Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like
Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information
Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success.
Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us
Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get
Speaker 1: this stuff. Welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast.
Speaker 1: Today I am joined by Matt O'Dell. He has a
Speaker 1: bitcoin privacy advocate. He's the co host of the Tales
Speaker 1: from the Crypt podcast, and we get into some really
Speaker 1: good topics today. We talk about privacy, talk about our privacy,
Speaker 1: why it's important, how it's under attack. We talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, the state of people, maybe not really carrying
Speaker 1: the pessimistic view, but also the optimistic view of how
Speaker 1: I think technology could actually help that. We get into
Speaker 1: bitcoin not being as private as people think, but really
Speaker 1: being anonymous, how it's being you against us, and what
Speaker 1: we can do about it. We get into some tools
Speaker 1: and tactics and strategies that you can do every single
Speaker 1: day to not only increase your privacy and sovereignty, but
Speaker 1: really to benefit the entire community overall. It's a great podcast.
Speaker 1: It was one that I was really looking forward to
Speaker 1: doing for quite a while. I'm glad we were able
Speaker 1: to do it. So let's just go ahead and jump
Speaker 1: right in. All right, everybody, Welcome to another episode of
Speaker 1: the Market Disruptors podcast. Today we are joined by Matt
Speaker 1: O'Dell um. He speaks a lot about bitcoin and privacy.
Speaker 1: Is the co host of Tales from the Crypt podcast,
Speaker 1: which is a great podcast I listened to all the time.
Speaker 1: You guys should check it out if you're not already.
Speaker 1: But he talks a lot about privacy. He's really caught
Speaker 1: my eye and I wanted to talk more about that
Speaker 1: for you guys today. So welcome Matt, happy to be
Speaker 1: here in market all right, good? So um, yeah, So
Speaker 1: these are just really important topics. You know, with bitcoin,
Speaker 1: there's so many different topics you can get into. And
Speaker 1: and privacy. Our erosion of privacy and how bitcoin can
Speaker 1: help solve that is definitely a big piece I want
Speaker 1: to bring awareness to. Um, there's a lot we can
Speaker 1: talk about there before we get too deep in. Just
Speaker 1: for anybody who doesn't already know who you are, want
Speaker 1: to just give us like a little background who you
Speaker 1: are and then how you got here what you're doing
Speaker 1: in the space. Yes, so, Um, I mean the easiest
Speaker 1: way to describe myself is I'm just a bitcoiner. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, I fell into the bigcoin rabbit hole six
Speaker 1: years ago and I haven't looked back. Bitcoin is just
Speaker 1: completely absorbed all my thought processes. My whole life is
Speaker 1: absorbed by bitcoin. Um. So, I like quickly found a
Speaker 1: place like in the in the educational realm of bitcoin,
Speaker 1: trying to sort through all the bullshit that we see.
Speaker 1: Um and Uh, I found Marty. So we do Tales
Speaker 1: from the crypt We do it once a week. We
Speaker 1: do a nice recap show. Um. I also created a
Speaker 1: tool for it's a dead man switch called final message
Speaker 1: dot io um, which is it uses bitcoin as as
Speaker 1: the payments uh and the payments levels so that you
Speaker 1: can pay without giving me any kind of identifying information.
Speaker 1: Um and I. You know, I work a nice to
Speaker 1: be out job that I don't talk about that it
Speaker 1: helps me stacks. That's because I don't have to pay
Speaker 1: attention to the price perfect Um. Yeah, I think it was.
Speaker 1: I've seen a few people talking about it, but I
Speaker 1: think Francis Pollard is the first one I saw. You
Speaker 1: talked about kind of like how thinking about bitcoin changes,
Speaker 1: like even just the way that you think, right, it
Speaker 1: changes almost maybe your reality or whatever. So you said
Speaker 1: that your thought processes have been absorbed. Would you say
Speaker 1: that it changes the way you think? Do you think
Speaker 1: that's true? Oh? Yeah, I mean absolutely. I mean I think, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I I consider myself a realist and I
Speaker 1: was very pessimistic when I was younger. Um, I didn't
Speaker 1: really see like a solid way out for like the
Speaker 1: house of cards that has been built over the last
Speaker 1: forty fifty years. Um. And you know I, I guess
Speaker 1: you can see you see it a lot in my
Speaker 1: generation and they almost feels like a lost generation. And
Speaker 1: Bigcoin really turned that on its head and gave me hope, UM,
Speaker 1: that there's improvements that can be made, that that we
Speaker 1: can actually do something, that that each of us has
Speaker 1: the ability to to change, um, how this world functions. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then on top of that, I when it clicked
Speaker 1: for me, I was like I just need to like
Speaker 1: my number one goal is just to get as much
Speaker 1: bigcoin as possible. Uh So. And I also come from
Speaker 1: the um, you know, my dad told me at a
Speaker 1: very young age, like you shouldn't be investing in things
Speaker 1: that you don't understand. So when I all that combined,
Speaker 1: I was like, well, now I guess I gotta spend
Speaker 1: five hours a day on this here. I am. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of have a similar story. I
Speaker 1: grew up, Um, I grew up in Texas. I grew
Speaker 1: up in Texas. I don't live there anymore, but you know,
Speaker 1: really conservative of home. My parents were like grassroots political organizers.
