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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds.

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Speaker 2: And Tammy Murphy is dropped out of the New Jersey

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Speaker 2: setate race. We have such a great show for you today.

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Speaker 2: Democracy duckets Mark Elias stops by to talk the latest

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Speaker 2: fuckery with our voting laws. Then we'll talk to New

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Speaker 2: York Times White House correspondent Katie Rogers about her new book,

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Speaker 2: American Woman, the transformation of the modern First Lady from

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Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton to Joe Biden. But first we have Media

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Speaker 2: Matter CEO Angela Kirosne.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics. Angelo, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm really delighted to have you because I feel like

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Speaker 1: the mainstream media world has caught up with just how

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Speaker 1: important media matters is. It's sort of interesting, right, because, like,

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Speaker 1: your organization is not new, right, No.

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Speaker 3: No, we're twenty years old this year. We started right

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Speaker 3: around the time of the swift boats attacks against John

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Speaker 3: Carrey in two thousand and four, and that was like

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Speaker 3: the first time that Democrats and the leftmore broadly felt

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Speaker 3: like they needed to have a more structured and systematic

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Speaker 3: response to conservative misinformation. It's talk radio and Fox News

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Speaker 3: in the nineties and early two thousands, wasn't enough of

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Speaker 3: a tell they needed something like really specific like that

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Speaker 3: to kind of help focus it.

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Speaker 1: Weirdly enough, Yeah, I mean, I think that's right, and

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Speaker 1: I also think it's just really so interesting. So you

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Speaker 1: see what the right is running with. And I'm hoping

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Speaker 1: that you could talk a little bit about the Hunter Biden,

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden, James Comer, Jim Jordan, whatever that was yesterday,

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Speaker 1: because it seems like it was meant to create content

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Speaker 1: for Fox News, and yet Fox News did not cover.

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Speaker 3: The part that's so interesting about what's happening right now.

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Speaker 3: And it's worth you know, sort of taking a step

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Speaker 3: back and just getting a little bit of context here,

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Speaker 3: is that we are in this moment where, for the

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Speaker 3: first time in thirty years, like the right wing media

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Speaker 3: is not the way it's always been. You know, one

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Speaker 3: of the things that you know, the right wing media

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Speaker 3: has always functioned as is an echo chamber, and you

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Speaker 3: sort of had, you know, two centers of gravity at

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Speaker 3: Limbaugh and Vock Radio and then Fox News, and they

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Speaker 3: would kind of provide agenda setting that would then get

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Speaker 3: echoed into the larger, larger landscape. Then you'd have these

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Speaker 3: political figures, as you noted, sort of take actions official actions,

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Speaker 3: or say comments that would get them to help advance

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Speaker 3: the story and then get them booked back on those

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Speaker 3: programs or talked about on Limbaugh. And that was sort

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Speaker 3: of the way the cycle worked, and you sort of

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Speaker 3: just keep moving the story along and investing in it.

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Speaker 3: And it was handing bluff as long as you know

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Speaker 3: you and your official capacity or political capacity sort of

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Speaker 3: picked up the right wing media narrative, typically Foxes, you

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Speaker 3: would be rewarded with Fox's coverage and attention. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's honestly how Ron DeSantis went from the bottom of

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Speaker 3: the pack during their theatorial primary in Florida the top

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Speaker 3: of the primary when he was running for governor is

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Speaker 3: that he picked up Fox's dog food and ran with it,

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Speaker 3: and they kept giving him more bookings and that's how

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Speaker 3: he ascend it. All. That's to say that cycle's basically

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Speaker 3: broken down over the last year. Part of it is

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Speaker 3: that there's no center of gravity. They're a course that

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Speaker 3: a conductor. You know, Fox obviously on the heels of

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Speaker 3: the dominion lawsuit and losing Tucker, they're sort of in

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Speaker 3: this weird, wobbly place where they don't have a lot

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Speaker 3: of clarities what they are. Trump is sort of essentially

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Speaker 3: the assignment editor over there now and is kind of

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Speaker 3: setting the tone for some of the programs. And it's

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Speaker 3: kind of broken up into factions. So you have had

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Speaker 3: a a you have sort of you know, a couple

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Speaker 3: of the Day Side people, the Fox and Friends of Universe.

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Speaker 3: It's just weird. And so one of the things to

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Speaker 3: keep in mind is that things like yesterday is that

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Speaker 3: you have people like Jim Jim Jordan who are still

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Speaker 3: trying to play by old ruled where, you know, and

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Speaker 3: it worked for them. I mean they you know, Fox

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Speaker 3: News did hype up a lot of this impeachment stuff

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Speaker 3: and they literally manufactured a lot of these impetriment narratives

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Speaker 3: and some of the more specific claims, like you know,

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Speaker 3: that informant Smirnoff who is claiming that, you know, there

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Speaker 3: was a five million dollar to the Bidens that completely

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Speaker 3: fell apart, turned out to use an informant that had

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Speaker 3: ties to Russia. Hadley alone had hyped that particular claim

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Speaker 3: eighty five times in his monologues, I mean, and that

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Speaker 3: was just Handy's show. You know, the rest of the

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Speaker 3: network is on board. So if you're a cultmbar and Jordan,

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Speaker 3: you you're like, oh, this is it. We're still going

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Speaker 3: with this. You sort of created the demand of the

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Speaker 3: appetite for an impeachment. You built the wise of the

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Speaker 3: narrative that we then used as justification for why we

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Speaker 3: needed to move forward here. And we were responding to

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Speaker 3: our right wing audiences. So we did this thing, and

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Speaker 3: then Fox basically just kind of left him holding the bat.

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Speaker 3: And one is that's the consistency is out there anymore.

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Speaker 3: They're not functioning the same. And the second important point,

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Speaker 3: and this ties into how Fox has been handling a

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Speaker 3: lot of these things lately, is that they just stop.

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Speaker 3: So this is not the only instance where Fox has

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Speaker 3: really pushed something and then when it kind of got

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Speaker 3: you know, a little bit of a hot potato, they

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Speaker 3: completely and totally walked away from it. That has been

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Speaker 3: broadly their m up for the last ten year or

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Speaker 3: so is that whenever they push the story and it

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Speaker 3: gets a little bit attraction, they're like, ah, you know what,

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Speaker 3: We're done with this. So, you know, they helped push

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Speaker 3: this idea of cutting of raising the retirement, it's just

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Speaker 3: so security, and then Republicans go and do it. They're like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, and we're just not going to talk about

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Speaker 3: it anymore. Or the Mike Pence thing right where they

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Speaker 3: were hyping Trump's opponents and then Mike Pence goes on

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Speaker 3: the network and says, oh, yeah, I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: know just as weak it says, I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: endorse Trump, and everybody else talks about it except for

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Speaker 3: Fox Naps, even though they're the ones that broke the story.

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Speaker 3: So there is this sort of weird thing where they

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Speaker 3: just walk away from stuff. They're kind of like starting

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Speaker 3: fires and walking away. And I think it is largely

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Speaker 3: a reflection of that the landscape has shifted so much

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Speaker 3: and they're just not as powerful and influential as they were,

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Speaker 3: or rather, they're not as reliable of a partner as

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Speaker 3: they had been, and that that's not going to go away.

