Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: I'm Stephen Manicelli. I'm a journalist in Dallas and an
Speaker 2: occasional contributor to Cool Zone Media. And this is episode
Speaker 2: three of Anti VAXs America, a special five parts series
Speaker 2: exploring anti vaccination beliefs in the United States through the
Speaker 2: lens of the West Texas measles outbreak that has since
Speaker 2: spread to several other states in the nation and claimed
Speaker 2: three lives. One of those lives was the daughter of
Speaker 2: a man named Peter, a member of a Mennonite community
Speaker 2: in West Texas. For Peter, the death of his child
Speaker 2: was basically God's will. He did an interview in which
Speaker 2: he described that if it's God's plan, you know, that
Speaker 2: is basically what he has to accept. But he also
Speaker 2: continued to oppose vaccines, and his wife said that they
Speaker 2: wouldn't recommend them to other parents. Now, Mennonites have been
Speaker 2: singled out in a lot of the coverage about this
Speaker 2: measles outbreak, given that the outbreak has centered in their
Speaker 2: community in West Texas, and there's been a lot of
Speaker 2: pushback with regard to the idea that Mennonites broadly speaking,
Speaker 2: are opposed to vaccinations. There's nothing explicit in their theology
Speaker 2: or worldview that opposes vaccinations on principle. But these are
Speaker 2: individuals who hold strongly held beliefs regarding their religion, regarding
Speaker 2: their theology, and what they believe is right for them
Speaker 2: to do for their families and for their communities. It's
Speaker 2: not merely a few sectarian Mennonite communities in the United
Speaker 2: States that are hesitant to vaccinate their children in this way.
Speaker 2: It's actually a much bigger problem among what we could call.
Speaker 2: You know, some people might say mainstream evangelical Christians. Others
Speaker 2: might specifically refer to it as non denominational charismatic Christianity.
Speaker 2: But no matter which way you cut it, there is
Speaker 2: a clear and observable relationship between conservative Christianity and anti
Speaker 2: vaccination beliefs. Now, as a journalist in Texas, I've done
Speaker 2: my fair share of reporting on conservative Christianity, particularly the
Speaker 2: highly politicized strains of it that are popular in the
Speaker 2: Lone Star State and in North Texas where I live.
Speaker 2: I didn't grow up in one of these communities. I'm
Speaker 2: an outsider, So to help me unpack how conservative Christianity
Speaker 2: became so intertwined with this sort of anti vaccination movement.
Speaker 2: I brought in a special guest with whom you may
Speaker 2: be familiar.
Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Garrison Davis. I write about politics, extremism, and
Speaker 3: how much fun it is to be in the twenty
Speaker 3: first century for cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: So, you know, in terms of what I hope to
Speaker 2: hear from you, I mean, let's go back to your upbringing.
Speaker 2: Tell me a little bit about the community you grew
Speaker 2: up in and the sort of religious system that you
Speaker 2: were brought up in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I grew up in a non denominational evangelical
Speaker 3: community that was largely at least on like the leadership
Speaker 3: side was transplanted from Texas to a well, not a
Speaker 3: small town because it's actually the biggest town in the
Speaker 3: in the province, but a relatively medium sized city, I
Speaker 3: guess in Saskatchewan. Definitely an interesting mix of like Canadian
Speaker 3: customs matched with the whole Texas vibe, but definitely the
Speaker 3: type of like Bible belts, post fire and brimstone Christianity
Speaker 3: that came out of Texas was like the dominant form
Speaker 3: of Christianity, which was like preached from the pulpit and
Speaker 3: like influenced all other life choices beyond just your Sunday
Speaker 3: morning service or your Saturday night service, or your Wednesday
Speaker 3: night service or your Tuesday morning service, et cetera.
Speaker 2: So let's let's dig a little bit more into the
Speaker 2: character of it. So, you know, in tech, we've got
Speaker 2: you know, a wide variety of congregations and sub sets
Speaker 2: and non denominational Christianity is absolutely the fastest growing flavor
Speaker 2: of Christianity, not just in Texas but in the United States.
