WEBVTT - #70 Cayden 0:00:15.250 --> 0:00:24.050 Pushkin. What? 0:00:24.700 --> 0:00:26.940 Sorry, we were cut off. We didn't have a proper goodbye, 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:27.940 so I was just calling back. 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:28.760 We weren't. 0:00:28.780 --> 0:00:29.420 So take care. 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:30.380 We weren't cut off. 0:00:31.860 --> 0:00:33.920 Oh, you hung up on my face. 0:00:33.940 --> 0:00:35.260 Okay. Okay. Thank you. 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:37.350 Before you go, are you an innie or an outie? 0:00:38.210 --> 0:00:40.640 That's all. I'm asking because I was just going to 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:43.269 buy you a sweatshirt for Simchas Torah. All right, let's go. 0:00:43.349 --> 0:00:43.460 Oh, hi. 0:00:43.500 --> 0:00:44.570 How are you? 0:00:44.870 --> 0:00:46.450 Good to see you. 0:00:48.110 --> 0:00:50.649 It's very surprising to me to even see how polite 0:00:50.690 --> 0:00:53.610 you can be to other people. I am. 0:00:53.670 --> 0:00:54.310 I'm very polite. 0:00:54.490 --> 0:00:55.730 Why can't you be like that with me? 0:00:55.750 --> 0:00:57.020 I am. 0:01:03.940 --> 0:01:09.459 From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:18.770 Today's episode, Caden. Right after the break. 0:01:26.010 --> 0:01:26.290 Hi. 0:01:26.610 --> 0:01:27.530 Caden, hi. 0:01:27.770 --> 0:01:28.110 Hello. 0:01:28.870 --> 0:01:30.690 I think you're the first Caden I've met. 0:01:30.950 --> 0:01:33.150 You're the second Jonathan I've interacted with today. 0:01:33.170 --> 0:01:33.290 Oh. 0:01:34.330 --> 0:01:35.690 I have a student named Jonathan. 0:01:35.710 --> 0:01:41.230 Oh, our experiences are quite the opposite. Caden teaches eighth 0:01:41.270 --> 0:01:45.360 grade to students named Jonathan and possibly other names too. 0:01:46.060 --> 0:01:48.420 He's here to tell me a story about when he 0:01:48.460 --> 0:01:51.640 was in eighth grade. Back then, Caden was the kind 0:01:51.660 --> 0:01:55.020 of kid who ate lunch alone. He kept to himself 0:01:55.300 --> 0:01:58.380 and followed the rules. Even at his church youth group, 0:01:58.660 --> 0:02:01.620 the main social hub of his life, Caden remained on 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:05.710 the sidelines. It's in youth group that his story takes place. 0:02:06.530 --> 0:02:09.809 People at church were always like, wow, you'd be like 0:02:09.850 --> 0:02:14.239 a really good pastor. Like, you're really stoic, quiet. And 0:02:14.260 --> 0:02:16.220 I remember being like, I don't know, I think part 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.780 of being a pastor is you do have to speak. 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.579 If the meek did inherit the earth, Caden would have 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.840 been first in line. But when approached by the Lord 0:02:25.900 --> 0:02:28.660 with a quick claim to sign, Caden would have been 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:35.610 too shy to ask for a pen. In the summer 0:02:35.630 --> 0:02:39.100 of 2013, his church's youth group headed off for a 0:02:39.130 --> 0:02:42.680 mission trip to Oklahoma. They were meeting up with several 0:02:42.740 --> 0:02:45.720 other churches to help clean up after a recent tornado. 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:48.640 You were going there to do disaster relief? 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.600 Yes, which is funny in retrospect. It's like, what were 13, 0:02:52.580 --> 0:02:54.799 14-year-olds going to do? 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.080 When they got to the dorms where they'd be staying, 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.320 Caden's youth pastor pulled him aside. It was then that 0:03:02.340 --> 0:03:06.500 he told him about Andrew. Andrew was another kid on 0:03:06.540 --> 0:03:10.160 the trip. The pastor said Andrew was a little loud, 0:03:10.490 --> 0:03:14.190 a little chaotic, but maybe Caden could be a good influence. 