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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephen Manicelli. I'm a journalist in Dallas and an

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Speaker 2: occasional contributor to Cool Zone Media. And this is episode

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Speaker 2: three of Anti VAXs America, a special five parts series

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Speaker 2: exploring anti vaccination beliefs in the United States through the

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Speaker 2: lens of the West Texas measles outbreak that has since

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Speaker 2: spread to several other states in the nation and claimed

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Speaker 2: three lives. One of those lives was the daughter of

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Speaker 2: a man named Peter, a member of a Mennonite community

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Speaker 2: in West Texas. For Peter, the death of his child

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Speaker 2: was basically God's will. He did an interview in which

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Speaker 2: he described that if it's God's plan, you know, that

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Speaker 2: is basically what he has to accept. But he also

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Speaker 2: continued to oppose vaccines, and his wife said that they

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Speaker 2: wouldn't recommend them to other parents. Now, Mennonites have been

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Speaker 2: singled out in a lot of the coverage about this

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Speaker 2: measles outbreak, given that the outbreak has centered in their

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Speaker 2: community in West Texas, and there's been a lot of

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Speaker 2: pushback with regard to the idea that Mennonites broadly speaking,

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Speaker 2: are opposed to vaccinations. There's nothing explicit in their theology

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Speaker 2: or worldview that opposes vaccinations on principle. But these are

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Speaker 2: individuals who hold strongly held beliefs regarding their religion, regarding

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Speaker 2: their theology, and what they believe is right for them

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Speaker 2: to do for their families and for their communities. It's

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Speaker 2: not merely a few sectarian Mennonite communities in the United

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Speaker 2: States that are hesitant to vaccinate their children in this way.

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Speaker 2: It's actually a much bigger problem among what we could call.

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Speaker 2: You know, some people might say mainstream evangelical Christians. Others

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Speaker 2: might specifically refer to it as non denominational charismatic Christianity.

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Speaker 2: But no matter which way you cut it, there is

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Speaker 2: a clear and observable relationship between conservative Christianity and anti

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Speaker 2: vaccination beliefs. Now, as a journalist in Texas, I've done

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Speaker 2: my fair share of reporting on conservative Christianity, particularly the

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Speaker 2: highly politicized strains of it that are popular in the

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Speaker 2: Lone Star State and in North Texas where I live.

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Speaker 2: I didn't grow up in one of these communities. I'm

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Speaker 2: an outsider, So to help me unpack how conservative Christianity

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Speaker 2: became so intertwined with this sort of anti vaccination movement.

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Speaker 2: I brought in a special guest with whom you may

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Speaker 2: be familiar.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Garrison Davis. I write about politics, extremism, and

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Speaker 3: how much fun it is to be in the twenty

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Speaker 3: first century for cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, in terms of what I hope to

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Speaker 2: hear from you, I mean, let's go back to your upbringing.

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Speaker 2: Tell me a little bit about the community you grew

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Speaker 2: up in and the sort of religious system that you

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Speaker 2: were brought up in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I grew up in a non denominational evangelical

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Speaker 3: community that was largely at least on like the leadership

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Speaker 3: side was transplanted from Texas to a well, not a

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Speaker 3: small town because it's actually the biggest town in the

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Speaker 3: in the province, but a relatively medium sized city, I

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Speaker 3: guess in Saskatchewan. Definitely an interesting mix of like Canadian

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Speaker 3: customs matched with the whole Texas vibe, but definitely the

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Speaker 3: type of like Bible belts, post fire and brimstone Christianity

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Speaker 3: that came out of Texas was like the dominant form

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Speaker 3: of Christianity, which was like preached from the pulpit and

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Speaker 3: like influenced all other life choices beyond just your Sunday

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Speaker 3: morning service or your Saturday night service, or your Wednesday

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Speaker 3: night service or your Tuesday morning service, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: So let's let's dig a little bit more into the

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Speaker 2: character of it. So, you know, in tech, we've got

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Speaker 2: you know, a wide variety of congregations and sub sets

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Speaker 2: and non denominational Christianity is absolutely the fastest growing flavor

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Speaker 2: of Christianity, not just in Texas but in the United States.

