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Speaker 1: Call Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Oh, welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about

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Speaker 2: how it's happened here and it continues to happen here.

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Speaker 2: Sorry about that, but we're not changing the name of

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Speaker 2: the podcast, you know, because we're not anyway. I got

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Speaker 2: Jams stout with me, I got Garrison Davis with me.

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Speaker 2: Woot woot, huzzah.

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Speaker 3: So the past few weeks, myself is as well as

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Speaker 3: probably everyone else on this call, has been getting a

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Speaker 3: lot of questions from listeners via the various social media

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Speaker 3: apps that we damage ourselves by logging into on a

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Speaker 3: much more than needed frequent basis. But one question that's

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Speaker 3: been kind of on a lot of people's minds and

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Speaker 3: something that we've been discussing as like a group, is

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Speaker 3: the idea of should you flee the country? Is the

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Speaker 3: party over? Do we need to use the time we

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Speaker 3: have now to get out? The Trump administration is cracking

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Speaker 3: down on a whole bunch of groups of already marginalized people,

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Speaker 3: people with fewer resources, immigrants, people who are here for asylum,

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Speaker 3: trans people, queer people in general. It's getting pretty scary

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Speaker 3: out there, and the thought crosses your mind, maybe there's

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Speaker 3: somewhere else that's better. And this has always been a

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Speaker 3: tough question for us to kind of think about because

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Speaker 3: we don't want to like inspire panic. That's not the

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Speaker 3: purpose of what we do here.

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Speaker 2: You should try to spread calm when times are bad

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Speaker 2: if you can.

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Speaker 3: But the situation politically in the country and in many

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Speaker 3: parts of the world right now is extremely fraud and

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Speaker 3: it does feel closer towards like the bad nightmare scenario

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Speaker 3: than kind of I've ever thought it has before. So

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Speaker 3: it's so it's a really tough question. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 3: think what we're going to be doing this episode is

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Speaker 3: just kind of talking about this question and our thoughts

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Speaker 3: around you know, various responses to this line of thought,

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Speaker 3: and I guess Robert kind of has a baseline like,

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Speaker 3: kind of quasi answer that I think we can use

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Speaker 3: as a jumping off point.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you're someone who is being targeted, you know,

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Speaker 2: or in a community of people who are being targeted,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're a naturalized citizen, your hair on a

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Speaker 2: green card, you're trans, you're any any of the many

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Speaker 2: different groups of people that are being targeted right now,

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Speaker 2: and you have the opportunity to leave, and you think

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Speaker 2: that that's the right thing for you, then you should

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Speaker 2: do it. You shouldn't feel bad about it. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you've got a job that is in demand in

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Speaker 2: other countries and you know the process and can get

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Speaker 2: start the process to like get residency somewhere else and

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Speaker 2: work somewhere else, and you know, make your life work

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Speaker 2: that way, then I don't think you should feel bad

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Speaker 2: about doing that. If that's what you decide is the

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Speaker 2: right thing for you. That said, it's not, it's just

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Speaker 2: simply not going to be a realistic possibility for most people.

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Speaker 2: What is more realistic for a lot of people is,

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Speaker 2: for example, moving from states where the risk is higher

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Speaker 2: to states where maybe the risk is lower. Hard to

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Speaker 2: say how long the risk will be lower, you know,

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Speaker 2: but I, you know, I certainly that's more achievable for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people than getting set up in a

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Speaker 2: foreign country, as James will talk about, if your hope

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Speaker 2: is just I'm going to try to go somewhere else

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Speaker 2: like Europe or whatever as an asylum seeker. As again,

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Speaker 2: James will go into more detail on life ain't easy

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Speaker 2: for asylum seekers and that's not really Again, it may

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Speaker 2: not be nearly as much of an option as you

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Speaker 2: think that it is right now. I you know, had

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Speaker 2: to go through kind of my own process after the

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Speaker 2: election of like, well, am I going to like, you know,

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Speaker 2: get my finances in order and move to another country

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Speaker 2: and basically try to like pay my way into getting

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Speaker 2: a visa somewhere like in Spain, which is an option

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Speaker 2: for someone like me. And I came to the conclusion

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Speaker 2: that like, nah, you know, if the worst case thing happens,

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Speaker 2: I'd rather like die here or whatever. It's just not

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Speaker 2: worth it, you know, to try to get out. So

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Speaker 2: I'm committing to trying to like hold the line here

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Speaker 2: with everybody basically that I love in the world, because

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Speaker 2: like what else are you going to do? You know?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I will just say that, you know, I

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Speaker 4: probably have met more asylum seekers than most people, you know,

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Speaker 4: and it is one of the more miserable fates available

