Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't think you never know. The story
Speaker 1: is of things synthy don't know the answer too. Hey everybody,
Speaker 1: and welcome back to the podcast Thinking Sideways. The podcast
Speaker 1: is the one that we are, not the other one
Speaker 1: you were looking at and decided not to download. You
Speaker 1: made the right choice. They are losers. I am Steve
Speaker 1: as always, joined by my co host Joe and Devin.
Speaker 1: So this week we're going to talk about a story
Speaker 1: that a lot of people probably know, but they may
Speaker 1: not realize how much debate there is around it. And
Speaker 1: it's it's a story that is who are the first
Speaker 1: people to settle the new world and to colonize it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: hot off the heels of our October sleigh fast, just
Speaker 1: like taking a little bit of I think you know
Speaker 1: my next episode is going to be a little weird,
Speaker 1: too different, not full of stabbing, And there is very
Speaker 1: little stabbing in this so yeah, very little of it.
Speaker 1: Uh So why don't we just go ahead and hop
Speaker 1: right into it? So as everybody knows Columbus sale the
Speaker 1: ocean blue. Actually that's not where we're going. We're going
Speaker 1: much farther back in time. We're gonna travel at least
Speaker 1: eleven to twenty some odd thousand years before today, somewhere
Speaker 1: in that rage and uh, and of course, you know,
Speaker 1: like we're gonna get in all of this, but who
Speaker 1: knows humans might have arrived on this on this continent
Speaker 1: fifty years ago. It's it's hard to say. And and
Speaker 1: and that's a that's a good point to bring up, Joe. Normally,
Speaker 1: as anybody's listening to the show before knows, we always
Speaker 1: kind of try to tell the story and then we
Speaker 1: talk about the theories and then we kind of hash
Speaker 1: them out. But in this case, it's not really a
Speaker 1: story all theories. So this is entirely the theory section.
Speaker 1: And be prepared for a lot of science, you guys, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of science. I did a lot
Speaker 1: of googling to figure out what words meant, specific words.
Speaker 1: I've never even heard that word. Yeah, oh, thank you Google.
Speaker 1: We're not going to get too heavily into the boring
Speaker 1: details of DNA analysis and stuff. Now. We're gonna keep
Speaker 1: this at a high level because if we tried to
Speaker 1: go into this, this would be an eight hour discussion
Speaker 1: if we really broke down into series archaeological nerd um,
Speaker 1: which we just because yeah, but let's just say when
Speaker 1: when Columbus arrived here, there were indigenous people and maybe
Speaker 1: not all of you knew this, but there were indigenous
Speaker 1: people here. Uh yeah, when I was a kid, actually
Speaker 1: there was like you know, it's like a Columbus arrived
Speaker 1: here and made friends with the Indians and took some
Speaker 1: of them back to Spain with them for Spain. You know.
Speaker 1: It's of course, I guess he really took him back
Speaker 1: as slaves. But yeah, well, the Columbus himself is a
Speaker 1: whole another story, and it's kind of a funny thing
Speaker 1: is there's a little bit of debate about what Columbus
Speaker 1: was doing and where he was going. And that's how
Speaker 1: I came across this as I was doing some research
Speaker 1: on Columbus and then I started discovering a bunch of
Speaker 1: this prehistory and that's where this whole story has has
Speaker 1: germinated from. Yeah, well, as a just a quick aside
Speaker 1: if you guys wanted to read a good book, and
Speaker 1: that's not just YouTube but our listeners to I can't
Speaker 1: remember the author, but the name of the book is
Speaker 1: the Last Voyage of Columbus, because because he came to
Speaker 1: the New World four times, it was a four. I
Speaker 1: thought was three. It was four times, yeah, and Joe
Speaker 1: would know he was there. And anyways, the so they
Speaker 1: went to some amazing, harrowing adventures, including having to sink
Speaker 1: their ship almost sank from underneath them. They had to
Speaker 1: beach it on a desert island in the Caribbean, and
Speaker 1: they were marooned for a year, and they went to
Speaker 1: a lot more harrowing things than that. You just got
Speaker 1: to read the book, but it was amazing. All the
Speaker 1: tribulations they want to Oh, no, I know Columbus is
Speaker 1: an interesting guy, and there may be at some point
Speaker 1: if I can get enough information on what I was
Speaker 1: going after, we may do something on Columbus. But let's
Speaker 1: get back to the topic at hand of settled the
Speaker 1: New World. First, So what we're gonna do here is
Speaker 1: we're gonna start with our first theory, which I think
Speaker 1: is the basis for what most people know, and it is, uh,
Speaker 1: the Baryngia. I believe it's how you say it, Barringian
Speaker 1: theory because it's the bearing straight I a on the end,
Speaker 1: so I said it's Berenga. Brengia was like, I guess
Speaker 1: the area include the land bridge plus parts of Alaska
Speaker 1: and the northeast Asia. Yeah, yeah, something like that. You're
Speaker 1: a little ahead, but that's fine. What Joe is getting
Speaker 1: at is that sometime during the last ice Age, which
Speaker 1: is this is an approximate number, about seventeen thousand years ago,
Speaker 1: the ice sheets across the planet had swollen, an advanced
Speaker 1: anston sucked up all the sea water, so of course
Speaker 1: the sea levels dropped, and the first people were able
Speaker 1: to go from the European continent on where it is
Speaker 1: now modern day Russia. The old U s SR travel
Speaker 1: a spit of land to the continental US via Alaska,
Speaker 1: and that that is called Eurasia. That chunker ground is
Speaker 1: called Eurasia, which is now underneath the burying straight. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Actually I think Eurasia is is Europe and Asia. Right, Oh,
Speaker 1: you're right. I'm sorry. They went from Eurasia across. That
Speaker 1: would be why it's bury in Ngia, which I'm not
Speaker 1: going to keep saying, you know, I'm screwing it up.
Speaker 1: I've got to say that. But that's aside that there
Speaker 1: must have been a hardy, hearty souls. I was about
Speaker 1: to say hearty mother, but I was heard they must
Speaker 1: have been very hearty soul and we're gonna get into
Speaker 1: some of the stuff about that. So you're gonna we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about that some. Uh So here's here's what
Speaker 1: the theory goes. And this is again it's probably the
Speaker 1: one that we've all learned in school, is that it
Speaker 1: was nomadic hunters who were chasing game herds that were
Speaker 1: in Siberia and they chased it across that land bridge
Speaker 1: and got into Alaska, and then eventually they spread south
Speaker 1: through Canada and then into what is now the United States,
Speaker 1: and that eventually would make their way into South America.
Speaker 1: They made their way through a gap in the glaciers
Speaker 1: that ran through I want to see it through Alberta,
Speaker 1: but I might be wrong. I might have that wrong.
Speaker 1: But there was basically a giant split between the two
Speaker 1: icebergs and there was dry land that was probably what
Speaker 1: we call the Rocky Mountains. It might have been, I'm
Speaker 1: not positive, but you know that that allows plant life
Speaker 1: to grow, which then attracts the animals, which then of
Speaker 1: course the humans would follow, and then that would dump
Speaker 1: out them out into the plains of the central United States.
Speaker 1: So this is where they're supposed to go. So this
Speaker 1: is also called in this is the easier name the
Speaker 1: land Bridge theory, which I think is what I'm gonna use.
Speaker 1: The idea of first came into existence in fifteen ninety
Speaker 1: h and it's from a Jesuit scholar in his name
Speaker 1: is Jose de Acosta, and he he postulated that this
Speaker 1: is how people would have made it to what they
Speaker 1: had deemed the New World. And now scientific research has
Speaker 1: gone on and they figure that these big game hunters
Speaker 1: would have crossed the Bearing Street something sometime between twelve
Speaker 1: to eleven thousand years ago, somewhere in that range is
Speaker 1: when they would have done it. Yeah, or they or
Speaker 1: they could have done it sometime in the in the
Speaker 1: far more in the more distant past too, apparently apparently
Speaker 1: crossing it there was a there was a couple of
Speaker 1: different windows in which to class and yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's swelled sets. And that's that's some of the theories
Speaker 1: farther on. But you know, let's let's keep running with
Speaker 1: the the the most common one, and actually the large
Speaker 1: scale migration of of humans into North America coin size
Speaker 1: with what the mass extinction of like the wooly mammoth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the big massive immigration probably did take place at about
Speaker 1: that time, and there is evidence to that. But there's
Speaker 1: also some climate things that were going on, you know,
Speaker 1: the suddenly the icebergers starting to melt, global temperatures coming up.
