WEBVTT - Open vs Closed: A TechStuff Debate 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:07.160 Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:14.120 stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to text Stuff. 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:17.520 I am your host, Jonathan Strickland. I am an executive 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:19.240 producer at how Stuff Works in a lot of all 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:21.880 things tech, and today we're going to bring you another 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:27.560 classic episode of tech Stuff. Years ago, my original co 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.160 host Chris Pallette and I sat down and we decided 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:34.480 to have kind of an artificial debate about open systems 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.880 versus closed systems. And in this episode you're going to 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.600 learn what that means. What is an open system versus 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.560 a closed system? What are the arguments for each model, 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.440 and why is it that you can't easily say one 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:50.960 is automatically better than the other. It's all a matter 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:55.200 of perspective. So let's listen to this classic episode. So 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.880 today we're going to have a goofy little debate about 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.760 open systems versus closed systems. We just decided that we're 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:04.840 going to experiment with this. We've never done one of 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.440 these before, and in fact, we decided on it about 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.560 thirty seconds before we started recording, and so to determine 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:15.200 who would represent which side, we did the most scientific 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.560 thing we could think of. We flipped a coin. It's 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.440 the quarter United States Quarter for those of you who 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.000 think that matters. Uh. And it turns out that did 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.039 it come from, um, you know what. I put it 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:28.480 back in my pocket, So I don't know. But but 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.000 Mr Chris rigged. Mr Chris Philett will be representing the 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.479 open system side and I shall be representing the closed 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:37.880 system side. So I think that proves it wasn't rigged. 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:41.840 Look at the kind of phone I'm using. So anyway, 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.000 I think I think in order to really understand what 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.800 we're talking about, first we have to establish what we 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.560 mean by an open versus a closed system. So let 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.440 me tell you what a closed system is. Closed systems 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:57.840 quality people. That's what a closed system is. Closed system 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:02.760 is where you create a and infrastructure. Uh, an ecosystem, 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.520 if you will, where you control as many of the 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:10.240 factors as you possibly can, and you don't allow outside 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.640 influences to change your system. So an example of a 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:19.160 company that takes the closed system approach is Apple. That's 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.480 not to say that Apple only does the closed off approach. 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:23.959 If it did, then you would never be able to 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.440 run any other kind of software or app on Apple products. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.720 You would only be able to run Apple created stuff. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:33.480 But it's an example of a system because it's more 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.560 closed than it is open. And there are various reasons 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:38.520 for doing this, but we'll get into that in the debate. 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.120 But that that's kind of what how I define a 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.400 closed system. It's one where you're trying to control as 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:47.360 much as possible and it's all coming from or as 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.320 much of it as possible is coming from a single 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:54.600 source and the outside stuff is shut away. Yes, And 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.400 and I think as we talk about this, our listeners 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.000 will realize that there are a few absolute in this discussion. 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:06.919 Very true, Okay. So open source information wants to be free, 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.800 and the ore are computing devices should too. It's the 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.000 only way to be uh, you know, free to be 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:20.760 you and me? Um, okay, hippie. No. An open system 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:25.320 is is something that is not made for corporate gain. 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.600 It is out there for the public to use. Anybody 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.360 who wants to make a contribution to it. Can people 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:35.200 can use it, uh if they want to, and there 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.200 is it's it's there as offered as a public service. Um. 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.680 And is therefore the people of the people, by the people, 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:47.680 and you closed system punks should leave us alone because 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:49.600 this is the way it really should be and trying 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.000 to make a buck off that is wrong. So if 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:53.800 you think of it, uh, an open system is sort 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.400 of democratic and that anyone can really contribute to it 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.160 and and change it. And also we should point out 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:02.560 before we really get into this debate, uh, that it 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:07.360 is possible to have a a product probably that's for sale, 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.040 either that's an open system or a closed system. Open 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:11.880 and closed does not mean that one is free and 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.760 one is is you charge for Yeah, I was, I did. Yeah, 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:17.640 that's a good point. I should have pointed out that 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.680 sort of the quote unquote ideal when when a lot 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:23.960 of people talk about open source, right, if you're going 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.680 the ultimate open source, like the utopian version of open source, 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.280 that's cool. That's cool, yeah, because there there really is 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.800 a spectrum here. But we're gonna try and be like hardcore. 