Speaker 2: There's some good research about this, and some people describe
Speaker 2: it as evangelical, some people describe it as charismatic. Sometimes
Speaker 2: both of those descriptions are accurate. There could be some
Speaker 2: differences between these types of churches. Some of them are
Speaker 2: focused a lot on like things like prosperity gospel, Others
Speaker 2: maybe towards more Southern Baptists esque style of preaching and theology,
Speaker 2: and some really lean into maybe more like Pentecostal style
Speaker 2: beliefs in miracles and supernatural power of God to directly
Speaker 2: intervene in people's lives and things like that. So, you know,
Speaker 2: how would you characterize your church and the community that
Speaker 2: you were part of, Like, you know, was it common
Speaker 2: for people to talk about spiritual healing or sort of
Speaker 2: those miraculous interventions totally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, it was. It was kind of like
Speaker 3: a Christian Chile. We certainly had some prosperity gospel elements.
Speaker 3: You had some like Southern Baptist elements certainly when it
Speaker 3: comes to like social views. But yeah, no, like the
Speaker 3: spirit healing aspect, huge, huge people will get like healed
Speaker 3: during services. People would like faint and pass out. They
Speaker 3: would like bring in preachers from the States, or would
Speaker 3: go go on these big like tours where you're you know,
Speaker 3: both trying to like recruit people and then also like
Speaker 3: offer these like miraculous healing services during these like you know,
Speaker 3: five hour long sermons. So yeah, certainly a Pentecostal element
Speaker 3: was pretty dominant, combined with like you know, focus on
Speaker 3: the family type stuff, some Southern Baptist stuff that makes sense.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's tracks with what I expected and the
Speaker 2: sort of things that I see around here. Maybe you're
Speaker 2: familiar with Kenneth Copeland.
Speaker 3: Kenneth Copeland is how do I try this? So the
Speaker 3: main pastor of the church I was from is the
Speaker 3: uncle of a pastor in Oklahoma who used to run
Speaker 3: a church called Church on the Move, and he is
Speaker 3: very close personal friends with Kenneth Copeland, and I think
Speaker 3: I've seen Copeland a few times in person, like dinners
Speaker 3: and stuff. He was a pretty regular figure, I believe
Speaker 3: preached at the church a few times I was younger,
Speaker 3: but I know my dad's met him through works. My
Speaker 3: dad worked for the church. And yeah, so no, very
Speaker 3: very Kenneth Copeland d vibes.
Speaker 2: Well, that makes sense because Kenneth Copeland, you know, he's
Speaker 2: not only the wealthiest pastor in the United States, but
Speaker 2: he's one of the most influential as well. And definitely
Speaker 2: in North Texas where his home base is. He's got
Speaker 2: a big church in you know, Terrant County, and I've
Speaker 2: been to his annual convention, which is special time. So
Speaker 2: you know, I totally understand the vibe that you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Then it also illustrates the vast reach of someone like
Speaker 2: Kenneth Copeland for it to be all the way up
Speaker 2: in Saskatchewan.
Speaker 3: And like the interconnectedness because like the pastor of my
Speaker 3: old church is American, born in Texas, is currently in
Speaker 3: America because he's in hiding from Canadian authorities related to
Speaker 3: a series of court cases and criminal complaints about abuse
Speaker 3: in this church. So he's currently he's currently fled and
Speaker 3: is in hiding somewhere in the US, hiding from His
Speaker 3: Majesty's Royal Court.
Speaker 2: Incredible.
Speaker 3: Yes, he's also my step grandfather.
Speaker 2: I'll get back to my conversation with Gahre here shortly,
Speaker 2: but first an ad break. So before we go any further,
Speaker 2: we need to talk a little bit more about Kenneth
Speaker 2: copel One. So he's the wealthiest and one of the
Speaker 2: most influential pastors in the United States, perhaps the world,
Speaker 2: but he's also a highly political one. He's affiliated with
Speaker 2: the Charismatic Christian movement, which is one of the fastest growing,
Speaker 2: if not the fastest growing Christian movements in the United States,
Speaker 2: and early on he lent his support to Donald Trump
Speaker 2: in Donald Trump's first campaign in twenty sixteen. Three years
Speaker 2: before that, in twenty thirteen, the church led by his
Speaker 2: daughter Terry, which is called Eagle Mountain International, was at
Speaker 2: the center of a measle's outbreak. At the time, the
Speaker 2: church and its leaders were criticized for preaching against vaccinations,
Speaker 2: and even as they set up vaccine clinics at the
Speaker 2: back of the church. When things got really bad, they
Speaker 2: continued to speak out against vaccinations in this way and
Speaker 2: implying to their flock that they need to place their
Speaker 2: faith not in medicine but in prayer and in God.
