Speaker 1: Call Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Oh, welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about
Speaker 2: how it's happened here and it continues to happen here.
Speaker 2: Sorry about that, but we're not changing the name of
Speaker 2: the podcast, you know, because we're not anyway. I got
Speaker 2: Jams stout with me, I got Garrison Davis with me.
Speaker 2: Woot woot, huzzah.
Speaker 3: So the past few weeks, myself is as well as
Speaker 3: probably everyone else on this call, has been getting a
Speaker 3: lot of questions from listeners via the various social media
Speaker 3: apps that we damage ourselves by logging into on a
Speaker 3: much more than needed frequent basis. But one question that's
Speaker 3: been kind of on a lot of people's minds and
Speaker 3: something that we've been discussing as like a group, is
Speaker 3: the idea of should you flee the country? Is the
Speaker 3: party over? Do we need to use the time we
Speaker 3: have now to get out? The Trump administration is cracking
Speaker 3: down on a whole bunch of groups of already marginalized people,
Speaker 3: people with fewer resources, immigrants, people who are here for asylum,
Speaker 3: trans people, queer people in general. It's getting pretty scary
Speaker 3: out there, and the thought crosses your mind, maybe there's
Speaker 3: somewhere else that's better. And this has always been a
Speaker 3: tough question for us to kind of think about because
Speaker 3: we don't want to like inspire panic. That's not the
Speaker 3: purpose of what we do here.
Speaker 2: You should try to spread calm when times are bad
Speaker 2: if you can.
Speaker 3: But the situation politically in the country and in many
Speaker 3: parts of the world right now is extremely fraud and
Speaker 3: it does feel closer towards like the bad nightmare scenario
Speaker 3: than kind of I've ever thought it has before. So
Speaker 3: it's so it's a really tough question. Yeah, And I
Speaker 3: think what we're going to be doing this episode is
Speaker 3: just kind of talking about this question and our thoughts
Speaker 3: around you know, various responses to this line of thought,
Speaker 3: and I guess Robert kind of has a baseline like,
Speaker 3: kind of quasi answer that I think we can use
Speaker 3: as a jumping off point.
Speaker 2: You know, if you're someone who is being targeted, you know,
Speaker 2: or in a community of people who are being targeted,
Speaker 2: you know, you're a naturalized citizen, your hair on a
Speaker 2: green card, you're trans, you're any any of the many
Speaker 2: different groups of people that are being targeted right now,
Speaker 2: and you have the opportunity to leave, and you think
Speaker 2: that that's the right thing for you, then you should
Speaker 2: do it. You shouldn't feel bad about it. You know,
Speaker 2: if you've got a job that is in demand in
Speaker 2: other countries and you know the process and can get
Speaker 2: start the process to like get residency somewhere else and
Speaker 2: work somewhere else, and you know, make your life work
Speaker 2: that way, then I don't think you should feel bad
Speaker 2: about doing that. If that's what you decide is the
Speaker 2: right thing for you. That said, it's not, it's just
Speaker 2: simply not going to be a realistic possibility for most people.
Speaker 2: What is more realistic for a lot of people is,
Speaker 2: for example, moving from states where the risk is higher
Speaker 2: to states where maybe the risk is lower. Hard to
Speaker 2: say how long the risk will be lower, you know,
Speaker 2: but I, you know, I certainly that's more achievable for
Speaker 2: a lot of people than getting set up in a
Speaker 2: foreign country, as James will talk about, if your hope
Speaker 2: is just I'm going to try to go somewhere else
Speaker 2: like Europe or whatever as an asylum seeker. As again,
Speaker 2: James will go into more detail on life ain't easy
Speaker 2: for asylum seekers and that's not really Again, it may
Speaker 2: not be nearly as much of an option as you
Speaker 2: think that it is right now. I you know, had
Speaker 2: to go through kind of my own process after the
Speaker 2: election of like, well, am I going to like, you know,
Speaker 2: get my finances in order and move to another country
Speaker 2: and basically try to like pay my way into getting
Speaker 2: a visa somewhere like in Spain, which is an option
Speaker 2: for someone like me. And I came to the conclusion
Speaker 2: that like, nah, you know, if the worst case thing happens,
Speaker 2: I'd rather like die here or whatever. It's just not
Speaker 2: worth it, you know, to try to get out. So
Speaker 2: I'm committing to trying to like hold the line here
Speaker 2: with everybody basically that I love in the world, because
Speaker 2: like what else are you going to do? You know?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I will just say that, you know, I
Speaker 4: probably have met more asylum seekers than most people, you know,
Speaker 4: and it is one of the more miserable fates available
Speaker 4: to a human. It will if large numbers of people
Speaker 4: start leaving the US, only get worse. If you're someone
Speaker 4: who's a US citizen, you have probably not experienced much
Speaker 4: in the way of like strict immigration enforcement. If you
Speaker 4: have traveled around the world, right, you have one of
