WEBVTT - Should You Flee the United States? 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.040 Call Zone Media. 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:08.720 Oh, welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:12.039 how it's happened here and it continues to happen here. 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:15.560 Sorry about that, but we're not changing the name of 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:20.120 the podcast, you know, because we're not anyway. I got 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:22.239 Jams stout with me, I got Garrison Davis with me. 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.280 Woot woot, huzzah. 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.880 So the past few weeks, myself is as well as 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.559 probably everyone else on this call, has been getting a 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:38.040 lot of questions from listeners via the various social media 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.400 apps that we damage ourselves by logging into on a 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:47.200 much more than needed frequent basis. But one question that's 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.239 been kind of on a lot of people's minds and 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:52.839 something that we've been discussing as like a group, is 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:57.160 the idea of should you flee the country? Is the 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.160 party over? Do we need to use the time we 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:05.039 have now to get out? The Trump administration is cracking 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.560 down on a whole bunch of groups of already marginalized people, 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:15.240 people with fewer resources, immigrants, people who are here for asylum, 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:19.679 trans people, queer people in general. It's getting pretty scary 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:25.560 out there, and the thought crosses your mind, maybe there's 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:29.399 somewhere else that's better. And this has always been a 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.200 tough question for us to kind of think about because 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.440 we don't want to like inspire panic. That's not the 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:37.440 purpose of what we do here. 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:40.360 You should try to spread calm when times are bad 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:40.960 if you can. 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:45.800 But the situation politically in the country and in many 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:48.800 parts of the world right now is extremely fraud and 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:53.840 it does feel closer towards like the bad nightmare scenario 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.480 than kind of I've ever thought it has before. So 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:01.280 it's so it's a really tough question. Yeah, And I 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.080 think what we're going to be doing this episode is 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.520 just kind of talking about this question and our thoughts 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.000 around you know, various responses to this line of thought, 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.680 and I guess Robert kind of has a baseline like, 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.760 kind of quasi answer that I think we can use 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:20.200 as a jumping off point. 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.640 You know, if you're someone who is being targeted, you know, 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.160 or in a community of people who are being targeted, 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:31.320 you know, you're a naturalized citizen, your hair on a 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:36.119 green card, you're trans, you're any any of the many 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:39.320 different groups of people that are being targeted right now, 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.679 and you have the opportunity to leave, and you think 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.160 that that's the right thing for you, then you should 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:46.720 do it. You shouldn't feel bad about it. You know, 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.640 if you've got a job that is in demand in 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.080 other countries and you know the process and can get 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.960 start the process to like get residency somewhere else and 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:00.200 work somewhere else, and you know, make your life work 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.400 that way, then I don't think you should feel bad 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.440 about doing that. If that's what you decide is the 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.000 right thing for you. That said, it's not, it's just 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:12.160 simply not going to be a realistic possibility for most people. 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.520 What is more realistic for a lot of people is, 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:18.760 for example, moving from states where the risk is higher 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.200 to states where maybe the risk is lower. Hard to 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:23.320 say how long the risk will be lower, you know, 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.600 but I, you know, I certainly that's more achievable for 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:28.480 a lot of people than getting set up in a 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.720 foreign country, as James will talk about, if your hope 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:33.840 is just I'm going to try to go somewhere else 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.960 like Europe or whatever as an asylum seeker. As again, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.400 James will go into more detail on life ain't easy 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.880 for asylum seekers and that's not really Again, it may 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:44.720 not be nearly as much of an option as you 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.120 think that it is right now. I you know, had 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.560 to go through kind of my own process after the 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.320 election of like, well, am I going to like, you know, 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:56.600 get my finances in order and move to another country 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.600 and basically try to like pay my way into getting 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:02.080 a visa somewhere like in Spain, which is an option 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.080 for someone like me. And I came to the conclusion 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.920 that like, nah, you know, if the worst case thing happens, 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.240 I'd rather like die here or whatever. It's just not 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.120 worth it, you know, to try to get out. So 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:17.440 I'm committing to trying to like hold the line here 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.039 with everybody basically that I love in the world, because 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:21.400 like what else are you going to do? You know? 