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Speaker 2: There's some good research about this, and some people describe

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Speaker 2: it as evangelical, some people describe it as charismatic. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: both of those descriptions are accurate. There could be some

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Speaker 2: differences between these types of churches. Some of them are

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Speaker 2: focused a lot on like things like prosperity gospel, Others

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Speaker 2: maybe towards more Southern Baptists esque style of preaching and theology,

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Speaker 2: and some really lean into maybe more like Pentecostal style

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Speaker 2: beliefs in miracles and supernatural power of God to directly

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Speaker 2: intervene in people's lives and things like that. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: how would you characterize your church and the community that

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Speaker 2: you were part of, Like, you know, was it common

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Speaker 2: for people to talk about spiritual healing or sort of

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Speaker 2: those miraculous interventions totally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, it was. It was kind of like

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Speaker 3: a Christian Chile. We certainly had some prosperity gospel elements.

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Speaker 3: You had some like Southern Baptist elements certainly when it

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Speaker 3: comes to like social views. But yeah, no, like the

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Speaker 3: spirit healing aspect, huge, huge people will get like healed

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Speaker 3: during services. People would like faint and pass out. They

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Speaker 3: would like bring in preachers from the States, or would

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Speaker 3: go go on these big like tours where you're you know,

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Speaker 3: both trying to like recruit people and then also like

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Speaker 3: offer these like miraculous healing services during these like you know,

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Speaker 3: five hour long sermons. So yeah, certainly a Pentecostal element

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Speaker 3: was pretty dominant, combined with like you know, focus on

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Speaker 3: the family type stuff, some Southern Baptist stuff that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's tracks with what I expected and the

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Speaker 2: sort of things that I see around here. Maybe you're

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Speaker 2: familiar with Kenneth Copeland.

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Speaker 3: Kenneth Copeland is how do I try this? So the

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Speaker 3: main pastor of the church I was from is the

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Speaker 3: uncle of a pastor in Oklahoma who used to run

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Speaker 3: a church called Church on the Move, and he is

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Speaker 3: very close personal friends with Kenneth Copeland, and I think

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Speaker 3: I've seen Copeland a few times in person, like dinners

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Speaker 3: and stuff. He was a pretty regular figure, I believe

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Speaker 3: preached at the church a few times I was younger,

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Speaker 3: but I know my dad's met him through works. My

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Speaker 3: dad worked for the church. And yeah, so no, very

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Speaker 3: very Kenneth Copeland d vibes.

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Speaker 2: Well, that makes sense because Kenneth Copeland, you know, he's

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Speaker 2: not only the wealthiest pastor in the United States, but

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Speaker 2: he's one of the most influential as well. And definitely

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Speaker 2: in North Texas where his home base is. He's got

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Speaker 2: a big church in you know, Terrant County, and I've

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Speaker 2: been to his annual convention, which is special time. So

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Speaker 2: you know, I totally understand the vibe that you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Then it also illustrates the vast reach of someone like

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Speaker 2: Kenneth Copeland for it to be all the way up

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Speaker 2: in Saskatchewan.

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Speaker 3: And like the interconnectedness because like the pastor of my

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Speaker 3: old church is American, born in Texas, is currently in

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Speaker 3: America because he's in hiding from Canadian authorities related to

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Speaker 3: a series of court cases and criminal complaints about abuse

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Speaker 3: in this church. So he's currently he's currently fled and

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Speaker 3: is in hiding somewhere in the US, hiding from His

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Speaker 3: Majesty's Royal Court.

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Speaker 2: Incredible.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he's also my step grandfather.

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Speaker 2: I'll get back to my conversation with Gahre here shortly,

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Speaker 2: but first an ad break. So before we go any further,

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Speaker 2: we need to talk a little bit more about Kenneth

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Speaker 2: copel One. So he's the wealthiest and one of the

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Speaker 2: most influential pastors in the United States, perhaps the world,

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Speaker 2: but he's also a highly political one. He's affiliated with

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Speaker 2: the Charismatic Christian movement, which is one of the fastest growing,

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Speaker 2: if not the fastest growing Christian movements in the United States,

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Speaker 2: and early on he lent his support to Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: in Donald Trump's first campaign in twenty sixteen. Three years

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Speaker 2: before that, in twenty thirteen, the church led by his

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Speaker 2: daughter Terry, which is called Eagle Mountain International, was at

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Speaker 2: the center of a measle's outbreak. At the time, the

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Speaker 2: church and its leaders were criticized for preaching against vaccinations,

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Speaker 2: and even as they set up vaccine clinics at the

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Speaker 2: back of the church. When things got really bad, they

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Speaker 2: continued to speak out against vaccinations in this way and

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Speaker 2: implying to their flock that they need to place their

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Speaker 2: faith not in medicine but in prayer and in God.