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Speaker 4: to a human. It will if large numbers of people

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Speaker 4: start leaving the US, only get worse. If you're someone

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Speaker 4: who's a US citizen, you have probably not experienced much

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Speaker 4: in the way of like strict immigration enforcement. If you

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Speaker 4: have traveled around the world, right, you have one of

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Speaker 4: the more high value passports in the world. You can

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Speaker 4: you can go almost anywhere with a visa or in

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Speaker 4: many cases without a visa. Seeking asylum is an extremely

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Speaker 4: different process. If you think you're just going to get

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Speaker 4: on a flight and leave and stay somewhere, like understand

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Speaker 4: that many countries will probably begin to require reciprocal visas

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Speaker 4: with the United States soon if we continue our current

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Speaker 4: sort of pathway with a more isolationist immigration policy, and

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Speaker 4: then you'll have to get that visa, and then you know,

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Speaker 4: if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The

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Speaker 4: sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be

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Speaker 4: something you enjoy again. And that's just if you're able

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Speaker 4: to fly somewhere and so you try and overstay a

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Speaker 4: visa or you try and apply for asylum. I have

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Speaker 4: people I've met in every facet of my life, like

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Speaker 4: I know guys who I met as a bike racer

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Speaker 4: who have applied for asylum. Guys I met a bike

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Speaker 4: racer are staying on that barge in the UK. It

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Speaker 4: is a miserable fate. And I think that I'm not

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Speaker 4: saying don't do it. I'm saying that you need to

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Speaker 4: understand that it is highly unpleasant and it tripped you

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Speaker 4: of all dignity, and in some places exists people of

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Speaker 4: of like their lives. Right, people die migrating. It's also

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Speaker 4: like incredibly expensive to do the things that migrants do

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Speaker 4: because that everyone is trying to make a buck off them. Right.

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Speaker 4: I was just talking on another podcast about how the

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Speaker 4: journey that people took up through the Darien Gap who

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Speaker 4: tried to come to the United States, it would have

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Speaker 4: cost them way less just to fly, but they couldn't.

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Speaker 4: They couldn't get the visas. Right. That doesn't mean like

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Speaker 4: if you know, if you have a historical right to

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Speaker 4: citizenship through various you know, people have rights to Spanish

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Speaker 4: citizenship or German citizenship or Irish. Irish is one that

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Speaker 4: many people have access to. You, Yeah, why not? Why not?

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Speaker 4: You know, if you have the financial resources, we're not

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Speaker 4: try and see where that will go. Why not begin

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Speaker 4: pursuing that totally?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Sure, I think becoming a dual citizen if you have

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Speaker 3: the capability to, is a fantastic idea that I will

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Speaker 3: like never dissuade someone from.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 2: I would go so far as to say, even if

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Speaker 2: you plan to stay here, if you have the ability

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Speaker 2: to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now, absolutely, like.

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Speaker 4: Is it's something that you should do. It's often not

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Speaker 4: hideously expensive, and it's something that might be Yeah, you

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Speaker 4: have options, and options are good. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I am very hesitant to like openly call for like

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Speaker 3: now is the time to leave the country. I do

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Speaker 3: not feel comfortable saying that for a number of reasons,

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Speaker 3: like some of them are or more political, as in

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Speaker 3: like I don't really subscribe to a politics of escape,

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Speaker 3: even the idea of like fleeing states. I feel a

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Speaker 3: little bit iffy about.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: There's certainly, you know, a lot of cases where families

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Speaker 3: are trying to move, you know, outside states that have

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Speaker 3: more restricted access to trans healthcare for minors, towards more

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Speaker 3: friendly states, which I totally understand. But I have greatly

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Speaker 3: enjoyed getting to know a whole bunch of trans people

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Speaker 3: in the South, and a whole bunch of trans people

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Speaker 3: here are not willing to leave their home. This is

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Speaker 3: their home and it always will be and they're going

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Speaker 3: to stay and fight for it even as things get

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Speaker 3: you know, harder, And I don't think you should write

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Speaker 3: these people off. I don't think you should write these

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Speaker 3: places off. These these places are still a terrain of battle,

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Speaker 3: and there are going to be places where trans people

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Speaker 3: can still live and still live fulfilling lives in many cases.

