WEBVTT - Freedom Is Expensive: Michael Arceneaux Can't Die Poor 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.560 Welcome to PM mood, the no Talking Points, no Bullshit 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.239 podcast that takes you behind the curtain, off the red carpet, 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.240 and to the front lines of progress with change makers 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.200 and innovators that are doing the work to shift our 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:33.000 culture and expand our social impact. Folks, I am so 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:38.159 excited to welcome to PM mood The New York Times. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:43.040 A best selling author of I Can't Date, Jesus, Love, Sex, family, race, 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:46.479 and other Reasons, I've put my faith in Beyonce and 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.760 the author of the new book I Don't Want to Die. 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:55.760 Poor Michael Arsenau, Thank you so much for joining PM mood. 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.080 How are you doing? Thank you for having me. I 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:02.000 am as well as can be an a pandemic in 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:07.160 which we're all fearing for our laws. I'm grateful, yes, 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.040 and I am grateful to have you on. It's wild 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.520 because when I started PM mood, the idea was not 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:19.680 to talk about current events and to explore different avenues 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.920 of folks like yourself, who are super talented and offer 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.679 so much to explore different things. But we just we 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:28.800 can't seem to escape the world that we are currently 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.399 living in. So before we jump into your latest book, 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.520 which in all honesty. The conversations around being in debt, 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.680 going through variations and varied levels of brokeness is something 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.679 that now more people than ever are probably sharing. In 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:49.320 this time where ten million people have now applied for 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.520 unemployment due to the coronavirus. That number is only going 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:54.880 to continue to go up. So many people are losing 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.640 their livelihoods, their jobs, and so a public health crisis 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.920 has turned into an economic crisis of epic proportions as well. 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:07.960 So how are you navigating this moment as an author, 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.840 as a content creator? How are you navigating this? Well? 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.480 For me, like, I have a book coming out and 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.920 I have to function, So am I worried about my health? Obviously? 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:20.880 I'm in New York, which is not the best place 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:22.799 to be. The only other option I really have to 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.200 go back to Texas, Artifa, Houston, which is not a 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.520 good place to be, particularly even being around my parents. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.359 So I haven't following the news. I'm a news junkie, obviously, 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:32.160 I mean obviously, but I'm a news junkie. So I've 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.320 been quietly paying attention to this entire time, and then, 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.400 just in my dumb luck, I've recently been to I've 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:40.320 been in New York. I've been to New Orleans, and 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.240 I've been to La all within March, and within like 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.040 the two weeks where everything basically shut down. I actually 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.320 got to New York right before shut down. Here I 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.280 am as then as can be. But that is because 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:53.600 in a lot of ways, while I'm not used to 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.760 the doomsday plot aspect of this, including the racist game 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.679 show host kind of leading us to ruin, I do 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.240 know what it's like to be constrained. I know it 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.680 for one reason or another. I know it's like not 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.760 to have a lot of financial options and hardship. So 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.280 I'm familiar with a lot of what people are experiencing 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.920 right now, but I knew for me, like I feel 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:16.080 very strange asking people to buy my book. I didn't 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.400 invent capitalism, but I don't want to be squallowed whole 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:20.840 by it either. But I really do believe in my 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.560 book and the messaging of it, and so I to 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:25.280 be I mean, not to be honest. It's always challenging 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.920 being black and queer and frankly not centering white people 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.079 in your work, and me making sure my narrative is 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.520 not consumed in a way I think sometimes otherness is, 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:35.840 you know, it's it's hard for me in general just 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.560 to get into certain spaces. So it was already challenging 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:40.960 that the coronavirus, this has been even harder to kind 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:42.600 of get my message out there and try to tell 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.000 people about the book. So I kind of just turned 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.600 to myself. I'm going on Instagram. You know, I appreciate 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:52.280 people that say you're like naturally good with this. I really, 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:53.680 I mean, I would love to be doing more of it, 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.040 but frankly, I don't always like doing it. Like I 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.440 wake up every morning. You know, I thought I was 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:00.680 handling it really well, and then you know, the third week, 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.000 I've wiping up at like one o'clock and one thirty 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:04.960 in the morning. I can't go back to sleep. I 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.920 go to sleep at seven o'clock. I'm honestly, I hope. 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:09.880 I'm rambled. I'm doing the best that I can, and 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.520 I have a schedule. I already maintained a schedule because 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.600 I worked primarily from home. I've been more stringent about 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:17.839 the schedule. But one thing that I allowed myself to do, 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:19.800 which is what I didn't used to do before when 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:21.840 I was really really struggling, I will say that I'm 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.160 scared about what's coming. Yeah, but I'm in a much 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.920 better space than I was yesterday and the year before, 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:28.680 because last year, when I was writing this book was 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:30.279 back to a nightmare for me. It reminded me of 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.240 the fragility of all of our situations. That aside, I 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.599 stick to a schedule, But what I really do is 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.640 that I allowed myself to bend from the schedule when 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.159 mentally I'm not there. I try to be there for 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.120 my friends, for who for them this is a new 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:45.279 reality something my friends have been laid off. They don't 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.719 have a freelance. They work about assurance. I try to 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:52.320 be present for them, but I also pull away when 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.760 I can't do it because I have to function. Like 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:56.760 when I have to function, I have to talk to you. 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:58.920 I have to be clear headed. I have to promote 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:00.960 my book in this message I really believe in it. 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.200 I have to go online, I have to talk to people. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:04.640 I got to check on my family, got to please 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:06.880 with my mom and everybody else, to stay home. I 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:08.719 have to do all these things like everybody else, and 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.480 still kind of promote. So I try to be disciplined 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:14.040 about it. But if I'm like you know what, I 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.200 don't have it in me. Right now, I disconnect and 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:19.640 I do whatever I need to do to calm down 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.320 that moment and give myself space. Hopefully that makes sense. 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.760 But yeah, I'm really big about giving space. It makes 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.200 a ton of sense. I think that. You know, there 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:33.200 have been so many memes and challenges to try and 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.480 uplift people's spirits, and you know, but in a way 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.240 they also create a lot of pressure, right because there 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.960 is this assumption that we all have all of this 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.599 extra time on our hands and should be focusing on 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:51.520 being as productive as possible and churning out content if 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.239 that's what you do on a regular basis, And much 0:05:55.360 --> 0:06:00.800 like you, I find myself waking up zapped of any passion, 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.880 of any drive, of any focus, And on those days, 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.240 I just have to be gentle with myself because you're 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.520 not supposed to be creative and upbeat in the midst 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.400 of a global pandemic. And I think that we will 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.120 all struggle through these different waves of this new normal 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.359 and how to deal with ourselves and those that we 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:24.960 love and care about, and for those of us that 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.520 are still blessed to have work to do, to be 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:30.640 able to do that work in the best way that 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:34.200 we can, but understanding that we're under new circumstances, so 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.279 we need to provide ourselves with the space and the 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:42.520 flexibility and the compassion to just be because being right 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.720 now in this present state is really trying in and 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.839 of itself. So I appreciate you so much offering some 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.279 reflection on how you are moving through. I think that 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.920 one of the things that makes me really excited about 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:59.480 PM mood and doing this particular podcast is the idea 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.440 of offering people just something else, right, but like not 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.280 denying the current moment and climate of where we are 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.840 in anxiety that people are holding, so expressing that but 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.760 also giving them an opportunity to see and do something else, 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.400 just for a little bit that we all need to do. 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:21.720 So I deeply appreciate that, and hear you your new book, 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:24.520 I Don't want to Die Poor, might as well be 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:29.320 an epitaph that I will have on my headstone and 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:33.480 hopefully I will have made it and I will not 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.720 and I will not have died poor. Talk to me 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.280 about the title and the premise of this book, because 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.760 you know, I think that it is an act of 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.760 courage and also defiance of the norms that we are 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:53.880 not supposed to speak about our economic positions, our status. 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.160 We're only ever supposed to boast about it on Instagram 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.400 and show the shots of vacations and new out fits 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:02.440 and you know and this, that and the other thing. 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:07.560 But most people don't share their vulnerability. So talk to 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.800 me about coming to this place with I don't want 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:16.640 to die poor. Thank you. That was really kind, you know. 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.760 I write about how candidate Jesus, how you know there 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.880 is a beauty and a freedom and deviating from what 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.720 you would condition to believe about whatever it is your 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.800 identity is and forging it on your own. But the 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.439 reality in life is freedom is expensive. Life is expensive. 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:36.480 Choice is expensive. We're not all born into this world. 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.720 We're all born free, but not that free. That really 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.120 does depend on how much access and privilege that you 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.559 are born into and with um. For me, I wanted 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.160 to just really be honest, thank you. What really? If 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.160 I can curse? I hate them fucking narratives about millennials 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:54.280 that were destroying the economy because the avocado toast or 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:59.320 ye have paid off their loans like ninety six thousand 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.080 dollars and eighteen months because all they ate was like 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.800 tune up from like identic can and like get push offs. 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.800 That is ridiculous. Like everyone is obsessed with wealth and 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.680 presenting a certain way in this country, Yet people don't 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:14.520 really have any damn money. When you look at the 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.640 median income and you look at certain things, and while 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.760 I am very grateful that you know, I make more 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.520 than the median income, I technically, on paper make a 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.880 good living. But when you're black and you're born with 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.840 like basically with no money, you go to college because 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:30.920 for a lot of us, that is our actually we're 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.920 told to have social mobility by means of higher education. 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.320 A lot of black people go, and they only can 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.319 really go to more times they're not black schools, and 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:41.360 if they go to majority schools, they're still not giving 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.120 sometimes the same amount of resources. Then they get saddled 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.040 with all this debt. Then they graduated the fact that 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.360 like white people who have no college degrees can still 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:51.600 get a job easier than they can. But even if 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:53.800 they get the job, chances are, if you're an American, 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.760 you're probably being grossly underpaid for your labor unless you're 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:02.199 the person responsible for that exploit. So you have all 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:03.800 this debt. In my case and I have a privacy. 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:05.120 The loon like. The thing is, you could have it 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.920 on your tombstone if I got right now. My mom 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:09.920 is still going to hook for that debt because of 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.679 a two thousand and three bankruptcy build passed through by 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.959 George W. Bush that Joe Biden had to roll in 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.600 and you must atoned. But that's my reality and so 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:19.839 for some pod it just to pick it back a 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.040 little about the other question. One thing I've stressed online 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:23.920 is if you don't have to work. First of all, yes, 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.160 if you can work right now, work from home, you 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.200 are more fortunate than you can imagine, and especially if 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:31.200 you are black, because very very complackt with can work 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.840 from home. So take that in and be grateful for that. However, 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.199 don't work yourself to death because these people will kill 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.280 you and they don't care. Look at all these people 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.240 they have laid off. So many people in my life 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.280 have rerouted their lives or so many things have happened, 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.200 and they just let them go like it was nothing. 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.840 And then some companies have been better than others, but 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.080 for the most part, we punished the work or we 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:52.920 don't pay people. It's been like what forty years now 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.440 since I was born in the nineteen eighties. Between Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Bush, 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.800 all of them, we've been running to the ground and 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.960 I just really Instagram, but I just really wanted to 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.319 lend voice to something different, Like I don't really see 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.920 a lot of black working class perspectives in media. The 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.880 reality is most people who can afford to the sacrifices 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.920 to be in media entertainment are middle class. To be 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:14.679 a middle class in this country is to be a luxury. 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:16.440 I fink I gonna really believe in middle class, but 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:18.280 you know what I mean, working class with like a 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:22.040 little bit more income coming in. So you know, even me, 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.560 I took out free internships, but that's only because my 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.520 mom took out extra work to help me, and I 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:28.280 was still having to do other stuff to like any money, 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:29.480 you know what I mean. Like it's just so much 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.679 social ability is so much harder than people make it seem, 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.520 and I really just wanted to offer, Like, look, I 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:39.480 work really hard, but I punished myself in so many ways, 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:42.120 not just to taste a dream, but to stay a 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.839 float and not to let my decisions bring down my mother. 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.280 We're supposed to be better than the next generation, yes, 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.040 but like I've carried the burden with me. I've not 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.320 wanting default on my loan because well, I don't come 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:54.200 from a lot of money. My mom is the only person, 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:55.880 because of her good credit, who would broadly be able 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.120 to help somebody because she was able to go to school. 0:11:58.280 --> 0:11:59.839 Who would I be to, Like, I'm supposed to be 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:01.640 doing better than her, and I could be when that 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:03.680 brings her down, You know what I mean, Like it's 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:05.840 a lot of pressure. Well, the book is about debt, 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:07.800 but I'm really writing about the emotional debt that I 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.400 carry with me, the way so many of us carry. 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.360 And yeah, thank you. Very passive about the topic though 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:18.319 I love what you just said, the phrase that freedom 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:24.760 is expensive. Freedom is expensive, and I couldn't agree more. 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:27.600 I think that what we're learning if we talk about 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.280 the current global pandemic, right, and how it fits into 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:35.160 the narrative that you are exploring around financial debt, emotional debt, 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.240 and just the burden of trying to be right, of 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:42.280 trying to be better. This is the first generation, right 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.360 Millennials zillennials that will follow behind them are the first 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.160 generation that may in fact not do better off than 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:53.240 their parents. Right. Part of the American dream that some 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.520 of us have been fed is this idea that you're 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:00.520 always working one step up, you're working one way up 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.040 in the wrong. And for those people whose parents are 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:08.960 middle class or you know, a little bit above working class, 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:13.280 whatever those distinctions mean, you are set up in a 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:17.000 better way right than your parents parents were. But what 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.280 I have come to understand, just in you know, the 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.600 paying of my own student loan debts, the fact that 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:28.840 I have multiple degrees and advanced degrees, the fact that 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.520 my mother also has multiple degrees advanced degrees, and my 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.840 sister does as well, that we have been able to 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.679 do incrementally better, you know, than my grandparents who came 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.960 to this country from Jamaica some you know, forty plus 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.280 years ago, because of education, because of the opportunities that 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.960 were afforded and the ability to take small advantages like, 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:56.160 for instance, a free internship. Right. I remember being in 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.680 college and looking at everybody who was going to work 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.360 on Capitol Hill because I was a political science major 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.480 who was going to do these things. And I'm thinking 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.400 to myself, I'm fortunate and I can do this because 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.520 my parents are like, oh, we have the money to 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.000 be able to supplement you doing some shit for free, 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:17.440 but a majority of people and people a color don't 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:22.040 have that opportunity. And you just see how it's snowballs. 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:25.080 And I think that that's what's really terrifying, is that 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:27.800 you're told, just in the same way that I was told, 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.760 go get an education, and the more education you have, 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.560 the better off you'll be. But what it's turned into 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:35.960 is that the more education you have, the more debt 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.560 you attain. Right. And you know, for me, I'm the 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.440 child my mom helped desegregate her high school and she 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.560 got HYELVI in first and then went back to school 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:45.480 because we didn't have money, Like you know, I really 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:47.480 I come from. And I say this will probably like 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.520 po folk, but people who work really really hard, but 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:51.960 having given like the structure of even the help like 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.480 her even being able to go to school to go 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.520 back and be able to make more money, the cost 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.320 situation now compared to what it was then might have 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.640 kept her away, which means I might not even have 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.360 the opportunity. Well, and I say, I says, like, I 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.760 don't even come from people who can conceive a free internship. 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.320 I could not even conceive that. But what I had 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.840 to realize is that that is the reality. Like I've 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.360 already made a risk in trying to pursue something like this, 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:18.440 But if I'm going to be doing like, maybe make 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.600 it as much of a strategic risks as possible. And 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.200 I know it has a lot to do with that. 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.960 But y'all will say, of all the internships that I did, 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.960 and I'm very grateful to all of them, see Span, Blender, Magazine, 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.400 Rest in Peace, MTV radio, warn all these places, because 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:33.600 the place that I actually learned the most from was 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:35.960 the one program I did that paid me, which I thought, 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:37.800 and gave me housing. Chris Warrock used to have a 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.760 comedy writing program the Comedy Central. I had housing. I 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:43.840 was paid because I worked, and I worked on all 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.320 those internships harder than I did on jobs who are 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.840 actually with video paid. But the one place I was 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.640 actually paid to be there taught me so much more 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.840 than anything else. More other than not, I was just 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.760 kind of doing grunt work and they were exploiting my labor. 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.480 And I don't begrudge anybody a part of it, because 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.360 you know, system as a system, but I'm glad we're 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.240 now in recent years. I applaud those interns that were 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:07.720 just like just fuck that and breaking down those things 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:09.840 because people need to be paid for their work. The 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.400 fact that and even with publishing like my book deal, 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.680 I can't think Jesus was not. I'm glad it's done well. 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:17.600 I'm really glad to do well. But I didn't get 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.760 much money from that. I've made more money from speaking 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.720 and frankly royalties, and I say this with most officers 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.800 don't earn royalty. But the reason why I got a 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.480 lower advance and being honest, and I've said it before, 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.720 as I'm black and queer, and people thought that was niche, 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.560 which is a key way of you know, people saying 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.520 they have their limitations about what they think a black writer, 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.600 particularly one like me, can do. They lowered my commercial 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.640 viability despite all songs to the contrary, laid out on 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.560 paper and paid me less. That was a sacrifice. I mean, 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:49.960 it's only wrong. You don't make a lot of money 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.360 off the bat to stuff. But I knew where I was, 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:54.680 and I knew were other writers who's just so happened 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.000 to be white, who are at my level a little 0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:59.280 bit you know, lower in terms of visibility, still got 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.320 more money than me because the presumption is they still 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.240 have more than we. I could have graduated debt free, 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.160 but I'm still gonna be black, and I'm still gonna 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.680 have to deal with certain stuff like this, and so 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.720 it's always some of the barrier. If it's not an internship, 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.359 it's something else, like it shouldn't be this way for 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:19.199 any of us. And that's just kind of like the 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.360 online thing that I hope it's from the book from 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.040 insurance to that you know this stuff, it shouldn't be 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.440 this way. When people talk so much about why we 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.080 don't have these perspectives, it's not just even read it. 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.639 It's also just like class, because I also think just 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.119 in terms of like class, I would still like to 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.159 see far more perspectives. It's all very frustrating. It is 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:40.280 really frustrating, and I you know, I've been wondering, and 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.600 I'll ask you this question. We have no idea. Obviously, 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.439 we're literally in the midst of a global pandemic, right 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:48.479 so we don't know how this ends. We don't know 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.960 when it ends. But one of the things that I 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:56.040 have been thinking about is how the younger generations right 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.440 who are the young kids right now in elementary school, 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.560 in high schoo goal what they're going to grow up 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:06.480 to become, because now they are living in a world 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.400 that is incredibly uncertain. So while those of us went 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.159 to go pursue our passions right, whether that be in media, 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.800 whether it is to write a best seller like you have, 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:23.680 whether it's to start your own business, what the coronavirus 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.119 has done is showed us exactly who is essential and 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:31.520 who is not exactly just how a majority of us 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.760 are one paycheck away or one job loss away from 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:41.119 losing everything. That's not security, right, and so understanding that 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.760 we are all a lot much more vulnerable than I 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.280 think that our imaginations allowed us to really wrap our 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:52.919 minds around that most people couldn't go panic shopping and 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.159 hold a bunch of supplies because you don't have that 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.439 much money extra right to be able to go and 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.359 do that. I wonder what these young people will grow 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.640 up to be. I wonder if this pandemic will create 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:12.399 generations of risk takers. Are those that decide to cling 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.280 to safety and stability because they know what it's like. 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.639 They will have had the memories of their family members, 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.520 their parents, their caregivers losing everything in the blink of 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:24.640 an eye. What do you think, do you? I mean, 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.040 you know, and again we have no idea. So it's 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.600 just you know, throwing out there a thought of World 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.760 War one, World War two, how it created generations of 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.520 people that had a certain perspective of the world and 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:40.720 how to maneuver and how to make moves or what 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.680 moves not to make. And I'm kind of wondering what 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:48.719 this pandemic will do for younger generations of folks. Well, 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:52.760 I'm thirty five and this is the second great financial 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:58.160 crisis of my adulthood. So I still can't particularly call 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.520 how it looks with us. I mean, it's hard to predict, 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.480 but I would just say they already are mirroring our 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:06.480 generation in a lot of ways. It's like we're trying 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:08.639 to figure it out and adapting. I think they are too, 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:10.560 but I don't know, like because because to me, I'm 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:12.280 wrestling with the fact that, as a lot of my 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.280 friends are right now, it's like, for the first times 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.400 in our lives, we finally feel like we were having 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:21.959 some semblance of security, and a lot of the ways 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.080 what's been happening in stability has stunted not all, but 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.720 a lot of our development of personal growth because we 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.360