Speaker 1: Tragedies. I don't know what the word is of our
Speaker 1: society is that we're all so nice. We're all trying
Speaker 1: to be so nice. Dan's night. Come work in the
Speaker 1: news business. Welcome to the one you feed throughout time.
Speaker 1: Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think, ring true, and yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guests this week are Dan
Speaker 1: Harris and Oran Sofur. Dan was a previous guest and
Speaker 1: we discussed his great book Ten Percent Happier. In addition,
Speaker 1: Dan is the current anchor on the weekend edition of
Speaker 1: Good Morning America as well as Nightline. He has begun
Speaker 1: creating a series of courses based around ten percent Happier.
Speaker 1: One of those courses features or In Sofur Oran as
Speaker 1: a teacher and practitioner of Buddhist meditation, non violent communication,
Speaker 1: and semantics. He is also a specialist in the role
Speaker 1: of mindfulness in creating better conversation. Speaking of This conversation
Speaker 1: was recorded in Dan's office at the ABC Studios in
Speaker 1: the UI. Hi Dan, Hi Oran, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thanks yeah, great to be here. Thank you. I'm sitting
Speaker 1: here in Dan Harris's office in New York City and
Speaker 1: we are recording a podcast and we've got Orange J.
Speaker 1: Sofur from San Francisco area on the call. And Oran
Speaker 1: and Dan put together a course. It's part of the
Speaker 1: ten Percent Happier app that Dan has been working on,
Speaker 1: and it's called effective Communication. So today what we'll do
Speaker 1: is we will just talk through some of the key
Speaker 1: things in that course, and it really brings together mindfulness
Speaker 1: along with how to communicate better with the people in
Speaker 1: our lives. So we'll get to that in just a second,
Speaker 1: but we'll start like we always do, with the parable
Speaker 1: There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he
Speaker 1: thinks about it for a second, and he looks up
Speaker 1: at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start the show off by asking you or
Speaker 1: in how that parable applies to you in your life
Speaker 1: and in the work that you do. Thanks Eric, I've
Speaker 1: known that parable for many years, and I always find
Speaker 1: it kind of moving. I think for me, it speaks
Speaker 1: to kind of one of the fundamental facts of the
Speaker 1: way we're built that allows meditation to work, which is
Speaker 1: that our minds are malleable, and that we're sort of
Speaker 1: learning machines, and that the way we learn is through repetition.
Speaker 1: So whatever we do more of, we're more likely to
Speaker 1: continue to do. And that's not just on the external plane,
Speaker 1: but also internally, so the very mind states and thoughts
Speaker 1: and perceptions that we cultivate and feed by repeating them
Speaker 1: and thinking them again and again become our character, you know,
Speaker 1: becomes how we how we are in the world with
Speaker 1: ourselves and others. Excellent, Dan, I'm going to start with
Speaker 1: you by asking you you've got the ten percent Happier
Speaker 1: app which you've been partnering with experts in the mindfulness
Speaker 1: in meditation space to create courses. What made you want
Speaker 1: to reach out to Oran and start this course? Well,
Speaker 1: it started about six and nine months ago when I
Speaker 1: got a call from a little company, a startup company
Speaker 1: in Boston at the time. They were called Change Collective
Speaker 1: and they were doing mobile behavior change courses UM, and
Speaker 1: they wanted me to do one on meditation. I of course,
Speaker 1: I'm not a meditation teacher, so they they had me
Speaker 1: recruit somebody who actually knows what he's talking about, Joseph Goldstein,
Speaker 1: who is my meditation teacher. And we did a course,
Speaker 1: a two week how to Meditate course, and it did
Speaker 1: did quite well, and actually, UH as a result of that,
Speaker 1: the company decided to become a full time meditation and
Speaker 1: UH company. So we we renamed the whole thing tempercent
Speaker 1: Happier and started developing relationships with a bunch of teachers
Speaker 1: on a bunch of topics. So Joseph Goldstein is doing
Speaker 1: a bunch of several courses Sharon Salzburg Uh. And then
Speaker 1: or In had taught a course that one of my
Speaker 1: co founders had taken at the Berry Center for Buddhist Studies,
Speaker 1: which is in Barry, Massachusetts, and he had loved it.
Speaker 1: And so we got on the phone and started figuring out, um,
Speaker 1: could we do something on communication. At first, I wasn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't even really know what that meant. But then
Speaker 1: when being on the phone with Oran, it was obvious
Speaker 1: that mindlessness runs rampant through our communications and we're all
Speaker 1: we're constantly staying stupid ship and um that we regret. Uh.
Speaker 1: And you know anybody who's in a relationship who knows this, uh,
Speaker 1: And it happens at work, it happens in almost every
Speaker 1: arena of life. And so talk go or and he
Speaker 1: really had a very well thought out um system for
Speaker 1: improving this as sort of a training system for it.
Speaker 1: And also the more time you spent with him, you
Speaker 1: realized that he could, you know, probably solve the Middle
Speaker 1: East piece. Um. He's just very good at figuring out
Speaker 1: what is the right thing to say and what is
Speaker 1: the right time to say it? And the way in
Speaker 1: which to say it. Uh, So we developed this course.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't say that it has alleviated my
Speaker 1: propensity for being a schmuck, but it certainly has helped,
Speaker 1: and I think it can for lots of people. And
Speaker 1: the more you do the training, the better you'll be.
Speaker 1: Or And we still haven't agreed really on on the
Speaker 1: title for the course. Right there, we're calling an effective communication,
Speaker 1: but I think our goal longest has been to find
Speaker 1: a funnier title. Right, Yes, that's right. I still want
Speaker 1: to do how to argue better? But I think you
Speaker 1: didn't like that I was. I'm kind of open to
Speaker 1: that one. And maybe how to not be a schmuck?
Speaker 1: That's good, that's very good too. Yeah. I'm talking to
Speaker 1: a guy here in a few days, Brad Warner. He's
Speaker 1: a Zen Buddhist teacher. In his new bok is called
Speaker 1: Don't Be a Jerk, all about the teachings of Dojin. So, um,
Speaker 1: let's start off going into the course a little bit
Speaker 1: and or and you talk about there being a very
Speaker 1: key shift that happens at the beginning of this process,
Speaker 1: and that's basically to go from looking at confrontation is
Speaker 1: a negative thing to recognizing that those differences and disagreements
Speaker 1: can actually bring us closer together. Can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about that. Sure. Yeah, it's a very
Speaker 1: uh kind of common reaction to difference or conflict or
Speaker 1: disagreement that we tend to contract inside and get anxious.
Speaker 1: And that's there for a lot of different reasons, um,
Speaker 1: not the least of which are our cultural conditioning and
Speaker 1: the experiences that we've each had in life. So our
Speaker 1: cultural conditioning is that whenever there's a difference, there's only
Speaker 1: one of two options. Someone's going to get what they
Speaker 1: want and someone's not to get what they want. It's
Speaker 1: a win lose paradigm that most of us have grown
Speaker 1: up with. And then based on that paradigm, we don't
Speaker 1: learn the tools to actually understand one another and really
Speaker 1: navigate a situation and find something that works for both
Speaker 1: people and really through that process actually understand one another
Speaker 1: better or learn something new. So because we have we
Speaker 1: are in conditioned with this way of seeing things and
Speaker 1: don't learn the tools to do it differently, then we
Speaker 1: create experiences that confirm that you know, from the time
Speaker 1: that we're very little uh, and adults may be intervened
Speaker 1: and say you have to do this or the other
Speaker 1: person has to do that. And so we learned very
Speaker 1: quickly that when our needs are challenged are threatened, uh
Speaker 1: that someone's gonna win, someone's gonna lose, and we know
Speaker 1: which side of that we want to be on. So
Speaker 1: that creates a whole conditioning around conflict, and then our
Speaker 1: nervous system actually gets patterned in that way where it
Speaker 1: stops being an idea and it actually starts being a
Speaker 1: physiological process that when there's tension, and depending on who
Speaker 1: that's with, it might be more pronounced. We start to
Speaker 1: have a whole response inside emotionally of however we've learned
Speaker 1: to meet that situation. So it might be responding with anger,
Speaker 1: it might be responding with fear or anxiety. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of the framework that most of us come to
Speaker 1: this stuff with, and that there's the possibility slowly of
Speaker 1: having different experiences and realizing that there's a whole another
Speaker 1: way to relate to those situations that can lead to,
Speaker 1: like you said, more understanding, more connection, more closeness. You know.
Speaker 1: I'll say one more thing here, which is that I
Speaker 1: think if we reflect on our lives, most of us
Speaker 1: have at least a few experiences where we've had a disagreement,
Speaker 1: we've as some difference of opinion large or small with
Speaker 1: someone that we have a steady relationship with, and we
Speaker 1: work it through and we actually come out on the
Speaker 1: other side closer, stronger, understanding each other better. Yeah. I agree.
Speaker 1: I mean I've traditionally been the one who falls into
Speaker 1: the fear category and the give the other person exactly
Speaker 1: what they want category just to make the situation go away. UM,
Speaker 1: which tends, you know, to to what you're saying, to
Speaker 1: always be a losing situation for me. And the times
Speaker 1: that I have gotten better at being able to engage
Speaker 1: in a dialogue and use some of the principles like
Speaker 1: you've got in this course, I suddenly realized we come
Speaker 1: out on the other end of that not only like
Speaker 1: having solved that problem, but as closer as people. And
Speaker 1: I'm always sort of surprised by that because it goes
Speaker 1: so against, like you said, my long term conditioning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, one of the keys is just reflecting
Speaker 1: on that and recognizing that that's possible. And then as
Speaker 1: we get some of these tools. Um, one of the
Speaker 1: things that's sort of the hardest to convince people in
Speaker 1: learning these tools is to start small. Everyone wants to
Speaker 1: take just the littlest bit that they understand and apply
Speaker 1: it to the hardest situation in their life, and it's
Speaker 1: not a great way to learn, you know. It's in
Speaker 1: some ways we want to We wanna build up gradually
Speaker 1: to those really difficult situations where we actually have enough
Speaker 1: mastery of our own emotions and the communication skills that
Speaker 1: we can come out of those situations successful. The otherwise
Speaker 1: we end up just feeling defeated or frustrated or you know,
Speaker 1: kind of throwing the whole thing out. So the analogy
Speaker 1: I always use is it's like if you're trying to
Speaker 1: learn how to swim, you don't jump in the ocean
Speaker 1: on stormy day. You're going to pool and you go
Speaker 1: on the shallow end where you can learn how to
Speaker 1: actually do the strokes. And so in the same way,
Speaker 1: when we learning communication skills, which are really complex and
Speaker 1: there's a lot going on when we're talking with someone else,
Speaker 1: that we want to do it in situations that are
Speaker 1: relatively low stakes, that are safe at first, so we
Speaker 1: can actually get some facility and ease with the tools,
Speaker 1: and then slowly, little by little we apply them to
Speaker 1: more situations. So what is the role of mindfulness in communication? Dan?
