1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: this stuff. Welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: Today I am joined by Matt O'Dell. He has a 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: bitcoin privacy advocate. He's the co host of the Tales 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: from the Crypt podcast, and we get into some really 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: good topics today. We talk about privacy, talk about our privacy, 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: why it's important, how it's under attack. We talk about, 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: you know, the state of people, maybe not really carrying 14 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: the pessimistic view, but also the optimistic view of how 15 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: I think technology could actually help that. We get into 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: bitcoin not being as private as people think, but really 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: being anonymous, how it's being you against us, and what 18 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: we can do about it. We get into some tools 19 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: and tactics and strategies that you can do every single 20 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: day to not only increase your privacy and sovereignty, but 21 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: really to benefit the entire community overall. It's a great podcast. 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: It was one that I was really looking forward to 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: doing for quite a while. I'm glad we were able 24 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: to do it. So let's just go ahead and jump 25 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: right in. All right, everybody, Welcome to another episode of 26 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: the Market Disruptors podcast. Today we are joined by Matt 27 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: O'Dell um. He speaks a lot about bitcoin and privacy. 28 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: Is the co host of Tales from the Crypt podcast, 29 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: which is a great podcast I listened to all the time. 30 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: You guys should check it out if you're not already. 31 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: But he talks a lot about privacy. He's really caught 32 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: my eye and I wanted to talk more about that 33 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: for you guys today. So welcome Matt, happy to be 34 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: here in market all right, good? So um, yeah, So 35 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: these are just really important topics. You know, with bitcoin, 36 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: there's so many different topics you can get into. And 37 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: and privacy. Our erosion of privacy and how bitcoin can 38 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: help solve that is definitely a big piece I want 39 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: to bring awareness to. Um, there's a lot we can 40 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: talk about there before we get too deep in. Just 41 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: for anybody who doesn't already know who you are, want 42 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: to just give us like a little background who you 43 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: are and then how you got here what you're doing 44 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: in the space. Yes, so, Um, I mean the easiest 45 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: way to describe myself is I'm just a bitcoiner. Uh. 46 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: You know, I fell into the bigcoin rabbit hole six 47 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: years ago and I haven't looked back. Bitcoin is just 48 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: completely absorbed all my thought processes. My whole life is 49 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: absorbed by bitcoin. Um. So, I like quickly found a 50 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: place like in the in the educational realm of bitcoin, 51 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: trying to sort through all the bullshit that we see. 52 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: Um and Uh, I found Marty. So we do Tales 53 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: from the crypt We do it once a week. We 54 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: do a nice recap show. Um. I also created a 55 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: tool for it's a dead man switch called final message 56 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: dot io um, which is it uses bitcoin as as 57 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: the payments uh and the payments levels so that you 58 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: can pay without giving me any kind of identifying information. 59 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: Um and I. You know, I work a nice to 60 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: be out job that I don't talk about that it 61 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: helps me stacks. That's because I don't have to pay 62 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: attention to the price perfect Um. Yeah, I think it was. 63 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: I've seen a few people talking about it, but I 64 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: think Francis Pollard is the first one I saw. You 65 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: talked about kind of like how thinking about bitcoin changes, 66 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: like even just the way that you think, right, it 67 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: changes almost maybe your reality or whatever. So you said 68 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: that your thought processes have been absorbed. Would you say 69 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: that it changes the way you think? Do you think 70 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: that's true? Oh? Yeah, I mean absolutely. I mean I think, Um, 71 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: you know, I I consider myself a realist and I 72 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: was very pessimistic when I was younger. Um, I didn't 73 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: really see like a solid way out for like the 74 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: house of cards that has been built over the last 75 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: forty fifty years. Um. And you know I, I guess 76 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: you can see you see it a lot in my 77 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: generation and they almost feels like a lost generation. And 78 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: Bigcoin really turned that on its head and gave me hope, UM, 79 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: that there's improvements that can be made, that that we 80 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: can actually do something, that that each of us has 81 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: the ability to to change, um, how this world functions. Uh. 82 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: And then on top of that, I when it clicked 83 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: for me, I was like I just need to like 84 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: my number one goal is just to get as much 85 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: bigcoin as possible. Uh So. And I also come from 86 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: the um, you know, my dad told me at a 87 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: very young age, like you shouldn't be investing in things 88 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: that you don't understand. So when I all that combined, 89 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: I was like, well, now I guess I gotta spend 90 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: five hours a day on this here. I am. Yeah. Um, 91 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, I kind of have a similar story. I 92 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: grew up, Um, I grew up in Texas. I grew 93 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: up in Texas. I don't live there anymore, but you know, 94 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: really conservative of home. My parents were like grassroots political organizers. 95 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: Uh grandfather's vets, fathers a VET. And you know I 96 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: uh so I was super involved, you know, super interested 97 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: in politics. And around like two thousand and twelve ish 98 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: eleven twelve, I got so disillusioned, kind of like what 99 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: you just said, pessimistic, like there's just no chance, there's 100 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: no there's no there's no choices that we have, there's 101 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: no options that we have, and I'm just I'm over it, 102 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 1: Like I don't even want to pay attention because it 103 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: just kind of makes me mad. And then when you 104 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: really when I understood bitcoin and what it really has 105 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: and what it can do, all of a sudden, like you, 106 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: I'm optimistic. Now we actually have a tool, and so 107 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: it's like I think we have a fighting chance now, 108 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: and so like I kind of was the same thing. 