Speaker 4: the more high value passports in the world. You can
Speaker 4: you can go almost anywhere with a visa or in
Speaker 4: many cases without a visa. Seeking asylum is an extremely
Speaker 4: different process. If you think you're just going to get
Speaker 4: on a flight and leave and stay somewhere, like understand
Speaker 4: that many countries will probably begin to require reciprocal visas
Speaker 4: with the United States soon if we continue our current
Speaker 4: sort of pathway with a more isolationist immigration policy, and
Speaker 4: then you'll have to get that visa, and then you know,
Speaker 4: if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The
Speaker 4: sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be
Speaker 4: something you enjoy again. And that's just if you're able
Speaker 4: to fly somewhere and so you try and overstay a
Speaker 4: visa or you try and apply for asylum. I have
Speaker 4: people I've met in every facet of my life, like
Speaker 4: I know guys who I met as a bike racer
Speaker 4: who have applied for asylum. Guys I met a bike
Speaker 4: racer are staying on that barge in the UK. It
Speaker 4: is a miserable fate. And I think that I'm not
Speaker 4: saying don't do it. I'm saying that you need to
Speaker 4: understand that it is highly unpleasant and it tripped you
Speaker 4: of all dignity, and in some places exists people of
Speaker 4: of like their lives. Right, people die migrating. It's also
Speaker 4: like incredibly expensive to do the things that migrants do
Speaker 4: because that everyone is trying to make a buck off them. Right.
Speaker 4: I was just talking on another podcast about how the
Speaker 4: journey that people took up through the Darien Gap who
Speaker 4: tried to come to the United States, it would have
Speaker 4: cost them way less just to fly, but they couldn't.
Speaker 4: They couldn't get the visas. Right. That doesn't mean like
Speaker 4: if you know, if you have a historical right to
Speaker 4: citizenship through various you know, people have rights to Spanish
Speaker 4: citizenship or German citizenship or Irish. Irish is one that
Speaker 4: many people have access to. You, Yeah, why not? Why not?
Speaker 4: You know, if you have the financial resources, we're not
Speaker 4: try and see where that will go. Why not begin
Speaker 4: pursuing that totally?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Sure, I think becoming a dual citizen if you have
Speaker 3: the capability to, is a fantastic idea that I will
Speaker 3: like never dissuade someone from.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: I would go so far as to say, even if
Speaker 2: you plan to stay here, if you have the ability
Speaker 2: to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now, absolutely, like.
Speaker 4: Is it's something that you should do. It's often not
Speaker 4: hideously expensive, and it's something that might be Yeah, you
Speaker 4: have options, and options are good. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I am very hesitant to like openly call for like
Speaker 3: now is the time to leave the country. I do
Speaker 3: not feel comfortable saying that for a number of reasons,
Speaker 3: like some of them are or more political, as in
Speaker 3: like I don't really subscribe to a politics of escape,
Speaker 3: even the idea of like fleeing states. I feel a
Speaker 3: little bit iffy about.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: There's certainly, you know, a lot of cases where families
Speaker 3: are trying to move, you know, outside states that have
Speaker 3: more restricted access to trans healthcare for minors, towards more
Speaker 3: friendly states, which I totally understand. But I have greatly
Speaker 3: enjoyed getting to know a whole bunch of trans people
Speaker 3: in the South, and a whole bunch of trans people
Speaker 3: here are not willing to leave their home. This is
Speaker 3: their home and it always will be and they're going
Speaker 3: to stay and fight for it even as things get
Speaker 3: you know, harder, And I don't think you should write
Speaker 3: these people off. I don't think you should write these
Speaker 3: places off. These these places are still a terrain of battle,
Speaker 3: and there are going to be places where trans people
Speaker 3: can still live and still live fulfilling lives in many cases.
Speaker 3: And that is that it's worth acknowledging, that's worth putting
Speaker 3: effort into. To the point that, like after the election,
Speaker 3: I was already considering maybe, you know, trying to travel
Speaker 3: around the country some more. And after this last election,
Speaker 3: my line of thought was way more on the side
Speaker 3: of I would actually like to spend as much time
Speaker 3: in Georgia as possible. I would actually want to stay
Speaker 3: in this South for as much as I can, because
Speaker 3: this is like not a place that I think people
Speaker 3: should be walking away from. And in some ways that
Speaker 3: does come from like a slightly privileged point of view
Speaker 3: for multiple reasons, as someone who's white and holds a
Speaker 3: Canadian passport as well as an American passport. That is,
Speaker 3: you know, something that I like to have as a
Speaker 3: back pocket option. But that's something I'm not like considering
Speaker 3: like at all. Like I do not want to move
Speaker 3: to Canada. All my friends are here, my life is here.
