WEBVTT - Anti-Vax America: God’s Will 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.960 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:08.880 I'm Stephen Manicelli. I'm a journalist in Dallas and an 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.120 occasional contributor to Cool Zone Media. And this is episode 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.680 three of Anti VAXs America, a special five parts series 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.919 exploring anti vaccination beliefs in the United States through the 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.800 lens of the West Texas measles outbreak that has since 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.320 spread to several other states in the nation and claimed 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.360 three lives. One of those lives was the daughter of 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.559 a man named Peter, a member of a Mennonite community 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:38.160 in West Texas. For Peter, the death of his child 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.280 was basically God's will. He did an interview in which 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.320 he described that if it's God's plan, you know, that 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.360 is basically what he has to accept. But he also 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.600 continued to oppose vaccines, and his wife said that they 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.600 wouldn't recommend them to other parents. Now, Mennonites have been 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.040 singled out in a lot of the coverage about this 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.840 measles outbreak, given that the outbreak has centered in their 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:06.640 community in West Texas, and there's been a lot of 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:11.000 pushback with regard to the idea that Mennonites broadly speaking, 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.600 are opposed to vaccinations. There's nothing explicit in their theology 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:21.040 or worldview that opposes vaccinations on principle. But these are 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:26.600 individuals who hold strongly held beliefs regarding their religion, regarding 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.160 their theology, and what they believe is right for them 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.720 to do for their families and for their communities. It's 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:37.360 not merely a few sectarian Mennonite communities in the United 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.520 States that are hesitant to vaccinate their children in this way. 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.520 It's actually a much bigger problem among what we could call. 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.280 You know, some people might say mainstream evangelical Christians. Others 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:54.360 might specifically refer to it as non denominational charismatic Christianity. 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.440 But no matter which way you cut it, there is 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:03.080 a clear and observable relationship between conservative Christianity and anti 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:07.040 vaccination beliefs. Now, as a journalist in Texas, I've done 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.120 my fair share of reporting on conservative Christianity, particularly the 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.600 highly politicized strains of it that are popular in the 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.440 Lone Star State and in North Texas where I live. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.359 I didn't grow up in one of these communities. I'm 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:25.400 an outsider, So to help me unpack how conservative Christianity 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.600 became so intertwined with this sort of anti vaccination movement. 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.000 I brought in a special guest with whom you may 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:32.680 be familiar. 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.639 Hi, I'm Garrison Davis. I write about politics, extremism, and 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:40.720 how much fun it is to be in the twenty 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:42.880 first century for cool Zone Media. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:45.359 So, you know, in terms of what I hope to 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.760 hear from you, I mean, let's go back to your upbringing. 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.920 Tell me a little bit about the community you grew 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.360 up in and the sort of religious system that you 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:56.440 were brought up in. 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:01.040 Yeah, so I grew up in a non denominational evangelical 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:06.240 community that was largely at least on like the leadership 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:12.240 side was transplanted from Texas to a well, not a 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.920 small town because it's actually the biggest town in the 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:19.560 in the province, but a relatively medium sized city, I 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:24.639 guess in Saskatchewan. Definitely an interesting mix of like Canadian 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:30.160 customs matched with the whole Texas vibe, but definitely the 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:34.519 type of like Bible belts, post fire and brimstone Christianity 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.320 that came out of Texas was like the dominant form 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.080 of Christianity, which was like preached from the pulpit and 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:45.520 like influenced all other life choices beyond just your Sunday 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.520 morning service or your Saturday night service, or your Wednesday 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:53.200 night service or your Tuesday morning service, et cetera. 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.720 So let's let's dig a little bit more into the 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.760 character of it. So, you know, in tech, we've got 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.840 you know, a wide variety of congregations and sub sets 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:10.280 and non denominational Christianity is absolutely the fastest growing flavor 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.600 of Christianity, not just in Texas but in the United States. 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.400 There's some good research about this, and some people describe 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.080 it as evangelical, some people describe it as charismatic. Sometimes 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.400 both of those descriptions are accurate. There could be some 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.480 differences between these types of churches. Some of them are 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.000 focused a lot on like things like prosperity gospel, Others 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:37.680 maybe towards more Southern Baptists esque style of preaching and theology, 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.160 and some really lean into maybe more like Pentecostal style 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:48.960 beliefs in miracles and supernatural power of God to directly 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:53.279 intervene in people's lives and things like that. So, you know, 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.280 how would you characterize your church and the community that 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.640 you were part of, Like, you know, was it common 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.880 for people to talk about spiritual healing or sort of 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.400 those miraculous interventions totally. 