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:39.680 So Malanie, explain why I think that closed systems are 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.719 superior to open systems. So with a closed system and 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:48.760 with with with with everything coming from a single source. 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:50.599 So in this case, let's say it's a company. A 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.000 company is creating a product that is closed off, no 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:57.120 other outside influence can can come into this product. It 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.440 means that there's an expectation of quality cont role that 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.680 you don't have with open systems. You actually contest everything, 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.719 make sure everything works properly on the hardware. So if 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.360 we're talking about a computer, we know that the software 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.240 will work on the computer because the software and hardware 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.960 have been developed together from the ground up. It means 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:20.320 that you don't have to worry about some weird incompatibility 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:25.039 issue when you try and install a program onto this device, 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.120 because again, everything is coming from the same source and 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.440 was made to work together. Now this can go beyond 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:33.760 just a computer. Let's say that you have a computer 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.440 and a smartphone and a tablet and they're all part 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.200 of the same closed system. It means that you can 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:44.600 expect a fairly uniform experience across these three platforms, and 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.000 maybe even be able to port your experience from one 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:48.760 to the other. And what I mean by that is, 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.840 let's say I'm watching a movie on my smartphone and 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:53.640 then I decide, you know what, I really want to 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:55.400 look at this on a bigger screen, and I tap 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.000 it over to my tablet, and the tablet starts playing 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.360 the movie exactly where I left off, and it all 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.480 works seamlessly because it's all running on the same platform 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:08.039 that's meant to work together. That is one of the 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.800 big benefits of a closed system is that you have 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.839 a uniformity in the experience and an expectation of things 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.960 are just gonna work because it was all built together 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:22.520 and meant to work together. Why are you taking away 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:28.679 my choice? If I want to have a different video 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.080 card than the one you stuck in my computer, I 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.039 want to be able to remove it and stick a 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.039 different one in there, you know what. And it's and 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.400 it's frustrating because any time I want to change a 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.479 component on my computer or I want something a little different. Uh, 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.320 you know, I have to deal with all the complications 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.320 that you're closed off. Uh. System is is taking away 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:56.520 and the problem is that, Uh, you're also restricting competition 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.960 because in your closed system, there's only one way to 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:01.800 go for a tablet, and there's one way to go 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:03.400 for an MP three player, and there's one way to 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:04.960 go for a smartphone. There's one way to go for 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:08.560 a computer. And I want I want choice. I want 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.520 to be able to customize my my computing experience. I 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.960 want to be able to buy something cheaper because competition 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.360 is driving down the cost of these products. So I 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.720 could go to your store and buy the one computer 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:23.720 you've got, or I could go to this store over 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.160 here and buy fifty different computers, and all of them 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.680 are cheaper than yours, and some of them even outperform yours. Well, 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:31.360 so what do you say to that? Here's what I 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:33.240 say to that. Sure, it might be cheaper. And even 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.920 if you have a device, a particular individual device that 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.240 performs better than one of my particular individual devices, if 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:43.120 you are trying to have an experience that spans multiple devices, 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.560 then you're going to start encountering things where the compatibility 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.760 issues come into play, and you may have um things 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.560 like software crashes because it's not designed to work together 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:57.760 seamlessly like a closed system is. So you might spend 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:02.400 less money initially when you first purchase your vast array 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.000 of choice here and you've got let you know, your 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:07.880 ultimate price tag is lower than you would if you 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:11.920 have bought everything from my superior closed system store. But 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.120 the amount of frustration you're going to have as that 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:20.040 experience is unsatisfactory because the various pieces are not playing 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:24.760 together properly is far going to outweigh the miniscule additional 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:26.920 investment you would have to make if you had purchased 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.440 it all from me in the first place. And yeah, 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:33.000 you're one individual device might behave better or perform better 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.559 than why one individual device, but collectively the experience is 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.440 much more satisfying on my end than it is on yours, 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:43.480 because it's yours is piecemeal. And also, my system is 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:47.360 designed to just work. Your system is designed to make 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.000 me have to have a computer science degree if I 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:51.920 want to figure out how to do the same thing 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:58.880 on one device as I'm doing on another device. Ha, superior, 