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Speaker 2: And when the COVID nineteen pandemic was first kicking off

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Speaker 2: in America, Kenneth Copeland spoke of the disease as a

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Speaker 2: sort of tool of Satan, but he actually called for vaccinations.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, I execute judgment on you, COVID nineteen.

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Speaker 3: I execute judgment on you, Satan. You destroyer, you killer,

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Speaker 3: you get out, you would break coper, you get confiscation.

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Speaker 2: I demand judgment on you. I modh man, I demand

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Speaker 2: a vaccination of Commadien.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 2: But Copeland's belief in spiritual healing and his ties to

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration seemingly led him to quickly return to

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Speaker 2: his old antics. He preached that COVID would be over

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Speaker 2: soon because God would destroy it.

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Speaker 4: OVID nineteen.

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Speaker 3: I'm go.

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Speaker 4: God, on you, on you.

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Speaker 5: You are destroying forever, and you will never be back

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Speaker 5: and you'll never lead that.

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Speaker 4: Thank you hard, Thank you a God. Let it happen.

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Speaker 3: Pause this.

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Speaker 2: Over the course of many sermons, Copeland compared the virus

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Speaker 2: to the flu. He suggested people who attended his services

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Speaker 2: could be healed in person, and asserted that the president's

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Speaker 2: opponents had quote opened the door for the pandemic with

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Speaker 2: their quote displays of hate against him. Later that fall,

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Speaker 2: with the pandemic fully raging across America, Copeland still held

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Speaker 2: his annual conference in Fort Worth, Texas. In August of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty, a television news report showed that no one

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Speaker 2: at the conference was wearing a mask, and in September

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, Copeland begged his view was to help

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Speaker 2: him fund the purchase of a new private jet that

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Speaker 2: would allow him to avoid travel restrictions that were still

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Speaker 2: in place around COVID nineteen and requiring vaccinations. He compared

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Speaker 2: those vaccination requirements for flying to the satanic quote mark

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Speaker 2: of the beasts. By the time that I attended Copeland's

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Speaker 2: annual convention in twenty twenty three, he had embraced the

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Speaker 2: likes of Mike Lindell, the election conspiracist who has promoted

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Speaker 2: junk cures for COVID while sewing doubts without vaccines. So

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Speaker 2: you know, I didn't grow up in one of these communities.

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Speaker 2: I had been to some megachurch sermons and services in

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Speaker 2: the past. I knew people who went to places like

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Speaker 2: Gateway Church, which is a huge one here in North Texas,

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Speaker 2: very politically involved in their founding pastor was just implicated

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Speaker 2: in you know, child.

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Speaker 3: Sex abuse, many such cases, many such cases.

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Speaker 2: And as an outsider in my mind, I directly link

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Speaker 2: sort of belief in spiritual healing with vaccine has it?

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Speaker 2: And see, yeah, because you know, there's there's this sense

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Speaker 2: that will, if God can heal you, why would you

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Speaker 2: need to rely on something like a vaccine, But also

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Speaker 2: that you know, you need to place your faith in

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Speaker 2: God more than man or the government.

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Speaker 3: It is more that thing. It's that by electing to

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Speaker 3: get a vaccine, that demonstrates that you do not have

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Speaker 3: faith in God like it's it's it's it's more so

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Speaker 3: like a larger theological issue beyond just like you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't we don't trust the science like I trust

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Speaker 3: God more than the science. It's that like even electing

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Speaker 3: to do that demonstrates this deeper, like more core belief

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Speaker 3: that you do not have the faith in God that

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Speaker 3: is adequate in order to like take care of you

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Speaker 3: your body and whatever He may have planned for you,

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Speaker 3: perhaps that includes getting measles and you'll you'll work through

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Speaker 3: that maybe or not, you know, as we're seeing now

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Speaker 3: in Texas a lot. But yeah, like it's it's not

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Speaker 3: just about like medical skepticism, science skepticism. It is this

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Speaker 3: deeper aspect that that more relates to someone's like individual

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Speaker 3: relationship and faith in God.

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Speaker 2: So when you were growing up, I mean, did you

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Speaker 2: pick up at all on this sort of skepticism with

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Speaker 2: regard to not you know, I guess modern science broadly,

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Speaker 2: but also medical interventions totally?