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Speaker 3: And that is that it's worth acknowledging, that's worth putting

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Speaker 3: effort into. To the point that, like after the election,

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Speaker 3: I was already considering maybe, you know, trying to travel

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Speaker 3: around the country some more. And after this last election,

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Speaker 3: my line of thought was way more on the side

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Speaker 3: of I would actually like to spend as much time

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Speaker 3: in Georgia as possible. I would actually want to stay

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Speaker 3: in this South for as much as I can, because

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Speaker 3: this is like not a place that I think people

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Speaker 3: should be walking away from. And in some ways that

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Speaker 3: does come from like a slightly privileged point of view

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Speaker 3: for multiple reasons, as someone who's white and holds a

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Speaker 3: Canadian passport as well as an American passport. That is,

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Speaker 3: you know, something that I like to have as a

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Speaker 3: back pocket option. But that's something I'm not like considering

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Speaker 3: like at all. Like I do not want to move

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Speaker 3: to Canada. All my friends are here, my life is here.

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Speaker 3: There's certain scenarios where things get much much, much worse,

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Speaker 3: even though things are already getting quite bad. But there

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Speaker 3: are certain scenarios where yes, that passport will come in handy,

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Speaker 3: And that's why I do encourage like, no matter what

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Speaker 3: you should you should see if you have any options

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Speaker 3: to become a citizen in more than one country. It

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Speaker 3: is a great thing to be. It's it's good to

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Speaker 3: not be just tied down to one place. But the

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Speaker 3: process of trying to to you know, immigrate somewhere where

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Speaker 3: you do not have a citizenship is already quite challenging.

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Speaker 3: And we will probably discuss some some more of this

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Speaker 3: later because I think there's also a sort of like

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Speaker 3: onion of a threat of people when you're when you're

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Speaker 3: thinking of this question like which people will will be

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Speaker 3: or are currently being targeted the most, and how that

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Speaker 3: kind of affects the options in terms of like relocation

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Speaker 3: to places viewed as like safer havens. And I like

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Speaker 3: to jumpstart that onion of protect discussion. After these messages, we're.

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Speaker 2: Back and we're talking about onions which you need to

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Speaker 2: wear around your neck to protect you from evil spirits. Scarce,

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Speaker 2: and that's what you were getting at, right.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Uh, that's done. Move on to the next.

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Speaker 3: Topic, where five different onions to drive away the various

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Speaker 3: secret police forces trying to hunt down individuals. Yes, speaking

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Speaker 3: of I guess like the big thing I'm thinking about

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Speaker 3: right now, or one of some big things, is there's

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Speaker 3: different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals currently in

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Speaker 3: the United States. One you have like people who are

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Speaker 3: completely undocumented, right. You have people who are currently here

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Speaker 3: on like valid asylum claims who are about to get

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Speaker 3: those rights like stripped away. I'm trying to think of

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Speaker 3: like the list of refugees that were allowed under Biden

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Speaker 3: that are now like like imminently going to get their

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Speaker 3: stuff stripped away from the Trump administration. I know Venezuelan, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I know, you run. Haitian immigrants are another off god,

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Speaker 3: but groups that have that have been able to come

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Speaker 3: here the past few years that are going to be

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Speaker 3: now seen as like quote unquote illegal by the White

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Speaker 3: House and Immigration Customs Enforcement. You then have student visa

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Speaker 3: holders which are already like currently under threat getting visas

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Speaker 3: taken away. You have people on work visas. You have

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Speaker 3: Green card holders, and you even have naturalized citizens and

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Speaker 3: among just regular citizens, a naturalists, I guess people that

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Speaker 3: were born here. You have other factors that could lead

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Speaker 3: to potential hardship. Based on political affiliation or based on

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Speaker 3: gender and sexuality, And that's kind of like the bracket

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Speaker 3: breakdown I'm working off of. So as much as it's

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Speaker 3: like dangerous to be like, you know, like a trans

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Speaker 3: anarchist right in the United States, I think that is

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Speaker 3: that is fairly different than a Haitian immigrant who's about

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Speaker 3: to get like, yeah, literally hunted down by ice, right,

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Speaker 3: And these people have wildly different realities, wildly different options

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Speaker 3: for how they're going to like handle this question and

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Speaker 3: handle like the decision of you know, preemptively choosing to

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Speaker 3: relocate somewhere else. James, do you have any kind of

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Speaker 3: thoughts on this like onion? I guess yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean I think you described it well, right, Like

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of folks are for the first

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Speaker 4: time finding themselves in that onion at all, right, and

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Speaker 4: certainly with respect to like immigration enforcement or potentially being

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Speaker 4: forced to leave this country. And I think it would

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Speaker 4: be good maybe to look at folks who have been

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Speaker 4: there for a long time and look at how they've done, right,

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Speaker 4: because there have been people whose existence was precarious in

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Speaker 4: this country for decades. Right, maybe we'd go back to

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety four in Operation Gatekeeper. Maybe we go back

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Speaker 4: further whatever, I don't care. Maybe we'd go back to

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Speaker 4: the operation whose name is also a slur in the

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Speaker 4: nineteen thirties. And I'm not going to say I.