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.800 Yeah, yeah, no, it was. It was kind of like 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:11.240 a Christian Chile. We certainly had some prosperity gospel elements. 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.960 You had some like Southern Baptist elements certainly when it 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.120 comes to like social views. But yeah, no, like the 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:21.960 spirit healing aspect, huge, huge people will get like healed 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.920 during services. People would like faint and pass out. They 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.000 would like bring in preachers from the States, or would 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.320 go go on these big like tours where you're you know, 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.599 both trying to like recruit people and then also like 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:40.240 offer these like miraculous healing services during these like you know, 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:44.160 five hour long sermons. So yeah, certainly a Pentecostal element 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.039 was pretty dominant, combined with like you know, focus on 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.560 the family type stuff, some Southern Baptist stuff that makes sense. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.640 I mean, that's tracks with what I expected and the 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.120 sort of things that I see around here. Maybe you're 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:58.440 familiar with Kenneth Copeland. 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:02.720 Kenneth Copeland is how do I try this? So the 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.279 main pastor of the church I was from is the 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:12.200 uncle of a pastor in Oklahoma who used to run 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:15.520 a church called Church on the Move, and he is 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.840 very close personal friends with Kenneth Copeland, and I think 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.039 I've seen Copeland a few times in person, like dinners 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:26.279 and stuff. He was a pretty regular figure, I believe 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.320 preached at the church a few times I was younger, 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.640 but I know my dad's met him through works. My 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:36.239 dad worked for the church. And yeah, so no, very 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.240 very Kenneth Copeland d vibes. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.000 Well, that makes sense because Kenneth Copeland, you know, he's 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.680 not only the wealthiest pastor in the United States, but 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.200 he's one of the most influential as well. And definitely 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.160 in North Texas where his home base is. He's got 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:55.080 a big church in you know, Terrant County, and I've 0:06:55.120 --> 0:07:01.240 been to his annual convention, which is special time. So 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.040 you know, I totally understand the vibe that you're talking about. 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:08.520 Then it also illustrates the vast reach of someone like 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:10.400 Kenneth Copeland for it to be all the way up 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:11.680 in Saskatchewan. 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:16.280 And like the interconnectedness because like the pastor of my 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:20.440 old church is American, born in Texas, is currently in 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.680 America because he's in hiding from Canadian authorities related to 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:27.440 a series of court cases and criminal complaints about abuse 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.800 in this church. So he's currently he's currently fled and 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.720 is in hiding somewhere in the US, hiding from His 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:35.920 Majesty's Royal Court. 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:36.800 Incredible. 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.360 Yes, he's also my step grandfather. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.280 I'll get back to my conversation with Gahre here shortly, 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:56.800 but first an ad break. So before we go any further, 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.720 we need to talk a little bit more about Kenneth 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:04.560 copel One. So he's the wealthiest and one of the 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:08.240 most influential pastors in the United States, perhaps the world, 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:12.640 but he's also a highly political one. He's affiliated with 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.080 the Charismatic Christian movement, which is one of the fastest growing, 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.160 if not the fastest growing Christian movements in the United States, 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.880 and early on he lent his support to Donald Trump 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.559 in Donald Trump's first campaign in twenty sixteen. Three years 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:31.880 before that, in twenty thirteen, the church led by his 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:36.079 daughter Terry, which is called Eagle Mountain International, was at 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.160 the center of a measle's outbreak. At the time, the 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.800 church and its leaders were criticized for preaching against vaccinations, 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:45.559 and even as they set up vaccine clinics at the 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:47.600 back of the church. When things got really bad, they 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.600 continued to speak out against vaccinations in this way and 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.559 implying to their flock that they need to place their 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.080 faith not in medicine but in prayer and in God. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.920 And when the COVID nineteen pandemic was first kicking off 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.880 in America, Kenneth Copeland spoke of the disease as a 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:09.280 sort of tool of Satan, but he actually called for vaccinations. 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:14.600 Interestingly enough, I execute judgment on you, COVID nineteen. 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:20.280 I execute judgment on you, Satan. You destroyer, you killer, 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:25.280 you get out, you would break coper, you get confiscation. 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:32.400 I demand judgment on you. I modh man, I demand 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.040 a vaccination of Commadien. 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:35.600 Yes. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.120 But Copeland's belief in spiritual healing and his ties to 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.360 the Trump administration seemingly led him to quickly return to 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.640 his old antics. He preached that COVID would be over 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:48.679 soon because God would destroy it. 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.360 OVID nineteen. 0:09:58.160 --> 0:09:58.560 I'm go. 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:06.080 God, on you, on you. 