Speaker 3: There's certain scenarios where things get much much, much worse,
Speaker 3: even though things are already getting quite bad. But there
Speaker 3: are certain scenarios where yes, that passport will come in handy,
Speaker 3: And that's why I do encourage like, no matter what
Speaker 3: you should you should see if you have any options
Speaker 3: to become a citizen in more than one country. It
Speaker 3: is a great thing to be. It's it's good to
Speaker 3: not be just tied down to one place. But the
Speaker 3: process of trying to to you know, immigrate somewhere where
Speaker 3: you do not have a citizenship is already quite challenging.
Speaker 3: And we will probably discuss some some more of this
Speaker 3: later because I think there's also a sort of like
Speaker 3: onion of a threat of people when you're when you're
Speaker 3: thinking of this question like which people will will be
Speaker 3: or are currently being targeted the most, and how that
Speaker 3: kind of affects the options in terms of like relocation
Speaker 3: to places viewed as like safer havens. And I like
Speaker 3: to jumpstart that onion of protect discussion. After these messages, we're.
Speaker 2: Back and we're talking about onions which you need to
Speaker 2: wear around your neck to protect you from evil spirits. Scarce,
Speaker 2: and that's what you were getting at, right.
Speaker 4: Yes, Uh, that's done. Move on to the next.
Speaker 3: Topic, where five different onions to drive away the various
Speaker 3: secret police forces trying to hunt down individuals. Yes, speaking
Speaker 3: of I guess like the big thing I'm thinking about
Speaker 3: right now, or one of some big things, is there's
Speaker 3: different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals currently in
Speaker 3: the United States. One you have like people who are
Speaker 3: completely undocumented, right. You have people who are currently here
Speaker 3: on like valid asylum claims who are about to get
Speaker 3: those rights like stripped away. I'm trying to think of
Speaker 3: like the list of refugees that were allowed under Biden
Speaker 3: that are now like like imminently going to get their
Speaker 3: stuff stripped away from the Trump administration. I know Venezuelan, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I know, you run. Haitian immigrants are another off god,
Speaker 3: but groups that have that have been able to come
Speaker 3: here the past few years that are going to be
Speaker 3: now seen as like quote unquote illegal by the White
Speaker 3: House and Immigration Customs Enforcement. You then have student visa
Speaker 3: holders which are already like currently under threat getting visas
Speaker 3: taken away. You have people on work visas. You have
Speaker 3: Green card holders, and you even have naturalized citizens and
Speaker 3: among just regular citizens, a naturalists, I guess people that
Speaker 3: were born here. You have other factors that could lead
Speaker 3: to potential hardship. Based on political affiliation or based on
Speaker 3: gender and sexuality, And that's kind of like the bracket
Speaker 3: breakdown I'm working off of. So as much as it's
Speaker 3: like dangerous to be like, you know, like a trans
Speaker 3: anarchist right in the United States, I think that is
Speaker 3: that is fairly different than a Haitian immigrant who's about
Speaker 3: to get like, yeah, literally hunted down by ice, right,
Speaker 3: And these people have wildly different realities, wildly different options
Speaker 3: for how they're going to like handle this question and
Speaker 3: handle like the decision of you know, preemptively choosing to
Speaker 3: relocate somewhere else. James, do you have any kind of
Speaker 3: thoughts on this like onion? I guess yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean I think you described it well, right, Like
Speaker 4: I think a lot of folks are for the first
Speaker 4: time finding themselves in that onion at all, right, and
Speaker 4: certainly with respect to like immigration enforcement or potentially being
Speaker 4: forced to leave this country. And I think it would
Speaker 4: be good maybe to look at folks who have been
Speaker 4: there for a long time and look at how they've done, right,
Speaker 4: because there have been people whose existence was precarious in
Speaker 4: this country for decades. Right, maybe we'd go back to
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety four in Operation Gatekeeper. Maybe we go back
Speaker 4: further whatever, I don't care. Maybe we'd go back to
Speaker 4: the operation whose name is also a slur in the
Speaker 4: nineteen thirties. And I'm not going to say I.
Speaker 3: Mean and indigenous people here, like for all of America,
Speaker 3: it sure have been been people that like exist in
Speaker 3: a wildly different reality than like, yeah, most US citizens, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, where, Yes, this country is predicated on the genocide
Speaker 4: of indigenous people.