Speaker 1: How do these things tie together? A minbleness, just the
Speaker 1: ability to know what's happening in your head without being
Speaker 1: carried away by it. And we're constantly beset and besieged
Speaker 1: by emotions and urges and desires while we're in conversation
Speaker 1: with other people. The urge might be to check your BlackBerry,
Speaker 1: or to have a say as sharp, judgmental, critical thing
Speaker 1: or um not to listen or uh, any number of
Speaker 1: any number of different factors. And so just to be
Speaker 1: aware of what's happening in your mind while you're in
Speaker 1: conversation with somebody is to up the odds that you
Speaker 1: won't be yanked around by it. We had Carrie Patterson
Speaker 1: on the show who wrote a book called Crucial Conversations,
Speaker 1: which is an excellent book. One of the things they
Speaker 1: say is just be aware that you're in a crucial
Speaker 1: conversation and bring the mindfulness and awareness to what's happening
Speaker 1: and what your reaction is in those situations. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I think that's true. Easier said than done,
Speaker 1: of course, but I mean, or do you think I
Speaker 1: got that right, Yeah, Yeah, definitely, I think that's that's
Speaker 1: kind of the foundation Dan. For me, it goes further
Speaker 1: than that, because you know, mindfulness, it's one analogy I
Speaker 1: also us is mindfulness like a magnifying glass, right, that
Speaker 1: helps us to see things more clearly, And so in
Speaker 1: adtition to being able to see what's going on in
Speaker 1: our mind during a conversation and as you say, not
Speaker 1: be yanked around by it, it actually gives us a
Speaker 1: really steady instrument to examine our conditioning, our patterns, how
Speaker 1: do we behave in conversations? What are what are our defaults,
Speaker 1: you know, um, and to actually start to tease apart
Speaker 1: not just the grossest thoughts on the surface that are happening,
Speaker 1: but how are we feeling, where is that coming from?
Speaker 1: What matters to us? What are we needing in a situation?
Speaker 1: What do we want to actually have happened next in
Speaker 1: a conversation, and how do we ask for that in
Speaker 1: a skillful way. So it really helps us to see
Speaker 1: and break things down more clearly in a dialogue relationship
Speaker 1: as well as just in ourselves. The neat thing about
Speaker 1: these communication tools is that we can use them for
Speaker 1: anything really, not just our conversations, because there a way
Speaker 1: of understanding our own experience to be able to know
Speaker 1: how we're reacting to something and have a different framework
Speaker 1: for connecting with that. So a lot of the students
Speaker 1: that I work with, we focus on conversations and relationships,
Speaker 1: but there's a whole segment of the work that's really
Speaker 1: just about understanding oneself better and having more clarity about
Speaker 1: what what we're feeling and needing and bringing to a situation,
Speaker 1: whether that involves someone else or not. And here's the
Speaker 1: rest of the interview with Dan Harris and Oran so
Speaker 1: Fur the course that you guys developed. What I noticed
Speaker 1: is in the practice section where or in your leading meditations,
Speaker 1: there's a mindfulness component in the way we maybe are
Speaker 1: traditionally thought of approaching mindfulness. And then there's a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff in there about becoming more mindful of what
Speaker 1: what's happening inside of us um as far as emotions
Speaker 1: and what we actually want out of situations. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: the formal mindfulness practice really helps us to develop the
Speaker 1: first foundation of any kind of communication or relational skills,
Speaker 1: which is the ability to be present, the ability to
Speaker 1: really be here in the moment, know what's happening, stay
Speaker 1: oriented and not get lost in our impulses and reactions.
Speaker 1: And then as that awareness grows and stabilizes, we can
Speaker 1: take it and apply it to different areas of our
Speaker 1: internal experience. And that's the guided practice throughout the two
Speaker 1: weeks does, as it takes us through step by step
Speaker 1: building our mindfulness, strengthening the awareness, and then applying it
Speaker 1: to different components of our experience. So a word that
Speaker 1: keeps popping up to me in interviews and conversations and
Speaker 1: books I'm reading lately, and it found its way into
Speaker 1: year course also is around curiosity. You talk about getting
Speaker 1: into a position of curiosity. What's the role of curiosity
Speaker 1: in having a better conversation? For me, it's one of
Speaker 1: those central factors and it's the outcome of that key
Speaker 1: shift that we started talking about. You know, curiosity is
Speaker 1: really an intention. It's about our motivation, right uh. And
Speaker 1: to be curious means we have to recognize the possibility
Speaker 1: that there's something we don't know, you know, that there's
Speaker 1: something we could learn here, that there's another way of
Speaker 1: looking at things, and so it's kind of a whole
Speaker 1: inner orientation to life really, you know, it's one of
Speaker 1: the core um factors in mindfulness practice is the ability
Speaker 1: to be interested. And if you don't have curiosity city interesting,
Speaker 1: it's really difficult to practice mindfulness for more than five
Speaker 1: minutes because things get very very tedious and boring very quickly.
Speaker 1: It's like another breath and other thoughts, another pain in
Speaker 1: my back, you know. So um this This is another
Speaker 1: area in which the two really support each other because
Speaker 1: we strengthened curiosity through mindfulness practice, and then we bring
Speaker 1: that same factor to our conversations, and it's what allows
Speaker 1: us to actually start to connect with the other person.
Speaker 1: When someone else really senses that were genuinely interested in
Speaker 1: understanding them, it changes the whole space of a conversation.
Speaker 1: It really aligns us with one another so that we're
Speaker 1: no longer fighting or trying to one up each other
Speaker 1: or be right. But the other person sense it's like,
Speaker 1: oh you you know, you're really trying to understand me,
Speaker 1: and then we can start to actually work together. So
Speaker 1: it's it's yeah, go ahead, damn. I was just gonna say,
Speaker 1: what if you use the factor of interest or curiosity
Speaker 1: to figure out what is driving the other person so
Speaker 1: that you can completely vanquish them in the conversation. I
Speaker 1: would call that a misapplication of the tools. And you know,
Speaker 1: the thing about human beings is that we're pretty sensitive,
Speaker 1: and sometimes we don't. We're not fully conscious of how
Speaker 1: sensitive we are, but I think we pick things up.