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Speaker 3: Totally Yeah, No, I mean like literally this the school

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Speaker 3: that I went to, which was which was a part

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Speaker 3: of this church, like I was, I was I was

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Speaker 3: taught from from like an American creationist curriculum for like

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Speaker 3: the first I guess like seven grades called ACE. There

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Speaker 3: was big ACE conferences that that like the teachers and

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Speaker 3: my dad would travel to the States for every year.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, like this stuff is literally like taught to

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Speaker 3: all the kids because in order to go to this

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Speaker 3: church you have to also send your kids to the school.

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Speaker 3: You are raised in this and like you have no

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Speaker 3: choice in the matter, and that that just becomes like

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Speaker 3: what is real? Like that just is reality, Like it's

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Speaker 3: it's not. It's not that there's like an alter alternative

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Speaker 3: to that. It's like like a nine year old kid,

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Speaker 3: like that just is what the world is. So like

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Speaker 3: what you're reading those textbooks, that just is truth. It's

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Speaker 3: very isolated environments, like you're you you aren't really fully

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Speaker 3: aware that there's like an alternative to that, and if

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Speaker 3: there is, it's like, what's the word? We didn't even

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Speaker 3: use words like like like atheists. I think secular was

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Speaker 3: was maybe the word. That was maybe the word that

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Speaker 3: they use, Like you can't you can't like listen to

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Speaker 3: like secular music or like be aware of like you know,

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Speaker 3: like like secular culture because that's satanic or it can

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Speaker 3: lead you away from God or it's a distraction from God,

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Speaker 3: you know that that sort of thing. But no, like yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's this is built in and like yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: very basic creationist stuff like answers in Genesis being like

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Speaker 3: the highest Bastion of science, which is like a fake

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Speaker 3: science website touted by creationists and evangelicals. But this also

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Speaker 3: extends to medical science as well. The same way you

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Speaker 3: believe the Earth is six thousand years old, you maybe

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Speaker 3: also don't believe in like cancer treatment right.

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Speaker 2: So to the extent that you can recall if you know,

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Speaker 2: or you know, if you're willing to share. Like, do

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Speaker 2: you recall if you were vaccinated as a child.

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Speaker 3: I was not. No, The first time I got vaccinated

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Speaker 3: was as an older teenager when I gained medical autonomy

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Speaker 3: and I was like, hey, I should probably get vaccinated.

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Speaker 3: Huh okay, because both like unplugging from these takes time.

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Speaker 3: Like I think my family got away from this community

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Speaker 3: when I was like eleven or twelve, But because I'm

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Speaker 3: like the oldest of all my siblings, this was the

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Speaker 3: most like baked into me, more so than my other siblings.

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Speaker 3: So like, even if you like get away from this physically,

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Speaker 3: you still have to like mentally detalk. You have to

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Speaker 3: realize that you were kind of in a cult, and

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Speaker 3: then you have to like deprogram yourself, and that like

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Speaker 3: takes years. So like I didn't like fully disconnect from

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Speaker 3: this style of Christianity and like, you know, Christianity in

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Speaker 3: general until like a few years after. So by the

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Speaker 3: time I was like a you know, middle to older

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Speaker 3: teenager is when I started like sort this type of

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Speaker 3: stuff out and eventually got caught up on those vaccines.

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Speaker 3: Luckily I never got chicken pox, although people did throw

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Speaker 3: chicken pox parties when I was a kid, which I

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Speaker 3: can recall the concept of, especially if like a baby

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Speaker 3: or a toddler or even like you know, like a

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Speaker 3: like like like a ten year old has chicken pox.

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Speaker 3: No one else's of course, is vaccinated for this in

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Speaker 3: this whole community. So if someone has chicken pox, you

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Speaker 3: will not just isolate them, You will actually encourage other

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Speaker 3: people to like hang out and play together with the

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Speaker 3: express intent of getting sick yourself as a form of

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Speaker 3: like natural immunization. And I think I was offered to

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Speaker 3: go to one of these chicken pox parties quote unquote,

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Speaker 3: I think as like a ten year old or something. Declined, Wow.

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Speaker 2: I mean, good on you for at least having that

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Speaker 2: wherewithal So, and you know, Saskatchewan and Canada are different

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Speaker 2: than the United States and Texas, and medical exemptions, exemptions

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Speaker 2: of conscience or religious medical exemptions are are a big thing.

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Speaker 2: And there's actually a bill in the state House right

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Speaker 2: now to expand that sort of thing with regard to vaccines.

