1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to text Stuff. 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: I am your host, Jonathan Strickland. I am an executive 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: producer at how Stuff Works in a lot of all 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: things tech, and today we're going to bring you another 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: classic episode of tech Stuff. Years ago, my original co 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: host Chris Pallette and I sat down and we decided 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: to have kind of an artificial debate about open systems 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: versus closed systems. And in this episode you're going to 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: learn what that means. What is an open system versus 11 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a closed system? What are the arguments for each model, 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: and why is it that you can't easily say one 13 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: is automatically better than the other. It's all a matter 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: of perspective. So let's listen to this classic episode. So 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: today we're going to have a goofy little debate about 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: open systems versus closed systems. We just decided that we're 17 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: going to experiment with this. We've never done one of 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: these before, and in fact, we decided on it about 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: thirty seconds before we started recording, and so to determine 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: who would represent which side, we did the most scientific 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: thing we could think of. We flipped a coin. It's 22 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: the quarter United States Quarter for those of you who 23 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: think that matters. Uh. And it turns out that did 24 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: it come from, um, you know what. I put it 25 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: back in my pocket, So I don't know. But but 26 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: Mr Chris rigged. Mr Chris Philett will be representing the 27 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: open system side and I shall be representing the closed 28 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: system side. So I think that proves it wasn't rigged. 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: Look at the kind of phone I'm using. So anyway, 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: I think I think in order to really understand what 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: we're talking about, first we have to establish what we 32 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: mean by an open versus a closed system. So let 33 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: me tell you what a closed system is. Closed systems 34 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: quality people. That's what a closed system is. Closed system 35 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: is where you create a and infrastructure. Uh, an ecosystem, 36 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: if you will, where you control as many of the 37 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: factors as you possibly can, and you don't allow outside 38 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: influences to change your system. So an example of a 39 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: company that takes the closed system approach is Apple. That's 40 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: not to say that Apple only does the closed off approach. 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: If it did, then you would never be able to 42 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: run any other kind of software or app on Apple products. 43 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: You would only be able to run Apple created stuff. 44 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: But it's an example of a system because it's more 45 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: closed than it is open. And there are various reasons 46 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: for doing this, but we'll get into that in the debate. 47 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: But that that's kind of what how I define a 48 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: closed system. It's one where you're trying to control as 49 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: much as possible and it's all coming from or as 50 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: much of it as possible is coming from a single 51 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: source and the outside stuff is shut away. Yes, And 52 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: and I think as we talk about this, our listeners 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: will realize that there are a few absolute in this discussion. 54 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: Very true, Okay. So open source information wants to be free, 55 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: and the ore are computing devices should too. It's the 56 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: only way to be uh, you know, free to be 57 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: you and me? Um, okay, hippie. No. An open system 58 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: is is something that is not made for corporate gain. 59 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: It is out there for the public to use. Anybody 60 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: who wants to make a contribution to it. Can people 61 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: can use it, uh if they want to, and there 62 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: is it's it's there as offered as a public service. Um. 63 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: And is therefore the people of the people, by the people, 64 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: and you closed system punks should leave us alone because 65 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: this is the way it really should be and trying 66 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: to make a buck off that is wrong. So if 67 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: you think of it, uh, an open system is sort 68 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: of democratic and that anyone can really contribute to it 69 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: and and change it. And also we should point out 70 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: before we really get into this debate, uh, that it 71 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: is possible to have a a product probably that's for sale, 72 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: either that's an open system or a closed system. Open 73 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: and closed does not mean that one is free and 74 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: one is is you charge for Yeah, I was, I did. Yeah, 75 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: that's a good point. I should have pointed out that 76 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: sort of the quote unquote ideal when when a lot 77 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: of people talk about open source, right, if you're going 78 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: the ultimate open source, like the utopian version of open source, 79 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: that's cool. That's cool, yeah, because there there really is 80 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: a spectrum here. But we're gonna try and be like hardcore. 81 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: So Malanie, explain why I think that closed systems are 82 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: superior to open systems. So with a closed system and 83 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: with with with with everything coming from a single source. 84 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: So in this case, let's say it's a company. A 85 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: company is creating a product that is closed off, no 86 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: other outside influence can can come into this product. It 87 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: means that there's an expectation of quality cont role that 88 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: you don't have with open systems. You actually contest everything, 89 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: make sure everything works properly on the hardware. So if 90 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: we're talking about a computer, we know that the software 91 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: will work on the computer because the software and hardware 92 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: have been developed together from the ground up. It means 93 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: that you don't have to worry about some weird incompatibility 94 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: issue when you try and install a program onto this device, 95 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: because again, everything is coming from the same source and 96 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: was made to work together. Now this can go beyond 97 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: just a computer. Let's say that you have a computer 98 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: and a smartphone and a tablet and they're all part 99 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: of the same closed system. It means that you can 100 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 1: expect a fairly uniform experience across these three platforms, and 101 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: maybe even be able to port your experience from one 102 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: to the other. And what I mean by that is, 103 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: let's say I'm watching a