Speaker 1: Uh grandfather's vets, fathers a VET. And you know I
Speaker 1: uh so I was super involved, you know, super interested
Speaker 1: in politics. And around like two thousand and twelve ish
Speaker 1: eleven twelve, I got so disillusioned, kind of like what
Speaker 1: you just said, pessimistic, like there's just no chance, there's
Speaker 1: no there's no there's no choices that we have, there's
Speaker 1: no options that we have, and I'm just I'm over it,
Speaker 1: Like I don't even want to pay attention because it
Speaker 1: just kind of makes me mad. And then when you
Speaker 1: really when I understood bitcoin and what it really has
Speaker 1: and what it can do, all of a sudden, like you,
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic. Now we actually have a tool, and so
Speaker 1: it's like I think we have a fighting chance now,
Speaker 1: and so like I kind of was the same thing.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, I just want to try and push
Speaker 1: this information as much as we can, because because now
Speaker 1: we have an option, we have a tool. UM. I
Speaker 1: like that. UM. I would say as far as changing
Speaker 1: the way you think, um, one, one thing that I've
Speaker 1: noticed is that it's super interesting to see what happens
Speaker 1: when you have a deflationary currency and what you're spending.
Speaker 1: Thoughts are like, right, all of a sudden, you're like, man,
Speaker 1: do I want to spend this money that could be
Speaker 1: I could park into bitcoin and could be going up
Speaker 1: in value, or do I wanted to spend it on
Speaker 1: something that's pointless? And probably you know, when you start
Speaker 1: to really think about value differently. Yeah, I mean people
Speaker 1: people say like that's a uh, you know, it stops
Speaker 1: you from spending bitcoin in particular, but I mean I
Speaker 1: think it it leads you to be more frugal in
Speaker 1: general because even with my you know, my paycheck is
Speaker 1: in FIA, even with my USD, Like, if I spend that,
Speaker 1: then money that's not going into bitcoin, right, So you just, yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes you. It makes you question you know, short
Speaker 1: term thinking versus long term thinking very much. So now
Speaker 1: that's that's a Kinseian argument, right, that says, well, that's bad.
Speaker 1: We we have to encourage spending. So there's a whole
Speaker 1: different train of thought or school of thought. I should
Speaker 1: say that people have to get into that we shouldn't
Speaker 1: always spend, right, we should save. And that can be
Speaker 1: a whole another topic topic on its own, but it
Speaker 1: ends interesting and I think even like you said, with
Speaker 1: the generation and and uh being optimistic it it's encouraging
Speaker 1: for me to see a whole new group of people
Speaker 1: get into bitcoin for whatever reason, the tech or even
Speaker 1: just the money. But then like you've done right where
Speaker 1: you just digging on the research and you start going
Speaker 1: down these rabbit holes and it's created this whole awareness.
Speaker 1: Like even the word fiat, right, wasn't even really used
Speaker 1: that long ago, right, it was a car. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a car. Yeah. So now you know, I love seeing
Speaker 1: this education and stuff like that coming out and that's
Speaker 1: really cool. So, um, what I really want to talk
Speaker 1: to you about today was just the privacy piece. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's it's but you have to
Speaker 1: kind of get into the philosophy aspect a little bit.
Speaker 1: But privacy is super important. Um, I agree, and obviously
Speaker 1: you do as well. A lot of people think that
Speaker 1: bitcoin is private, and you know, it's one thing the
Speaker 1: talking heads talk about, which is why it's bad, right,
Speaker 1: people hide all these things. It's for drug dealers, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. Tell me how you view privacy a little
Speaker 1: bit and why that's important for us. So, Um, I
Speaker 1: mean a lot of a lot of what is shaped
Speaker 1: by thinking in regards to privacy is where was the
Speaker 1: Snowden revelations? I mean, and what what Snowdon brought to
Speaker 1: us was the thing of conspiracy theories, um to have
Speaker 1: you know, massive corporations around the world basically complicit with
Speaker 1: government spy operations on their own citizens as well, right, Um,
Speaker 1: so up until that point, I mean, I I think
Speaker 1: when you start to think about privacy, you have to
Speaker 1: think about who's collecting the information, how are they using
Speaker 1: the information? Right? So, in a lot of these situations,
Speaker 1: if you trust the people collecting the information, there might
Speaker 1: not be many negative effects. Um. The Snowden revelation showed
Speaker 1: us that that we can trust the people collecting those informations.
Speaker 1: This information we can't trust, you know, at least like
Speaker 1: pre Snowdon, you thought like Google was fighting on your side. Apple,
Speaker 1: Apple was fighting on your side. Yahoo, all of them,
Speaker 1: you thought they were all fighting on your side. And
Speaker 1: even if they were collecting the information they were you know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't part of a like a massive government surveillance operation. UM.
Speaker 1: You know, you could go obviously it's not great that
Speaker 1: you know, Google does target it adds to you and
Speaker 1: all this other stuff. That's a major privacy issue as
Speaker 1: it is. But when you start aggregating all this information together,
Speaker 1: you start to really be able to map people and
Speaker 1: and see how they operate and how they think on
Speaker 1: the on a daily basis, um and and and when
Speaker 1: you when you take that in aggregate, it really becomes
Speaker 1: a super powerful tool to to control large amounts of people. Um,
Speaker 1: you can quell descent. You know, you can stop protests
Speaker 1: on just on a granular level to stop protests, but
Speaker 1: you can quell all types of descent. I mean, we
Speaker 1: look in China and we see on um we chat
Speaker 1: there their number one chat app where everyone communicate like
Speaker 1: you just can't say certain words, you can't even communicate
Speaker 1: between each other. That's like a step even before protests. UM.
Speaker 1: So so it really comes down to um, are do
Speaker 1: you want to be a free person or not, because
Speaker 1: if you're if if you give up your privacy, you're
Speaker 1: no longer a free person in today's age because that
Speaker 1: information can be used against you at any time. They
Speaker 1: might not use it against you now, they might not
Speaker 1: use it against you in five years. They may never
Speaker 1: use it against you, but they could at any moment
Speaker 1: decided to use it against you. Yeah. I love what
Speaker 1: Snowdon said. He had a quote that really caught my eye.
Speaker 1: And I think about a lot, which is those who
Speaker 1: say they don't have need a right to privacy because
Speaker 1: they have nothing to hide. He's like saying, you don't
Speaker 1: need freedom of speech because you have nothing to say.