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Speaker 2: I mean, was that something that was going on up there?

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Speaker 2: I mean, was just because were you in a private school?

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Speaker 2: You were kind of outside of any sort of regime

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Speaker 2: of accountability.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we were in the private school, and I know

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Speaker 3: people who worked in the private school did like lobbying

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Speaker 3: in the province to like keep their medical freedom, you know,

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Speaker 3: intact to make sure the state does not interfere. Though

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Speaker 3: I do remember when my family moved to the States,

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Speaker 3: throughout the immigration process, we had to fill out a

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Speaker 3: lot of those like religious exemption forms because you're supposed

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Speaker 3: to get vaccinated and make sure you're not carrying like

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Speaker 3: tuberculosis when you immigrate to a new country. But even

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Speaker 3: for those, there is like religious exemptions that if you

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Speaker 3: have enough money, you can pay.

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Speaker 2: For When was this like roughly timeline when you know,

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Speaker 2: when you were a child, when you're in private school?

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Speaker 2: Was the broad range?

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Speaker 3: This is? This is like the knots right, this is

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Speaker 3: the early two thousands. Yeah, I mean, like I'm in

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Speaker 3: my early twenties now.

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Speaker 2: Vaccine hes intency has clearly been a part of certain

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Speaker 2: conservative Christian congregations for some time.

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Speaker 3: Something I remember happening kind of because of like what

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Speaker 3: my parents were involved with at the time. Is you know,

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Speaker 3: there's on one side, this whole like theological side of

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Speaker 3: like not wanting to do vaccines or like unnecessary medical

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Speaker 3: procedures because of your faith in God. On the other hand,

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Speaker 3: kind of around like twenty ten, and like you know,

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Speaker 3: a few years before and after, we started to really

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Speaker 3: see kind of that aspect along with like the hippie

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Speaker 3: mom Facebook group aspect kind of collide right and like

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Speaker 3: this healthy you know, like organic natural like hippie mom

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Speaker 3: thing used to be more associated with, like you know,

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Speaker 3: people on the left, especially in the nineties, and you

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Speaker 3: started to see these two kind of polls converge around

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Speaker 3: twenty ten. Because this is like what happened with like

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Speaker 3: my two parents at the time, where like my dad

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Speaker 3: was more in the theological side, then my mom was

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Speaker 3: kind of more on like the the kind of like

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Speaker 3: crunchy side of things. And these things like combined this

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Speaker 3: new breed of evangelical Christianity that you see as like

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Speaker 3: very popular right now with like the tradwife angle combined

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Speaker 3: with like you know, crunchy like naturalistic organic stuff that

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Speaker 3: used to be left wing and is now like very

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Speaker 3: very right wing. You had a very very like conservative

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Speaker 3: like family values coded which which did not really used

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Speaker 3: to be the case as much, and that's kind of

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Speaker 3: like strengthened the anti VACS hold on this like section

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Speaker 3: of the population.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, this is incredible. You were part of

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Speaker 2: a church that basically had connections to Texas by way

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Speaker 2: of Kenneth Copeland, and you had mentioned, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of having a crunchy, more maybe left leaning mom. How

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Speaker 2: apparent in retrospect was sort of the political nature of

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Speaker 2: your church? Was it particularly political? You had mentioned lobbying,

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Speaker 2: but you know, lobbying isn't necessarily partisan.

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Speaker 3: They preached, like Glenn Beck from the pulpit, like very

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Speaker 3: very conservative, openly conservative, like that is like the Christian

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Speaker 3: godly correct path. I guess like this is where it's

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Speaker 3: tied in a bit more with some of like the

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Speaker 3: some of like the Southern Baptist these type stuff, right

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Speaker 3: where you have like anti gay conversion therapy like camps

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Speaker 3: that they can send people to. Like no, like this

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Speaker 3: is very very like Bill O'Reilly, very very Glenn Beck

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Speaker 3: like that was that was the moment, right, this is

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Speaker 3: this is two thousand and eight. The Antichrist has just

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Speaker 3: been elected president of the United States, possibly literally, and

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Speaker 3: even though they're up in Canada, this is still like

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Speaker 3: concern number one on the like the transnational like Christian

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Speaker 3: Christian world, so no, like extremely openly conservative to the

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Speaker 3: point where it is it is being preached alongside the

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Speaker 3: words of Jesus and Paul.