movie on my smartphone and 104 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: then I decide, you know what, I really want to 105 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: look at this on a bigger screen, and I tap 106 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: it over to my tablet, and the tablet starts playing 107 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: the movie exactly where I left off, and it all 108 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: works seamlessly because it's all running on the same platform 109 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: that's meant to work together. That is one of the 110 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: big benefits of a closed system is that you have 111 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: a uniformity in the experience and an expectation of things 112 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: are just gonna work because it was all built together 113 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: and meant to work together. Why are you taking away 114 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 1: my choice? If I want to have a different video 115 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: card than the one you stuck in my computer, I 116 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: want to be able to remove it and stick a 117 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: different one in there, you know what. And it's and 118 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: it's frustrating because any time I want to change a 119 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: component on my computer or I want something a little different. Uh, 120 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: you know, I have to deal with all the complications 121 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: that you're closed off. Uh. System is is taking away 122 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: and the problem is that, Uh, you're also restricting competition 123 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: because in your closed system, there's only one way to 124 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: go for a tablet, and there's one way to go 125 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: for an MP three player, and there's one way to 126 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: go for a smartphone. There's one way to go for 127 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: a computer. And I want I want choice. I want 128 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: to be able to customize my my computing experience. I 129 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: want to be able to buy something cheaper because competition 130 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: is driving down the cost of these products. So I 131 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: could go to your store and buy the one computer 132 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: you've got, or I could go to this store over 133 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: here and buy fifty different computers, and all of them 134 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: are cheaper than yours, and some of them even outperform yours. Well, 135 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: so what do you say to that? Here's what I 136 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: say to that. Sure, it might be cheaper. And even 137 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: if you have a device, a particular individual device that 138 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: performs better than one of my particular individual devices, if 139 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: you are trying to have an experience that spans multiple devices, 140 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: then you're going to start encountering things where the compatibility 141 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: issues come into play, and you may have um things 142 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: like software crashes because it's not designed to work together 143 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: seamlessly like a closed system is. So you might spend 144 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: less money initially when you first purchase your vast array 145 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: of choice here and you've got let you know, your 146 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: ultimate price tag is lower than you would if you 147 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: have bought everything from my superior closed system store. But 148 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: the amount of frustration you're going to have as that 149 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: experience is unsatisfactory because the various pieces are not playing 150 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: together properly is far going to outweigh the miniscule additional 151 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: investment you would have to make if you had purchased 152 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: it all from me in the first place. And yeah, 153 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: you're one individual device might behave better or perform better 154 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: than why one individual device, but collectively the experience is 155 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: much more satisfying on my end than it is on yours, 156 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: because it's yours is piecemeal. And also, my system is 157 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: designed to just work. Your system is designed to make 158 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: me have to have a computer science degree if I 159 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: want to figure out how to do the same thing 160 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: on one device as I'm doing on another device. Ha, superior, 161 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: You say, yes, I don't think that word means what 162 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 1: you think. Well, here, let me put it to you 163 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: another way. Let's let's let's take a look at the 164 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: way a closed system versus an open system attacks the 165 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: problem of malware because they have very different approaches. Right, So, 166 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: if we're talking about the perfect closed system, ideally there's 167 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: no malware because nothing from outside is being introduced into 168 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: the system unless there's some you know, disgruntled employee that 169 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: I've bullied out of out of their sanity. We don't 170 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: have to worry about malware entering into the closed system 171 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: because everything is made by this one entity and it's 172 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: all made to work together so you don't have to 173 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: worry about some sort of virus perpetuating itself through your system. 174 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: Now that's different from the way open systems attack malware. Well, 175 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: see the open systems, you could have other people, multiple 176 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: people working on solutions to things like vulnerabilities in the 177 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: operating system, and people who are working on uh anti 178 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: malware software for your system. So the thing is, that's 179 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: a small price to pay for the ability to hack 180 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: into the system and change whatever you want to change 181 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: about the system. If you want to, UH, get into 182 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: the operating system and see what makes it tick and 183 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: learn more about what what programs and what functions are 184 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: going on in the background. For example, you could be 185 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: monitoring everything I do, but if you're in your closed system, 186 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: I can't get into the background to see that. Then 187 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: you know you could be doing this all without my knowledge. 