1
00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:03,760
Speaker 1: Did you like it when you lived to I did,

2
00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,040
Speaker 1: and I so didn't expect to. I mean, I went

3
00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: from Berkeley with this huge Berkeley ship on my shoulder.

4
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,479
Speaker 1: I hate l A. I hate l A people, and

5
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,560
Speaker 1: I loved it almost instantly. It's a very easy place

6
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,400
Speaker 1: to live. I know, I don't. I don't know if

7
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,599
Speaker 1: it was Jimmy Stewart. There was some great movie star

8
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,560
Speaker 1: who was like, the thing about l A is that

9
00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:23,680
Speaker 1: you go out and you go for a swim when

10
00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,760
Speaker 1: you're twenty five, and you lay down on the sun

11
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,280
Speaker 1: lounger when you go back in the house you're eighty four.

12
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 1: It's so true. It's so true. It's like times past

13
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,159
Speaker 1: at all, and it's like, no, you're a hundred who

14
00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:45,040
Speaker 1: are not? You really are? Hello, I'm Mini driver. Welcome

15
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,400
Speaker 1: to Many Questions, Season two. I've always loved Pruce's question

16
00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,600
Speaker 1: that it was originally a nineteenth century parlor game where

17
00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,920
Speaker 1: players would ask each other thirty five questions aimed at

18
00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,920
Speaker 1: revealing the other player's true nature. It's just the scientific method, really.

19
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 1: In asking different people the same set of questions, you

20
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,760
Speaker 1: can make observations about which truths appeared to be universal.

21
00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,679
Speaker 1: I love this discipline, and it made me wonder, what

22
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,440
Speaker 1: if these questions were just the jumping off point, what

23
00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,920
Speaker 1: greater depths would be revealed if I asked these questions

24
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 1: as conversation starters with thought leaders and trailblazers across all

25
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,959
Speaker 1: these different disciplines. So I adapted prus questionnaire and I

26
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,680
Speaker 1: wrote my own seven questions that I personally think a

27
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,960
Speaker 1: pertinent to a person's story. They are when and where

28
00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,800
Speaker 1: were you happiest? What is the quality you like least

29
00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,399
Speaker 1: about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?

30
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 1: What question would you most like answered, What person, place,

31
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,480
Speaker 1: or experience has shaped you the most? What would be

32
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 1: your last meal? And can you tell me something in

33
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,800
Speaker 1: your life that's grown out of a personal disaster? And

34
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 1: I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that

35
00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,880
Speaker 1: I am honored and humble to have had the chance

36
00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,520
Speaker 1: to engage with. You may not hear their answers to

37
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,880
Speaker 1: all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to

38
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,360
Speaker 1: which questions felt closest to their experience or the most surprising,

39
00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:17,280
Speaker 1: or created the most fertile ground to connect my guest

40
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,240
Speaker 1: today on many questions, is food writer and revolutionary Ruth Miracle.

41
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 1: There are very few people who can articulate their passion

42
00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,840
Speaker 1: and point of view with as much clarity and humor.

43
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,640
Speaker 1: In two thousand and fifteen, she wrote a cookbook called

44
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,239
Speaker 1: My Kitchen Year, A hundred and thirty six recipes that

45
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,960
Speaker 1: saved my life. Any insights she shared about life and

46
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,079
Speaker 1: it's attending pain along with the recipes were a constant

47
00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,400
Speaker 1: companion to me in my kitchen and to millions of others.

48
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,919
Speaker 1: She was editor of the famed gourmet magazine in its

49
00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,079
Speaker 1: heyday until its very end. Just do yourself a favor

50
00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,359
Speaker 1: and googled David Foster Wallace's piece for that magazine entitled

51
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 1: Consider the Lobster. She has repeatedly asked us to look

52
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,200
Speaker 1: at food differently, to consider her food is made and

53
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,960
Speaker 1: the provenance of our ingredients. She began doing this at

54
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,640
Speaker 1: a time when ease and plasticity had become cornerstones of

55
00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,640
Speaker 1: home cooking. My other favorite thing about Ruth there are

56
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 1: many characters and disguise as she employed to avoid detection

57
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,920
Speaker 1: while working as a restaurant critic for The New York

58
00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 1: Times and for The l A Times. I Smell a

59
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,919
Speaker 1: TV show and I'm off to option this idea as

60
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:33,240
Speaker 1: soon as I have finished this. Where and when were

61
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,040
Speaker 1: you happiest? I am one of those people who, once

62
00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,080
Speaker 1: I got past my childhood, have been pretty happy. I mean,

63
00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 1: I think it's one of my great gifts in life

64
00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,120
Speaker 1: is that I am a generally happy person. I mean,

65
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,440
Speaker 1: I usually like where I am and who I'm with,

66
00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 1: and I'm one of those people who never wants to

67
00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 1: leave a party or you know, wherever I am, and

68
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,360
Speaker 1: it's a great gift to have that. But probably I

69
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,120
Speaker 1: loved being at Gourmet. I loved my staff. I love

70
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,280
Speaker 1: the people I work with. I love the feeling that

71
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 1: we were doing something consequential, that we were making a difference.