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.240 Yeah, Like I will just say that, you know, I 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.839 probably have met more asylum seekers than most people, you know, 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.320 and it is one of the more miserable fates available 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.919 to a human. It will if large numbers of people 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.839 start leaving the US, only get worse. If you're someone 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:43.160 who's a US citizen, you have probably not experienced much 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.120 in the way of like strict immigration enforcement. If you 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.000 have traveled around the world, right, you have one of 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.760 the more high value passports in the world. You can 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.560 you can go almost anywhere with a visa or in 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:58.159 many cases without a visa. Seeking asylum is an extremely 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.560 different process. If you think you're just going to get 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:05.600 on a flight and leave and stay somewhere, like understand 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:09.240 that many countries will probably begin to require reciprocal visas 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.400 with the United States soon if we continue our current 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:16.919 sort of pathway with a more isolationist immigration policy, and 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:18.880 then you'll have to get that visa, and then you know, 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:23.000 if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.479 sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:30.560 something you enjoy again. And that's just if you're able 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.080 to fly somewhere and so you try and overstay a 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.719 visa or you try and apply for asylum. I have 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.880 people I've met in every facet of my life, like 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:41.920 I know guys who I met as a bike racer 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.000 who have applied for asylum. Guys I met a bike 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.200 racer are staying on that barge in the UK. It 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:52.200 is a miserable fate. And I think that I'm not 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.080 saying don't do it. I'm saying that you need to 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.080 understand that it is highly unpleasant and it tripped you 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.760 of all dignity, and in some places exists people of 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:05.680 of like their lives. Right, people die migrating. It's also 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.120 like incredibly expensive to do the things that migrants do 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.880 because that everyone is trying to make a buck off them. Right. 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:15.320 I was just talking on another podcast about how the 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.040 journey that people took up through the Darien Gap who 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:19.440 tried to come to the United States, it would have 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:21.400 cost them way less just to fly, but they couldn't. 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.120 They couldn't get the visas. Right. That doesn't mean like 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.520 if you know, if you have a historical right to 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:31.599 citizenship through various you know, people have rights to Spanish 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.880 citizenship or German citizenship or Irish. Irish is one that 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:38.720 many people have access to. You, Yeah, why not? Why not? 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.159 You know, if you have the financial resources, we're not 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:42.839 try and see where that will go. Why not begin 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:44.080 pursuing that totally? 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:44.839 Yeah? 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.919 Sure, I think becoming a dual citizen if you have 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.520 the capability to, is a fantastic idea that I will 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.440 like never dissuade someone from. 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:54.839 No. 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:56.600 I would go so far as to say, even if 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.400 you plan to stay here, if you have the ability 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.840 to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now, absolutely, like. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.039 Is it's something that you should do. It's often not 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:11.240 hideously expensive, and it's something that might be Yeah, you 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.680 have options, and options are good. Yeah. 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:18.040 I am very hesitant to like openly call for like 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:19.680 now is the time to leave the country. I do 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.200 not feel comfortable saying that for a number of reasons, 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:25.600 like some of them are or more political, as in 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.679 like I don't really subscribe to a politics of escape, 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.360 even the idea of like fleeing states. I feel a 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:33.400 little bit iffy about. 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:33.640 Now. 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.239 There's certainly, you know, a lot of cases where families 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.920 are trying to move, you know, outside states that have 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.560 more restricted access to trans healthcare for minors, towards more 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:47.720 friendly states, which I totally understand. But I have greatly 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.400 enjoyed getting to know a whole bunch of trans people 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.400 in the South, and a whole bunch of trans people 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.920 here are not willing to leave their home. This is 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.240 their home and it always will be and they're going 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.320 to stay and fight for it even as things get 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.360 you know, harder, And I don't think you should write 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:06.920 these people off. I don't think you should write these 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.840 places off. These these places are still a terrain of battle, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.360 and there are going to be places where trans people 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:16.880 can still live and still live fulfilling lives in many cases. 