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:12.280 You are destroying forever, and you will never be back 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:14.160 and you'll never lead that. 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:20.319 Thank you hard, Thank you a God. Let it happen. 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:21.160 Pause this. 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.680 Over the course of many sermons, Copeland compared the virus 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.400 to the flu. He suggested people who attended his services 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.840 could be healed in person, and asserted that the president's 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:38.120 opponents had quote opened the door for the pandemic with 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:43.199 their quote displays of hate against him. Later that fall, 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.760 with the pandemic fully raging across America, Copeland still held 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.680 his annual conference in Fort Worth, Texas. In August of 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.880 twenty twenty, a television news report showed that no one 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:58.200 at the conference was wearing a mask, and in September 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.559 twenty twenty one, Copeland begged his view was to help 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.079 him fund the purchase of a new private jet that 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.640 would allow him to avoid travel restrictions that were still 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:09.760 in place around COVID nineteen and requiring vaccinations. He compared 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.120 those vaccination requirements for flying to the satanic quote mark 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:16.160 of the beasts. By the time that I attended Copeland's 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:19.520 annual convention in twenty twenty three, he had embraced the 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:23.600 likes of Mike Lindell, the election conspiracist who has promoted 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:28.600 junk cures for COVID while sewing doubts without vaccines. So 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:31.240 you know, I didn't grow up in one of these communities. 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.760 I had been to some megachurch sermons and services in 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.320 the past. I knew people who went to places like 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:40.559 Gateway Church, which is a huge one here in North Texas, 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:45.239 very politically involved in their founding pastor was just implicated 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.080 in you know, child. 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.160 Sex abuse, many such cases, many such cases. 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:54.480 And as an outsider in my mind, I directly link 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:59.839 sort of belief in spiritual healing with vaccine has it? 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.439 And see, yeah, because you know, there's there's this sense 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.120 that will, if God can heal you, why would you 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:10.160 need to rely on something like a vaccine, But also 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:11.800 that you know, you need to place your faith in 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.559 God more than man or the government. 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:17.080 It is more that thing. It's that by electing to 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.840 get a vaccine, that demonstrates that you do not have 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.920 faith in God like it's it's it's it's more so 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.320 like a larger theological issue beyond just like you know, 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.320 we don't we don't trust the science like I trust 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.920 God more than the science. It's that like even electing 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.680 to do that demonstrates this deeper, like more core belief 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.800 that you do not have the faith in God that 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.520 is adequate in order to like take care of you 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.000 your body and whatever He may have planned for you, 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.839 perhaps that includes getting measles and you'll you'll work through 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.959 that maybe or not, you know, as we're seeing now 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.400 in Texas a lot. But yeah, like it's it's not 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:59.920 just about like medical skepticism, science skepticism. It is this 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.319 deeper aspect that that more relates to someone's like individual 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.840 relationship and faith in God. 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.600 So when you were growing up, I mean, did you 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:12.800 pick up at all on this sort of skepticism with 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.720 regard to not you know, I guess modern science broadly, 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.480 but also medical interventions totally? 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.920 Totally Yeah, No, I mean like literally this the school 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:25.840 that I went to, which was which was a part 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:27.560 of this church, like I was, I was I was 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.640 taught from from like an American creationist curriculum for like 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:37.040 the first I guess like seven grades called ACE. There 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.400 was big ACE conferences that that like the teachers and 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.360 my dad would travel to the States for every year. 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:45.560 But yeah, like this stuff is literally like taught to 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.080 all the kids because in order to go to this 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.640 church you have to also send your kids to the school. 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.000 You are raised in this and like you have no 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.360 choice in the matter, and that that just becomes like 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.800 what is real? Like that just is reality, Like it's 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.360 it's not. It's not that there's like an alter alternative 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.560 to that. It's like like a nine year old kid, 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.400 like that just is what the world is. So like 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.920 what you're reading those textbooks, that just is truth. It's 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.600 very isolated environments, like you're you you aren't really fully 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:12.960 aware that there's like an alternative to that, and if 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.360 there is, it's like, what's the word? We didn't even 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.560 use words like like like atheists. I think secular was 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.400 was maybe the word. That was maybe the word that 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.560 they use, Like you can't you can't like listen to 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:25.760 like secular music or like be aware of like you know, 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.680 like like secular culture because that's satanic or it can 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.160 lead you away from God or it's a distraction from God, 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.840 you know that that sort of thing. But no, like yeah, 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.800 it's this is built in and like yeah, you know, 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.400 very basic creationist stuff like answers in Genesis being like 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.560 the highest Bastion of science, which is like a fake 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:50.400 science website touted by creationists and evangelicals. But this also 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.840 extends to medical science as well. The same way you 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.280 believe the Earth is six thousand years old, you maybe 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.920 also don't believe in like cancer treatment right. 