72
00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,880
Speaker 1: And it was also, you know, my son was ten

73
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,880
Speaker 1: and my husband had a job he really liked. We

74
00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,120
Speaker 1: had money for the first time in our lives, and

75
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,159
Speaker 1: we weren't worried about, you know, can we pay the rent?

76
00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,320
Speaker 1: And I was just happy in that job. And I learned,

77
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I've never really been a manager before, and

78
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,840
Speaker 1: I learned that there's something wonderful about having the ability

79
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 1: to pull a staff together and to figure out what

80
00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 1: made other people happy and how to do that. So

81
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,359
Speaker 1: you know, when I look back at my life, it

82
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,320
Speaker 1: was a great ten years. God. It's such a funny thing,

83
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,480
Speaker 1: isn't it. Like when you find yourself doing something you

84
00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,320
Speaker 1: love and then you also find that you're good at

85
00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,400
Speaker 1: something else he didn't know before that something's revealed in

86
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,600
Speaker 1: that happiness, another attribute is revealed. But I always think

87
00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,360
Speaker 1: there's like when something's going well in life, like everything's

88
00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,760
Speaker 1: wonderful with my son and everything's great with my partner,

89
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, God, damn it, something's going to funk up

90
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,560
Speaker 1: on the workfront because my three legged stool is just

91
00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 1: never going to be balanced. And those moments where it is,

92
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 1: where everything just seems to kind of level out, they

93
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,440
Speaker 1: are pockets of such wonder they are. And the other

94
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,360
Speaker 1: thing about that moment in life was I was doing

95
00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,479
Speaker 1: something that I really didn't know how to do, and

96
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,480
Speaker 1: I think that that is what sort of keeps you

97
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,080
Speaker 1: alive and young. I mean that sort of learning process.

98
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,200
Speaker 1: And that was wonderful too. I Mean there I was

99
00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,719
Speaker 1: in a completely new world for me and sort of

100
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,559
Speaker 1: navigating my way through it was that being an editor,

101
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,000
Speaker 1: was that the plot that you didn't know how to

102
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,760
Speaker 1: do well? I didn't know anything really about how to

103
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 1: run a magazine, how to be an editor, how to

104
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,400
Speaker 1: be a boss, I mean all of that. I mean

105
00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,760
Speaker 1: I've been a writer alone pretty much all my life.

106
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,719
Speaker 1: I've never been in charge of anything. And you know,

107
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,720
Speaker 1: the magazine world, you know, I mean, it's a newspaper person.

108
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,640
Speaker 1: You know, newspaper person. There's people are kind of like grubby.

109
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,279
Speaker 1: It's a grubby world and something I'm in this world

110
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,039
Speaker 1: of glamour. Everything about that job was completely new for me.

111
00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,159
Speaker 1: Was gool Conde nast. Yes. I think that was what

112
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,600
Speaker 1: was brilliant about that publishing house as well, was they

113
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,400
Speaker 1: were sort of I d perfectly unlikely people with the

114
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 1: continuance of that brand like that. I think was what

115
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,160
Speaker 1: made them so brilliant was that they would go, no,

116
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,080
Speaker 1: Root Ricle should be editing gourmet, and but she's never

117
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,200
Speaker 1: done it before. It doesn't matter, She'll figure it out.

118
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,720
Speaker 1: And I kept saying, you know, you're crazy. You don't

119
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,640
Speaker 1: want me for this. I don't know how to do it,

120
00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,720
Speaker 1: and so I knew how has just kept saying, I

121
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,000
Speaker 1: want you to do this, and I know you can

122
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,279
Speaker 1: do it. And the thing about PSI and the thing

123
00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,240
Speaker 1: that is truly gone forever is I think he was

124
00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,640
Speaker 1: the last publisher who truly thought that if you give

125
00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,279
Speaker 1: the public something of value, they will pay for it.

126
00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,200
Speaker 1: He was absolutely not cynical about who the audience was

127
00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,719
Speaker 1: and what you gave them. And he said, you know,

128
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,119
Speaker 1: what do you think is a great magazine? And I said,

129
00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,119
Speaker 1: it's a publication. It doesn't give people what they want.

130
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,800
Speaker 1: It gives them what they didn't know they want. And

131
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,560
Speaker 1: he said, yes, you're right about that. And I don't think.

132
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,200
Speaker 1: I mean today everybody does these focus groups trying to

133
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,280
Speaker 1: figure out, you know, how do we give the audience

134
00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,400
Speaker 1: what they want so they will pay for it. And

135
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,720
Speaker 1: so I had a bigger vision. He was a very

136
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 1: strange man, but he had a bigger vision of what

137
00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,880
Speaker 1: the media should provide to people. It's weird because it

138
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 1: is it is a service, but it is a creative service.