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.240 You say, yes, I don't think that word means what 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.719 you think. Well, here, let me put it to you 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.520 another way. Let's let's let's take a look at the 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.760 way a closed system versus an open system attacks the 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:15.320 problem of malware because they have very different approaches. Right, So, 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:19.880 if we're talking about the perfect closed system, ideally there's 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.360 no malware because nothing from outside is being introduced into 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.520 the system unless there's some you know, disgruntled employee that 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.800 I've bullied out of out of their sanity. We don't 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.240 have to worry about malware entering into the closed system 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:37.079 because everything is made by this one entity and it's 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:38.760 all made to work together so you don't have to 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.760 worry about some sort of virus perpetuating itself through your system. 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:49.760 Now that's different from the way open systems attack malware. Well, 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.960 see the open systems, you could have other people, multiple 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.200 people working on solutions to things like vulnerabilities in the 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:02.160 operating system, and people who are working on uh anti 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:06.320 malware software for your system. So the thing is, that's 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.480 a small price to pay for the ability to hack 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.440 into the system and change whatever you want to change 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.920 about the system. If you want to, UH, get into 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:18.720 the operating system and see what makes it tick and 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:24.120 learn more about what what programs and what functions are 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.640 going on in the background. For example, you could be 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.520 monitoring everything I do, but if you're in your closed system, 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.200 I can't get into the background to see that. Then 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:34.640 you know you could be doing this all without my knowledge. 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.840 Um So with an open system, I I'm free to 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.240 install any software I want to, or remove any software 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.120 I want to from my device. And I could even 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.679 write my own because you know it's open and UH 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.079 it gives me the opportunity to hack in and play 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:52.960 with it and make it my own instead of make 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.800 it what your vision is because what if your closed vision, 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.560 you're closed off, walled off little garden isn't what I 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.120 think of as being the best experience for me, because hey, 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.079 everybody's an individual, right Well, first of all, we know 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.240 what you want even when you don't see That's the 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.480 thing is, we know what you want. You don't know 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:13.920 what you want, but we know what you want. You 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.079 think you know what you want, but until you've actually 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:20.480 bought into our our closed system, you really haven't haven't 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:24.280 experienced it. And we're going to go back into the 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.480 quality issue. Let's talk about the quality of and we're 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.520 talking about computing systems here, let's talk about the quality 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.680 of the programs that you're running on your system. Again, 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:38.000 with the closed system approach, those programs have been built 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.280 for a very specific set of hardware, which does not 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:42.960 change from what you know that if I buy my 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.960 computer from this closed system and someone else buys their 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.839 computer from the same closed system, those two computers are 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.760 going to be identical in every meaningful way. So we 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.480 know that the software is going to work equally well 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.120 on my system as it is on their system. Whereas 0:11:58.120 --> 0:11:59.920 if we both just go into a computer store and 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:04.280 we each just buy a computer from various you know, manufacturers. 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.240 There's no guarantee that the same kind of software is 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.240 going to work just as well on my machine as 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.360 it is on their machine, even if the two machines 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.400 are running the same operating system, because we have difficulties 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:19.360 introduced by things like device drivers and hardware differences. With 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.920 the closed system, you've eliminated that you don't have to 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.760 worry about that so much. So that means that the 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.600 quality of the experience of the software put aside the 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.880 quality of the software itself, but the experience of using 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.840 it is going to be less frustrating. Uh the you know, 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.600 you might say that there's a downside with the whole 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.200 choice factor, but at the same time, you don't have 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.880 to worry about it crashing all the time or just 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.400 not behaving the proper way. I think. Sure sometimes things happen, 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.360 but on a much less frequent basis than on these 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.040 these little open systems out there that that just well, 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.199 I don't know, they they they just they just are 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.320 like every anything goes. Guys. We have more to say 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.160 about open versus closed systems in just a second, but 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.840 before we get to that, let's take a quick break 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:18.079 to thank our sponsor. With open source software, you have 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.880 to pretend a limitless potential of applications that could be 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:25.560 run for it. The more open you become, the greater 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:30.200 the possibilities. Um. You