WEBVTT - Lindsay Graham of American History Tellers 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:07.200 Hi, it's Maddie, host of Access Podcast. Welcome to the show, 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:12.119 and I like to just congratulate new producer, see because 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.360 you've booked probably the biggest guests in the history of 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:20.000 our show, Senator Lindsey Graham's kind all right now, it's 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:22.520 Lindsay grahams different. Lindsay Graham's with an a the host 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:26.280 of American Tellers. I love history. If you like history 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:28.520 and what a geek out with another person that likes history, 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.840 then check this show out today. During the Second World War, 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.519 the United States, the UK, and the so Union came 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.600 together in a grand alliance to defeat Germany and Japan. 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:42.160 But within two years of that piece, the West would 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:44.360 be locked in a conflict with the Soviet Union that 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:50.600 threatened to destroy the entire world. This was the Cold War. Now, Lindsey, 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:52.680 can I just say that I take a lot of 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.000 pride and show prep. I was an executive producer for 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:58.880 a lot of talk shows um across the country. It's 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.040 something I pride myself in. Do you know how hard 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.400 it is to prep for a guest whose name is 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:06.600 the same as a famous senator and is so like 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:09.400 it's not a common name as well? You're you're like 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.960 impossible to find information on sir. Yes, a Google and 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:17.360 I have an arrangement that that secures my privacy. Uh yeah, 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.000 it's it's it's horrible. Uh the my s c O 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:23.680 options are really low. Have you ever thought of just 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.160 saying I'm going to change my name to Larry. No, 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.920 because Larry is a horrible name. I agree with you 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.759 on that. Sorry, Larry's out there. I love you as listeners, 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.720 but your name is not you don't hear. It's like 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.120 one of those names like you just don't hear anymore. 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.840 Or Barry. Nobody's saying Barry anymore either, or Harold or 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:47.160 or Franklin or all these great old timey names names. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:51.600 like Maud. I love Maud anyway, Mr Graham, Uh so 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.320 I'm interested to learn about you because I mean I 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:58.440 literally went LinkedIn. I mean I found Lindsay Graham's, but 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.120 I don't think any of them were you. I tried Twitter, Facebook. Uh, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.560 my producer. I yelled at her this morning because it 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.920 was like, you can't find anything. Meanwhile, I didn't find 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:08.840 anything either, so I didn't I didn't really yell at her. 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.600 She's back there, but but tell me about you, because 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:14.480 you know this podcast is for me. I'm a history 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.639 like fanatic. I spend at least an hour a day 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:21.240 reading something historical. I watched the History Channel. I studied 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.280 it in college. So what is your background and you 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.679 know that you know to get into this hosting this 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:31.760 wonderful historical podcast. Um, well, my background is largely an 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.359 audio that's you know how I got here. So I've 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.440 owned a little recording studio. I've produced music and composed 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.520 music for years and uns years, but then we got 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.440 into audiobooks and and then podcasts. Uh. And that's how 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.760 I met her Non from the Wondering Network. Um. They 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.040 put out are my first podcast, which is a fictional 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:57.400 show called Terms, and Terms kind of gets more to 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.480 the center of this question because I have always been 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.600 a historical and political creature. Those are my interests and uh, 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.480 and so we created a podcast that kind of features 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.760 that as a central theme. Um. I've also taught history. 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:15.000 I was a history major before, as I was a 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:20.560 psychology major before I was a business major. Um and um, yeah, 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.519 it's just always been a passion. And so to be 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.240 able to combine my love of being a studio rat 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:32.519 and also teaching and learning about history. It's fantastic. This podcast, 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.200 like most of the podcast that I'd say, all the 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:39.040 podcasts that Wandering puts out, it's just it's produced so well, 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:43.400 and you know, I feel that it's part of this 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.400 new wave of podcasting that is, you know, it's where 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.400 podcasting is going, you know, really well produced and really informative. 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:51.880 And you know, I'm a firm believer that podcasts, you know, 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.640 when they're done right, they create empathy and then they 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.040 they take you to a place the same place that 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.120 you go when you read a book. You know that 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.240 that little person the spot between you and the in 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.480 the content. And and I feel like there's might be 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.480 hope for the new generation because I teach it. I 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:09.560 teach at a university, and I feel like their knowledge 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.200 of history is really bad. And do you look at it, 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:13.920 so do you look at this podcast is as a 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:18.000 way of of of making history more accessible to uh 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.640 some folks and maybe maybe a book isn't their friend. Yeah, absolutely, 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.640 I mean I think it's just a fact of the 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.400 universe that that we have are a screen culture now 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.640 and um that takes up time and and just also 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.680 develops a different taste for for media podcasts, I think 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.800 are are as you indicate a kind of a bridge 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.960 to a previous more um solitary, but still very connected 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:50.200 method of consuming information and um and developing empathy. I 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.600 think it would be our number one goal you have 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.560 if to understand and appreciate history. And it's certainly not 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:00.920 dates and facts, it's it's people. You know. The enterprise 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.160 here is just trying to investigate what it was like 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.440 to live in this time and what it means for 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:08.640 for you to be living in the time we're in. 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.120 Uh So, if we if we can communicate empathy, I 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.440 would say that that that we've done our job really well. 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.720 And I would say this it also your podcast help 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:23.960 me tap into memories. Uh I. Well, while I'm teaching, 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.520 I will often make references to my college students and 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.240 realize they don't know what that means. They don't know 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:31.599 what it is to call someone and get a busy signal. 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:33.320 They don't know what it's like to wait at home 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.280 for the phone to ring, and they don't know what 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:39.839 it was like two be deathly afraid that the Soviet 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.520 Union was going to nuke our asses, and and as 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.720 a kid, that was my biggest fear. I mean, it 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.760 was a huge fear. And I and and it's just 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.240 even today, like when we talk about the nuclear threat 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.480 coming from from North Korea, I kind of forget, and 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:56.520 I think a lot of people forget, like that was 0:05:56.600 --> 0:06:00.520 a real fear that we all had for a long time. Yeah, 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.360 absolutely real. Um, you know one of the reasons why 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.200 I wanted to do the Cold War first as our 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:11.560 first little series. Um, these are these feelings, these fears, 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:16.760 these aspirations. Uh, they're they're largely forgotten. Um. We lived 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:21.560 in a time that was strange and and violent and um, 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:28.200 just on the precipice of destruction for decades and UM 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:34.920 that's gone away, thankfully. But today's headlines you cannot you 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.000 can't draw, you know, not draw a parallel between what's 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.920 going on today and then and um, you know, it's 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.480 it's almost the worst sort of nostalgia for us forty 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.640 five year olds who grew up uh in the eighties. 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.640 I just wonder, you know, what if what if Kennedy 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.599 tweeted some of the stuff that our president tweets during 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.920 the Cuban missile crisis. You know, just there's all these 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.360 like Wow, I look at history. But and I think, well, 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.520 nobody in the past would have done these kind of things. 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:07.839 But I don't know that. I don't know if they 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.240 would have if they had access to Twitter. If if 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.440 they would have, you know, made been more provocative, then 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.360 then they seemed to me looking at them in history books. No, well, yeah, 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:17.960 I think you're right. I don't know if Kennedy would 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.040 have uh, you know, tweeted. I mean I think I 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.440 think he was a statesman and and and um uh 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.760 and careful and certainly media savvy. So um yeah, No, 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.720 well I was thinking, you know, even there's certainly some firebrands, 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.560 uh you know that that probably would have left on 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:39.400 the Twitter. I mean, can you imagine the segregation now 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.920 segregation forever tweet it would have happened, um, you know, 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:48.040 and and and periscoping or or or live coverage of 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:53.120 of the Little Rock nine. Um, yeah, it would have 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.400 been a completely different time. But your question brings up 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.160 a central issue of the study of history. I think 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:06.160 it's that, um, that these are people, and as as thinking, feeling, 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:12.080 consuming living things, they haven't really changed much in the 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.360 fifty years. Certainly the dressing and the circumstances and the 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:19.120 filigree about us. But that's just history is just a 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:21.720 bunch of people making a bunch of decisions in order. 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:29.280 Do you feel that into in today's climate, there is 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.480 enough focus on what happened in the past. And I 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.839 don't like to. I think that this comparison is made 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:38.839 way too much. And I'm not making this this this 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.360 is a comparison, but when we look at you know, 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.000 when we look at a president or somebody who was 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:47.839 trying to have people dismiss the media, you know, and 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:49.800 then you look um, you know, and I and I 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.040 hate to, I hate the comparison, but I'm a big, 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.760 big study or of of early you know, German history, 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.079 early before you know, the thirties, before World War Two, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.079 and you do see a lot of these kind the 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:04.240 parallels as far as what a despot does. Yeah, I 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:09.120 I would say that one of the most disappointing aspects 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:16.400 of our modern age for me is the the way 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:21.319 that we have turned people doing jobs into these monolithic 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:28.760 ideas of conspiracy and um and opponents. You know, it's 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.000 no longer that you're a person who voted for Obama. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:37.040 You're a you're a libtard, right, or it's not you 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:41.120 didn't vote for for Bush. I mean or or or Trump. 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.839 You're you're someone here horrible if you voted for Trump. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:50.400 that polarization. Um. Yes, I think the rise of conspiracy theory. 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:52.560 I think the rise of our the rancor in our 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:56.160 our discourse. It can can all be boiled down to, well, 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.839 a lack of empathy for the other person. And his 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:05.760 historical study is one way of breaking through that to 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:10.760 to realize that, you know, I put on my pants 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:14.040 one leg at a time, just if I'm a Republican 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.720 or a Democrat, that they might be different colors. Um. 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.400 But you know, um, I haven't really watched it, but 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.199 I've seen previews of Sarah Silverman's show, and you know, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.880 here's a Hollywood liberal comedian and she's doing a really 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:32.040 good job of just showing up in places where she 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.400 should not be showing up and having conversations. Um. And 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.760 I think we should all do more of that. Uh. 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.640 If if there's a if there's a more climate, a 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.199 portion of our political climate, it's just that that we're 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.280 not listening to each other. I grew up in West 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.280 Virginia and I go back to visit and you know, 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.559 and and you know, living in California, you know immediately 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.000 you know, their rancor goes up as far as like, 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:58.839 oh you turned into this and this and this and 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.000 mine best two. When I go home, I think, well, well, 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:04.000 what are your people doing here? What are you doing 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.080 to my country? And that fades away after about ten minutes, 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.440 you know, because when we start talking and it's like now, 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.839 I'm still Maddie from from Romney. I'm just the same kid. 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:14.880 Might have different political views than I used to, but 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.360 you know, things are things are are the same, and 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.959 I think that that dialogue is super important. There's a 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.319 show that I really enjoy on on Comedy Central called 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:25.400 Drunk History. I don't know if you're familiar with it. 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.280 I do love this show because I love history and 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:30.800 listening to drunk people tell it is really good. But 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:32.640 one of the things that I always take away from 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.079 it is, you know, here's another way of making this 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.800 history accessible to folks in a different way. And and 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.240 it brought up when you were talking about conspiracies. One 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.280 of the episodes was about Roswell and that if you 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.719 study history, you know that it was a satellite. You 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:49.599 know it was whether you know that was you know 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.360 the government admitted, Hey, yeah, we didn't want telling anybody, 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.320 and we thought it would be easier. Uh. And I'm thinking, gosh, 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.880 you're not. People who don't realize that, you know, who 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.640 don't even know that that was you know, they never 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.360 get past the conspiracy theory. It and it's so much 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:05.599 more fun to believe a conspiracy theory than to to 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.000 actually like do the homework and find out what really happened. Well, 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.040 it's also psychologically more fulfilling. You know, there's there's all 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.319 sorts of studies of of hy conspiracy theories and and 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:22.640 this sort of crooked thinking exists. And I think it's 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:27.800 just a shame because one, it's misinformation you're living. I mean, 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.920 people are dedicating their lives to chasing down just an 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:36.480 absolute fantasy when there's real, simple explanations that that you 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:38.360 can just say, oh, okay and then and then go 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:42.520 on with your life. Um. But to it it blocks 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:49.200 you from from participating in any sort of further investigation 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.920 of the world of facts. You lose the vocabulary of 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:57.120 thinking that you know, um, there are basic facts of 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.599 the universe that you need to discover and accept and 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.439 their extrapolations. But you're not certain about those and and 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.839 that's okay. You know, this this idea of of of 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.640 certainty both in history and politics and and rhetoric, I 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:14.679 think it's dangerous and um, anyways, I'm I'm I'm a 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:18.000 big fan of stopping and thinking about the basic principles 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.040 of things like would this really happen? You know, what, 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.400 is it possible that forty government employees could be in 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:29.040 on a secret? Um? No, it's it's unlikely. I was 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.600 on vacation recently and I was sitting at a sushi bar. 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.480 The group of people next to me were talking about 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.840 how they all agreed that there was a conspiracy theory 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:41.240 behind nine eleven. Now I was in New York on 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.199 nine eleven. I lived in New York City. So my 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.280 my back, I mean just I my rankled up, and 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.160 I so badly wanted to just like just just educate 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:52.920 them on how stupid they were and how dumb that was. 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.520 I didn't. My wife was like, just let it go, 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:57.120 let it go, let it go. But but it is, 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.439 but it was just but it was the thing that 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.960 bothered me the most was just the level of like, well, sure, 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.640 of course, you know, and then they started quoting things 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:07.800 they've seen on Twitter, and I'm like, this is real, 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.560 this is a really you're really sitting here having this conversation. 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.160 I was, actually I was in Sydney, Australia on that day. 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.280 We woke up to a phone call, you know, told 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:19.800 us to get up and turn on the TV, and 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.560 pretty much the entire day had happened while we were asleep. 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:27.240 And Um, I was actually flying out from Melbourne to Sydney, 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.560 so it was very, very strange to be milling about 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.800 as a as a an American traveling alone in Australia. 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:40.960 The Australians were amazing, but that it happened immediately. Um, 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.680 of course everyone was talking about that event, but you 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.440 you could not run into people who had already developed 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:53.680 the theory of everything on this that it was, and 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.600 they were talking out loud and so assuredly about their 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:01.960 theories on what happened. Uh me hours after you know, 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:04.480 the towers fell. Um, and I felt the same sort 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:06.880 of rage. I was, you know, an American abroad and 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:12.640 uh and and deeply homesick that day. Um. But yeah, 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:17.320 you just I don't know how to confront that. Yeah, 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:22.920 I don't know. You know, one of my favorite things 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.280 about history is and this is a podcast I've always 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:31.520 wanted to do, is the what Ifs of history because 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.680 as as someone you know who reads, I read a 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.160 lot of books and and and you know, there are 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.480 so many things that could have changed based on a 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.360 couple of things, like you know, and I mean from 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.960 big things like what if Hitler had not gone into 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.080 Russian what if Hitler had pressed on Dunkirk? And what 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.920 if what if the British had not come up with radar? Uh, 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.240 you know, all these like little things that especially like 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.760 technology wise, that that changed like World War Two. I mean, 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.280 I'm think people realize how many things that technology wise 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.560 change the course of that war more than anything else. 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.000 Do you have these what ifs that that you like 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:10.960 to think about? And is that something that that you 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.480 also you know, spend your time with it at all? Well, 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.320 you know, I don't think about the what ifs, um 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.440 mainly because there's just so damn many of them. Uh, 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.000 you know, like we we can we can butterfly theory 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:27.920 ourselves into an fantastic fictional world. Um, but it's it's 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:32.160 the case that one single person uttering one sentence differently 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.000 in one moment, and the entire world as we know 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:39.120 it would have changed. Um, I don't. Yeah, I think 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:43.440 who it's fun to speculate, but um, but I don't 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.720 spend a lot of time doing it because, um, I 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.520 don't know where to start and and there's so much 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:54.600 they're already to to learn from. Um So, but yeah, 0:16:55.680 --> 0:17:00.320 I think speculative fiction is is just entertain hating to 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.680 think about the mechanics of of these small changes at 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.720 snowball into uh, you know, an avalanche of history. What 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.680 is your favorite genre of history to to study and 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:13.720 to read up? I mean, I I kind of change 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.600 around a lot. I've been I've recently got into the 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.320 Hundred Years War and I'm like really into that right now. 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:21.879 But what is your I bounced around two? I've you know, 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.760 I've had a deep fondness for for European history when 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:29.040 I was younger, and uh, and then Russian history and 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.879 in college. Um. I got to tell you though, um, 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.840 and and this is really because of the recency effect. 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:38.840 I've I just finished another podcast project that I hope 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:44.800 to release in the spring. But uh, the the reconstruction 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.560 period in America and the immediate aftermath of Abraham Lincoln's 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:55.680 death is fascinating. It put every American value to the test. 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:00.240 You know, this country was just wrung out, and um, 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:05.119 I'm I'm astounded that we recovered. I'm saddened that that 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.960 many things took as long as they did. But wow, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.800 what a what a fascinating period of history. UM. I 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:16.440 don't really give much care to to study the Civil 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.520 War itself, you know, this battle and that battle and um, 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.560 you know, but but the politics and the humanity that 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:28.159 happened because of it. Uh, it's just just fascinating me. 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.840 You know, as somebody who's forty four, I am just 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.520 now coming to grips with I was given an education 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.840 in the Civil War that Uh, that's stuck with me 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.159 until recently, you know, because I grew up in my 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.159 hometown switched hands fifty six times during the war, and 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.240 we had the first Civil War monument was in my hometown, uh, 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:47.560 and it aunted it. It says the War for States Rights, 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.800 and I remember hearing that, and the War of Northern 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.280 Aggression and all kinds of things growing up, Like I mean, 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.040 slavery was never part of the education that I got 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.040 about the war. It was always about Southern independence. And 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.119 then the same thing with the Civil War monuments. What 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:02.200 made me think of that was a Civil War monument 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.159 issue because you know, I just grew up, you know, 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:07.440 feeling like, of course, we have to idolize these guys, 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.960 you know, they were great generals. And then and then 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.600 when I found out more about like why they were 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:14.520 put up and when they were put up these monuments, 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.280 and then I, you know, I start to question back, like, oh, 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:19.720 you know what, I've got things ingrained from in me, 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.200 from from childhood. And I think it's probably the same way, 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:24.480 you know, to kind of til back towards you know, 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.080 the topic of of the Cold War that you know, 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.040 I think as middle aged adults now coping with growing 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.800 up in that time, you know, we have maybe some 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.280 ideals and beliefs that were so ingrained in us that 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:38.960 that we're just maybe haven't figured out yet. Well. I 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.239 think that's the case for every generation. I mean, why 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.760 why does every generation, as as it ages, bemoan the 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.200 next one? Oh these youngsters? You know, It's because there's 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:50.119 a set of values that you've grown up with and 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.760 you carry with you and they change. Um, you know. 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.840 I I think the debate of Civil War monuments, uh 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:00.840 is a real interesting one because if you unpacket, there's 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.919 there's there's questions of free speech, there's questions of history. 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:08.040 There's questions of heritage that that I don't think shouldn't 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:13.119 be cast aside, uh lightly. There's also questions of of 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:17.800 of what it means to be insulted or or patronized 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.760 as a as an individual or or even a social group. 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:28.719 Um and in in order to come to to a conclusion, 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.520 I think any any person who who says, you know, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.720 I have a feeling about this hasn't done enough thinking, 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.520 because it's a deep and complicated issue, just like the 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:43.200 Civil War itself, uh and it was rooted in times 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:47.680 well before us, and we're just you know, swimming downstream 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.960 of history. What were three a couple of things that 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.119 really struck in you that you didn't know before you 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.200 did this series on the Cold War? Because it's fascinating, 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:58.879 and I think the thing I like the most about 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.560 the podcast is what you kind of said earlier is 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.040 that you put people into the life of someone you know. 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.320 Imagine that you're, uh, you know, a professor, and you 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:10.879 know you've signed this one petition and I was listening, 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:12.919 I was I was driving into work, I was listening 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:16.160 uh to the podcast and and and it is it's 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.560 just like, oh gosh, I never thought of that. You know, 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.200 like you sign one petition, you could be you know, 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:24.959 you've got you got ostracized. I mean it's very interesting. 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:26.840 I mean, what are some typic waits you had in 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:29.639 doing the research for it? Well, you know this the 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:34.119 newest episode is is about um literally the fallout of 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:38.240 nuclear weapons testing. And it was largely instructive to me. 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.159 I don't think I knew much about the science and 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:47.720 the politics, uh and the messaging behind America's nuclear efforts 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:50.200 after you know, during the Cold War, you know, I 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:56.400 knew about nuclear weapons and the the arms limitation treaties, etcetera. 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.080 And you know, certainly all the summits that that our 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:03.800 leaders went to. But UM, I had no idea the 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:11.200 the the health and environmental damage we were inflicting on 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:15.320 ourselves and others, and how potent these weapons are in 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.520 terms of their fallout. You know, I remember being frightened 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:20.680 of radiation, but I never knew what it could do, 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:25.920 um until until you know that this this series, and 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:30.119 and you know, it was so concerning for Americans of 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:33.879 of a certain stripe that that housewives and pediatricians got 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:38.800 together and started asking for volunteers to donate their children's 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.719 baby teeth so that those teeth could be ground up 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:47.280 and searched for radioisotopes. And and they found out it's 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:50.040 like yep, uh, there's a there's a lot of radiation 0:22:50.119 --> 0:22:55.520 in America. UM. And you know, of course, the the 0:22:57.240 --> 0:22:59.840 the government agencies at the time have have their own 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:04.000 arching orders to not only compete with the Soviets and 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:08.840 in a nasty geopolitical war, but um, but to address 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.000