Speaker 1: And I think, um, like what you said, Maybe they'll
Speaker 1: never use it against you. I think they will. So,
Speaker 1: you know, what we've seen, and what we've seen is
Speaker 1: that we continue to have this division right and and
Speaker 1: people are more polarized than ever. And so I think
Speaker 1: no matter which side you're on, pro life or pro
Speaker 1: choice or Democratic Republican or whatever, it doesn't matter which
Speaker 1: side you're on, there's gonna be somebody on the opposite side.
Speaker 1: And so there's always somebody who's gonna want to discriminate
Speaker 1: you against that because of one of your decisions. And
Speaker 1: and and then maybe you know, especially now with it
Speaker 1: being stored forever, something that you may have done the
Speaker 1: past could could be there forever. Yeah, Let's say you
Speaker 1: pissed someone off that's empowered ten years down the line.
Speaker 1: They can just pull up all your text messages that
Speaker 1: you've ever sent. They can just take it to pieces.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe there's some little there's so many intricate laws,
Speaker 1: I mean in America, but think about worldwide. But they
Speaker 1: can just pick up something and be like, you know
Speaker 1: that was illegal, you did that wrong. Let me throw
Speaker 1: you in jail. You know, blackmail, all types of blackmail.
Speaker 1: People don't think like porn habits, you know, stuff like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And what happens is is, uh, you know, when I
Speaker 1: start to worry that people are going to be listening
Speaker 1: and watching, then I start censoring myself what I say.
Speaker 1: And then when I start censoring myself what I say,
Speaker 1: then I starts censoring myself what I think. And when
Speaker 1: I start to censor my thoughts and creativity, guys, And
Speaker 1: that's a massive problem. Yeah, I mean, it's very intertwined
Speaker 1: with free speech. I would say because I mean, without privacy,
Speaker 1: it's really hard to have, like I just pretty much
Speaker 1: impossible to have free speech. Yeah, so it seems like
Speaker 1: it's under attack. We see, Um, you know in Hong
Speaker 1: Kong they've been having these these protests which you mentioned.
Speaker 1: Uh I saw you tweet I think today yesterday about
Speaker 1: these kids being spied on at school the China social
Speaker 1: credit system. So do you feel that this is like
Speaker 1: it's getting to be a bigger and bigger problem now.
Speaker 1: I guess survey or technology helps that. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: I think we're just to put my pessimistic hat on again.
Speaker 1: I mean I think we're kind of we're kind of screwed.
Speaker 1: Uh uh in terms of the like encroaching surveillance state,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's here we can push back. Um, we
Speaker 1: can use tools that will help us. We have like
Speaker 1: the rise of like the encrypted messengers, which is really good,
Speaker 1: which we saw basically the onus is basically the Snowden revelations.
Speaker 1: But now we have like signal, um, you know, WhatsApp
Speaker 1: added encryption. Who even knows if that's legit or not. Um,
Speaker 1: you got like Telegram, key base, we have we have
Speaker 1: some we have more tools. I mean, look at I message,
Speaker 1: I message is isn't is the number one in messaging
Speaker 1: app in America. I'm pretty sure it's got full encryption
Speaker 1: on it. Um. Does the US government able to see it? Possibly?
Speaker 1: But like at least everyone else can see it. Um.
Speaker 1: So there's some glimmers of hope there. UM. But the
Speaker 1: stuff like the facial tracking and UM traditional payments tracking,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we might have already lost that battle.
Speaker 1: I mean what you were talking about with the schools
Speaker 1: is is like classic UM, classic government and like corporation playbook,
Speaker 1: where you basically the parents are scared of school shooters. Right,
Speaker 1: So you play on that fear, and then you go
Speaker 1: completely over aboard and you install facial recognition throughout the
Speaker 1: whole school, and you map all the kids and you're
Speaker 1: able to see where they move, who they talked to. UM,
Speaker 1: they have government, if they have school issued computers, you
Speaker 1: track all their communications on the computers. And and that's
Speaker 1: where we saw on a larger scale with the Patriot
Speaker 1: Act Actor September eleven. Right, so you have September eleven,
Speaker 1: you put a bill up that just destroys everyone's rights,
Speaker 1: and you just call it the Patriot Act because everyone
Speaker 1: scares as hell. Yeah, that's the best way to get
Speaker 1: someone to give up their rights is to scare them.
Speaker 1: And I think maybe the quote isn't. They can't really
Speaker 1: tell who've said it, but I think Jeffer Center or
Speaker 1: Frank Benjamin Franklin said right that those who are willing
Speaker 1: to give up freedom for privacy deserved either you know,
Speaker 1: some something to that regard. And and so people are
Speaker 1: willing to give that up because they're scared. They want protection,
Speaker 1: but he says they deserve neither. And that's ultimately what
Speaker 1: you get. You don't get protection or privacy or freedom. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: recognition isn't. The facial recognition of schools is not going
Speaker 1: to stop school shootings. No, And look if you look
Speaker 1: back even you know, the overreach that we have at
Speaker 1: the airport's. I mean, if you've the fly out of
Speaker 1: l a X takes three hours, you know, and it's
Speaker 1: like none of that what they did would have stopped that,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever happened on nine eleven. So, um, I
Speaker 1: agree with you on that. Yeah. Literally, they solved the
Speaker 1: vulnerability of nine eleven by reinforcing the cockpit doors and
Speaker 1: telling the pilots they weren't allowed to go into the
Speaker 1: cabin if something happened like that solved it. That's all
Speaker 1: they had to do. You couldn't get into the cockpit,
Speaker 1: no one could, no one, No one could take over
Speaker 1: the plane and fly into a building. That solved that.