Speaker 2: And when the COVID nineteen pandemic was first kicking off
Speaker 2: in America, Kenneth Copeland spoke of the disease as a
Speaker 2: sort of tool of Satan, but he actually called for vaccinations.
Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, I execute judgment on you, COVID nineteen.
Speaker 3: I execute judgment on you, Satan. You destroyer, you killer,
Speaker 3: you get out, you would break coper, you get confiscation.
Speaker 2: I demand judgment on you. I modh man, I demand
Speaker 2: a vaccination of Commadien.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 2: But Copeland's belief in spiritual healing and his ties to
Speaker 2: the Trump administration seemingly led him to quickly return to
Speaker 2: his old antics. He preached that COVID would be over
Speaker 2: soon because God would destroy it.
Speaker 4: OVID nineteen.
Speaker 3: I'm go.
Speaker 4: God, on you, on you.
Speaker 5: You are destroying forever, and you will never be back
Speaker 5: and you'll never lead that.
Speaker 4: Thank you hard, Thank you a God. Let it happen.
Speaker 3: Pause this.
Speaker 2: Over the course of many sermons, Copeland compared the virus
Speaker 2: to the flu. He suggested people who attended his services
Speaker 2: could be healed in person, and asserted that the president's
Speaker 2: opponents had quote opened the door for the pandemic with
Speaker 2: their quote displays of hate against him. Later that fall,
Speaker 2: with the pandemic fully raging across America, Copeland still held
Speaker 2: his annual conference in Fort Worth, Texas. In August of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, a television news report showed that no one
Speaker 2: at the conference was wearing a mask, and in September
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, Copeland begged his view was to help
Speaker 2: him fund the purchase of a new private jet that
Speaker 2: would allow him to avoid travel restrictions that were still
Speaker 2: in place around COVID nineteen and requiring vaccinations. He compared
Speaker 2: those vaccination requirements for flying to the satanic quote mark
Speaker 2: of the beasts. By the time that I attended Copeland's
Speaker 2: annual convention in twenty twenty three, he had embraced the
Speaker 2: likes of Mike Lindell, the election conspiracist who has promoted
Speaker 2: junk cures for COVID while sewing doubts without vaccines. So
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't grow up in one of these communities.
Speaker 2: I had been to some megachurch sermons and services in
Speaker 2: the past. I knew people who went to places like
Speaker 2: Gateway Church, which is a huge one here in North Texas,
Speaker 2: very politically involved in their founding pastor was just implicated
Speaker 2: in you know, child.
Speaker 3: Sex abuse, many such cases, many such cases.
Speaker 2: And as an outsider in my mind, I directly link
Speaker 2: sort of belief in spiritual healing with vaccine has it?
Speaker 2: And see, yeah, because you know, there's there's this sense
Speaker 2: that will, if God can heal you, why would you
Speaker 2: need to rely on something like a vaccine, But also
Speaker 2: that you know, you need to place your faith in
Speaker 2: God more than man or the government.
Speaker 3: It is more that thing. It's that by electing to
Speaker 3: get a vaccine, that demonstrates that you do not have
Speaker 3: faith in God like it's it's it's it's more so
Speaker 3: like a larger theological issue beyond just like you know,
Speaker 3: we don't we don't trust the science like I trust
Speaker 3: God more than the science. It's that like even electing
Speaker 3: to do that demonstrates this deeper, like more core belief
Speaker 3: that you do not have the faith in God that
Speaker 3: is adequate in order to like take care of you
Speaker 3: your body and whatever He may have planned for you,
Speaker 3: perhaps that includes getting measles and you'll you'll work through
Speaker 3: that maybe or not, you know, as we're seeing now
Speaker 3: in Texas a lot. But yeah, like it's it's not
Speaker 3: just about like medical skepticism, science skepticism. It is this
Speaker 3: deeper aspect that that more relates to someone's like individual
Speaker 3: relationship and faith in God.
Speaker 2: So when you were growing up, I mean, did you
Speaker 2: pick up at all on this sort of skepticism with
Speaker 2: regard to not you know, I guess modern science broadly,
Speaker 2: but also medical interventions totally?
Speaker 3: Totally Yeah, No, I mean like literally this the school
Speaker 3: that I went to, which was which was a part
Speaker 3: of this church, like I was, I was I was
Speaker 3: taught from from like an American creationist curriculum for like
Speaker 3: the first I guess like seven grades called ACE. There
Speaker 3: was big ACE conferences that that like the teachers and
Speaker 3: my dad would travel to the States for every year.