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Speaker 3: That's going to be the new norm and the default,

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Speaker 3: and you're going to see a lot more Republicans kind

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Speaker 3: of scrambling and getting embarrassed, like Jim Jordan was.

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Speaker 1: Are they scared of like legal pushback? Is this Fox News'

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Speaker 1: response to Dominion or is this something. Are the Murdochs

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Speaker 1: playing three dimensional chess?

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Speaker 3: They're definitely not playing three dim They don't know what

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Speaker 3: game they're playing right now. And it's not so much

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Speaker 3: about risk aversion for lawsuits that has affected some of

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Speaker 3: the coverage a little bit, where they're a little more

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Speaker 3: careful about claims they push. It's mostly that they don't

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Speaker 3: know who they are. You know. When President Obama came

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Speaker 3: into office in two thousand and nine, Fox declared themselves

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Speaker 3: the voice of the opposition, and when Trump got into

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Speaker 3: office in twenty seventeen, they very clearly became an organ

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Speaker 3: of the administration, sort of an adjacent sort of you know,

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Speaker 3: para communication structure, that's what they were, and you know,

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Speaker 3: had a shadow chief of staff. They just don't know

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Speaker 3: what they are anymore. They don't have the same influence

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Speaker 3: over the rest of the right wing media now, so

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Speaker 3: when they talk about something, not everybody will try to

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Speaker 3: push it. They hadn't been able to tamp down a lot.

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Speaker 3: I mean, just look at the way the speaker fights

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Speaker 3: have played out. That would not have happened five or

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Speaker 3: six years ago because their Fox and the rest of

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Speaker 3: the right wing media were in lockstep. They had some

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Speaker 3: worder still. I mean, Fox has tried to make Jim

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Speaker 3: Jordan the speaker this year, and that horrendeously blew up

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Speaker 3: and was again really embarrassing for him. So I think

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Speaker 3: it's that what they're trying not to do is lose

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Speaker 3: any more of their audience, which they've lost about twenty percent,

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Speaker 3: but they're also trying not to So they're trying not

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Speaker 3: to lose their audience, but they're also trying to not

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Speaker 3: have to be the sole entity responsible for carrying all

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Speaker 3: of the weight of like the Maga world, because that's

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Speaker 3: also not sustainable for them from a financial perspective. Either.

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Speaker 3: They have to renegotiate these cable deals. They still need

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Speaker 3: to have some political influence. The Murdocks are still kind

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Speaker 3: of mad, so there's like, you know, then there's internal

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Speaker 3: tensions too, whereas he's trying to jockey for who's going

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Speaker 3: to be the real influential player.

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Speaker 1: Get back to Petence for a second, because I think

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Speaker 1: it's meaningful. Pence said he wasn't going to endorse Trump.

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Speaker 1: This is like pretty big deal, even despite the fact,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, look, Trump had his supporters chanting hang

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Speaker 1: Mike pens so again, it's not abnormal to not want

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Speaker 1: to endorse that person, but for Trump world, it is

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Speaker 1: actually abnormal. So is that not getting covered because it's

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Speaker 1: such a paradigm shift and it could unravel the whole

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Speaker 1: apparatus if you were to sort of look down the

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole of people who served in the Trump admin

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Speaker 1: who now refuse to aendorse him, like they broke huge news,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of the job of a news network.

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Speaker 1: And not to put too fine a point on it here,

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Speaker 1: but are they hiding it because they just think it's

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Speaker 1: too detrimental to Trump or is there some other reason

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Speaker 1: they're not covering probably the biggest scoop they've had in

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Speaker 1: the last six months.

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Speaker 3: I think it's two things. One is that they don't

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Speaker 3: want to make Truck mad because he will then attack

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Speaker 3: the network more, and that means that you'll they'll hemmrhage

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Speaker 3: more of their audience. That is one part of it

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Speaker 3: is that they just they don't want to inflame him

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Speaker 3: as much as they because by extension, that's that is

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Speaker 3: the equivalent of inflaming their audience, and they are pretty

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Speaker 3: desperate to make sure that they at least keep whatever

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Speaker 3: sort of soft datent exists between them right now because

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Speaker 3: of the fact that they do need that audio. It's

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Speaker 3: like that is important from a revenue perspective for them,

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Speaker 3: and that is just and also a relevancy perspective. I

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Speaker 3: think the second thing though, is that ultimately, at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, and this is I think the

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Speaker 3: same thing with like the pop Pens endorsement stuff, is

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Speaker 3: like they're all going to vote for Trump. What we're

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Speaker 3: really talking about here is not as you ask, it's

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Speaker 3: not a full paradigm shift. It's a paradigm shift in

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Speaker 3: terms of like how they orient themselves publicly, at how

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Speaker 3: much public you know, weight they're willing to carry. But

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Speaker 3: ultimately they're going to vote for Trump then, and they

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Speaker 3: want him to win reelection. That is the world that

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Speaker 3: they want, and so they don't want to shoot themselves

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Speaker 3: in the foot by advancing narratives that fundamentally or could

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Speaker 3: could seriously wound Trump in any way amongst his audience.

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Speaker 3: And that means you can't because again, this is still

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Speaker 3: a bubble. The audience is still a bubble. And if

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Speaker 3: you have Mike Pence, who even if they have issues

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Speaker 3: with it's a different messenger. It's not just somebody who's

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Speaker 3: running against him. It's like it's his former vice president

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Speaker 3: who's making a rational argument. Trump is trying to make

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Speaker 3: inroads and in the Christian spaces right now, Like there's

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Speaker 3: real reasons why you just want to bury that.

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Speaker 1: How could he make more inroads? I mean, doesn't he

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Speaker 1: have all the way evangelicals.

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Speaker 3: He basically does, Yes, totally. I mean he's got them

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Speaker 3: and that is it. I mean they will all come home.

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Speaker 3: And you know, what Fox has been doing though, has

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Speaker 3: been bringing on more pastors in the last few weeks

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Speaker 3: to speak to that, to that exact thing. So when

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Speaker 3: I say, and I was like, guess what I really

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Speaker 3: mean is locking it down. And Fox has been a

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Speaker 3: conduit for that, where they have been bringing on promined

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Speaker 3: evangelical pastors to essentially say, despite all of his flaws,

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Speaker 3: like we still need to vote for Trump and that

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Speaker 3: that's an important thing that Fox is doing is kind

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Speaker 3: of helping make sure that they lock down that evangelical

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Speaker 3: support for Trump now hence in a way can cut

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Speaker 3: against that and that is you know, it's not going

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Speaker 3: to be a game changer, but like they did want

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Speaker 3: to put any more bananas on the fields, you know,

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Speaker 3: you don't have to get let this guy potentially slip

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Speaker 3: by anything. They know it's going to be a tight race,

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Speaker 3: and and they get the fact that it's margins. So

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Speaker 3: that's what I think is really motivating. This is they

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Speaker 3: still want and that's why I think they held their

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Speaker 3: punches when they supposedly turned on Trump. You know, two

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Speaker 3: years ago and the murdocks were seeing all those stories.