Speaker 1: Mascodons who are big, hairy, hairy creatures are in warmer environments,
Speaker 1: they're not going to live as long. But that's that's
Speaker 1: a whole another rabbit hole that we could go down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the point is is that you know, they would
Speaker 1: have crossed on foot and they would have been walking
Speaker 1: across that that land bridge to make it to that
Speaker 1: gap in the icebergs and then get dumped out onto
Speaker 1: the western plains. So that is that is, in a nutshell,
Speaker 1: a little very simplified version, how that theory works and
Speaker 1: how everybody thinks that people first came to this continent
Speaker 1: and then would have eventually migrated their way down to
Speaker 1: South America. Well, that's what they taught me in elementary school.
Speaker 1: So obviously it's right. Everything they teach you in elementary
Speaker 1: school is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing about
Speaker 1: the truth. Absolutely, that is absolutely. Are you about to
Speaker 1: tell me that that's not true? Possibly possibly true? The
Speaker 1: thing is is, yeah, nobody knows. I mean he was
Speaker 1: ancient man, was a widely a widely persistent creature. Persistent creature.
Speaker 1: I suspect that that North and South America were being
Speaker 1: bombarded by humans like for fifty thousand years in the past.
Speaker 1: And I mean it could be. Well, let's let's move
Speaker 1: on from the land Bridge and this kind of this
Speaker 1: next one, which is the Clovis culture, dovetails into that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. It doesn't exclude the land Bridge. No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: but this this is so here's here's what the Clovis
Speaker 1: culture is. Let's just kind of start there. The clothes
Speaker 1: Ca culture is a basically we said they followed big games,
Speaker 1: mastodons or the old camels, because camels were in this
Speaker 1: on this American continent as well. They were following all
Speaker 1: those they were big game hunters. Well, this people has
Speaker 1: been identified only through stone remains that have been left behind.
Speaker 1: Why are they Why are they called the Clovis culture? Sorry,
Speaker 1: And and that's that's actually that's a very good question.
Speaker 1: It is because of the fact that this was in
Speaker 1: two in Clovis, New Mexico. They were doing an excavation
Speaker 1: and they started discovering old bones like mastodon bones that
Speaker 1: kind of old big bones and finding all these stone
Speaker 1: points in in there, stuck in bone or buried with them.
Speaker 1: And so it's good for the clothes people. They were
Speaker 1: found somewhere like these things weren't found like in Deadwood,
Speaker 1: South Dakota. Yeah, the Deadwood people. Terrible name, Terrible Vegas,
Speaker 1: Las Vegas. Well, the Clovis culture is believed to have
Speaker 1: ranged over the majority of North and South America. And
Speaker 1: like I said, because they were found in Clovis, New Mexico,
Speaker 1: that that's the name that's appeared applied to them. And
Speaker 1: that follows in suits. Remember I said that there were
Speaker 1: there were spear points, Well they're called Clovis points based
Speaker 1: on the people that use them. Are there going to
Speaker 1: be a photographs of these these things on our website?
Speaker 1: We might have some, but I know the links that
Speaker 1: we're gonna share are going to have many, many, many
Speaker 1: different images because there is tons and tons of photos
Speaker 1: of these things. But let me try and describe a
Speaker 1: Clovis point because this is going to be kind of
Speaker 1: important for everybody to track with. Actually, it might be
Speaker 1: helpful for our listeners at this point to pause a
Speaker 1: podcast and go out to Wikipedia and then yeah, We'll
Speaker 1: go to the website and grab one of the links
Speaker 1: and you'll see some of this, and or just google
Speaker 1: Clovis point and it will come up. But here's here's
Speaker 1: what a Clovis point is. It's a flaked flint spear point.
Speaker 1: It's got a notched flute which is inserted into a
Speaker 1: wooden or bone shaft, and it's got then a flat
Speaker 1: bottom on it. And I know that probably makes no
Speaker 1: sense to you right now, which is why I think
Speaker 1: I need to stop and explain a little bit of
Speaker 1: this stone working technology, because there's some terms here that
Speaker 1: are going to get thrown around, and to help them
Speaker 1: make sense, I'm gonna try and you know, make some
Speaker 1: analogies to him and describe them as best I can.
Speaker 1: I said the word napping, well, stone napping is the
Speaker 1: process of breaking stone into a shape that you want
Speaker 1: to use. So if you were if you've ever just
Speaker 1: been hitting a rock with a hammer or something or
Speaker 1: another rock, you break it into a shape that you
Speaker 1: want to use for whatever purpose. That's called napping stone napping. Um,
Speaker 1: you'll hear the term used notched. If the easiest way
Speaker 1: to think about this is if you ever watch the
Speaker 1: Old movies where there's Indians and they're firing narrows and
Speaker 1: I being old movies is in like the nineteens seventies,
Speaker 1: back American Indians had stone arrow heads and it was
Speaker 1: kind of a triangle. It tapered in with kind of
Speaker 1: a C shape, so they could onto an arrow head.
Speaker 1: Or if you've ever been to the American Southwest, they
Speaker 1: sell the fake kind like by the millions. I always
Speaker 1: thought that those were actually a better design than the
Speaker 1: Clovis points personally, Well, it depends on the application, but
Speaker 1: that that that that section at the bottom, those kind
Speaker 1: of scalloped out C shapes, that's what's referred to as
Speaker 1: the notch. You've got the term fluted uh. And this
Speaker 1: is a stone tool of some kind, can be for
Speaker 1: any use that's got a groove running from its base
Speaker 1: to its tip down its center. So if you think
Speaker 1: about an arrowhead, but you were to stretch it out
Speaker 1: and elongate it and then bevel out on both sides,
Speaker 1: kind of a little shallow valley. Because again this is
Speaker 1: if you've ever watched a caveman movie where caveman has
Speaker 1: stick and he throws stick at beast and the stone
Speaker 1: is wedged in the tip. I would say it's similar
Speaker 1: to like the very basic outlet of like a broadsword.
Speaker 1: They have that like groove down the middle. It doesn't
Speaker 1: go all the way to the tip. That's kind of
Speaker 1: the reference I would make. Obviously it's not a sword,
Speaker 1: it's just like the tip of it. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know if that served. But this with what that flute, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're sayings. Actually those are called bloodlines. And this was
Speaker 1: This was for sticks, right, You would split a stick
Speaker 1: down the middle and stick that or maybe or something
Speaker 1: like a handle. It was a way to hold that
Speaker 1: piece of stone using tension mostly right. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's theories that they were tied in or maybe they're loose.
Speaker 1: I'm guessing they were tied in somehow. But again that's
Speaker 1: this is just the real basic overview of what these
Speaker 1: terms mean. Uh. Flaking is another term that you're gonna
Speaker 1: you here, and that is to describe the actual breaking
Speaker 1: of the stone, very specifically and usually with a pressure.
Speaker 1: So if you took um, you'ven't seen obsidian how that breaks.
Speaker 1: If you were to take that obsidian and put it
Speaker 1: against something else, it's hard and intentionally put pressure just
Speaker 1: to pull a thin sheet off of it, so you're
Speaker 1: slowly working it down into it. That's that's what the
Speaker 1: flakes are. Were flaking. The pieces that are left over
Speaker 1: called flakes. That's flaking. And then the last one that
Speaker 1: you'll see in some of this and you may hear
Speaker 1: is called by face. And this one took me a
Speaker 1: while to figure out. We've all seen pocket knives that
Speaker 1: flip open that's got a single sharp face to it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: by face has two sharp edges. So more like what
Speaker 1: you see you say, a butterfly knife or or a dagger, Yeah,
Speaker 1: something like that, that's gonna be. Yeah, that's what biface means.
Speaker 1: It's got a sharp cutting edge on both sides. So
Speaker 1: that's that's some of the terminology. Now the clothes people,
Speaker 1: as we said, they are believed to have ranged all
Speaker 1: over and they're believed to be the first culture in
Speaker 1: this country. Uh And and dating their remnants has only
Speaker 1: been possible when those points are found with bone of
Speaker 1: some kind. And because you can't date rock right because
Speaker 1: it's rock, as as I vehmly argued before, uh So
Speaker 1: when they do the carbon dating, that's how they're getting
Speaker 1: the idea of when those those things are from and
Speaker 1: some of those these points were originally evidently quote unquote dated,
Speaker 1: but they've been reevaluated based on carbon dating of the
Speaker 1: bones that were found, and that carbon dating is saying
Speaker 1: that they are somewhere between eleven thousand fifty years to
Speaker 1: ten thousand, eight hundred years before the present, So BP
Speaker 1: before present or BP s now the new term before BC. Yeah,
Speaker 1: BC B thank you, This is BP. This is BP
Speaker 1: before present. Yeah. So that would actually put them, if
Speaker 1: they're that at that age, that would put them here
Speaker 1: after the because my understanding is that the mass migration
Speaker 1: over the bearing of the bridge took place at about
Speaker 1: eleven to eleven eleven BC. Well. See, this is this
Speaker 1: is what makes us so a little bit convoluted, is
Speaker 1: that there are multiple dating systems being used, and I
Speaker 1: have done my best to try and clean some of
Speaker 1: these up and reconcile them. But some people use the BC,
Speaker 1: the B C E, the radio carbon date BP, so
Speaker 1: it gets a little difficult. And so I'm just say
Speaker 1: years old, so I've I've kind of tried to sell
Speaker 1: some of that out, and in what we're reading here today,
Speaker 1: the three of us, it's not always clear because I
Speaker 1: couldn't ever get a clear answer. Well, unlet's also keep
Speaker 1: in mind that these are artifacts that were found in
Speaker 1: like New Mexico, which it was first Yeah, contact, I
Speaker 1: would imagine it took hundreds of years meander down. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, so it's a little it's a
Speaker 1: little iffy. That's one of the things right about this
Speaker 1: whole story is like there's just so many different little bits.