Speaker 3: Well, and even in the ways that they're the like
Speaker 3: continue to live here. It's it's like a different world from.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like that genocide is ongoing, Like, it's not it's
Speaker 4: not a thing that stopped. Yeah, it's not a historical thing.
Speaker 4: It's the thing that exists. As long as this country exists.
Speaker 4: I would look to those people, right, Like you said, Garrison,
Speaker 4: Indigenous communities, Indigenous people continue to exist in this country
Speaker 4: despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them.
Speaker 4: Undocumented communities, right, Migrant communities of mixed status have continued
Speaker 4: to exist for a very long time. And like, the
Speaker 4: way that they have got through this is together, and
Speaker 4: that's the way that we will get through this too.
Speaker 4: When there have been threats to migrant communities, migrant communities
Speaker 4: have shown up for each other, right, they're doing that
Speaker 4: right now. You see groups like Del Barrio in San Diego,
Speaker 4: right like going around announcing when there are ice presence
Speaker 4: of ICE officers in the neighborhood. The way that they
Speaker 4: have gone through it is through other people in positions
Speaker 4: of procarity, showing up for one another and taking care
Speaker 4: of one another. And if that is a new position
Speaker 4: for you, if finding yourself like further along the intersectional
Speaker 4: matrix of oppression is new for you, then like it's scary.
Speaker 4: I do understand that that procurity is petrifying, but understand
Speaker 4: that communities and people have been here for a long
Speaker 4: time and look at how they've got through it. And
Speaker 4: in queer communities too to a degree, have been persecuted
Speaker 4: in this country for a very long time and have
Speaker 4: developed ways of not just like existing, but also like
Speaker 4: continuing to center joy and experience joy and not just
Speaker 4: like live in fear, because I think if you live
Speaker 4: in fear, like you've kind of given up to a degree,
Speaker 4: Oh you've let them win. To agree, I should say, like,
Speaker 4: I do understand that being new to this is petrifying
Speaker 4: for people, and like I don't want to just say like, oh,
Speaker 4: you shouldn't be scared, or you know, you should look
Speaker 4: at at how migrant communities have taken care of one another,
Speaker 4: but like now is the time to begin establishing solidarity
Speaker 4: as well. So like those communities which have been precarious
Speaker 4: for some time, they're not closed spaces, right, Like you
Speaker 4: can be in solidarity with them and you can learn
Speaker 4: from them, And I think that now is the time
Speaker 4: to do that. Like, now is the time to build
Speaker 4: stronger links. If you're really worried about things being really
Speaker 4: bad in this country and you have good reason to
Speaker 4: be right, like.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, shit's fucked up and bullshit, yeah it's really
Speaker 2: fucking bad, really bad. Yeah, Like you know, we're sending
Speaker 2: people to labor camps. If you're scared, panicking thinking I
Speaker 2: got to get out of here, I get you. Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, I mean I think the thing that you should
Speaker 3: be doing, regardless of who you are, is you should
Speaker 3: be giving yourself options. H you should be increasing the
Speaker 3: amount of options that you have. And like, that is
Speaker 3: something that is never a bad idea, That is something
Speaker 3: that you could never do too early. It's something that
Speaker 3: you should have already been doing. Frankly, like I've been
Speaker 3: advocating for people to get passports, including an American passport,
Speaker 3: because that doesn't make it easier to leave the country.
Speaker 3: You should be getting that, and it's going to be harder,
Speaker 3: especially if you're trends now, to get a passport that
Speaker 3: matches what you look like, right, But this is still
Speaker 3: something I think is worth doing because it gives you
Speaker 3: an option, and you should be increasing the amount of
Speaker 3: options you have.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, yeah, it's never a bad thing. And
Speaker 4: like that community structure is an option too, Like people
Speaker 4: showing up for you and you showed up for them,
Speaker 4: that is one of your options. Don't forget that. And
Speaker 4: like that will also bring you join You will feel
Speaker 4: safer when you like we were supposed to live in communities,
Speaker 4: and like I you know, I've seen a lot of
Speaker 4: people in very difficult circumstances. And one of the Curtish
Speaker 4: guys once said to me in the in the desert,
Speaker 4: he was like, whatever we do, we do together. And
Speaker 4: I thought that was very profound because they were at
Speaker 4: that time like dancing around a fire in the midst
Speaker 4: of what was like an open air concentration camp. You know,
Speaker 4: but if you can find a community and you can
Speaker 4: find a way to continue to experience joy, then I
Speaker 4: promise that things won't be as bad as they seem
Speaker 4: right now.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 4: Within the Kurdish Shrina movement, there's a phrase that is
Speaker 4: commonly used a slogan. You could say, I guess in
Speaker 4: Kurdish you would say betshwudan Jian means resistance is life.