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Speaker 3: They never really hit up, you know, when all the

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Speaker 3: indictment stuff came down, and every time there was a

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Speaker 3: negative story, all they did was talk about Hunter Biden

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Speaker 3: and Joe Biden every time those moments came up. They

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Speaker 3: never actually tried to draw any blood from Trump. They

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Speaker 3: never really tried to say this somehow changes his orientation

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Speaker 3: into the space. They just did some passive aggressive like

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Speaker 3: they're no longer allowed to come on the air or

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Speaker 3: call in anymore for a little while. Ultimately, they still

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Speaker 3: advanced what was a Prochrump position, which is to help

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Speaker 3: make sure that he wasn't mortally wounded by these stories.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me about the TikTok legislation. It zipped through

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Speaker 1: the House, it is in the Senate. They got they're

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Speaker 1: having these security briefings. Clearly, whatever they're seeing in these

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Speaker 1: security briefings is a big convincer, right, I mean, what

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Speaker 1: do we think they're seeing in the security briefing and

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Speaker 1: doesn't make it through the Senate.

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Speaker 3: I think it has a very good chance of getting

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Speaker 3: through the Senate. But I also have real concerns about this.

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Speaker 3: I think that assuming and this gets into your question

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Speaker 3: what they're seeing in the security briefings, I think what

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Speaker 3: they're seeing in the security briefings is a combination of

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Speaker 3: the follower that TikTok has the enormous ability to influence,

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Speaker 3: to saturate, and to change position and perspective quickly amongst

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Speaker 3: an audience, in particularly young audience, so that it could

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Speaker 3: be a beachhead for foreign attacks. But that's one extension,

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Speaker 3: and two that it's already been deployed to clue great effect,

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Speaker 3: in this case not entirely by the Chinese, but also

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Speaker 3: by by Russian active measures, and the Chinese obviously let

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Speaker 3: it happen, but that that it's already been deployed. We

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Speaker 3: saw that it played out during the initial days in

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Speaker 3: the Ukraine invasion and sort of helping see the ground

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Speaker 3: there and changing some of opinions in Europe around this

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Speaker 3: like it's been effective, it's consistently been a tool, and

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Speaker 3: I think they're just seeing more about that and a

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Speaker 3: little bit obviously about China's potential plans. Here's where my

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Speaker 3: issue with the legislation comes in, and I think because

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Speaker 3: they don't actually have to worry about the mess. This

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Speaker 3: is what I don't think they're thinking about. So let's

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Speaker 3: say everything that they're seeing without even knowing the specifics,

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Speaker 3: is that this is a this is as some of

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Speaker 3: the I think some of them described it as a

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Speaker 3: gun to our head. Then all they've basically done, because

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Speaker 3: of the way the legislation is structured, is make it

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Speaker 3: so that either two things happen. Either China allows this

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Speaker 3: ticking time bombs to be detonated right before the election,

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Speaker 3: because at minimum we're talking about a six month period,

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Speaker 3: so TikTok is going to be around. So there's our

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Speaker 3: October surprise. It's already been demonstrated to be a useful

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Speaker 3: tool for active measures, and the truth is is that

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Speaker 3: we've relied on TikTok, the public has relied on TikTok

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Speaker 3: to actually take away the active measures that have been

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Speaker 3: deployed on the platform. There have been more active measures

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Speaker 3: removed on the platform than allowed to proliferate, I would

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Speaker 3: point out, and the leverage point there is not the

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Speaker 3: goodness of China's arts, but that they still wanted the

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Speaker 3: platform to exist and didn't want to elicit an enormous

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Speaker 3: amount of or give any more fuel to the fire

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Speaker 3: to sort of burg or undermine TikTok. But there were

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Speaker 3: leverages and pressure points that were keeping TikTok to some

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Speaker 3: extent constrained. And what they've basically done with this legislation,

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Speaker 3: especially if it goes through, is say, oh, nope, you

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Speaker 3: don't have those constraints anymore, because there's nothing in the

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Speaker 3: bill that actually allows for what is essentially an event

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Speaker 3: trigger or kill switch where the app stores have to

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Speaker 3: act sooner. So there's nothing that says, oh, well, in June,

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Speaker 3: if the platform suddenly becomes a cess pool of the

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Speaker 3: verifiable fact foreign active measures and disinformation campaigns, that the

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Speaker 3: app stores have to remove it immediately, which is a

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Speaker 3: simple thing to add that's not in there right. So

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Speaker 3: what they've basically done is say this time bomb go

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Speaker 3: ahead and deignated right before the election. So independent what

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Speaker 3: people think about the ban or not the ban, or

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Speaker 3: trying to force it to spin off the way that

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Speaker 3: it's structured right now, it basically creates all the incentives

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Speaker 3: for trying to allow it to be used as a

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Speaker 3: tool for disinformation and information warfare, and it doesn't give

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Speaker 3: any meaningful stop gap, and it sort of hopes that

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Speaker 3: some entity is going to fly out of the sky

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Speaker 3: and buy this, and the reality is that entity will

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Speaker 3: almost certainly be right wing. And so even on the

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Speaker 3: other side of this, under the best case scenario, we

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Speaker 3: are now dealing with a new right wing media outlet.

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Speaker 3: And we saw how well that's worked out for X.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about what's happening with you guys and

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Speaker 1: acts elon everybody's favorite billionaire, who richest man in the world,

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Speaker 1: second richest man in the world, exact in now, I

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Speaker 1: guess yeah, government subsidies. The irony is rich has become

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that he got government subsidies, largely from

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Speaker 1: Democrats trying to fight climate change, he's become a person

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Speaker 1: who is I think the phrase is red pilled. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about what he's declared war on media matters. Talk

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Speaker 1: to me about what that looks like or whatever.

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Speaker 3: You can say, yes, I mean what I can say

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Speaker 3: is that he has sued us in the North District

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Speaker 3: of Texas, but there's currently a lawsuit moving forward there,

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Speaker 3: so exisuing us for accurate reporting. You know, we reported

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Speaker 3: that there was an increase of ads or there's a

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Speaker 3: bunch of high profile ads had been running alongside Nazi

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Speaker 3: content and Hitler enthusiasm content. So we didn't even try

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Speaker 3: to like debate, you know, the broader contours of white

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Speaker 3: nationals or white supremacy. We just focused in on Hitler

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Speaker 3: enthusiasm and Nazi accounts to show that these ads were

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Speaker 3: running there contrary to what EX had been telling advertisers.

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Speaker 3: They don't really dispute that, so that they're not saying

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Speaker 3: that we define them. We're alive that there's something inaccurate

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Speaker 3: in the boarding. They just don't like the reflection in

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Speaker 3: the mirror, basically because it's not about the laws, it's

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Speaker 3: about bearing us on legal fees. There also did lible tourism,

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Speaker 3: so they're currently suing us in Ireland. X is currently

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Speaker 3: suing us in Ireland and then threatening to sue in

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Speaker 3: Singapore and the UK. But then aside from that, and

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Speaker 3: I think this is the bigger warning sign for the

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Speaker 3: media more broadly, and sort of where we're heading is

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Speaker 3: that in response to Stephen Miller saying that state AG's

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Speaker 3: Republican state AG's should go after media matters criminally for

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Speaker 3: these reports, that they should use their power to investigate,

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Speaker 3: you know, the underlying research and efforts that went into

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Speaker 3: publishing these news reports. Ken Paxson was the first out

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Speaker 3: of the gate to start that. The Missouri Louisiana kind

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Speaker 3: of followed suit, and it was to launch a pretty

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Speaker 3: broad scale investigation under his consumer fraud statute. That obviously

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Speaker 3: is pretty destructive for news reporting because if you're going

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Speaker 3: to go after every article you don't like, that could

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Speaker 3: have a devastating chilling effect on news information. We sued KEM.