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Speaker 2: You had a front row seat to sort of a

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Speaker 2: shifting ground because you know, Southern Baptist Christian Christianity is

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Speaker 2: kind of declining and it has I think has been

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Speaker 2: supplanted by this quote unquote non denominational, totally set of networks.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a there's a term that some scholars

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Speaker 2: use independent network Christianity where the leaders of the churches,

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Speaker 2: they are non denominational, They're not a part of a hierarchy.

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Speaker 2: They answer to no higher power other than God, you know,

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Speaker 2: so their interpretation of God is basically the rule or

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Speaker 2: or it is the authority.

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Speaker 3: It's like a post Billy Graham era. Oh yeah, like

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Speaker 3: networked churches, but are not part of like a coherent structure.

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Speaker 3: They're kind of like terrorist cells. Essentially, they offer very

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Speaker 3: similarly to like a cell network of terrorists. Try to

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Speaker 3: remember what the with Like the most wild faith healings

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Speaker 3: I've seen are the thing I think people were faith

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Speaker 3: healed the most for is probably back pain a lot

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Speaker 3: of back pain gets faith yield. Of course the right

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Speaker 3: the odd person who's able to claim that, like you know,

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Speaker 3: a faith healing cured their cancer, who then probably died

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Speaker 3: three years later of cancer. But you also get faith

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Speaker 3: field for a bunch of like smaller ailments, right and so,

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Speaker 3: And someone will walk up to you, put hands on you.

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Speaker 3: You might start convulsing like this like psychosomatic thing. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: you'll pass out. A lot of people pass out. It

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Speaker 3: becomes like this performative thing, like subconsciously. I remember there

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Speaker 3: was there was people they were stationed where people would

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Speaker 3: pass out with with little I think they're called modesty blankets,

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Speaker 3: so that when they pass out, maybe your shirt will

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Speaker 3: come up a little bit and someone will see a

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Speaker 3: little bit of tummy. You can walk over and put

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Speaker 3: the blanket over as you're recovering from you from your

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Speaker 3: healing session. All this is happening during like essentially like

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Speaker 3: an acoustic concert. So it creates a very peculiar vibe

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Speaker 3: of people kind of poorly play musical instruments as other

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Speaker 3: people like walk through like an auditorium and just start

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Speaker 3: like passing out, and you just get this pile of

401
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Speaker 3: bodies and as a as a ten year old? Do

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Speaker 3: you think this is totally normal and fine? And then

403
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Speaker 3: you later realize why you're into so much weird shit? Oops.

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Speaker 2: Something I also covered in a previous episode in this

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Speaker 2: series was a quote from the Seattle Public Health commissioner

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Speaker 2: during a smallpox outbreak in the early nineteen hundreds. He

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Speaker 2: called Seattle hotbed for anti vaccination and Christian science and

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Speaker 2: various anti medical cults. So you know, we are kind

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Speaker 2: of truly like reliving a period of history.

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Speaker 3: I hate it when times a flat circle. This sucks.

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Speaker 6: Why should I live in history?

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Speaker 3: Huh?

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Speaker 6: I don't want to know anything anymore.

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Speaker 2: This is a world where nothing is solved.

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Speaker 1: And someone once told me time is a flat circle.

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Speaker 4: Everything we've ever done or will do, we're gonna do

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Speaker 4: over and over and over again.

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Speaker 3: Lone Star man, fucking Lone Star Texas. The one thing

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Speaker 3: I I remembered through not being vaccinated as a kid,

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Speaker 3: something I did develop And this was like behaviorally ingrained

421
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Speaker 3: is a paralyzing fear of rust because you don't have,

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Speaker 3: Because you don't have, the teton is shot. So even

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Speaker 3: though we're told God, will you know keep us safe

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Speaker 3: and healthy, we are also taught you have to stay

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Speaker 3: like ten feet away from like rust. If you see

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Speaker 3: rust on anything, like, you have to be on high

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Speaker 3: alert because even though God should protect you, he might

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Speaker 3: not if you get a rusty nail, like poking your finger.

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Speaker 3: So rust is still something I'm like really afraid of,

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Speaker 3: despite being vaccinated now, just because this was ingrained so young,

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Speaker 3: which just kind of shows the kind of like a

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Speaker 3: paradoxical thought process behind some of this sort of thing

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Speaker 3: where it's okay if your kids aren't vaccinated, but you

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Speaker 3: also have to teach them to like never get close

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Speaker 3: to anything rusty because that could send them to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: We'll return to my conversation with Gehar after a short

437
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: ad break. So what was it like moving out of

438
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: this science skeptic religious community.