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Speaker 3: Mean and indigenous people here, like for all of America,

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Speaker 3: it sure have been been people that like exist in

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Speaker 3: a wildly different reality than like, yeah, most US citizens, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, where, Yes, this country is predicated on the genocide

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Speaker 4: of indigenous people.

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Speaker 3: Well, and even in the ways that they're the like

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Speaker 3: continue to live here. It's it's like a different world from.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like that genocide is ongoing, Like, it's not it's

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Speaker 4: not a thing that stopped. Yeah, it's not a historical thing.

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Speaker 4: It's the thing that exists. As long as this country exists.

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Speaker 4: I would look to those people, right, Like you said, Garrison,

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Speaker 4: Indigenous communities, Indigenous people continue to exist in this country

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Speaker 4: despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them.

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Speaker 4: Undocumented communities, right, Migrant communities of mixed status have continued

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Speaker 4: to exist for a very long time. And like, the

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Speaker 4: way that they have got through this is together, and

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Speaker 4: that's the way that we will get through this too.

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Speaker 4: When there have been threats to migrant communities, migrant communities

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Speaker 4: have shown up for each other, right, they're doing that

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Speaker 4: right now. You see groups like Del Barrio in San Diego,

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Speaker 4: right like going around announcing when there are ice presence

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Speaker 4: of ICE officers in the neighborhood. The way that they

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Speaker 4: have gone through it is through other people in positions

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Speaker 4: of procarity, showing up for one another and taking care

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Speaker 4: of one another. And if that is a new position

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Speaker 4: for you, if finding yourself like further along the intersectional

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Speaker 4: matrix of oppression is new for you, then like it's scary.

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Speaker 4: I do understand that that procurity is petrifying, but understand

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Speaker 4: that communities and people have been here for a long

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Speaker 4: time and look at how they've got through it. And

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Speaker 4: in queer communities too to a degree, have been persecuted

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Speaker 4: in this country for a very long time and have

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Speaker 4: developed ways of not just like existing, but also like

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Speaker 4: continuing to center joy and experience joy and not just

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Speaker 4: like live in fear, because I think if you live

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Speaker 4: in fear, like you've kind of given up to a degree,

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Speaker 4: Oh you've let them win. To agree, I should say, like,

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Speaker 4: I do understand that being new to this is petrifying

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Speaker 4: for people, and like I don't want to just say like, oh,

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Speaker 4: you shouldn't be scared, or you know, you should look

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Speaker 4: at at how migrant communities have taken care of one another,

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Speaker 4: but like now is the time to begin establishing solidarity

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Speaker 4: as well. So like those communities which have been precarious

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Speaker 4: for some time, they're not closed spaces, right, Like you

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Speaker 4: can be in solidarity with them and you can learn

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Speaker 4: from them, And I think that now is the time

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Speaker 4: to do that. Like, now is the time to build

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Speaker 4: stronger links. If you're really worried about things being really

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Speaker 4: bad in this country and you have good reason to

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Speaker 4: be right, like.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, shit's fucked up and bullshit, yeah it's really

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Speaker 2: fucking bad, really bad. Yeah, Like you know, we're sending

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Speaker 2: people to labor camps. If you're scared, panicking thinking I

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Speaker 2: got to get out of here, I get you. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No, I mean I think the thing that you should

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Speaker 3: be doing, regardless of who you are, is you should

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Speaker 3: be giving yourself options. H you should be increasing the

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Speaker 3: amount of options that you have. And like, that is

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Speaker 3: something that is never a bad idea, That is something

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Speaker 3: that you could never do too early. It's something that

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Speaker 3: you should have already been doing. Frankly, like I've been

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Speaker 3: advocating for people to get passports, including an American passport,

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Speaker 3: because that doesn't make it easier to leave the country.

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Speaker 3: You should be getting that, and it's going to be harder,

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Speaker 3: especially if you're trends now, to get a passport that

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Speaker 3: matches what you look like, right, But this is still

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Speaker 3: something I think is worth doing because it gives you

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Speaker 3: an option, and you should be increasing the amount of

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Speaker 3: options you have.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, yeah, it's never a bad thing. And

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Speaker 4: like that community structure is an option too, Like people

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Speaker 4: showing up for you and you showed up for them,

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Speaker 4: that is one of your options. Don't forget that. And

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Speaker 4: like that will also bring you join You will feel

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Speaker 4: safer when you like we were supposed to live in communities,

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Speaker 4: and like I you know, I've seen a lot of

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Speaker 4: people in very difficult circumstances. And one of the Curtish

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Speaker 4: guys once said to me in the in the desert,

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Speaker 4: he was like, whatever we do, we do together. And

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Speaker 4: I thought that was very profound because they were at

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Speaker 4: that time like dancing around a fire in the midst

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Speaker 4: of what was like an open air concentration camp. You know,

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Speaker 4: but if you can find a community and you can

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Speaker 4: find a way to continue to experience joy, then I

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Speaker 4: promise that things won't be as bad as they seem

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Speaker 4: right now.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 4: Within the Kurdish Shrina movement, there's a phrase that is

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Speaker 4: commonly used a slogan. You could say, I guess in

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Speaker 4: Kurdish you would say betshwudan Jian means resistance is life.