188 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: Um So with an open system, I I'm free to 189 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: install any software I want to, or remove any software 190 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: I want to from my device. And I could even 191 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: write my own because you know it's open and UH 192 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: it gives me the opportunity to hack in and play 193 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: with it and make it my own instead of make 194 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: it what your vision is because what if your closed vision, 195 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: you're closed off, walled off little garden isn't what I 196 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: think of as being the best experience for me, because hey, 197 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: everybody's an individual, right Well, first of all, we know 198 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: what you want even when you don't see That's the 199 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: thing is, we know what you want. You don't know 200 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: what you want, but we know what you want. You 201 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: think you know what you want, but until you've actually 202 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: bought into our our closed system, you really haven't haven't 203 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: experienced it. And we're going to go back into the 204 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: quality issue. Let's talk about the quality of and we're 205 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: talking about computing systems here, let's talk about the quality 206 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: of the programs that you're running on your system. Again, 207 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: with the closed system approach, those programs have been built 208 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: for a very specific set of hardware, which does not 209 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: change from what you know that if I buy my 210 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: computer from this closed system and someone else buys their 211 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: computer from the same closed system, those two computers are 212 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: going to be identical in every meaningful way. So we 213 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: know that the software is going to work equally well 214 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: on my system as it is on their system. Whereas 215 00:11:58,120 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: if we both just go into a computer store and 216 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: we each just buy a computer from various you know, manufacturers. 217 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: There's no guarantee that the same kind of software is 218 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: going to work just as well on my machine as 219 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: it is on their machine, even if the two machines 220 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: are running the same operating system, because we have difficulties 221 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: introduced by things like device drivers and hardware differences. With 222 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: the closed system, you've eliminated that you don't have to 223 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: worry about that so much. So that means that the 224 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: quality of the experience of the software put aside the 225 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: quality of the software itself, but the experience of using 226 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: it is going to be less frustrating. Uh the you know, 227 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: you might say that there's a downside with the whole 228 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: choice factor, but at the same time, you don't have 229 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: to worry about it crashing all the time or just 230 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: not behaving the proper way. I think. Sure sometimes things happen, 231 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: but on a much less frequent basis than on these 232 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: these little open systems out there that that just well, 233 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: I don't know, they they they just they just are 234 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: like every anything goes. Guys. We have more to say 235 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: about open versus closed systems in just a second, but 236 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: before we get to that, let's take a quick break 237 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: to thank our sponsor. With open source software, you have 238 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: to pretend a limitless potential of applications that could be 239 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: run for it. The more open you become, the greater 240 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: the possibilities. Um. You know, so you you can have 241 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: your closed system and have things that run specifically on 242 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: that hardware. But you know, programmers like their choices too, 243 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: and they're gonna go where where the wealth of software is, 244 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: and that's going to attract more users, and vice versa 245 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: and verse visa and something. I disagree with that because users, 246 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: most users don't want to be curators. And if you 247 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: are a user of an open system, you have to 248 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: be a curator because there's so much that you're talking about, 249 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: so much variety and so much choice, that it's overwhelming 250 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: to the average user. You sit down and you see 251 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: like there's it's like walking into a library and you 252 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: have no idea what book you want to read. You 253 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: just know you want to read a book, and you 254 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: walk into an enormous library and you have no idea 255 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: where to go. It's too confusing, Whereas in a closed 256 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: system it's been curated for you. Your choices are limited, 257 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: but at the same time you don't have to worry 258 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: about going through eight thousand different word processing programs in 259 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: order to find one that suits your needs. There's really 260 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: only one choice. And if it suits your needs, that's awesome. Jonathan, 261 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: You ignorance ha ha ha oh Saturday Night Life. I 262 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: bet you they cut that. Um anyhow uh well, see, 263 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: there's one thing that that you're leaving out here, the market, 264 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: because what happens here is the market helps people whittle 265 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: down their choices. When you have something the the word 266 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: processor of choice, the one that that more people are 267 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: using than people understand, it's the best seller phenomenon. It's 268 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: like you, you you look at the best seller lists and 269 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: you and you say, you know what, these books are 270 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: very popular. I bet you anything that if I if 271 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: I read it, I'm you know, I will at least 272 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: look at these first because I know lots of people 273 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: like them, and that helps people make choices. As far 274 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: as software is concerned, and you know, there's always a 275 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: new programmer coming online to develop new software and you 276 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: can always help be the kingmaker for the next generation 277 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: of software too, But not in the closed system where 278 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: you know your choices are somewhat limited. I don't know. 279 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of a best selling open source 280 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: software example, and it's really hard. Well, you know, in 281 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: a lot of cases open source software can be free 282 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: or donationware, and a donationware world, people pay what they 283 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: what it's worth to them. And sure some people are 284 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: gonna pay a quarter, and there are also people who 285 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: pay a hundred dollars for the same piece of software 286 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: because it means more to them and it's important to 287 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: them to donate to the community. I mean, you know, 288 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: not found that out? How did how did minecraft? Just? 289 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a thing. Yeah, but I still 290 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: think that the closed system is the way to go. 291 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: It's a sustainable business model. It means that you once 292 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: you develop your your your line of devotees, you're good 293 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: to go. I mean because you've you've created that expectation 294 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: of that quality of experience that you deliver upon consistently, 295 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: and by doing that, you know that you know, as 296 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: long as you maintain that level of quality, that you 297 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: will have a customer base moving forward. Whereas with this 298 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: open source approach, I don't see how you're going to be, 299 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: you know, really making a sustainable business out of that. 300 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: And while the ideals are wonderful and fantastic and and 301 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: and and and and happy and all