0:03:15.210 --> 0:03:17.930 The pastor then informed Caden that for the duration of 0:03:17.970 --> 0:03:20.389 the trip, he'd be rooming with Andrew. 0:03:20.410 --> 0:03:24.549 I go into this room, and the kid's already there. 0:03:24.570 --> 0:03:27.050 And I'm like, oh my, we've been here for 10 minutes, 0:03:27.090 --> 0:03:30.940 and all your clothes are out and about. And then 0:03:30.980 --> 0:03:33.380 here's me, like, clinging to my bag. I'm like, I'm 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.900 scared to put it down. What if he rummages through 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.520 or something? Right. I mean, he was such a different 0:03:39.580 --> 0:03:44.030 personality than me. Just a mile a minute, flying with ideas. 0:03:44.550 --> 0:03:46.430 I remember he was, like, starting to do, like, a 0:03:46.450 --> 0:03:49.130 little workout in the room. Like, he was doing push-ups. 0:03:52.990 --> 0:03:58.060 While Andrew pushed floor, possibly while shirtless, Caden, fully shirted, 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.720 possibly even undershirted, slumped on the edge of the bed. 0:04:02.740 --> 0:04:05.820 As they settled in, Andrew found a box of tampons 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.480 that had been left behind. Pulling one out, he swung 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:13.090 it by the string like a lasso. Caden looked on 0:04:13.270 --> 0:04:17.250 in horror. How, he wondered, was he going to exert 0:04:17.370 --> 0:04:25.120 influence over Andrew? The next morning, they rose early and 0:04:25.159 --> 0:04:28.179 got to work, which mostly meant picking up garbage in 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:28.919 the height of summer. 0:04:28.940 --> 0:04:32.659 It was 90 degrees. It was really sweaty. I had 0:04:32.690 --> 0:04:35.109 to clean a porta potty, which was terrible. You have 0:04:35.150 --> 0:04:37.690 to really love God. I mean, we were out in 0:04:37.729 --> 0:04:40.310 the sun for hours and hours and hours. And I 0:04:40.330 --> 0:04:43.450 remember at some point we were taking a break near 0:04:43.510 --> 0:04:44.010 the van. 0:04:44.650 --> 0:04:46.869 Caden was sitting with some girls from his youth group. 0:04:46.890 --> 0:04:49.710 And they're like, hey, like, what's your roommate going on about? 0:04:50.339 --> 0:04:53.480 Caden looked over and saw Andrew holding court before a 0:04:53.500 --> 0:04:54.300 group of kids. 0:04:54.739 --> 0:04:56.700 He was just kind of going off about something. 0:04:57.359 --> 0:04:59.379 And the topic of his impromptu sermon? 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:06.529 He's like, I'm bisexual. I'm bisexual. And I remember that 0:05:06.589 --> 0:05:10.269 being the first time I'd ever heard someone say those 0:05:10.369 --> 0:05:13.909 words in real life. And I heard him say it, 0:05:14.049 --> 0:05:17.250 and I had this drop in my gut. 0:05:24.099 --> 0:05:28.059 Hearing Andrew just casually admit to something like that frightened Caden. 0:05:28.900 --> 0:05:31.080 I was so scared of it because I was starting 0:05:31.099 --> 0:05:35.789 to understand it in myself. I'd been questioning my own 0:05:35.869 --> 0:05:39.809 sexuality for a few years to that point. It was 0:05:39.969 --> 0:05:44.610 constantly top of mind, every day. Like, turn on incognito 0:05:44.669 --> 0:05:49.179 mode and take the early 2010's Am I Gay quiz 0:05:49.219 --> 0:05:53.450 from some random website and manipulating the answer so that 0:05:53.489 --> 0:05:56.029 way it said no, because we don't want that. 0:05:56.380 --> 0:05:58.839 And you would not voice this to anybody, any friends? 0:05:58.859 --> 0:06:03.520 I had never voiced this to anyone. We don't say that. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.119 It was a very conservative church environment. 