Speaker 1: Everything else is just security theater designed to and you know,
Speaker 1: a rotor civil liberties. And also I think it's even
Speaker 1: it's even more sinister than that because it kind of,
Speaker 1: um it like builds in this default that people get
Speaker 1: used to that that you know, they go to the
Speaker 1: they go to the airport, and they're used to just
Speaker 1: having no rights whatsoever, just getting completely searched zero like,
Speaker 1: so they're like they're setting us up there. They started
Speaker 1: adding facial recognition and for like check ins and stuff.
Speaker 1: A lot of the airlines yep I Marty says this
Speaker 1: a lot on our podcast that the airports in America
Speaker 1: are like very much a testing ground. That that's what
Speaker 1: we think. It's very much a testing ground to uh,
Speaker 1: to erote our privacy and our our liberties further. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's definitely desensitization. Like you said, right, we're getting used
Speaker 1: to it, and I mean you have no rights. I
Speaker 1: mean you if you mess up even standing in line.
Speaker 1: I mean, they have the right to you know, who
Speaker 1: knows what they're gonna do with you there. But I think,
Speaker 1: as you said, you know, it's it's, it's it is.
Speaker 1: It is easy to be a pessimist to see this, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, encroachment or this continual growth in app Um,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of, uh, I'm kind of starting to think
Speaker 1: a little bit optimistically, and I want to see what
Speaker 1: you think about this. So, um, you did mention that,
Speaker 1: you know, we do kind of have this rise of
Speaker 1: encryption apps, which is pretty cool. Um. I think it's
Speaker 1: been kind of a perfect storm because on one hand,
Speaker 1: you have people today who think they don't need privacy
Speaker 1: and they're willing to give up their privacy for freedom.
Speaker 1: So people don't care about it, and at the same time,
Speaker 1: we have technology making it easier. So it's like this
Speaker 1: perfect storm to make it worse, but at the same
Speaker 1: time that the same technology is also giving us a
Speaker 1: way out. So you talked about messengers and messenger apps
Speaker 1: and whatnot. But what I'm starting to see is I
Speaker 1: think really the big piece was this Facebook scandal, this
Speaker 1: data scandal, and people starting to realize that holy crap,
Speaker 1: my data is being compromised. We have all these data
Speaker 1: breaches and whatnot, and I'm almost wondering. I'm thinking that
Speaker 1: we might start seeing big corporations. We've already seen Microsoft
Speaker 1: jumping in to try to offer privacy back and maybe
Speaker 1: they maybe that might be a competitive edge. Maybe we'll
Speaker 1: start to see big corporations start to compete on that
Speaker 1: and really help push that narrative. What do you think
Speaker 1: about that? I mean, we've seen it. Apple kind of
Speaker 1: stumbled into it, but they've they've solidified it and made
Speaker 1: it like a key pillar of their marketing, the privacy
Speaker 1: st angle, which is good to see. UM. You know, I,
Speaker 1: as you just said, Microsoft is also pivoting to be
Speaker 1: more privacy focused. UM. I like to see that. I
Speaker 1: think the market is demanding it. Um. It comes down
Speaker 1: to the Snowden revelations again, though do we trust those people?
Speaker 1: Is there any way to verify it? There's no way
Speaker 1: to verify it. Um. So because we're talking about you know,
Speaker 1: we're talking about closed source software here where you can't
Speaker 1: you can't even look at the source code. We don't
Speaker 1: know what's going on. Well, if we see like what
Speaker 1: Microsoft did right with I on putting it on a
Speaker 1: block on the on the bitcoin blockchain. Maybe, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I just it comes down to trust. I think they're
Speaker 1: all complicit. They can all get pushed behind back back
Speaker 1: back rooms and just forced with legal uh you know,
Speaker 1: legal ramifications. Uh. The thing is, UM, I do agree
Speaker 1: that right now, more people care about privacy than they've
Speaker 1: ever that that I've ever cared about in the history
Speaker 1: of the world. I mean, partly because we have more
Speaker 1: people in general, but it's it's trending up right, and
Speaker 1: as we put more information online, there will be more leaks,
Speaker 1: there will be more compromises, there will be more people
Speaker 1: that directly get their civil liberties stepped on. Um. And
Speaker 1: people will wake up one at a time, you know.
Speaker 1: But the question is where when they do wake up,
Speaker 1: is it gonna be too late at that point? Right?
Speaker 1: We have to make sure that that we don't you know,
Speaker 1: just completely fall off the cliff before that. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I think so, well, you know, we'll transition into bitcoin
Speaker 1: because that's the big piece. And I really believe that
Speaker 1: you know, bitcoin is you know, is a lot of things. Um.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us believe it can be
Speaker 1: a new you know, monetary base layer, But I think
Speaker 1: it almost solves every problem. So for example, if the
Speaker 1: government didn't have unlimited, unlimited spending, if the government didn't
Speaker 1: have unlimited spending, they probably wouldn't have unlimited overreach in
Speaker 1: technology either, right, So if we could limit their spending,
Speaker 1: we could limit their overreach at the same time. So
Speaker 1: maybe it helps that. Yeah, I mean I think it
Speaker 1: all goes hand in hand, right U. I mean when
Speaker 1: you when you start to talk about things like censorship,
Speaker 1: resistance UM in terms of bitcoin, I mean, you need
Speaker 1: to have the the supply needs to be transparent, you
Speaker 1: need to have a known monetary policy, which in bitcoins
Speaker 1: cas is very simple, it's just fixed UM and and
Speaker 1: because otherwise, like I think censorship comes in into play
Speaker 1: as well with with um inflation or something like that.