439
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 3: It's funny because when I moved away from this like

440
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 3: conservad community in Canada, we moved to Portland, Oregon, which

441
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 3: has its own anti vaccination problem, but from like the

442
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: other side, So I was still around a whole bunch

443
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 3: of people and kids who aren't vaccinated where there is

444
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 3: frequent measles outbreaks, but it's it is more for that

445
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 3: like crunchy hippie thing that then is kind of you know,

446
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 3: converged with this evangelical side. But at that time it's

447
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,959
Speaker 3: interesting going from you know, one of these worlds to another.

448
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 3: And in some ways the medical reality did not change

449
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: that drastically.

450
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: Right, But I'm wondering if you agree on this. My

451
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: sense is that that form of anti vaccination belief, the

452
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 2: sort of hippie crunchy stuff, it's dying. It's not only dying, yeah,

453
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: it has not spread, it has not been turned into

454
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: like a program that is far reaching.

455
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: Those types of people have either evolved in their beliefs

456
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 3: and have caught up with like consensus scientific understandings, or

457
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 3: have married, you know, far right Christian husbands and have

458
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 3: just gone full conservative, like they have split in twine.

459
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 3: Who are much less likely to now find you know,

460
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 3: someone who would describe themselves as like liberal or like leftist,

461
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 3: who would hold these beliefs. If they're like, you know,

462
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,239
Speaker 3: like a forty year old mom with like you know,

463
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: braids or beads in her hair like that, that is

464
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 3: definitely less less likely to have that person beholding like

465
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 3: anti vax beliefs now than it was twenty ten years ago.

466
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 2: You just gave me the beautiful idea of making sure.

467
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: I include an audio clip of the anti vax rasta

468
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: Christian guy whose videos have been going viral. Have you

469
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: seen these at all? No? Oh, man, you're gonna love.

470
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 5: Thissolation projectively, projectively, in adjectively, jectivity.

471
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: Oh that's good.

472
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: It really does encapsulate this sort of you know, the

473
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: quote unquote conspirituality.

474
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 3: Even the way like Russell Brand has moved the past

475
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 3: ten years. Right, it's a pretty clear example of this

476
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: thing we've been talking about. Yes, how how he's now

477
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 3: this weird Jesus guy who can't stop raping? Not not good?

478
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is so fascinating that now. Yeah, like Maha

479
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: is appealing to that that sort of like orphaned set

480
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: of people that you were describing who have less of

481
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: a political home.

482
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 6: Yeah.

483
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 3: RFK Junior is similarly to Russell Brand as like a

484
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 3: prime example of someone who used to be more of

485
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 3: like a you know, left wing environmental lawyer who is

486
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: now Trump's anti autism take away red number forty anti

487
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 3: vax dude. And you know, another thing about growing up

488
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: in these communities is like beyond vaccine hesitancy or anti

489
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 3: vax beliefs, is also this like anti psychological beliefs like

490
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,719
Speaker 3: like like therapy or like or like psychoanalysis or like

491
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 3: mental diagnosis are framed the same way, like you shouldn't

492
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 3: need real therapy. You can talk to like a Christian

493
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 3: counselor and you can pray, and that should be all

494
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: you really need. You don't need to go to like

495
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 3: a therapist or a psychologist. Like that delayed my understanding

496
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: of like being autistic by like maybe fifteen years, which

497
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 3: you know didn't serve younger gear very well in trying

498
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: to un pack like social interactions as a as like

499
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 3: a teenager or even like a preteen, because like I,

500
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 3: you know, wasn't even aware of like the concept of

501
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 3: like what autism actually is until so much later.

502
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: So you're saying that childhood vaccinations didn't cause your autism.

503
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: No, because I was never vaccinated as a kid, And

504
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: yet here I am.

505
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw a nice little sign recently that it

506
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 2: fooled me because I read it too quickly, but it

507
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: said childhood vaccinations cause adulthood.

508
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: That's right, they sure to.