0:06:06.900 --> 0:06:10.559 To illustrate, Caden shares an example from a couple years later. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.450 I remember when the same-sex marriage ruling came down in 2015. 0:06:15.450 --> 0:06:17.909 I went into church for the first time since that 0:06:17.950 --> 0:06:21.690 ruling came out. And I've never experienced this otherwise, but 0:06:21.729 --> 0:06:24.309 they refused to turn the lights on in the building 0:06:24.890 --> 0:06:28.529 because it was a day of mourning. Wow. This is, like, 0:06:29.289 --> 0:06:33.369 maybe not the ultimate sin, but it is up there high. 0:06:34.369 --> 0:06:36.829 Caden had learned that being queer was something you stuffed 0:06:36.849 --> 0:06:40.770 down and buried. It wasn't declared loudly nor proudly like 0:06:40.890 --> 0:06:45.650 Andrew had, especially not to people you barely knew, especially 0:06:45.669 --> 0:06:47.080 not on a church trip. 0:06:47.739 --> 0:06:51.099 And so I was so just like, How is he 0:06:51.179 --> 0:06:57.679 doing that? And why is he doing that? I remember 0:06:57.719 --> 0:07:01.570 that night we came back. I was so worried about 0:07:01.599 --> 0:07:05.029 betraying anything, of being curious, because that was another emotion. 0:07:05.669 --> 0:07:07.999 It's like when you see the scary animal at the zoo, 0:07:08.210 --> 0:07:09.810 but you want to get closer to the glass, but 0:07:09.830 --> 0:07:12.710 you never want to go past the glass. And I 0:07:12.770 --> 0:07:18.130 remember being back in the room, and he's like, I'm bisexual. 0:07:18.150 --> 0:07:22.980 I'm like, I've heard. I've heard. And at the time 0:07:23.020 --> 0:07:24.980 I was like, I really have, I have like every 0:07:25.020 --> 0:07:29.500 question under the sun and I refuse to ask any 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:29.999 of them. 0:07:31.220 --> 0:07:34.260 As the trip wore on though, a change occurred in Caden. 0:07:34.980 --> 0:07:39.869 Rather than Caden tamping down Andrew, Andrew was tamping up Caden. 0:07:40.710 --> 0:07:43.170 When Andrew dropped to the floor to do his pushups, 0:07:43.550 --> 0:07:47.160 Caden would do pushups too. He'd also join Andrew on 0:07:47.179 --> 0:07:51.840 his explorations of the dorms, even sneaking into off-limits areas 0:07:51.900 --> 0:07:54.670 of the building and out to the parking lot at night. 0:07:55.550 --> 0:07:59.170 For someone as sheltered as Caden, it felt taboo and exciting. 0:08:00.110 --> 0:08:01.890 Andrew was like a passkey. 0:08:01.910 --> 0:08:08.670 I remember warming up to him in a way that 0:08:08.690 --> 0:08:11.670 I couldn't admit to anyone. I started to understand of 0:08:11.690 --> 0:08:14.640 him to be such a cooler person. And so throughout 0:08:14.700 --> 0:08:16.920 the week, the more we talked, the more I was 0:08:16.940 --> 0:08:20.080 just like, I wonder what that would be like to 0:08:20.100 --> 0:08:21.360 be him for a moment. 0:08:28.140 --> 0:08:30.340 On the last day of the trip, everyone said their 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.770 goodbyes and exchanged phone numbers. Did you keep in touch 0:08:33.810 --> 0:08:34.850 with Andrew after that? 0:08:35.610 --> 0:08:39.569 So I didn't have a phone at the time, and 0:08:39.590 --> 0:08:41.370 I was borrowing my mom's cell phone. 0:08:42.250 --> 0:08:45.710 So a week later, when Caden's mom started getting texts 0:08:45.820 --> 0:08:48.640 from someone named Andrew, she was confused. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.920 She was like, who's texting me? Who's this person? 0:08:52.680 --> 0:08:56.060 And Caden, because he felt he couldn't say anything, just 0:08:56.160 --> 0:09:00.090 watched as his mother deleted the contact. But in the 0:09:00.130 --> 0:09:03.870 months to come, he kept thinking about Andrew, thinking about 0:09:03.910 --> 0:09:06.209 what it would feel like to be so comfortable in 0:09:06.230 --> 0:09:10.350 your own skin. For Caden, someone who felt embarrassed by 0:09:10.390 --> 0:09:14.710 his mere existence, This was a big, almost impossible thought. 