know, so you you can have 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:32.840 your closed system and have things that run specifically on 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.760 that hardware. But you know, programmers like their choices too, 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.720 and they're gonna go where where the wealth of software is, 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.280 and that's going to attract more users, and vice versa 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.960 and verse visa and something. I disagree with that because users, 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.320 most users don't want to be curators. And if you 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:54.360 are a user of an open system, you have to 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.240 be a curator because there's so much that you're talking about, 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:01.559 so much variety and so much choice, that it's overwhelming 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.640 to the average user. You sit down and you see 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.560 like there's it's like walking into a library and you 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:08.320 have no idea what book you want to read. You 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:09.920 just know you want to read a book, and you 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:13.760 walk into an enormous library and you have no idea 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.480 where to go. It's too confusing, Whereas in a closed 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.240 system it's been curated for you. Your choices are limited, 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.040 but at the same time you don't have to worry 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:28.360 about going through eight thousand different word processing programs in 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:30.720 order to find one that suits your needs. There's really 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:35.240 only one choice. And if it suits your needs, that's awesome. Jonathan, 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:41.320 You ignorance ha ha ha oh Saturday Night Life. I 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:45.520 bet you they cut that. Um anyhow uh well, see, 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.240 there's one thing that that you're leaving out here, the market, 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:51.760 because what happens here is the market helps people whittle 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.960 down their choices. When you have something the the word 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.160 processor of choice, the one that that more people are 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:03.640 using than people understand, it's the best seller phenomenon. It's 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.760 like you, you you look at the best seller lists and 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:07.920 you and you say, you know what, these books are 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.800 very popular. I bet you anything that if I if 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.040 I read it, I'm you know, I will at least 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.200 look at these first because I know lots of people 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.000 like them, and that helps people make choices. As far 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.240 as software is concerned, and you know, there's always a 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:25.480 new programmer coming online to develop new software and you 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.600 can always help be the kingmaker for the next generation 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.600 of software too, But not in the closed system where 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.840 you know your choices are somewhat limited. I don't know. 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.320 I'm trying to think of a best selling open source 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.920 software example, and it's really hard. Well, you know, in 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.960 a lot of cases open source software can be free 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:48.600 or donationware, and a donationware world, people pay what they 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.160 what it's worth to them. And sure some people are 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:55.240 gonna pay a quarter, and there are also people who 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.240 pay a hundred dollars for the same piece of software 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.160 because it means more to them and it's important to 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.440 them to donate to the community. I mean, you know, 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.600 not found that out? How did how did minecraft? Just? 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.160 You know, it's it's a thing. Yeah, but I still 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.040 think that the closed system is the way to go. 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.120 It's a sustainable business model. It means that you once 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.160 you develop your your your line of devotees, you're good 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.800 to go. I mean because you've you've created that expectation 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.960 of that quality of experience that you deliver upon consistently, 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.320 and by doing that, you know that you know, as 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.360 long as you maintain that level of quality, that you 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:39.240 will have a customer base moving forward. Whereas with this 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.240 open source approach, I don't see how you're going to be, 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.440 you know, really making a sustainable business out of that. 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.400 And while the ideals are wonderful and fantastic and and 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:53.360 and and and and happy and all that mess. Um, 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.760 I just don't see it, you know, perpetuating itself after 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:58.960 a certain amount, and you know, eventually a guy's got 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.600 to eat well. And and that's why I think, uh, 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:07.600 that's why I think openness is sort of a bell curve. Yeah, 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.239 because the one end you have the clothe the the 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.359 completely closed off system with fewer fewer users, which you know, 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.720 we should point out again there's not really that many 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:19.960 that I can't think of any company that would be 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.080 though I could point to that say absolutely, is this 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:25.800 like even the systems that we think of as closed, 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.159 like Apple and Nintendo aren't really that closed. Otherwise no 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.760 third party developer would ever be able to create anything 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.600 for their platforms. Right. And then at the other side, Um, 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:40.520 I'm trying to think of somebody who is really completely 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.000 open as far as open source, but as close as 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:47.640 you can get. Yeah. And the thing is, as Jonathan 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:52.760 pointed out earlier, um Lenox is free, and it's you know, 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.320 the sources open, which is in the guts of the 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.080 operating system, are open for people to use. And there 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.520 are distributions of Linux that are completely free for people 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.240 to use, and there are others that. Uh. There is 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:07.000 a purchase price because it is tailored to specific needs 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.359 and usually has some support level of support built into that. 