Speaker 3: But yeah, like this stuff is literally like taught to
Speaker 3: all the kids because in order to go to this
Speaker 3: church you have to also send your kids to the school.
Speaker 3: You are raised in this and like you have no
Speaker 3: choice in the matter, and that that just becomes like
Speaker 3: what is real? Like that just is reality, Like it's
Speaker 3: it's not. It's not that there's like an alter alternative
Speaker 3: to that. It's like like a nine year old kid,
Speaker 3: like that just is what the world is. So like
Speaker 3: what you're reading those textbooks, that just is truth. It's
Speaker 3: very isolated environments, like you're you you aren't really fully
Speaker 3: aware that there's like an alternative to that, and if
Speaker 3: there is, it's like, what's the word? We didn't even
Speaker 3: use words like like like atheists. I think secular was
Speaker 3: was maybe the word. That was maybe the word that
Speaker 3: they use, Like you can't you can't like listen to
Speaker 3: like secular music or like be aware of like you know,
Speaker 3: like like secular culture because that's satanic or it can
Speaker 3: lead you away from God or it's a distraction from God,
Speaker 3: you know that that sort of thing. But no, like yeah,
Speaker 3: it's this is built in and like yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: very basic creationist stuff like answers in Genesis being like
Speaker 3: the highest Bastion of science, which is like a fake
Speaker 3: science website touted by creationists and evangelicals. But this also
Speaker 3: extends to medical science as well. The same way you
Speaker 3: believe the Earth is six thousand years old, you maybe
Speaker 3: also don't believe in like cancer treatment right.
Speaker 2: So to the extent that you can recall if you know,
Speaker 2: or you know, if you're willing to share. Like, do
Speaker 2: you recall if you were vaccinated as a child.
Speaker 3: I was not. No, The first time I got vaccinated
Speaker 3: was as an older teenager when I gained medical autonomy
Speaker 3: and I was like, hey, I should probably get vaccinated.
Speaker 3: Huh okay, because both like unplugging from these takes time.
Speaker 3: Like I think my family got away from this community
Speaker 3: when I was like eleven or twelve, But because I'm
Speaker 3: like the oldest of all my siblings, this was the
Speaker 3: most like baked into me, more so than my other siblings.
Speaker 3: So like, even if you like get away from this physically,
Speaker 3: you still have to like mentally detalk. You have to
Speaker 3: realize that you were kind of in a cult, and
Speaker 3: then you have to like deprogram yourself, and that like
Speaker 3: takes years. So like I didn't like fully disconnect from
Speaker 3: this style of Christianity and like, you know, Christianity in
Speaker 3: general until like a few years after. So by the
Speaker 3: time I was like a you know, middle to older
Speaker 3: teenager is when I started like sort this type of
Speaker 3: stuff out and eventually got caught up on those vaccines.
Speaker 3: Luckily I never got chicken pox, although people did throw
Speaker 3: chicken pox parties when I was a kid, which I
Speaker 3: can recall the concept of, especially if like a baby
Speaker 3: or a toddler or even like you know, like a
Speaker 3: like like like a ten year old has chicken pox.
Speaker 3: No one else's of course, is vaccinated for this in
Speaker 3: this whole community. So if someone has chicken pox, you
Speaker 3: will not just isolate them, You will actually encourage other
Speaker 3: people to like hang out and play together with the
Speaker 3: express intent of getting sick yourself as a form of
Speaker 3: like natural immunization. And I think I was offered to
Speaker 3: go to one of these chicken pox parties quote unquote,
Speaker 3: I think as like a ten year old or something. Declined, Wow.
Speaker 2: I mean, good on you for at least having that
Speaker 2: wherewithal So, and you know, Saskatchewan and Canada are different
Speaker 2: than the United States and Texas, and medical exemptions, exemptions
Speaker 2: of conscience or religious medical exemptions are are a big thing.
Speaker 2: And there's actually a bill in the state House right
Speaker 2: now to expand that sort of thing with regard to vaccines.
Speaker 2: I mean, was that something that was going on up there?
Speaker 2: I mean, was just because were you in a private school?