0:09:21.380 --> 0:09:24.179 The following year, Caden got his own phone, and while 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.120 texting a friend one day, he thought back to Andrew. 0:09:27.950 --> 0:09:30.870 Andrew had been able to come out to strangers, so 0:09:30.890 --> 0:09:32.830 Caden should at least be able to come out to 0:09:32.870 --> 0:09:35.170 a friend. And that's what he did. 0:09:36.150 --> 0:09:36.570 Sort of. 0:09:37.330 --> 0:09:39.920 He texted his friend, I'm G. 0:09:39.940 --> 0:09:43.100 And then he was like... you're what? Like, I don't 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:44.400 know what that means. I'm like, let me give you 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.540 the second letter. And then finally I'm like, oh shoot, 0:09:47.560 --> 0:09:50.410 this is a really short word. And then I remember 0:09:50.450 --> 0:09:54.050 being like, well, screw it, like Andrew did. And I sent, 0:09:54.990 --> 0:09:55.710 I'm gay. 0:09:56.430 --> 0:09:58.750 And how was it received by your friend? 0:09:59.110 --> 0:10:01.510 Like the best I could ask for. Oh, that's cool. 0:10:01.700 --> 0:10:05.660 I remember being like, okay, like I did what Andrew 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:11.070 did in less of an outburst-y way. He kind of 0:10:11.090 --> 0:10:13.830 set me up to be like, well, if he can 0:10:13.870 --> 0:10:16.310 do it in his way, then I can do it 0:10:16.350 --> 0:10:23.550 in my way. And then I did. And then the 0:10:23.610 --> 0:10:25.370 next time when I came out to more friends when 0:10:25.390 --> 0:10:28.970 I was 15, a year later, like, Every time, when 0:10:29.010 --> 0:10:32.940 I was 16, to my parents, 17, like, kept going back, well, like, 0:10:33.470 --> 0:10:34.080 Andrew did it. 0:10:34.230 --> 0:10:34.560 Wow. 0:10:34.740 --> 0:10:37.000 If he did it, and then, so I did it again, 0:10:37.020 --> 0:10:37.880 and again. 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.360 But there's one person Cadence always wanted to come out 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:46.180 to that he's not been able to. His inspiration, Andrew. 0:10:47.100 --> 0:10:49.670 The problem is, he's never been able to find him. 0:10:50.390 --> 0:10:52.890 I'd want to just say thank you, because I think... 0:10:54.070 --> 0:10:59.980 I was so isolated, repressed, quiet, and I didn't know 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:05.480 an escape hatch. And he didn't even provide an escape hatch. 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:07.520 He just provided like an open field of like, you 0:11:07.570 --> 0:11:09.290 can just go and do that. 0:11:10.410 --> 0:11:14.130 Thirteen years later, and Caden is in his mid-twenties. He's 0:11:14.170 --> 0:11:16.750 left the church and gone from being the quiet kid 0:11:17.090 --> 0:11:20.930 to someone who strikes up long conversations with strangers. And 0:11:20.970 --> 0:11:23.209 if he's been able to get to that place, he 0:11:23.250 --> 0:11:25.410 can only imagine where Andrew has gotten. 0:11:25.990 --> 0:11:30.870 Who could he be now? I'd love to know where 0:11:31.230 --> 0:11:34.110 he ended up. I hope I didn't influence him the 0:11:34.150 --> 0:11:38.880 wrong way, like a Freaky Friday situation. He's on a 0:11:39.130 --> 0:11:43.200 Christian broadcast recording talking about how I influenced him to 0:11:43.220 --> 0:11:45.720 be stoic and repressive. 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.160 After the break, we find out. 0:11:50.890 --> 0:11:55.310 This is, like, every, like, homophobic parent family's worst fear is, like, 0:11:55.350 --> 0:12:20.850 you go on the church trip and you come back gay. Caden? Caden? Howdy. 0:12:21.490 --> 0:12:23.590 Are those overalls or coveralls? 