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.480 So to the extent that you can recall if you know, 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:03.880 or you know, if you're willing to share. Like, do 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:07.160 you recall if you were vaccinated as a child. 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.240 I was not. No, The first time I got vaccinated 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.720 was as an older teenager when I gained medical autonomy 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.080 and I was like, hey, I should probably get vaccinated. 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:20.560 Huh okay, because both like unplugging from these takes time. 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.440 Like I think my family got away from this community 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.760 when I was like eleven or twelve, But because I'm 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.480 like the oldest of all my siblings, this was the 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.560 most like baked into me, more so than my other siblings. 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.119 So like, even if you like get away from this physically, 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.040 you still have to like mentally detalk. You have to 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:41.680 realize that you were kind of in a cult, and 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.120 then you have to like deprogram yourself, and that like 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.520 takes years. So like I didn't like fully disconnect from 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.880 this style of Christianity and like, you know, Christianity in 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.240 general until like a few years after. So by the 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.280 time I was like a you know, middle to older 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.800 teenager is when I started like sort this type of 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:03.040 stuff out and eventually got caught up on those vaccines. 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:07.000 Luckily I never got chicken pox, although people did throw 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:09.840 chicken pox parties when I was a kid, which I 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.280 can recall the concept of, especially if like a baby 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.160 or a toddler or even like you know, like a 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:18.360 like like like a ten year old has chicken pox. 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:20.760 No one else's of course, is vaccinated for this in 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.480 this whole community. So if someone has chicken pox, you 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.600 will not just isolate them, You will actually encourage other 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.280 people to like hang out and play together with the 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:33.080 express intent of getting sick yourself as a form of 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:38.080 like natural immunization. And I think I was offered to 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.080 go to one of these chicken pox parties quote unquote, 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:45.520 I think as like a ten year old or something. Declined, Wow. 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:47.680 I mean, good on you for at least having that 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:51.800 wherewithal So, and you know, Saskatchewan and Canada are different 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.520 than the United States and Texas, and medical exemptions, exemptions 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.960 of conscience or religious medical exemptions are are a big thing. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:01.960 And there's actually a bill in the state House right 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:06.080 now to expand that sort of thing with regard to vaccines. 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.880 I mean, was that something that was going on up there? 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.080 I mean, was just because were you in a private school? 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.800 You were kind of outside of any sort of regime 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:14.760 of accountability. 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:16.560 Yeah, we were in the private school, and I know 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:18.720 people who worked in the private school did like lobbying 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:23.399 in the province to like keep their medical freedom, you know, 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.840 intact to make sure the state does not interfere. Though 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.360 I do remember when my family moved to the States, 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.920 throughout the immigration process, we had to fill out a 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.280 lot of those like religious exemption forms because you're supposed 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.879 to get vaccinated and make sure you're not carrying like 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.680 tuberculosis when you immigrate to a new country. But even 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:46.760 for those, there is like religious exemptions that if you 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:48.480 have enough money, you can pay. 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.119 For When was this like roughly timeline when you know, 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:52.800 when you were a child, when you're in private school? 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:54.120 Was the broad range? 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.639 This is? This is like the knots right, this is 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.359 the early two thousands. Yeah, I mean, like I'm in 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:00.320 my early twenties now. 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.600 Vaccine hes intency has clearly been a part of certain 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.200 conservative Christian congregations for some time. 