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Speaker 4: And we should remember that for whole groups of people,

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Speaker 4: many of whom we've featured here, if they had all

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Speaker 4: just left, they would no longer exist in the way

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Speaker 4: that they exist now.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: Kurdish people have been oppressed by various states for centuries, right, Turkish, Iraqi,

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Speaker 4: Iranian and Syrian. They've been subject to genocidal violence, and

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Speaker 4: they've still remained there, right, and they've continued to fight

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Speaker 4: against that state oppression, and they've created something beautiful today

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Speaker 4: as a result that we can see in Raja. But

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Speaker 4: the same is true of the Quran and Kareni people

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Speaker 4: we've spoken to in right. They decided to remain rather

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Speaker 4: than to leave, and in doing so that they created

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Speaker 4: a culture that was based on resistance and that resisted

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Speaker 4: the ability of the state to exercise a monopoly on

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Speaker 4: violence and to determine their outcomes. And I think we

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Speaker 4: should look to those examples as we consider, like, what

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Speaker 4: does it mean if the state becomes more hostile.

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Speaker 3: Here something that like I think I think Robert said

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Speaker 3: in our work group chat, which thankfully has not been

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Speaker 3: turned into an Atlantic article.

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Speaker 2: I did invite Pete Hegseeth, so we'll see if he

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Speaker 2: HAPs in. You know, he's rejected us all the good times.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're trying to add the Atlantic editor in

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Speaker 4: chief year, he.

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Speaker 2: Is not welcome. He's absolutely not welcome.

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Speaker 4: That guy just need him to manufacture consent for bombing

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Speaker 4: another country in the Middle East on our podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny because it is like that is like

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Speaker 2: the dream of every journalist that you just get added

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Speaker 2: to the entire government's war planning chat and he just

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Speaker 2: uses it to d on the Trump admin like you

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Speaker 2: get more info unlike anything than he like home's back

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Speaker 2: into the head. Yes, it's it's it's fucking hysterical.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they could have had four years and maybe no

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Speaker 4: maybe any one off chat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, would they would have They would have accidentally invited

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Speaker 2: a different journalist. It was going to happen eventually, but yeah.

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Speaker 3: But something Robert said in our chat is that like

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Speaker 3: if you already had like plans or the ability to

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Speaker 3: move to a different country of your choosing, then yeah,

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Speaker 3: why not, right, Like if if if you already were

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Speaker 3: thinking about moving to Germany, which is very funny to

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Speaker 3: say now, right, but if you already had plans and

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Speaker 3: you had the ability to do that, then then sure

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Speaker 3: that's something that that you should that that you should

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Speaker 3: like consider. If you do not already have pre existing

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Speaker 3: plans and means, maybe it's not something to put all

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Speaker 3: of your effort into doing right now, because that is

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Speaker 3: such a massive undertaking in general, and and not everyone

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Speaker 3: has that option, and there's to be people stuck here,

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Speaker 3: and you know, part of like my thinking on this

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Speaker 3: is is like I'm in a relatively privileged position. I

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Speaker 3: would rather use the sort of benefits and the stability

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Speaker 3: that I have to help other people that are going

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Speaker 3: to be living in this country. So I'm going to

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Speaker 3: stay here to do that. And that's part of kind

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Speaker 3: of my thought process. On a personal level, do I,

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Speaker 3: you know, one day maybe one to live off the continent. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but that's like for personal reasons, not for political reasons.

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Speaker 3: That that's because I think Glasgow looks pretty. And if

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Speaker 3: you also think Glasgow is pretty and you want to

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Speaker 3: move there, then that's fine. But I guess, like the

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Speaker 3: politics of escape, I do find a little bit troubling

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Speaker 3: in some ways, and I guess I would like to

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Speaker 3: talk about that a little bit more after this at break.

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Speaker 2: All right, we're back.

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Speaker 3: James made a horrible face when I when I complimented Scotland.

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Speaker 3: What was up with that?

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Speaker 4: When you said glass Goal? Like, so Glasgow not not

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Speaker 4: a city that's traditionally like aesthetically prized.