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's unknown until a little later on
Speaker 1: the episode when we solve the mystery. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of theories out there. Yeah. Well, and and let's move forward.
Speaker 1: So we talked some about the Clovis people. Now let's
Speaker 1: talk about some of the evidence it supports that maybe
Speaker 1: they were the first in And bear with me because
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of science terms and this one sense
Speaker 1: alone that I will then exp lane. The tuzzable d
Speaker 1: N a of a twelve thousand, five hundred plus year
Speaker 1: old infant from Montana was sequenced, So they think the
Speaker 1: oldest infant in the world. Yeah, okay, so the infant. Right,
Speaker 1: So here's here's a here's a kind of an explanation
Speaker 1: some of that. So a Tuzmle DNA is any of
Speaker 1: the chromosomes other than sex determining chromosomes, which are the
Speaker 1: X and the Y or the genes of those chromosomes.
Speaker 1: So these are these are not sex genes. These are
Speaker 1: just kind of genes in in the in there that
Speaker 1: they're discovering to be able to date it with that
Speaker 1: particular infant is referred to as anzick one um, and
Speaker 1: it was found near several Clovis artifacts, so there's they're
Speaker 1: they're postulating from that that the two must be tied together,
Speaker 1: which kind of makes sense. Uh. They then did DNA
Speaker 1: testing and comparisons from Siberian sites, and these will be
Speaker 1: sites that had um, you know, these pre human or
Speaker 1: not pre human, but prehistoric. They had all the human
Speaker 1: samples and they ruled out that there were any European
Speaker 1: and by that I mean Western European affinities in the DNA.
Speaker 1: So it showed that then all. And then they did
Speaker 1: more they're more testing, and they showed that currently existing
Speaker 1: native populations of this country, which we the Native Americans,
Speaker 1: their DNA was related to it and I'm looking for
Speaker 1: the one um. They said that it was really derived
Speaker 1: from an ancient population that lived in Siberia in the
Speaker 1: upper paleolithic multi population multi sound right, it's when they
Speaker 1: put a postury fees in the middle of a word
Speaker 1: like it always in other words malta and I don't know,
Speaker 1: you might be right, but they did. They then took
Speaker 1: that in sequencing and they showed that South American and
Speaker 1: Central American Native American populations were directly related to that DNA.
Speaker 1: So in other words, they were running that chain of events.
Speaker 1: And this they say, and this will come in, this
Speaker 1: will make sense a little bit later, but they say
Speaker 1: that proves that the Clovis culture was here and it
Speaker 1: couldn't have interbred with a culture that had come from
Speaker 1: Europe to the what is now the America's And and
Speaker 1: I have to say that when I say that is
Speaker 1: I what I mean is if they did encounter other people,
Speaker 1: because it will be important in a little bit. If
Speaker 1: the encounter other people basically means they didn't breed with them,
Speaker 1: they killed them, or they did something. But no, no
Speaker 1: interbreeding happened on any big scale. So that's an important
Speaker 1: thing to remember for later on. So this would suggests
Speaker 1: then that if this club is this baby who was
Speaker 1: more closely related to Central and South American Indians, then
Speaker 1: to North American Indians that populationally have The day was
Speaker 1: to suggest that the Clubs people maybe didn't so much
Speaker 1: die out, its just move south and maybe a new, well,
Speaker 1: more aggressive population. They are related to the Indian cultures,
Speaker 1: the American Indian cultures that were in the eastern seaborn
Speaker 1: and the northeastern seaboard. But what it what it seems
Speaker 1: to indicate. I've seen some some graphs of the or
Speaker 1: some apps of this. It seems to indicate, to simplify it,
Speaker 1: that they headed south. They hit what I would guess
Speaker 1: was somewhere around Texas to Mexico, and one group kept
Speaker 1: heading south and the other group headed east and then
Speaker 1: they and then they went east, hit the sea and
Speaker 1: then began to head north again. So there's a divergence
Speaker 1: in the gene pool because of that. Now, again this
Speaker 1: is very theoretical. I don't understand the gene sequencing and
Speaker 1: how all of that works. You don't, That's what I
Speaker 1: understand it to me. I mean, it's pretty freaking cool,
Speaker 1: but that they can figure out that they must have
Speaker 1: diverged somewhere like that, but farther than that, the science
Speaker 1: is a bit beyond me. Yeah, I think it's a
Speaker 1: beyond everybody because the problem with that is is that
Speaker 1: you're working there, even if you're a super expert on
Speaker 1: this stuff, you're still working with very fragmentary evidence. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and and here this will actually bring us into the
Speaker 1: next thing that we've got for the of his theory,
Speaker 1: which is problems with it because if we think that
Speaker 1: whatever people it was came across the land bridge around
Speaker 1: twelve thousand years ago, that means that in a thousand
Speaker 1: years they had managed to hit had all the way south,
Speaker 1: populate that whole area, and then spread east into the
Speaker 1: eastern seaboard of the continental US and then go up,
Speaker 1: which is a really fast migration in my mind. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: because although there there are there are answers that they're
Speaker 1: theories that explain that too. Right, Well, there there are
Speaker 1: some theories that there is. But here's here's another issue
Speaker 1: with the clothes first theory or the clothes people theory,
Speaker 1: is in there was a bunch of authorities, I'm assuming
Speaker 1: these archaeological authorities. I'm not exactly sure who those authorities were,
Speaker 1: but they inspected Monte Verde, which is in Chili. It's
Speaker 1: a site in Chili, and that site had signs of
Speaker 1: human settlement and it was dated at fourteen thousand, eight
Speaker 1: hundred years ago, which is an issue because if these
Speaker 1: people came across the land bridge somewhere between thirteen to
Speaker 1: eleven thousand years ago, then how the heck did they
Speaker 1: get all the way south two thousand years earlier? So
Speaker 1: there's a big issue with that, I get. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess part of the problem here is this whole
Speaker 1: like we can only rely on radio carbon dating so much.
Speaker 1: We've talked about this on other episodes, and I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not it's not that it's a really flawed,
Speaker 1: but our ability to date things has to get better sometimes.
Speaker 1: And the problem with it is it's got a plus
Speaker 1: minus and minus can be yeah, and it's just you know,
Speaker 1: so it's hard to tell what these sort of things
Speaker 1: where you know, you say, well this one was four
Speaker 1: hundred years ago, and they wouldn't like that pre dates
Speaker 1: these other people by a thousand, like a couple of thousand,
Speaker 1: a couple of thousand years, But like, what's the plus
Speaker 1: or minus on it? You know, do they is there
Speaker 1: a sizeable overlap? There? Is It a little shocking to
Speaker 1: think that like people could have you know, settled that
Speaker 1: much area in that amount of time. Sure, but like
Speaker 1: they were prolific, like our ancestors were prolific, and they
Speaker 1: would have been mobile, they would have been having there
Speaker 1: was a lot of stuff, right, I mean, like there
Speaker 1: was a lot of stuff for them to eat. That
Speaker 1: was a lot of new stuff for them to hunt
Speaker 1: and explore, and a lot of game that wasn't used
Speaker 1: to human beings and that they could kill quite easily.
Speaker 1: They had an area out they'd move on and so
Speaker 1: and who knows, maybe they arrived twenty thousand years ago
Speaker 1: and they had another five thousand, a whole five thousand
Speaker 1: years to migrate all the way to the southern theory.