Speaker 2: You were kind of outside of any sort of regime
Speaker 2: of accountability.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were in the private school, and I know
Speaker 3: people who worked in the private school did like lobbying
Speaker 3: in the province to like keep their medical freedom, you know,
Speaker 3: intact to make sure the state does not interfere. Though
Speaker 3: I do remember when my family moved to the States,
Speaker 3: throughout the immigration process, we had to fill out a
Speaker 3: lot of those like religious exemption forms because you're supposed
Speaker 3: to get vaccinated and make sure you're not carrying like
Speaker 3: tuberculosis when you immigrate to a new country. But even
Speaker 3: for those, there is like religious exemptions that if you
Speaker 3: have enough money, you can pay.
Speaker 2: For When was this like roughly timeline when you know,
Speaker 2: when you were a child, when you're in private school?
Speaker 2: Was the broad range?
Speaker 3: This is? This is like the knots right, this is
Speaker 3: the early two thousands. Yeah, I mean, like I'm in
Speaker 3: my early twenties now.
Speaker 2: Vaccine hes intency has clearly been a part of certain
Speaker 2: conservative Christian congregations for some time.
Speaker 3: Something I remember happening kind of because of like what
Speaker 3: my parents were involved with at the time. Is you know,
Speaker 3: there's on one side, this whole like theological side of
Speaker 3: like not wanting to do vaccines or like unnecessary medical
Speaker 3: procedures because of your faith in God. On the other hand,
Speaker 3: kind of around like twenty ten, and like you know,
Speaker 3: a few years before and after, we started to really
Speaker 3: see kind of that aspect along with like the hippie
Speaker 3: mom Facebook group aspect kind of collide right and like
Speaker 3: this healthy you know, like organic natural like hippie mom
Speaker 3: thing used to be more associated with, like you know,
Speaker 3: people on the left, especially in the nineties, and you
Speaker 3: started to see these two kind of polls converge around
Speaker 3: twenty ten. Because this is like what happened with like
Speaker 3: my two parents at the time, where like my dad
Speaker 3: was more in the theological side, then my mom was
Speaker 3: kind of more on like the the kind of like
Speaker 3: crunchy side of things. And these things like combined this
Speaker 3: new breed of evangelical Christianity that you see as like
Speaker 3: very popular right now with like the tradwife angle combined
Speaker 3: with like you know, crunchy like naturalistic organic stuff that
Speaker 3: used to be left wing and is now like very
Speaker 3: very right wing. You had a very very like conservative
Speaker 3: like family values coded which which did not really used
Speaker 3: to be the case as much, and that's kind of
Speaker 3: like strengthened the anti VACS hold on this like section
Speaker 3: of the population.
Speaker 2: So, I mean, this is incredible. You were part of
Speaker 2: a church that basically had connections to Texas by way
Speaker 2: of Kenneth Copeland, and you had mentioned, you know, kind
Speaker 2: of having a crunchy, more maybe left leaning mom. How
Speaker 2: apparent in retrospect was sort of the political nature of
Speaker 2: your church? Was it particularly political? You had mentioned lobbying,
Speaker 2: but you know, lobbying isn't necessarily partisan.
Speaker 3: They preached, like Glenn Beck from the pulpit, like very
Speaker 3: very conservative, openly conservative, like that is like the Christian
Speaker 3: godly correct path. I guess like this is where it's
Speaker 3: tied in a bit more with some of like the
Speaker 3: some of like the Southern Baptist these type stuff, right
Speaker 3: where you have like anti gay conversion therapy like camps
Speaker 3: that they can send people to. Like no, like this
Speaker 3: is very very like Bill O'Reilly, very very Glenn Beck
Speaker 3: like that was that was the moment, right, this is
Speaker 3: this is two thousand and eight. The Antichrist has just
Speaker 3: been elected president of the United States, possibly literally, and
Speaker 3: even though they're up in Canada, this is still like
Speaker 3: concern number one on the like the transnational like Christian
Speaker 3: Christian world, so no, like extremely openly conservative to the
Speaker 3: point where it is it is being preached alongside the
Speaker 3: words of Jesus and Paul.
Speaker 2: You had a front row seat to sort of a
Speaker 2: shifting ground because you know, Southern Baptist Christian Christianity is
Speaker 2: kind of declining and it has I think has been
Speaker 2: supplanted by this quote unquote non denominational, totally set of networks.
Speaker 2: You know, there's a there's a term that some scholars
Speaker 2: use independent network Christianity where the leaders of the churches,
Speaker 2: they are non denominational, They're not a part of a hierarchy.