139
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,680
Speaker 1: It's the idea that you should only be led by

140
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 1: sort of. I don't think it should be the consumer

141
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,720
Speaker 1: that curates like That's the whole point is that lots

142
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,680
Speaker 1: of different things in I guess one would hope would

143
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 1: be curated and then you get to choose, as opposed

144
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,240
Speaker 1: to the job being what trendy or what like. You

145
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 1: said a focus group that on that day of the week,

146
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,160
Speaker 1: eight people out of the ten said this thing, But

147
00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 1: if you ask them the following week, it might well

148
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,120
Speaker 1: be different. And the problem with that is, I mean,

149
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,360
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I really fear for our democracy

150
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,440
Speaker 1: is that increase. Certainly, we're just hearing what we want

151
00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,840
Speaker 1: to hear. I mean, if you let the audience choose

152
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,160
Speaker 1: what they want to hear, they don't learn anything, you know,

153
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,960
Speaker 1: they get no new ideas. And that's where we are now, right,

154
00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, So you know the people who don't hear

155
00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 1: the other side, and you know the people on the

156
00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,040
Speaker 1: other side only hear what they want to hear. And

157
00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,040
Speaker 1: it's a very scary time. I think it's a crazy

158
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,840
Speaker 1: schism that again media is feeding into because they're not

159
00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 1: even trying to, I think, bridge the differences. It is

160
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,240
Speaker 1: such a chasm now that they're like, Okay, well we're

161
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 1: on this side, We're going to curate for our side,

162
00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 1: and the other side will curate for their side. I

163
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,720
Speaker 1: feel like that must have happened at some of the

164
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,800
Speaker 1: time in history, and that everything it's always some sort

165
00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,600
Speaker 1: of path that winds its way and balances out. You're

166
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,760
Speaker 1: very optimistic. I mean, I'm not saying that there isn't

167
00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,959
Speaker 1: the collateral damage of like lost generations, because I think

168
00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,360
Speaker 1: they probably will be. I mean, it's it's pretty dark

169
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,360
Speaker 1: right now, I've got to say, but I don't know.

170
00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,960
Speaker 1: I hope for the sake of my kid that it

171
00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,640
Speaker 1: works out, but a journey continues as opposed to it

172
00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,720
Speaker 1: being this dead end that it feels like right now.

173
00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,280
Speaker 1: I hope you're right, but I just keep thinking about

174
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 1: my father used to talk about his father who read

175
00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 1: eight newspapers every day and he read right across the

176
00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,920
Speaker 1: political spectrum. I try and do that, and it makes

177
00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,080
Speaker 1: my blood boil and makes me feel sick. And that's

178
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,160
Speaker 1: maybe you know where this whole notion of being a

179
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 1: bit of a snowflake comes from. I think we have

180
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,000
Speaker 1: to have a stronger stomach and really start metabolizing what

181
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,720
Speaker 1: all these different thoughts are about how we should live.

182
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,000
Speaker 1: I totally agree with you, but I'm with you. I mean,

183
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,200
Speaker 1: my husband's very good about it, and he reads everything

184
00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,400
Speaker 1: and listens to everything, and then I just go, how

185
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,880
Speaker 1: can you listen to that? I know, I know my

186
00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,120
Speaker 1: boyfriend is the same, He reads all of it and

187
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,960
Speaker 1: then that is then synthesized through you know, the prisms

188
00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,199
Speaker 1: of him. But it requires balanced intellectual acuity that I

189
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,920
Speaker 1: do not have. You know, I don't read so Gari.

190
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,040
Speaker 1: It is astonishing the amount of different things that you've

191
00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,240
Speaker 1: done in your life. It really is like I was

192
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,319
Speaker 1: just looking at of your career and it's amazing how

193
00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,200
Speaker 1: many different things you've done. This is off, sort of

194
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,319
Speaker 1: slightly off topic, but do you find that when you

195
00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,040
Speaker 1: would finish one thing that even if it was hard,

196
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,800
Speaker 1: even if there was a fallow period, did you always

197
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,640
Speaker 1: have a sense that something else would be coming and

198
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,520
Speaker 1: that you just had to hold your course and just

199
00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,719
Speaker 1: mine whatever this empty moment was and it would lead

200
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,640
Speaker 1: you into the next thing I did. And if it didn't,

201
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,360
Speaker 1: then I would you go out and actively try and

202
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,040
Speaker 1: make it happen. But you know, I feel really fortunate because,

203
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,760
Speaker 1: you know, having grown up with a really crazy mother,

204
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,760
Speaker 1: I saw that how my father stayed saying was by

205
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,400
Speaker 1: always doing work that mattered to him. And so I

206
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,840
Speaker 1: grew up with this very strong sense of work will

207
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,280
Speaker 1: save you, and no matter what is going on in

208
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,120
Speaker 1: your life, if you do work that gives you a

209
00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,200
Speaker 1: sense of purpose, then you'll be okay. So I've always

210
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,559
Speaker 1: gone to that place. I mean, even at the most

211
00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,920
Speaker 1: despairing moments in my life, it's like, okay, go to

212
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,520
Speaker 1: work and with that for you would be writing. You

213
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,520
Speaker 1: would just go and just apply the seat of your

214
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,720
Speaker 1: pants of the chair and just write. Not necessarily, I

215
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,720
Speaker 1: mean there's writing, but sometimes it's just you know, get

216
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:16,400
Speaker 1: a job, bussing tables, you know, anything, just do something.

217
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,839
Speaker 1: It is the only thing that will bring you back.

218
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:29,200
Speaker 1: So what a person, place, or experience most altered your life. Well,

219
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,040
Speaker 1: I come back to my mother. I mean I think,

220
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, my mother has really been the dominant influence

221
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,320
Speaker 1: in my life, for both good and bad. My mother

222
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,480
Speaker 1: was bipolar, and she literally never know who she was

223
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,080
Speaker 1: going to be when she woke up in the morning.

224
00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 1: I mean, she she went through really wild mood changes.

225
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,439
Speaker 1: And I literally wake up every morning grateful that I'm

226
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,600
Speaker 1: not my mother, grateful for sanity. And I think it's

227
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,319
Speaker 1: the thing that has been the most defining thing of

228
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,679
Speaker 1: my life is that relationship with this woman who made

229
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,600
Speaker 1: the life of everyone around her really difficult. But in

230
00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,080
Speaker 1: the end, it just made me so grateful to be me,

231
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,440
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, she was incredibly intelligent, and you know,

232
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,560
Speaker 1: I mean Bertrand Russell asked her to marry him. And wow,

233
00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,280
Speaker 1: I have fifty years of letters between my mother and

234
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,640
Speaker 1: Bertie Russell. If he published things, well, I mean they're

235
00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,160
Speaker 1: mostly personal, you know, but every once in a while

236
00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,120
Speaker 1: there's something. And she actually took me to meet him

237
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,559
Speaker 1: when I was twelve. Did you know who he was?

238
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,880
Speaker 1: Did that? I mean at twelve, I can't imagine that. Oh,

239
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, I knew who he was because they talked

240
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,880
Speaker 1: about him all the time, and my father always talked

241
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,440
Speaker 1: about When Russell was in New York giving a series

242
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,000
Speaker 1: of lectures, he stayed with my family and he apparently

243
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,920
Speaker 1: had come. I was only a baby, but he thought

244
00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,800
Speaker 1: I was older. He'd sort of got in his head

245
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,360
Speaker 1: that I was three, And he came with all these

246
00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,640
Speaker 1: stories he had made up for a child, and my

247
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,679
Speaker 1: father said, and because you were too young, he told

248
00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,360
Speaker 1: them to me. Here I am with the greatest mind

249
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,640
Speaker 1: of Virginia Ration and he's telling me children's stories. Wow,

250
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,040
Speaker 1: so I did know who he was. So your mom

251
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,720
Speaker 1: was she an academic? But now she my mother got

252
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,240
Speaker 1: a PhD at this alt one when she was nineteen

253
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,760
Speaker 1: because of her bipolar and she started things and she

254
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,680
Speaker 1: never finished them. She had a million projects she started

255
00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,760
Speaker 1: that never finished. And then as the disease sort of

256
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,840
Speaker 1: took hold more and more, she had these moments of

257
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,440
Speaker 1: incredible grandiosity where she would blow everything up. But she

258
00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,360
Speaker 1: also had a great capacity for fun when she was

259
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,200
Speaker 1: in the middle place or in a place where she

260
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,160
Speaker 1: was neither you lying in bed for months reading the

261
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,560
Speaker 1: same book over and over, or you know, out there

262
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,600
Speaker 1: having shopping spreece. Did you always know that it was

263
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,080
Speaker 1: a thing that was happening to her? Did you know

264
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,880
Speaker 1: that that wasn't the fundament of who your mother was,

265
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,040
Speaker 1: that that was this thing that was happening to her.

266
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,800
Speaker 1: As I got older, I did. I don't think I

267
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,719
Speaker 1: knew it when I was very small. It must have

268
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,880
Speaker 1: been so confusing as a little child, you know, as

269
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,000
Speaker 1: I got old her, I mean, my mother was one

270
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 1: of the first people to be taking lithium. I mean

271
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,720
Speaker 1: she took ten years before it was approved, and I mean,

272
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,880
Speaker 1: I will never forget she had basically a nervous breakdown,

273
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 1: and I called her psychiatrist and said, look, she's been

274
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,520
Speaker 1: seeing you for five years and she's worse than she's

275
00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 1: ever been. I was twelve, and he said, this new

276
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,080
Speaker 1: field called psychopharmacology, and I'm going to send your mother

277
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,040
Speaker 1: to see one of them. And I will never forget

278
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,560
Speaker 1: my mother coming home and saying, you can't imagine what

279
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 1: relief it is to be told that it's not my fault.

280
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,560
Speaker 1: You know, she set up in an analysis for all

281
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 1: these years where people have said, you know, you're doing

282
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 1: this because you hate your mother, You're doing this for

283
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 1: this reason or that, and she said, even if they

284
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,440
Speaker 1: can't cure me, just the relief of being told that

285
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 1: it's happening to me, that it isn't me is enormous.

286
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure that must have been a huge relief,

287
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,520
Speaker 1: But that's a lot. At twelve, I remember reading he

288
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,480
Speaker 1: said that she just was like horrible cook, which I'm

289
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,520
Speaker 1: sure was to do with like the way that she

290
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 1: was actually why but the fact that she was a

291
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 1: horrible cook, which made you into this extraordinary cook. I

292
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 1: was thinking this, did your love food come from a

293
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,440
Speaker 1: lack of its sort of preparation and provision or was

294
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,960
Speaker 1: what did it happen? Later? I have always loved food,

295
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:21,920
Speaker 1: and I think part of it was that One of

296
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,840
Speaker 1: the ways I connected to my father was that he

297
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,960
Speaker 1: and I would walk New York on weekends and we

298
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 1: would go to these food neighborhoods, you know. And he

299
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,000
Speaker 1: took me to Yorktown. He was German, and we go

300
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 1: to Yorktown and it was like he found home in

301
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 1: the food. And then we went to Spanish Harlem and

302
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,360
Speaker 1: we went to the Lower East Side. And I always

303
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 1: sort of understood food as I mean, I loved it,

304
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,240
Speaker 1: and I loved to eat, and I love to cook,

305
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 1: you know. And I grew up in Greenwich Village, so

306
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,040
Speaker 1: the kids who went to PS forty one with me,

307
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,880
Speaker 1: it was like a real mix of you know, there

308
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 1: were Japanese kids and Italian kids, and so I loved

309
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,560
Speaker 1: going to their homes and eating what they're there's made.

310
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 1: But I always thought of food as much more than

311
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 1: just something to eat. I always thought of it as

312
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,280
Speaker 1: really emotional, and it was that it was about history

313
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,320
Speaker 1: and culture. And I discovered M. F. K. Fisher's writing

314
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 1: when I was really young, and and she sort of

315
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,640
Speaker 1: soft food in a way that was bigger than just recipes.

316
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 1: So I've always been comfortable in the kitchen. I've just

317
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 1: always liked. You know, when I don't know what else

318
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:40,320
Speaker 1: to do, I go into the kitchen. My next question

319
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 1: is what question would you most like? Onset? I think

320
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: the thing that I'm most curious about, I mean, is

321
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,880
Speaker 1: there a purpose to life? Or is it all just random?

322
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:52,920
Speaker 1: And I and I guess in some ways, I'm sort

323
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,040
Speaker 1: of is there a God? But it's bigger than that.

324
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,600
Speaker 1: It's like, do we just have to be good for

325
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 1: our own sense of doing the right thing? Or is

326
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,480
Speaker 1: there is there some bigger reason? I mean, don't you

327
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 1: wonder about oh God? Yes, all the time, and have

328
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,600
Speaker 1: written about it quite a lot recently as well, since

329
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,480
Speaker 1: my mother died. I've been obsessed, it's not the right word,

330
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,719
Speaker 1: but really preoccupied with this notion of is meaning in

331
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,879
Speaker 1: life assigned? And is it assigned by us? Because I

332
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,760
Speaker 1: have a feeling that in this emotionless like the universe

333
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,600
Speaker 1: is so beautiful and so energetically driven, but it feels

334
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,679
Speaker 1: like there isn't intervention. There isn't an intervention when something

335
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,000
Speaker 1: that we perceive as terrible is about to happen. I

336
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,400
Speaker 1: don't think there is anything interfering with our human experience,

337
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,600
Speaker 1: but it does feel like we decide what the meaning is,

338
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:48,040
Speaker 1: but most people want to believe that that's not the case.

339
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,480
Speaker 1: I think it's because it's frightening. I think because death

340
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,840
Speaker 1: is utterly terrifying. I think it is at the back

341
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 1: of our minds all the time, this notion of there

342
00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 1: is a finite amount of time that we are here,

343
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 1: there is a clock ticking, and the idea of there

344
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,200
Speaker 1: being a parental force and figure, which I'm not saying

345
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 1: I don't believe in on some level that there is

346
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 1: a source energy that is bigger than us that we

347
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,600
Speaker 1: can choose to be a part of. I just think

348
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,879
Speaker 1: that this human thing, this physical reality, is purely experiential,

349
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,040
Speaker 1: and that us being good or being evil is up

350
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 1: to us. I don't know that there's like a greater

351
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,880
Speaker 1: meaning because it feels so much like it's just consciousness

352
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,439
Speaker 1: is kind of experiencing itself. It's like a flow that

353
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,639
Speaker 1: you can either be in or be out of, and

354
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 1: the physical body bit is going to end. But perha

355
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,800
Speaker 1: tending your soul, tending your spirit, perhaps that's the that's

356
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,359
Speaker 1: as much meaning as I can find. But it could

357
00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,359
Speaker 1: be that could also just still be an expression of

358
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,919
Speaker 1: my grief. I don't know. It's really hard, and I

359
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,560
Speaker 1: feel like it gets harder all the time because we're

360
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,200
Speaker 1: making such a mess of the world as human beings.

361
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 1: I know. I mean it must be strange as well

362
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 1: because you've also really been like revolutionary in an area,

363
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 1: like you know, you say that you were part of

364
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,119
Speaker 1: this generation who was raised to kind of believe that

365
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 1: they were going to get married and be taken care

366
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: of by a man, and you just expressly went out

367
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,880
Speaker 1: and did something radical and different, not just in your

368
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 1: own life, but then sort of affecting a whole movement

369
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 1: around this particular thing. So it's amazing because you see

370
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 1: what it's like to actually affect change but not enough change.

371
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 1: So man, I sort of have this feeling that we

372
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,119
Speaker 1: have lived through this moment and I see the world

373
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,160
Speaker 1: food first, so I can describe it in food terms,

374
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter how you describe it. I mean,

375
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,440
Speaker 1: there was kind of a moment after World War Two

376
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 1: when we as human beings had the opportunity to make

377
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,879
Speaker 1: life on earth pretty wonderful. We've conquered so many of

378
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 1: the things that had made life miserable for most human

379
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,199
Speaker 1: beings for most of human history. We've become comfortable for

380
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,560
Speaker 1: the first time. I mean, we weren't constantly being eaten

381
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 1: up by insects, and we weren't you always cold or

382
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 1: always hot. The middle class was ascendant for the first time.

383
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 1: Ordinary people were living decent lives, and it looked like

384
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 1: everybody's children were going to have better lives than they did.

385
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 1: And you know, we had antibiotics, and we were just

386
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 1: we were conquering disease. And you know, in food, we

387
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 1: actually had the ability to feed most people. We could

388
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 1: conquer hunger. And there was this moment when it really

389
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 1: looked like the human possibility was extraordinary. And then we

390
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,479
Speaker 1: let it all go to hell. And what did we do.

391
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 1: We've destroyed the climate, We've waged more war, We've made

392
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 1: income inequality bigger than it's ever been before. You know,

393
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 1: we've got this world where half the people were starving

394
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 1: in the other half of our beasts. You know, this

395
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 1: moment of promise, we just let it slip through our fingers.

396
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 1: And you know, in terms of food, we let our

397
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 1: food become increasingly industrialized. We've let you know, in this country,

398
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 1: six out of ten people have food related chronic diseases. So,

399
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like living in Berkeley in the

400
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: seventies when we sort of saw what was happening to

401
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: the food supply and we saw, you know, that climate

402
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,359
Speaker 1: change was on the horizon, and we didn't fix it

403
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,479
Speaker 1: when we had the opportunity. So um, I find that

404
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 1: incredibly frustrating that we should have we should have created

405
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 1: more change, we should have stopped the future that we

406
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 1: now have in our hands, and we didn't. And you know,

407
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 1: there are million reasons for it, mostly political, but you know,

408
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 1: we we let you know, all our resources get exploited

409
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 1: in a terrible way. And I'm ashamed of it. I mean,

410
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm ashamed of my generation that we didn't do better. Sorry,

411
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: that's really depressing, but it's not. You know, it's interesting,

412
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: like that's the fatal flaw of I would say, of

413
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: being human. But I mean, I've got to say it's

414
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: really men. I mean, it is like if we had

415
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: shared power equally through all this time, I would take

416
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: responsibility or have women take responsibility. Posh, really, but it's not.

417
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,880
Speaker 1: It's been man driven by agreed in a resistance to evolve.

418
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 1: But you know, Darwin was right, it's like evolved or die,

419
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 1: that's how it goes. I think you did a lot

420
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 1: I think you did an enormous amount. I don't think

421
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 1: that any of that is lost, And if anything, it

422
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 1: creates a blueprint that if it's not too late, we

423
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 1: have plenty of examples of how people can affect change

424
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 1: in this world. Look how quickly we came up with

425
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: a vaccine for COVID. Wasn't it amazing? Just look at that?

426
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: And I know, you know, I know that we had

427
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: been working on coronavirus vaccines like that predated the COVID strain.

428
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 1: But still, when all these people came together, look what

429
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 1: we did in a year. And that's what's so frustrating.

430
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 1: I mean, we have that ability, We have these giant

431
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 1: brains that we have been using in the wrong way,

432
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: and it is it is really frustrating that we have

433
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 1: this capability, and look at the world we've allowed to happen.

434
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 1: We're trying to fix it. We're trying to fix it.

435
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: So what's the quality you like least about yourself. I'm

436
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: fear full, and I'm squeamish. I'm horribly embarrassingly squeamish about

437
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: what kinds of things like blood, you know. I mean

438
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: I used to be afraid that I couldn't be a mother,

439
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: because what if my kid cut himself and I fainted?

440
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: Did you have a big giant sheet up when you

441
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: were giving birth so that you couldn't see any of

442
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: what was happening down by your apron pocket? No? I

443
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: mean the amasically back. Giving birth is what I didn't know.

444
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 1: I'd always been afraid of it. And then you get

445
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: all these hormones that make it's all easy and a

446
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: good old oxytocin. Really, so you're squeamish and you're fearful.

447
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,719
Speaker 1: How is that when you're cooking? Like, how do you

448
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: handle sort of butchery? Well, butchery is fine, but you know,

449
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: I if I cut myself and it bleeds really badly,

450
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: it's not pretty. So it's connected to your own mortality

451
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: or the mortality of your No, I can faint taking

452
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: the cats to the vet. Wow, I've always been that way,

453
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: and it's it's very embarrassing. I hate it. I just

454
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: hate it from it makes you very empathetic to people

455
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: who if you see someone who is feeling fearful in

456
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: that way, it probably makes you very understanding of that.

457
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: It does, And of course, the the other thing I

458
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 1: have conquered this I wrote about it a lot was

459
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: I'm phobic, and I was very phobic about driving over

460
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: bridges and driving on you know, the eight lane highways

461
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 1: of California make me crazy. Do you get into the

462
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: root of like what you think that comes from of

463
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: the phobic nature? I think it's a way of tripping

464
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: yourself up. I mean I've never been quite sure. I

465
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 1: mean the only way I conquered it was by just

466
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: facing it and just refusing to let it stop me.

467
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: And I've written about it a lot, and I'm stunned

468
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 1: at how many people are phobic. You know, maybe it's

469
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: a way of not facing other fears, you know, wheel fears,

470
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: or maybe it's a way of metabolizing them. And actually,

471
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's a very literal thing to look at

472
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: a freeway with six or eight lanes, and that can

473
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: then become the physical embodiment of deep affears that you're right,

474
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: can't be named. And there is certainly something really scary

475
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: about it, terrifying. I mean, I try driving in London,

476
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: where the roads were built for one small horse and carriage,

477
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: and now you've got two range Rover drivers with battling entitlement.

478
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: It's a nice What did you write about the phobic

479
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: thing in I want to read that. I wrote about

480
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: it in my first book, Tender at the Bone, And

481
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: what surprised me was just how many people that you

482
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: would never expect to be phobic will come up to

483
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: me and say, oh, that thing about the bridges, I

484
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: so understand it. Wow. Tunnels terrifying, I mean, And the

485
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: thing about tunnels is you can't get out, you know,

486
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: once you once you've committed to that tunnel, you're in it. Yes,

487
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: And then you think, like, what if I did something

488
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: really terrible? What if I turned the wheel? You know?

489
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm glad. I'm glad that you resist turning

490
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: the wheel and that you write about it. I do

491
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: think it's it's so interesting how our fears play out,

492
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: you know, the ones that we don't name, and we're

493
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: not trained to examine and to give a name to

494
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: these things that really frighten us. Like people love to

495
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: go and see horror films, and I'm convinced it's just

496
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: because it's like it's a way for them to actually

497
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: scream at the fear and the terror of what it

498
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: is to be alive. Sometimes. But I will tell you,

499
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: you couldn't pay me to see a horror film. I

500
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: think the last horror film myself was Psycho when I

501
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: was eight, and I still won't get in a shower

502
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: if I'm home a home. No that it's hideous. I

503
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: hate them, I absolutely hate them. Life is frightening enough,

504
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: Like there are enough tunnels and bridges though we actually

505
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: have to go through. And what would be your last meal? Well,

506
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: you know, being a food person, it's a question I

507
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: get asked a lot, you know, every time I answer it,

508
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: I answer it different. But I think that's okay because

509
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: the ending is maybe always changing, but today it being

510
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: this sort of weird in between season. It would make

511
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: me happiest right this minute. If if I were going

512
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: to die an hour from now, what I would want

513
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: right now is one perfectly ripe peach, ah stone fruit.

514
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: It is hard to get a perfect peach, you know,

515
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: but I mean really juicy, the kind of peach that

516
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: you have to go into the bathtub with all your

517
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: clothes off to eat. You know, it just drips down.

518
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: You know, the idea that they're so rare and you

519
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: know they're fragrant, they're beautiful, and it's such an elusive flavor.

520
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I've had maybe in my whole

521
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: life ten perfectly ripe peaches, but I would really love

522
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: one right now. I like that that's the holy grail

523
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: of food. It is like the perfect peach. I would

524
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: put money on it being in Italy or Georgia. Actually,

525
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: you can get a really good peach in a good

526
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: year in California. Frog Hollow Farm grows really good peaches

527
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: up in northern California. But the thing is that you know,

528
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: really perfect peaches don't travel, so no commercial people grow

529
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 1: them because you know they're they're perfect when they're pipped,

530
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: and then the next day they're not perfect anymore, so

531
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: they're not a commercial product. I like that, though, it's

532
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: like you have to go and find it. It requires

533
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: your desire and lack of it being kind of immediately accessible.

534
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: I think that's probably also part of that. So maybe

535
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: you'd have to go on a walk to find your peach.

536
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: In this hour, you'd spend four or five minutes walking

537
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 1: to find the peach, pick it, eat it, and then

538
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: pop off, and I'm happy, happy to the tree. Can

539
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: you tell me about something that has grown out of

540
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: a personal disaster. I've always been afraid that I wouldn't

541
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: be a good mother. I'm not a person who particularly

542
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: loves babies. I like children, and their babies I find

543
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: kind of boring. I was really scared that it would

544
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: be hard. And then we adopted a baby. Oh you did, Yes,

545
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: that's right, and then the birth mother changed her mind.

546
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: I can't I just can't imagine that pain. It was.

547
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: I didn't recognize the person that I had become because

548
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: I loved that little girl so much that even as

549
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: I was walking her at night when she couldn't fall asleep,

550
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: and I was like, somebody take this child for me.

551
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: And I was like, I will kill anyone who tries

552
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: to take this child from me. And I wanted to

553
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: leave the country with her and give up my life

554
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: and leave the country. Then I miraculously became pregnant, and

555
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: I am convinced that the two are connected. And you

556
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: had trouble conceiving in your life, yes, And we had

557
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: done everything. I had never been pregnant, wow, I had.

558
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: We had gone through every kind of you know, in

559
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 1: vitro fertilization, years of trying to get pregnant, never been pregnant,

560
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: and so we adopt Gav and I genuinely think that

561
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: something happened with that, you know, the experience of having

562
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 1: her and loving her so much, and then you know

563
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: having her taken away, which was just devastating, and you know,

564
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: I would wake up thinking that she was crying for

565
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: me and wondering why I never came. And then literally

566
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: a month later, out of nowhere, I'm suddenly pregnant and

567
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: I was forty one years old, and our whole story

568
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: had been so public in Los Angeles. I mean, actually

569
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: L A Law did all they somebody heard it and

570
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: they wrote a whole episode of l A Law kind

571
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: of based on this, and it was so public that

572
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: I didn't even want to go to the drug store

573
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: and get a pregnancy test. I mean I actually said.

574
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: I was with some friends the night before and everybody

575
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: was drinking, and I said, I'm not going to drink tonight.

576
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: And my friend Robin said why and I said, I

577
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: think I'm pregnant. And she said, how late are you?

578
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: I said one day? And she said I thought you

579
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: had lost it completely. I thought, okay, just losing Gav

580
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: put her over over the top, poor thing. And the

581
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: next day I went and I went to the supermarket

582
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: and I bought a pregnancy test and I went into

583
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: the bathroom at on my way to work. And so

584
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: I'm at the l A times and I'm in there

585
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: and those now it's pretty quick, but then you had

586
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: to juggle all these things. I'm in one of those stalls,

587
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: juggling all this and sure enough it comes up that

588
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: I'm pregnant. And I call my gynecologist and say, you know,

589
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: I just did a pregnancy test and I'm pregnant. You

590
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: know those things, aren't it all accurate. Don't believe it.

591
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: You're not pregnant. There's no way. Come down here and

592
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: I'll give you a real test. And I go down there.

593
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: She said, oh my god, you are pregnant. But you

594
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: can't tell anyone because the chances that you're going to

595
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: actually carry this baby to term. She said, you're one

596
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: day pregnant. I made It's like, you can't tell anyone

597
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,959
Speaker 1: till you're at least three months pregnant. And I immediately

598
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: go to my husband's office. He was then the news

599
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: director of the CBS station, and I'd never stopped to

600
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: see him before. I stopped in on my way home

601
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: from the doctor, and I said, you know, Michael, you

602
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: can't tell anyone. And Michael immediately turns added shouts to

603
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: the newsroom. She's Oh, my goodness, what a joy, What

604
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: a joy that must have been. And then I had

605
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: the easiest pregnancy. I mean I was ever sick for

606
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: a moment. I worked until the day it was born.

607
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: I never had more energy. I thought, God, if i'd

608
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: know him being pregnant was like this, I would have

609
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: been pregnant a hundred times. No, wonder if all Kennedy

610
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: had all those kids. Wow, how amazing. I know. And

611
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: please feel free to say, no, I don't want to

612
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: talk about that. But did you ever have any contact

613
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: with Gaby afterwards? No? And we were sure we would.

614
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: I mean we're absolutely sure that. I mean we fought

615
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: this incord. I mean it was it was a crazy story,

616
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: but I feel like, I mean, this is I'm not

617
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,959
Speaker 1: a spiritual person, but I feel like we felt we

618
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: had a purpose in her life had we given her

619
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: back immediately. I mean, she was going to be the

620
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: child of an unwin mother who was not very motherly.

621
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: And because we went to court, the mother called her

622
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: longtime boyfriend, who she had not told she was pregnant.

623
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: Because she had dreams of a better life, and so

624
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: she'd come to this country to get an abortion, but

625
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,239
Speaker 1: by the time she got enough money, she didn't have

626
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: enough money to have an abortion. Anyway, they got married

627
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: and he was like a lovely man, and so I

628
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: feel like we our purpose in her life was we

629
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: gave her a family. I think about her all the time,

630
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: and I'm glad she got to grow up with her

631
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: biological parents. I hope they stayed together, and I hope

632
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: she's had a good life. But I feel like she

633
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: was very loved for the first four months of her life.

634
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: And I think that matters to Oh my god, yes

635
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: it does, and your basic architecture, it does, and you know,

636
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: it's sort of right back to the beginning, that notion

637
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: of purpose, you know, and self sacrifice. And sometimes it's

638
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: sometimes it looks like you're getting a raw deal, but

639
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 1: I don't know. Invariably there's something in that doesn't mean

640
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: it's not incredibly sad, but you've got your nick. What

641
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: a miracle. I mean, yes, it was a miracle. It

642
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: worked out the end, and I hope it did for

643
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: her too. I hope so too. Oh Ruth, and thank

644
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: you so much for talking to me. It's been such

645
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: an immense pleasure. Likewise, I'm so inspired by your life

646
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: and all the things that you've done, and it makes

647
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: me just want to do more. So this was this

648
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: was so easy. I mean, you know, I've never met

649
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: you before, and I feel like I'm talking to an

650
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: old friend. So thank you. Ruth has two more recent

651
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: cookbooks entitled Garlic and Sapphires and Tender at the Bone.

652
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: And from that particular book, I can only tell you

653
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: make the lemons who flay. Just finished listening to this,

654
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: and then go and make the lemons who flay Many questions.

655
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: Is hosted and written by Me Mini Driver, supervising producer

656
00:34:54,040 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: Aaron Kaufman, Producer Morgan Levoy, Research assistant Marissa Round. Original

657
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: music Sorry Baby by Mini Driver, Additional music by Aaron Kaufman.

658
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks to Jim Nikolay,

659
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Annicke Oppenheim

660
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: at w kPr de La Pescador, Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg,

661
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: and for constantly solicited tech support, Henry Driver