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Speaker 3: I guess, uh, okay, well that's that's maybe.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Edinburgh is where if I was going to go

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Speaker 2: to Scotland I probably am.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to live in the Harry Potter Town.

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Speaker 3: Are you kidding me?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: It existed?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that is rude, Garrison.

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Speaker 2: Don't take that away from Edinburgh. Don't give her that.

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Speaker 3: All the coffee shops are like fucking wizard themes. Now,

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Speaker 3: absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: You haven't been to Edinburgh, don't tell me that ship.

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Speaker 3: I've seen your travel pictures, Robert.

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Speaker 2: I'm they were mostly hard liquor themed.

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Speaker 4: Okay, that's fair, you can Edinburgh is a nice city.

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Speaker 4: Glasgow is a nice city. You can joy, you can

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Speaker 4: enjoy it, but stopped by Karla on your way down there.

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Speaker 4: My family are from.

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Speaker 2: My favorite Glasgow fact is that there's a beverage called

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Speaker 2: Buckfast that is twenty percent alcohol mineral wine made by

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Speaker 2: monks that has as much coffee as a red bull,

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Speaker 2: And in Glasgow, Scotland, for a significant period of time,

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Speaker 2: roughly one percent of all violent crimes were committed with

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Speaker 2: the bottle.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Bucky is it's a whole subculture.

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Speaker 2: Buckfast gets you fucked fast, That's right, folks.

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Speaker 3: So a term I've used for like the past few

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Speaker 3: years to like discuss this, to discuss this question of

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Speaker 3: like can you like outrun American fascism is the politics

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Speaker 3: of escape. And for a while I really was vocally

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Speaker 3: opposed to this sort of politics because it felt like

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Speaker 3: the entire world was going through a global far right

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Speaker 3: power grap and no matter where you run, you can't

438
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 3: really get away from it. And now kind of curiously,

439
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 3: you know, some of this is still happening, right, you

440
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 3: can look at the AfD in Germany. But some of

441
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 3: what's happened with this Trump administration has almost weakened a

442
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,479
Speaker 3: degree of like this global far right power grab. Like

443
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 3: for a long time it looked like the Conservative Party

444
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 3: of Canada was about to just completely take control over

445
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 3: the whole over the whole country due to like be

446
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 3: pent up frustration over Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party. And now

447
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 3: due to the actions of the Trump administration, the Liberals

448
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 3: have retaken a significant portion of like popular support and

449
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 3: are probably gonna do a big sweep in the general election.

450
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 3: That's going to happen, I'm guessing next month with the

451
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: new Prime Minister like about about to call one, which

452
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 3: makes sense because he should call one at the at

453
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 3: the peak of support for the Liberal Party. Yeah, after

454
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 3: the Conservatives have taken like a twelve to seventeen point

455
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 3: depth depending which pool you use. So for a while

456
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 3: I was like, it doesn't even really make sense to

457
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 3: flee to Canada because Canada is right on the coattails

458
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 3: of America. Canadian politics are kind of historically but like

459
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 3: ten years delayed from American politics, and now the new

460
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 3: drum administration is kind of thrown a curveball in this.

461
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 3: British politics are always really hard for me to diagnose

462
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 3: because all of their parties there are pretty wacky in

463
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 3: my mind. Oh, like, you know, what the Tories have

464
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 3: been doing has been extremely worrying. Like the NHS, like

465
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: trans stuff is pretty bad. Now that the you know,

466
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 3: Labor Party is in, it's hard for me to figure

467
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 3: out kind of where the country is going because this

468
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 3: Labor Party is a pretty conservative labor party. But like

469
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 3: this idea of like being able to outrun American fascism

470
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 3: is still something I find like unconvincing. I guess, like

471
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 3: you can't fully run away from all of these problems,

472
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 3: and there may be certain people that it's still like

473
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 3: makes sense to start making these moves just to start

474
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 3: planning for that option, right, I am pro options, even

475
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 3: if this idea of like total escape still find trouble. Yeah,

476
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: and anyone else making a kind of thoughts on this

477
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 3: on this saw.

478
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like as goes to US, goes the world, right,

479
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 4: And but that is changing. But like maybe I think

480
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 4: if it gets to the point where large numbers of

481
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 4: people are fleeing the US, we might see some of

482
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 4: that same anti migrant rhetoric that we've seen in the

483
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 4: US in even relatively liberal Canada, the United Kingdom or

484
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 4: other anglophone countries. Right, Like, it's already very hard to

485
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 4: to immigrate to Australia. It's not the easiest to immigrate

486
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 4: to Canada. Frankly, yeah, I not. I'm not as familiar

487
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 4: with the Canadian.