that mess. Um, 302 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: I just don't see it, you know, perpetuating itself after 303 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: a certain amount, and you know, eventually a guy's got 304 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: to eat well. And and that's why I think, uh, 305 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: that's why I think openness is sort of a bell curve. Yeah, 306 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,239 Speaker 1: because the one end you have the clothe the the 307 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: completely closed off system with fewer fewer users, which you know, 308 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: we should point out again there's not really that many 309 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: that I can't think of any company that would be 310 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: though I could point to that say absolutely, is this 311 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: like even the systems that we think of as closed, 312 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: like Apple and Nintendo aren't really that closed. Otherwise no 313 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: third party developer would ever be able to create anything 314 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: for their platforms. Right. And then at the other side, Um, 315 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of somebody who is really completely 316 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: open as far as open source, but as close as 317 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: you can get. Yeah. And the thing is, as Jonathan 318 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: pointed out earlier, um Lenox is free, and it's you know, 319 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: the sources open, which is in the guts of the 320 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: operating system, are open for people to use. And there 321 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: are distributions of Linux that are completely free for people 322 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: to use, and there are others that. Uh. There is 323 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: a purchase price because it is tailored to specific needs 324 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: and usually has some support level of support built into that. 325 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: So if you buy the software, then you can expect 326 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: to have someone to call if you've got a problem. Yeah. 327 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's not the software itself that's that's got the 328 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: price tag, it's the support. So for example, Ubuntu is 329 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: that way you can you can get a free version 330 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: of a Buntu and install it on your computer. By 331 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: the way, the debate part of this podcast is over 332 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: in case you hadn't realized that we're now getting into 333 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: the more informational side. Um. Yeah, the the and I 334 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: think that went rather well them. But Aubuntu, you you 335 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: can get that for free and install that on a 336 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: machine for free. Uh. But if you want to have 337 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: professional level support, then you can pay a certain amount 338 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: of money and then you will have access to um 339 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: support staff, which could be anything from UM, my computer 340 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: isn't behaving properly, what is the what is the source 341 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: of this problem? How do I fix it too? I'm 342 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: running an actual close network of machines in this one business, 343 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: and I need to know how to set this up 344 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: so that everything is secure that kind of it's it's 345 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: all levels of support. Uh. And and you know, there 346 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: are definitely arguments both for and against the closed and 347 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: open systems, as we were demonstrating earlier. And it's not 348 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: that one system is inherently better or worse than the other. 349 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: They're just different philosophies on how to provide um goods 350 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: and services. Yeah, really they are the arguments we were making. 351 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: I think, Um, you know, there were good arguments on 352 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: both sides. I think the it works better. There are 353 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: arguments I've heard sort of like the ones the debate 354 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: we just had that we're far more heated than that 355 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: to get the when you're actually thinking about both sides 356 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: and not taking a side, it it kind of works 357 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: better because really there are some benefits with with clothes, 358 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: you do have things that just work, um. But with 359 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 1: open you do have a lot more choice and the 360 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: ability to tinker more with it. And it's sort of 361 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: really I think depends on what you're looking for. So, 362 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: which is why so many people use Windows, because it's 363 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: sort of an open closed system. You know, Windows is 364 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: Windows is sort of the middle ground. Uh, It's it's 365 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: it leans closed, Yeah, it leans closed, but it has 366 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: a lot of flexibility for people to build applications that 367 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: run on Windows. So in that that sense, it's open 368 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: in the in the way that you know, again, third 369 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: party developers create the vast majority of software that runs 370 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: on Windows based PCs. You know, very a small percentage 371 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: of the software that runs on Windows based PCs comes 372 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: from Microsoft. There there's there are very important applications that 373 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: are on a typical Windows based PC that are from Microsoft. 374 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: But you know, if you're like, if you're going to 375 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: some video gamers house and you're looking at his rig 376 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: then or her rig, I should say, because you know, 377 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: I've met some lead female video gamers who could wipe 378 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: the floor with me in any game I shows, which 379 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: is very they're staring at you now as a matter 380 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: of fact, Yeah, well I'll probably end up seeing some 381 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: of them in ces uh, and they'll again I won't 382 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: challenge them that I already know how I would turn 383 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: out anyway. So you but you go on, you look 384 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: at the software on that person's uh computer, and you're 385 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: gonna see that there's a ton of stuff on there 386 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: that never came out of Microsoft. Uh. And same the 387 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: same sort of thing applies to Apple it's not. There's 388 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: not as much software as far as just you know, 389 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: sheer numbers as you would find for a Windows based PC. 390 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: But you know, even Apple, which we think of as 391 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: a really like a walled garden or a closed system, 392 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: depends heavily on third party developers. If it didn't, the 393 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: app store for the iPhone and iPad and and iPod 394 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: Touch would be empty. You know, there would be very 395 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: few apps that you could run because Apple only provides 396 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: a few, um but you know, they they they lean 397 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: very heavily on third party developers. Not at the same time, 398 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: third party developers have to go through a very rigorous 399 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: UH routine in order to submit an app and have 400 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: it featured in the App Store. And of course if 401 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: it's not in the app store, technically you can't load 402 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: it on an Apple device unless you've gone through the 403 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: process of jail breaking it. But using it unaltered an 404 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: unaltered Apple device, you can only load things that are 405 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: through the the Apple's official app store, So in that 406 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: sense it's closed off because if it's not approved, then 407 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't go on. The same thing with Nintendo, you know, 408 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: they would certify the games that would go on their 409 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 1: systems and if it didn't get Nintendo certification, it didn't, 410 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: it didn't get made, didn't become available on the Nintendo. So, uh, 411 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: that's a closed way of looking at and again that 412 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: goes to that sort of quality control argument where the 413 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: closed the company perpetuating this closed system could argue that 414 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: this means that we only have applications of a certain 415 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: quality that we know are going to run properly on 416 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: our hardware. They're not going to cause any problems with 417 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: anything else running on our hardware, and they're going to 418 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: deliver an experience that we you know, it reaches a 419 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: certain level that we have come to expect with our 420 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: our products. Um, Whereas if you go with an open system, 421 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: it's more like we want anyone to be able to 422 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: potentially run anything on this system that's been designed for it, 423 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: and we don't want to limit that at all. We 424 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: don't want to put our biases against certain kinds of applications, 425 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: are certain ways of creating stuff in play. We want 426 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: it to be an open playground for everybody. We have 427 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: a little bit more to say about this whole concept 428 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: of how do you present your systems? Do you go 429 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: with the open model or the closed model? But before 430 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: we jump into that last bit, let's take another quick 431 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: break to thank our sponsor. Well, uh, you know, for 432 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: for Windows, you can argue, you can make the hardware argument, Well, 433 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: I can go and build my own system from the 434 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: components that I can get in my my corner electronics store, 435 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: and I can make my own system and install Windows 436 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: on it, and it's gonna work. Uh. Of course, chances 437 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: are that the there are drivers for the video card, 438 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: and there are drivers for all the devices that you're 439 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: going to do because you're running Windows on it, and 440 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: and you would also have to take considerations like, uh, 441 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: which kind of motherboard are you using? Because only certain 442 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: motherboards will support certain processors but not other processors. So yeah, 443 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: you've got limitations on on. You know, It's not like 444 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: even building a PC from scratch is not totally open 445 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: because some components are going to limit which other components 446 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: you can actually put into your machine. In other words, 447 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: not everything is compatible with everything else, which is uh 448 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: for for people who are interested in dabbling with Linux, 449 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 1: that can be frustrating because, um, the drivers come around. 450 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: Some some component manufacturers will write a driver for Lenox 451 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: for their card or or device, but not all of 452 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: them will, and so it relies on the community to 453 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: put one in there. And for people who go, you 454 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: know what, I really want to try I want to 455 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: or you know Linux meant or you know any of 456 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: the others, and I want to try this out. So 457 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: they put it the disk in there, they reboot their machines, 458 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: and they'll find out that parts of their system don't 459 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: don't quite work. Yeah, and the more odds, the more 460 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: frustrating for people who are just playing around with Yeah, 461 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: the more obscure the elements are inside your machine, the 462 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: less likely you're gonna find support. Just off the top 463 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: of the bat. I mean, if it's something that's a 464 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: really popular component, then you can it's a pretty safe 465 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: bet that someone out there has created a driver for 466 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: it for an open source operating system, just because you 467 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: know law of averages, you've got a lot of people 468 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: who are using the same kind of hardware, then there's 469 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: a good chance someone has designed something so that that 470 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 1: hardware will work properly with an open source operating system. 471 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: But if you've got you know, some cheap sound card 472 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: that you found that it is made by someone that 473 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: hardly anyone knows about, it may not have the support 474 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: there in an open source operating system. But then you know, 475 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: the same thing is true with if you if you 476 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: upgrade a Windows based PC and you go to the 477 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: new form of Windows, often you will find that one 478 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: of the big problems is that you'll lose um support 479 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: for certain kinds of peripherals. The drivers will not update, 480 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: or they aren't compatible with the new operating system, and 481 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: sometimes they gets patched, or sometimes the device manufacturers will 482 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: release a new driver that works specifically with a new 483 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: operating system. But you can't get stuck that way too, 484 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: So it's not like it's only with open source. In fact, 485 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: that was one of the big problems that people were 486 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,199 Speaker 1: reporting with Mac OS ten lion was that, you know, 487 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: if you upgraded that, which is a closed system. You know, 488 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: you're talking about a known quantity with Apple hardware, but 489 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: if you upgraded, there were certain peripherals that they didn't 490 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: have driver support anymore, and you know, or certain software 491 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: that had no no longer had support, and it was 492 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: software that was designed to run on the Mac operating 493 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: system and yet could not run this newest version of 494 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: the OS. Uh So it's not like it's a problem 495 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: that's unique to open source. It can all will happen 496 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: in a closed system. Um. You know, the people who 497 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: create closed systems would probably argue what happens less frequently, 498 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: or that you might not have to wait as long. 499 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: But that's you know, splitting hairs. Yeah, that's um that's 500 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 1: another thing too, for for operating systems that are