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Speaker 3: Paxson in dc AF before a restraining order against it.

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Speaker 3: We're still waiting on the decision there. But you know,

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Speaker 3: he talks about us at least once a week or so,

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Speaker 3: maybe more, calls us evil on a regular basis. I mean,

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Speaker 3: in his mind, we are responsible for so much attack

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Speaker 3: on free speech, and I think you know, if I

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Speaker 3: take it the media matters pie sadicals is obviously it's

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Speaker 3: having the efforts to barrier so that we can't be effective.

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Speaker 3: And part of the way that we got here is

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Speaker 3: that you basically had every right being media figure from

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Speaker 3: Glenn Beck to Temper Carlson to Laura Wogan and you know,

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Speaker 3: Meg and Kelly and then everybody truly messaging him basically saying,

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Speaker 3: here's how media matters hurt me. They're the most destructive

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Speaker 3: and evil organization in the country. Look how much damage

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Speaker 3: they cause through these reports that they need to be stopped.

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Speaker 3: And ultimately, I think it is a reflection of the

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Speaker 3: work that we do. And I also think though that

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Speaker 3: what we've seen with must not just with us, but

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Speaker 3: also as you noted, this sort of red pilling was

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Speaker 3: a process that happened over time as a result of

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Speaker 3: his own social media interactions, like he became red billed,

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Speaker 3: and he is just an example of what's happening across

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Speaker 3: the board on x and on other platforms that I

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Speaker 3: think make this a real, you know, a real threat

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Speaker 3: beyond just like whatever whatever happens with us is that

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Speaker 3: we are still going to have to grab them. The

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Speaker 3: reality that our society right now, in a weird way,

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Speaker 3: is kind of having a reset moment and instead of

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Speaker 3: talk radio, which really transformed our politics, our culture, and

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Speaker 3: our news in the nineties, We're going to be confronting

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Speaker 3: a new reality, which I think is sort of akin

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Speaker 3: to this new platform called Rumble, which is like a

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Speaker 3: YouTube alternative, and I think it's going to similarly transform

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Speaker 3: the country and our politics and our culture, you know,

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Speaker 3: for the worst. And so I think that what we're

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Speaker 3: seeing with Musk is just sort of a keyhold view

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Speaker 3: as to where the rest of the landscape is going.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, Hi, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thanks yea good way.

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Speaker 2: And Mark Oyas is the founder of Democracy Docket.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 3: Mar thanks for having me again.

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Speaker 1: We were on the show together this week and I

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Speaker 1: just read what you wrote about. I'm just so struck

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Speaker 1: by how incredibly important or what's happening right now. It's

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Speaker 1: like the Trump RNC takeover. We covered it from the

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Speaker 1: sort of it's an autocracy angle, but we haven't covered

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Speaker 1: it from probably the most scary and disturbing angle, which

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Speaker 1: is it's a voter suppression play. So talk to me

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, first of all, it was great seeing you earlier

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Speaker 4: this week. I wish we could always be on together.

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Speaker 4: Maybe if someone's listening with power. As you say, there

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Speaker 4: was a lot of coverage of the takeover of the

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Speaker 4: R and C that focused on the fact that Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump might use it as a piggybank for his legal fees.

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Speaker 4: That they got it a lot of people. But I

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Speaker 4: think what was not focused on as much as it

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Speaker 4: should was they actually added effectively for lawyers, right, Michael

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Speaker 4: Watley himself the chair, is a lawyer from North Carolina, and.

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Speaker 3: Then they hired three others.

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Speaker 4: Charlie Spies, who is a professional Republican. Frankly, I would

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Speaker 4: have said he was a never Trumper if you had

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Speaker 4: asked me a a year or so ago. He worked

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Speaker 4: for mid Romney and then DeSantis, and Jeb Bush is

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Speaker 4: super packing in the middle, and Bill McGinley, who is

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Speaker 4: much more maggot he was in the White House. Question

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Speaker 4: I pose is that we know that they are launching

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Speaker 4: now a new attack on voting because we see them

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Speaker 4: filing new lawsuits. The question that we don't know is

433
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 4: will it be more effective than it was in twenty

434
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,440
Speaker 4: twenty when they had the likes of Rudy Giuliani, Jenna

435
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 4: Ellis and Sidney Palinchark.

436
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean This is such a good point, which

437
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 1: is the thing that saved democracy so far, is that

438
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,159
Speaker 1: most of the people who are doing this are very

439
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 1: stupid and also not particularly well trained. You make the

440
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 1: case here that the crew who were working on trying

441
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 1: to overturn the election, we're largely not very good at

442
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,120
Speaker 1: this and not very smart. Your case here is that

443
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 1: these people are actually good at this and smart.

444
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, and I think you know you see this.

445
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 4: I think one of the most underappreciated names in Trump

446
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,640
Speaker 4: world right now is Chris Lasovita, who is also himself

447
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 4: a professional campaign operative who did not originate in the

448
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 4: Trump be part of the Republican Party. He was frankly

449
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 4: largely known for running races in Virginia, and I think

450
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,919
Speaker 4: he saw this opportunity to the RNC as not only

451
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,640
Speaker 4: to placate Donald Trump's wishes, but also to bring in

452
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 4: a legal team that would not embarrass him and the

453
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,479
Speaker 4: RNC the same way. Now, that doesn't mean they'll have

454
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,400
Speaker 4: more success, by the way, I think it's an open

455
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 4: question whether they'll have any more success because they still

456
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 4: are dealt the hand that Donald Trump has given them,

457
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 4: which is to oppose voting rights in Court and to

458
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 4: poste by mail, I think those are ultimately losers of

459
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 4: a position, But I do think we shouldn't gloss over

460
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,360
Speaker 4: the fact that they have added seemingly normal or formerly

461
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,160
Speaker 4: normal Republican lawyers to the mix.

462
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 3: Well.

463
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 1: And I also think the point here is that you

464
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,360
Speaker 1: have one party that no longer believes in democracy, right,

465
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,879
Speaker 1: And so when you have people like Chris La Sevida,

466
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 1: or you have people who are like guilled Republican operatives

467
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 1: going like, this is our shot, let's go. Even if

468
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen this time, it could happen next time.

469
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: And that was always my anxiety with DeSantis. I mean,

470
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 1: he turned out to be a spectacularly terrible candidate, but

471
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 1: he believed everything Trump believed, but was smarter and better organized.

472
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 3: Right, And this is a great threat, Molly.