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.400 So if you buy the software, then you can expect 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:14.720 to have someone to call if you've got a problem. Yeah. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.439 Sometimes it's not the software itself that's that's got the 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:21.600 price tag, it's the support. So for example, Ubuntu is 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:23.960 that way you can you can get a free version 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:25.800 of a Buntu and install it on your computer. By 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:27.920 the way, the debate part of this podcast is over 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.080 in case you hadn't realized that we're now getting into 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.879 the more informational side. Um. Yeah, the the and I 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:37.040 think that went rather well them. But Aubuntu, you you 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.199 can get that for free and install that on a 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:42.200 machine for free. Uh. But if you want to have 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.560 professional level support, then you can pay a certain amount 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.320 of money and then you will have access to um 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.840 support staff, which could be anything from UM, my computer 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.359 isn't behaving properly, what is the what is the source 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.720 of this problem? How do I fix it too? I'm 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:03.200 running an actual close network of machines in this one business, 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:04.800 and I need to know how to set this up 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.720 so that everything is secure that kind of it's it's 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:11.000 all levels of support. Uh. And and you know, there 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:14.000 are definitely arguments both for and against the closed and 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.160 open systems, as we were demonstrating earlier. And it's not 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.920 that one system is inherently better or worse than the other. 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.800 They're just different philosophies on how to provide um goods 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.440 and services. Yeah, really they are the arguments we were making. 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.359 I think, Um, you know, there were good arguments on 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:36.280 both sides. I think the it works better. There are 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.440 arguments I've heard sort of like the ones the debate 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:41.800 we just had that we're far more heated than that 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.040 to get the when you're actually thinking about both sides 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:47.280 and not taking a side, it it kind of works 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.320 better because really there are some benefits with with clothes, 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.359 you do have things that just work, um. But with 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.199 open you do have a lot more choice and the 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:57.119 ability to tinker more with it. And it's sort of 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.720 really I think depends on what you're looking for. So, 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:02.440 which is why so many people use Windows, because it's 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.240 sort of an open closed system. You know, Windows is 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.920 Windows is sort of the middle ground. Uh, It's it's 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.359 it leans closed, Yeah, it leans closed, but it has 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:13.879 a lot of flexibility for people to build applications that 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:17.240 run on Windows. So in that that sense, it's open 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.920 in the in the way that you know, again, third 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.399 party developers create the vast majority of software that runs 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:28.200 on Windows based PCs. You know, very a small percentage 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.640 of the software that runs on Windows based PCs comes 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:35.320 from Microsoft. There there's there are very important applications that 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.199 are on a typical Windows based PC that are from Microsoft. 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:40.359 But you know, if you're like, if you're going to 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.840 some video gamers house and you're looking at his rig 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:46.439 then or her rig, I should say, because you know, 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:51.560 I've met some lead female video gamers who could wipe 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:54.600 the floor with me in any game I shows, which 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.600 is very they're staring at you now as a matter 0:20:57.640 --> 0:20:59.720 of fact, Yeah, well I'll probably end up seeing some 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.560 of them in ces uh, and they'll again I won't 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.720 challenge them that I already know how I would turn 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:07.960 out anyway. So you but you go on, you look 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.879 at the software on that person's uh computer, and you're 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:12.800 gonna see that there's a ton of stuff on there 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:15.800 that never came out of Microsoft. Uh. And same the 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:19.080 same sort of thing applies to Apple it's not. There's 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:21.800 not as much software as far as just you know, 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.919 sheer numbers as you would find for a Windows based PC. 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.119 But you know, even Apple, which we think of as 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:30.159 a really like a walled garden or a closed system, 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.600 depends heavily on third party developers. If it didn't, the 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:36.040 app store for the iPhone and iPad and and iPod 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:38.840 Touch would be empty. You know, there would be very 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.000 few apps that you could run because Apple only provides 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.880 a few, um but you know, they they they lean 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.560 very heavily on third party developers. Not at the same time, 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.800 third party developers have to go through a very rigorous 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:56.080 UH routine in order to submit an app and have 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:58.240 it featured in the App Store. And of course if 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:01.000