Speaker 4: And we should remember that for whole groups of people,
Speaker 4: many of whom we've featured here, if they had all
Speaker 4: just left, they would no longer exist in the way
Speaker 4: that they exist now.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Kurdish people have been oppressed by various states for centuries, right, Turkish, Iraqi,
Speaker 4: Iranian and Syrian. They've been subject to genocidal violence, and
Speaker 4: they've still remained there, right, and they've continued to fight
Speaker 4: against that state oppression, and they've created something beautiful today
Speaker 4: as a result that we can see in Raja. But
Speaker 4: the same is true of the Quran and Kareni people
Speaker 4: we've spoken to in right. They decided to remain rather
Speaker 4: than to leave, and in doing so that they created
Speaker 4: a culture that was based on resistance and that resisted
Speaker 4: the ability of the state to exercise a monopoly on
Speaker 4: violence and to determine their outcomes. And I think we
Speaker 4: should look to those examples as we consider, like, what
Speaker 4: does it mean if the state becomes more hostile.
Speaker 3: Here something that like I think I think Robert said
Speaker 3: in our work group chat, which thankfully has not been
Speaker 3: turned into an Atlantic article.
Speaker 2: I did invite Pete Hegseeth, so we'll see if he
Speaker 2: HAPs in. You know, he's rejected us all the good times.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're trying to add the Atlantic editor in
Speaker 4: chief year, he.
Speaker 2: Is not welcome. He's absolutely not welcome.
Speaker 4: That guy just need him to manufacture consent for bombing
Speaker 4: another country in the Middle East on our podcast.
Speaker 2: It's so funny because it is like that is like
Speaker 2: the dream of every journalist that you just get added
Speaker 2: to the entire government's war planning chat and he just
Speaker 2: uses it to d on the Trump admin like you
Speaker 2: get more info unlike anything than he like home's back
Speaker 2: into the head. Yes, it's it's it's fucking hysterical.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they could have had four years and maybe no
Speaker 4: maybe any one off chat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, would they would have They would have accidentally invited
Speaker 2: a different journalist. It was going to happen eventually, but yeah.
Speaker 3: But something Robert said in our chat is that like
Speaker 3: if you already had like plans or the ability to
Speaker 3: move to a different country of your choosing, then yeah,
Speaker 3: why not, right, Like if if if you already were
Speaker 3: thinking about moving to Germany, which is very funny to
Speaker 3: say now, right, but if you already had plans and
Speaker 3: you had the ability to do that, then then sure
Speaker 3: that's something that that you should that that you should
Speaker 3: like consider. If you do not already have pre existing
Speaker 3: plans and means, maybe it's not something to put all
Speaker 3: of your effort into doing right now, because that is
Speaker 3: such a massive undertaking in general, and and not everyone
Speaker 3: has that option, and there's to be people stuck here,
Speaker 3: and you know, part of like my thinking on this
Speaker 3: is is like I'm in a relatively privileged position. I
Speaker 3: would rather use the sort of benefits and the stability
Speaker 3: that I have to help other people that are going
Speaker 3: to be living in this country. So I'm going to
Speaker 3: stay here to do that. And that's part of kind
Speaker 3: of my thought process. On a personal level, do I,
Speaker 3: you know, one day maybe one to live off the continent. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but that's like for personal reasons, not for political reasons.
Speaker 3: That that's because I think Glasgow looks pretty. And if
Speaker 3: you also think Glasgow is pretty and you want to
Speaker 3: move there, then that's fine. But I guess, like the
Speaker 3: politics of escape, I do find a little bit troubling
Speaker 3: in some ways, and I guess I would like to
Speaker 3: talk about that a little bit more after this at break.
Speaker 2: All right, we're back.
Speaker 3: James made a horrible face when I when I complimented Scotland.
Speaker 3: What was up with that?
Speaker 4: When you said glass Goal? Like, so Glasgow not not
Speaker 4: a city that's traditionally like aesthetically prized.
Speaker 3: I guess, uh, okay, well that's that's maybe.
Speaker 2: Okay, Edinburgh is where if I was going to go
Speaker 2: to Scotland I probably am.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to live in the Harry Potter Town.
Speaker 3: Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: It existed?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that is rude, Garrison.
Speaker 2: Don't take that away from Edinburgh. Don't give her that.
Speaker 3: All the coffee shops are like fucking wizard themes. Now,
Speaker 3: absolutely not.
Speaker 2: You haven't been to Edinburgh, don't tell me that ship.