0:12:24.180 --> 0:12:28.500 They are overalls. It's overall Friday because I'm over it all. 0:12:28.980 --> 0:12:30.840 Hey, nice. 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:32.960 The kids say I'm a bit of a poser with them. 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:33.720 They're like... Why? 0:12:34.100 --> 0:12:36.300 Oh, because you don't actually work with your hands. 0:12:36.660 --> 0:12:38.840 I don't need overalls. It's just the aesthetic. 0:12:39.260 --> 0:12:43.700 Sure. So, yeah, what's been going on since we last spoke? 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:49.620 Yeah, so nothing and then suddenly something. 0:12:50.670 --> 0:12:53.450 It's been several months since Caden and I last spoke. 0:12:54.190 --> 0:12:57.930 In the meantime, he's taken the lead on Project Find Andrew. 0:12:57.950 --> 0:13:00.790 I'd suggest that he start by reaching out to his 0:13:00.850 --> 0:13:04.350 old youth pastor. And when that didn't bear fruit, Caden 0:13:04.390 --> 0:13:07.250 just kept going, reaching out to a chain of different 0:13:07.290 --> 0:13:11.050 pastors at different churches, hoping to find someone who knew 0:13:11.250 --> 0:13:15.110 Andrew back then. But it was all dead ends. Until 0:13:15.210 --> 0:13:18.210 one day, when Caden got a message from Andrew's old 0:13:18.250 --> 0:13:22.410 youth pastor. And the message contained Andrew's full name and 0:13:22.470 --> 0:13:23.610 contact information. 0:13:24.130 --> 0:13:26.130 I was really excited and I was like overwhelmed. I 0:13:26.150 --> 0:13:28.450 was like, I didn't want to like reach out right 0:13:28.490 --> 0:13:31.890 away because I was like, it is later in the evening. 0:13:32.070 --> 0:13:34.429 So I did naturally was like, I wonder if I 0:13:34.450 --> 0:13:37.250 can find him on social media. I scrolled through like 0:13:37.250 --> 0:13:41.130 30 different Facebook pages and I found his Facebook of Andrew. 0:13:41.150 --> 0:13:46.370 And this is where a problem arose. A freaky problem. 0:13:47.090 --> 0:13:51.090 Just kind of getting the sense that there's a chance 0:13:51.150 --> 0:13:54.790 that this person I've built in my memory doesn't necessarily 0:13:54.830 --> 0:13:56.809 reflect a current reality. 0:13:56.830 --> 0:14:06.760 The first thing Caden noted was Andrew's profile photo. 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.020 Let me pull up his picture. Okay. Because I think 0:14:10.060 --> 0:14:11.840 there's this like visual cue of like. 0:14:12.660 --> 0:14:17.340 Oh, he looks like Mr. Straight Guy. Yeah. He's got 0:14:17.380 --> 0:14:21.540 a backwards baseball cap. He's got, Shades hanging off his t-shirt. 0:14:21.780 --> 0:14:23.760 He's got his foot up on a semi? 0:14:24.370 --> 0:14:26.290 Like a truck? It's like a plane. 0:14:26.310 --> 0:14:30.170 Oh, it's an airplane. But it wasn't just the hat, 0:14:30.310 --> 0:14:34.650 the airplane, nor the foot on the airplane. Andrew's profile 0:14:34.770 --> 0:14:37.110 was full of memes. Like this one. 0:14:37.700 --> 0:14:41.460 Don't gay people realize that they actually need straight people 0:14:41.820 --> 0:14:46.280 and not the other way around? And I was like, whoa. Whoa. 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:48.610 Oh, interesting. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:56.160 Okay, okay. It's like that classic homophobia of gay people exist, maybe. 0:14:57.140 --> 0:14:59.280 And if they do, it's because it's straight people. You 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.600 can't have two gay people make a straight person. They 0:15:02.620 --> 0:15:03.700 can't reproduce. 0:15:04.740 --> 0:15:07.540 Caden grew up hearing this kind of thing, but he 0:15:07.580 --> 0:15:09.240 didn't expect to hear it from Andrew. 0:15:09.260 --> 0:15:13.400 I actually just found this one. He has a meme 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.190 on here that says, straight pride. It's natural. It's worked 0:15:17.210 --> 0:15:19.350 for thousands of years and you can make babies. 