488
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 3: One, especially as like an American. Yeah, unless you have

489
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 3: like a job that you need to do in Canada

490
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: and you're the only one who can do that job,

491
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 3: or you get a Canadian girlfriend or that's that makes

492
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 3: it slightly easier, but still not still not like completely easier.

493
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 4: Frankly, yeah, that is a I guess that's the alternative. Yeah,

494
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 4: I think, like I know, like a lot of people

495
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 4: who listen to this listen to this because they have

496
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 4: a fairly radical politics, right or left politics, and like.

497
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 3: Or you're a journalist or you're a federal worker, uh.

498
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 4: Huh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're looking to steal

499
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 4: our stories. Fuck off, if I may say so, But like, yeah,

500
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 4: we've all grown up on the stories of people who

501
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 4: stood up for what they believed in, right, And Margaret

502
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 4: makes a whole podcast about it, and Robert does on

503
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 4: Christmases yep, and like there's a reason why they did that,

504
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 4: Like you know they I know that the idea of

505
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 4: running away and being safe could be tempting, But like,

506
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 4: if this country gets as bad as it needs to

507
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 4: be for people to run away in large number, it's

508
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 4: like the world gets markedly less safe. Oh yeah, you're

509
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 4: going to be running for the rest of your life.

510
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 2: Just look at how much food the US produces, how

511
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 2: much medicine. Seventy percent of all of the blood used

512
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: in every single country's medical system around the world is

513
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: exported from the United States. Oh wow, Yeah, that's crazy.

514
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 3: And like, particularly for for like US citizens right looking

515
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 3: looking to flee, the people who are going to be

516
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 3: able to pull it off are people with pretty pretty

517
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 3: extraordinary means in most cases. I'm not I'm not, I'm

518
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 3: not saying all cases, but like if if, if you

519
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 3: have the capacity to move from from the United States

520
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 3: to Germany, you're you're probably not living on the poverty line,

521
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 3: right like that this is this is this, This takes

522
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 3: a considerable financial investment. So instead, part of what my

523
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 3: opposition to this is that you're essentially abandoning a whole

524
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 3: bunch of like the like most at risk people. Yea,

525
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 3: A part of this even extends out to like moving

526
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 3: from state to state. I'm obviously in support of free movement.

527
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 3: I've traveled around, and I'm going to continue to travel around.

528
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 3: I want to see as much as the country in

529
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: the world as I can. But like another facet of

530
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 3: this politics of escape is that something I hear very

531
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 3: consistently from my my friends in Atlanta, And this is

532
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 3: something I can attest to, like personally, the most amount

533
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 3: of like like local transphobia from people like on the

534
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 3: street that they have faced has not been in Atlanta

535
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 3: where they live. It's been when they're visiting people in

536
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 3: Seattle or Portland. Like you actually get a lot more

537
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 3: like weird anti queer harassment in Seattle, just just like

538
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 3: on like the street level. It's bizarre, Like cities all

539
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: have different kind of like modes of operation. People have

540
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 3: different like informal like manners in terms of how how

541
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 3: you like behave on the street. And it's it's it is.

542
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 3: This is something that I've definitely actually I've definitely experienced.

543
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 3: There's there's a lot more like open openness towards like

544
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,239
Speaker 3: certain types of of like anti trans harassment in like

545
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: these like liberal safe havens like quote unquote, yeah, I've

546
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: been called slurs on the street way more in Portland,

547
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 3: Oregon than I have in Atlanta, Georgia. And this is

548
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 3: this is another like interesting aspect which I'm not saying

549
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: Atlanta is quote unquote safer city than Seattle if you're

550
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: trans I'm not saying the vice versa either, But this

551
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 3: is like just an aspect of like the politics of escape,

552
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 3: like especially in the in the United States, like they're there,

553
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 3: like is really no like real escape, like there there

554
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: is no mythical safe haven where you can live your

555
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 3: your free life and frolics through the park and never

556
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 3: have to face any kind of hardship or like political disenfranchisement.

557
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 3: If you still want to relocate somewhere, that's something that

558
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 3: you should consider and again create options. But I also

559
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 3: do not want to like abandon my friends here because

560
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 3: I just you know, have a more stable job, Like

561
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 3: I I want to be here for them and and

562
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: help them and not in like a patronizing way, but

563
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: in like a solidarity way. Like that's like really important

564
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 3: to me. And I think of people who are who

565
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 3: are thinking about these same things and kind of running

566
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 3: these same questions of of if they want to commit

567
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: a sting in the United States, I think should also

568
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 3: make those considerations of is like you know which which

569
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: one of your friends is not going to be able

570
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: to make the same calculation. Yep, And frankly, I feel

571
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: I feel like better as a person and like my

572
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 3: mental health feels better knowing I'm gonna be here with

573
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 3: them rather than going to a Berlin nightclub, which does

574
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: sound fun. And I still might on vacation.