Speaker 3: I've seen your travel pictures, Robert.
Speaker 2: I'm they were mostly hard liquor themed.
Speaker 4: Okay, that's fair, you can Edinburgh is a nice city.
Speaker 4: Glasgow is a nice city. You can joy, you can
Speaker 4: enjoy it, but stopped by Karla on your way down there.
Speaker 4: My family are from.
Speaker 2: My favorite Glasgow fact is that there's a beverage called
Speaker 2: Buckfast that is twenty percent alcohol mineral wine made by
Speaker 2: monks that has as much coffee as a red bull,
Speaker 2: And in Glasgow, Scotland, for a significant period of time,
Speaker 2: roughly one percent of all violent crimes were committed with
Speaker 2: the bottle.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Bucky is it's a whole subculture.
Speaker 2: Buckfast gets you fucked fast, That's right, folks.
Speaker 3: So a term I've used for like the past few
Speaker 3: years to like discuss this, to discuss this question of
Speaker 3: like can you like outrun American fascism is the politics
Speaker 3: of escape. And for a while I really was vocally
Speaker 3: opposed to this sort of politics because it felt like
Speaker 3: the entire world was going through a global far right
Speaker 3: power grap and no matter where you run, you can't
Speaker 3: really get away from it. And now kind of curiously,
Speaker 3: you know, some of this is still happening, right, you
Speaker 3: can look at the AfD in Germany. But some of
Speaker 3: what's happened with this Trump administration has almost weakened a
Speaker 3: degree of like this global far right power grab. Like
Speaker 3: for a long time it looked like the Conservative Party
Speaker 3: of Canada was about to just completely take control over
Speaker 3: the whole over the whole country due to like be
Speaker 3: pent up frustration over Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party. And now
Speaker 3: due to the actions of the Trump administration, the Liberals
Speaker 3: have retaken a significant portion of like popular support and
Speaker 3: are probably gonna do a big sweep in the general election.
Speaker 3: That's going to happen, I'm guessing next month with the
Speaker 3: new Prime Minister like about about to call one, which
Speaker 3: makes sense because he should call one at the at
Speaker 3: the peak of support for the Liberal Party. Yeah, after
Speaker 3: the Conservatives have taken like a twelve to seventeen point
Speaker 3: depth depending which pool you use. So for a while
Speaker 3: I was like, it doesn't even really make sense to
Speaker 3: flee to Canada because Canada is right on the coattails
Speaker 3: of America. Canadian politics are kind of historically but like
Speaker 3: ten years delayed from American politics, and now the new
Speaker 3: drum administration is kind of thrown a curveball in this.
Speaker 3: British politics are always really hard for me to diagnose
Speaker 3: because all of their parties there are pretty wacky in
Speaker 3: my mind. Oh, like, you know, what the Tories have
Speaker 3: been doing has been extremely worrying. Like the NHS, like
Speaker 3: trans stuff is pretty bad. Now that the you know,
Speaker 3: Labor Party is in, it's hard for me to figure
Speaker 3: out kind of where the country is going because this
Speaker 3: Labor Party is a pretty conservative labor party. But like
Speaker 3: this idea of like being able to outrun American fascism
Speaker 3: is still something I find like unconvincing. I guess, like
Speaker 3: you can't fully run away from all of these problems,
Speaker 3: and there may be certain people that it's still like
Speaker 3: makes sense to start making these moves just to start
Speaker 3: planning for that option, right, I am pro options, even
Speaker 3: if this idea of like total escape still find trouble. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and anyone else making a kind of thoughts on this
Speaker 3: on this saw.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like as goes to US, goes the world, right,
Speaker 4: And but that is changing. But like maybe I think
Speaker 4: if it gets to the point where large numbers of
Speaker 4: people are fleeing the US, we might see some of
Speaker 4: that same anti migrant rhetoric that we've seen in the
Speaker 4: US in even relatively liberal Canada, the United Kingdom or
Speaker 4: other anglophone countries. Right, Like, it's already very hard to
Speaker 4: to immigrate to Australia. It's not the easiest to immigrate
Speaker 4: to Canada. Frankly, yeah, I not. I'm not as familiar
Speaker 4: with the Canadian.
Speaker 3: One, especially as like an American. Yeah, unless you have
Speaker 3: like a job that you need to do in Canada
Speaker 3: and you're the only one who can do that job,
Speaker 3: or you get a Canadian girlfriend or that's that makes
Speaker 3: it slightly easier, but still not still not like completely easier.
Speaker 4: Frankly, yeah, that is a I guess that's the alternative. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I think, like I know, like a lot of people
Speaker 4: who listen to this listen to this because they have
Speaker 4: a fairly radical politics, right or left politics, and like.