Speaker 1: But I just want to like mention as a reminder
Speaker 1: this whole like radiocarbon dating thing is like we rely
Speaker 1: on it a lot with stories like this, but it's
Speaker 1: not necessary. It's not the end all be all. And
Speaker 1: here's here's another another wrench to throw in the works
Speaker 1: when it comes to using radiocarbon dating. Is there is
Speaker 1: there's a place that's called the Topper. It's an archaeological
Speaker 1: site that's uh, it's on the Savannah River near Allendale,
Speaker 1: South Carolina and there's an archaeologist. His archaeologist his name
Speaker 1: is Dr Albert Goodyear. I don't believe he's related to
Speaker 1: the tire company. But he found charcoal material that is
Speaker 1: supposedly in relation to human artifacts, and that charcoal material
Speaker 1: was dated at fifty thousand years before the president. I
Speaker 1: just like that's something is like rocks, right, Charcoal is
Speaker 1: like you know, it's created by burning woods. So I
Speaker 1: knows it could have maybe people burn the campfire there
Speaker 1: or maybe that was just a forest fire. Sorry, And
Speaker 1: that's what a lot of people say. And that's why
Speaker 1: this guy's his claim isn't really really considered valid. He
Speaker 1: does live in South Carolina. No offense to all of
Speaker 1: our South Carolina. Well, let's let's bring it back to
Speaker 1: a little bit of a little bit in our area.
Speaker 1: This was two thousand two and two thousand three human
Speaker 1: copper lights I believe I'm saying that correct, which is
Speaker 1: fossilized feces. Uh. It was foul along with hunting tools.
Speaker 1: It was found in Paisley Caves, which is in southern
Speaker 1: central Oregon, which is kind of a desert region. Found
Speaker 1: in those caves and it was dated to be as
Speaker 1: much as twelve d years before the clothes should have
Speaker 1: even been in or on this continent. So again, problems,
Speaker 1: there's problems with this which and I bring the clothes
Speaker 1: first because they followed directly in line with the land bridge. There,
Speaker 1: go ahead. Now, let's just go ahead and go through
Speaker 1: other stuff talking about the fast migration now, aren't we. Well,
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about other migrations. Uh, here's our next one,
Speaker 1: which is uh it's called Pacific coastal models. Okay, let
Speaker 1: me So there's a lot of words on this page,
Speaker 1: but let me just go ahead and see if I
Speaker 1: can sum this up in simple language, because this is
Speaker 1: a lot of science talk. Basically, what this theory says
Speaker 1: is that during the recession of the glaciers, people actually
Speaker 1: knew how to make boats of some kind, and they
Speaker 1: use those boats to travel down the coastlines of the continent.
Speaker 1: So they didn't go necessarily across the land bridge, but
Speaker 1: maybe they skirted it in boats hunting and getting any um,
Speaker 1: any vegetation that they could eat, and then they would
Speaker 1: be able to make their way down. That would make
Speaker 1: it much faster because you're always heading south. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is that it gets you
Speaker 1: around obstructions and things like that. It's not all solid,
Speaker 1: but you don't have to climb a mountain. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can just float around it. You're you've got access to
Speaker 1: you know, let's say sea turtles, and then there sweeds
Speaker 1: on the on the banks and then you hunt a
Speaker 1: couple of deer or masked dawn or whatever there tigers
Speaker 1: to take you out in the process exactly. Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: floating on the water and everybody saber tooth, tighter boat
Speaker 1: boat boat, but of course, and they could have had dugouts,
Speaker 1: they could have had like skin both made out of
Speaker 1: skins or whatever. Um. And then nice thing about skirting
Speaker 1: the coast is it's it's like nice and directed and
Speaker 1: the heavy weather sets in, you can just high tail
Speaker 1: out to the shore or pull your boats up exactly so.
Speaker 1: And that explains this whole thing, helps explain how these
Speaker 1: people could have made it so far south so fast,
Speaker 1: which is really kind of one of the issues with
Speaker 1: the Clovis theory. And again they're they're able to use
Speaker 1: the ecosystems that are both marine and land based. And
Speaker 1: it also you know, explains how they got so far
Speaker 1: south from the burying straight to what would be places
Speaker 1: like I talked. We talked about a little bit which
Speaker 1: is Monteverde, which is in southern Chile. And there's another
Speaker 1: location which is in western Venezuela, which I believe is
Speaker 1: tim A Timer. I might be incorrectly pronouncing that, but
Speaker 1: both of those places have stuff that's there that's been dated,
Speaker 1: as we said before, at about fourteen thousand years before
Speaker 1: the present there. And this is stuff that's like the
Speaker 1: remains of seaweed that was collected from out in the water,
Speaker 1: and then there's human habitation remains. There's evidently another layer
Speaker 1: there that has been dated at thirty three thousand years ago.
Speaker 1: Now that thirty three thousand years bit that hasn't been
Speaker 1: widely accepted, but somebody has put that out again. I
Speaker 1: got to bring it up because it it makes you
Speaker 1: wonder if they could have come earlier, because said it's
Speaker 1: getting the glaciers didn't just expand and sit. They expanded
Speaker 1: and they contracted back and forth, so it could have
Speaker 1: been exposing bits of land to let people get down
Speaker 1: and make their landings upon. Uh. And and there's there's
Speaker 1: a guy he's from is it the University of Oregon
Speaker 1: or Oregon State. Right. Well, you know the problem is,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't remember which one. His name is
Speaker 1: John Arenson, Thank you, Joe, and he described it as
Speaker 1: the Kelp highway hypothesis. And the short version of that
Speaker 1: is that there's kelp on the coast and then as
Speaker 1: the bearing straight becomes available, kelp is able to grow there.
Speaker 1: And these people are using kelp because that's a habitat
Speaker 1: that if you look at kelp today, fish, things like
Speaker 1: otters and seals live in it. So we've got the
Speaker 1: prehistory version of those in them this game. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: there's all this food material for people to get through,
Speaker 1: and once they had made it into the I believe
Speaker 1: the phrases degalaciated areas of British Columbia and the America's,
Speaker 1: they could then just high tail itself. And he actually
Speaker 1: says that that may have happened somewhere around sixteen thousand
Speaker 1: years ago. Now, there's some stuff about why people don't
Speaker 1: like this theory, and this actually falls into a couple
Speaker 1: of other theories that we're going to go into, but
Speaker 1: I just want to briefly touch on it. People don't
Speaker 1: buy into these theories because what is the one thing
Speaker 1: that we have not found boats. We haven't found a
Speaker 1: single boat. Okay, well, there's there's two reasons for that.
Speaker 1: In my mind. Is either one their boats that are
Speaker 1: made out of hide the long sense to cecate, they
Speaker 1: have long since disintegrated, or if they are wooden boats
Speaker 1: and they fell apart after use at sea or on
Speaker 1: the banks. We need to remember that when the ice receded,
Speaker 1: the sea levels rose a couple of hundred meters, anywhere
Speaker 1: from one to two. So now we're looking at sites
Speaker 1: that were coastal sites that are several hundred feet underwater.
Speaker 1: And it would be so cool. I think it's actually
Speaker 1: map the sea bottom. You could actually probably trace, you know,
Speaker 1: roughly where the coastline was way back then. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I just send down powerful machinery to just rip everything
Speaker 1: out of the seafloor and see what you get anything.
Speaker 1: That's a great idea. Yeah. Actually, but actually we'll talk
Speaker 1: about this later. Of course, there is there is one
Speaker 1: powerful machine that's just that, and it brought up some
Speaker 1: archaeological evidence. We're talking that you are nothing but a tease.
Speaker 1: This episode, I've noticed he just keeps dropping things like that.
Speaker 1: I well, I was gonna just say that. Like, you know,
Speaker 1: if you as a culture, you've been a boat culture
Speaker 1: for a while, right, and you like make land and
Speaker 1: you're like, all right, we're moving inland. This looks like
Speaker 1: a great place. We're going to stay here. What do
Speaker 1: you take your boat and you reuse it? Yeah, it
Speaker 1: doesn't because we haven't found a boat, like one single
Speaker 1: canoe or whatever it was. That doesn't mean that they
Speaker 1: didn't exist, because I mean, you know, if you've got
Speaker 1: a really well tanned hide that's like survived for a
Speaker 1: really long time, super waterproof, you're not going to just
Speaker 1: like leave it. You're gonna take it with you. Is like,
Speaker 1: I mean, if you decide to go inland and you
Speaker 1: decided just to band your boat, Well, what happens that
Speaker 1: at the ocean a sea coast, is that things deteriorate
Speaker 1: more rapidly than in inland. Well, let's also take a
Speaker 1: look at boats that wooden boats and I mean by
Speaker 1: full on wooden hulled boats that have sunk that we
Speaker 1: have found hundreds of years later. They're barely there. Sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know, even in the best of cases, it's not
Speaker 1: perfectly there. Now we're talking about thousands of years, So
Speaker 1: no wonder that we can't find that record. So I'm
Speaker 1: not bothered by the fact that we haven't found boats. Absolutely. Uh.
Speaker 1: So we've got we've got kind of a related theory here,
Speaker 1: and it's uh. I believe the way they've got it's
Speaker 1: titled from all the research that it did is it's
Speaker 1: the the Paleo Indians of the coast from the Asia's Okay, Okay,
Speaker 1: And this is again, this is another boat theory. Okay.
Speaker 1: This says that people from the coastline of the Creel Islands.
Speaker 1: I believe I'm pronouncing that right. Again, this is full
Speaker 1: of words. I don't know. But these islands are on
Speaker 1: Southeast Asia and Japan. Uh. And then they extend north
Speaker 1: across the Asian continent, and eventually, if that bearing strait
Speaker 1: happened to be exposed, they would then run all the
Speaker 1: way into Alaska and down to the coast. So they
Speaker 1: were basically again skirting that area. That kind of actually
Speaker 1: is an extension of the previous theory. Yeah, it really
Speaker 1: is the thing about this is and Joe, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you can pronounce this better than I. Is
Speaker 1: it the Hyda or Hayda nation. I have no idea
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with I'm gonna go with Hyda Nation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is a coin flip for us unfortunately. Uh. These
Speaker 1: are the people's of the Queen Charlotte Islands, which are
Speaker 1: at Bridge in Britdige, Columbia. Uh. And they believe eve
Speaker 1: that they may have originated from Asian mariner cultures. And
Speaker 1: they have said that they believe they may have been
Speaker 1: there from anywhere from twenty five to twelve thousand years ago,
Speaker 1: which if you look at some of the their their navigation,
Speaker 1: and if it's that long ago, that would explain why
Speaker 1: we see human habitation in places in South America. We've
Speaker 1: got a place called pick A Machai Cave is pick
Speaker 1: A Machi I'm gonna go with, which is in Peru
Speaker 1: Um and then again Monteverde and pick A Macha. I
Speaker 1: I don't know why I said that a third time,
Speaker 1: but evidently that's supposedly twenty thousand years ago. Uh So,
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's quite possible that they just as
Speaker 1: we said before, we're just skirting the coast and heading south.
Speaker 1: And again, I think we talked about this a little bit,
Speaker 1: but I just can't see people walking that far in
Speaker 1: groups over the course of a thousand years just seems
Speaker 1: really far to live. Your people's living their life on
Speaker 1: the go to have made it through all that territory,
Speaker 1: and and a thousand years, I don't know, A thousand
Speaker 1: years is a long time. Most people are not going
Speaker 1: to keep walking and walking and walking. They've gotta find
Speaker 1: a really good spot and they're gonna settle there, right,
Speaker 1: And so they may be migratory people's that move around,
Speaker 1: but they have a range. So that's why I have
Speaker 1: a problem with It's not as if they just said
Speaker 1: we're always going this direction. So that's that's my difficulty
Speaker 1: with it. Well, it could have been, it could have
Speaker 1: been to that if there were, it depends on how
Speaker 1: many people were crossing the land ridge and vibrating over
Speaker 1: because as you know, and this is kind of I
Speaker 1: think typical as Stone Age people, they formed tribes, and
Speaker 1: of course every tribe hates the other tribe and does
Speaker 1: everything I can't do murder the other tribe at that
Speaker 1: other tribe like crosses into its hunting territory. So there's
Speaker 1: a lot of disputes. So if you have a bigger
Speaker 1: and more aggressive try pushing it behind you. You You might
Speaker 1: want to have some you might have some pressure to
Speaker 1: migrate south. On the other hand, if you're just new
Speaker 1: that you know, fresh out, fresh out the boat, and
Speaker 1: you're and and there's this big hostile tribe, you might
Speaker 1: want to skirt them, go around them, and migrate further
Speaker 1: south so that slows everybody down getting it. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: think about trying people. People walk across this country, and
Speaker 1: they walk on highways, and it's still not an easy process.
Speaker 1: Now think about a tribe of fifty sixty people packing
Speaker 1: their gear and there's no roads. That's not an easy trek,
Speaker 1: and you're looking for food the whole time. I gotta
Speaker 1: tell you, I And one reason I liked the boat
Speaker 1: theory is I've seen not just the coastline I've been.
Speaker 1: I've been all up and down the coast of the
Speaker 1: western United States and also a bit of Canada. And
Speaker 1: the coast in Canada, for example, is basically mountains plunging
Speaker 1: straight into the ocean. Um, you know, in the absence
Speaker 1: of roads. You know, I can't imagine what that what
Speaker 1: that would be like to try to traverse that, but
Speaker 1: it'll be it'll be hideous. Well, and I think a
Speaker 1: thousand years isn't as long as we think it is, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, in the scope of our human
Speaker 1: time span on Earth. Yeah, it is a long time,
Speaker 1: but it is a thousand years really long enough for
Speaker 1: enough tribes to be dissatisfied enough to like at least
Speaker 1: well populate an area that is to the south tip
Speaker 1: of South America. It seems like it seems to me
Speaker 1: like they weren't that many people pouring into the country
Speaker 1: that there wasn't lots and lots of room. Just remember
Speaker 1: the land bridge overflowed with water again, so it was
Speaker 1: a very limited time span for people to continually pour it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and I think, I mean boats were kind
Speaker 1: of like beating this, yeah, a little bit. But you know,
Speaker 1: boats make sense also just in terms of like being
Speaker 1: able to say, let's keep going. I don't know, this
Speaker 1: place is kind of nice, but let's keep going. And
Speaker 1: then like it starts to get bad again and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I guess we'll just stay here. Yeah. Yeah, it's not
Speaker 1: that you could look at but absolutely, let's let's move on. Yes,
Speaker 1: we have another one. And this is the atlant Coastal model,
Speaker 1: is what it's referred to. And this it's the sal
Speaker 1: you tree in people's is what tree. I actually had
Speaker 1: to do a bunch of research to make sure how
Speaker 1: to say this. This is the one word I figured
Speaker 1: out how to say. Yeah. So there's two archaeologists. There's
Speaker 1: a guy by the name of Dennis Stanford and his
Speaker 1: cohort is Bruce bag Badgeley bradleyogists walk into a box
Speaker 1: Bradley uh. And they've really been advocating this Atlantic Route theory.
Speaker 1: And and by the way, I am still in the
Speaker 1: process of reading their book. The book is called Across
Speaker 1: Atlantic Ice. I really highly recommend it for anybody who's
Speaker 1: into this kind of prehistory. It's it lays out some
Speaker 1: good arguments and it's really interesting. It's a very academic book,
Speaker 1: so it take me a while to get through, and
Speaker 1: I think I might have a late feed the library
Speaker 1: version of this book. I'm afraid not. So here's how
Speaker 1: it goes. The Salutrian hypothesis. This is based on evidence
Speaker 1: that comes from the clothes people. But what they're doing
Speaker 1: is instead of tracing the Clovis tool making style to
Speaker 1: the Siberian region, they're actually linking it to an area
Speaker 1: in the what it was the Ice Age Western Europe
Speaker 1: that is the Salutrean culture. Okay, so they have a
Speaker 1: very similar way of working stone. So they're napping stone,
Speaker 1: they're flaking it, they're making by face stones. But the
Speaker 1: difference is is that where the Clovis kind of had
Speaker 1: the bottom of the point was flattened off, the Salutrians
Speaker 1: had it more of a tapered point. If you think
Speaker 1: of almost like a diamond elongated. It's like if you
Speaker 1: think of a dagger blade, it's like it's they look
Speaker 1: kind of like a double ended dagger blade, exact two
Speaker 1: points to it. Yeah, that's a that's a good way
Speaker 1: to to to describe, which is one of the things
Speaker 1: I was I was wondering about it because when I
Speaker 1: look at the slight tree and slight tree and flint's points,
Speaker 1: they don't look that similar to the clubs points. To me,
Speaker 1: I agree with that actually looking looking at them right
Speaker 1: now in fact on my phone. Here's here's what's what's
Speaker 1: so hard about this when they look at the napping style,
Speaker 1: the stone napping style that is done and the flaking
Speaker 1: and again I'm gonna do my best to explain this
Speaker 1: without pictures, but there's a way that you can take
Speaker 1: a piece of stone, and you can put it against
Speaker 1: another one and push, and instead of just making a
Speaker 1: shard come off the side, you can actually crack it
Speaker 1: and roll it in a circular fashion so that remember
Speaker 1: the by face, it goes from one face, rolls and
Speaker 1: makes a rounded shape and then pops off the other side.
Speaker 1: And that that that way of making these tools was
Speaker 1: very indicative for a long time of the Clovis people.
Speaker 1: But they've seen that same style in the Solutrean people's stones.
Speaker 1: I just I guess I feel like and nobody else
Speaker 1: was doing that. Yeah, okay, maybe I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: just like, uh, to think that only one culture of
Speaker 1: people's could ever develop this technology on their own, independent
Speaker 1: of each other. It is kind of like a little
Speaker 1: bit of hubris, right well, And that's one of the
Speaker 1: things that I I had put in my notes is
Speaker 1: I wonder if synchronicity is that the word that I
Speaker 1: think of, But there's another word where two or three
Speaker 1: people all come up with the same idea right around
Speaker 1: the same time. I mean, you know, it's this whole
Speaker 1: like the argument that agient ufologists use, like for the
Speaker 1: whole alien thing, right is, oh, well, all these pyramids
Speaker 1: started cropping up at the same time. It's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: because like people were evolving at the same time, and
Speaker 1: like people are people, and yeah, we have different ideas
Speaker 1: about things sometimes, but like culturally you kind of just
Speaker 1: evolved these ideas and you make pyramids and they look
Speaker 1: a little different and you have like slightly different techniques.
Speaker 1: But it's the thing that a culture develops because we
Speaker 1: are all humans and we are are very similar. Despite
Speaker 1: you know, what you were told as a child that
Speaker 1: you're like a unique snowflake. You're not. You're a human being,
Speaker 1: and like you have the same thoughts that everybody else
Speaker 1: does and you go through the same things. And so
Speaker 1: for me, it's that sort of thing where it's just like, Okay, yes,
Speaker 1: on the one hand, it is a little odd, but
Speaker 1: on the other hand, it's not that weird because because actually,
Speaker 1: when you think about it too, there's only so many
Speaker 1: ways to make an arrowhead a spirace. Yeah, so and
Speaker 1: I think we've exhausted them all. Yeah, And and that's
Speaker 1: the thing that that the one weird thing is that
Speaker 1: there is such a huge distance gap because that style
Speaker 1: is seen in the Clovis and it's seen in the Salutrian,
Speaker 1: but it is not seen in anywhere in Asia or
Speaker 1: the Siberia regions around the same time. So it's it's
Speaker 1: independent on a continental scale, which is what they're pointing out. Now,
Speaker 1: I understand that. I just want to bring that out
Speaker 1: because there are some things that that kind of shoot
Speaker 1: some holes in this theory. Well, I guess I'll just
Speaker 1: like point out again that if it is in fact
Speaker 1: even a continental thing, right, is that, Well, then maybe
Speaker 1: that has more to do with the way that the
Speaker 1: stone in the United States or the like continent of
Speaker 1: America breaks than the stone and your I mean, I
Speaker 1: believe is the general name of the stone wrong on
Speaker 1: that that stone does come up in different areas. It's
Speaker 1: naturally occurring. Yeah, So I don't know it. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: very hard to say. Detractors of this theory they point
Speaker 1: out at well, there's about a five thousand year gap
Speaker 1: between the two cultures. That's a bit of a problem
Speaker 1: saying that. So they documented the salute in people in Europe,
Speaker 1: and they were exactly when they were about five thousand
Speaker 1: years different, and I believe it's before the Clovis. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and now I might have that the I might have
Speaker 1: that flip flopped, and it might be that the Clovis
Speaker 1: were first and the Solutreans were second, but I don't
Speaker 1: believe that would have led this theory to come out.
Speaker 1: So I've got to say that the Solutreans were first
Speaker 1: and they were in Europe. So this theory. The way
Speaker 1: this theory is going is just to kind of before
Speaker 1: we get into the detraction side of it is it's
Speaker 1: kind of the same as people coming from the Asian
Speaker 1: continent through Siberia. Is there instead saying well, these guys
Speaker 1: came up and they went they floated along on the
Speaker 1: ice sheets, and they went through what would be Greenland
Speaker 1: in Iceland and then got into Canada and work their
Speaker 1: way south into the American continent, hunting and finding whatever
Speaker 1: they could in those areas because there's gonna be critters
Speaker 1: that are still going to live in those marine ecosystems.
Speaker 1: People have said, well, you know what, it would be
Speaker 1: freezing cold and it's very wet. If you're a marines culture,
Speaker 1: you've got a maritime culture, you've got to be able
Speaker 1: to waterproof yourself, and we don't see any evidence of that,
Speaker 1: which we've talked about with the boats. The same thing
Speaker 1: I think that evidence would have disappeared by this time.
Speaker 1: But yeah, the thing about this, the people that put
Speaker 1: this seri forth basically said that they skirted the edge
Speaker 1: of the ice sheet during the ice Age, and the
Speaker 1: way I see it, before the ice age, they could
Speaker 1: have actually made their migration. I don't know, if you've
Speaker 1: looked at a map of the North, it's quite possible.
Speaker 1: They're saying, they're kind of playing in a gray air.
Speaker 1: You can hop from like say, say Britain to Iceland,
Speaker 1: or say Scandinavia to Iceland. It's not that far apart,
Speaker 1: and then from there to Greenland is not. No, you're
Speaker 1: absolutely You're absolutely right. And I'm not saying that they
Speaker 1: were literally paddling alongside a glacier. Yeah, but you're looking
Speaker 1: for a put that for the fourth and yeah, and
Speaker 1: I think they probably did it under you know, probably
Speaker 1: earlier in time. And that's one of the things people
Speaker 1: bash on this theory about. They also go back to
Speaker 1: that DNA evidence, which shows that, as they've talked about before,
Speaker 1: there's no European UH signs in that DNA from it's
Speaker 1: the mitochondrial DNA. And there's a term that they throw
Speaker 1: around which is called and this is going to be
Speaker 1: important if everybody wants to go out and do the reading,
Speaker 1: because this will help you a lot, because it took
Speaker 1: me a long time to figure it out. Is they
Speaker 1: will use the term apple group, happ group group. I
Speaker 1: cannot say words today that are scientific. Basically, what that
Speaker 1: means is that is people who descend from a common ancestor.
Speaker 1: This is what they do the testing for these days.
Speaker 1: When you like say, oh, the son of a son
Speaker 1: is going to like do the mouth swab and then
Speaker 1: people attracted. That's that's basically yes, in a very simplified version. Yes,
Speaker 1: over thousands of crazy science. The only way I can
Speaker 1: even like mildly comprehend it is by like simplifying it
Speaker 1: to the lowest common the same thing. Yeah. So here's now,
Speaker 1: remember I talked about Stanford and Bradley. They came right
Speaker 1: back with a bunch of issues to throw at the
Speaker 1: land Bridge theory that we talked about in the beginning culture. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's actually some really good points that they bring up.
Speaker 1: The first of which is the in the middle of
Speaker 1: what I say, it's just going to be a frigging
Speaker 1: coal Yeah. So you're in the northern Hemisphere. Why would
Speaker 1: you be in the north and at the high summers
Speaker 1: it's like sixty degrees. Uh. Second of all, what do
Speaker 1: we see in terms of light cycles in the northern hemisphere?
Speaker 1: We go from days of dark to two days of
Speaker 1: light and then back. I don't know of a culture
Speaker 1: moving through there that would be able to stand that
Speaker 1: just freshly coming into that. Do you see where I'm heading? Shock?
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, like if if we're going to
Speaker 1: just for argument's sake, like if they were living in Siberia,
Speaker 1: they were pretty freaking used to yeah, you know, like
Speaker 1: they were used to the freezing cold, they were used
Speaker 1: to the weird light cycles. And people currently in this
Speaker 1: entire like in this day and age, live in areas
Speaker 1: like that. That's very true, you know, granted, like we
Speaker 1: have better technology, but it's not like they moved there
Speaker 1: after the technology existed. They've lived there forever. And so
Speaker 1: I guess to play a little bit. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I appreciate Devil's advocate on that. But here's the other
Speaker 1: thing that they bring up that I really had never
Speaker 1: thought of, which is when the land bridge emerge from
Speaker 1: the water, it was gonna be mud. It was gonna
Speaker 1: be mucky. Grant, it wasn't gonna be hard packed that
Speaker 1: was easy to walk on. It's gonna be marshy. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be boggy. And how in the world are you
Speaker 1: gonna walk through that chasing game? Game aren't gonna go
Speaker 1: through that easily. It's gonna take a long for that
Speaker 1: to dry out. Well, not just dry out, but actually
Speaker 1: a game aren't gonna go there because there's nothing for
Speaker 1: them to eat. Plants start growing there and that's gonna
Speaker 1: take a while. Yeah. And and then there's the other thing,
Speaker 1: another thing they brought up, which is in that region,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be the first thing that comes in those
Speaker 1: marshy environments is the insects, which are like no sums
Speaker 1: and mosquitoes and that kind. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just, again,
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like a place that I would say, hey, family,
Speaker 1: let's go truck through that bog and see what's on
Speaker 1: the other side. Hopefully we make out again. I understand
Speaker 1: I'm simplifying, but these are things that I see that
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, true, you know, I would think that
Speaker 1: the thing that would cause that is not the great
Speaker 1: old spirit of exploration, but pressures either from competitive tribes
Speaker 1: that want to slaughter you number one or two. You've
Speaker 1: killed off all the game in your area, you need
Speaker 1: to migrate to go find somewhere else to hunt. Well,
Speaker 1: but as you said, like, it's not super likely that
Speaker 1: that's how things are migrating to the America's anyways. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not like a bunch of wooly mammoths
Speaker 1: are going to be like, oh yeah, mud, Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: going to lumber through that. There's no food, this is
Speaker 1: where we're going. Well, that's not gonna happen. I don't know.
Speaker 1: A movie Hey Suley or whatever his name was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're not going to do that. They're not. I mean,
Speaker 1: if there's not food there, they're not going to go there.
Speaker 1: And there's not food there, so why I mean there
Speaker 1: would be food there in a relatively quick time. I
Speaker 1: think that probably, but not heard. Yeah, I guess not
Speaker 1: definitely not enough to sustain a herd large enough to
Speaker 1: warrant following. Yeah, I don't think it would have taken
Speaker 1: like a thousand years, but even a couple of hundred,
Speaker 1: like they would take a while. That puts a ding
Speaker 1: in the timeline. Yeah, it does. I mean, that's a
Speaker 1: very good point that they make, though. Yeah, ears one
Speaker 1: of the pieces of evidence that really sparked the whole
Speaker 1: solutrey in people hypothesis. This happened in ninety four. There's
Speaker 1: guys fishing, and I believe they were drag netting, and
Speaker 1: they were outside of Chesapeake Bay. There were ways off
Speaker 1: shore there are a couple of hundred feet they're dragging
Speaker 1: a couple hundred feet down and they hit something really
Speaker 1: big and heavy and they hauled it up and it
Speaker 1: turned out to be a mastodon skull. Very cool, but
Speaker 1: it was too big and heavy for them to actually
Speaker 1: log all the way back to shore. So what they
Speaker 1: did is they cut off parts of the tusk and
Speaker 1: parts of the teeth and gave them everybody on the
Speaker 1: boat as souvenirs, and then they chucked it back over board.
Speaker 1: Wasn't there like a stone tool in it or something
Speaker 1: that was stuck in part of the I believe it
Speaker 1: was the tusk and was stuck and they took it,
Speaker 1: and they took it. The people was stuck at it.
Speaker 1: They didn't know what the hell, but they could have
Speaker 1: just chucked it back into Eventually, the people who had
Speaker 1: it donated it, and that's how people figured out. Okay,
Speaker 1: can I just say one thing, these guys were bone
Speaker 1: heads because even yeah, even if you don't have room
Speaker 1: on your boat and you can't handle the way to
Speaker 1: the skull, what you do is you're in a couple
Speaker 1: hundred feet of water. You tie a rope a couple
Speaker 1: of hundred feet long with a buoy on the other
Speaker 1: end of it to the skull so you can come
Speaker 1: back and get it. Hello. If they realize what they
Speaker 1: dick it back in the net and drag it behind you,
Speaker 1: like not super deep and you're fine, skull you're going
Speaker 1: to throw it back in. No, No, I'm not an idiot.
Speaker 1: Yeah there, Yeah, well anyway, but yeah, and and this
Speaker 1: is an interesting thing because a couple hundred feet down
Speaker 1: that's about where the ancient coastline used to be. Yea,
Speaker 1: And now, yeah, that's exactly the point is that, as
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, we could start exploring that ancient coastline
Speaker 1: down there. And even it's not just one coastline that
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the sea level has been rising
Speaker 1: for thousands of years. So anywhere between a couple hundred
Speaker 1: feet down and shoreline, you're going to find artifacts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but those are hard to find now because they're under
Speaker 1: sentiment and mud and mud and feet down and yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously you know, we can't go down and just ripping
Speaker 1: up the sea floor. I mean it, but it probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't be good for the sea life. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: And we're going to move on from the Salutrians. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's there's been other evidence that have that have shown
Speaker 1: that maybe people were doing these marine lifestyles, the mariners
Speaker 1: so to speak. Yeah, I mean there's there's things that
Speaker 1: are outside of the Channel Islands in californ Warnia that
Speaker 1: are showing evidence of artifacts that are from like ten
Speaker 1: thousand BC. There's all these things, and people keep saying
Speaker 1: that there could have been possible failed colonization. And that's
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I want to get into because
Speaker 1: that that kind of comes into my final thoughts about
Speaker 1: this whole thing, well, actually a bit the whole offer
Speaker 1: a second. The Salutrians the one word I can say tonight. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's actually a few people believed that they migrate it here,
Speaker 1: and a lot of other scientists believe that no, they
Speaker 1: never ever did right. Correct, correct. People couldn't see me
Speaker 1: shaking my head I had to say something, Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: it's not like that. But but again, this mastodon skull
Speaker 1: was pulled up with the saw essentially kind of a
Speaker 1: slutree and spear point, and it was dated at twenty
Speaker 1: two years Yeah, exactly. So that so, you know, the
Speaker 1: little credence to the theory, Uh, it really does. And here,
Speaker 1: but I guess that's also like fair to say that
Speaker 1: neither none of these theories necessitate mutual exclusivity. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think we're sorry, am I jumping ahead? No? No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, is that I think we've said,
Speaker 1: is that the problem is all these dates we're working
Speaker 1: with are soft. Yeah, they're really soft, and it's hard
Speaker 1: to say. I mean it's hard to say, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's totally possible that like the Salutrians came over and
Speaker 1: tried to colonize and we have like all of the
Speaker 1: information they like survived for a couple hud couple of
Speaker 1: thousand years and then just died out. Love. His culture
Speaker 1: was more robust. They were going down the you know,
Speaker 1: sailing down the whole shore, and they colonized and they
Speaker 1: were way more and they are actually kind of what
Speaker 1: the true natives are now, you know, I think it's
Speaker 1: there's just so many different like well, it could be
Speaker 1: a mix of this and this and this, given that,
Speaker 1: given that what what things were back in those days.
Speaker 1: I think if the Salutrians came over and then said
Speaker 1: the closed people showed up and wanted and they would
Speaker 1: have exterminated the Slutrians too, And this always a possibility.
Speaker 1: That's and that's one of my things I was gonna
Speaker 1: get it is, yeah, war they could have literally wiped
Speaker 1: them out and or enslaved them. And my enslavement, I
Speaker 1: mean truly did not breed. Again, I talked about this before.
Speaker 1: There was no interbreeding, almost no interbreeding enough that that
Speaker 1: that gene pool can't be detected. There's also the possibility
Speaker 1: that and this is out there and I know I'm
Speaker 1: completely making this up, but I'm just you know, my
Speaker 1: brain was spinning on this story. It's possible that these
Speaker 1: cultures met and as we said, we've got the master
Speaker 1: slave relationship, or we could have the god and worshiper relationship,
Speaker 1: where one culture shows up and they are so dominant
Speaker 1: and they somehow key into a culture that that other
Speaker 1: culture is subservient and therefore they just never stay in
Speaker 1: the gene pool. It's also possible that, I mean, nobody's
Speaker 1: ever talked about this. What if what are these cultures
Speaker 1: practiced some form of cremation. We've we've never seen that.
Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking, is like they haven't found remains.
Speaker 1: There's there's a couple of things. I mean, the silu Trians.
Speaker 1: We've never found any DNA evidence that they are we're
Speaker 1: actually here because there's no European d But what you're
Speaker 1: what you're talking about is absolutely correct. I mean a
Speaker 1: lot of cultures, like say India, for example, they burned corpses.
Speaker 1: But there's another thing there, and I have two words.
Speaker 1: There's two words here. Kennewick Man. Have you heard You've
Speaker 1: heard of Ken? Yeah, so kenne wic Man found just
Speaker 1: very recently along the shores of the Columbia River, not
Speaker 1: that far away and Kennawick near Kennewick, Washington is apparently
Speaker 1: from the shape of the skull and the facial features
Speaker 1: and everything, anthropologists have decided that he was not at
Speaker 1: all related to any any American Indians. He was probably
Speaker 1: most likely from a Polynesian island, and so that would
Speaker 1: that would evidence to me indications of a migration not
Speaker 1: just from eastern Siberia, but also from Polynesia or from
Speaker 1: perhaps the people who went on to populate Polynesia, because
Speaker 1: of course Polynesia was populated by people from the Eurasian
Speaker 1: land mass. So you're so Kenotic man, let me finished,
Speaker 1: knic Man was obviously completely different from the great majority
Speaker 1: of the Native Americans that we have found here. It
Speaker 1: is virtually impossible that he migrated all the way from
Speaker 1: by himself. In other words, in other words, it's very
Speaker 1: likely there was a mass migration of his people, his
Speaker 1: not just his tiny tribe, but a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: people from that area to North America, and they eventually
Speaker 1: died out. And of all that population, how many skeletons
Speaker 1: have we found exactly one? Exactly one, And so yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that supports to me. That's how your theory a
Speaker 1: little bit, I think. I also think there's a lot
Speaker 1: too like percentages, right if like of the DNA pool
Speaker 1: is Clovis and one percent or ten per is salt salt.
Speaker 1: I'm having a hard time because there's a doctor who
Speaker 1: raised called salt salt tarans. I'm having a very hard time.
Speaker 1: I'm trying really hard to keep it together. Sorry, but
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, if if you've got your like
Speaker 1: smaller group relatively of people who have colonized the East coast,
Speaker 1: the Clovis culture finally makes over there, they realize like, okay,
Speaker 1: maybe they like slaughter most of the people or not
Speaker 1: all of them. But even if you start breeding, if
Speaker 1: there's only like ten percent of the population over like,
Speaker 1: however many number of generations, which would be a high
Speaker 1: number of generations. If you're mostly breeding with Clovis culture,
Speaker 1: people that like that DNA is essentially going to disappear.
Speaker 1: It doesn't like substain itself. I mean, there's no way
Speaker 1: our DNA testing is not so advanced that we could
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, oh yeah, and there's this one percent
Speaker 1: that's unidentified. We don't know. It doesn't matter, I mean,
Speaker 1: and that also would help what you're talking about is
Speaker 1: saying that the solid trains were there and then there
Speaker 1: was some interbreeding. That would help explain why the people's
Speaker 1: of the eastern seaboard of the America's of the of
Speaker 1: the United States kind of funny compared to the words.
Speaker 1: They are on a genetic level slightly different than the
Speaker 1: people's from the western coast. But the people from the
Speaker 1: western coast are very very similar to the people of
Speaker 1: the South America. So that tells you that there's a
Speaker 1: divergence somewhere and there's gotta been some introduction of something different, right,
Speaker 1: That's that's so I I totally agree with that. I
Speaker 1: totally agree with Joe that it just cracks me up
Speaker 1: that all the academics are fighting fighting over it is
Speaker 1: this one people. When I think Joe hit the nail
Speaker 1: on the head that it is very possible multiple cultures
Speaker 1: coming in at multiple times. And I think the reason
Speaker 1: that this so intrigued me is that it shot so
Speaker 1: many holes into what we all learned as kids, which
Speaker 1: was caveman walked across the land bridge, chasing mass to dog.
Speaker 1: I think that's all probably the only theory that we
Speaker 1: can like pretty securely discount, I mean, right, like the
Speaker 1: sole source of the people. It's possible that at the
Speaker 1: end the land bridge may have been solid enough for
Speaker 1: people to just make that solid trek. But I personally
Speaker 1: think that what I don't care which side, whether it
Speaker 1: be the lant Take or the Pacific, I think that
Speaker 1: people's had to have come here by boat in some form.
Speaker 1: It's the only way they could have traveled fast enough
Speaker 1: availables likely, you know, And I don't think it's gonna
Speaker 1: happen that. I think it would be really fascinating to
Speaker 1: actually go down I mean that that stuff, the land
Speaker 1: bridge is still there. It's underwater, it's underwater. It would
Speaker 1: be really cool to go down there and just troll around.
Speaker 1: I mean, for one thing, I'm actualted to find out
Speaker 1: how long it was above and if it was above
Speaker 1: the waterline long enough for actual forests to develop on it,
Speaker 1: which case there should be archaeological ormates of forests in there.
Speaker 1: There should be a thousand or two thousand years. But
Speaker 1: I don't know how long. I don't know how high
Speaker 1: above sea level it was, Yeah, I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know how high above sea level you've got to be
Speaker 1: before the ground actually starts drying out significantly. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And but it would be fascinating to go down there
Speaker 1: and do a little underwater archaeology. And I realized that
Speaker 1: that that kind of thing is difficult next out to do,
Speaker 1: but I can't even but that would be the real test,
Speaker 1: would be to go down there and and map it.
Speaker 1: Pick a spot that looked like it would be a
Speaker 1: likely spot for humans to settle, at least temporarily, and
Speaker 1: then start digging. Let's see what you come up with.
Speaker 1: And and and there's there's the possibility that some of
Speaker 1: that might have hardened and filled in, so there might
Speaker 1: be I mean, there's there's so many prehistoric tracts of
Speaker 1: dinosaurs that have become stones. You might see that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, but it's so hard to see because it's
Speaker 1: been back underwater and now you've got you know, liquid
Speaker 1: forces are roadingism. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it would
Speaker 1: be hard. But there's got to be If that was
Speaker 1: a landage, there's got to be some evidence down there.
Speaker 1: There's got to be something. Yeah. Well, I mean that's
Speaker 1: unfortunately where we have to leave this. Got to solve
Speaker 1: it it okay, now now okay, I'm about to non
Speaker 1: sue the murder areas. But then the lights are going
Speaker 1: to go out. There will be a screen and it's
Speaker 1: sound of a body getting the floor. You're in the
Speaker 1: wrong month, man, Okay, Ah, Well that is where we're
Speaker 1: leaving it, because that's that's where the evidence leaves us.
Speaker 1: And I think we've all kind of beat this enough.
Speaker 1: Is the which direction we're thinking it's going. But if
Speaker 1: you want to read any of the research on this,
Speaker 1: that's going to be available on our website. The website
Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. We will also have
Speaker 1: at this episode in any past episode is there, so
Speaker 1: you can listen to them directly on the site. Uh.
Speaker 1: If you want to download the show on a regular basis,
Speaker 1: you want to subscribe, you can do it through the site,
Speaker 1: or of course you could just go to iTunes where
Speaker 1: I think most people are still going on iTunes. If
Speaker 1: you're there, take the time to leave us a comment
Speaker 1: and a rating. We do appreciate that and that that
Speaker 1: gets us out to the wider world of people to
Speaker 1: help find us, especially prefer this well you know all
Speaker 1: prs PR or something like that. Oh it isn't Oh
Speaker 1: ignore that last statement. Uh. Now, if you want to
Speaker 1: listen to an episode and you haven't had a chance
Speaker 1: to download it, but you you used stitcher, you can
Speaker 1: go ahead and just stream us through any more ready
Speaker 1: device right there. We are of course on Facebook, so
Speaker 1: we have the group and we have the Facebook page.
Speaker 1: Been some good good stuff going through both of us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and people have joined lately. We get a couple of
Speaker 1: conversations going, so followers and jos and of course we
Speaker 1: have our emails. If you have thoughts, comments, something you
Speaker 1: want to share, suggestions, Uh, the email is Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: podcast at gmail dot com. I know, of course this
Speaker 1: week alone, I left town and left Devon. I told Devon,
Speaker 1: don't worry, we won't get much. And then Devin just
Speaker 1: got in andto an emails els it's like or something,
Speaker 1: there's like there, don't worry, we won't get that many emails.
Speaker 1: And then like I was like, oh man, I need
Speaker 1: to check those because like it's been a couple of days.
Speaker 1: And I checked and they were like twenty email. Oh
Speaker 1: I forgot to tell you I check him on my
Speaker 1: phone all the time. So I kind of just deal
Speaker 1: with him on a running basis. No, it was a lot,
Speaker 1: it was. It was incredible. So I got to talk
Speaker 1: to a couple of people and kind of I don't
Speaker 1: know how you feel those I am awful at it. No, No,
Speaker 1: you did great, did good, and and everybody seemed to
Speaker 1: appreciate it. We got we got some thoughts, we got
Speaker 1: some ideas for topics, we got good stuff on there.
Speaker 1: Reminder that actually eight bit color is sixty four color.
Speaker 1: I mean it was four bit color. This was actually
Speaker 1: I was going to bring this email up because because
Speaker 1: I screwed up, and I will admit this right now.
Speaker 1: This is a correction. When we talked about Gary McKinnon,
Speaker 1: we said that he looked at one of his images
Speaker 1: in four bit color and I don't know it was
Speaker 1: four colors. One of us said, oh, well that for colors,
Speaker 1: when it's actually sixteen colors. That's been embarrassing. Sorry about
Speaker 1: that little incorrect but thank you for correcting. Yes, absolutely
Speaker 1: appreciate the correction, so that those are the kind of
Speaker 1: emails where I'm a little embarrassed, but I'm glad to
Speaker 1: get up. Sound like when somebody listens to the catalog
Speaker 1: later on speak you know. Yeah, obviously tonight I did
Speaker 1: a lot of that ye or mispronunciations. I think I
Speaker 1: did a bunch of those. Two lots of stuff, Yeah,
Speaker 1: lots of good stuff. This is basically a failure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: massive scale. This one will never get released, all right,
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen. Well that having been said, we're going
Speaker 1: to go ahead and close this one out. And I guess, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll be talking you next week probably by the way,
Speaker 1: I'm voting for the Sutrians. I didn't realize we're voting
Speaker 1: for things. Yeah, and goodbye three