473
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 4: I mean, this is what I think you and I

474
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 4: and others have been talking about that I think people

475
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 4: need to hear, is that, you know, we right now

476
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,239
Speaker 4: have a system in which essentially only one party can

477
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 4: win or else we lose democracy. And that is just

478
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 4: an untenable position because eventually, even if it's not Donald Trump,

479
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 4: you know, if it's Ron DeSantis, you know, or someone

480
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 4: else in that same mold. The country's going to be

481
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 4: in a world of hurt. So the question I always

482
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 4: pose to some of the never trumpers, who I appreciate

483
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 4: their work in some respects is how do we get

484
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 4: out of this? Like how do we get to a

485
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,479
Speaker 4: place in which we are not careening from one anti

486
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 4: democracy candidate to another? Because you know, Ron DeSantis opposed

487
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 4: voting rights, he was in favor of book banning right

488
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 4: in Florida. He's not exactly not exactly a pillar of

489
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 4: liberal democracy.

490
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: It does strike me, and again I'm being a Pollyanna

491
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: and Charlie Sykes already just said that. I said as

492
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: much as you would, But there is a sense in

493
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 1: which Nikki Haley did not seem in my mind to

494
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: be as anti democratic as the other ones.

495
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, but she also didn't come very close to winning,

496
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 4: Like this is this is the only place where I

497
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 4: would be a little bit mildly critical.

498
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: Right, she didn't come close to winning.

499
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeahs are mildly critical of the left on this around.

500
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 4: Nikki Haley is Nicki Haley was never going to be

501
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 4: the nominee. So it's all well and good to say

502
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 4: she ran and she was the last one left. But

503
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 4: she essentially was just a vessel for protesting Donald Trump.

504
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 4: But she wasn't gonna win.

505
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, she couldn't get the critical mass because her ideas

506
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: were largely more jab than Donald.

507
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 3: Right, right.

508
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 4: And that's look, that's been the tension within the Republican

509
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 4: Party now, going all the way back to their autopsy

510
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 4: report after twenty twelve, when they said we need candidates

511
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 4: to appeal more to young voters, women, Hispanics, and others.

512
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 4: And Jeb Bush was intended to be that candidate, but

513
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 4: he got thrashed by Donald Trump. And the problem, Molly is,

514
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 4: ever since then, it's not clear that there is a

515
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 4: majority of Republican voters who will vote for someone who

516
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 4: is not in that Trump mold. So I don't feel

517
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 4: like we're out of the box that we've all been

518
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 4: put in where democracy is at stake, and it's just

519
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 4: the Republicans are just circling around the various versions of Trumpiness.

520
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: No, now, I think that's right. I also think when

521
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: we are talking about this voter suppression stuff, Republicans have

522
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 1: a long history of voter suppression. I mean, we did

523
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 1: not Robert started stripping the voting rights act, you know,

524
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: pre Donald Trump.

525
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely.

526
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 4: And look, this is one of the places where I

527
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 4: think candidly some of the never Trumper's think I was

528
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 4: too hard on some of them.

529
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: They'll be okay, Yeah, they'll be fine.

530
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 4: Like, the fact is that Republicans have been suppressing the

531
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 4: votes of blackbrand and young voters for a very long time,

532
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 4: and there is very little evidence that they are distancing

533
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 4: themselves from that, even in the never Trump camp. I mean,

534
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 4: let's not forget that Rusty Bauers, who is the guy

535
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 4: from Arizona who everyone fawned over. He oversaw the enactment

536
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 4: of all of the voter suppression legislation in Arizona. Brian

537
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 4: Kemp and Brad Rothenberger oversaw and champion voter expression all

538
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 4: the bad voter expression laws that we have seen in Georgia.

539
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 4: So the anti voting ethos really stems in the Republican

540
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 4: Party from the fact that they have been losing ground

541
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 4: with the popular vote in America and they have internalized

542
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 4: the need to limit who can participate in order to win.

543
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the last gasp of a dying party

544
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: that cannot survive in a multiracial demand. Right because their

545
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: policies are terrible, right, And.

546
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 4: I think the place where I have taken it, probably

547
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 4: a step further than maybe some others, is that I

548
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 4: then point out when the Freedom to Vote Act and

549
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 4: the Genre Lewis Vote as Advancement Act aim before Congress,

550
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 4: every Republican voted against it. And I mean every Republican

551
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 4: that includes as people a some on the right eight.

552
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 4: When I point out that includes Ris Cheney and that

553
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 4: includes Adam Kinsick, like, there is no constituency in the

554
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 4: Republican Party to expand voting whatever else you may think

555
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 4: about them for other issues. When it comes to voter

556
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 4: supression of voting rights, there are no Republicans. There are

557
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 4: more Republicans in the House who have it f rating

558
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 4: from the NA than there are who would support a

559
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 4: voting rights bill.

560
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: So depressing, I mean, and really quite depressing, But I

561
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: do think really an important point. One of the things

562
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: that I read that really scared me last week was

563
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: this idea that they are trying to purge the roles.

564
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: So I'm hoping you could talk a little bit about

565
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: what that means, to purge the roles where it's happening,

566
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: where it's that's not happening, and how many lawsuits you're

567
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: working on right now about that.

568
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's a really good question. Voter purgase is

569
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 4: one of the tried and true tactics that Republicans have

570
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 4: used now for many decades. If you don't like who

571
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 4: they vote against you, one of the things is you

572
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 4: go and you try to remove people from being able

573
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 4: to vote by having their voter registrations canceled. This was

574
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,719
Speaker 4: a big problem for many, many decades. You may remember

575
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 4: the RNC found itself under a court order, a consent

576
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 4: decree that prohibited them from engaging in certain activities. One

577
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 4: of the reasons why they found themselves in that trouble

578
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 4: was because of racially targeted voter purchase. Now, Congress addressed

579
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 4: this in a couple of different bills in the nineties

580
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 4: and in the early two thousands to try to curb

581
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 4: the abilities of states to engage in these mass removal

582
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 4: of voters in ways that were harmful and illegal. Obviously,

583
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 4: states should be able to remove dead people, they should

584
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 4: be able to remove people who moved out of the jurisdiction,

585
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 4: they should be able to do listings. But the kind

586
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 4: of the targeted purges really had to go.

587
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 3: So we saw a quieting of voter purges. But what's

588
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 3: interesting is we've now kind.

589
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 4: Of seen it resurge, and I think there are a

590
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 4: couple of reasons for it, which I'm happy to go into,

591
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 4: but it's worth noting to answer your question. You know,

592
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 4: the first two cases that were filed by the RNC

593
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 4: after Mike Whatley took over, so I'm talking literally in

594
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 4: the last ten days, they filed two voter purge cases,

595
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 4: so it is very much top of their mind.

596
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean the idea of a voter purge

597
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: is you go to vote. You know, you are a

598
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: voter in Georgia who has gotten the day off to vote,

599
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: and you are not on the rolls anymore.

600
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: Correct.

601
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 4: And so what the Republicans are doing with their conservative

602
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 4: allies is a two pronged strategy, and you neique to

603
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 4: understand both of them to understand what we're in for

604
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 4: this fall, because I believe this is going to be

605
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 4: one of the, if not the dominant theme of this

606
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 4: fall election when we get there. The first is that

607
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 4: Republicans want to weaken the apparatus of the state to

608
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 4: have accurate voter rules. That they do this Molly in

609
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 4: both directions, both by trying to get them to purge

610
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 4: voters who shouldn't be removed, right, But at the same time,

611
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 4: remember they also pulled a number of their states out

612
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 4: of ERIC, which is an interestate compact between blue, red

613
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 4: and purple states to share information between them to allow

614
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 4: them to remove people who should be The first step

615
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 4: of this two prong is you both keep people on

616
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 4: who shouldn't be on. You try to purge people off

617
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 4: who shouldn't be off. Right, you basically create chaos, which

618
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 4: won't surprise you since it's a Donald Trump inspired effort. Right,

619
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 4: you create chaos at the state involving who is on

620
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: the voter lists. And the second part of the program though,

621
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 4: and this is the one that we have started to

622
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 4: see more and more in the newspaper. The New York

623
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 4: Times did a good story on this as well as

624
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 4: some other outlets, is these private election right wing election

625
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,959
Speaker 4: agilantes who are basically engaging in private purges by compiling

626
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 4: their own lists of voters who they think should be

627
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 4: removed so and then submitting them to counties and insisting

628
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 4: that the counties remove those voters. So, the first is

629
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 4: the urge lawsuits we've been talking about are where the

630
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 4: RNC and others sue the state and say, hey, state,

631
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 4: you need to conduct a voter purge. But this second

632
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 4: effort is where right wing organizations, using big data and

633
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 4: using artificial intelligence generate their own lists of people who

634
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,479
Speaker 4: they say should be removed, and then they challenge those people.

635
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 4: They engage in what's called mass voter challenges, where they

636
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 4: submit lists of thousands and thousands of people who they've

637
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 4: never met and tell the companies these people are illegal

638
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 4: and they have to be removed. And it is it

639
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 4: is the interplay of those two things that I fear

640
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 4: is going to really negatively impact voters this November.

641
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems really bad. How can Democrats push back

642
00:30:59,280 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: on that?

643
00:30:59,680 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 5: And all?

644
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: Also, I really need you to talk about this carry

645
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: Lake Supreme Court madness, Oh my god.

646
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 4: Okay, So Democrats can to push back out a couple

647
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 4: of ways. The first is every state that is controlled

648
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 4: by Democrats should remove the ability from their state law

649
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 4: for private individuals to challenge voters. There is no reason, Molly,

650
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 4: why you should be able to go to a big

651
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 4: data company and generate a list of ten thousand people

652
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 4: you don't know and then submitted for challenge. Okay, so

653
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 4: number one states controlled by Democrats should do awigh with

654
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 4: private voter challenges. The second is that everyone listening should

655
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 4: check their own voter registration and make sure they're properly registered,

656
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 4: you know, but making sure it's going to be a

657
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 4: part of good hygiene. This fall is for people to

658
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 4: check with their counties and states to make sure that

659
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 4: they have not been removed and that they are otherwise

660
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 4: eligible to vote. Now on Kerry Lake, you know, Molly,

661
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 4: so much of what I do is very stressful, and

662
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 4: you know, and I feel, you know, under a lot

663
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 4: of it's humorless. And then it is often Mike Lindell

664
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 4: and Kerry Lake get together. If you think about it, Molly,

665
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 4: it's kind of a match made inhabitat right, two of them.

666
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 3: Curry Lake had run for governor.

667
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 4: She lost. She brought a series of lawsuits over the

668
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 4: fact that she lost, which she continues to litigate. One

669
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 4: of them is to say that the voting machines in

670
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 4: Arizona were you know, rigged against her. She and her lawyers,

671
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 4: by the way, have already been sanctioned amazing. But yet

672
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 4: she managed to find common ally ship with the pillow salesman,

673
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 4: Mike Lindell the mast. Yeah, and they decided they were

674
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 4: going to take you to the US Supreme Court.

675
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 3: And so that circus has now come to town. If

676
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 3: you live in Washington, DC.

677
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: That is amazing the Supreme Court, I mean, they still

678
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: have a tiny tiny bit of dignity left, right or now.

679
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 3: To go back to the first topic we talked about,

680
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 3: you know about the lawyers.

681
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 4: At one end of the spectrum, you have Rudy Juliana

682
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 4: dripping hair dye office standing in front of a landscaping

683
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 4: company between a porn.

684
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: Shop and yes, right, right, go on.

685
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 4: But like at one in those re interview of that,

686
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 4: at the other end of the spectrum, you know, you

687
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 4: have more respectable lawyers like the one you know, who

688
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 4: just want to otherwise like undermine, you know.

689
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: Abortion rights. But Mike Lindell, Kerry Lake, they're definitely in

690
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 3: that first category. And the Springcourt Supremecourt will do will

691
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 3: do business with the second group. You know, they're happy

692
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 3: to undermine basic individual freedoms and democracy, but they're not

693
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 3: here for the Kerry Lake hair you know, Rue Juliani Kroud.

694
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 3: So this lass is not going anywhere but it does

695
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 3: show that, you know, and I thought that Bill Crystal

696
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 3: actually had an interesting article this morning in which he

697
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 3: kind of says, you know, the RNC not only hired

698
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: the people I was talking about, they also hired the

699
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: for uh, you know, the former anchor from Owaan News, right,

700
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 3: So they know how to play that sort of both

701
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 3: sides of They want to play both sides of this,

702
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 3: and there's no question. Mike Lindell and Kerry lak Aer

703
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: in the circus side.

704
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Mark, really fun to talk to

705
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: you and also oh so worrying.

706
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: Rogers is the New York Times White House correspondent and

707
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 2: author of American Woman, The Transformation of the Modern First

708
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: Lady From Hillary Clinton to Joe Biden.

709
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Katie Rogers.

710
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 5: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

711
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: We're so happy to have you so talk to me

712
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: about this book you write for The New York Times.

713
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: You decided to sort of pause and take a minute

714
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: to write a book. Why did you write this book?

715
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: And explain to us a little bit about the origin.

716
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: Are you still the White House correspondent the New York Times?

717
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 5: I am. I've been doing that for six years which

718
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 5: is everyone tells me is like a year longer than

719
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 5: any sane person to do the Bob. So that tells

720
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 5: you a lot about me.

721
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've really been through some of the Trump years.

722
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I kind of gravitated, I guess, going back

723
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 5: to the Trump era. I got moved down from the

724
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 5: New York newsroom the week of Donald Trump's inauguration. My

725
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 5: assignment was to write features about like Washington, this very

726
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 5: democratic city being like overtaken by the Trump presidency and

727
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 5: the administration and all these conservatives of moving accounts. So

728
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 5: I started with that, but I kind of gravitated toward

729
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 5: malaniat Trump too, because she was such a mysterious figure.

730
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 5: She hadn't moved to Washington yet, so really I started

731
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 5: covering her right off the bat. I got named to

732
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 5: the White House Beed a year later, covered President Trump,

733
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 5: but also kept a pretty close eye on the first Lady.

734
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 5: And I was actually on maternity leave and got approached

735
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 5: to do a biography of Jill Biden and I had

736
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 5: been approached to do Malania books, and I didn't really

737
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 5: want to do anything that was about Jill because I

738
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 5: didn't know her. I hadn't covered her I'd just stopped

739
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 5: covering my Trump administration. I wasn't sure if there would

740
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 5: be enough about her to even fill a book, just

741
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 5: because I think to a lot of Americans, she's kind

742
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 5: of like an opaque figure and she's been around a

743
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 5: long time. People don't really know a lot about her.

744
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 5: And I was just like, I don't know if I

745
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 5: want to do that. But I saw her story as

746
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 5: kind of modern because I I think it's you know

747
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 5: anything about her and Joe Biden, it's that like he

748
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 5: lost his first wife in a terrible tragedy right in

749
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy two, and it's his youngest daughter, and the

750
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 5: woman who came in and fixed all that and needed

751
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 5: that family back together was Jill Bidden And I was

752
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 5: I really thought that was karad of a modern thing, right,

753
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 5: Like she has a non traditional family, Like it was

754
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 5: a really singular story in American politics, and so I

755
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 5: just really was like, who is this woman who would

756
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 5: A do that and b be it her husband's side

757
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 5: for decades as he pursued this presidency. So really like

758
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 5: I kind of thought about her as I guess a

759
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 5: really modern figure, which is kind of not what you

760
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 5: would think of her. I think at First Blood she

761
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 5: kept her job. She's the first first lady to keep

762
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 5: her job, And then I kind of thought it's probably

763
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 5: easier for her to have gone to work because her

764
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 5: predecessor kind of unraveling the role completely, yeah, run of

765
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 5: everyone and showing everybody that it was optional. Well, then

766
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 5: I kind of thought of this as sort of a

767
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 5: scare slop. So every first lady kind of has changed

768
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 5: the role in her own way. So I kind of

769
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 5: decided to do first Ladies back for Return of the Century,

770
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 5: and it was Hillri Clinton, of course, and she really

771
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 5: was the most ambitious, the most educated, the most able

772
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 5: to sort of be a policy partner for her husband,

773
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 5: and she got a lot of scar to shoot from that, right,

774
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 5: she got a lot of pushback from what she tried

775
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 5: to do. So I kind of started with hers as

776
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 5: the first bookend and focused on each first lady since

777
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 5: and kind of culminated with Jill's story, which is a

778
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 5: very long winded answered to your question, But yeah, it

779
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 5: got more competuated as I worked on it. But I

780
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 5: think it really tells the story of this role that

781
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 5: has kind of stayed preserved in Amber as the culture

782
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 5: around it begins to have these, like, you know, pretty

783
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 5: fulsome conversations about what women's roles are in society and

784
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 5: in marriages.

785
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: Such an interesting experiment, and it is. Yeah, I mean,

786
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: you do really see with Hillary that she took a

787
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: lot of abuse for her trying to use the role

788
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: to enact policy, right, and then Michelle Obama takes a

789
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: lot of abuse for being black and everyone being racist.

790
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: There was a lot of pressure, right, but she didn't

791
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: do anything policy wise. She was, you know, did much

792
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: more of the traditional first lady job. I have a

793
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: theory that black women just get the most abuse from

794
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: the mainstream media and there's so much inherent racism and sexism.

795
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 5: I think there is some truth to that, and I

796
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 5: think people had to learn in real time how to

797
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 5: write about a woman who has a completely different set

798
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 5: of experiences that she is bringing to not only the

799
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 5: role but as a candidate's wife, as a politanential candidate's wife.

800
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 5: I write in the book that you can sort of

801
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 5: see she has a really dry sense of humor, right,

802
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 5: and she would make sort of one liners or craps,

803
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 5: you know, wise packs on the campaign, and people just

804
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 5: would take that like in the media, you're right, would

805
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 5: take it completely differently than if it were white woman

806
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 5: candidates spouse saying these things. And I think she learned

807
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 5: on the campaign trail that she had to be really

808
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 5: buttoned up, the perfect wife, be a supportive wife. She

809
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 5: actually considered not moving to Washington right away too, which

810
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 5: is an interesting sort of recal.

811
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: To pull the girls out of school, right.

812
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, And then so like she had to not

813
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 5: only be this sort of perfect, you know, spouse, she

814
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 5: gave up her career, she also had to readjust like

815
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 5: two young girls to Washington. So she was up against

816
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,479
Speaker 5: a lot. She had a lot to prove. And yeah,

817
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 5: I think that the media had to sort of much

818
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 5: like I think a lot of the covered around Kamala Harris,

819
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 5: the vice President, has sort of gone a little bit

820
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 5: harder and harsher at times because she is the first

821
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 5: to ever have this role and have background.

822
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such an interesting and important thing. And I mean,

823
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: you did see that President Obama had to be ten

824
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: times more careful about everything because of that inherent racism.

825
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 5: And Harris's advisors tell us all the time, you know,

826
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 5: former and current advisors of hers say like she asked

827
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 5: to be better all the time, Like black women have

828
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 5: to work twice as hard. So we have somebody in

829
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 5: public life right now, one of the highest offices of

830
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 5: the land, who is dealing with the same kind of

831
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 5: thing in a different role, but you know, in the

832
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 5: same sort of close circle of principles that Michelle Obama

833
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,479
Speaker 5: dealt with, same thing she dealt with.

834
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting. And then you get to Milania. Did

835
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: you feel there were hopes that Milania might be I mean,

836
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: I know there were so many times during the beginning

837
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: of the Trump administration where there was a hope that

838
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: someone would be a moderating force that never really happened.

839
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: But can talk about that.

840
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I remember, I'm sure you do too.

841
00:40:58,760 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 3: Like that.

842
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 5: People, well maybe it's Ivanka. Maybe it'll be it'll be Ivanka,

843
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 5: and maybe you'll be Jared. And then finally was you know,

844
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 5: maybe Milania, maybe Millennia will do something. She slaps his

845
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 5: hand away. She sent a tweet out after the Charlottesville,

846
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 5: you know, that horrible white nationalist rally that ended up

847
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 5: with a woman being killed. She you know, sent a

848
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 5: tweet to you know, calling for an onto violence while

849
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 5: her husband praised people were on both sides of the issue.

850
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 5: So I think there was a lot of hope basically

851
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 5: that first year that she dared views that were different

852
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 5: from her husband and maybe would have an ability to

853
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 5: mediate him, as you say. But the more I covered her,

854
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 5: and I think the more she showed as time went on,

855
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 5: she was much more willing to kind of like channel

856
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 5: what he was mad about. I would learn that she

857
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 5: would oftentimes be the person saying, you know, well, if

858
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 5: they're punching my husband, he's going to punch back, which

859
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 5: is kind of rooted in both how both Trumps feel

860
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 5: about being attacked and being scrutinized. Really, she wasn't a

861
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 5: moderating force. You know that the Charlottesville tweets, you know,

862
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 5: things like that amounted to kind of ephemeraa and we're

863
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 5: done at the suggestion of AIDS. It wasn't a reflection

864
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 5: of her having any sort of moderating influence on him,

865
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 5: at least not in a regular way in the way

866
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 5: that critics of the Trump administration would hope.

867
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to me because it's like, as someone

868
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: who has known maybe not women exactly like Milania, but

869
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, had certainly known trophy wives. And I mean

870
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: that not in a sexist way, but in a majorative way,

871
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: but not in a sexist wife. I thought she had

872
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: a little more or I hoped she had a little

873
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: more agency than it turned out she did.