Speaker 3: Or you're a journalist or you're a federal worker, uh.
Speaker 4: Huh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're looking to steal
Speaker 4: our stories. Fuck off, if I may say so, But like, yeah,
Speaker 4: we've all grown up on the stories of people who
Speaker 4: stood up for what they believed in, right, And Margaret
Speaker 4: makes a whole podcast about it, and Robert does on
Speaker 4: Christmases yep, and like there's a reason why they did that,
Speaker 4: Like you know they I know that the idea of
Speaker 4: running away and being safe could be tempting, But like,
Speaker 4: if this country gets as bad as it needs to
Speaker 4: be for people to run away in large number, it's
Speaker 4: like the world gets markedly less safe. Oh yeah, you're
Speaker 4: going to be running for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2: Just look at how much food the US produces, how
Speaker 2: much medicine. Seventy percent of all of the blood used
Speaker 2: in every single country's medical system around the world is
Speaker 2: exported from the United States. Oh wow, Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 3: And like, particularly for for like US citizens right looking
Speaker 3: looking to flee, the people who are going to be
Speaker 3: able to pull it off are people with pretty pretty
Speaker 3: extraordinary means in most cases. I'm not I'm not, I'm
Speaker 3: not saying all cases, but like if if, if you
Speaker 3: have the capacity to move from from the United States
Speaker 3: to Germany, you're you're probably not living on the poverty line,
Speaker 3: right like that this is this is this, This takes
Speaker 3: a considerable financial investment. So instead, part of what my
Speaker 3: opposition to this is that you're essentially abandoning a whole
Speaker 3: bunch of like the like most at risk people. Yea,
Speaker 3: A part of this even extends out to like moving
Speaker 3: from state to state. I'm obviously in support of free movement.
Speaker 3: I've traveled around, and I'm going to continue to travel around.
Speaker 3: I want to see as much as the country in
Speaker 3: the world as I can. But like another facet of
Speaker 3: this politics of escape is that something I hear very
Speaker 3: consistently from my my friends in Atlanta, And this is
Speaker 3: something I can attest to, like personally, the most amount
Speaker 3: of like like local transphobia from people like on the
Speaker 3: street that they have faced has not been in Atlanta
Speaker 3: where they live. It's been when they're visiting people in
Speaker 3: Seattle or Portland. Like you actually get a lot more
Speaker 3: like weird anti queer harassment in Seattle, just just like
Speaker 3: on like the street level. It's bizarre, Like cities all
Speaker 3: have different kind of like modes of operation. People have
Speaker 3: different like informal like manners in terms of how how
Speaker 3: you like behave on the street. And it's it's it is.
Speaker 3: This is something that I've definitely actually I've definitely experienced.
Speaker 3: There's there's a lot more like open openness towards like
Speaker 3: certain types of of like anti trans harassment in like
Speaker 3: these like liberal safe havens like quote unquote, yeah, I've
Speaker 3: been called slurs on the street way more in Portland,
Speaker 3: Oregon than I have in Atlanta, Georgia. And this is
Speaker 3: this is another like interesting aspect which I'm not saying
Speaker 3: Atlanta is quote unquote safer city than Seattle if you're
Speaker 3: trans I'm not saying the vice versa either, But this
Speaker 3: is like just an aspect of like the politics of escape,
Speaker 3: like especially in the in the United States, like they're there,
Speaker 3: like is really no like real escape, like there there
Speaker 3: is no mythical safe haven where you can live your
Speaker 3: your free life and frolics through the park and never
Speaker 3: have to face any kind of hardship or like political disenfranchisement.
Speaker 3: If you still want to relocate somewhere, that's something that
Speaker 3: you should consider and again create options. But I also
Speaker 3: do not want to like abandon my friends here because
Speaker 3: I just you know, have a more stable job, Like
Speaker 3: I I want to be here for them and and
Speaker 3: help them and not in like a patronizing way, but
Speaker 3: in like a solidarity way. Like that's like really important
Speaker 3: to me. And I think of people who are who
Speaker 3: are thinking about these same things and kind of running
Speaker 3: these same questions of of if they want to commit
Speaker 3: a sting in the United States, I think should also
Speaker 3: make those considerations of is like you know which which
Speaker 3: one of your friends is not going to be able
Speaker 3: to make the same calculation. Yep, And frankly, I feel
Speaker 3: I feel like better as a person and like my
Speaker 3: mental health feels better knowing I'm gonna be here with
Speaker 3: them rather than going to a Berlin nightclub, which does
Speaker 3: sound fun. And I still might on vacation.
Speaker 2: Oh, you definitely need to go to Bergain, Garrett.