Speaker 1: If they're able to inflate the supply, if they're able
Speaker 1: to do all this other stuff, and if you don't
Speaker 1: have a native token, then we can't use this technology
Speaker 1: to transfer value in the first place, right because then
Speaker 1: you know, and all these stuff that like oh we'll
Speaker 1: create a token that's like backed by gold or something
Speaker 1: like that. You need to have a company that has
Speaker 1: like a warehouse that's filled with gold and you have
Speaker 1: to trust them that they're saying that there's actually gold
Speaker 1: in the warehouse or whatever. Right, So that requires trust,
Speaker 1: which which bitcoin doesn't. So we have bitcoin and it
Speaker 1: can be a lot of things. I think we can
Speaker 1: talk about it today in in the sense of privacy
Speaker 1: and so, you know, it's one it's one thing to
Speaker 1: have like your your web surfing information taken when you
Speaker 1: think about privacy, or your travel information taken. But when
Speaker 1: you get access to the financial data, that's got to
Speaker 1: be the most private of all. And so that's essentially
Speaker 1: what is potentially you know, it's at risk here right
Speaker 1: where we're going to a completely digital currency um and
Speaker 1: then they have access to all the financial records. And
Speaker 1: bitcoin is not really as private as people think. Um.
Speaker 1: You want to maybe just explained that for a minute.
Speaker 1: I mean I would say I would say they already
Speaker 1: have all that information. Um or like our our current
Speaker 1: system is like pretty much digital as it is to
Speaker 1: begin with, it's all being tracked. It's all not just
Speaker 1: by the government, which is absolutely tracking. You know, you
Speaker 1: do any kind of thing that when you go into
Speaker 1: a bank. When I go into a bank, I don't
Speaker 1: feel like a client. I feel like a criminal. I
Speaker 1: feel like they're constantly looking at me trying to figure out,
Speaker 1: like what am I doing with my money? Should I
Speaker 1: report them to the government, Should I do this? Should
Speaker 1: I do that? Um? And then you have the corporations
Speaker 1: that track you. All the credit card companies are tracking you,
Speaker 1: like the discount sites, all this stuff. They're all tracking
Speaker 1: your payments. Um and yeah, and and bitcoin is is
Speaker 1: is hope among all of that mess. Now, Bitcoin as
Speaker 1: it stands, if you just use it naturally, it's not
Speaker 1: private at all. I mean it kind of. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess it's a it's a step improvement in some ways,
Speaker 1: and somewhat anonymous in some ways because if you if
Speaker 1: you get if I like give you cash and you
Speaker 1: pay me bitcoin, then you're the only person who knows
Speaker 1: that address is mine. Right then I can pretty much
Speaker 1: spend it anonymously, but you know where I spend it on.
Speaker 1: So it's not fully right, it's not fully private, but
Speaker 1: like no government entity or something else would be able
Speaker 1: to tell. And then then I, unless they use these
Speaker 1: chain analysis type software, is they start tracked. Now you
Speaker 1: give to somebody else who then it's tracked in their
Speaker 1: ky seed and then they somehow piece all this together. Right,
Speaker 1: but the only person who knows I paid you cash
Speaker 1: for that bitcoin is you. So but but then the
Speaker 1: step backwards is is that all these transactions are being
Speaker 1: stored on this a mutable ledger that could presumably we
Speaker 1: were hoping, will last for hundreds of years, where every
Speaker 1: transaction is shown on this ledger. So if you if
Speaker 1: you make a mistake in the future where somehow you
Speaker 1: get connected to a line of transactions, they might be
Speaker 1: able to go back and give you ship for things
Speaker 1: you did ten years in the past, fifteen years in
Speaker 1: the past, use that to make judgments against you and
Speaker 1: persecute you, uh, seize your bitcoin, seize your wealth, do
Speaker 1: all this other stuff. Um. So it's it's a really
Speaker 1: tricky situation. UM that doesn't have a perfect solution because,
Speaker 1: as we said earlier, the the fact that the that
Speaker 1: the ledgers transparent is also a major benefit. Um. There
Speaker 1: are but there are starting to be some options. And
Speaker 1: that's where really where I want to get into. And
Speaker 1: I know you you kind of talk about on Twitter. Um,
Speaker 1: you know with Sabi Wednesdays, you talk about that. So
Speaker 1: there's there's an option with Sabi I know there's a
Speaker 1: couple of other options that are out there as well. UM,
Speaker 1: maybe you can just kind of tell us what the
Speaker 1: SABI Wednesday is and how that can help people, um
Speaker 1: with some of that privacy. Right. So with SABI is
Speaker 1: an implementation is a is a piece of software that
Speaker 1: runs in your computer that implements uh something they're calling
Speaker 1: charming and coin joint, which is coin joint, which is
Speaker 1: a m I think was developed by Greg Maxwell. Uh is.
Speaker 1: Basically the idea is that you can and a trust
Speaker 1: minimized fashion, you can combine your coins with a bunch
Speaker 1: of other people. So like let's say we all put
Speaker 1: in a hundred dollars like ton of us, and then
Speaker 1: the hundred dollar bills go to different people, right, so
Speaker 1: you can't tell, you know what one of ten got it,
Speaker 1: but you don't know who who have the ten got
Speaker 1: which one. Um, so it breaks that trail of transactions
Speaker 1: that's in the ledger that shows transaction to transaction to
Speaker 1: transaction to transaction. Now, the issue here is if you
Speaker 1: only do with ten people, then it doesn't really help
Speaker 1: you that much, right because you you know it's one
Speaker 1: of ten, So you've got to do with more people,
Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why I've been pushing
Speaker 1: with Saby so hard is because it doesn't really work well.
Speaker 1: And unless the more people we get, the better it works,
Speaker 1: the faster works. Um. And it's still not a silver
Speaker 1: bullet because you have, um, all it takes is the
Speaker 1: problem with privacy is that all it takes is like
Speaker 1: one or two mistakes and you can just everything could
Speaker 1: just go get thrown out the window. So it takes
Speaker 1: a lot of education and a lot of there's a
Speaker 1: lot of nuance um. And I've been trying to educate
Speaker 1: as best as possible. UM. And yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 1: It's it's not with Sabby is has coined it is
Speaker 1: not a new idea. With Saby has made it easier
Speaker 1: than ever to do it in a pretty private fashion. Um.