109 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: It's like, well, I just want to try and push 110 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: this information as much as we can, because because now 111 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: we have an option, we have a tool. UM. I 112 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: like that. UM. I would say as far as changing 113 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: the way you think, um, one, one thing that I've 114 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,679 Speaker 1: noticed is that it's super interesting to see what happens 115 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: when you have a deflationary currency and what you're spending. 116 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: Thoughts are like, right, all of a sudden, you're like, man, 117 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: do I want to spend this money that could be 118 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: I could park into bitcoin and could be going up 119 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: in value, or do I wanted to spend it on 120 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: something that's pointless? And probably you know, when you start 121 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: to really think about value differently. Yeah, I mean people 122 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: people say like that's a uh, you know, it stops 123 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 1: you from spending bitcoin in particular, but I mean I 124 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: think it it leads you to be more frugal in 125 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: general because even with my you know, my paycheck is 126 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: in FIA, even with my USD, Like, if I spend that, 127 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: then money that's not going into bitcoin, right, So you just, yeah, 128 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: it makes you. It makes you question you know, short 129 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: term thinking versus long term thinking very much. So now 130 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: that's that's a Kinseian argument, right, that says, well, that's bad. 131 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: We we have to encourage spending. So there's a whole 132 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: different train of thought or school of thought. I should 133 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: say that people have to get into that we shouldn't 134 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: always spend, right, we should save. And that can be 135 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: a whole another topic topic on its own, but it 136 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: ends interesting and I think even like you said, with 137 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: the generation and and uh being optimistic it it's encouraging 138 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: for me to see a whole new group of people 139 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: get into bitcoin for whatever reason, the tech or even 140 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: just the money. But then like you've done right where 141 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: you just digging on the research and you start going 142 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: down these rabbit holes and it's created this whole awareness. 143 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: Like even the word fiat, right, wasn't even really used 144 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: that long ago, right, it was a car. Yeah, it's 145 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: a car. Yeah. So now you know, I love seeing 146 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: this education and stuff like that coming out and that's 147 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: really cool. So, um, what I really want to talk 148 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: to you about today was just the privacy piece. Um, 149 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's it's but you have to 150 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: kind of get into the philosophy aspect a little bit. 151 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: But privacy is super important. Um, I agree, and obviously 152 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: you do as well. A lot of people think that 153 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: bitcoin is private, and you know, it's one thing the 154 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: talking heads talk about, which is why it's bad, right, 155 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: people hide all these things. It's for drug dealers, blah 156 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: blah blah. Tell me how you view privacy a little 157 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: bit and why that's important for us. So, Um, I 158 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: mean a lot of a lot of what is shaped 159 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: by thinking in regards to privacy is where was the 160 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: Snowden revelations? I mean, and what what Snowdon brought to 161 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: us was the thing of conspiracy theories, um to have 162 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: you know, massive corporations around the world basically complicit with 163 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: government spy operations on their own citizens as well, right, Um, 164 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: so up until that point, I mean, I I think 165 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: when you start to think about privacy, you have to 166 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: think about who's collecting the information, how are they using 167 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: the information? Right? So, in a lot of these situations, 168 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: if you trust the people collecting the information, there might 169 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: not be many negative effects. Um. The Snowden revelation showed 170 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: us that that we can trust the people collecting those informations. 171 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: This information we can't trust, you know, at least like 172 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: pre Snowdon, you thought like Google was fighting on your side. Apple, 173 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: Apple was fighting on your side. Yahoo, all of them, 174 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: you thought they were all fighting on your side. And 175 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: even if they were collecting the information they were you know, 176 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't part of a like a massive government surveillance operation. UM. 177 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: You know, you could go obviously it's not great that 178 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, Google does target it adds to you and 179 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: all this other stuff. That's a major privacy issue as 180 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: it is. But when you start aggregating all this information together, 181 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: you start to really be able to map people and 182 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: and see how they operate and how they think on 183 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: the on a daily basis, um and and and when 184 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: you when you take that in aggregate, it really becomes 185 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 1: a super powerful tool to to control large amounts of people. Um, 186 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: you can quell descent. You know, you can stop protests 187 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: on just on a granular level to stop protests, but 188 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: you can quell all types of descent. I mean, we 189 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: look in China and we see on um we chat 190 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: there their number one chat app where everyone communicate like 191 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: you just can't say certain words, you can't even communicate 192 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: between each other. That's like a step even before protests. UM. 193 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: So so it really comes down to um, are do 194 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: you want to be a free person or not, because 195 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: if you're if if you give up your privacy, you're 196 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: no longer a free person in today's age because that 197 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: information can be used against you at any time. They 198 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: might not use it against you now, they might not 199 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: use it against you in five years. They may never 200 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: use it against you, but they could at any moment 201 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: decided to use it against you. Yeah. I love what 202 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: Snowdon said. He had a quote that really caught my eye. 203 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: And I think about a lot, which is those who 204 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: say they don't have need a right to privacy because 205 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: they have nothing to hide. He's like saying, you don't 206 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: need freedom of speech because you have nothing to say. 207 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: And I think, um, like what you said, Maybe they'll 208 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: never use it against you. I think they will. So, 209 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, what we've seen, and what we've seen is 210 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: that we continue to have this division right and and 211 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: people are more polarized than ever. And so I think 212 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: no matter which side you're on, pro life or pro 213 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: choice or Democratic Republican or whatever, it doesn't matter which 214 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: side you're on, there's gonna be somebody on the opposite side. 215 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: And so there's always somebody who's gonna want to discriminate 216 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 1: you against that because of one of your decisions. And 217 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: and and then maybe you know, especially now with it 218 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: being stored forever, something that you may have done the 219 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: past could could be there forever. Yeah, Let's say you 220 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: pissed someone off that's empowered ten years down the line. 221 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: They can just pull up all your text messages that 222 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: you've ever sent. They can just take it to pieces. 