Speaker 1: And so most people can can tell intuitively, if not consciously,
Speaker 1: when something is genuine. And so if there's that hidden
Speaker 1: agenda of getting curious in order to win or like
Speaker 1: you say, vanquished the other person or assert yourself over
Speaker 1: them and kind of dominate them, uh, that's called manipulation, right,
Speaker 1: And generally people feel that they feel when that sense
Speaker 1: of interest is in gener you and right, so it's
Speaker 1: likely to not necessarily have the really desired effect and
Speaker 1: shift in the conversation. You know. The other the other
Speaker 1: thing you're pointing to, Dan is kind of the whole
Speaker 1: question of like, well, if I have the power to
Speaker 1: get my needs met and win in a conversation, why not? Right? Um? There,
Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of reasons why not, um,
Speaker 1: from the from sort of the enlightened case for self interest,
Speaker 1: from from that side of things. You know, when we
Speaker 1: use our power two dominate to get what we want
Speaker 1: from someone or from a situation in that way, there's
Speaker 1: it comes at a cost, and one of the one
Speaker 1: of the factor of the costs is in the quality
Speaker 1: of trust and goodwill in the relationship. So if it's
Speaker 1: a relationship that we care about it any way or
Speaker 1: that we need to continue in some way, we're going
Speaker 1: to lose a certain amount of that person's trust in us.
Speaker 1: And that makes it harder to work together. That makes
Speaker 1: it harder to get things done. We if we're supervising
Speaker 1: someone or managing someone and we kind of forced them
Speaker 1: to do things our way without including their input, their energy, UM,
Speaker 1: we lose their sense of intrinsic motivation because they feel like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't have to say anyway, so you know why try?
Speaker 1: And then you know, any anyone who's ever supervised or
Speaker 1: managed people knows how hard it is to work with
Speaker 1: others who aren't intrinsically motivated, who don't want to take
Speaker 1: the initiative and work. But a sure fire way to
Speaker 1: create those conditions is to force people to do what
Speaker 1: you want. You know, very very quickly, they will stop
Speaker 1: giving you any energy that they don't have to um.
Speaker 1: And the and then another cost that's uh, that's really
Speaker 1: key is especially in work situations. Um, but even in
Speaker 1: personal situations, is that we lose a certain amount of creativity.
Speaker 1: Any one of us really can only see things from
Speaker 1: a certain limited perspective, and so the more perspectives we include,
Speaker 1: the more possibility there is for creating something unexpected and beautiful,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of more m more creative that we
Speaker 1: might not have thought of our scene. You know. And
Speaker 1: for me, when I talk about this stuff, I just
Speaker 1: really think about where we are kind of on the planet,
Speaker 1: in our society today, the kinds of issues that we're facing,
Speaker 1: and recognizing that you know, no no one person is
Speaker 1: going to solve the problems we're facing. We need that
Speaker 1: kind of ability to hear one another and think creatively
Speaker 1: and collaboratively in new ways. So developing these tools helps
Speaker 1: us to be able to do that. Right. So, is
Speaker 1: it safe to say or in that you will not
Speaker 1: be partnering with Dan on his new course Manipulation and Mindfulness.
Speaker 1: I love that course manipulation. You know, I might actually
Speaker 1: have to partner with Dan to make sure that teaching
Speaker 1: people both sides of the story. There somebody needs to
Speaker 1: keep an eye on me. I would just say, this
Speaker 1: issue of curiosity just brings the mind. Something interesting that
Speaker 1: Joseph Goldstein once said to me that there is in
Speaker 1: his mind at least a difference between curiosity and interest.
Speaker 1: The curiosity it has a sense of kind of edginess
Speaker 1: to it, Pattina, of or maybe more of of desire
Speaker 1: or his interest. It has smoother connotations, more quantumous connotation.
Speaker 1: I throw that in there for what it's worth. Sure, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I haven't heard him make that distinction before. It's uh,
Speaker 1: I think it's it is valuable to distinguish between those
Speaker 1: the presence of desire and craving right in how we're
Speaker 1: relating to something, I use the term synonymously and in
Speaker 1: the realm of communication. I find that curiosity is something
Speaker 1: that people can kind of understand very quickly and easily,
Speaker 1: and it's a it's a it's a good way for
Speaker 1: people to um access that kind of natural interest. Because
Speaker 1: we understand curiosity, we understand sometimes even how to get there.
Speaker 1: It's like, what can I get just kind of get
Speaker 1: curious about? This is a question that people can ask
Speaker 1: themselves very easily. When we start talking about the refinements
Speaker 1: of meditation practice where we're dealing with our own mind,
Speaker 1: then we start to be able to feel those subtle differences, Dan,
Speaker 1: and I think Joseph's talking about where curiosity is there's
Speaker 1: this kind of leaning forward and maybe a little bit
Speaker 1: of a wanting to get something from it, whereas interest
Speaker 1: can have that more pure quality of just wanting to
Speaker 1: come close to an experience and know it for its
Speaker 1: own sake. I've always been curious about how one generates
Speaker 1: curiosity or interest, because you know, on the cushion, uh
Speaker 1: sometimes ship gets ship gets really boring, you know, and
Speaker 1: um so, how how do you how do you make
Speaker 1: it interesting and say, you know, it's an as you're
Speaker 1: ever in conversation with somebody and it's just uh irredeemable.
Speaker 1: Um so what was your advice there? Sorry to hijack
Speaker 1: your podcast, No, no, it's fine, or I think to
Speaker 1: tag onto that. Or you're in a conversation with somebody
Speaker 1: where you've heard them say this same thing you know
Speaker 1: a thousand times before, how do you how do you
Speaker 1: approach that fresh become curious about something you that you've
Speaker 1: heard a lot. I love these questions are great. So
Speaker 1: maybe we'll start with the outer and then we'll work
Speaker 1: towards the inner. We'll start with the relationship communication question.
Speaker 1: One of the most kind of general and universe certally
Speaker 1: applicable ways to get curious about someone else something they're
Speaker 1: saying a conversation is to listen for what matters, So
Speaker 1: to ask yourself in some way, what does this person need?