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, I have.
Speaker 2: I have planned three days that feel like about four
Speaker 2: hours in Bergaine.
Speaker 3: I am, I am, I'm excited. I am for the
Speaker 3: first time planning to leave the continent this year, which
Speaker 3: is a little bit scary because re entering the United
Speaker 3: States is pretty tricky right now, which should also play
Speaker 3: into your considerations.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, the general safety of air travel at the.
Speaker 3: Moment, safety and air travel now that we don't have
Speaker 3: a gay man running the planes.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, it turns out he was actually all right.
Speaker 3: At bat woke was keeping those planes in the air, you.
Speaker 2: Know, kudos to him. Turns out he was okay at
Speaker 2: bet job.
Speaker 3: But but yes, I don't know what I was saying,
Speaker 3: but I'm sure it was really important and well thought
Speaker 3: through about not abandoning people who maybe don't have the
Speaker 3: same resources that you do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, to your point about like coming back to the US,
Speaker 4: understand that like one of the things that migrants to
Speaker 4: deal with, even if they get to a place and
Speaker 4: they have some degree permanents and they feel safe there,
Speaker 4: is that they will never be able to go back
Speaker 4: to where they're from in most cases, right, that means
Speaker 4: when someone in their family passes away, they can't be
Speaker 4: there for the funeral. That means that when they have
Speaker 4: a grandchild, they have a niece or a nephew, something
Speaker 4: happens in their community and they want to be there
Speaker 4: to help. It's a natural disaster. They are just stuck.
Speaker 4: And that's not something to like to discount as something
Speaker 4: that's not important, Like that is really hard. And if
Speaker 4: you have a community now, especially for trans folks, right,
Speaker 4: Like I just think that, like there are so many
Speaker 4: places where, like you say, Garrison, where bigotry against transfolks
Speaker 4: is being more and more normalized. So like, if you
Speaker 4: have a community where people where you're experiencing every day
Speaker 4: with the people you're around, like leaving that should be
Speaker 4: something that you really think hard about because that can
Speaker 4: be hard to find yeah, yeah, expecting in Edinburgh because
Speaker 4: they're old turfs with the in the cafes.
Speaker 1: That's not too.
Speaker 3: Just to be clear, Yeah, I mean, this is kind
Speaker 3: of the discussion I wanted to have. I'm sure we
Speaker 3: all have more thoughts on this that we will we
Speaker 3: will express very eloquently as soon as we close this
Speaker 3: recording session.
Speaker 4: That's how we do it.
Speaker 3: But but I know, this is this type of stuff
Speaker 3: that we've been thinking about. I know, I know listeners
Speaker 3: have been too. Because you're asking us these questions. It's
Speaker 3: certainly annoying that we don't have a concise yes or
Speaker 3: no answer. But there isn't a concise yes or no answer.
Speaker 3: I think the most concise one I have is that
Speaker 3: you should be giving yourself as many options as you can.
Speaker 3: If that includes applying for Irish citizenship because your grandfather
Speaker 3: is Irish, then hey, why not go for it?
Speaker 2: Right, Ireland's great, nice country. You'll like it.
Speaker 3: But I am I am trepidacious. I guess about about
Speaker 3: you know, public calls to flee the country at this
Speaker 3: point and kind of the underlying politics and ideology of that,
Speaker 3: let alone the kind of the logistical aspects of trying
Speaker 3: to relocate to a different country where you are not
Speaker 3: a citizen, And frankly, I think there will be a
Speaker 3: lot of countries that are not super eager to take
Speaker 3: American immigrants. I think Canada is typically kind of, kind
Speaker 3: of low key been one of these places. Especially if
Speaker 3: we're going to go to war with Canada to make
Speaker 3: it the fifty first state, then it might also uh
Speaker 3: create create some some some tricky aspects.
Speaker 4: You could make it hot.
Speaker 3: But I know if anyone else has any any other thoughts,
Speaker 3: air them now or forever. Be beholdened to angry Reddit comments.
Speaker 4: Yeah, please don't burn each other down on Reddit, like
Speaker 4: now is the time to give people a little grace
Speaker 4: and be kind to other people.
Speaker 2: Don't flee to Belgium. Stay away from Belgium at all costs.
Speaker 4: I had a nice time in Belgium.
Speaker 3: What do you have against Belgium? I have a friend
Speaker 3: in Belgium.
Speaker 2: As an Italian. I think we need to go to
Speaker 2: war with them again. You know, it's what made Caesar great.
Speaker 2: It could make us great again. That's my stance on Belgium.
Speaker 2: It's Italian territory.
Speaker 4: I stand with the Belgian people.
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