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.400 And that is that it's worth acknowledging, that's worth putting 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.720 effort into. To the point that, like after the election, 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:26.520 I was already considering maybe, you know, trying to travel 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:29.400 around the country some more. And after this last election, 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.120 my line of thought was way more on the side 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:34.440 of I would actually like to spend as much time 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.280 in Georgia as possible. I would actually want to stay 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.640 in this South for as much as I can, because 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.280 this is like not a place that I think people 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.200 should be walking away from. And in some ways that 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.520 does come from like a slightly privileged point of view 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.599 for multiple reasons, as someone who's white and holds a 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.160 Canadian passport as well as an American passport. That is, 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.240 you know, something that I like to have as a 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.559 back pocket option. But that's something I'm not like considering 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:03.720 like at all. Like I do not want to move 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.560 to Canada. All my friends are here, my life is here. 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.920 There's certain scenarios where things get much much, much worse, 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.160 even though things are already getting quite bad. But there 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.400 are certain scenarios where yes, that passport will come in handy, 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.240 And that's why I do encourage like, no matter what 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:21.280 you should you should see if you have any options 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.120 to become a citizen in more than one country. It 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.440 is a great thing to be. It's it's good to 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.040 not be just tied down to one place. But the 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.160 process of trying to to you know, immigrate somewhere where 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.600 you do not have a citizenship is already quite challenging. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.480 And we will probably discuss some some more of this 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:40.960 later because I think there's also a sort of like 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:44.360 onion of a threat of people when you're when you're 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.640 thinking of this question like which people will will be 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:50.800 or are currently being targeted the most, and how that 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.640 kind of affects the options in terms of like relocation 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.920 to places viewed as like safer havens. And I like 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:13.560 to jumpstart that onion of protect discussion. After these messages, we're. 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.400 Back and we're talking about onions which you need to 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.520 wear around your neck to protect you from evil spirits. Scarce, 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:20.880 and that's what you were getting at, right. 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.600 Yes, Uh, that's done. Move on to the next. 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:29.240 Topic, where five different onions to drive away the various 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:33.400 secret police forces trying to hunt down individuals. Yes, speaking 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.000 of I guess like the big thing I'm thinking about 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.800 right now, or one of some big things, is there's 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.440 different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals currently in 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.920 the United States. One you have like people who are 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:50.920 completely undocumented, right. You have people who are currently here 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.320 on like valid asylum claims who are about to get 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.480 those rights like stripped away. I'm trying to think of 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.000 like the list of refugees that were allowed under Biden 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.320 that are now like like imminently going to get their 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.320 stuff stripped away from the Trump administration. I know Venezuelan, Yeah, 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:10.920 I know, you run. Haitian immigrants are another off god, 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.320 but groups that have that have been able to come 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.400 here the past few years that are going to be 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.320 now seen as like quote unquote illegal by the White 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:22.360 House and Immigration Customs Enforcement. You then have student visa 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.920 holders which are already like currently under threat getting visas 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.199 taken away. You have people on work visas. You have 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.280 Green card holders, and you even have naturalized citizens and 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.559 among just regular citizens, a naturalists, I guess people that 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.079 were born here. You have other factors that could lead 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:44.280 to potential hardship. Based on political affiliation or based on 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.160 gender and sexuality, And that's kind of like the bracket 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.600 breakdown I'm working off of. So as much as it's 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.000 like dangerous to be like, you know, like a trans 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.280 anarchist right in the United States, I think that is 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.600 that is fairly different than a Haitian immigrant who's about 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.480 to get like, yeah, literally hunted down by ice, right, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.480 And these people have wildly different realities, wildly different options 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.280 for how they're going to like handle this question and 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.320 handle like the decision of you know, preemptively choosing to 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.120 relocate somewhere else. James, do you have any kind of 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.360 thoughts on this like onion? I guess yeah. 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.960 I mean I think you described it well, right, Like 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:24.520 I think a lot of folks are for the first 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.760 time finding themselves in that onion at all, right, and 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.640 certainly with respect to like immigration enforcement or potentially being 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.319 forced to leave this country. And I think it would 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.679 be good maybe to look at folks who have been 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.360 there for a long time and look at how they've done, right, 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.560 because there have been people whose existence was precarious in 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:48.880 this country for decades. Right, maybe we'd go back to 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:51.280 nineteen ninety four in Operation Gatekeeper. Maybe we go back 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.679 further whatever, I don't care. Maybe we'd go back to 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.319 the operation whose name is also a slur in the 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.200 nineteen thirties. And I'm not going to say I. 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.760 Mean and indigenous people here, like for all of America, 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.880 it sure have been been people that like exist in 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:10.320 a wildly different reality than like, yeah, most US citizens, right. 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.240 Yeah, where, Yes, this country is predicated on the genocide 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:14.079 of indigenous people. 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.760 Well, and even in the ways that they're the like 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:21.480 continue to live here. It's it's like a different world from. 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.240 Yeah, like that genocide is ongoing, Like, it's not it's 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.600 not a thing that stopped. Yeah, it's not a historical thing. 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.319 It's the thing that exists. As long as this country exists. 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.240 I would look to those people, right, Like you said, Garrison, 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:36.200 Indigenous communities, Indigenous people continue to exist in this country 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.000 despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them. 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:43.680 Undocumented communities, right, Migrant communities of mixed status have continued 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.800 to exist for a very long time. And like, the 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.559 way that they have got through this is together, and 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.640 that's the way that we will get through this too. 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:55.960 When there have been threats to migrant communities, migrant communities 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:57.880 have shown up for each other, right, they're doing that 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.280 right now. You see groups like Del Barrio in San Diego, 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:05.080 right like going around announcing when there are ice presence 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.280 of ICE officers in the neighborhood. The way that they 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.720 have gone through it is through other people in positions 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.440 of procarity, showing up for one another and taking care 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.480 of one another. And if that is a new position 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:21.720 for you, if finding yourself like further along the intersectional 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:26.000 matrix of oppression is new for you, then like it's scary. 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:30.160 I do understand that that procurity is petrifying, but understand 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.240 that communities and people have been here for a long 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.880 time and look at how they've got through it. And 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.479 in queer communities too to a degree, have been persecuted 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:40.280 in this country for a very long time and have 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.040 developed ways of not just like existing, but also like 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:48.000 continuing to center joy and experience joy and not just 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.320 like live in fear, because I think if you live 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.440 in fear, like you've kind of given up to a degree, 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.680 Oh you've let them win. To agree, I should say, like, 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.480 I do understand that being new to this is petrifying 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.680 for people, and like I don't want to just say like, oh, 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.920 you shouldn't be scared, or you know, you should look 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.960 at at how migrant communities have taken care of one another, 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:11.160 but like now is the time to begin establishing solidarity 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.840 as well. So like those communities which have been precarious 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.400 for some time, they're not closed spaces, right, Like you 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:19.600 can be in solidarity with them and you can learn 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.640 from them, And I think that now is the time 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:24.880 to do that. Like, now is the time to build 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:29.120 stronger links. If you're really worried about things being really 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:30.920 bad in this country and you have good reason to 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:31.760 be right, like. 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.680 Oh, yeah, shit's fucked up and bullshit, yeah it's really 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.640 fucking bad, really bad. Yeah, Like you know, we're sending 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.880 people to labor camps. If you're scared, panicking thinking I 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.120 got to get out of here, I get you. Yeah. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.960 No, I mean I think the thing that you should 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.560 be doing, regardless of who you are, is you should 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.080 be giving yourself options. H you should be increasing the 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.760 amount of options that you have. And like, that is 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.240 something that is never a bad idea, That is something 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.360 that you could never do too early. It's something that 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.800 you should have already been doing. Frankly, like I've been 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.800 advocating for people to get passports, including an American passport, 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:11.880 because that doesn't make it easier to leave the country. 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:14.560 You should be getting that, and it's going to be harder, 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.800 especially if you're trends now, to get a passport that 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.680 matches what you look like, right, But this is still 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:23.640 something I think is worth doing because it gives you 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:26.560 an option, and you should be increasing the amount of 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:27.320 options you have. 