Speaker 1: What are they valuing? What? What matters to them here?
Speaker 1: You know, and this is based on the fundamental kind
Speaker 1: of principle of human psychology that we're rational creatures for
Speaker 1: the most part, motivated by meeting our needs, and it's
Speaker 1: not a way that we usually look at or understand situations.
Speaker 1: And so just remembering that and holding that question what
Speaker 1: matters here is a way that we can get curious,
Speaker 1: you know. So if someone is saying you know, we've
Speaker 1: heard someone say something many many times, and then we
Speaker 1: start asking that question, well, what matters here? We start
Speaker 1: listening in a different way. We start listening for that
Speaker 1: sense of like, well, why is this person repeating that?
Speaker 1: What do they need? You know? And then there's the
Speaker 1: possibility of us actually responding in a different way. We
Speaker 1: might actually start to give that person what they need,
Speaker 1: maybe the kind of empathy that they're longing for or
Speaker 1: the kind of understanding that they're really wanting and then
Speaker 1: something can shift. So there's there's a caveat here also
Speaker 1: on the relational side of being in a conversation where
Speaker 1: we're having trouble continuing to listen, and there's just kind
Speaker 1: of a whole another side of that, which is bringing
Speaker 1: a conversation back to life, right, because if you think
Speaker 1: about it, if you were talking to someone and they
Speaker 1: didn't want to listen, wouldn't you want to know that?
Speaker 1: Wouldn't you want to stop talking? Right? It's not very
Speaker 1: enjoyable or nourishing for us to talk to someone when
Speaker 1: they don't want to listen. So we can take that
Speaker 1: in turn it around and go, gee, you know, I
Speaker 1: really don't want to listen to this person anymore. It's
Speaker 1: probably not serving either if that's the case, and so
Speaker 1: then finding a way to skillfully interrupt actually and bring
Speaker 1: the conversation back to life, you know, to say something like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just forgive me for interrupting for a second,
Speaker 1: but I'm I'm actually I'm having trouble following you a
Speaker 1: little bit and wonder, um, what's going on for you
Speaker 1: right now? Ah, Or we could tell them, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd really like to be able to stay more connected
Speaker 1: to you while we're talking, and I'm just noticing my
Speaker 1: attention wandering and wonder if I could just share what's
Speaker 1: going on for me for a little bit, you know,
Speaker 1: just kind of change things up in a way and
Speaker 1: doing that in a way that we're letting the person
Speaker 1: know that our motivation is to actually make this situation
Speaker 1: more enjoyable and alive for both of us. So I
Speaker 1: just said a lot. Maybe I can pause there and
Speaker 1: see if the meditation questions still relevant or if either
Speaker 1: of you want to want to chime in with anything.
Speaker 1: I think it is. I've want to get to Dan's questions,
Speaker 1: but I want to probe a little further on what
Speaker 1: you're saying here, because there are times that whether it's
Speaker 1: that I'm in a bad mood, I'm tired, a variety
Speaker 1: of different things where maybe I don't particularly want to
Speaker 1: have a conversation. Would you recommend in that case being
Speaker 1: completely transparent about that and saying, hey, look, I really care,
Speaker 1: but right now is not the time, or you know,
Speaker 1: because I think what a lot of us do is
Speaker 1: just sort of go into the nod yes mode while
Speaker 1: the conversation happens and we're somewhere else inside. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's one of the great um, I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's great, but one of the kind of endemic tragedies.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the word is of our society,
Speaker 1: is that we're all so nice. We're all trying to
Speaker 1: be so nice. Dan's not come work in the news business.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, yeah, yeah, and you know that kind of
Speaker 1: nodding and going along with it. It's so draining, right,
Speaker 1: it's so draining to our energy, and so just recognizing
Speaker 1: again the cau ust that that has on us, and
Speaker 1: to really just take a step back and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: why am I not being transparent here? Why am I
Speaker 1: not speaking up for myself and taking care of what
Speaker 1: I need or at least trying to in this moment?
Speaker 1: And oftentimes it's just that we want to avoid the
Speaker 1: minor discomfort of being real, you know, because we're not
Speaker 1: used to it. We're not used to being really honest
Speaker 1: and open with one another. And yet when we do,
Speaker 1: there's so much energy there, there's so much juice there, right,
Speaker 1: the very kind of conversation that feels so dead as
Speaker 1: soon as you know, we're accusing the other person of
Speaker 1: saying the same thing over and over again and boring
Speaker 1: us to death. But we're kind of doing the same thing,
Speaker 1: right if we're not being real, if we're kind of
Speaker 1: suppressing what's going on for us. So yes, absolutely, I
Speaker 1: would say find a way to speak up and be
Speaker 1: real and say, hey, listen, you know, I'm so sorry
Speaker 1: about this, but I'm just so exhausted right now, and
Speaker 1: I'm fine doing it really hard to sustain engage in
Speaker 1: the conversation, and that's probably not going to be fun
Speaker 1: for either of us. Can we just kind of take
Speaker 1: a break and talk about this later. I'm worried Dan
Speaker 1: might say that he had to get up at three
Speaker 1: this morning. I'm actually just sitting here admiring you're the
Speaker 1: creativity with which you address these situations that most of
Speaker 1: us just let linger because we don't want to brush
Speaker 1: up against the What is the minor inconvenience of being real?
Speaker 1: What was the word you the phraseology there, the discombined
Speaker 1: or discomfort of being real? I like that phrase. We're
Speaker 1: allergic to discomfort or the other side of it, right,
Speaker 1: We're addicted to comfort in our society, and that's you know,
Speaker 1: that's another kind of great benefit of mindfulness practice is
Speaker 1: that it gets uncomfortable. You know, it's uncomfortable to sit
Speaker 1: still for half an hour forty five minutes. So we
Speaker 1: we build up that, we increase our tolerance for discomfort,
Speaker 1: we increase our capacity for being able to feel and
Speaker 1: be balanced with discomfort, and then that translates into our
Speaker 1: relationships where we can tolerate discomfort long enough to actually
Speaker 1: come through the other side and find some more useful
Speaker 1: ways of relating. I find, speaking off over that that
Speaker 1: it's not so much that I'm saying much more diplomatic
Speaker 1: or clever things. Not clever in the sense of of
Speaker 1: of witty, but clever in the sense of non confrontational
Speaker 1: things or um. It's that it's that I'm actually not
Speaker 1: saying the thing I want to say at all, um,
Speaker 1: because I have enough mindfulness to know that that thing
Speaker 1: that I feel like saying is just going to ruin
Speaker 1: the next forty eight hours of my marriage, um, you know.
Speaker 1: And I can feel that my wife's getting on my nerves,
Speaker 1: and in some ways it's more painful because I'm actually
Speaker 1: more aware of it than I used to be. Uh,
Speaker 1: But because I'm able to see, you know, the storms
Speaker 1: on the Doppler radar, as it were, I'm ten per
Speaker 1: cent less likely to just pop off. That seems in
Speaker 1: many ways to be the better part of valor in
Speaker 1: some and some percentage of the circumstances. Yeah, completely, I
Speaker 1: mean you're you're pointing to that, that ability to actually
Speaker 1: restrain ourselves right from saying something reactively or saying something
Speaker 1: that's not going to be helpful for either one of us.
Speaker 1: You know, then the communication tools there come in, where like,
Speaker 1: is that sense of when we do want to say
Speaker 1: something or when we do need to say something, then
Speaker 1: how do we understand what's happening inside of us and
Speaker 1: say it in a way that's going to help the
Speaker 1: other person hear it? You know? Sometimes even just having
Speaker 1: that having that frame in mind, how can I say
Speaker 1: this in such a way that the other person is
Speaker 1: going to hear it and understand it right can go
Speaker 1: a long way. It's the difference between um, God, I
Speaker 1: thought of the best example last night and see if
Speaker 1: I can remember it. Um, It's the difference between saying
Speaker 1: like you're selfish and I really want some more attention.
Speaker 1: You know, It's just like we're saying the same thing
Speaker 1: in some way, but how much more likely is it
Speaker 1: for for us to get what we want when we
Speaker 1: speak about our own experience. You know, I really want
Speaker 1: some more attention versus you're being so selfish, so understanding
Speaker 1: ourselves better and being able to to speak in a
Speaker 1: way that's going to make it easier for the other
Speaker 1: person here and more likely that we're actually gonna get
Speaker 1: what we want or find some sort of understanding. Right,
Speaker 1: And I want to go into that. You talk about
Speaker 1: how we say I feel um, and then we throw
Speaker 1: in an action word. I feel like you're attacking me.
Speaker 1: But I want to go into that in a second.
Speaker 1: But I really think this area that we've been poking
Speaker 1: around in about you know, not saying certain things, are
Speaker 1: saying certain things, is really an interesting one to me
Speaker 1: because I think, maybe differently from from Dan, I learned
Speaker 1: I think a while ago to not do the spouting
Speaker 1: off piece like I learned to just you know, kind
Speaker 1: of clamp my mouth shut. Differently from Dan's. We'll only
Speaker 1: recently learned that that's what he said. I mean, you
Speaker 1: may be giving me more credit that I deserve. I've
Speaker 1: partially learned it, episodically learned it, but I found that
Speaker 1: that creates its own sort of problems because then what
Speaker 1: is coming through as some sort of vague blankness and resentment.
Speaker 1: And so in either of those situations, UM, I think
Speaker 1: or on what you're suggesting is we have to find
Speaker 1: some way to communicate that maybe this isn't the right
Speaker 1: time for us, or that we're you know, how do
Speaker 1: we how do we let somebody know where we are
Speaker 1: in that point without being hurtful, without just sort of,
Speaker 1: you know, biting our tongue the whole time. It seems
Speaker 1: like there's a difference between I was thinking about this
Speaker 1: as I was saying before, a difference between restraint and squashing, right,
Speaker 1: unconstructive squash. Yeah. I mean there are two things on
Speaker 1: what you're saying, Eric Dan you're talking to the first,
Speaker 1: which is that that very difference and recognizing that, you know,
Speaker 1: I think each of us comes to our adult life
Speaker 1: with different conditioning around that. And some people tend on
Speaker 1: the more suppression repression side, and for them it's more
Speaker 1: about learning how to speak up, you know, and really
Speaker 1: how to say what's going on. And for other people, UM,
Speaker 1: they're more on the spouting off side. And then there's
Speaker 1: that the shift is again towards the middle. But that's
Speaker 1: in the other direction of learning how to hold back
Speaker 1: and to hold one's tongue and have more choice about
Speaker 1: what we say. And for each of those types of
Speaker 1: people and situations, it's equally hard to work against our
Speaker 1: conditioning and come into the middle. And the middle is
Speaker 1: the place of mindfulness where we're aware, we know what's
Speaker 1: going on, and therefore we start to have more choice
Speaker 1: about do I speak or don't I speak? If I speak,
Speaker 1: what do I say? If I speak? When do I speak?
Speaker 1: Is it now? Do I kind of hold my tongue,
Speaker 1: wait till the storm passes, and then bring it up later.
Speaker 1: You know a lot of our communication stuff is also
Speaker 1: just around timing, recognizing that we don't choose the right
Speaker 1: time and place to have a conversation. And my my
Speaker 1: partner who I live with, I'm learning finally, when she's
Speaker 1: getting ready and for the for work in the morning,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, not to bring up logistical questions about
Speaker 1: what do you want to do this weekend because her
Speaker 1: mind isn't there. You know, it's a small thing. We
Speaker 1: don't fight about it, but it's just kind of a
Speaker 1: time and place issue. I lost track of the second
Speaker 1: part of your question, Eric, you want to just I
Speaker 1: think I lost track of it too. I think it
Speaker 1: was really just about that my experience being the biting
Speaker 1: my tongue eventually becomes as painful for the other person
Speaker 1: because then like, where is he What's going on with him? Um,
Speaker 1: it's the silent treatment, it's they don't nobody knows what's
Speaker 1: really going on inside my brain. And I thought for
Speaker 1: years that I was, you know, doing pretty good because
Speaker 1: I wasn't, you know, saying anything mean and realizing that
Speaker 1: I could be almost as hurtful by just never saying anything.
Speaker 1: You sound like a troubled man. Why do you think
Speaker 1: I'm doing this podcast? I think you know. One way
Speaker 1: to kind of summarize that predicament, Eric, is that there
Speaker 1: I think there are two values. By the way, or
Speaker 1: was that effective communication on my part? I would I
Speaker 1: would say so, Yeah, I think so. I think we
Speaker 1: all understood what you meant and it led to more
Speaker 1: connection and understanding. Stop giving me such a break. I
Speaker 1: think the ten percent happier segment we want to see
Speaker 1: is or in watching Dan communicated at home for a
Speaker 1: weekend given a live commentary. I know, I think he
Speaker 1: should have like a I should have an earpiece. He
Speaker 1: should be like Syrano style, like advising me. Don't say that, Harris,
Speaker 1: do say this. Yeah, that would be great, that would
Speaker 1: be a great reality show. Anyway, we've cut you off.
Speaker 1: You were trying to say something constructive. Yeah, well, then
Speaker 1: other two things. So when you said was that effective communication,
Speaker 1: you're you know, you're pointing to something actually pretty important
Speaker 1: there when you make that joke, when you make that
Speaker 1: joke about your joke and say was that effective communication?
Speaker 1: Which is that what passes for good communication or effective communication?
Speaker 1: It's not about what we say. It's really not about
Speaker 1: what we say. Now you can say f you and
Speaker 1: if the other person understands what you mean and it's
Speaker 1: connecting rather than disconnecting, than we're using good communication. It's
Speaker 1: it's really a very very context sensitive thing in which
Speaker 1: we have to look at what is the what's the
Speaker 1: what's the your hard stick that we're using to measure this,
Speaker 1: and the yardstick that I use is does the other
Speaker 1: person understand and does it lead to connection? Is it
Speaker 1: actually bringing us together? And if you can say yes
Speaker 1: to both of those, then it's working. And it's not
Speaker 1: so much about the words that you're saying along those
Speaker 1: lines of it. So I we have my wife and
Speaker 1: I have this whole stick of basically I act like
Speaker 1: a jerk all the time and completely try to press
Speaker 1: your buttons constantly and once in a while, So just
Speaker 1: get up in my ear and whisper fuck you exactly,
Speaker 1: And that actually is a vacative communication, right right, And
Speaker 1: you know what she means. She means, Dan, I love
Speaker 1: you when you're driving me crazy right now, So why
Speaker 1: don't you take a break? Right? But it's so much
Speaker 1: easier and somewhere to just whisper those words. So I
Speaker 1: want to get back to this other thing, Eric, that
Speaker 1: you were saying about, you know, suppressing and the cost
Speaker 1: or the damage that can do both to ourselves and
Speaker 1: someone else. And for me, it's really important with any
Speaker 1: of these questions to keep that frame in mind that
Speaker 1: everything we do we do for a reason. We're doing
Speaker 1: to try to meet some need and to not demonize
Speaker 1: any of our communication patterns, right. I mean, the classic
Speaker 1: kind of one is someone blowing their top and screaming
Speaker 1: why because they're trying to get the other person to
Speaker 1: understand them, right. It's the most suicidal attempt at understanding
Speaker 1: you know, when we scream and yell and raise our voice,
Speaker 1: the last thing the other person wants to do is
Speaker 1: give us empathy and understand where we're coming from. And
Speaker 1: yet we're desperately trying to do that, you know, So
Speaker 1: just understanding our actions are there for reasons. So that
Speaker 1: sense of suppressing or not saying something is an attempt
Speaker 1: to actually hold the other person with care, right to
Speaker 1: not cause harm and to not lose sight of that
Speaker 1: fact that there's generally some kind of wholesome motivation underneath
Speaker 1: what we're doing that we can identify. And the two
Speaker 1: that we're sort of dancing around in this conversation around
Speaker 1: um while do you interrupt or do you hold your tongue?
Speaker 1: Is one is that sense of care, care and concern,
Speaker 1: and then the other is being real, being truthful, being honest,
Speaker 1: And we tend to err on one side or the other.
Speaker 1: We we focus on being honest and truthful, but we
Speaker 1: throw the care out the window and blast someone, or
Speaker 1: we focus on being caring and kind and concerned, and
Speaker 1: so we don't speak up. And the sweet spot that
Speaker 1: we're aiming for is really being able to bring both
Speaker 1: of those together where we can be open and honest
Speaker 1: and still do that in a way that's caring and
Speaker 1: kind and taking the other person into consideration. Great, we're
Speaker 1: nearing the end, and I want to wrap up with
Speaker 1: the question that um I thought was really good in
Speaker 1: the book. You talk about we interpret everything. We tend
Speaker 1: to just you know, somebody is doing something and we
Speaker 1: tend to interpret it as meaning X. And I'm I'm
Speaker 1: as guilty of this as anybody. I think we all
Speaker 1: do it. But you talk about moving away from that
Speaker 1: interpretation and moving into thinking about in a sense of
Speaker 1: what could actually be caught on film, which I thought
Speaker 1: was interesting day because I think in the course you said, well,
Speaker 1: that's exactly what you do your your your work is
Speaker 1: to is to get to what can actually be caught
Speaker 1: on film. And so I just interested in your guys
Speaker 1: take on moving away from the story in our head
Speaker 1: about what somebody is doing or means and getting back
Speaker 1: to the more literal what could be caught on film.
Speaker 1: I'll let you feel bad or in sure. It's a
Speaker 1: very deep training, you know. Um, First, just under standing
Speaker 1: the very concept of the difference between our stories and
Speaker 1: reality is huge, and just recognizing that we're all telling stories,
Speaker 1: all of the time about anything, you know, um, interpreting
Speaker 1: what we're doing, you know, telling a story. You know,
Speaker 1: this is a great podcast. That's a story that's fact, right,
Speaker 1: What do you actually mean by that? You know? Like
Speaker 1: why I listen to this podcast every week and I
Speaker 1: really enjoy it. I get a lot out of it
Speaker 1: that's closer to what's actually happening. This is a great podcast.
Speaker 1: Is a story and interpretation and judgment. So there's nothing
Speaker 1: wrong with judgments, interpretations, and stories. We use them. They're
Speaker 1: necessary in life. But where we run into problems is
Speaker 1: when we don't recognize that that's what we're doing. We're
Speaker 1: not actually doing it consciously, and so we move up
Speaker 1: into these higher levels of abstraction of having a story
Speaker 1: about something like you don't value my work hot hot
Speaker 1: topic for couples, you know, like you don't care about
Speaker 1: my family, you know, like you're not interested in having
Speaker 1: a relationship with Those are stories, right, It's like what's
Speaker 1: actually happening that I'm drawing those conclusions from that we
Speaker 1: can actually talk about. Uh, this this is a skill
Speaker 1: that's essential for meditation practice, and that we cultivated meditation practice,
Speaker 1: which is being able to observe what's happening directly, So
Speaker 1: we moved from the story of ah, my back hurts, Well,
Speaker 1: my back is a story, it's a concept. You know,
Speaker 1: when you actually get into the experience, there's just sensation
Speaker 1: located in different in space and I'm in pain or
Speaker 1: hurts is another concept, another story. What's actually happening? What's
Speaker 1: the sensation? You know, it's hard or tight, or twisting
Speaker 1: or stabbing or burning or aching, you know, something along
Speaker 1: those lines. So that very skill of being able to
Speaker 1: differentiate between the conceptual overlay or the story we're telling
Speaker 1: to what's actually happening is very very helpful in our
Speaker 1: communication and being able to talk about issues in a
Speaker 1: way that the other person can here and recognize without
Speaker 1: taking issue with. So we can bring something up and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I want to talk about this without immediately getting into
Speaker 1: a fight, because we're able to observe what's happening in
Speaker 1: a neutral, clear, direct way. So can you give an
Speaker 1: example of that in communication a um a place where
Speaker 1: I'm interpreting what somebody is doing or I'm I'm inferring
Speaker 1: to mot a motive. Sure, yeah, I'll give you an
Speaker 1: example from something that happened for me. This week with
Speaker 1: a colleague where we were having a meeting and something
Speaker 1: charged came up, and this colleague shared their feelings and needs,
Speaker 1: and in an email later I referred to what happened
Speaker 1: as her sharing her side of things. Okay, even that
Speaker 1: phrase your side of things, that's a story. It's it's
Speaker 1: my interpretation that she was sharing her side of things
Speaker 1: that didn't work for her. She said, you know, like,
Speaker 1: that's not my side of things. There's a lot more
Speaker 1: going on for me that I didn't even share. I
Speaker 1: just spoke about my experience and shared some of my feelings, right,
Speaker 1: So that would have been a much clearer observation, said,
Speaker 1: you know, when you spoke up and shared your feelings.
Speaker 1: So and some people listening to might be like, God,
Speaker 1: you're splitting hairs. Yeah, in some way, I am. But
Speaker 1: the point is that when I, when I just moved
Speaker 1: a little bit towards a summary and an interpretation of
Speaker 1: what had happened, that didn't match their experience, and it
Speaker 1: led to a disagreement and some disconnection. So the closer
Speaker 1: we can be in our language to just what happened,
Speaker 1: rather than the interpretation or the story, the more likely
Speaker 1: it is that the other person is going to be
Speaker 1: able to recognize that without taking issue with it. And
Speaker 1: where it starts to get, you know, more heated and
Speaker 1: clear as when we have stories like you don't care
Speaker 1: about me, or you're ignoring me, or you're a slob,
Speaker 1: you know, things like that where there's clearly an overlay
Speaker 1: of a judgments and we're not actually talking about the data,
Speaker 1: like the actual observable data that we're drawing those conclusions from.
Speaker 1: An example would be, uh, you don't respect me, and
Speaker 1: the behavior that was observed was somebody not bringing the
Speaker 1: trash cans in exactly, you know, and jumping all away
Speaker 1: from somebody didn't bring the trash can into you don't
Speaker 1: you know, you don't respect me. I think parents and
Speaker 1: children get into that a lot um that sort of
Speaker 1: the parent and just thinking that there's some huge charge
Speaker 1: to their authority or whatever, and the kid is just
Speaker 1: forgetful and a kid. Well, dan or In, this has
Speaker 1: been fun. I'm glad we got to do this, Glad
Speaker 1: we got to do it in person. Thanks for coming
Speaker 1: on again, dan or In, thanks for coming on the
Speaker 1: first time. And we will have links to h Oran
Speaker 1: and Dan's work as well as the ten Percent happier
Speaker 1: course on the website. At one you feed dot net.
Speaker 1: Thanks guys, thanks so much, thank you. All right, take
Speaker 1: care bye. You can learn more about Oran so for
Speaker 1: and this podcast. At one you feed dot net, slash
Speaker 1: or in