Speaker 1: You know. They it requires the central server their implementation
Speaker 1: to coordinate the round where everyone combines. But the central
Speaker 1: server can't take your money, and it all runs through tours,
Speaker 1: so the central server can identify you individually on on
Speaker 1: whose output and whose input. Um. You know a lot
Speaker 1: of centralized mixing services. That was the issue is that
Speaker 1: the centralized server could you were trusting the centralized server
Speaker 1: no one else could tell where your transactions were going
Speaker 1: as long as that centralized server was actually being honest
Speaker 1: and and not doing it. And they that those centralized
Speaker 1: servers can take your money with with SAVY, they can't
Speaker 1: take your money, um and and they it's pretty hard
Speaker 1: for them to tell who you are because it all
Speaker 1: runs through tour and so you need to get more
Speaker 1: people to use it. But but it's it's not something
Speaker 1: you can do after the fact, Like you have to basically,
Speaker 1: not only do you have to coin join now before
Speaker 1: you send other transactions, you have to keep on You're
Speaker 1: gonna have to keep on mixing like you're gonna have
Speaker 1: to keep on coin joining in the future otherwise um like,
Speaker 1: transactions will get linked you. Again. If you said, like
Speaker 1: if you put a donation address up for this podcast,
Speaker 1: and you say, you know, send me bitcoin on mark
Speaker 1: to this address if you like the pot um that
Speaker 1: address now is connected to you, and any transactions to
Speaker 1: and from that address could presumably be yours. There's a
Speaker 1: safe assumption to be made there that they're yours. If
Speaker 1: you then send that to your main wallet or something,
Speaker 1: then we we all know how much bitcoin you have
Speaker 1: in that main wallet. So you just have to constantly
Speaker 1: be doing coin joints. Um. I guess with lightning that
Speaker 1: there's there's potential there to reduce the need to remix,
Speaker 1: but it's yet to be fully seen how that what
Speaker 1: those implications will be. And I know there's also like
Speaker 1: Samurai wallet now has their whirlpool and I saw like
Speaker 1: they have like they they made it seems like it's
Speaker 1: pretty easy, like with the new app that they have,
Speaker 1: and um you can stack it on like the nodal
Speaker 1: lid not a lit or whatever, So it'll be Samurai
Speaker 1: will be much easier than they're in Vata right now.
Speaker 1: So it requires software that you run in your computer,
Speaker 1: which is what Wassabi requires to but in the future,
Speaker 1: in Samurai while you'll be able to just open your phone, click,
Speaker 1: start mixing and it'll just it'll just handle it for you. Um.
Speaker 1: So I mean the way it should works. Every time
Speaker 1: I received bitcoin would be mixed, and before I send it,
Speaker 1: I mix it so it's in and out right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just constantly, you just have to constantly be mixing. And
Speaker 1: like for your cold storage, like you would have to
Speaker 1: do a situation where any any transactions you sent into
Speaker 1: cold storage have to go through coin joint before they
Speaker 1: get to your cold storage, and then when they come out,
Speaker 1: they should go through coin join again otherwise on the
Speaker 1: on the outward. Uh so both like if for your
Speaker 1: cold storage, you should insulate it with cold coin join
Speaker 1: on both sides, if you if you're adding to it
Speaker 1: or if you're removing removing from it. Yeah. Now I've
Speaker 1: been interested in this because you know, they use this
Speaker 1: word fungibility, which means, you know, one bitcoin should be
Speaker 1: equal and it should be equally tradeable, um, like a
Speaker 1: dollar is, and you know something crazy like I don't know,
Speaker 1: ninety dollars have cocaine on them or whatever, but like
Speaker 1: nobody seems to care about that. But supposedly a bitcoin
Speaker 1: becomes tainted, and I think jane Aalysis and other firms
Speaker 1: actually like kind of great bitcoins, and they could say
Speaker 1: these bitcoins aren't as good as other bitcoins and that
Speaker 1: messes up the funge ability. So um, in order to
Speaker 1: kind of prevent that or preserve this fungeability where all
Speaker 1: bitcoins are equal, then we kind of need everybody to participate,
Speaker 1: as you're saying, right, So then if everybody were to
Speaker 1: mix their transactions, then all the history gets erased, and
Speaker 1: then all bitcoins could be equal. Again. I mean I
Speaker 1: think there's like a there's like a critical mass number.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be like everybody. Um, there's like
Speaker 1: a critical mass. And we have you know of bitcoin
Speaker 1: in circulation or something. I have a history of coin
Speaker 1: join at some point, right. Uh. You know, because because
Speaker 1: the main argument against the fungibility, the main argument with
Speaker 1: funge ability is concerned is that, um if if you
Speaker 1: send bitcoin right now to an exchange and that and
Speaker 1: that bitcoin has a history of let's say like a
Speaker 1: dark market or something. Maybe you didn't even use a
Speaker 1: dark market. Maybe someone who had bitcoin five people down
Speaker 1: the road used it for a dark market. You got
Speaker 1: tipped for your podcast, and now you have some dark
Speaker 1: market bitcoin, and you send that to coin base, right
Speaker 1: coin based entertained analysis on it, they say this is
Speaker 1: a silk grow bitcoin. They freeze your account. Right, that's
Speaker 1: an issue we can't that's that that destroys bigcoin as
Speaker 1: a useful money. Um And because for you imagine, one
Speaker 1: of the beauties of bitcoin is that it reduces friction
Speaker 1: in terms of exchanging exchanging money and goods. If you
Speaker 1: have to deal with that, there's so much additional friction there.
Speaker 1: I mean you have to literally chain analysis all your
Speaker 1: tips as you as you bring them in. You gotta
Speaker 1: do that. Do we see that happening today? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: mean they they're doing it right now. If there's like
Speaker 1: an obvious connection. Um. So, so if you use coin
Speaker 1: join in between there, they and you do it effective,
Speaker 1: you do it enough rounds, you're patient about it, you
Speaker 1: actually like cross your teas and stuff, and you send it.
