 and keeping that up for months and months and months. Well, folks, 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.120 stay here, because next we are going to tell you 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.439 what the mom says her logic is for doing, and 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.240 you decide whether or not you buy it or not 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.240 that this woman desperately needs help. 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.880 Welcome back to Amy and TG where we are talking 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.840 about Unknown Number, the High School Catfish. It is the 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:16.280 number one movie on Netflix. We just finished watching it 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.160 and we are still reeling. You are actually listening, as 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:23.080 I know you all know, to two horror movie fanatics. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.360 We love thrillers, We love horror movies. We love plot twist, 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.760 we love a good script with great writing. I have 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:34.440 to say, this documentary, this thing that actually happened in 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.920 a small town in Michigan, had me reeling in a 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.400 way that very few horror movies can even accomplish. Where 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:45.280 I I we usually can figure out who probably the 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.720 killer might be, and it's not that shock. This just 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.160 shook me. I was shocked. 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.280 You know you you bring up the horror movie thing 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.160 and let me see you made me think of it 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.280 just now. There's some horror movies at the end that 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.520 you get the twist and you go, that's so stupid, 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:06.400 that doesn't make sense, that would never actually happened. That 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.680 was the twist at the end of this, like, of 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.520 course it's not the mom. That's dumb. 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.880 Actually, Babe. When they started, I thought they were breadcrumbing 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.320 us and there was gonna be some other twist when 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.520 it seemed as though all of the evidence pointed to 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.920 Lauren's mom, Kendra, and you and I looked at each other. 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:26.760 We said, there's more like, there's no way it's her, 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.000 Like they're just they're just they're making us think it's Kendra, 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.880 but it's not actually Kendra. That's much. We didn't believe 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:34.280 it when they started setting it up, and then it 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:38.800 wasn't until Kendra herself fully admits it and we thought, 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.600 oh my god, this actually is what happened. 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.720 Like, I challenge you to watch this without like literally 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.280 your jaw dropping, literally your jaw will drop in watching 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.600 and like you said, Rob, this is something you cannot 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.680 make up. This is a true story of what happened. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.680 Now the mom, of course, she's a part of the documentary. 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.240 Now that's another brilliant part of this, and that the 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.280 first again, third to two thirds and where they're explaining 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:09.640 and setting up the story Kendra, we don't know she's 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.720 the actual culprit. They have her as a part of 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:15.680 the documentary, just as a concerned parent. 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:20.440 So you really think that she's a part of the solution, yes, 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.080 or at least trying to find a solution for her daughter. 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.840 And she seems like that carrying, doting mom who wants 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.400 to figure out who's doing this to her poor child. 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:33.800 And so that also creates just this total bombshell of 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.680 a moment when you realize that Kendra actually is the 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:41.880 person behind all of the hate. And look, when we're 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.320 looking for the why, because that's of course the next 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.160 thing you think, how could a mom do this? But 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.240 why would a mom do this? And yes, okay, fine, 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.200 she might have been obsessed with Owen, she might have 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.800 had some weird fantasy about him, but that still doesn't 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.680 explain how cruel she was to her daughter. She still 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.400 could have done something to break them up. And once 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.640 she broke them up, it didn't end. She just kept 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.199 on with her daughter in such a cruel fashion. And 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:13.399 when we heard from the investigators, the detectives and their theory. 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:18.680 All of a sudden, a light bulb went off, Munchausen, where, Look, 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.959 I'm only familiar with this as some people are. I 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:23.880 did the Gypsy Rose case back in the day, where 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.280 you have a mom who tries to make her daughter 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.360 or her child sick so that she then gets sympathy, 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.040 but they're actually causing their child to be physically unwell 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.840 by either poisoning them slowly or whatever. But it's all 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:40.080 about getting attention and being the caregiver in chief, basically, 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.480 where you're needed and you're wanted and you're getting attention. 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:47.280 So the theory is that perhaps Kendra did this so 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.480 that she then could be there for her daughter and 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.480 forged this beautiful bond in connection at a time when 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:55.840 we know our teenage daughters kind of drift off and 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:57.640 they have boyfriends and friends, and they go to high 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:01.000 school and suddenly mom isn't as important. So if she's 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.520 being bullied, who's she going to run to? Her mom? 