designed 501 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: by the community. UM, there's you know, it may be 502 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: difficult to find a particular driver or piece of software 503 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: simply because somebody may not necessarily be working on it, 504 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: depending on if there are vulnerabilities in the operating system there. Uh. 505 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: Generally something like that is going to draw the attention 506 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: of the community and will be fixed more quickly. Apple 507 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: gets criticized from time to time when they find vulnerabilities 508 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: in the operating system that could open the machine up 509 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: to uh uh possible attack. Um, you know, for not 510 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: acting on it as quickly as Microsoft does with its patches. Um. 511 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: You know. So there's there's a trade off there, Um, 512 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: but there is. I think there is some benefit in 513 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: a way of being that more hybrid system because um, 514 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, that attracts the most users. I want some flexibility, 515 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: but I want most mostly I want it to work. Um. 516 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: So you get that sort of combo uh system. And 517 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: that's really sort of what Android is really when you 518 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: get down to it, because Android works on a multitude 519 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: of different phones, whereas iOS. Apple's iOS system works on 520 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: Apple branded phones and those only UM and some of 521 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: the others do to the the web os worked on 522 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: the on the Palm phones. UM, you know those are 523 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: those are closed systems. UM Windows works on a on 524 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: a variety of different phones. But the problem is for developers, 525 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: and they find this with a variety of systems too, 526 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: that U um uh closed system is an easier target 527 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: for them to hit. UM. One of the complaints I've 528 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: heard from Android developers is that, uh, they have difficulty 529 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: writing software that will work with all the different versions 530 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: of the operating system they're out there, and all all 531 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: these different phones, with all these different hard hardware components. 532 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: Something being a part of the problem being the carriers, 533 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: because they're not the ones not pushing out the operating 534 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: system updates for the different phones. Some of the older 535 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: updates are just lingering on. I'm not looking at you 536 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: people who won't update my phone months after Jonathan's got 537 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: his anyway, UM anyhow, Yes, I'm beating the desk of 538 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: my candy because I'm angry with them. But yeah, I 539 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: mean that's a it's a problem for developers a closed system. Hey, 540 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: you know you have a specific range of components. You 541 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: know what kind of processor in general is going to 542 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: be in there. You have a pretty good idea what 543 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: the operating system entails. You know, it's it's an easy 544 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: target to hit. But the problem with in the Mac cases, 545 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: fewer people are using it, so it's less it's a 546 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: less desirable target to hit because there are fewer dollars 547 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: to be made by writing software for it to trade off. 548 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: Getting back to the idea of the closed versus open 549 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: and I'll bring system updates. Uh so let's let's go 550 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: ahead and we'll talk about Apple versus Google, because that's 551 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: that's pretty easy. And even then again, Apple is not 552 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,239 Speaker 1: totally a closed system and Google Google is certainly not 553 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: totally an open system. But it's a different approach. Right, 554 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: Like you were saying, Uh, the iOS is only going 555 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: to appear on iPhones, You're not going to find that 556 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: another hardware. Um, it's because the iPhone was designed to 557 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: do it. That that's the way Apple once it done. 558 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: It's and that's how it's intended. So yeah, sticking with 559 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: phones because that makes it it's it makes illustration, makes 560 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: talking easy illustration. Uh So, then on the Android side, 561 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,959 Speaker 1: Android can theoretically be added to like a manufacturer can 562 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: choose to partner with Google and create an Android phone. 563 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: It's free, it's pretty them. They can they can just build. 564 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: All I have to do is build hardware that is 565 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: capable of supporting Android, and then they are allowed to 566 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: have Android as the operating system for that smartphone. So 567 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: two different approaches. Um Now with Apple, when there's an 568 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: OS update for iOS, Apple can push that out to 569 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: all the different devices that can still support that iOS. 570 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: But there's still going to be some to get left 571 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: behind eventually, just because the physical limitations of the hardware 572 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: will be reached, you won't be able to go beyond this. 573 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: So if you have a first generation iPhone, it's only 574 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: going to run iOS up to a certain point, and 575 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: after that you're never gonna get an update again because 576 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: you've reached the capacity of what that hardware is capable 577 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: of achieving without having a completely unsatisfying experience using that iPhone. Well, 578 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: they could just never make a newer one, except then 579 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: everyone would have what they were going to buy, and 580 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: there wouldn't be any reason for them upgrade. So anyway, 581 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: Uh but yeah, but but if you have a fairly 582 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: recent like usually it's within for the last three generations, 583 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: the latest one, the one right before that, and maybe 584 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: the one before that, you typically are able to get 585 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: the latest UM software upgrade. You might eventually get left behind, 586 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: like the three GS is probably getting pretty close to 587 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: its upper limits right now. But uh, you know, meanwhile, 588 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: when you go over to the Android side, you have 589 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: all these different carriers and they're all having they all 590 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: have handsets with different capabilities, and uh, you know, some 591 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: of those handsets might be able to run the Lace 592 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: version of Android, and some of them might not, you know, 593 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: or if they were to run the last version of Android, 594 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: the hands that might get really hot and the battery 595 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: might drain really quickly, so you would have a very 596 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: unhappy experience you're seeing it, even if you had the 597 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: Lace version, Like, well, I've got the Lace version, but 598 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: my phone lasts for two hours, then it's dead, and 599 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: at the whole time it feels like it's gonna set 600 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: my pants on fire. UM, make all excuses you want, 601 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: they still haven't pushed you out to my phone. Okay, well, 602 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: for some people like Chris setting your pants on fire, 603 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: apparently it's a feature, not a bug. Um, but what 604 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: kills the bugs there? You go, okay, well, we've all 605 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: learned something new about christal Um. So yeah, the the 606 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: that is that is one of the downsides. Now again, 607 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: like Chris was saying, you've got a lot more choice 608 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: with the open system. So if you want a phone 609 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: that has a certain processor in it or has a 610 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: certain kind of camera in it, you've got a lot 611 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: more choice than you would if you are on the 612 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: other side of the closed system. Got you know, with 613 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: the closest me essentially have the latest version of it, 614 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: and usually the one directly before it, and maybe the 615 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: one before that. And uh yeah, I mean you have 616 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: all the people that have adopted and and Android numbers 617 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: that we've that have been coming out as of about 618 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: the time that we're recording this, in very very late um, 619 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: android numbers are taking off. They're far outstripping apples, uh, 620 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: iPhone new customers even as fast as the iPhone sales. 621 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: And I think there are two big reasons. But I'm sorry, 622 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: go ahead, Well I was gonna say, is that. Well, 623 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: go ahead. Well, the two big reasons I see is 624 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: one there's way more choice, yeah right, so you've got 625 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: like all these different options. And two there are a 626 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: lot more lower cost options out there, Like with the 627 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: iPhone you've got. You know, you've got the latest version 628 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: which is going to be pretty expensive, and then the 629 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: older version, which is slightly less expensive. But you're not 630 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: gonna find any like bargain bin type stuff. You're not 631 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: gonna come across. I don't know if anyone who's ever 632 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: offered like a free iPhone with a two year contract, 633 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: but there have been Android phones that the older ones yeah, um, 634 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: actually low cost I guess maybe not free. Um. Well, 635 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: the thing is that now that that Android is becoming 636 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: the big target for developers in its class, um, you know, 637 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: there are all kinds of apps that are out there 638 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,439 Speaker 1: and available for it. Um. There are also all kinds 639 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: of app stores that you can use to You don't 640 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: have to go through just the Google marketplace if you 641 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: don't want to, although you do have to change a 642 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: setting on your phone in order to be able to 643 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: access them. That that's correct. Um. The thing is, though, 644 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: the bigger the target, the more people the developers of 645 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: all kinds, including malware developers. It attracts that um not 646 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, this has nothing to do with the quality 647 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: of the operating system or the security measures inherent in 648 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: the operating system. It's just a bigger target and therefore 649 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: it's a um a juicier place to strike for the 650 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: person and in the legit people too. I mean, hey, 651 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: I can I can sell my app in this app 652 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: store and reach five thousand people. I can sell my 653 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: app in this app store and reach five million people? 654 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: Yea itself far more over here. The thing is, though, 655 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: it also UH and I would argue that this is 656 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 1: the case for any tech that has reached that kind 657 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: of UH adoption rate, that it also inspires a lot 658 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: of junk. I mean we saw it with Atari when 659 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: opened up the platform and allowed other people to write 660 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: software for it, they were all kind of that's what 661 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: caused the video game, correct, which is where I was 662 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: getting into the whole curation argument in the debate. If 663 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: you are using an open system, then you're gonna have 664 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: a lot more choice with when it comes to not 665 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: just you know, options, but but apps that you can run. 666 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: But that also means that with the good comes a 667 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: lot of bad not that the closed systems necessarily you know, 668 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: it's not that Apple is free of bad apps. There 669 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: are plenty of bad apps in the Apple app Store. Okay, 670 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: so I don't mean to say that, but no, no, 671 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: But because is that there's not necessarily like there's no 672 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: qualifier to create an app for Google, and you can 673 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: submit to the Google Marketplace, or you can even host 674 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: it somewhere else if you want to, and not even 675 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: go through the the process of submitting it to Google 676 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: market and people can still find it and download it 677 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: to their shorts or tablets, you know, mobile devices. Um. 678 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, that curation becomes a problem because then if 679 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: you've got that much choice and there's no like, there's 680 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: no one out there who's kind of curating this for you, 681 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: it all falls on your shoulders. And uh, that can 682 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: just get exhausting. I mean, I mean looking through just 683 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: the list of applications, uh just you know, going page 684 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: by page. You sit there and think, well, I could 685 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: look at the ones that are the most popular and 686 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: use that as kind of a guide of curation, but 687 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: it may very well be that the app that really 688 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: meets my needs is eight pages down. And you know 689 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: that gets kind of frustrating after a while. Um yeah, 690 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's funny too, because one of the 691 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: things that some people have said against Lenox. I mean, 692 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 1: I've I've used a couple of different flavors of Linux. 693 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: I really like the operating system. I Um, I don't 694 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: like that there are fewer people writing software for it, 695 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: but I still I love the idea, and I like 696 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: the operating system an awful lot um and the more 697 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: I play with it, the more I've enjoyed using it. 698 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: But the thing is, some people have said that the 699 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: fact that it's free is a problem because it sort 700 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: of encourages people to think that it's not actually worth anything. Right, 701 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: it should have money. It gives it gives a It 702 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,399 Speaker 1: gives some people the feeling that, well, if it's free, 703 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: it must not be very good. Yeah, because you know, 704 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: if it were good, I'd have to pay money for it, 705 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: which is untrue. Which is funny because if you had 706 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: to pay money for it, people will be trying to 707 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: find a way around having to pay money for it. 708 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: Now you're you're making my brain hurt. Here's the crazy Okay, 709 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: stereotypical computer user, stereotypical Internet savvy computer user. All Right, 710 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 1: if something doesn't cost money, then it's not worth having. 711 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: If it's If something costs money, it's worth having, but 712 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: you shouldn't pay for it. Yeah, like you are a 713 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: messed up person, typical computer user. You need to re 714 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: examine your priorities. Yeah, yeah, well I think. And by 715 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,959 Speaker 1: the way, I was once like you, Well, I think, yeah, 716 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: ideally to me anyway, And I think it does come 717 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: down to personal choice. I think ideally, Um, I do 718 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: prefer a hybrid. I do want I don't want to 719 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: have to. I like the idea of being able to 720 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 1: hack into things and being able to make choices and 721 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: fool around with stuff. But I wanted at the end, 722 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: I wanted to be able to work. I don't want 723 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 1: to spend all my time hacking with it. I was like, okay, 724 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: I'm done now. I want to close the hood and 725 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: play on it. And I can't. Kind of broke it. 726 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: And we both own devices that run Android, and we 727 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: both own devices that run Apple operating systems, so we 728 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: both own Windows computers. Yeah. So, I mean, it's it's 729 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: not like it's not like we're saying this as fan 730 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: boys of one system versus another, even though we played 731 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: that in the debate. UM, I mean I I own 732 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: an Android fund my wife has an i phone, and 733 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: we are both very happy with our devices for very 734 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: different reasons. It meets exactly what she wants in a smartphone, 735 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: but for me it would probably be it's a beautiful 736 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 1: device and it has a great interface, but it probably 737 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: would be more frustrating to me than my Android phone, 738 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: which meets my needs. Whereas the Android phone, I know 739 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 1: for a fact, would annoy and irritate my wife because 740 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: she used to have one and she doesn't anymore and 741 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: she never will again because she's very happy with her iPhone. 742 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: So again, it's too just two different people and two 743 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 1: different uh, preferences for the operating system. It's it's not 744 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,879 Speaker 1: that one is inherently better or worse than the other. 745 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: It's just that it suits mine you know, one suits 746 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: my needs and one suit serves Yeah. Yeah, it's it's 747 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: it all comes down to the stuff that matters to 748 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,399 Speaker 1: the individual. Um And in the end, I think it's 749 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: it's uh. Most people sort of go for the mix 750 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: of things. Well, I want this part to just work, 751 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: but the rest of it, I want to be able 752 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: to fool around with and I think that's another one 753 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,959 Speaker 1: of the appeals of Windows. It's sort of that middle ground. Um, 754 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, like we like I said, we all own 755 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: the various devices, and we all see the value and 756 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: and the limitations of each system. Um. I think I 757 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: think it really you know, if if, however you're going 758 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: about it, if you're dedicated to making the best possible 759 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: product or service that you that you possibly can, whether 760 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,240 Speaker 1: it's as a member of the community of the open 761 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: source world, or if it's you know, a closed system, 762 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 1: I think that is what's most important. And to me, 763 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: the whole open versus closed is just a general philosophy 764 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: that guides your your development process. It's not something that 765 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, I should definitely be you know, uh endorsed 766 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: or or or scorned. Well, it frustrates me listening to 767 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: people talk about it and seeing comments online from people 768 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: who are so devoted to one side or the other 769 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: that they will scream and call names and use profanity 770 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: to definite side and going. But I mean, I see, 771 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: I see arguments for both sides, and yeah, I think 772 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: are valid points for both. Yeah. And it's it is 773 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,919 Speaker 1: a dangerous thing because once you get once you become 774 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: a fan of a certain way of doing things, then uh, 775 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: it almost feels like if someone else praises a different 776 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: way of doing it that it's somehow an Yeah, it's 777 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,720 Speaker 1: an attack against what you like, which isn't necessarily the case. 778 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: It's yeah, no, it's definitely not fair. But it does 779 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 1: happen all the time. I see it all the time 780 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,439 Speaker 1: where someone will praise one system and someone else takes 781 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: that as Hey, you're saying that the system I like sucks, 782 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: and no, that's not what I said. I just said 783 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 1: that this system was also good. I didn't even mention 784 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: your system. Please don't yell at me trolls. So if 785 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: you want to know more about that, listen to our 786 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: podcast on how trolls work East Jonathan Strickland in the 787 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: operating system you like stinks? Right? Yeah? Okay, Well that 788 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: that's a good summary. This was fun. Well, guys, that 789 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: wraps up that classic episode. It sure was nice hearing 790 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: Chris's voice again, wasn't it. If you guys have any 791 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff, whether it's a technology, 792 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: a company, maybe there's a person I should cover, let 793 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: me know. Send me an email. The address is tech 794 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com, or you can 795 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: drop me a line on Facebook or Twitter. The handle 796 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: for both Facebook and Twitter is tech Stuff h s W. Also, 797 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: don't forget to follow us on Instagram. I'd love to 798 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: see you on there and I'll talk to you again 799 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: really soon. For more on this and thousands of other topics, 800 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: is it how stuff works dot com