223 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 1: You know, maybe there's some little there's so many intricate laws, 224 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: I mean in America, but think about worldwide. But they 225 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: can just pick up something and be like, you know 226 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: that was illegal, you did that wrong. Let me throw 227 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: you in jail. You know, blackmail, all types of blackmail. 228 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: People don't think like porn habits, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, 229 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: And what happens is is, uh, you know, when I 230 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: start to worry that people are going to be listening 231 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: and watching, then I start censoring myself what I say. 232 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: And then when I start censoring myself what I say, 233 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: then I starts censoring myself what I think. And when 234 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: I start to censor my thoughts and creativity, guys, And 235 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 1: that's a massive problem. Yeah, I mean, it's very intertwined 236 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: with free speech. I would say because I mean, without privacy, 237 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: it's really hard to have, like I just pretty much 238 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: impossible to have free speech. Yeah, so it seems like 239 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: it's under attack. We see, Um, you know in Hong 240 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: Kong they've been having these these protests which you mentioned. 241 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: Uh I saw you tweet I think today yesterday about 242 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: these kids being spied on at school the China social 243 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: credit system. So do you feel that this is like 244 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: it's getting to be a bigger and bigger problem now. 245 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: I guess survey or technology helps that. Yeah. I mean 246 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: I think we're just to put my pessimistic hat on again. 247 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: I mean I think we're kind of we're kind of screwed. 248 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: Uh uh in terms of the like encroaching surveillance state, 249 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's here we can push back. Um, we 250 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: can use tools that will help us. We have like 251 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: the rise of like the encrypted messengers, which is really good, 252 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: which we saw basically the onus is basically the Snowden revelations. 253 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: But now we have like signal, um, you know, WhatsApp 254 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: added encryption. Who even knows if that's legit or not. Um, 255 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: you got like Telegram, key base, we have we have 256 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: some we have more tools. I mean, look at I message, 257 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: I message is isn't is the number one in messaging 258 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: app in America. I'm pretty sure it's got full encryption 259 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: on it. Um. Does the US government able to see it? Possibly? 260 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 1: But like at least everyone else can see it. Um. 261 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: So there's some glimmers of hope there. UM. But the 262 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: stuff like the facial tracking and UM traditional payments tracking, 263 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we might have already lost that battle. 264 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: I mean what you were talking about with the schools 265 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: is is like classic UM, classic government and like corporation playbook, 266 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: where you basically the parents are scared of school shooters. Right, 267 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: So you play on that fear, and then you go 268 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: completely over aboard and you install facial recognition throughout the 269 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: whole school, and you map all the kids and you're 270 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: able to see where they move, who they talked to. UM, 271 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: they have government, if they have school issued computers, you 272 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: track all their communications on the computers. And and that's 273 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: where we saw on a larger scale with the Patriot 274 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: Act Actor September eleven. Right, so you have September eleven, 275 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: you put a bill up that just destroys everyone's rights, 276 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: and you just call it the Patriot Act because everyone 277 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: scares as hell. Yeah, that's the best way to get 278 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: someone to give up their rights is to scare them. 279 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: And I think maybe the quote isn't. They can't really 280 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: tell who've said it, but I think Jeffer Center or 281 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: Frank Benjamin Franklin said right that those who are willing 282 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: to give up freedom for privacy deserved either you know, 283 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: some something to that regard. And and so people are 284 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: willing to give that up because they're scared. They want protection, 285 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: but he says they deserve neither. And that's ultimately what 286 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: you get. You don't get protection or privacy or freedom. Um. Yeah, 287 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: recognition isn't. The facial recognition of schools is not going 288 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: to stop school shootings. No, And look if you look 289 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: back even you know, the overreach that we have at 290 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: the airport's. I mean, if you've the fly out of 291 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: l a X takes three hours, you know, and it's 292 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: like none of that what they did would have stopped that, 293 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: you know, whatever happened on nine eleven. So, um, I 294 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: agree with you on that. Yeah. Literally, they solved the 295 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: vulnerability of nine eleven by reinforcing the cockpit doors and 296 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: telling the pilots they weren't allowed to go into the 297 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: cabin if something happened like that solved it. That's all 298 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: they had to do. You couldn't get into the cockpit, 299 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: no one could, no one, No one could take over 300 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: the plane and fly into a building. That solved that. 301 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: Everything else is just security theater designed to and you know, 302 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: a rotor civil liberties. And also I think it's even 303 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: it's even more sinister than that because it kind of, 304 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: um it like builds in this default that people get 305 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: used to that that you know, they go to the 306 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: they go to the airport, and they're used to just 307 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: having no rights whatsoever, just getting completely searched zero like, 308 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: so they're like they're setting us up there. They started 309 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: adding facial recognition and for like check ins and stuff. 310 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: A lot of the airlines yep I Marty says this 311 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: a lot on our podcast that the airports in America 312 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: are like very much a testing ground. That that's what 313 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: we think. It's very much a testing ground to uh, 314 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: to erote our privacy and our our liberties further. Yeah, 315 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: it's definitely desensitization. Like you said, right, we're getting used 316 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: to it, and I mean you have no rights. I 317 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: mean you if you mess up even standing in line. 318 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: I mean, they have the right to you know, who 319 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: knows what they're gonna do with you there. But I think, 320 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: as you said, you know, it's it's, it's it is. 321 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: It is easy to be a pessimist to see this, uh, 322 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, encroachment or this continual growth in app Um, 323 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: I'm kind of, uh, I'm kind of starting to think 324 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: a little bit optimistically, and I want to see what 325 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: you think about this. So, um, you did mention that, 326 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, we do kind of have this rise of 327 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: encryption apps, which is pretty cool. Um. I think it's 328 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: been kind of a perfect storm because on one hand, 329 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: you have people today who think they don't need privacy 330 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: and they're willing to give up their privacy for freedom. 331 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: So people don't care about it, and at the same time, 332 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: we have technology making it easier. So it's like this 333 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: perfect storm to make it worse, but at the same 334 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: time that the same technology is also giving us a 335 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: way out. So you talked about messengers and messenger apps 336 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: and whatnot. But what I'm starting to see is I 337 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: think really the big piece was this Facebook scandal, this 338 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: data scandal, and people starting to realize that holy crap, 339 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: my data is being compromised. We have all these data 340 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: breaches and whatnot, and I'm almost wondering. I'm thinking that 341 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: we might start seeing big corporations. We've already seen Microsoft 342 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: jumping in to try to offer privacy back and maybe 343 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: they maybe that might be a competitive edge. Maybe we'll 344 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: start to see big corporations start to compete on that 345 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: and really help push that narrative. What do you think 346 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: about that? I mean, we've seen it. Apple kind of 347 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 1: stumbled into it, but they've they've solidified it and made 348 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: it like a key pillar of their marketing, the privacy 349 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: st angle, which is good to see. UM. You know, I, 350 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: as you just said, Microsoft is also pivoting to be 351 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: more privacy focused. UM. I like to see that. I 352 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: think the market is demanding it. Um. It comes down 353 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: to the Snowden revelations again, though do we trust those people? 354 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: Is there any way to verify it? There's no way 355 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: to verify it. Um. So because we're talking about you know, 356 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about closed source software here where you can't 357 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: you can't even look at the source code. We don't 358 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: know what's going on. Well, if we see like what 359 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: Microsoft did right with I on putting it on a 360 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: block on the on the bitcoin blockchain. Maybe, yeah, I mean, 361 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: I just it comes down to trust. I think they're 362 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: all complicit. They can all get pushed behind back back 363 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: back rooms and just forced with legal uh you know, 364 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: legal ramifications. Uh. The thing is, UM, I do agree 365 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: that right now, more people care about privacy than they've 366 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: ever that that I've ever cared about in the history 367 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: of the world. I mean, partly because we have more 368 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: people in general, but it's it's trending up right, and 369 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: as we put more information online, there will be more leaks, 370 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: there will be more compromises, there will be more people 371 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: that directly get their civil liberties stepped on. Um. And 372 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: people will wake up one at a time, you know. 373 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: But the question is where when they do wake up, 374 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: is it gonna be too late at that point? Right? 375 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: We have to make sure that that we don't you know, 376 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: just completely fall off the cliff before that. Yeah, And 377 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: I think so, well, you know, we'll transition into bitcoin 378 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: because that's the big piece. And I really believe that 379 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: you know, bitcoin is you know, is a lot of things. Um. 380 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us believe it can be 381 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: a new you know, monetary base layer, But I think 382 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: it almost solves every problem. So for example, if the 383 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: government didn't have unlimited, unlimited spending, if the government didn't 384 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: have unlimited spending, they probably wouldn't have unlimited overreach in 385 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: technology either, right, So if we could limit their spending, 386 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: we could limit their overreach at the same time. So 387 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 1: maybe it helps that. Yeah, I mean I think it 388 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: all goes hand in hand, right U. I mean when 389 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: you when you start to talk about things like censorship, 390 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: resistance UM in terms of bitcoin, I mean, you need 391 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: to have the the supply needs to be transparent, you 392 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: need to have a known monetary policy, which in bitcoins 393 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: cas is very simple, it's just fixed UM and and 394 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: because otherwise, like I think censorship comes in into play 395 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,479 Speaker 1: as well with with um inflation or something like that. 396 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: If they're able to inflate the supply, if they're able 397 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: to do all this other stuff, and if you don't 398 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: have a native token, then we can't use this technology 399 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: to transfer value in the first place, right because then 400 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: you know, and all these stuff that like oh we'll 401 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: create a token that's like backed by gold or something 402 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: like that. You need to have a company that has 403 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: like a warehouse that's filled with gold and you have 404 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: to trust them that they're saying that there's actually gold 405 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: in the warehouse or whatever. Right, So that requires trust, 406 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: which which bitcoin doesn't. So we have bitcoin and it 407 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: can be a lot of things. I think we can 408 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: talk about it today in in the sense of privacy 409 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: and so, you know, it's one it's one thing to 410 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: have like your your web surfing information taken when you 411 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: think about privacy, or your travel information taken. But when 412 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: you get access to the financial data, that's got to 413 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: be the most private of all. And so that's essentially 414 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: what is potentially you know, it's at risk here right 415 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: where we're going to a completely digital currency um and 416 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: then they have access to all the financial records. And 417 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: bitcoin is not really as private as people think. Um. 418 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: You want to maybe just explained that for a minute. 419 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: I mean I would say I would say they already 420 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: have all that information. Um or like our our current 421 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: system is like pretty much digital as it is to 422 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: begin with, it's all being tracked. It's all not just 423 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: by the government, which is absolutely tracking. You know, you 424 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: do any kind of thing that when you go into 425 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: a bank. When I go into a bank, I don't 426 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: feel like a client. I feel like a criminal. I 427 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: feel like they're constantly looking at me trying to figure out, 428 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: like what am I doing with my money? Should I 429 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: report them to the government, Should I do this? Should 430 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: I do that? Um? And then you have the corporations 431 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: that track you. All the credit card companies are tracking you, 432 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: like the discount sites, all this stuff. They're all tracking 433 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:20,239 Speaker 1: your payments. Um and yeah, and and bitcoin is is 434 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: is hope among all of that mess. Now, Bitcoin as 435 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 1: it stands, if you just use it naturally, it's not 436 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: private at all. I mean it kind of. I mean, 437 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: I guess it's a it's a step improvement in some ways, 438 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: and somewhat anonymous in some ways because if you if 439 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: you get if I like give you cash and you 440 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: pay me bitcoin, then you're the only person who knows 441 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: that address is mine. Right then I can pretty much 442 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: spend it anonymously, but you know where I spend it on. 443 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: So it's not fully right, it's not fully private, but 444 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: like no government entity or something else would be able 445 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: to tell. And then then I, unless they use these 446 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,239 Speaker 1: chain analysis type software, is they start tracked. Now you 447 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: give to somebody else who then it's tracked in their 448 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: ky seed and then they somehow piece all this together. Right, 449 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: but the only person who knows I paid you cash 450 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: for that bitcoin is you. So but but then the 451 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: step backwards is is that all these transactions are being 452 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: stored on this a mutable ledger that could presumably we 453 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: were hoping, will last for hundreds of years, where every 454 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: transaction is shown on this ledger. So if you if 455 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: you make a mistake in the future where somehow you 456 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: get connected to a line of transactions, they might be 457 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: able to go back and give you ship for things 458 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: you did ten years in the past, fifteen years in 459 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: the past, use that to make judgments against you and 460 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: persecute you, uh, seize your bitcoin, seize your wealth, do 461 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: all this other stuff. Um. So it's it's a really 462 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: tricky situation. UM that doesn't have a perfect solution because, 463 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: as we said earlier, the the fact that the that 464 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: the ledgers transparent is also a major benefit. Um. There 465 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: are but there are starting to be some options. And 466 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: that's where really where I want to get into. And 467 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: I know you you kind of talk about on Twitter. Um, 468 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: you know with Sabi Wednesdays, you talk about that. So 469 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: there's there's an option with Sabi I know there's a 470 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: couple of other options that are out there as well. UM, 471 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: maybe you can just kind of tell us what the 472 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 1: SABI Wednesday is and how that can help people, um 473 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: with some of that privacy. Right. So with SABI is 474 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,479 Speaker 1: an implementation is a is a piece of software that 475 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: runs in your computer that implements uh something they're calling 476 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: charming and coin joint, which is coin joint, which is 477 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: a m I think was developed by Greg Maxwell. Uh is. 478 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: Basically the idea is that you can and a trust 479 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: minimized fashion, you can combine your coins with a bunch 480 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: of other people. So like let's say we all put 481 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: in a hundred dollars like ton of us, and then 482 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: the hundred dollar bills go to different people, right, so 483 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: you can't tell, you know what one of ten got it, 484 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: but you don't know who who have the ten got 485 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: which one. Um, so it breaks that trail of transactions 486 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: that's in the ledger that shows transaction to transaction to 487 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: transaction to transaction. Now, the issue here is if you 488 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: only do with ten people, then it doesn't really help 489 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: you that much, right because you you know it's one 490 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: of ten, So you've got to do with more people, 491 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why I've been pushing 492 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: with Saby so hard is because it doesn't really work well. 493 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: And unless the more people we get, the better it works, 494 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: the faster works. Um. And it's still not a silver 495 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: bullet because you have, um, all it takes is the 496 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: problem with privacy is that all it takes is like 497 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: one or two mistakes and you can just everything could 498 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: just go get thrown out the window. So it takes 499 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: a lot of education and a lot of there's a 500 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: lot of nuance um. And I've been trying to educate 501 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: as best as possible. UM. And yeah, I mean it. 502 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: It's it's not with Sabby is has coined it is 503 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: not a new idea. With Saby has made it easier 504 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: than ever to do it in a pretty private fashion. Um. 505 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: You know. They it requires the central server their implementation 506 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: to coordinate the round where everyone combines. But the central 507 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: server can't take your money, and it all runs through tours, 508 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: so the central server can identify you individually on on 509 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: whose output and whose input. Um. You know a lot 510 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: of centralized mixing services. That was the issue is that 511 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: the centralized server could you were trusting the centralized server 512 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: no one else could tell where your transactions were going 513 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: as long as that centralized server was actually being honest 514 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: and and not doing it. And they that those centralized 515 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: servers can take your money with with SAVY, they can't 516 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: take your money, um and and they it's pretty hard 517 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: for them to tell who you are because it all 518 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: runs through tour and so you need to get more 519 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: people to use it. But but it's it's not something 520 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: you can do after the fact, Like you have to basically, 521 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: not only do you have to coin join now before 522 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: you send other transactions, you have to keep on You're 523 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: gonna have to keep on mixing like you're gonna have 524 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: to keep on coin joining in the future otherwise um like, 525 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: transactions will get linked you. Again. If you said, like 526 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: if you put a donation address up for this podcast, 527 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: and you say, you know, send me bitcoin on mark 528 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: to this address if you like the pot um that 529 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: address now is connected to you, and any transactions to 530 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: and from that address could presumably be yours. There's a 531 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: safe assumption to be made there that they're yours. If 532 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: you then send that to your main wallet or something, 533 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: then we we all know how much bitcoin you have 534 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: in that main wallet. So you just have to constantly 535 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: be doing coin joints. Um. I guess with lightning that 536 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: there's there's potential there to reduce the need to remix, 537 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: but it's yet to be fully seen how that what 538 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,959 Speaker 1: those implications will be. And I know there's also like 539 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 1: Samurai wallet now has their whirlpool and I saw like 540 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: they have like they they made it seems like it's 541 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: pretty easy, like with the new app that they have, 542 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: and um you can stack it on like the nodal 543 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: lid not a lit or whatever, So it'll be Samurai 544 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: will be much easier than they're in Vata right now. 545 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: So it requires software that you run in your computer, 546 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: which is what Wassabi requires to but in the future, 547 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: in Samurai while you'll be able to just open your phone, click, 548 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: start mixing and it'll just it'll just handle it for you. Um. 549 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: So I mean the way it should works. Every time 550 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: I received bitcoin would be mixed, and before I send it, 551 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: I mix it so it's in and out right. Yeah, 552 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: just constantly, you just have to constantly be mixing. And 553 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: like for your cold storage, like you would have to 554 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: do a situation where any any transactions you sent into 555 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: cold storage have to go through coin joint before they 556 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: get to your cold storage, and then when they come out, 557 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: they should go through coin join again otherwise on the 558 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 1: on the outward. Uh so both like if for your 559 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: cold storage, you should insulate it with cold coin join 560 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: on both sides, if you if you're adding to it 561 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: or if you're removing removing from it. Yeah. Now I've 562 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: been interested in this because you know, they use this 563 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: word fungibility, which means, you know, one bitcoin should be 564 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: equal and it should be equally tradeable, um, like a 565 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: dollar is, and you know something crazy like I don't know, 566 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: ninety dollars have cocaine on them or whatever, but like 567 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: nobody seems to care about that. But supposedly a bitcoin 568 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: becomes tainted, and I think jane Aalysis and other firms 569 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: actually like kind of great bitcoins, and they could say 570 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: these bitcoins aren't as good as other bitcoins and that 571 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: messes up the funge ability. So um, in order to 572 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: kind of prevent that or preserve this fungeability where all 573 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: bitcoins are equal, then we kind of need everybody to participate, 574 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: as you're saying, right, So then if everybody were to 575 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: mix their transactions, then all the history gets erased, and 576 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: then all bitcoins could be equal. Again. I mean I 577 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: think there's like a there's like a critical mass number. 578 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be like everybody. Um, there's like 579 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: a critical mass. And we have you know of bitcoin 580 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: in circulation or something. I have a history of coin 581 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: join at some point, right. Uh. You know, because because 582 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: the main argument against the fungibility, the main argument with 583 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: funge ability is concerned is that, um if if you 584 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: send bitcoin right now to an exchange and that and 585 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: that bitcoin has a history of let's say like a 586 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: dark market or something. Maybe you didn't even use a 587 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: dark market. Maybe someone who had bitcoin five people down 588 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: the road used it for a dark market. You got 589 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: tipped for your podcast, and now you have some dark 590 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: market bitcoin, and you send that to coin base, right 591 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: coin based entertained analysis on it, they say this is 592 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: a silk grow bitcoin. They freeze your account. Right, that's 593 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: an issue we can't that's that that destroys bigcoin as 594 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: a useful money. Um And because for you imagine, one 595 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: of the beauties of bitcoin is that it reduces friction 596 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: in terms of exchanging exchanging money and goods. If you 597 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: have to deal with that, there's so much additional friction there. 598 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: I mean you have to literally chain analysis all your 599 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: tips as you as you bring them in. You gotta 600 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: do that. Do we see that happening today? Yeah? I 601 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: mean they they're doing it right now. If there's like 602 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: an obvious connection. Um. So, so if you use coin 603 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: join in between there, they and you do it effective, 604 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: you do it enough rounds, you're patient about it, you 605 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: actually like cross your teas and stuff, and you send it. 606 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 1: There's no way for them to tell where that bitcoin 607 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: came from. So if we have like bitcoin users, bitcoin 608 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: transactions are running through coin join, um it will become 609 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: ridiculously hard for them to enforce. So so then so 610 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: then the issue there is what ms if they say, well, 611 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: we'll just blacklist anything that is coin too. Right, It's 612 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: a question I was gonna ask, Right, so how does 613 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: that band look like if I are you saying that 614 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: it just immediately used coin join? Are you saying that, 615 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, what does if I just send it send 616 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: a bitcoin back to myself to a bunch of different 617 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: addresses and like do like six hops and the coin 618 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: joint happened, you know, seven transactions ago. It wasn't a 619 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: recent transaction did I do the coin join? Did you 620 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: do the coin like? Who? Who did that coin join? 621 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: Do I have to? So once we hit a certain 622 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: threshold there, um, I think those concerns really go out 623 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: the window because you have UM, it'll be so easy 624 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: to just move into coin join. And even if the 625 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: exchange says the you know, we're not going to take 626 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: an immediate coin join and you just put a couple 627 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: of hops in there and then you send it on UM, 628 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: that should destroy should new to those those sponge ability 629 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: concerns UM, And I think I think from the exchange's 630 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: point of view, the services point of view, or the 631 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: podcast hosts point of view, receiving bitcoin like I would 632 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: rather receive bitcoin where I couldn't tell where it came from. 633 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: Why do I want the liability of knowing exactly where 634 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: that bitcoin has been where it's going? Like? Why do 635 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: I want to know that? That just puts me bigger, 636 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: That just gives me a bigger issue. So I think, 637 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think services and you know, merchants 638 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: and stuff will will encourage it. I think they'll prefer 639 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: to receive coins that have going through coin join. That 640 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: was one thing I heard at the Bitcoin Friends um, 641 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: a couple weeks ago, is they said, kind of, it's 642 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: it's almost like our responsibility to kind of to to 643 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: remove that history right to make sure that they can 644 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: only see one transaction back. And if they could only 645 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: ever see one transaction back, then it gives us back 646 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: to that digital cash, which is basically what cash is. 647 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: And you know the argument, I mean, I whatever their 648 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: argument about, like money laundering, I guess is is somewhat relevant, 649 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: I suppose, But I mean, if you think about it, 650 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: like banks have been find hundreds of billions of dollars 651 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: for money laundering. All the money that we use has 652 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: been laundered at one point probably right or or high probability. Um, 653 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: And there's just no reason why I should have to 654 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: carry that uh that that around so just because they can, 655 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's kind of ridiculous. I mean, yeah, 656 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: I mean, the number one tool for money laundering is 657 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: the US dollar. But like no one or I mean, 658 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: I guess people have one of the reasons, I'm bullet 659 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: tramp big points because people have been arguing the effocacy 660 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: of cash. They don't want they want to get rid 661 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: of cash. Yeah, so so we're gonna need a digital 662 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: little equivalent. But yeah, I I I mean I think 663 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: the money laundering argument is a is a weak argument, 664 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: and it is one usually leveled by people that trust 665 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: the state because basically, I mean, the definition of money 666 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: laundry is like doing with your money something like your 667 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: government doesn't want you to do with your money. Yeah, yeah, 668 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: all right, now, um, we have a couple of other options. 669 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: Just real quickly. You've mentioned about lightning. I know, uh, 670 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: lightning kind of you can do some kind of private 671 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: you know, peer to peer transactions. I think blockstream now 672 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: what they're green, they have like confidential transactions or whatever, 673 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: So you think that also helps. So like I could 674 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: mix them that I have offline that you and I 675 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: can do confidential transactions back and forth, and that kind 676 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: of mixes it up even more. Yeah, That's what I'm saying, 677 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: is like imagine, like just trying to imagine like what 678 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: a coin joint band could look like, right, Like I 679 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: I I don't see how you can enforce it because 680 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: like imagine you go coin join and then you go 681 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: into liquid the liquid side chain. Then you send a 682 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: couple of transactions as they have confidential transactions, so the 683 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: balances are blocked but not to and from who's going 684 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 1: to wear and then you pull out of liquid. Now 685 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, your your bitcoin is a history 686 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: of liquid that doesn't have a history. You've got different 687 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: bitcoin than the coin joint. Well, like how do you 688 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: It's or like you go into lightning, You you fund 689 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: the lightning channel, you send some lightning payments, you close 690 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: up the lightning channel, Like is that a coin joint transaction? Now? 691 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: Like it gets really it turns into basically like if 692 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: they wanted to bandcoin join their banning bitcoin self custody altogether. 693 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: You can't withdraw bitcoin, you can't deposit bitcoin. It's just 694 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: the number in your t d amrit rate account. And 695 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: then I mean at that point we have bigger we 696 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: have bigger issues. Yeah, and I think they're they already 697 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: kind of want to do that, right even with this 698 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: new f a t F deal where they want to 699 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: like you have to send the transaction details and whatnot. 700 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: I think, Um, I love this. You know the statement 701 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: that says, though, um, you know your government banning it 702 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: is even more reason why you want it or need it, right, 703 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: so um, they almost just kind of pushed that use case. 704 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: It really the whole argument is is kind of ridiculous anyway, 705 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: where Okay, it pushes terrorism and it pushes drugs, well, 706 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: should drugs even be legal? And I mean illegal anyway? 707 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: Who are you to tell me what I can and 708 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: cannot put in my body? Like, So that's that's a 709 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: that's a whole different argument. And terrorism, I mean, come on, 710 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: who's the largest supplier of terrorism? Is my little transaction 711 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: is actually helping terrorism? And those are a lot of 712 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: topics as well. The number one tool for terrorists is 713 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: the US dollars. Once again, you know, we come back 714 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: to I do think, to be completely frank, like, I 715 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: think we will see a terrorist attack in like in 716 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: the future at some point and they will say they 717 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: funded it with bitcoin, and they will use it to 718 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: crack down a bitcoin I bet you. I bet you. 719 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: The number one tool for terrorism is not dollars. I 720 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,479 Speaker 1: bet you. It's mobile phones. Yeah, they love mobile phones, 721 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: but I bet they're using I bet they're using cars too. 722 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: I bet cars is probably a big tool they use. 723 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: I mean, come on, right, like they probably use airplanes. 724 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: I bet airplanes are big tools that terrorism uses. I mean, 725 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: we could just go on and on and on, you know, 726 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: I mean they were, they were talking. I remember they 727 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: were the realest in European attacks that were being leveled. 728 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: They used it to try and fight encryption, say that 729 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: you can't use encrypton chat apps. And like all the 730 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: all the terrorists on the ground, they were using burner phones. 731 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,879 Speaker 1: They were using no encryption whatsoever. They were just using 732 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: burner phones. Yeah, we can go on and on and on, 733 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: but we'll go ahead and wrap it up. I know 734 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,839 Speaker 1: we're getting along here, so I know you've put out 735 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of good resources for people that want to 736 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: get more into into this in the privacy um, and 737 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: maybe I'll link to some of those in the show 738 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: notes for everybody. UM. I don't know if you could 739 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: just kind of recap really quickly, maybe like a couple 740 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: of things that you think so you know, coin joining 741 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: with Sabi or or Samurai, having your own NOE, using 742 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: a tour browser. I mean, just a couple of things 743 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: real quick. Okay, let's try and we'll try and to 744 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: still it. Well, let's try. So I think right now, 745 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: the best simplest and like the best bang for your 746 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: buck in terms of simple to uh private uh is 747 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: is you and all of a sabby on your computer. 748 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: You use that from now on to connect to your 749 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: hardware wallet. It supports the top three hardware while it's 750 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: cold card, Ledger, and treasure UM. So one of the 751 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: issues when people connect with their harder whilet they don't 752 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: realize if they if they use the treasurer app or 753 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: they use the Ledger app, they're sending all their transactions 754 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: and data through Ledger and treasure servers. So I am 755 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: I have no reason to believe that they're collecting that 756 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: information and using it against us, but they could presumably 757 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: you have to trust them. So you connect your with 758 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: saby to with your hardware wallet, even in light mode, 759 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,720 Speaker 1: if you're not running your own note it's way more private. 760 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: And even better is if you run your own note 761 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: UM with saby automatically connects to that UM if you're 762 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:45,959 Speaker 1: running it on the same computer, and if you're running 763 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: it on a different computer, you can connect it to UM, 764 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: you can connect it to your with saby, And the 765 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: beauty there is is you get sovereignty benefits because you're 766 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: verifying all your transactions yourself. And it's additional privacy because 767 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: UM just just the way you're getting all the blocked 768 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: out you're getting all the transaction down and not just 769 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 1: your own specific transaction, so it gives you some additional privacy. 770 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: UM and then mix and within with Sabi. It's really 771 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: really easy to mix your coins and with Sabi, you 772 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: just queue them up for coin joint and UM and 773 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: just mix those around. You know. The thing is like, 774 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: don't be scared of it, because even if you suck 775 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: it up, it's like way better. You know, don't like 776 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: just jump in and use it for like life and 777 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: death situations without properly learning about it. But if if 778 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: you're just like a normal person that just wants to 779 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: reclaim your privacy back, it's a net benefit. There's there's 780 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: no there's no situation where you use with SABI and 781 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: you lose more privacy than you've had before. Right, It's 782 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: really the point I want everyone to pick up is 783 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: not just about your privacy. It's for the whole ecosystem. So, um, 784 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: let's not be so selfish where everyone, you know, we're 785 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: always thinking about ourselves, but think about the ecosystem as 786 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: a whole. And and and by doing these things, you're 787 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: helping everybody. You're helping the bitcoin community. Yeah, the more 788 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: people that use it. The better it gets, the faster gets, 789 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: the harder it is for them to enforce any kind 790 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: of coin join bands or stuff like that. So it's 791 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,839 Speaker 1: really important. Yeah, awesome, Well thanks for that overview. UM, 792 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: I'll find some of your resources and link to those 793 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: in the show notes for everybody that wants to know 794 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: more about that. Um. But yeah, good stuff about privacy. 795 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: Hopefully everybody enjoyed that. I'll go ahead and link to 796 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: Matt stuff and so you can follow him. He talks 797 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: a lot about these and links to two more resources 798 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. UM, so we'll call it with that. 799 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining. Thanks, Thanks very much, Mark, happy to 800 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: be here. Hey, if you like this episode of the 801 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: Market Disruptors Podcast, please help us take this to the 802 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 1: top of the podcast charts. Just please do me a 803 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: favor and rate review and subscribe. Taking fifteen seconds to 804 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: just leave a quick review goes a long way and 805 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: helping us reach more people and disrupt more markets. I 806 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: really appreciate you listening and I'll see you next time 807 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: on the Market Instructors Podcast. FO