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:08.680 So how crazy is it that Kendra would be bullying 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.560 her daughter only to be able to be the one 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.440 to comfort her when she came home. 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:18.359 Okay, Munchausen syndrome. That's she didn't mention it. I think 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.000 other she mention, and others did mention that as a possibility. 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:29.199 What she mentioned essentially is that she was ill, she 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.400 didn't know how much help she needed, she hadn't dealt 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.560 with trauma from her past. She does at some point 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.320 talk about she had been raped at the age of seventeen, 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.560 and some of that trauma she has not and had 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.560 not dealt with. She talked about the possibility that she 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:44.920 was seeing herself and some of the negativity she was 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.760 saying that she was too herself was too thin, she 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:49.960 had own issues with her own bodies. So some of 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.479 the messages she was sending to her daughter were almost 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:57.480 maybe even talking to herself. Do you I don't understand 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.359 as in no way. I didn't study the trauma and 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.320 what makes people behave in certain ways. But she explained 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.919 things about herself that I think. Maybe we talk to 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.399 a therapist they would say, Okay, I can see this, 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.600 I can see this, and I can see this. I 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.800 think this woman is complicated and I think she went 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:23.639 through something, But I just don't think you a normal 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.280 person does this. And I don't want to dismiss her 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:32.719 as just evil or a hateful woman. I don't know 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.200 what to label her ass I don't know what category 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.040 to put her in, but I'm trying to understand because 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.840 what she has done is so far. The messages again, 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.520 I don't think we're doing a good service, Robes, because 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:46.720 the message is so bad. 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.600 I actually am uncomfortable saying the messages out. Yes, and 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:52.480 I think anyone who's listening to this at this point 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:54.600 has watched it, so they know what we're talking. We 0:19:54.640 --> 0:20:00.080 don't even need to repeat them. But here's my I 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.960 appreciate what you just said, and I am as well, 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:09.560 trying to not be as judgmental as I want to 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:13.199 be because that was my reaction as a mom and 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:18.600 as a human, because I believe she must have I 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.240 got I hope in the sense in terms of a defense, 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.600 that she did go through something that created this version 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:29.000 of her. But I see a mom who wants to 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.119 be center of attention. I see a mom who is narcissistic. 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:34.879 I see a mom who doesn't care who she hurts 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.560 to get the attention or feed the desires she has. 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:42.040 And if anything, to project your pain and your trauma 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:44.680 onto your daughter, I don't think it's a natural thing. 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:46.680 I think we try to avoid it. We all mess 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:49.320 up our kids to some degree without realizing it. But 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.479 this was so intentional, This was so hurtful. This was 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:57.760 not done in a moment of passion or fury or frustration. 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:02.639 But this was done repeatedly, persistently, methodically, and to me, 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:05.359 that is what makes it so evil. And then to 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.120 justify it by saying, well, I had my own trauma. 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.639 It's I think she found aha moment where there is 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.159 some truth to that, and then tries to use that 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:19.399 to justify all of her atrocious behavior and to point 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:23.479 out the level of manipulation this poor girl, Lauren, and 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:25.119 you see her on the documentary. I think one of 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.280 the most heartbreaking things about it for me was to 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:30.320 hear Lauren talk about how she loves her mom so 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.160 much and wants to have a relationship with her. She's 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.600 desperate for her mom's love. There was some sort of 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:39.000 dynamic created over the years where there was this neediness 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.600 that Lauren needed Kendra, and Kendra needed Lauren to need her, 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.679 and when she saw Lauren slip away, she created a 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.480 bigger need for her. And somehow it's so sad Lauren 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:50.159 cannot break free from it. 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:52.920 No kin, that's I'm sure that's the way a lot 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:57.240 of people see it, and I'm not there. I think 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:00.440 there is something. As I watch, there was something very 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.119 loving about that mother and taking care of that child. 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:05.600 She loved how it made her feel to have Lauren 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:06.440 love her again. 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:10.560 I'm not going to put that on that woman from 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:14.040 that child's birth to she sent that first nasty message 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.360 is that that woman was never genuinely in love with 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:21.000 that child and a mother to that child. Now, I 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:25.879 also will acknowledge that there is something possibly that happened 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.520 to this woman that messed her up, sure mesked her 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:30.840 up real bad. And she kept she referred to and 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.960