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.600 Something I remember happening kind of because of like what 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.840 my parents were involved with at the time. Is you know, 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.200 there's on one side, this whole like theological side of 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:21.080 like not wanting to do vaccines or like unnecessary medical 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.919 procedures because of your faith in God. On the other hand, 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:29.159 kind of around like twenty ten, and like you know, 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.840 a few years before and after, we started to really 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:36.040 see kind of that aspect along with like the hippie 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:40.320 mom Facebook group aspect kind of collide right and like 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:44.400 this healthy you know, like organic natural like hippie mom 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:46.520 thing used to be more associated with, like you know, 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.359 people on the left, especially in the nineties, and you 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:53.040 started to see these two kind of polls converge around 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.919 twenty ten. Because this is like what happened with like 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.120 my two parents at the time, where like my dad 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:00.960 was more in the theological side, then my mom was 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:02.879 kind of more on like the the kind of like 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.479 crunchy side of things. And these things like combined this 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.639 new breed of evangelical Christianity that you see as like 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.480 very popular right now with like the tradwife angle combined 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.680 with like you know, crunchy like naturalistic organic stuff that 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:19.800 used to be left wing and is now like very 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.679 very right wing. You had a very very like conservative 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.440 like family values coded which which did not really used 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.840 to be the case as much, and that's kind of 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:33.199 like strengthened the anti VACS hold on this like section 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:34.160 of the population. 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.520 So, I mean, this is incredible. You were part of 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:41.800 a church that basically had connections to Texas by way 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.520 of Kenneth Copeland, and you had mentioned, you know, kind 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.080 of having a crunchy, more maybe left leaning mom. How 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.359 apparent in retrospect was sort of the political nature of 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.720 your church? Was it particularly political? You had mentioned lobbying, 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.520 but you know, lobbying isn't necessarily partisan. 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.520 They preached, like Glenn Beck from the pulpit, like very 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:06.200 very conservative, openly conservative, like that is like the Christian 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.439 godly correct path. I guess like this is where it's 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:11.960 tied in a bit more with some of like the 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.640 some of like the Southern Baptist these type stuff, right 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:19.200 where you have like anti gay conversion therapy like camps 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.240 that they can send people to. Like no, like this 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:26.720 is very very like Bill O'Reilly, very very Glenn Beck 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.520 like that was that was the moment, right, this is 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:32.240 this is two thousand and eight. The Antichrist has just 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:36.239 been elected president of the United States, possibly literally, and 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:38.480 even though they're up in Canada, this is still like 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:42.680 concern number one on the like the transnational like Christian 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:47.480 Christian world, so no, like extremely openly conservative to the 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.159 point where it is it is being preached alongside the 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:52.080 words of Jesus and Paul. 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:54.840 You had a front row seat to sort of a 0:20:55.320 --> 0:21:01.159 shifting ground because you know, Southern Baptist Christian Christianity is 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.359 kind of declining and it has I think has been 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:09.959 supplanted by this quote unquote non denominational, totally set of networks. 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.199 You know, there's a there's a term that some scholars 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:16.360 use independent network Christianity where the leaders of the churches, 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.240 they are non denominational, They're not a part of a hierarchy. 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.479 They answer to no higher power other than God, you know, 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:28.160 so their interpretation of God is basically the rule or 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:29.359 or it is the authority. 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.080 It's like a post Billy Graham era. Oh yeah, like 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:37.120 networked churches, but are not part of like a coherent structure. 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:42.240 They're kind of like terrorist cells. Essentially, they offer very 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:46.240 similarly to like a cell network of terrorists. Try to 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.080 remember what the with Like the most wild faith healings 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.000 I've seen are the thing I think people were faith 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:54.840 healed the most for is probably back pain a lot 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:59.919 of back pain gets faith yield. Of course the right 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.000 the odd person who's able to claim that, like you know, 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:05.920 a faith healing cured their cancer, who then probably died 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:08.880 three years later of cancer. But you also get faith 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.639 field for a bunch of like smaller ailments, right and so, 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:13.680 And someone will walk up to you, put hands on you. 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.960 You might start convulsing like this like psychosomatic thing. Sometimes 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.199 you'll pass out. A lot of people pass out. It 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.919 becomes like this performative thing, like subconsciously. I remember there 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:26.640 was there was people they were stationed where people would 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:29.840 pass out with with little I think they're called modesty blankets, 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.520 so that when they pass out, maybe your shirt will 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:33.920 come up a little bit and someone will see a 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:36.040 little bit of tummy. You can walk over and put 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:39.120 the blanket over as you're recovering from you from your 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:43.160 healing session. All this is happening during like essentially like 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:48.880 an acoustic concert. So it creates a very peculiar vibe 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:52.600 of people kind of poorly play musical instruments as other 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.400 people like walk through like an auditorium and just start 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:57.280 like passing out, and you just get this pile of 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.520