Speaker 1: There's no way for them to tell where that bitcoin
Speaker 1: came from. So if we have like bitcoin users, bitcoin
Speaker 1: transactions are running through coin join, um it will become
Speaker 1: ridiculously hard for them to enforce. So so then so
Speaker 1: then the issue there is what ms if they say, well,
Speaker 1: we'll just blacklist anything that is coin too. Right, It's
Speaker 1: a question I was gonna ask, Right, so how does
Speaker 1: that band look like if I are you saying that
Speaker 1: it just immediately used coin join? Are you saying that,
Speaker 1: you know, what does if I just send it send
Speaker 1: a bitcoin back to myself to a bunch of different
Speaker 1: addresses and like do like six hops and the coin
Speaker 1: joint happened, you know, seven transactions ago. It wasn't a
Speaker 1: recent transaction did I do the coin join? Did you
Speaker 1: do the coin like? Who? Who did that coin join?
Speaker 1: Do I have to? So once we hit a certain
Speaker 1: threshold there, um, I think those concerns really go out
Speaker 1: the window because you have UM, it'll be so easy
Speaker 1: to just move into coin join. And even if the
Speaker 1: exchange says the you know, we're not going to take
Speaker 1: an immediate coin join and you just put a couple
Speaker 1: of hops in there and then you send it on UM,
Speaker 1: that should destroy should new to those those sponge ability
Speaker 1: concerns UM, And I think I think from the exchange's
Speaker 1: point of view, the services point of view, or the
Speaker 1: podcast hosts point of view, receiving bitcoin like I would
Speaker 1: rather receive bitcoin where I couldn't tell where it came from.
Speaker 1: Why do I want the liability of knowing exactly where
Speaker 1: that bitcoin has been where it's going? Like? Why do
Speaker 1: I want to know that? That just puts me bigger,
Speaker 1: That just gives me a bigger issue. So I think,
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think services and you know, merchants
Speaker 1: and stuff will will encourage it. I think they'll prefer
Speaker 1: to receive coins that have going through coin join. That
Speaker 1: was one thing I heard at the Bitcoin Friends um,
Speaker 1: a couple weeks ago, is they said, kind of, it's
Speaker 1: it's almost like our responsibility to kind of to to
Speaker 1: remove that history right to make sure that they can
Speaker 1: only see one transaction back. And if they could only
Speaker 1: ever see one transaction back, then it gives us back
Speaker 1: to that digital cash, which is basically what cash is.
Speaker 1: And you know the argument, I mean, I whatever their
Speaker 1: argument about, like money laundering, I guess is is somewhat relevant,
Speaker 1: I suppose, But I mean, if you think about it,
Speaker 1: like banks have been find hundreds of billions of dollars
Speaker 1: for money laundering. All the money that we use has
Speaker 1: been laundered at one point probably right or or high probability. Um,
Speaker 1: And there's just no reason why I should have to
Speaker 1: carry that uh that that around so just because they can,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's kind of ridiculous. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, the number one tool for money laundering is
Speaker 1: the US dollar. But like no one or I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess people have one of the reasons, I'm bullet
Speaker 1: tramp big points because people have been arguing the effocacy
Speaker 1: of cash. They don't want they want to get rid
Speaker 1: of cash. Yeah, so so we're gonna need a digital
Speaker 1: little equivalent. But yeah, I I I mean I think
Speaker 1: the money laundering argument is a is a weak argument,
Speaker 1: and it is one usually leveled by people that trust
Speaker 1: the state because basically, I mean, the definition of money
Speaker 1: laundry is like doing with your money something like your
Speaker 1: government doesn't want you to do with your money. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, now, um, we have a couple of other options.
Speaker 1: Just real quickly. You've mentioned about lightning. I know, uh,
Speaker 1: lightning kind of you can do some kind of private
Speaker 1: you know, peer to peer transactions. I think blockstream now
Speaker 1: what they're green, they have like confidential transactions or whatever,
Speaker 1: So you think that also helps. So like I could
Speaker 1: mix them that I have offline that you and I
Speaker 1: can do confidential transactions back and forth, and that kind
Speaker 1: of mixes it up even more. Yeah, That's what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: is like imagine, like just trying to imagine like what
Speaker 1: a coin joint band could look like, right, Like I
Speaker 1: I I don't see how you can enforce it because
Speaker 1: like imagine you go coin join and then you go
Speaker 1: into liquid the liquid side chain. Then you send a
Speaker 1: couple of transactions as they have confidential transactions, so the
Speaker 1: balances are blocked but not to and from who's going
Speaker 1: to wear and then you pull out of liquid. Now
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, your your bitcoin is a history
Speaker 1: of liquid that doesn't have a history. You've got different
Speaker 1: bitcoin than the coin joint. Well, like how do you
Speaker 1: It's or like you go into lightning, You you fund
Speaker 1: the lightning channel, you send some lightning payments, you close
Speaker 1: up the lightning channel, Like is that a coin joint transaction? Now?
Speaker 1: Like it gets really it turns into basically like if
Speaker 1: they wanted to bandcoin join their banning bitcoin self custody altogether.
Speaker 1: You can't withdraw bitcoin, you can't deposit bitcoin. It's just
Speaker 1: the number in your t d amrit rate account. And
Speaker 1: then I mean at that point we have bigger we
Speaker 1: have bigger issues. Yeah, and I think they're they already
Speaker 1: kind of want to do that, right even with this
Speaker 1: new f a t F deal where they want to
Speaker 1: like you have to send the transaction details and whatnot.
Speaker 1: I think, Um, I love this. You know the statement
Speaker 1: that says, though, um, you know your government banning it
Speaker 1: is even more reason why you want it or need it, right,
Speaker 1: so um, they almost just kind of pushed that use case.