874
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 5: What's interesting, though, is like I talked to Stephanie Gersham

875
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 5: for this book, and you know, she wrote that sort

876
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 5: of tell all about her time there, but I had

877
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 5: talked to her about a year after that book came out,

878
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 5: and there was still so much more to share. I

879
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 5: think about the East Wing that I kind of picked

880
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 5: up my book. And it's funny that you say agency though,

881
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,439
Speaker 5: because Stephanie pointed out that so many times Milania would

882
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 5: tell her this is our East Wing. We do what

883
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 5: we want. We don't pay attention to what they're doing

884
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 5: over there. So her point was that this is the

885
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 5: first time that she had ever had like a buffer

886
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 5: from him and from his world. Yeah, and she would

887
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 5: just she enjoyed that. And Stephanie Grisham kind of said

888
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 5: to me, she said to me that toward the end

889
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 5: of the first term, she said this realization quin of

890
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 5: sudden with Malania Trump, that she was going to go

891
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 5: have to live with her husband again and she wouldn't

892
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 5: have this buffer, and her behavior kind of change she

893
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 5: got more closed in, she became a little bit more

894
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 5: chucked out. It was a really interesting like this was

895
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 5: one of the closest people to her. Not that Lalania

896
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 5: Trump really lets anybody in, but Stephanie Gersham was certainly

897
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 5: a loyalist and was certainly you know, around for almost

898
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 5: all of it until January sixth, and just watched that

899
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 5: behavior change from you know, when the story Daniel's Story's

900
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 5: published in around twenty eighteen, you know, we recorded she

901
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 5: just took off tumor labia for a weekend and nobody

902
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 5: knew what she was doing. And Stephanie Gresham was like,

903
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 5: that was to embarrass him. She was pissed off and

904
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 5: wanted to humiliate him, is what she told me. But

905
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 5: toward the end of that term she then sort of

906
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 5: reverted back into this sort of quiet, insular figure. It

907
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 5: was that was an interesting trajectory to hear about.

908
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so interesting and also so disappointing in

909
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: my mind. So now we have this current administration. One

910
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: of the things I'm struck by with the first lady

911
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: at ChIL Biden and I don't know her, never have

912
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: met her, but here she is. She comes in with

913
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: the boys, they end up having their own child together,

914
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: so they raised the three kids. Biden was sort of

915
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: grown into the presidency in a certain way in my mind,

916
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: because he had run many times, but he was never

917
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: sort of the right person for the moment. And then

918
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: it became like very clear to a lot of Democrats

919
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: that he was the only person who could beat Trump,

920
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: and when things look darkest, he is the most committed

921
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: to just you know, sort of this singular vision of

922
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: just beating Trump. Right. You know, Obama was the dream candidate, right,

923
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 1: gifted orator, just so smart, and he's incredible writer.

924
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 5: He represented the future for people finally.

925
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like Democrats that were just like,

926
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: we just need a white guy to run against the

927
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 1: other white guy. You know, he's not a gifted orator,

928
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: he's not a genius, but he's functional.

929
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 5: And he's decent.

930
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: But I also think ultimately, and again, there certainly have

931
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: been things that anyone could be not happy with, but

932
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: there's a lot of the legislation has been kind of incredible.

933
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: But I'm hoping that you could talk to us a

934
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 1: little bit about where her places Joe Biden, because she

935
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: is more of a traditional first lady role of the

936
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 1: sort of fifties, but she still teaches. And then also

937
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: she has this incredible stressor of having one son who

938
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: was sober and then having this right wing media monster,

939
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: this machine that is obsessed with those of her children. Right,

940
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: So I'm hoping you talk about that, because that is

941
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: an unusual dynamic.

942
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 5: I think, yeah, I mean, I think everything you just

943
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 5: laid out, I think one of the main things to

944
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 5: understand about her, and I love that the idea of

945
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 5: pixotic because she shares that same nature, whether she had

946
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 5: it when she married him or developed it over time,

947
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 5: she developed this sort of I think I call it

948
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 5: her in a book, like she's not a Biden by blood,

949
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 5: but over time she has come to represent the family's

950
00:46:55,239 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 5: defiant backbone. And I think that both of them are

951
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 5: driven by being talented out and even being attacked at

952
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 5: some rate by the right and it kind of creates

953
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,959
Speaker 5: this mentality where they view even criticism from their own

954
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 5: party as an attack. Though like that, it can create

955
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 5: this sort of trench mentality that isn't necessarily helpful helpful exactly,

956
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 5: they're incredibly defiant. They're likely to dig in against adversity

957
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 5: and see the misinformation from the right that he's got dementia,

958
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 5: that the attacks about Hunter's business dealings and how enmeshed

959
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 5: Joe Biden is with that, and there is mussiness there,

960
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 5: but not to the degree of course that the right

961
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 5: has claimed. So I think all of it creates this

962
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 5: like very closed, insular trench kind of mentality, and she

963
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 5: is at the center of that, right alongside her husband.

964
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 5: The one thing he didn't say about her, which I

965
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 5: think is important and interesting, is and this is kind

966
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 5: of like one of my story obsessions, but I don't

967
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 5: know that I'm going to get around to it or

968
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 5: if my editors like it. But she's the most successful

969
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 5: surrogate he has. Oh interesting, She's also the only one

970
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 5: in the family who is wearing and or able to

971
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 5: do that right. Like if you think about the Bidens,

972
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 5: they think of themselves or thought of themselves as the

973
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 5: political dynasty, you know, back to the seventies when his

974
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 5: first wife was telling reporters that the Kennedys would have

975
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 5: nothing on the Bidens. They believed that their family has

976
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 5: something special to offer American life, right, and Bo was

977
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 5: really the heirs to that. And when Bo died in

978
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 5: twenty fifteen, there was just Hunter and Ashley, as you said,

979
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 5: I have had their own issues. They've both dealt with substance

980
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 5: addiction and problems to that effect. And really, at the

981
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 5: end of the day, Jill Biden is the only one

982
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 5: who is able to go out there and put this

983
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 5: sort of lens on Biden and sort of bring him

984
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 5: out and bring him back amidst all of this criticism

985
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 5: as the man that he believes he is. Tells the

986
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 5: story that the Bidens want America to know about them,

987
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 5: which is that he is resilient. He has been through

988
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 5: so much tragedy in his life, he understands what that's like.

989
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 5: He has passed legislation that is bipartisan, that is you know, expansive,

990
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,399
Speaker 5: and was meant her all Americans, not just some of them.

991
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 5: She's incredibly effective at that. And she's also attacking Donald Trump,

992
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 5: you know, by name, about his track record, particularly on

993
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 5: women's rights and reproductive rights. And people think of her

994
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 5: as a helpmate, maybe in a housewife or somebody who

995
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 5: is you know, just there to support her husband, and

996
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 5: she she truly is that. But she's also a tireless

997
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 5: campaigner and we've never really seen a first lady like

998
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 5: that who is willing to sort of get into these

999
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 5: political fights. And that is because she believes that her

1000
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 5: husband is the only one that can beat Trump. And

1001
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 5: she doesn't like Trump at all. She you know, has

1002
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 5: a deep dislike for him and she's alarmed by his policies.

1003
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean she's not the only one. Katie Rogers,

1004
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us.

1005
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 5: Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.

1006
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1007
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1008
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1009
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1010
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.