Speaker 2: They answer to no higher power other than God, you know,
Speaker 2: so their interpretation of God is basically the rule or
Speaker 2: or it is the authority.
Speaker 3: It's like a post Billy Graham era. Oh yeah, like
Speaker 3: networked churches, but are not part of like a coherent structure.
Speaker 3: They're kind of like terrorist cells. Essentially, they offer very
Speaker 3: similarly to like a cell network of terrorists. Try to
Speaker 3: remember what the with Like the most wild faith healings
Speaker 3: I've seen are the thing I think people were faith
Speaker 3: healed the most for is probably back pain a lot
Speaker 3: of back pain gets faith yield. Of course the right
Speaker 3: the odd person who's able to claim that, like you know,
Speaker 3: a faith healing cured their cancer, who then probably died
Speaker 3: three years later of cancer. But you also get faith
Speaker 3: field for a bunch of like smaller ailments, right and so,
Speaker 3: And someone will walk up to you, put hands on you.
Speaker 3: You might start convulsing like this like psychosomatic thing. Sometimes
Speaker 3: you'll pass out. A lot of people pass out. It
Speaker 3: becomes like this performative thing, like subconsciously. I remember there
Speaker 3: was there was people they were stationed where people would
Speaker 3: pass out with with little I think they're called modesty blankets,
Speaker 3: so that when they pass out, maybe your shirt will
Speaker 3: come up a little bit and someone will see a
Speaker 3: little bit of tummy. You can walk over and put
Speaker 3: the blanket over as you're recovering from you from your
Speaker 3: healing session. All this is happening during like essentially like
Speaker 3: an acoustic concert. So it creates a very peculiar vibe
Speaker 3: of people kind of poorly play musical instruments as other
Speaker 3: people like walk through like an auditorium and just start
Speaker 3: like passing out, and you just get this pile of
Speaker 3: bodies and as a as a ten year old? Do
Speaker 3: you think this is totally normal and fine? And then
Speaker 3: you later realize why you're into so much weird shit? Oops.
Speaker 2: Something I also covered in a previous episode in this
Speaker 2: series was a quote from the Seattle Public Health commissioner
Speaker 2: during a smallpox outbreak in the early nineteen hundreds. He
Speaker 2: called Seattle hotbed for anti vaccination and Christian science and
Speaker 2: various anti medical cults. So you know, we are kind
Speaker 2: of truly like reliving a period of history.
Speaker 3: I hate it when times a flat circle. This sucks.
Speaker 6: Why should I live in history?
Speaker 3: Huh?
Speaker 6: I don't want to know anything anymore.
Speaker 2: This is a world where nothing is solved.
Speaker 1: And someone once told me time is a flat circle.
Speaker 4: Everything we've ever done or will do, we're gonna do
Speaker 4: over and over and over again.
Speaker 3: Lone Star man, fucking Lone Star Texas. The one thing
Speaker 3: I I remembered through not being vaccinated as a kid,
Speaker 3: something I did develop And this was like behaviorally ingrained
Speaker 3: is a paralyzing fear of rust because you don't have,
Speaker 3: Because you don't have, the teton is shot. So even
Speaker 3: though we're told God, will you know keep us safe
Speaker 3: and healthy, we are also taught you have to stay
Speaker 3: like ten feet away from like rust. If you see
Speaker 3: rust on anything, like, you have to be on high
Speaker 3: alert because even though God should protect you, he might
Speaker 3: not if you get a rusty nail, like poking your finger.
Speaker 3: So rust is still something I'm like really afraid of,
Speaker 3: despite being vaccinated now, just because this was ingrained so young,
Speaker 3: which just kind of shows the kind of like a
Speaker 3: paradoxical thought process behind some of this sort of thing
Speaker 3: where it's okay if your kids aren't vaccinated, but you
Speaker 3: also have to teach them to like never get close
Speaker 3: to anything rusty because that could send them to the hospital.
Speaker 2: We'll return to my conversation with Gehar after a short
Speaker 2: ad break. So what was it like moving out of
Speaker 2: this science skeptic religious community.
Speaker 3: It's funny because when I moved away from this like
Speaker 3: conservad community in Canada, we moved to Portland, Oregon, which
Speaker 3: has its own anti vaccination problem, but from like the
Speaker 3: other side, So I was still around a whole bunch
Speaker 3: of people and kids who aren't vaccinated where there is
Speaker 3: frequent measles outbreaks, but it's it is more for that
Speaker 3: like crunchy hippie thing that then is kind of you know,
Speaker 3: converged with this evangelical side. But at that time it's
Speaker 3: interesting going from you know, one of these worlds to another.
Speaker 3: And in some ways the medical reality did not change
Speaker 3: that drastically.
Speaker 2: Right, But I'm wondering if you agree on this. My
Speaker 2: sense is that that form of anti vaccination belief, the
Speaker 2: sort of hippie crunchy stuff, it's dying. It's not only dying, yeah,
Speaker 2: it has not spread, it has not been turned into
Speaker 2: like a program that is far reaching.
Speaker 3: Those types of people have either evolved in their beliefs
Speaker 3: and have caught up with like consensus scientific understandings, or
Speaker 3: have married, you know, far right Christian husbands and have
Speaker 3: just gone full conservative, like they have split in twine.
Speaker 3: Who are much less likely to now find you know,
Speaker 3: someone who would describe themselves as like liberal or like leftist,
Speaker 3: who would hold these beliefs. If they're like, you know,
Speaker 3: like a forty year old mom with like you know,
Speaker 3: braids or beads in her hair like that, that is
Speaker 3: definitely less less likely to have that person beholding like
Speaker 3: anti vax beliefs now than it was twenty ten years ago.
Speaker 2: You just gave me the beautiful idea of making sure.
Speaker 2: I include an audio clip of the anti vax rasta
Speaker 2: Christian guy whose videos have been going viral. Have you
Speaker 2: seen these at all? No? Oh, man, you're gonna love.
Speaker 5: Thissolation projectively, projectively, in adjectively, jectivity.
Speaker 3: Oh that's good.
Speaker 2: It really does encapsulate this sort of you know, the
Speaker 2: quote unquote conspirituality.
Speaker 3: Even the way like Russell Brand has moved the past
Speaker 3: ten years. Right, it's a pretty clear example of this
Speaker 3: thing we've been talking about. Yes, how how he's now
Speaker 3: this weird Jesus guy who can't stop raping? Not not good?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is so fascinating that now. Yeah, like Maha
Speaker 2: is appealing to that that sort of like orphaned set
Speaker 2: of people that you were describing who have less of
Speaker 2: a political home.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: RFK Junior is similarly to Russell Brand as like a
Speaker 3: prime example of someone who used to be more of
Speaker 3: like a you know, left wing environmental lawyer who is
Speaker 3: now Trump's anti autism take away red number forty anti
Speaker 3: vax dude. And you know, another thing about growing up
Speaker 3: in these communities is like beyond vaccine hesitancy or anti
Speaker 3: vax beliefs, is also this like anti psychological beliefs like
Speaker 3: like like therapy or like or like psychoanalysis or like
Speaker 3: mental diagnosis are framed the same way, like you shouldn't
Speaker 3: need real therapy. You can talk to like a Christian
Speaker 3: counselor and you can pray, and that should be all
Speaker 3: you really need. You don't need to go to like
Speaker 3: a therapist or a psychologist. Like that delayed my understanding
Speaker 3: of like being autistic by like maybe fifteen years, which
Speaker 3: you know didn't serve younger gear very well in trying
Speaker 3: to un pack like social interactions as a as like
Speaker 3: a teenager or even like a preteen, because like I,
Speaker 3: you know, wasn't even aware of like the concept of
Speaker 3: like what autism actually is until so much later.
Speaker 2: So you're saying that childhood vaccinations didn't cause your autism.
Speaker 3: No, because I was never vaccinated as a kid, And
Speaker 3: yet here I am.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw a nice little sign recently that it
Speaker 2: fooled me because I read it too quickly, but it
Speaker 2: said childhood vaccinations cause adulthood.
Speaker 3: That's right, they sure to.
Speaker 2: Gair's experience is not unique. There are countless children who
Speaker 2: are raised in religious communities that skeew medical interventions in
Speaker 2: favor of their faith and in the power of God
Speaker 2: to heal them. These communities seek exemptions from vaccination requirements
Speaker 2: on either religious grounds or on the grounds of what
Speaker 2: they call medical freedom. Consider the children who attend Mercy
Speaker 2: Culture Preparatory, a private Christian school in Fort Worth. After
Speaker 2: the measles outbreak became nash news or report in the
Speaker 2: Dallas Morning News highlighted that the school had the lowest
Speaker 2: vaccination rate out of any private school in the state
Speaker 2: of Texas. And unlike the Copelands, who at the very
Speaker 2: least have facilitated vaccinations among their flock even as they've
Speaker 2: given contradictory messages from the pulpit, the leader of Mercy
Speaker 2: Culture was unapologetically thrilled at the news.