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.720 Yeah, I think, yeah, it's never a bad thing. And 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.960 like that community structure is an option too, Like people 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:36.680 showing up for you and you showed up for them, 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:38.920 that is one of your options. Don't forget that. And 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.360 like that will also bring you join You will feel 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:45.560 safer when you like we were supposed to live in communities, 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.080 and like I you know, I've seen a lot of 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.800 people in very difficult circumstances. And one of the Curtish 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:54.920 guys once said to me in the in the desert, 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.400 he was like, whatever we do, we do together. And 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.160 I thought that was very profound because they were at 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.680 that time like dancing around a fire in the midst 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.199 of what was like an open air concentration camp. You know, 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.639 but if you can find a community and you can 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:09.960 find a way to continue to experience joy, then I 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.480 promise that things won't be as bad as they seem 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:13.000 right now. 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:13.680 Yep. 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.680 Within the Kurdish Shrina movement, there's a phrase that is 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.159 commonly used a slogan. You could say, I guess in 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:24.480 Kurdish you would say betshwudan Jian means resistance is life. 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:28.119 And we should remember that for whole groups of people, 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.520 many of whom we've featured here, if they had all 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.120 just left, they would no longer exist in the way 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:36.200 that they exist now. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:36.439 Right. 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:43.080 Kurdish people have been oppressed by various states for centuries, right, Turkish, Iraqi, 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:47.960 Iranian and Syrian. They've been subject to genocidal violence, and 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.200 they've still remained there, right, and they've continued to fight 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.160 against that state oppression, and they've created something beautiful today 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:55.920 as a result that we can see in Raja. But 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.080 the same is true of the Quran and Kareni people 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:03.640 we've spoken to in right. They decided to remain rather 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.880 than to leave, and in doing so that they created 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.359 a culture that was based on resistance and that resisted 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.920 the ability of the state to exercise a monopoly on 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:17.760 violence and to determine their outcomes. And I think we 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.040 should look to those examples as we consider, like, what 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:25.000 does it mean if the state becomes more hostile. 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.000 Here something that like I think I think Robert said 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.760 in our work group chat, which thankfully has not been 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:32.240 turned into an Atlantic article. 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.800 I did invite Pete Hegseeth, so we'll see if he 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.119 HAPs in. You know, he's rejected us all the good times. 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.320 Yeah, if you're trying to add the Atlantic editor in 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:43.320 chief year, he. 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.160 Is not welcome. He's absolutely not welcome. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.840 That guy just need him to manufacture consent for bombing 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:51.800 another country in the Middle East on our podcast. 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.119 It's so funny because it is like that is like 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.639 the dream of every journalist that you just get added 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:59.159 to the entire government's war planning chat and he just 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.359 uses it to d on the Trump admin like you 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:05.880 get more info unlike anything than he like home's back 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.240 into the head. Yes, it's it's it's fucking hysterical. 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:11.639 Yeah, they could have had four years and maybe no 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:13.040 maybe any one off chat. 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.520 Yeah, would they would have They would have accidentally invited 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:21.280 a different journalist. It was going to happen eventually, but yeah. 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:24.159 But something Robert said in our chat is that like 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:28.520 if you already had like plans or the ability to 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.200 move to a different country of your choosing, then yeah, 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.360 why not, right, Like if if if you already were 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.639 thinking about moving to Germany, which is very funny to 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.679 say now, right, but if you already had plans and 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.320 you had the ability to do that, then then sure 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:46.080 that's something that that you should that that you should 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:50.280 like consider. If you do not already have pre existing 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.120 plans and means, maybe it's not something to put all 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.879 of your effort into doing right now, because that is 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:58.719 such a massive undertaking in general, and and not everyone 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.560 has that option, and there's to be people stuck here, 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:04.640 and you know, part of like my thinking on this 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.480 is is like I'm in a relatively privileged position. I 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.280 would rather use the sort of benefits and the stability 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.600 that I have to help other people that are going 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.040 to be living in this country. So I'm going to 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.360 stay here to do that. And that's part of kind 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:23.199 of my thought process. On a personal level, do I, 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:27.359 you know, one day maybe one to live off the continent. Yeah, 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.879 but that's like for personal reasons, not for political reasons. 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.959 That that's because I think Glasgow looks pretty. And if 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.919 you also think Glasgow is pretty and you want to 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.560 move there, then that's fine. But I guess, like the 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.320 politics of escape, I do find a little bit troubling 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.240 in some ways, and I guess I would like to 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.919 talk about that a little bit more after this at break. 0:20:59.040 --> 0:20:59.840 All right, we're back. 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:04.080