0:15:22.730 --> 0:15:24.710 The way that you described him back then, I thought 0:15:24.790 --> 0:15:28.310 like he was going to be on the top echelon 0:15:28.610 --> 0:15:32.270 of like the main float of a pride parade or something. 0:15:32.530 --> 0:15:33.930 Same. I would have expected that. 0:15:35.410 --> 0:15:39.450 Caden's gone from feeling excited to meet Andrew to feeling apprehensive, 0:15:40.110 --> 0:15:43.410 especially apprehensive given the moment we're living through now. 0:15:43.970 --> 0:15:47.730 From, like, 2015 to 2017, like, there was, like, this 0:15:47.890 --> 0:15:52.050 upward trajectory, so it seemed culturally, of, like, same-sex marriage and, like, 0:15:52.850 --> 0:15:56.250 I think people sometimes forget, like, Donald Trump, when asked about, like, 0:15:56.290 --> 0:16:00.000 transgender bathrooms, did not care about it. I think it 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:01.960 was Caitlyn Jenner. He was like, she can use the 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.600 women's restroom. There was that moment where you could be 0:16:05.780 --> 0:16:10.160 out and expressive and the culture had your back. Even 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.840 if individuals didn't, like, the culture did. And I think, uh, 0:16:14.230 --> 0:16:18.010 That's something we've seen a shift on. Being out is 0:16:18.090 --> 0:16:20.330 considered a little bit radical again. 0:16:24.770 --> 0:16:28.790 Because of that shift, Caden finds himself more guarded. He 0:16:28.830 --> 0:16:31.410 doesn't talk about being gay at the public school where 0:16:31.430 --> 0:16:34.570 he teaches. And in the emails he sent to churches 0:16:34.650 --> 0:16:37.810 during his search for Andrew, he hedged in his language. 0:16:38.590 --> 0:16:41.370 Instead of saying, I want to find Andrew because he 0:16:41.420 --> 0:16:44.400 helped me come out, he instead said, I want to 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.700 find Andrew because he made a positive impact. He was 0:16:47.740 --> 0:16:50.670 a light. But that isn't the way he wants to 0:16:50.710 --> 0:16:54.490 talk to Andrew. The problem is, though, he's not sure 0:16:54.590 --> 0:16:57.870 who Andrew has become. It's like Caden wants to thank 0:16:57.930 --> 0:17:00.870 the young Andrew, but to do that, he'll have to 0:17:00.910 --> 0:17:04.430 talk to adult Andrew, and he's not sure who that is. 0:17:04.450 --> 0:17:10.850 I also don't want to amplify his homophobia, um, I 0:17:10.889 --> 0:17:13.569 don't necessarily want to say like, hey, that thing that 0:17:13.590 --> 0:17:15.970 you dislike, you made me that way and like lead 0:17:15.990 --> 0:17:23.510 him on a further path of like resentment. I think 0:17:23.530 --> 0:17:26.590 it'd be helpful to have someone else just reach out. 0:17:27.109 --> 0:17:30.990 So that way, if it feels like, oh, like this 0:17:31.030 --> 0:17:33.869 is someone who you probably don't want, like just someone 0:17:33.889 --> 0:17:36.959 who can help facilitate, that would be really appreciated. 0:17:38.500 --> 0:17:42.520 I'm eager to finally make myself useful, since while Caden 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.239 was searching for Andrew, I was spending the bulk of 0:17:45.300 --> 0:17:49.489 my time Googling, what's an overall Friday? Great work. I 0:17:49.530 --> 0:17:51.030 didn't know that we were going to find him. I mean, 0:17:51.250 --> 0:17:53.710 Andrew did not seem to be a lot to go by. 0:17:54.350 --> 0:17:55.450 But now he's here. 0:17:56.149 --> 0:17:59.209 Now he's here. He's queer. Maybe, maybe not. 0:18:03.980 --> 0:18:05.600 We'll see. We will see. 0:18:22.869 --> 0:18:27.239 When I go to Andrew's confusing, homophobic, meme-filled Facebook page 0:18:27.300 --> 0:18:30.960 to message him, I make a discovery. Linked to his 0:18:31.020 --> 0:18:35.920 Facebook page is his fiancée' s page. And on his fiancée' s page, 0:18:36.260 --> 0:18:40.150 her profile picture is framed by the pride flag. There 0:18:40.189 --> 0:18:42.949 are even photos of her and Andrew together, framed in 0:18:42.990 --> 0:18:47.610 rainbow colors. What in the name of Francis Ethel Gumm 0:18:47.830 --> 0:18:53.640 is going on here? While the discovery further baffles me, 0:18:54.199 --> 0:18:57.320 it does allay some of my concerns about Andrew's views. 