Speaker 1: It really the whole argument is is kind of ridiculous anyway,
Speaker 1: where Okay, it pushes terrorism and it pushes drugs, well,
Speaker 1: should drugs even be legal? And I mean illegal anyway?
Speaker 1: Who are you to tell me what I can and
Speaker 1: cannot put in my body? Like, So that's that's a
Speaker 1: that's a whole different argument. And terrorism, I mean, come on,
Speaker 1: who's the largest supplier of terrorism? Is my little transaction
Speaker 1: is actually helping terrorism? And those are a lot of
Speaker 1: topics as well. The number one tool for terrorists is
Speaker 1: the US dollars. Once again, you know, we come back
Speaker 1: to I do think, to be completely frank, like, I
Speaker 1: think we will see a terrorist attack in like in
Speaker 1: the future at some point and they will say they
Speaker 1: funded it with bitcoin, and they will use it to
Speaker 1: crack down a bitcoin I bet you. I bet you.
Speaker 1: The number one tool for terrorism is not dollars. I
Speaker 1: bet you. It's mobile phones. Yeah, they love mobile phones,
Speaker 1: but I bet they're using I bet they're using cars too.
Speaker 1: I bet cars is probably a big tool they use.
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, right, like they probably use airplanes.
Speaker 1: I bet airplanes are big tools that terrorism uses. I mean,
Speaker 1: we could just go on and on and on, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean they were, they were talking. I remember they
Speaker 1: were the realest in European attacks that were being leveled.
Speaker 1: They used it to try and fight encryption, say that
Speaker 1: you can't use encrypton chat apps. And like all the
Speaker 1: all the terrorists on the ground, they were using burner phones.
Speaker 1: They were using no encryption whatsoever. They were just using
Speaker 1: burner phones. Yeah, we can go on and on and on,
Speaker 1: but we'll go ahead and wrap it up. I know
Speaker 1: we're getting along here, so I know you've put out
Speaker 1: a bunch of good resources for people that want to
Speaker 1: get more into into this in the privacy um, and
Speaker 1: maybe I'll link to some of those in the show
Speaker 1: notes for everybody. UM. I don't know if you could
Speaker 1: just kind of recap really quickly, maybe like a couple
Speaker 1: of things that you think so you know, coin joining
Speaker 1: with Sabi or or Samurai, having your own NOE, using
Speaker 1: a tour browser. I mean, just a couple of things
Speaker 1: real quick. Okay, let's try and we'll try and to
Speaker 1: still it. Well, let's try. So I think right now,
Speaker 1: the best simplest and like the best bang for your
Speaker 1: buck in terms of simple to uh private uh is
Speaker 1: is you and all of a sabby on your computer.
Speaker 1: You use that from now on to connect to your
Speaker 1: hardware wallet. It supports the top three hardware while it's
Speaker 1: cold card, Ledger, and treasure UM. So one of the
Speaker 1: issues when people connect with their harder whilet they don't
Speaker 1: realize if they if they use the treasurer app or
Speaker 1: they use the Ledger app, they're sending all their transactions
Speaker 1: and data through Ledger and treasure servers. So I am
Speaker 1: I have no reason to believe that they're collecting that
Speaker 1: information and using it against us, but they could presumably
Speaker 1: you have to trust them. So you connect your with
Speaker 1: saby to with your hardware wallet, even in light mode,
Speaker 1: if you're not running your own note it's way more private.
Speaker 1: And even better is if you run your own note
Speaker 1: UM with saby automatically connects to that UM if you're
Speaker 1: running it on the same computer, and if you're running
Speaker 1: it on a different computer, you can connect it to UM,
Speaker 1: you can connect it to your with saby, And the
Speaker 1: beauty there is is you get sovereignty benefits because you're
Speaker 1: verifying all your transactions yourself. And it's additional privacy because
Speaker 1: UM just just the way you're getting all the blocked
Speaker 1: out you're getting all the transaction down and not just
Speaker 1: your own specific transaction, so it gives you some additional privacy.
Speaker 1: UM and then mix and within with Sabi. It's really
Speaker 1: really easy to mix your coins and with Sabi, you
Speaker 1: just queue them up for coin joint and UM and
Speaker 1: just mix those around. You know. The thing is like,
Speaker 1: don't be scared of it, because even if you suck
Speaker 1: it up, it's like way better. You know, don't like
Speaker 1: just jump in and use it for like life and
Speaker 1: death situations without properly learning about it. But if if
Speaker 1: you're just like a normal person that just wants to
Speaker 1: reclaim your privacy back, it's a net benefit. There's there's
Speaker 1: no there's no situation where you use with SABI and
Speaker 1: you lose more privacy than you've had before. Right, It's
Speaker 1: really the point I want everyone to pick up is
Speaker 1: not just about your privacy. It's for the whole ecosystem. So, um,
Speaker 1: let's not be so selfish where everyone, you know, we're
Speaker 1: always thinking about ourselves, but think about the ecosystem as
Speaker 1: a whole. And and and by doing these things, you're
Speaker 1: helping everybody. You're helping the bitcoin community. Yeah, the more
Speaker 1: people that use it. The better it gets, the faster gets,
Speaker 1: the harder it is for them to enforce any kind
Speaker 1: of coin join bands or stuff like that. So it's
Speaker 1: really important. Yeah, awesome, Well thanks for that overview. UM,
Speaker 1: I'll find some of your resources and link to those
Speaker 1: in the show notes for everybody that wants to know
Speaker 1: more about that. Um. But yeah, good stuff about privacy.
Speaker 1: Hopefully everybody enjoyed that. I'll go ahead and link to
Speaker 1: Matt stuff and so you can follow him. He talks
Speaker 1: a lot about these and links to two more resources
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. UM, so we'll call it with that.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining. Thanks, Thanks very much, Mark, happy to
Speaker 1: be here. Hey, if you like this episode of the
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