Speaker 6: Hey, guys, quick video. I just walked into an EMPC
Speaker 6: prep board meeting and there's these balloons in a surprise gift.
Speaker 6: I'm like, what's this going out? And I just found out.
Speaker 6: I'm a little behind in the news, I'm a little
Speaker 6: slow getting old, but I just found out we are
Speaker 6: the number one school in Texas for least vaccinations. And
Speaker 6: I guess the news got a hold of it and
Speaker 6: they were trying to spin it like it was some
Speaker 6: awful thing. But I just want to congratulate all of
Speaker 6: the family members of MC Prep that embrace freedom of
Speaker 6: health and they're not allowing government or science projects to
Speaker 6: affect how you live and lead your life. I know
Speaker 6: the time our world was shut down with insanity and
Speaker 6: people were fired from their job for forced vaccinations, and
Speaker 6: freedom is something that we take seriously, religious freedom, freedom
Speaker 6: of our health. And so shout out to MC Prep
Speaker 6: for being the least vaccinated school in Texas. Will take it,
Speaker 6: or as mercy cultures say, we celebrate it, we'll put
Speaker 6: on the board.
Speaker 2: State Representative Nate Shatzlin, who is also a pastor at
Speaker 2: the church and who has been a featured guest at
Speaker 2: Kenneth Copland's annual convention, spread a similar message in his
Speaker 2: own video that celebrated the news of low vaccination rates
Speaker 2: in their private school. Hey, what's going on?
Speaker 4: This is state revenue shafts line up standing in front
Speaker 4: of our Texas state capital. And I was alerted on
Speaker 4: x from a ex post from Bud Kennedy.
Speaker 2: Now you probably don't know who Bud Kennedy.
Speaker 4: Is, but he is a reporter for the Star Telegram
Speaker 4: in Fort Work Texas Now star telegrams losing followers by
Speaker 4: the thousands.
Speaker 2: It's crazy.
Speaker 4: However, he attacks Christian Step churches more than almost anyone
Speaker 4: else elt I know, and this post said that Russell
Speaker 4: Culture Preparatory, which is a private school in my district,
Speaker 4: also happens to be where I send my kids to school.
Speaker 4: He said they are the least vaccinated school in the
Speaker 4: state of Texas. Now, I was incredibly concerned for a
Speaker 4: couple of different reasons. I was concerned that number one,
Speaker 4: we just finding out about them, because the second concern
Speaker 4: is why haven't we celebrated this sooner? Look, I am
Speaker 4: so excited to say that Mercy Culture Prep is celebrating
Speaker 4: medical freedom, where we honor the wishes of moms and
Speaker 4: dads over any type of health official like Rachel Levine
Speaker 4: or so called public health expert like wood Community.
Speaker 2: This brazen lack of concern about the risks of the
Speaker 2: spread of measles, which has already killed multiple children, is
Speaker 2: concerning for many reasons. One of them is that it
Speaker 2: implicitly asserts that it's better for people to be unvaccinated.
Speaker 2: Another is that it effectively disregards the risk that vulnerable
Speaker 2: people face when diseases like measles spread unchecked, and when
Speaker 2: infused with this hardened belief that God can miraculously heal
Speaker 2: them and also that God makes no mistakes, it can
Speaker 2: lead some people like Peter, the Mennonite father of the
Speaker 2: first child to die from measles in over two decades,
Speaker 2: to believe that getting measles can actually make their communities stronger.
Speaker 2: This is basically survival of the fittest style quasi eugenic
Speaker 2: thinking with the veneer of religion. In the next episode,
Speaker 2: we will explore why anti vax beliefs and the policies
Speaker 2: now being pushed by the leading vaccine denier Rfgay Junior
Speaker 2: are effectively eugenic in nature and now the twisted history
Speaker 2: of eugenics and racist public health abuses in the United
Speaker 2: States has unfortunately buttressed the viral anti vax ideology we
Speaker 2: are dealing with today. Thanks for listening to episode three
Speaker 2: of Anti vaxx America for It Could Happen Here. Until
Speaker 2: next time, I'm Steve Monicelli. Thanks for listening.
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