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.930 And so, I message Andrew. And after some back and forth, 0:19:02.250 --> 0:19:05.249 he and I finally speak on the phone. I quickly 0:19:05.310 --> 0:19:08.769 learn that Andrew is a man of few words. When 0:19:08.810 --> 0:19:11.429 I ask whether he remembers going on that mission trip 0:19:11.470 --> 0:19:15.499 to Oklahoma, he says, yes. When I ask if he 0:19:15.540 --> 0:19:20.469 remembers the name Caden, he says, vaguely. I tell him 0:19:20.510 --> 0:19:25.209 how Caden remembers his brashness, his confidence. Yeah, he says, 0:19:25.770 --> 0:19:30.520 that sounds like me back then. Not now, I ask? Well, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:38.080 he says, rather cryptically, life teaches you lessons. Andrew seems 0:19:38.139 --> 0:19:40.800 a little knocked around by life, but he doesn't seem 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.919 like a threat. And since Caden still wants to talk 0:19:43.939 --> 0:19:46.119 to him, I decide we should give it a try. 0:19:47.179 --> 0:19:50.520 While my ability to make connections has been well documented, 0:19:51.020 --> 0:19:53.810 it's a less known fact that I'm equally adept at 0:19:53.869 --> 0:19:59.129 making disconnections. So I figure, if the whole thing goes sideways... 0:19:59.220 --> 0:20:01.700 I can always just disconnect the line. 0:20:02.740 --> 0:20:03.800 Caden? Howdy. 0:20:04.189 --> 0:20:08.010 Hey, how are you? All right, so Andrew's standing by. 0:20:08.030 --> 0:20:08.109 Okay. 0:20:09.330 --> 0:20:14.150 I will bring up the stuff about his bisexuality. 0:20:14.169 --> 0:20:14.649 Okay. 0:20:14.830 --> 0:20:15.950 So that you don't have to. 0:20:16.350 --> 0:20:16.810 Perfect. 0:20:18.260 --> 0:20:21.830 But how does one tactfully bring up such things? Were 0:20:21.850 --> 0:20:25.889 you once bisexual? Are you still? And by the way, 0:20:26.510 --> 0:20:30.889 do you dislike gay people? All right, let's, uh, let's 0:20:30.929 --> 0:20:31.609 see Andrew. 0:20:31.629 --> 0:20:32.510 Okay. 0:20:33.459 --> 0:20:37.519 And so, I add Andrew to the video call. Andrew? 0:20:37.540 --> 0:20:39.840 Hey, Jonathan, how are you doing today? 0:20:40.899 --> 0:20:44.240 Andrew is lounging on a couch. His beard is cut short, 0:20:44.580 --> 0:20:49.010 and his camp is pointed in a backwards... heterosexual direction. 0:20:50.209 --> 0:20:53.430 This is Caden. Do you guys, do you recognize each other? 0:20:53.449 --> 0:20:57.070 Ever so slightly. It's been quite some time. 0:20:57.550 --> 0:20:59.330 Yeah, it's been double the lifetime. 0:21:00.010 --> 0:21:01.760 What do you remember from that trip? 0:21:02.980 --> 0:21:04.740 There was a lot of walking in the sun looking 0:21:04.780 --> 0:21:05.780 for little bits of metal. 0:21:06.750 --> 0:21:09.500 I don't know if you remember in that field, there 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:11.139 was a part where they were like, look out for 0:21:11.179 --> 0:21:13.600 body parts. We've already done our check, but if you 0:21:13.639 --> 0:21:16.220 do see, raise your hand and we'll come get that 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.999 for you. I do. I do remember that, yeah. Yeah. 0:21:21.939 --> 0:21:25.199 Of course, I'm wondering if Andrew also remembers his speech 0:21:25.260 --> 0:21:28.119 by the van. So I tee up Caden to talk 0:21:28.159 --> 0:21:31.769 about the general impression Andrew made back then. My hope 0:21:32.030 --> 0:21:34.249 is that it might set the stage for the questions 0:21:34.330 --> 0:21:38.550 I want to ask. Caden, can you explain for Andrew, like, why, like, 0:21:38.570 --> 0:21:40.489 what it was about him at that time that really 0:21:40.530 --> 0:21:41.790 kind of was impactful? 