575
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: Oh, you definitely need to go to Bergain, Garrett.

576
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, I have.

577
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: I have planned three days that feel like about four

578
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: hours in Bergaine.

579
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: I am, I am, I'm excited. I am for the

580
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 3: first time planning to leave the continent this year, which

581
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 3: is a little bit scary because re entering the United

582
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: States is pretty tricky right now, which should also play

583
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: into your considerations.

584
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, the general safety of air travel at the.

585
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 3: Moment, safety and air travel now that we don't have

586
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 3: a gay man running the planes.

587
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, it turns out he was actually all right.

588
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 3: At bat woke was keeping those planes in the air, you.

589
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: Know, kudos to him. Turns out he was okay at

590
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: bet job.

591
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: But but yes, I don't know what I was saying,

592
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 3: but I'm sure it was really important and well thought

593
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 3: through about not abandoning people who maybe don't have the

594
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: same resources that you do.

595
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, to your point about like coming back to the US,

596
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 4: understand that like one of the things that migrants to

597
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 4: deal with, even if they get to a place and

598
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 4: they have some degree permanents and they feel safe there,

599
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 4: is that they will never be able to go back

600
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 4: to where they're from in most cases, right, that means

601
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 4: when someone in their family passes away, they can't be

602
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 4: there for the funeral. That means that when they have

603
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 4: a grandchild, they have a niece or a nephew, something

604
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 4: happens in their community and they want to be there

605
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 4: to help. It's a natural disaster. They are just stuck.

606
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 4: And that's not something to like to discount as something

607
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 4: that's not important, Like that is really hard. And if

608
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 4: you have a community now, especially for trans folks, right,

609
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 4: Like I just think that, like there are so many

610
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 4: places where, like you say, Garrison, where bigotry against transfolks

611
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 4: is being more and more normalized. So like, if you

612
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 4: have a community where people where you're experiencing every day

613
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 4: with the people you're around, like leaving that should be

614
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 4: something that you really think hard about because that can

615
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 4: be hard to find yeah, yeah, expecting in Edinburgh because

616
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 4: they're old turfs with the in the cafes.

617
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: That's not too.

618
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 3: Just to be clear, Yeah, I mean, this is kind

619
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 3: of the discussion I wanted to have. I'm sure we

620
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 3: all have more thoughts on this that we will we

621
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 3: will express very eloquently as soon as we close this

622
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: recording session.

623
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 4: That's how we do it.

624
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 3: But but I know, this is this type of stuff

625
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 3: that we've been thinking about. I know, I know listeners

626
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 3: have been too. Because you're asking us these questions. It's

627
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 3: certainly annoying that we don't have a concise yes or

628
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: no answer. But there isn't a concise yes or no answer.

629
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,239
Speaker 3: I think the most concise one I have is that

630
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 3: you should be giving yourself as many options as you can.

631
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 3: If that includes applying for Irish citizenship because your grandfather

632
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,719
Speaker 3: is Irish, then hey, why not go for it?

633
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: Right, Ireland's great, nice country. You'll like it.

634
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: But I am I am trepidacious. I guess about about

635
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: you know, public calls to flee the country at this

636
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 3: point and kind of the underlying politics and ideology of that,

637
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 3: let alone the kind of the logistical aspects of trying

638
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 3: to relocate to a different country where you are not

639
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 3: a citizen, And frankly, I think there will be a

640
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 3: lot of countries that are not super eager to take

641
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: American immigrants. I think Canada is typically kind of, kind

642
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: of low key been one of these places. Especially if

643
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 3: we're going to go to war with Canada to make

644
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 3: it the fifty first state, then it might also uh

645
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: create create some some some tricky aspects.

646
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 4: You could make it hot.

647
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 3: But I know if anyone else has any any other thoughts,

648
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: air them now or forever. Be beholdened to angry Reddit comments.

649
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, please don't burn each other down on Reddit, like

650
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 4: now is the time to give people a little grace

651
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 4: and be kind to other people.

652
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: Don't flee to Belgium. Stay away from Belgium at all costs.

653
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 4: I had a nice time in Belgium.

654
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 3: What do you have against Belgium? I have a friend

655
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 3: in Belgium.

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Speaker 2: As an Italian. I think we need to go to

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Speaker 2: war with them again. You know, it's what made Caesar great.

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Speaker 2: It could make us great again. That's my stance on Belgium.

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Speaker 2: It's Italian territory.

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Speaker 4: I stand with the Belgian people.

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Speaker 1: It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

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Speaker 1: now find sources for it could happen here, listed directly

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Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening,