1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And Caroline. I feel like we are 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 1: a little late on this this year because it is 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: hot outside. It's been hot outside for a while for sure. 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: Beach trips have been happening, and kids are out of 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: school in some places, in some places in the world, yes, 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: children are not in school, and we're only just now 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: doing our annual Summer Reading podcast. I think it's fine. 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: I think we have a ton of really fast reading listeners. Yeah, 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: I mean our listeners are reading year round, really, yeah, 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: I would hope so. And also, we have talked so 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: much about sci fi, and we had that episode with 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: the fabulous Sarah Mark of Bitch Magazine and Papaganda earlier 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: in the year, and so we people have already people, 16 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: I mean sminty people specifically, have already been excited about 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: the science fiction and visionary fiction topic. And we got 18 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: so many of our recommendations from you guys, So you're 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: already out there reading all of this wonderful science fiction. Yeah, 20 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: and spoiler alert everyone. The theme of this year's Summer 21 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: Reading episode is science fiction. Oh yeah, okay, but we've 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: been spoiling it since that that talk with Sarah Mark. Yeah, 23 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: and not that we ever really try to keep it 24 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: a secret. No, I'd just like to say, spoiler alert sometimes. Yeah, 25 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: spoiler alert. There's a podcast coming up. Spoiler alert. People 26 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: write books about the future to teach us about the present. 27 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: That's right. Well, before we get into our history and 28 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: analysis of women writing science fiction and also how gender 29 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: is portrayed and played with in scientific realms, I wanted 30 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: to call out some of the themes of those listener 31 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: letters that we got when we started talking about science 32 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: fiction and visionary fiction in April, and one of the 33 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: main names that we heard from Steffone never told you listeners, 34 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: both in their letters and on Facebook was James Tiptree Junior, 35 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: wondering why we didn't mention her in our visionary Fiction podcast. 36 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: But don't worry, we're going to talk about Tiptree Junior today. Um. 37 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: Someone also suggested not only science fiction writing, but also 38 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: sci fi comics such as Oh Human Star and The 39 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: New World Anthology. And then Caroline Uh listener Emma sent 40 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: us a quote from Ray Bradbury Yes that I thought 41 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: was a good frame for our conversation. Are you ready 42 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: hit me up? Okay, here we go, quote brad Bear, 43 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: science fiction is a great way to pretend you're writing 44 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: about the future, when in reality you're attacking the recent, 45 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: past and present. Yeah, because even in our just conversations 46 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: about recent events in the sci fi world, there are 47 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: deeper conversations and issues related to gender, race representation and 48 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: how all of that works in in our world, both 49 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: past and present, as Bradbury outed, Yeah, and I think 50 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: sort of that concept is why a lot of people 51 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: out there say, you know, it's interesting that we can't 52 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: seem to move past things like heterosexual relationships or gender 53 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: binaries and science fiction that we're not thinking bigger because 54 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: if we are talking about the future, the very distant future, 55 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: or even just different planets are different galaxy, these universes, 56 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: are we really just still sticking with like white men 57 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: and white women getting married and having babies. We can't 58 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: really think of any other construction of a relationship. In Caroline, 59 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: the heteronormativity of Martian society must be dismantled. But yeah, 60 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: but I think that that that quote from Bradberry is 61 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: is so perfect and it really does sum up a 62 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: lot of what's so fantastic about science fiction because in 63 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: visionary fiction, because yeah, it not only lets you sort 64 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: of envision a different, possibly better future, maybe a dystopian 65 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: future or a utopian future, who knows, but it does 66 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: also let you reflect a lot on what's going on 67 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: around you. And it helps, I think, especially if you 68 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: get people started really young reading science fiction and fantasy. 69 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: It lets people build up their imaginations enough to question 70 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: what's going on around them. Yeah, and speaking of what's 71 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: going on around us, when that episode with Sarah Merk 72 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: in which we talked about visionary fiction came out, a 73 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: lot of people thought that we had specially timed it 74 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: to happen when not only the Hugo Awards We're going down, 75 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: but more specifically all of the sad and Rabid puppy 76 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: controversy surrounding this year's Hugo Awards. Yeah, a lot of 77 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: people just went sad rabid puppies. No, there was not 78 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: some Humane Society jail break it Awards that Sarah McLaughlin 79 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: Humane Society Dog shelter commercial was not playing on Loop. No, 80 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: it was not. Kristen had to give you a little 81 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: bit of an idea of what was going on. Basically, 82 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: the Hugo Awards are one of the most prestigious awards 83 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: ceremonies in science fiction um and the dick was somewhat 84 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: stacked against women and people of color. You could argue 85 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: the year at this year's awards. Yeah. So it was 86 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: created in nineteen fifty three and it has been happening 87 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: annually since nineteen fifty five, so they're well established. And 88 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: the way it works is that these Hugo Awards are 89 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: voted on by members of the World Science Fiction Convention 90 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: or World Con, and World Con members can nominate up 91 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: to five people slash works from the previous year in 92 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: seventeen different categories. And the way you become a World 93 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: Con member is being the low Low prize of forty dollars, 94 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: and then from there, based on those results, you get 95 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: five finalists each of those seventeen categories which are being announced, 96 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: and then a final ballot sent to the members who 97 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: then rank all the nominees. So, as you can imagine, 98 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: this is not a difficult system to game, right exactly, 99 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: And over the years, more and more women and people 100 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: of color have been nominated. That's great, They've always been there. 101 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: It's just that people are starting to finally pay them 102 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: more attention and give them the nominations that they deserve. 103 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: For instance, way back in nineteen sixty eight, and McCaffrey 104 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: became the first woman to win a Hugo Award for fiction, 105 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: and she won in the category of Best Novella for 106 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: Where Search, which also won her her first Nebula, making 107 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: her also the first woman to win a Nebula Award, 108 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: which is similar to the Hugos. It's another sci fi 109 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: literary award. Correct, and as The New Republic pointed out 110 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: looking at the whole Hugo Award drama from nineteen fiction 111 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: nominations at the Hugo Awards went to women twenty two 112 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: percent of the time, so not quite a quarter. But 113 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, the recent gains by women and people of 114 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: color makes sense, right, It only should make sense that 115 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: as we go along, more women people of color are recognized. 116 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: But a lot of angry World Con members have worked 117 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: hard to reverse the trend. I mean, essentially, there is 118 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: this faction of primarily disgruntled white men who think that 119 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: this more recent recognition of works not only featuring uh 120 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: themes related to diversity and representation and gender, but also 121 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: written by a more diverse authors is all part of 122 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: a liberal campaign to you know, just just force this 123 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: kind of diversity onto the genre and also onto the readership. Yeah. 124 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: Jeet Here, writing for The New Republic, says that the 125 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: trend has upset right wing fans who say they've been 126 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: marginalized by affirmative action gone mad, and so they basically 127 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: organized this nomination campaign to undo any of the games 128 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: in diversity among authors, creating what Here said was an 129 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: unprecedented party line slate, which has led to the stacking 130 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: of this year's Hugo ballot largely with white men once again, 131 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: and so this year in men made up more than 132 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: eighty percent of fiction nominees, and pretty much everything surrounding 133 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: these conservative factions does start to get really ridiculous, starting 134 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: with the fact that they call themselves either the sad 135 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: Puppies or the rabbit puppies, depending on their level of 136 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: conservative extremism, and a lot of them seem to really 137 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:37,479 Speaker 1: yearn for a frankly imaginary, a political and non socially 138 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: conscious sci fi past, which has really never been the 139 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: case with sci fi. And it's worth noting too that 140 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: when we say, oh, these are a bunch of you know, 141 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: often angry white men were not just being flip feminists 142 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: about it. I mean, these are guys who are running 143 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: things called the Patriarchy Press and who explicitly right about 144 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: how both women and people of color are inferior in 145 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: a lot of horrifying and bigoted ways and that they 146 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: should not get to vote for the Hugo Awards. Yeah. 147 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, the leader of the Rabid Puppies 148 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: said that women shouldn't get to vote and has called 149 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: African Americans quote half savages. These are the types of 150 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: people that we're dealing with. And if you want a 151 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: more in depth look at this whole nonsense, um, I'll 152 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: include a link to and on the media podcast about 153 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: this on our podcast posts on Stuff I've Never Told 154 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: You dot com. But unfortunately their efforts paid off. They 155 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: they managed to really game the system, like you said, Kristen, 156 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: and just under three quarters of the nominees were puppy approved. Well. 157 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: I wonder though, if it is all that unfortunate because 158 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: there was so much backlash, and I think sometimes that 159 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: this backlash had as the you know, opposite effect of 160 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: raising conversations that people like sad puppies and rabbit puppies 161 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: would rather us not have, but only highlights how out 162 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: of touch they are. Yeah, exactly, um. And you know 163 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: it does seem silly when you're talking about a bunch 164 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: of emotional puppies. Um. In terms of science fiction. But 165 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: here points out that quote the ruck is makes a 166 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: lot more sense in the context of science fictions historical 167 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: lack of diversity, because while yes, science fiction and fantasy 168 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: have always toyed with alternate realities and presented alternate possibilities 169 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: for for living life, whether it's our planet or some 170 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: other planet, it has, like a lot of other things, 171 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: historically been sort of run by or the gatekeepers have 172 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: been historically white guys. Yeah, I mean a lot of 173 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: white guys who tend to have very strong political leanings 174 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: one way or another. Um. But one person who really 175 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: stands out from the crowd is an influential sci fi editor, 176 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: John W. Campbell, who in the nineteenes sixties ran the 177 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: leading genre magazine, Analog, and he was well respected obviously 178 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: within the sci fi community, and was also a raging 179 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: racist who published editorials in favor of slavery and pre 180 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: industrial societies, who also endorsed George Wallace for president and 181 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: didn't want black authors or black characters featured two prominently 182 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: in his magazine UM Case in Point sci fi Prodigy. 183 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: He's often called the first African American sci fi writer. 184 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: Samuel R. Delaney was turned down by Campbell to have 185 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: his novel Nova serialized in analog because Campbell said, you know, 186 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: I really don't think our readers would enjoy or connect 187 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: with black main character. Oh, you know, and not to 188 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: mention to the fact that Delaney was black. I mean, 189 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: it's I'm sure there was really nothing going in his 190 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: favorite at that point, even though I mean he had 191 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: already started winning awards, he already had a Hugo under 192 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: his belt for his work. Well, and I wish we 193 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: could say that we still don't see that in the 194 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: publishing industry, whether it's in magazines or books. UM. And 195 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: you know Octavia E. Butler, who obviously well we'll talk 196 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: about more in just a second. Um, she saw all 197 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: sorts of weird things happened with her books. You know, 198 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: she's an African American woman, Uh, and most of her 199 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: protagonists are other African American or black women, depending on 200 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: what universe you're in. I guess right, Um, but she 201 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: often saw her covers featuring white people. Yeah, so it's 202 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: that kind of whitewashing, that attempt to whitewash a lot 203 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: of science fiction stuff. Well, and and in a piece 204 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: for the New York Review of Science Fiction, Delaney wrote 205 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: about racism and sci fi and actually talked about how 206 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: he where's the label all of first African American science 207 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: fiction writer with caution because there has been a lot 208 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: of a rature of writers of color coming along before him. 209 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: Writing what I mean? He termed it more proto science fiction, 210 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: but still along a lot of the same themes, but 211 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: due to the way white society has worked, they have 212 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: not received much recognition at all. They're not in the 213 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: canon right exactly. And then you have the whole issue 214 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: of of women needing to hide their identities behind pen names. 215 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: This is nothing new, and this certainly is not limited 216 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: to science fiction. But you have people like James Tiptree Jr. 217 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: Who Kristen mentioned earlier a k a. Alice Sheldon Bradley. 218 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: This woman sounds fascinating beyond just her sci fi writing. 219 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: She was a one time CIA agent who earned a 220 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: PhD in psychology, and she created the pseudonym to distance 221 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: herself from her previous writing that was specifically about women 222 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: and girl hood. She later came out and said that 223 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: she was ashamed of taking the quote unquote easy path 224 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: into this male dominated field by changing her name. I 225 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: would definitely want Trip Tree Junior at all Lady Dinner Party. Yeah. Well, 226 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: there's also C. J. Cherry, and that's Cherry with an 227 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: H at the end um whose real name is Caroline 228 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: Janice Cherry no age, and Cherry added the age just 229 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: made me laugh so that she wouldn't sound like a 230 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: romance novelist. Yeah, I love it. I don't know how 231 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: the H at the end really does anything other than 232 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: make it look like a typo kind of um, but 233 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: but you know, you gotta do what you gotta do. Well, 234 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: you also have author Vernon Lee, whose real name is 235 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: Violet Pege, and Paul ash who was actually Pauline Ashwell, 236 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: fourteen year old Pauline Ashwell. I think it's important to 237 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: note so even though women in sci fi haven't always 238 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: been readily apparent, sometimes due to masculine pseudonyms or going 239 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: just by their initials, they absolutely have been present from 240 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: the beginning. I mean, asking where women in sci fi 241 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: are isn't a new question, but their visibility has ebbed 242 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: and flow, because if you look at the nineteen seventies, 243 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: as we'll go into more depth on, that was a 244 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: big decade for them, but then there was sort of 245 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: a down swing in the nineteen eighties and nineties. And 246 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: now though, despite all this sad puppy nonsense, there seems 247 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: to be another upswing happening for women in sci fi 248 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: and more visibility, especially if you take fantasy into account. Yeah, 249 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: and so, so come with us on this journey back 250 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: to some of the pioneers, because of course we have 251 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: to give you a historical perspective, and it doesn't start 252 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies. It starts in the seventeenth century 253 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: with Lady Margaret Cavendish, who also I would love to 254 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: have at a dinner party, Chris sin. Yeah, this woman 255 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: sounds fantastic, and and not just because she is cited 256 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: as one of the first women to write science fiction 257 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: or one of the first people honestly to write science fiction. Um, 258 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: but I just love her introduction to her book The 259 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: Blazing World. So okay, first let's introduce you to her. 260 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: She was England's first recognized female natural philosopher a k 261 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: A scientist, And she was the first woman to visit 262 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: the Royal Society and she must have made a great 263 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: impression because afterwards they banned women until so so there 264 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: you go, Maggie. Who knows what she did, although she 265 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: was heavily criticized in her time for her sailor's mouth, 266 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: her unusual fashion sense, and her flirtatious behavior. So really 267 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: nothing has changed in society when we look at women. 268 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: Do you know much about her unusual fashion sense? Now? 269 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: I don't, but we'll need to look into that. Yeah, 270 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: I have so many questions because how unusual can a 271 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: ladies fashion that's really good? And if she was trying 272 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: to get away with yeah, getting away with bifurcated garments, who, 273 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. That might be why the Royal Society 274 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: banned women from from attendance. They're like, whoa woman just 275 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: walked in with some bifurcated garments. On guys, we got 276 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: a batton down. The hatch manhood is not safe in here. 277 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: Next thing, you know, they'll be wanting to vote. I know. Well. 278 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,719 Speaker 1: So she was a prolific writer. She published twenty three books, 279 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: including poetry plays, scientific observations, and literary critiques, and in 280 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: sixteen sixty six she wrote the satirical utopian vision work 281 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: The Blazing World. And so you can find this online, 282 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: we'll have a link to it. Um. The introduction is 283 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: so great because it's specifically pointed at noble ladies, she says, 284 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: And if noble ladies you should chance to take pleasure 285 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: in reading these fancies, I should account myself a happy creator. 286 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: If not, I must be content to live a melancholy 287 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: life in my own world. I just love it. I 288 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: love that she automatically calls out her fellow ladies. Yeah, 289 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: she's calling to her ladies. And then she's given herself 290 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: some props. So she she writes, quote, I'm not covetous, 291 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: but as ambitious as ever of my sex was is 292 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: or can be. To to your horn, Maggie. Which is 293 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: the cause that though I cannot be Henry the five 294 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: or Charles the Second, yet I will endeavor to be 295 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: Margaret the first. And though I have neither power, time, 296 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: nor occasion to be a great conqueror like Alexander or Caesar, 297 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: Yet rather than not be a mistress of the world, 298 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,479 Speaker 1: since fortune and the fates would give me none. I 299 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: have made one of my own. All of that to say, 300 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: Margaret's like, listen, I know I'm not like a keen 301 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: or whatever. I'm not a dude, but I'm making a 302 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: throne for myself and most I can create this universe myself, 303 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: and it's mine, and I've said it in motion and 304 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: I love it. In her epilogue, she says, by this 305 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: poetical description, you may perceive that my ambition is not 306 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: only to be empress, but authoress of a whole world. 307 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: And I mean that sums up science fiction writing right. 308 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: Not only to be an authoress of the whole world, 309 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: but you know, or to be as awesome as Margaret Cavendish, 310 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: but to really be able to use your imagination to 311 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: create the world that you would like to see. Even 312 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: though you aren't a man in sixteen sixty six and 313 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: you can't rule the world or be an Alexander the Great, 314 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: you can be a conqueror of your own kind. Yeah, 315 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: And can we just take a moment to call out 316 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: all of the amazing uh feminizing of words she puts 317 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: in there, Because Margaret is a creator ress, she is 318 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: an empress, an authoress and a mistress of the world. 319 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: So I mean there's really no holding Margaret Cavendish back 320 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 1: loved ladies. She loves ladies. Being a lady. Yeah, being 321 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: a ladies, great feathers, natural philosophizing a k a. Being science. 322 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: I know it's wonderful. Um. Well, then if we hop 323 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: forward to the nineteenth century, we come to the woman 324 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:23,959 Speaker 1: whom many call the first science fiction author, Mary Shelley, 325 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: because of course she wrote Frankenstein. Frankenstein. Yeah, she's definitely 326 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: a science fiction pioneer, and and reading about her authorship 327 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: made me want to go back and read the eighteen 328 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: eighteen version of Frankenstein. Um, because I didn't realize that 329 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: the eighteen thirty one version was heavily edited. She heavily 330 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: edited thanks to a lot of outside pressure from people 331 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: who were like, this is too weird, Mary, we need 332 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: to scale this back. We know your mother was Mary 333 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: Wolfston Craft, and she penned a vindicate of the rights 334 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: of women, and she's a big old feminist and whatever, 335 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: even though we don't use that word yet, but we 336 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: need you to scale this monster book back. Well, her 337 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: entire biography. Yeah, talking about Wolston Craft is so fascinating 338 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: considering you know, her her parents, even though Wolston Kraft 339 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: died what only days after Mary Shelley was born, and 340 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: then she went on to marry Percy Shelley, and for 341 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: a long time her legacy, partially by her family, was 342 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: sanitized in a way because, um, she was too progressive. 343 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: She was seen as kind of sexually wanton. Yeah, well, 344 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: she and her husband had an open marriage or they 345 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: didn't get married for I can't remember what it is. 346 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: I think they had an open marriage and they were 347 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: just open to love us. Yeah, I mean, well, Percy 348 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: came along when Mary was still pretty young. Yeah, and 349 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: I think he was still married and separated from his wife, 350 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: got with Mary. His first wife ended up drowning herself 351 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: with heart from heartbreak. Talking about drama rama, I know, Well, 352 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: they didn't have the internet, so you've got to do 353 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: something real Housewives of Wolston grows right. Well, So moving 354 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: way forward into the nineteen sixties. Alright, So so you 355 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,360 Speaker 1: gotta keep in mind, like nineteen fifties and sixties were 356 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: getting into the space race. We're getting into the space age. 357 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: Cosmonauts and astronauts, laser guns, laser guns, um and so 358 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: it only makes sense that all of a sudden we 359 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: see this huge spike in science fiction, which of course 360 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: brings along with it ladies sci fi and fantasy writers 361 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: like Madeline Lingle, who wrote A Wrinkle in Time in 362 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, and she shares some stuff in common 363 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: with uh one of our other favorites, Judy Bloom, because 364 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: A Wrinkle in Time is on the American Library Association's 365 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: list of the one most frequently challenged books of nine 366 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: thanks to all of the fantastic references in there. Two 367 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: Witches in Crystal Balls h the claim that it challenges 368 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: religious beliefs and the that it lists Jesus among other 369 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: great artists, philosophers, scientists, and religious leaders instead of kind 370 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: of breaking him out on his own deal basically. And 371 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: then also in the sixties, you have Angela Carter, who 372 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: was influenced by the market assad whom she said was 373 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: one of the first writers to view women as more 374 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: than baby factories. Yeah. She she didn't mind the whole 375 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: aspect of of bondage or sadism that would put other 376 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: people off. She just said, all right, well, at least 377 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: women are active these stories. Yeah, and she would straight 378 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: a little more horror than straight science fiction. For instance, 379 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: her collection of short stories, The Bloody Chamber, is one 380 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: of her most beloved and in case your interest still 381 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: isn't piqued, Vulture describes her as the feminist horror author 382 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: you need to read immediately, well, not immediately once you 383 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: finished listening to this podcast, Yeah, don't turn it off yet. 384 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: And then that leads us up. Now that we've blossed 385 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: over a ton of time on our timeline here, that 386 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: leads us up now to the nineteen seventies, which Kristen mentioned, 387 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: of course at the top of the podcast was a 388 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: huge era for science fiction and women in science fiction 389 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: in particular. A lot of this information is coming from 390 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: a November article in the Atlantic, and they cited author 391 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: Anne A. Leckey, who herself is quite famous these days. 392 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: She says, the seventies was a decade that was crammed 393 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: with prominent women's science fiction writers, and a lot of 394 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: women made their debut in that decade or really came 395 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: to prominence. Well, so there's one writer who was definitely 396 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: leading the pack who we did mention in our Visionary 397 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: Fiction episode with Sarah Mark, and that is Ursula kay 398 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: La Gwin yeah. I mean, technically she's still in the sixties, 399 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: but in nineteen sixty nine leading into the seventies. I 400 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: don't think that I need to explain how decades were 401 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: to our podcast audience. La Gwin publishes the critically acclaimed 402 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: The Left Hand of Darkness, which was her first major 403 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: sci fi book, followed by The Dispossessed and Always Coming 404 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: Home and The Left Hand of Darkness, so really put 405 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: her on the map. It won her both a Hugo 406 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: and a Nebula Award, and she describes it as a 407 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: thought experiment featuring sexless aliens who can reproduce with anybody 408 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: and the only take on sexual characteristics once a month 409 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: in order to breed, so they don't have any biological 410 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: sex or gender and hence no sexual prejudice. So it's 411 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: considered highly feminist text. That's right, but a lot of 412 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: people today look back and criticize it as still being 413 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: too safe because they say the main character is a 414 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: heterosexual male. He's he never has sex with any of 415 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: the other characters in the book, um human or sexless 416 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: alien or otherwise, And yes, well this is sort of 417 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: a sexless, genderless species. Everyone in the book is referred 418 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: to as he. But Lagwin did later say that she 419 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: regretted not picking she or some made up pronoun for everybody, 420 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 1: but you know, at least to give Legun in nine 421 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 1: some some do critics, I mean, but critics of the time, though, 422 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: weren't so concerned about her gendered pronoun, but the fact 423 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: that they thought realistic fiction was the only type that 424 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: could be literary. And that's something that Lagun has stood 425 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: out for in terms of bridging the divide between sci 426 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: fi and more literary fiction. And I think that's an 427 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: obstacle that a lot of science fiction and fantasy and 428 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: other other writers of that ILK run up against is 429 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: not being taken seriously in the literary community. Apparently, you know, 430 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: they say, oh, well, the only thing you can write 431 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: to be taken seriously is like a book about family 432 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: or you know, some type of drama like that. But 433 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: a book about aliens or or taking place on another 434 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: planet that that can at least teach us a little 435 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: bit about ourselves while we're reading it. I mean, I 436 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: think that's a worthwhile pursuit too, And I think just 437 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: interesting side note, both Langwin and Angela Carter were inspired 438 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,719 Speaker 1: by Virginia Wolf, who herself was obviously a massively important 439 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: literary figure. Another great thing about Langwin, though, is she 440 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: is not shy about writing about characters of color. She says, 441 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: if you look at my books, you'll find that most 442 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: of my central characters aren't white. You don't see it 443 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: on the cover because they refuse to put people of 444 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: color on book jackets. But I've always done that deliberately 445 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: because most people in the world aren't white. Why in 446 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: the future would we assume they are in The nineteen 447 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: seventies were also a really important decade for Octavia E. Butler, 448 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: who would later become the first science fiction writer to 449 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: win a MacArthur Genius Grant, and in nineteen seventy one, 450 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: her first story Crossover was published in The Clarion and Bology, 451 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: and that was then followed up by her first novel, 452 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: pattern Master, published in nineteen seventies six, and for a 453 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: little bit of a throwback, she briefly studied under Samuel 454 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: Delaney that African American science fiction author Slash Prodigy we 455 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: talked about earlier and um pattern Mastering, though, kicked off 456 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: the first of her five volume Patternist series and then 457 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: closing out the decade in nineteen seventy one. Her publication 458 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: of Kindred, according to her website, allowed her to support 459 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: herself fully on her writing full time, which what a 460 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: dream to achieve. Absolutely, and I mean the seventies was 461 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: a great time for women. As Lucky pointed out, if 462 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: you look at the women nominated for Hugos in the 463 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, they include La Gwin, Vonda McIntyre and McCaffrey, 464 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: Kate Wilhelm, Joan Vinge, and Marion Zimmer Bradley. And then 465 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: there are a couple of lady sci fi writers who 466 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: are definitely working in that second wave feminist theme of 467 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: the time into their work. You've got James Tittree Jr. 468 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: Who we mentioned earlier, is Alice Bradley Shelton, who pens 469 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: the feminist short story The Women Men Don't See. And 470 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: you have Joanna Russ publishing the feminist sci fi book 471 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,479 Speaker 1: The Female Man, which was nominated for a Negula Award, 472 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: and it really explored the social construction of gender roles. 473 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: But today it's considered problematic for a lot of trans women. 474 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: As Cheryl Morgan pointed out over at Auto Straddle back 475 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: in April. She writes that trans women in Russ's book, 476 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: are manufactured to provide compliant wives for the men because 477 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: all of the quote unquote real women in the world 478 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: have long since gone off and found it a lesbian 479 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: separatist state. So I can see that it would be problematic, 480 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: but I just think that plot line is the bubble 481 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: lesbian separatist state is hilarious. Well. It reminds me of 482 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: our podcast on women in farming and how some you know, 483 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: radical lesbian feminists would kind of go off and have 484 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: their own start their own collective farms, sandsmen to live 485 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: completely away from male society. Um. And even today though 486 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: when you look at any listical of the best women's 487 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,719 Speaker 1: sci fi writers, the best sci fi books written by women, 488 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: all those all this kind of women's centric sci fi rankings, 489 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: all of these names continually come up. I mean, the 490 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: seventies clearly gonna kinda lay the foundation for the female 491 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: authored sci fi can and it seems like and um, 492 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties were not as prolific of a time, 493 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: or at least not as celebrated of a time for 494 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: women in science fiction. But we have Octavia E. Butler 495 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: giving us some bright spots as well when she wins 496 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: a Hugo Award for her short story Speech Sounds, and 497 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: the novelette Blood Child, which also won Nebula and Locust 498 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: Awards and was recognized by the San Francisco Chronicle as 499 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: the best novelette. And that's what Caroline and I have 500 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: been reading over the couple weeks, and it's so good. 501 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: It's so good. Her writing is so and I don't 502 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,959 Speaker 1: say this as a negative. Her writing is so spare, 503 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: it's very easy to read. It really puts the focus 504 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: on her fascinating plot lines. Um, because we picked up 505 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: it's Blood Child and other Stories, which is obviously a 506 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: group of short stories by Octavia Butler, Octavia E. Butler, 507 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: don't drop Eddie. Um. But it's so interesting reading her 508 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: work because all of her stories kind of start out 509 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, this just seems like a normal 510 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: story in a normal world with regular people, and then 511 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: of course she throws in some fascinating twist and you realize, then, 512 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: what's sort of a great example of this visionary fiction 513 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: Octavia Butler's work is because she does she just throws 514 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: what seems like a regular world with regular people who 515 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: have regular fears and hopes and desires at you, but 516 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: then they have to struggle with something like a crazy 517 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: disease that's been brought about by sort of some drug therapy, 518 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: or about aliens needing to uh kind of stick their 519 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: eggs in you and you have to birth them as 520 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: a male person. In Blood Child, Yeah, And one of 521 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: the things I love about the short story collection we've 522 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: been we've both been reading is that it includes each 523 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: story includes an afterward from Butler, And in discussing Blood Child, Um, 524 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: she was saying that a lot of times she's surprised 525 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: by how people think that the story is about slavery 526 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: or colonization, but her motivation was really wanting to write 527 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: about and explore the concept of a world where men 528 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: could get pregnant and what would that look like. And 529 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: to your point about these being stories that are just 530 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: about people until some kind of strange element is tossed 531 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: in there, I think gets to a lot of misconceptions 532 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: about science fiction that is just laser guns and weird 533 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,399 Speaker 1: goo on strange planets, But it seems like the best 534 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: science fiction out there. It makes us question our own 535 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 1: lives because a lot of times it does take place 536 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: in perhaps quite ordinary settings, but then all of a 537 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 1: sudden you have knock, knock, knock, the strange creature knocking 538 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: at your door to give you drug eggs, knock you up? Yes, 539 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: then have you know bug sex with you? And of 540 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: course will that is disgusting. Um. A lot of people 541 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: out there would call people like Octavia E. Butler or 542 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: Slick Legwins soft science fiction. A lot of people out 543 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: there would argue that hard science fiction. Um, he's the 544 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: stuff not only with laser guns, but that really delves 545 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: into scientific theory and and ideas about you know, robots 546 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: and machines. Um, but I think that that is not 547 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: necessarily as accessible to the average reader. And I don't 548 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: just mean us ladies here, Chatt and Kristen. I just mean, like, 549 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: you know, the average reader might not be as turned 550 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: on by those heavily scientific or mechanical concept Well, Caroline 551 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: speak for yourself, because plasma ray blueprints, who get me 552 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 1: going in the evening? Um, but the whole real science 553 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: fiction slash hard sci fi versus quote unquote soft sci fi. 554 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: I guess sounds very comfortable. I know, it's just it's 555 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: very plush. Is so reminiscent though of conversations we've had 556 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: about gender and gaming and music and music criticism, where 557 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: there's this particular type of thing that is considered the 558 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:55,720 Speaker 1: real craft and art that is usually um held away 559 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: from from women. It's usually something propped up to say, 560 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: to keep other people at bay, essentially. And that's not 561 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: to say that whoever, men or women or whoever won't 562 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: understand or appreciate quote unquote hard science fiction. But I 563 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: don't think that the existence of that type of sci 564 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: fi should negate or or lessen the importance and enjoyment 565 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: that people can get out of other stories. Well, in 566 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: this idea of insider versus outsider status of hard sci 567 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: fi versus sci fi and fantasy could tie into Octavia E. 568 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: Butler's personal experiences that have fueled her sci fi explorations 569 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 1: in her writing. Yeah, her background definitely informs her writing. 570 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: In told the Los Angeles Times, I'm black, I'm solitary. 571 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: I've always been an outsider because growing up, she was dyslexic, 572 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: she was tall for her age, she was super shy, 573 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 1: but she was also a big reader, and she really 574 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: took a lot of refuge like like a lot of 575 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 1: people do in books and stories. And in two thousands 576 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: she told the New York Times when I began writing 577 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: science fiction, when I began reading, Heck, I wasn't in 578 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: any of the stuff I read. The only black people 579 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: you found were occasional characters, or characters who were so 580 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: feeble witted that they couldn't manage anything. Anyway, I wrote 581 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: myself in since I'm me and I'm here and I'm writing. 582 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: And does that not echo back to what Margaret Cavendish 583 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: said in her epilogue and her introduction to her book. Yes, 584 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: I mean Octavia E. Butler was the empress of her 585 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,439 Speaker 1: own world. That's right, well, straying even farther away from 586 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: hard sci fi if we get into the late ninety 587 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: nineties and now more and more publishers are expanding this 588 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: genre into fantasy realms, and they're marketing, actively marketing more 589 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 1: of these kinds of science fiction and fantasy stories thanks 590 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: to the popular charity of series like Harry Potter, The 591 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: Hunger Games and Divergent, which have proven to these publishers 592 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: and imprints that hey, women's sci fi and fantasy authors 593 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: can ring in the cash, right, yeah, because those are 594 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: all great lady authors, and they've all gone on to 595 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: be incredibly popular and huge money making film series. And 596 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,439 Speaker 1: Julie cris who's the editorial director at Tour UK, which 597 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: is a sci fi, fantasy and horror imprint of Pan McMillan, 598 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: it's pretty optimistic, she told The Guardian. There's been a 599 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: real sea change in the last five or six years. 600 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: Not only are more women buying into and reading fantasy, 601 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: but we're also seeing more female fantasy authors get recognition. 602 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: And I mean shows like Game of Thrones have definitely helped. 603 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: Of course, yes, Game of Thrones was obviously a book 604 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: series by George R. Martin before it was a show. 605 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: But not everybody's read the books. I haven't read the books, 606 00:38:54,560 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: but Caroline, so many leave. I just like the show 607 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: so much. Um. But yeah, shows like that and and 608 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: how popular it is, it's definitely sucked in a lot 609 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: of audience members who maybe you would have avoided fantasy. Yeah, 610 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: and then there's a whole social media aspect that has 611 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: helped introduce female authors and to new audiences, and on 612 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: top of that to given a platform for visibility and response. 613 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: When things like the Hugo Awards, nonsense goes down like 614 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: that doesn't fly anymore. Sure, and it's the same thing 615 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: that we we touched on in our episodes about comic 616 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: books and women in comics and cartoons, that now it's 617 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: so easy or relatively easy for women to get their 618 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: um comic books or their digital comics out to other 619 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: people online. So we're gonna move away from focusing on 620 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: the sci fi creators and looking at gender within science 621 00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: fiction plot lines. Well, it shouldn't be too hard to imagine, 622 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: especially with everything that Kristen and I have already talked 623 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: about so far, that science fiction is really the perfect tool, 624 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 1: the perfect literary tool with which to play with gender identity, 625 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: because gender can be just a role that a character 626 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: takes on as it's convenient or beneficial. Um. And these 627 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: worlds without sex or gender allow characters in the arc 628 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: of the storyline to transcend the boundaries that we humans 629 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: are so used to dealing with. Yeah, I mean, these 630 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: these are all kind of set up as scientific experiments, 631 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: are in the way that we talk about the studies 632 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,720 Speaker 1: that we cite throughout the podcast, where you can control 633 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: for different variables and see what the outcome is with 634 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 1: your mind. And one of the masters of tinkering with 635 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: those variables is, of course Octavia E. Butler who plays 636 00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: around with the idea of gender in her Zeno Genesis relogy, 637 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: which is about an alien species that basically saves humans 638 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: from themselves and has three genders male, female, and ulloy 639 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: and reproduction involves all three. Yeah, you basically have this, uh, 640 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,759 Speaker 1: this Uloy character who kind of goes between the men 641 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: and the women and you know, takes out the bits 642 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,439 Speaker 1: that are needed to to make a baby and then 643 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 1: sticks it back into the lady. Um being real scientific 644 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 1: since this is a science fiction episode, I want to 645 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: be very scientific. Um. But the motivation being that it's 646 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: it equalizes men and women more when nobody is responsible 647 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: for the giving and the taking and the carrying of 648 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: well the woman still carrying the child. But it's kind 649 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: of putting things on a more level playing field. And 650 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:55,879 Speaker 1: Uloi reminds me of ou mommy. Is it like the mommy? Yeah? 651 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: I mean about umami. I mean, what do we have 652 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: to salty and sweet? Well, then a little better and 653 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: now I'm talking about our our senses. It is lunchtime, 654 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: It's true. Well then over at the Guardian in April, 655 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,439 Speaker 1: Damian Walter helpfully listed out some sci fi authors who 656 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,879 Speaker 1: have really explored gender and sexuality and Walter sites Ian 657 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: in Banks and the Culture series in which members of 658 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: this society that Banks has created who are called the Culture, 659 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 1: are able to change sex and gender roles at will Yeah, 660 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: and Kim Stanley Robinson in his book twenty twelve, envisions 661 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: a future with fluid non binary gender and so avid 662 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: listeners of of Sminty should recognize the concept of fluid 663 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: gender and that this is not some crazy science fiction 664 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: concept to either have fluid gender or fluid sexuality. And 665 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: in addition to Walter at The Guardian, Jeff summers Over 666 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,959 Speaker 1: at the Barnes and Noble blog in November fourteen also 667 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,280 Speaker 1: listed a bunch of people who toyed with the idea 668 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: of gender and sexuality in sci fi, and of course 669 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: he mentions Lagwin and her Left Hand of Darkness, but 670 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: also talks about Jeff L. Chalker's entire catalog, saying that 671 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: Chalker consistently looks at gender is something that's not a 672 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 1: fixed binary code of nature and that the focus is 673 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: more on the character's actions, not on gender roles. And 674 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: he also lists Melissa Scott and her book shadow Man, 675 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: which features a universe with five genders and the people 676 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: in this universe end up with five genders because okay, 677 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: by now we have faster than light space travel. Oh 678 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,320 Speaker 1: but wait, to do that, you have to take this drug, 679 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: and this drug causes there to be more than two genders. 680 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: There's five now, um. And she also looks in light 681 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: of this fact that now there's five genders, she looks 682 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: at the one world that's cut off from the rest, 683 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: where binary genders are still strictly enforced. So being able 684 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: to look at what happens when basically you have Earth 685 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: and humans you know which are I don't know that 686 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: in her book it is Earth, but basically Earth um, 687 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: where we so strictly adhere to the binary gender system, 688 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: and then look at it through the eyes of people 689 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: who are like, oh, we're way past that. Parallel universes 690 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: like The Sliding Door starring Gwyneth Paltrow of science fiction. 691 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: I watched that movie so much growing up. Really, I 692 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: loved it. We ever tempted to get her post break 693 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: up haircut. No, but my best friend did. Yeah, Yeah 694 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: she did. She rocked it. She's got that jawline, though 695 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: I don't have that same jawline. You gotta have that jawline. 696 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: Back to sci fi and Summer's rounds out the list 697 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: two with Anne Lecky, whom we've mentioned earlier, whose debut 698 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 1: novel Ancillary Justice, gobbled up all sorts of awards, including 699 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: the Hugo and the Nebula. And in Ancillary Justice, the 700 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: main character comes from a genderless society but refers to 701 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: everyone they meet I she, and gender or lack of 702 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,360 Speaker 1: it isn't the focus, though, non gendered beings are normalized, 703 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: which is a really interesting way of of looking at 704 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: it as well, when it's not the focal point, when 705 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: you just sort of normalize it, then see how that 706 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 1: makes everything else unfold. And Alex Dally McFarland over at 707 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: tour dot com is somebody who's written extensively about gender 708 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: um and binary gender in sci fi, and she's gotten 709 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 1: a lot of flak for it by a lot of people, 710 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 1: probably some of the sad puppies who are basically like, 711 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: get your gender paws off of my science fiction um. 712 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: But she writes about how she has issues with both 713 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 1: Lecky and Lagwyn's use of a gender pronoun pronoun for 714 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 1: non gendered people because, like we said, uh La Gwyn 715 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,399 Speaker 1: used he for everyone in Left Hand of Darkness and 716 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: Lecky used she for everybody, and McFarland says that non 717 00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: gendered people are not a science fictional concept. They are 718 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:06,399 Speaker 1: real people. Non binary pronouns exist that would better represent them. 719 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,959 Speaker 1: And of course a lot of people spoke up and said, yes, 720 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: absolutely agree with you. Some people said, well, you know, 721 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,840 Speaker 1: those concepts or those words are very human, They're very um. 722 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 1: Maybe they're only known to certain communities in certain cultures 723 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,359 Speaker 1: here in America or whatever, basically saying well, just come 724 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: up with something new, or maybe don't quibble with it 725 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,439 Speaker 1: because it's science fiction and they can do whatever they want. 726 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: I also wonder if there can be a utility and say, 727 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: with Lucky using she, with using these established pronouns, that 728 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: might help us better grasp the concept even more because 729 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 1: it feels more relatable and direct. And maybe I'm like 730 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: also looking at things like way to Binary. But I mean, 731 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: if if the point is to really make the reader 732 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: explore life stands gender or non binary gender, then at 733 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: least for me as a reader and how my imagination works, 734 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 1: having at least like one signpost stuck in the world 735 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,640 Speaker 1: that I walk through every day almost makes it feel 736 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,480 Speaker 1: it makes the imaginary more real. If that makes sense. 737 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,400 Speaker 1: And I guess there's also the possibility that if Lecky 738 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 1: or la Gwin had and I'm not saying that they 739 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 1: shouldn't have or whatever, but there's also the possibility that 740 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,919 Speaker 1: if they came up with their own pronouns, that you, 741 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 1: the reader would still imprint your own desire to have 742 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: someone be male. Like if someone's the protagonist, and this 743 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,399 Speaker 1: this being, if it's an alien, for instance, isn't meant 744 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: to be male or female, but it has a pronoun 745 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: that's completely new and alien that you might just assume, Oh, well, 746 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,800 Speaker 1: it's the it's the lead character. There's a lot of 747 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,959 Speaker 1: action and laser gains, and so I'm just gonna put 748 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 1: he on it. Oh that's well. And that too though, 749 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: I that's a point for using a non gendered pronoun, 750 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,720 Speaker 1: because then it might make you stop and think, wait, 751 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: why am I inherently like masculinizing or feminizing this character? 752 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: What does that say about me? Yeah? And so I 753 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 1: guess Lucky's use of she it does seem like it's 754 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,440 Speaker 1: kind of a direct answer to Laguin's use of he um, 755 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,200 Speaker 1: But maybe it is that conscious like, Okay, stop, we're 756 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,239 Speaker 1: gonna not use he We're gonna use she for everything 757 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 1: and it and it sort of does force you to 758 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: think like, oh, well do I always think? He probably 759 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: um well? And Damian Walter is similarly impatient as Alex 760 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 1: Jalley McFarland is for the queering of science fiction. In 761 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: The Guardian, Walter writes the science fiction needs to reflect 762 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,719 Speaker 1: that the future is queer, saying that beyond even the 763 00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:59,480 Speaker 1: pronoun issue, too many storylines focus on straight narratives. Plus 764 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: you have a lot of conservative sci fi fans attacking 765 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: people like McFarlane for calling for more diversity and better 766 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:13,799 Speaker 1: representation of actual non gender conforming people. But why would 767 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: this even matter? Why should we even care about science 768 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 1: fiction and this kind of representation? And Malta rights that 769 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,440 Speaker 1: this tug of war exists because science fiction is quote 770 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: torn between its higher mission to explore the future and 771 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: it's lower function as mass entertainment. Yeah, and and he 772 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 1: he highlights that reasoning and immediately knocks it down by 773 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,879 Speaker 1: saying the science fiction novels of Ian and Banks were 774 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 1: bestsellers many times over in part because the future they 775 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,839 Speaker 1: explored was openly queer. He also cites Nicola Griffith's book 776 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: Hilled which features a bisexual protagonist, which was nominated for 777 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: a Nebula Award by the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers 778 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,440 Speaker 1: of America. So it's possible. Hello, It's possible to have 779 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 1: people of different sexual orientation, different sexualities, um, leading a 780 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,319 Speaker 1: story and still have it be incredibly successful. Because I mean, 781 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,320 Speaker 1: if if anywhere is going to do it and really 782 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,120 Speaker 1: be successful with it, it's gonna be science fiction. I mean, 783 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,399 Speaker 1: we're imagining worlds with aliens, can we not imagine by 784 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,360 Speaker 1: sexual people? Yeah, And so for that reason, it's not 785 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 1: terribly surprising that a lot of people would say that 786 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: we still have a long way to go in terms 787 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:31,440 Speaker 1: of representing gender nonconforming characters and trans characters in science 788 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:36,839 Speaker 1: fiction and not always hewing to such traditional heteronormative masculine 789 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: and feminine roles. And we do still also have a 790 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,360 Speaker 1: long way to go in terms of acknowledging women's place 791 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,360 Speaker 1: in sci fi authorship, both now and in the past. Obviously, 792 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,719 Speaker 1: we have a lot of authors names that seem to 793 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,640 Speaker 1: get excavated every couple of years when there's sort of 794 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 1: a lady writer trend going on in the media. Um, 795 00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,359 Speaker 1: But you know, some people would argue, you know, why 796 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,400 Speaker 1: do we need to fight for or care about the 797 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:08,600 Speaker 1: inclusion of characters of different sexualities or backgrounds or sexual 798 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,719 Speaker 1: identities or anything like that. And I don't know that 799 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,440 Speaker 1: we necessarily do need to fight for them, but I 800 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:19,440 Speaker 1: do think it helps to be aware that in terms 801 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: of stories getting to publishers and editors and then actually 802 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:28,480 Speaker 1: being published, we're probably not seeing the full scope of 803 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,640 Speaker 1: of things getting represented. That there are probably so many 804 00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 1: store great stories out there by great writers who were 805 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,080 Speaker 1: just not saying because maybe publishers are straying away from uh, 806 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,680 Speaker 1: well you wrote about a gay alien or or a 807 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,840 Speaker 1: trans woman leading you know, the revolution of the universe 808 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: or things like that, And so I do I do 809 00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,719 Speaker 1: think it is helpful to sort of go forward with 810 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,080 Speaker 1: the knowledge that there's other stuff out there and other 811 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,239 Speaker 1: stories that we're being cheated out of because maybe some 812 00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 1: publishers are just kind of afraid of it. Well, and 813 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,279 Speaker 1: when it comes to gender and science fiction as well, 814 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,480 Speaker 1: I would be not so concerned in terms of the 815 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,400 Speaker 1: publishing end of it, although yes, absolutely a concern. But 816 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 1: I wonder too if you know, if it's even more 817 00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:20,399 Speaker 1: helpful for science fiction to be kind of moved away 818 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,879 Speaker 1: from this idea that it's just like a dude thing 819 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,880 Speaker 1: for the sake of girl readers who might think, oh, well, 820 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,360 Speaker 1: if I really like the science fiction stuff, but I 821 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 1: should hide it because this is what you know, nerdy 822 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,680 Speaker 1: boys like and not what nerdy or cool girls like, 823 00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, that's one thing that we haven't 824 00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:43,040 Speaker 1: talked about either in terms of the gendering of sci 825 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,640 Speaker 1: fi fandom, although I think that that's definitely changing with 826 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,719 Speaker 1: the rise of cons and social media and just sort 827 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:54,600 Speaker 1: of the mainstream in general of fandom. Um. But I 828 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,920 Speaker 1: think that the recognition of women's sci fi authors and 829 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:03,120 Speaker 1: the works that they're creating has a positive trickle effect 830 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,200 Speaker 1: hopefully to readership as well. Yeah, and I mean people 831 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,120 Speaker 1: are definitely working on it. Last year, the science fiction 832 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,319 Speaker 1: and fantasy magazine light Speed published a special issue called 833 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:17,279 Speaker 1: Women Destroy science Fiction, which was immediately followed up by 834 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:22,760 Speaker 1: Women Destroy Fantasy and Women Destroy Horror. And these issues 835 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 1: were edited and written entirely by women, and they were 836 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,600 Speaker 1: funded by a whole bunch of people over on Kickstarter. 837 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: And they're not meant to actually destroy science fiction? Are 838 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,920 Speaker 1: these other genres, as plenty of sad puppies have claimed, 839 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,560 Speaker 1: But They're meant to confront the notion that women don't 840 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,920 Speaker 1: write real sci fi, that they write some sort of softer, 841 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 1: terrible version of it. And you know, it's to confront 842 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:51,040 Speaker 1: those stereotypes, but also to expand the whole sci fi 843 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 1: universe in general, to show that there are other voices 844 00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:56,759 Speaker 1: out there and that they're just as quote unquote real 845 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,480 Speaker 1: as any other sci fi authors. And oh, for the 846 00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,439 Speaker 1: future a day in my visionary fiction when women won't 847 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,239 Speaker 1: need to prove they can do anything quote unquote real 848 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,239 Speaker 1: in comparison to men, because we just accept people as 849 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:14,480 Speaker 1: people and having their own unique strength. That gets so old, 850 00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: It gets so old the idea, oh, this is written 851 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 1: entirely by women, this is composed entirely by women. We're 852 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 1: showing things entirely by women, which I see the point, 853 00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 1: but it gets it does get exhausting because it's like, well, awesome, 854 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,200 Speaker 1: Oh what a notion something can be done entirely by women. 855 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,520 Speaker 1: Let's move on and go read a book on the beach. 856 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:41,239 Speaker 1: I guess five book? Yeah, like Blood Child, like Left 857 00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:45,640 Speaker 1: Hand of Darkness. So, Caroline, what is your next sci 858 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,600 Speaker 1: fi read going to be? Um? Well, I literally have 859 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,920 Speaker 1: Left Hand of Darkness in my bag literally literally have 860 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,920 Speaker 1: it out there right now in my bag outside the studio, 861 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,439 Speaker 1: and I just have not read it yet. Well, I'm 862 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,839 Speaker 1: going to try to get my hands on some Angela Carter, 863 00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,319 Speaker 1: I think, because I mean a feminist tour author that 864 00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:06,200 Speaker 1: I have to read right now. I mean, I do 865 00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,400 Speaker 1: what I'm told when it comes to headlines, when it 866 00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,680 Speaker 1: comes to click baity headlines on the internet. Right So 867 00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,680 Speaker 1: that sounds like a fun one for a summer vacation, 868 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,520 Speaker 1: if if it ever happens for me this year. So 869 00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,200 Speaker 1: let's live vicariously through our readers. We want to know 870 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,360 Speaker 1: what you're reading this summer. If it is science fiction, fantastic. 871 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,440 Speaker 1: If it's not, you just want to share fantastic as well. 872 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,759 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is where 873 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,799 Speaker 1: you can send all of your sci fi recommendations. You 874 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,600 Speaker 1: can also tweet them to us at mom Stuff podcast 875 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,040 Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of 876 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:51,239 Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now. I have a 877 00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:56,200 Speaker 1: letter here from Helen about our bisexual erasial episode. She says, 878 00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: I'm an eighteen year old pan sexual female and I 879 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,040 Speaker 1: do find that bisexual and fluid orientations in general do 880 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,520 Speaker 1: get ignored a lot by straight and gay orientations. One 881 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,200 Speaker 1: of the reasons I identify as pan instead of BUY 882 00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:09,759 Speaker 1: is that when I was trying to figure out my 883 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,000 Speaker 1: identify er, I felt very uncomfortable with the term bisexual. 884 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,440 Speaker 1: This is a lot to do with the negative attitudes 885 00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:21,040 Speaker 1: towards bisexuals that stigmatized and ostracized bisexuality. Pan Sexuality meant 886 00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,520 Speaker 1: an escape from the negativity and the sick feeling I 887 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: had associated with bisexuality. A few years on, and I'm 888 00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,359 Speaker 1: trying to reclaim bisexual as a term for myself because 889 00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,640 Speaker 1: I know that the discomfort I felt is a social construct, 890 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,360 Speaker 1: and I want to be more involved in the LGBT 891 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,759 Speaker 1: i q A discussion and culture. The fact that P 892 00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,239 Speaker 1: isn't a letter included in that acronym is telling my 893 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,719 Speaker 1: sexuality is way more to me than just who I'm 894 00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,279 Speaker 1: attracted to. It's who I'm friends with, the things I 895 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:50,319 Speaker 1: talk about, the way I dressed, and the media I 896 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 1: consume and obsess about on Tumblr. It would be great 897 00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,839 Speaker 1: if society treated sexuality as such. Well. We have a 898 00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:02,960 Speaker 1: very topical letter here from Menty's superstar fan Hannah she 899 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:07,719 Speaker 1: Right heloci Squared. Just a quick message about one television 900 00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:11,960 Speaker 1: character who is described as omnisexual and hates the boxes 901 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:16,160 Speaker 1: we seem to crush people into. Captain Jack Parkness, as 902 00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,600 Speaker 1: portrayed by John Barrowman. Jack is a recurring character on 903 00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,439 Speaker 1: Doctor Who and the lead on the Doctor Who spin 904 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,880 Speaker 1: off Torchwood. Jack was born and raised in the fifty 905 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,800 Speaker 1: one century and is stranded in the twenty one. He's 906 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,320 Speaker 1: used to a culture in which romantic and sexual options 907 00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,800 Speaker 1: go far beyond different sexes or genders and include aliens, 908 00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,000 Speaker 1: both humanoid and non humanoid, so he finds our current 909 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,800 Speaker 1: culture stifling. He often scoffs at his employees attempts to 910 00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,960 Speaker 1: categorize him and others with a muttered few people in 911 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:50,200 Speaker 1: your quaint little categories. Jack is not bisexual, but he's heroic, strong, caring, 912 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,080 Speaker 1: and funny alongside his tendency to see beauty and sexual 913 00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:57,320 Speaker 1: allure in everyone terrestrial or extra. He may be easily 914 00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,240 Speaker 1: turned on in an unrepentant flirt, but he is a 915 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:05,680 Speaker 1: genuinely good man and extremely competent. I love the show, Hannah, 916 00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,800 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff 917 00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:11,880 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot Com is our email address 918 00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:13,920 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 919 00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,080 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, including 920 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:21,160 Speaker 1: this one with links to a Lady Margaret Cavendish's book 921 00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,880 Speaker 1: and all sorts of other fun stuff. Head on over 922 00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:31,240 Speaker 1: to stuff Mom Never told You dot com for moralness 923 00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,000 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Isn't how Stuff Works dot 924 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:42,120 Speaker 1: com