0:21:42.810 --> 0:21:47.629 Yeah, I, at the time, I was, like, very quiet. 0:21:47.990 --> 0:21:51.509 And I remember, like, when we first started rooming together, 0:21:51.530 --> 0:21:53.830 I was like, oh, my gosh, like, you were, you 0:21:53.859 --> 0:21:57.240 had a lot of, like, opinions and, like, were just 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:01.520 very yourself and very confident. And I just really admired that. 0:22:02.439 --> 0:22:05.759 When Andrew responds... I can't help hearing his words in 0:22:05.780 --> 0:22:07.660 the context of his van speech. 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:11.119 I definitely wasn't afraid to express myself. Really didn't much 0:22:11.179 --> 0:22:12.780 care what people thought. 0:22:13.260 --> 0:22:15.990 Are there specific things that you could think of, like 0:22:17.909 --> 0:22:21.510 declaring your sexual orientation to a van full of strangers? 0:22:21.530 --> 0:22:27.520 I'm trying to think of any specifics, but I really 0:22:27.540 --> 0:22:30.560 didn't like being told to do stuff that I really 0:22:30.580 --> 0:22:33.899 didn't feel was right. And I had no problems whatsoever 0:22:34.540 --> 0:22:39.460 refusing to do that. Mind you, 13-year-old me didn't quite 0:22:39.500 --> 0:22:42.239 always know what was right. That's for certain. 0:22:42.659 --> 0:22:43.649 What are you thinking of? 0:22:43.659 --> 0:22:47.500 Oh, I'm not thinking of anything in particular. 0:22:51.419 --> 0:22:53.979 As I back and forth with Andrew, I fear I 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:58.040 might be inducing a minor panic attack in Caden. This 0:22:58.159 --> 0:23:05.429 is the sound of Caden's leg. Jiggling. For you to 0:23:05.470 --> 0:23:09.869 better appreciate his jiggling speed, I've amplified the sound, the 0:23:09.909 --> 0:23:18.429 way they do in documentaries about insects. So for Caden's sake, 0:23:18.790 --> 0:23:21.829 and the sake of his poor Elvis leg, I decide 0:23:21.859 --> 0:23:26.520 to just dive in and ask the question. Um, Andrew, 0:23:26.859 --> 0:23:28.680 I don't know how comfortable you are talking about this, 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:32.940 and if you're not, we... definitely don't have to go 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:36.550 in this direction, but one of the things that Caden 0:23:36.570 --> 0:23:41.469 specifically remembers was how you were able to talk openly 0:23:41.490 --> 0:23:46.979 at the time about being bisexual. Is that something that 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:48.179 you still identify with? 0:23:48.199 --> 0:23:50.939 No, it's not. Okay. 0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:52.960 Are you comfortable talking about this? 0:23:53.679 --> 0:23:55.659 Yeah. Yeah, we can go for it. Yeah? 0:23:55.800 --> 0:24:00.129 Oh, cool. And with that, Caden's leg comes to rest. 0:24:01.149 --> 0:24:05.729 Yeah, I was, like, very much closeted. I am gay, 0:24:06.209 --> 0:24:09.669 for the record. And I remember at one point you 0:24:09.709 --> 0:24:12.010 had said you were bisexual and you were just very 0:24:12.050 --> 0:24:15.170 confident about that. When I first came out to a friend, like, 0:24:15.629 --> 0:24:18.739 that was, like, your inspiration of, like, well, he's done it. 0:24:19.869 --> 0:24:22.710 Erring on the side of caution, Caden also adds. 0:24:23.109 --> 0:24:25.490 And, like, that you don't identify in that way now 0:24:25.550 --> 0:24:28.749 is totally okay because, like, at that moment it was 0:24:28.850 --> 0:24:35.890 such a, like, I didn't feel so alone. Good. 0:24:35.909 --> 0:24:41.249 Good is good. Andrew doesn't seem homophobic, but at the 0:24:41.270 --> 0:24:49.780 same time, what exactly does he seem? When I ask 0:24:49.919 --> 0:24:53.439