509
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 2: Gair's experience is not unique. There are countless children who

510
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: are raised in religious communities that skeew medical interventions in

511
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: favor of their faith and in the power of God

512
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: to heal them. These communities seek exemptions from vaccination requirements

513
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: on either religious grounds or on the grounds of what

514
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: they call medical freedom. Consider the children who attend Mercy

515
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: Culture Preparatory, a private Christian school in Fort Worth. After

516
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: the measles outbreak became nash news or report in the

517
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: Dallas Morning News highlighted that the school had the lowest

518
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 2: vaccination rate out of any private school in the state

519
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: of Texas. And unlike the Copelands, who at the very

520
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: least have facilitated vaccinations among their flock even as they've

521
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: given contradictory messages from the pulpit, the leader of Mercy

522
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: Culture was unapologetically thrilled at the news.

523
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 6: Hey, guys, quick video. I just walked into an EMPC

524
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 6: prep board meeting and there's these balloons in a surprise gift.

525
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 6: I'm like, what's this going out? And I just found out.

526
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 6: I'm a little behind in the news, I'm a little

527
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 6: slow getting old, but I just found out we are

528
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 6: the number one school in Texas for least vaccinations. And

529
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 6: I guess the news got a hold of it and

530
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 6: they were trying to spin it like it was some

531
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 6: awful thing. But I just want to congratulate all of

532
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 6: the family members of MC Prep that embrace freedom of

533
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 6: health and they're not allowing government or science projects to

534
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 6: affect how you live and lead your life. I know

535
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 6: the time our world was shut down with insanity and

536
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 6: people were fired from their job for forced vaccinations, and

537
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 6: freedom is something that we take seriously, religious freedom, freedom

538
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 6: of our health. And so shout out to MC Prep

539
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 6: for being the least vaccinated school in Texas. Will take it,

540
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 6: or as mercy cultures say, we celebrate it, we'll put

541
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 6: on the board.

542
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: State Representative Nate Shatzlin, who is also a pastor at

543
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 2: the church and who has been a featured guest at

544
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: Kenneth Copland's annual convention, spread a similar message in his

545
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: own video that celebrated the news of low vaccination rates

546
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: in their private school. Hey, what's going on?

547
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 4: This is state revenue shafts line up standing in front

548
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 4: of our Texas state capital. And I was alerted on

549
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 4: x from a ex post from Bud Kennedy.

550
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: Now you probably don't know who Bud Kennedy.

551
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 4: Is, but he is a reporter for the Star Telegram

552
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 4: in Fort Work Texas Now star telegrams losing followers by

553
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 4: the thousands.

554
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: It's crazy.

555
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 4: However, he attacks Christian Step churches more than almost anyone

556
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 4: else elt I know, and this post said that Russell

557
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 4: Culture Preparatory, which is a private school in my district,

558
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 4: also happens to be where I send my kids to school.

559
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 4: He said they are the least vaccinated school in the

560
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 4: state of Texas. Now, I was incredibly concerned for a

561
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 4: couple of different reasons. I was concerned that number one,

562
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 4: we just finding out about them, because the second concern

563
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 4: is why haven't we celebrated this sooner? Look, I am

564
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 4: so excited to say that Mercy Culture Prep is celebrating

565
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 4: medical freedom, where we honor the wishes of moms and

566
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 4: dads over any type of health official like Rachel Levine

567
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 4: or so called public health expert like wood Community.

568
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: This brazen lack of concern about the risks of the

569
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: spread of measles, which has already killed multiple children, is

570
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: concerning for many reasons. One of them is that it

571
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: implicitly asserts that it's better for people to be unvaccinated.

572
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: Another is that it effectively disregards the risk that vulnerable

573
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: people face when diseases like measles spread unchecked, and when

574
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: infused with this hardened belief that God can miraculously heal

575
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: them and also that God makes no mistakes, it can

576
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: lead some people like Peter, the Mennonite father of the

577
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 2: first child to die from measles in over two decades,

578
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: to believe that getting measles can actually make their communities stronger.

579
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: This is basically survival of the fittest style quasi eugenic

580
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: thinking with the veneer of religion. In the next episode,

581
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: we will explore why anti vax beliefs and the policies

582
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: now being pushed by the leading vaccine denier Rfgay Junior

583
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: are effectively eugenic in nature and now the twisted history

584
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: of eugenics and racist public health abuses in the United

585
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: States has unfortunately buttressed the viral anti vax ideology we

586
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: are dealing with today. Thanks for listening to episode three

587
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: of Anti vaxx America for It Could Happen Here. Until

588
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: next time, I'm Steve Monicelli. Thanks for listening.

589
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

590
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

591
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: Coolzonmedia dot com. Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

592
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever.

593
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 3: You listen to podcasts.

594
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it could happen here,

595
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening,