1 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to PM mood, the no Talking Points, no Bullshit 2 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: podcast that takes you behind the curtain, off the red carpet, 3 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: and to the front lines of progress with change makers 4 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: and innovators that are doing the work to shift our 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: culture and expand our social impact. Folks, I am so 6 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: excited to welcome to PM mood The New York Times. 7 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: A best selling author of I Can't Date, Jesus, Love, Sex, family, race, 8 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: and other Reasons, I've put my faith in Beyonce and 9 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: the author of the new book I Don't Want to Die. 10 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: Poor Michael Arsenau, Thank you so much for joining PM mood. 11 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: How are you doing? Thank you for having me. I 12 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: am as well as can be an a pandemic in 13 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: which we're all fearing for our laws. I'm grateful, yes, 14 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: and I am grateful to have you on. It's wild 15 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: because when I started PM mood, the idea was not 16 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: to talk about current events and to explore different avenues 17 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: of folks like yourself, who are super talented and offer 18 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: so much to explore different things. But we just we 19 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: can't seem to escape the world that we are currently 20 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: living in. So before we jump into your latest book, 21 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: which in all honesty. The conversations around being in debt, 22 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: going through variations and varied levels of brokeness is something 23 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: that now more people than ever are probably sharing. In 24 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: this time where ten million people have now applied for 25 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: unemployment due to the coronavirus. That number is only going 26 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: to continue to go up. So many people are losing 27 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: their livelihoods, their jobs, and so a public health crisis 28 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: has turned into an economic crisis of epic proportions as well. 29 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: So how are you navigating this moment as an author, 30 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: as a content creator? How are you navigating this? Well? 31 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: For me, like, I have a book coming out and 32 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: I have to function, So am I worried about my health? Obviously? 33 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: I'm in New York, which is not the best place 34 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: to be. The only other option I really have to 35 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: go back to Texas, Artifa, Houston, which is not a 36 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: good place to be, particularly even being around my parents. 37 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: So I haven't following the news. I'm a news junkie, obviously, 38 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: I mean obviously, but I'm a news junkie. So I've 39 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: been quietly paying attention to this entire time, and then, 40 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: just in my dumb luck, I've recently been to I've 41 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: been in New York. I've been to New Orleans, and 42 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: I've been to La all within March, and within like 43 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: the two weeks where everything basically shut down. I actually 44 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: got to New York right before shut down. Here I 45 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: am as then as can be. But that is because 46 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, while I'm not used to 47 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: the doomsday plot aspect of this, including the racist game 48 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 1: show host kind of leading us to ruin, I do 49 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: know what it's like to be constrained. I know it 50 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: for one reason or another. I know it's like not 51 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: to have a lot of financial options and hardship. So 52 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: I'm familiar with a lot of what people are experiencing 53 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: right now, but I knew for me, like I feel 54 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: very strange asking people to buy my book. I didn't 55 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: invent capitalism, but I don't want to be squallowed whole 56 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: by it either. But I really do believe in my 57 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: book and the messaging of it, and so I to 58 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: be I mean, not to be honest. It's always challenging 59 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: being black and queer and frankly not centering white people 60 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: in your work, and me making sure my narrative is 61 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: not consumed in a way I think sometimes otherness is, 62 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's hard for me in general just 63 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: to get into certain spaces. So it was already challenging 64 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: that the coronavirus, this has been even harder to kind 65 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: of get my message out there and try to tell 66 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: people about the book. So I kind of just turned 67 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: to myself. I'm going on Instagram. You know, I appreciate 68 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: people that say you're like naturally good with this. I really, 69 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I would love to be doing more of it, 70 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: but frankly, I don't always like doing it. Like I 71 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: wake up every morning. You know, I thought I was 72 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: handling it really well, and then you know, the third week, 73 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: I've wiping up at like one o'clock and one thirty 74 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: in the morning. I can't go back to sleep. I 75 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: go to sleep at seven o'clock. I'm honestly, I hope. 76 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: I'm rambled. I'm doing the best that I can, and 77 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: I have a schedule. I already maintained a schedule because 78 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: I worked primarily from home. I've been more stringent about 79 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: the schedule. But one thing that I allowed myself to do, 80 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: which is what I didn't used to do before when 81 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: I was really really struggling, I will say that I'm 82 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: scared about what's coming. Yeah, but I'm in a much 83 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: better space than I was yesterday and the year before, 84 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: because last year, when I was writing this book was 85 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: back to a nightmare for me. It reminded me of 86 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: the fragility of all of our situations. That aside, I 87 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: stick to a schedule, But what I really do is 88 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: that I allowed myself to bend from the schedule when 89 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: mentally I'm not there. I try to be there for 90 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: my friends, for who for them this is a new 91 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: reality something my friends have been laid off. They don't 92 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: have a freelance. They work about assurance. I try to 93 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: be present for them, but I also pull away when 94 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: I can't do it because I have to function. Like 95 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: when I have to function, I have to talk to you. 96 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: I have to be clear headed. I have to promote 97 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: my book in this message I really believe in it. 98 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: I have to go online, I have to talk to people. 99 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: I got to check on my family, got to please 100 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: with my mom and everybody else, to stay home. I 101 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: have to do all these things like everybody else, and 102 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: still kind of promote. So I try to be disciplined 103 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: about it. But if I'm like you know what, I 104 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: don't have it in me. Right now, I disconnect and 105 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: I do whatever I need to do to calm down 106 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: that moment and give myself space. Hopefully that makes sense. 107 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm really big about giving space. It makes 108 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: a ton of sense. I think that. You know, there 109 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: have been so many memes and challenges to try and 110 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: uplift people's spirits, and you know, but in a way 111 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: they also create a lot of pressure, right because there 112 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: is this assumption that we all have all of this 113 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: extra time on our hands and should be focusing on 114 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: being as productive as possible and churning out content if 115 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,239 Speaker 1: that's what you do on a regular basis, And much 116 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: like you, I find myself waking up zapped of any passion, 117 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: of any drive, of any focus, And on those days, 118 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: I just have to be gentle with myself because you're 119 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: not supposed to be creative and upbeat in the midst 120 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: of a global pandemic. And I think that we will 121 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: all struggle through these different waves of this new normal 122 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: and how to deal with ourselves and those that we 123 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: love and care about, and for those of us that 124 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: are still blessed to have work to do, to be 125 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: able to do that work in the best way that 126 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: we can, but understanding that we're under new circumstances, so 127 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: we need to provide ourselves with the space and the 128 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: flexibility and the compassion to just be because being right 129 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: now in this present state is really trying in and 130 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: of itself. So I appreciate you so much offering some 131 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: reflection on how you are moving through. I think that 132 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: one of the things that makes me really excited about 133 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: PM mood and doing this particular podcast is the idea 134 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: of offering people just something else, right, but like not 135 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: denying the current moment and climate of where we are 136 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: in anxiety that people are holding, so expressing that but 137 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: also giving them an opportunity to see and do something else, 138 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: just for a little bit that we all need to do. 139 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: So I deeply appreciate that, and hear you your new book, 140 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: I Don't want to Die Poor, might as well be 141 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: an epitaph that I will have on my headstone and 142 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: hopefully I will have made it and I will not 143 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: and I will not have died poor. Talk to me 144 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: about the title and the premise of this book, because 145 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, I think that it is an act of 146 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: courage and also defiance of the norms that we are 147 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: not supposed to speak about our economic positions, our status. 148 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: We're only ever supposed to boast about it on Instagram 149 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: and show the shots of vacations and new out fits 150 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: and you know and this, that and the other thing. 151 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: But most people don't share their vulnerability. So talk to 152 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: me about coming to this place with I don't want 153 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: to die poor. Thank you. That was really kind, you know. 154 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: I write about how candidate Jesus, how you know there 155 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: is a beauty and a freedom and deviating from what 156 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: you would condition to believe about whatever it is your 157 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: identity is and forging it on your own. But the 158 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: reality in life is freedom is expensive. Life is expensive. 159 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: Choice is expensive. We're not all born into this world. 160 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: We're all born free, but not that free. That really 161 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: does depend on how much access and privilege that you 162 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: are born into and with um. For me, I wanted 163 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: to just really be honest, thank you. What really? If 164 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: I can curse? I hate them fucking narratives about millennials 165 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: that were destroying the economy because the avocado toast or 166 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: ye have paid off their loans like ninety six thousand 167 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: dollars and eighteen months because all they ate was like 168 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: tune up from like identic can and like get push offs. 169 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: That is ridiculous. Like everyone is obsessed with wealth and 170 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: presenting a certain way in this country, Yet people don't 171 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: really have any damn money. When you look at the 172 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: median income and you look at certain things, and while 173 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: I am very grateful that you know, I make more 174 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: than the median income, I technically, on paper make a 175 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: good living. But when you're black and you're born with 176 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: like basically with no money, you go to college because 177 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: for a lot of us, that is our actually we're 178 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: told to have social mobility by means of higher education. 179 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: A lot of black people go, and they only can 180 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: really go to more times they're not black schools, and 181 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: if they go to majority schools, they're still not giving 182 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: sometimes the same amount of resources. Then they get saddled 183 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: with all this debt. Then they graduated the fact that 184 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: like white people who have no college degrees can still 185 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: get a job easier than they can. But even if 186 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: they get the job, chances are, if you're an American, 187 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: you're probably being grossly underpaid for your labor unless you're 188 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: the person responsible for that exploit. So you have all 189 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: this debt. In my case and I have a privacy. 190 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: The loon like. The thing is, you could have it 191 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: on your tombstone if I got right now. My mom 192 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: is still going to hook for that debt because of 193 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: a two thousand and three bankruptcy build passed through by 194 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: George W. Bush that Joe Biden had to roll in 195 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: and you must atoned. But that's my reality and so 196 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 1: for some pod it just to pick it back a 197 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: little about the other question. One thing I've stressed online 198 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: is if you don't have to work. First of all, yes, 199 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: if you can work right now, work from home, you 200 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: are more fortunate than you can imagine, and especially if 201 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: you are black, because very very complackt with can work 202 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: from home. So take that in and be grateful for that. However, 203 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 1: don't work yourself to death because these people will kill 204 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: you and they don't care. Look at all these people 205 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: they have laid off. So many people in my life 206 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: have rerouted their lives or so many things have happened, 207 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: and they just let them go like it was nothing. 208 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: And then some companies have been better than others, but 209 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: for the most part, we punished the work or we 210 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: don't pay people. It's been like what forty years now 211 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: since I was born in the nineteen eighties. Between Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Bush, 212 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: all of them, we've been running to the ground and 213 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: I just really Instagram, but I just really wanted to 214 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: lend voice to something different, Like I don't really see 215 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: a lot of black working class perspectives in media. The 216 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: reality is most people who can afford to the sacrifices 217 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: to be in media entertainment are middle class. To be 218 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: a middle class in this country is to be a luxury. 219 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: I fink I gonna really believe in middle class, but 220 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, working class with like a 221 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: little bit more income coming in. So you know, even me, 222 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: I took out free internships, but that's only because my 223 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: mom took out extra work to help me, and I 224 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: was still having to do other stuff to like any money, 225 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like it's just so much 226 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: social ability is so much harder than people make it seem, 227 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: and I really just wanted to offer, Like, look, I 228 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: work really hard, but I punished myself in so many ways, 229 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: not just to taste a dream, but to stay a 230 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: float and not to let my decisions bring down my mother. 231 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: We're supposed to be better than the next generation, yes, 232 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: but like I've carried the burden with me. I've not 233 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: wanting default on my loan because well, I don't come 234 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: from a lot of money. My mom is the only person, 235 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: because of her good credit, who would broadly be able 236 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: to help somebody because she was able to go to school. 237 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 1: Who would I be to, Like, I'm supposed to be 238 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: doing better than her, and I could be when that 239 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: brings her down, You know what I mean, Like it's 240 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure. Well, the book is about debt, 241 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: but I'm really writing about the emotional debt that I 242 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: carry with me, the way so many of us carry. 243 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: And yeah, thank you. Very passive about the topic though 244 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: I love what you just said, the phrase that freedom 245 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: is expensive. Freedom is expensive, and I couldn't agree more. 246 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: I think that what we're learning if we talk about 247 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: the current global pandemic, right, and how it fits into 248 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: the narrative that you are exploring around financial debt, emotional debt, 249 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: and just the burden of trying to be right, of 250 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: trying to be better. This is the first generation, right 251 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: Millennials zillennials that will follow behind them are the first 252 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: generation that may in fact not do better off than 253 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: their parents. Right. Part of the American dream that some 254 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: of us have been fed is this idea that you're 255 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: always working one step up, you're working one way up 256 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: in the wrong. And for those people whose parents are 257 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: middle class or you know, a little bit above working class, 258 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: whatever those distinctions mean, you are set up in a 259 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: better way right than your parents parents were. But what 260 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: I have come to understand, just in you know, the 261 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: paying of my own student loan debts, the fact that 262 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: I have multiple degrees and advanced degrees, the fact that 263 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: my mother also has multiple degrees advanced degrees, and my 264 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: sister does as well, that we have been able to 265 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: do incrementally better, you know, than my grandparents who came 266 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: to this country from Jamaica some you know, forty plus 267 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: years ago, because of education, because of the opportunities that 268 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: were afforded and the ability to take small advantages like, 269 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: for instance, a free internship. Right. I remember being in 270 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: college and looking at everybody who was going to work 271 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill because I was a political science major 272 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: who was going to do these things. And I'm thinking 273 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: to myself, I'm fortunate and I can do this because 274 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: my parents are like, oh, we have the money to 275 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: be able to supplement you doing some shit for free, 276 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: but a majority of people and people a color don't 277 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: have that opportunity. And you just see how it's snowballs. 278 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: And I think that that's what's really terrifying, is that 279 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: you're told, just in the same way that I was told, 280 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: go get an education, and the more education you have, 281 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: the better off you'll be. But what it's turned into 282 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: is that the more education you have, the more debt 283 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: you attain. Right. And you know, for me, I'm the 284 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: child my mom helped desegregate her high school and she 285 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: got HYELVI in first and then went back to school 286 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: because we didn't have money, Like you know, I really 287 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: I come from. And I say this will probably like 288 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: po folk, but people who work really really hard, but 289 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: having given like the structure of even the help like 290 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: her even being able to go to school to go 291 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: back and be able to make more money, the cost 292 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: situation now compared to what it was then might have 293 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: kept her away, which means I might not even have 294 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: the opportunity. Well, and I say, I says, like, I 295 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: don't even come from people who can conceive a free internship. 296 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: I could not even conceive that. But what I had 297 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: to realize is that that is the reality. Like I've 298 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: already made a risk in trying to pursue something like this, 299 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: But if I'm going to be doing like, maybe make 300 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: it as much of a strategic risks as possible. And 301 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: I know it has a lot to do with that. 302 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: But y'all will say, of all the internships that I did, 303 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: and I'm very grateful to all of them, see Span, Blender, Magazine, 304 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: Rest in Peace, MTV radio, warn all these places, because 305 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: the place that I actually learned the most from was 306 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: the one program I did that paid me, which I thought, 307 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: and gave me housing. Chris Warrock used to have a 308 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: comedy writing program the Comedy Central. I had housing. I 309 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: was paid because I worked, and I worked on all 310 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: those internships harder than I did on jobs who are 311 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: actually with video paid. But the one place I was 312 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: actually paid to be there taught me so much more 313 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: than anything else. More other than not, I was just 314 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: kind of doing grunt work and they were exploiting my labor. 315 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: And I don't begrudge anybody a part of it, because 316 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: you know, system as a system, but I'm glad we're 317 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: now in recent years. I applaud those interns that were 318 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: just like just fuck that and breaking down those things 319 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: because people need to be paid for their work. The 320 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: fact that and even with publishing like my book deal, 321 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: I can't think Jesus was not. I'm glad it's done well. 322 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: I'm really glad to do well. But I didn't get 323 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: much money from that. I've made more money from speaking 324 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: and frankly royalties, and I say this with most officers 325 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: don't earn royalty. But the reason why I got a 326 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: lower advance and being honest, and I've said it before, 327 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: as I'm black and queer, and people thought that was niche, 328 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: which is a key way of you know, people saying 329 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: they have their limitations about what they think a black writer, 330 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: particularly one like me, can do. They lowered my commercial 331 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: viability despite all songs to the contrary, laid out on 332 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: paper and paid me less. That was a sacrifice. I mean, 333 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: it's only wrong. You don't make a lot of money 334 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: off the bat to stuff. But I knew where I was, 335 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: and I knew were other writers who's just so happened 336 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: to be white, who are at my level a little 337 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: bit you know, lower in terms of visibility, still got 338 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: more money than me because the presumption is they still 339 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: have more than we. I could have graduated debt free, 340 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: but I'm still gonna be black, and I'm still gonna 341 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: have to deal with certain stuff like this, and so 342 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: it's always some of the barrier. If it's not an internship, 343 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: it's something else, like it shouldn't be this way for 344 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 1: any of us. And that's just kind of like the 345 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: online thing that I hope it's from the book from 346 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: insurance to that you know this stuff, it shouldn't be 347 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: this way. When people talk so much about why we 348 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: don't have these perspectives, it's not just even read it. 349 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: It's also just like class, because I also think just 350 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: in terms of like class, I would still like to 351 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: see far more perspectives. It's all very frustrating. It is 352 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: really frustrating, and I you know, I've been wondering, and 353 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: I'll ask you this question. We have no idea. Obviously, 354 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: we're literally in the midst of a global pandemic, right 355 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 1: so we don't know how this ends. We don't know 356 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: when it ends. But one of the things that I 357 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: have been thinking about is how the younger generations right 358 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: who are the young kids right now in elementary school, 359 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: in high schoo goal what they're going to grow up 360 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: to become, because now they are living in a world 361 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: that is incredibly uncertain. So while those of us went 362 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: to go pursue our passions right, whether that be in media, 363 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: whether it is to write a best seller like you have, 364 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: whether it's to start your own business, what the coronavirus 365 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: has done is showed us exactly who is essential and 366 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: who is not exactly just how a majority of us 367 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: are one paycheck away or one job loss away from 368 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: losing everything. That's not security, right, and so understanding that 369 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: we are all a lot much more vulnerable than I 370 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: think that our imaginations allowed us to really wrap our 371 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: minds around that most people couldn't go panic shopping and 372 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: hold a bunch of supplies because you don't have that 373 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: much money extra right to be able to go and 374 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: do that. I wonder what these young people will grow 375 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: up to be. I wonder if this pandemic will create 376 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: generations of risk takers. Are those that decide to cling 377 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: to safety and stability because they know what it's like. 378 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: They will have had the memories of their family members, 379 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: their parents, their caregivers losing everything in the blink of 380 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: an eye. What do you think, do you? I mean, 381 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, and again we have no idea. So it's 382 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: just you know, throwing out there a thought of World 383 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: War one, World War two, how it created generations of 384 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: people that had a certain perspective of the world and 385 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: how to maneuver and how to make moves or what 386 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: moves not to make. And I'm kind of wondering what 387 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 1: this pandemic will do for younger generations of folks. Well, 388 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: I'm thirty five and this is the second great financial 389 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: crisis of my adulthood. So I still can't particularly call 390 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: how it looks with us. I mean, it's hard to predict, 391 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: but I would just say they already are mirroring our 392 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: generation in a lot of ways. It's like we're trying 393 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: to figure it out and adapting. I think they are too, 394 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: but I don't know, like because because to me, I'm 395 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: wrestling with the fact that, as a lot of my 396 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: friends are right now, it's like, for the first times 397 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: in our lives, we finally feel like we were having 398 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 1: some semblance of security, and a lot of the ways 399 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: what's been happening in stability has stunted not all, but 400 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: a lot of our development of personal growth because we 401 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: just haven't had the means to live in the way 402 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: we were told that that is what its actual life 403 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: is supposed to look like in a fair society. And 404 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: we're still adjusting. So I'm not sure how they will adjust, 405 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: but I think, honestly, we're all kind of just for me. 406 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: It's just like I fell into freelancing, not because of 407 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: my choice, is because the Great Recession media was imploding, 408 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: as I knew it. If the media still doesn't know 409 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: how to make money. So in a lot of ways 410 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: I've been telling friends before, I'm like, you should really 411 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: pay attention because they still don't know how to make 412 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: money outside of advertising revenue, which is a Google Facebook thing. 413 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: So expect the layoff soon. So even with George Bush, 414 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: I mean Donald Trump, I always say this is like 415 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: the Bush administration, except it's dumber, Boulder somehow, more corrupting racists, 416 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: and it's on adderall with a reality show, so everything 417 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: is spet up. So I knew that he was going 418 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 1: to run the country into the ground and turn into 419 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: the tosh Ma Hall because like the tax cutting, all 420 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: that other ship, well, I didn't expect was like this 421 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: doomsday aspect. So you know, at least for me. I 422 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: get up every morning. I'm doing the best I can. 423 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: I'm trying to make money while I can, trying to 424 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: promote my stuff while I can. I'm only trying to 425 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: do the work that I can do. It like in 426 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: front of me with trying to think about tomorrow, but 427 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: just realizing like I really can't call it because and 428 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: I hate to bring him up, but just with Donald Trump, 429 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: I just don't know what to do with that. Anybody 430 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: know what to do with that? I've been I've been 431 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what to what to do with 432 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: that for three and a half years. And because I know, right, 433 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: because I could easily say, you know, if we had 434 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: like an actual person who with intellectual curiosity, we would 435 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: sit down for a month. They would give people money 436 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: and we would all take a hit, but we would 437 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: readjust But because Batman is so hard to predict, I 438 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: just don't know when it ends. And then I think 439 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: once I have an idea of when, I don't know 440 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: when it ends. So it's hard for me to say anything. 441 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,959 Speaker 1: But I hope anyone is just trying to you know, 442 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: I believe in taking risk, but you really should take 443 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: strategic risks because if I'm being blunt, if I graduated 444 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 1: right now, I would definitely go about writing a much 445 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: different way. But to be fair, I've always been open 446 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: to every type of pustle. I've never just been writing 447 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: coach with criticism and political crementary. I write ad copy. 448 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: I do all types of work. I've been work outside 449 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: of media. I've done every type of job that I 450 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: needed to do to pay my bills and pursue my 451 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: like not just a passion, but to like, I have 452 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: a career and I wanted to keep it going and 453 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: actually be secure. I really felt like I was getting 454 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: to it at this point. But yeah, and then all 455 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,479 Speaker 1: this happened. Yeah, and then show host and then and 456 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: then life happened. Yes, yes, go please so tell me this, Michael. 457 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: One of the chapters in the book that I thought 458 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: was really good, and the title just in and of 459 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: itself kind of brings again to the present moment, which is, 460 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: I love Instagram. It sometimes makes me want to die. Um, 461 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: talk about that, because social media in this moment has 462 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: become more important and a lot more popping than it 463 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: has been, because everybody is home and everybody is social distancing. 464 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: Talk to us about this chapter in particular because I 465 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: know that myself. I love Instagram too, But some days 466 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: I'm just like really really again, like we're doing it 467 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: with the flat timmyt and like everybody having the same face, 468 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: and like you know, the torquing for dollar bills, Like 469 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: this is what we're doing. I have those moments I 470 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: write a book. I worry we're all showing essentially the 471 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: greatest hits of our lives, most of us anyway. Now, 472 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: some people are more off the bat, just very blunt 473 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: about wherever they already in a given moments. Great for them, 474 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: for real, but it's like, I don't think most people 475 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: enter this wanting to show the worst of themselves or 476 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: given false impression about the best of themselves. But the 477 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: reality is that the medium is designed to show the 478 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: best side of ourselves. So we're all showing ourselves our 479 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: best without being honest about our worst. And in many ways, again, 480 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: when most Americans don't have four hundred dollars in that 481 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: favors account and the meeting income is with forty two 482 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: thous something like that, it's low, risch, relatively low. Somebody 483 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: lying when you see all these products and nothing matches. 484 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: And I've noticed of course, during the pandemic, a lot 485 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: of people have tried to keep up their habits. I 486 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: swear it's gonna say about I made it. People who 487 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,479 Speaker 1: were showing, you know, off their bodies. The boys are 488 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: still showing them, but you know, stills trying to get 489 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: the attention that way. People who were talking about like 490 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 1: the events or even like the personal branding stuff. Everybody's 491 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: trying to keep up this certain idea of like how 492 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: they think they should look. If you can, one, get 493 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: off from social media, if it's not doing you any good, 494 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: get off. I highly recommend it. If it's not good 495 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: for you. I have to be on it for work, 496 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: you know, because if I didn't have a book from 497 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: Ure right now, probably wouldn't be online as much. Be honest, 498 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I would I would read a lot, I 499 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: would keep inform I wouldn't really engage so much. I 500 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: think for me, I'm while I want to keep in 501 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: touch with my friends. Also could probably use a little 502 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: choirt right now because the news can be overwhelming. But 503 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: I also realized, like many of us are isolated, so 504 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: we need that connection the people who are you go 505 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: on Instagram, which is what I've put my own words 506 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: into practice. If I see something and I don't think 507 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: it makes me come fool, make me feel away, either 508 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: get off or I meet that person, because you know 509 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: you can't follow everybody feel away. But Instagram is essentially 510 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: just a giant flea market at gossips and has great 511 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,239 Speaker 1: fitness tips and varying levels of adult entertainment and they 512 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: try to sell you diaretic te correct. It's amazing, but 513 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: it's also the worst thing, which is kind of like 514 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: a lot of things in life. Everything should be in doses. 515 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: So I really hope people are doing their best right 516 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: now because I just have to say, like, we're all connected, 517 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: but so many people are so clearly missing what this 518 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: moment is. It's about being less selfish, being lessened to 519 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:13,479 Speaker 1: self passionate, being more honest, and so again, whatever you 520 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: need to do to stay sane, do it because Instagram 521 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: will suck you up. Like I love Instagram too, but like, well, 522 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: while it was hitting me up because I wasn't in 523 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: a good place and what I should have done in 524 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: that moment was get off, and I didn't. So if 525 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: you need to get off, get off. I'll stop preaching out. Yeah, no, 526 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,239 Speaker 1: I think that that's right. I think that there are 527 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: so many or something sound like delaries, but there are 528 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: so many ways in which you know, we do. We 529 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: start to what people refer to as yardstick, right, measure 530 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: yourself up against everybody else and how everyone else is 531 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: doing so in the midst of this pandemic, if I'm 532 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: not getting my six pack abs and writing a bestseller 533 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: right and offering inspirational quotes every day, then like I'm 534 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: a terrible person, right, And I think that the beauty 535 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: of your book, right, But I also think the beauty 536 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: of you and general because I've been following you for 537 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: quite some time. Your Twitter is super prolific, and you're writing, 538 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, whether in books or the articles and the 539 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: columns that you have done are just they allow people 540 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: to feel normal. They allow us, yes, they allow us 541 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: to feel like we are normal and that we're not crazy, 542 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: and that we all have like interesting and fun quirks 543 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: about us and there is more that connects us than 544 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: that drives us apart. And I think that for me, 545 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: that's what I really like about your new book. I 546 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: don't want to die poor because I think that too 547 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: many of us are living with crushing debt, are living 548 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: with so many burdens. But because we have this kind 549 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: of stunting for the Graham type of reality that we're 550 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: also living in. You you come into direct opposition with 551 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: your vulnerabilities and your authenticity when you have to stunt 552 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: and perpetrate in a certain kind of way. And it's 553 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: a weird juxtaposition to be in and to navigate. And 554 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: I think that what your writing does and what you 555 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: do in general, is you make that transition that we 556 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: all have to live through and navigate on a regular day. 557 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: You make it easier to bear. That genuinely means a 558 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: lot for me. Thank you so much. I'm really grateful 559 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: to even have a second book. And I just anyone listening, 560 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: and I really do think it reads through my work. 561 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if you're like nothing like me, the 562 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: general point of I can't make Jesus and I don't 563 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: want to that poor, but particularly I don't want to 564 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: that poor. No matter who you are, no matter you're raised, 565 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: your identity, however, you whatever, you're more likely than not 566 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: if you live in this country or any indidustrial like 567 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: you're not probably getting your fair share. We're all born 568 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 1: into this world conditions to think we need to live 569 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: up to a certain standard, and yet we're not giving 570 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: the tools to even meet that a fair playing field, 571 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: and that affects different people for different reasons. But I 572 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: really do just speak for like folks. I just think 573 00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: we deserve our fair share, and we're so hard on 574 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: ourselves and it's not all our fault. And I had 575 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: to learn to forgive myself for a lot of my choices. 576 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,719 Speaker 1: Like I did it with all the best intentions. It 577 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: wasn't really like ego. It was one of the better 578 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: life for my mother and me wrestling with the fact 579 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: that maybe my good intentions could have kind of sank everybody. 580 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: But I really thank you for what you said about 581 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: my book. It really means a lot. It was healthy 582 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: right because I was going through some of these things 583 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: at a point where I didn't think I would anymore. 584 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: But once again, that speaks the fragility of many of 585 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: our situations, because you could be making a whole lot 586 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: more money, but a missing check is a missing check. 587 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: It just means you ope more after a while. So 588 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: thank you again for giving me space, especially during this nightmare. 589 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: That I hope with us being better, I hope that 590 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: it ends Honestly, you're right with us being better and 591 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: with us having a lot more gratitude and recognizing you 592 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: know that some of us carry a lot of privilege, right, 593 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: and so the idea that we're able to work from home, 594 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: like you said in the beginning, for those of us 595 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: that are able to work from home, for those of 596 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: us that did have money in oursel savings, for those 597 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: of us that have a place to shelter in place 598 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: are all various levels of privilege. And you know, the 599 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: more gratitude and compassion that we can have in this moment, 600 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: I think the better off we will all be. Michael, 601 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: Before I let you go, one of the questions that 602 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: I always end with PM mood is, you know, the 603 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: idea of the show obviously is getting in the mood 604 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: to use your social impact for something better and bigger. 605 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: So how do you get in the mood to change 606 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: the world. It depends usually music or you know, I can't, 607 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: Dad Jesus. It was a lot of queer black boys 608 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: and nice older white ladies and a few black aunties 609 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: who all sent me messages. One way I know that 610 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: to confirm them my words meant something to them and 611 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: help them either be better in their own lives or 612 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: you know, want to be better to quick people in 613 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: their lives. And then some days it's honestly just like 614 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: maybe a Megan thee Stallion kind of Bob parting. I'll 615 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: just I do my morning jig so you read my tweets. 616 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,479 Speaker 1: So my thought about the morning jig is that I 617 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: think the world can before you even eight am. I 618 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: don't think most people wake up wanting to be sad. 619 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: I wake up wanting to experience the best. But life 620 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: can get hits you really hard quickly. But thinking of 621 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: a student loan people person is harassing you on Christmas 622 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,239 Speaker 1: Eve because I write about it in the book. So 623 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: I get up, I turn on my music and I 624 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: bought because I allowed myself to experience from joy before 625 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: the world tries to take it away and usually win. 626 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: In those moments when I try to have like that joy, 627 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: I am grateful and I feel a sense of purposeness, 628 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: and that is what makes me want to go online 629 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: and spread some joy. I always just want to make 630 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: people laugh and make people think, and dancing or sometimes 631 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: people just reminding me of my own purpose reminds me 632 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: to keep a fill in mind. Yeah, because I think 633 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: gratitude can't cure everything, but it can definitely give you 634 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: perspective and help you get through struggle. And that's really 635 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: I hope with my work in this book particularly points 636 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: out thank you again for having me well. Thank you 637 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: Michael for coming on to PM Mood. Thank you for 638 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: the joy, the honesty, the vulnerability and the humor that 639 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: you share with us on a regular basis. Again, folks, 640 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: the book is entitled I Do Not I Don't want 641 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: to die Poor, So go and pick it up. It 642 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: is available in all the places, and if you're not 643 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: following Michael Arseno, you are missing out, and so do 644 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: that now. Michael, thank you so much for all that 645 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: you do and for joining us. Thank you, thank you, 646 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: thanks for listening to this week's PM Mood. My political podcast, 647 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: woke AF Daily is on Patreon for just five dollars 648 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: a month. That's five new hour long shows every week 649 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: for just five dollars a month. Join the conversation now 650 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: at patreon dot com slash woke AF and you can 651 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: continue listening to PM mood every week absolutely free. Now 652 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: more than ever, we see the importance of independent media, 653 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: So thank you for your support and as always, stay 654 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: in a PM mood, to change the world