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Speaker 1: Hey everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to the coort open.

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Speaker 1: Here is practical guy to make it Puma culture happen

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Speaker 1: wherever you are. I am your host for this episode,

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Speaker 1: Andrew of the YouTube channel andreis Um. I'm joined here

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Speaker 1: with Chris and Jeames lou Hello. Hi, thanks for having us,

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Speaker 1: Thanks having me the guest. Well, you're gonna walk us

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Speaker 1: through this. I'm very excited to learn more about it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so I really see it as a as a key

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Speaker 1: component in our restoration of the earth. And so I

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Speaker 1: find it necessary that regardless of what direction your individual

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Speaker 1: practice is going in, we're we're looking to specialize or whatever,

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Speaker 1: couldn't quote specialized. I think it's still important to think

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Speaker 1: about where food comes from and think about way as

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Speaker 1: that we can enhanced and in large our food autonomy,

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Speaker 1: especially considering the multi layering crises that you know compounding

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Speaker 1: these days. Puma culture was first coined as a tomb

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Speaker 1: by puma culturist Bill Mollison. It's a portmanteau of permanent

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Speaker 1: agriculture and permanent culture, and it's the conscious design and

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Speaker 1: mainstenance of agriculturally productive ecosystems MS which have a diversity,

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Speaker 1: stability and resilience of natural ecosystems. It's a way of

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Speaker 1: integrating landscape and people providing their food, energy, shelter, and

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Speaker 1: other material and other non material needs in a sustainable way.

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Speaker 1: And just to be clear, the concepts, the ideas, the

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Speaker 1: principles that make up puma culture have existed long before

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Speaker 1: Bill Morrison was born, have existed in cultures all over

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Speaker 1: the world. Bill Molson is just someone who has, I

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Speaker 1: guess given it a spin for a modern audience. But

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Speaker 1: these principles, these ideas are things that have been in

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Speaker 1: practice for thousands of years, tens of thousands, even from

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Speaker 1: the approach to land management and settlement designed to the

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Speaker 1: whole systems thinking approach to nature which can be seen

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Speaker 1: in a lot of animals practices. It has a long history,

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Speaker 1: and it's one that people who practice Puma culture today

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Speaker 1: research Puma culture will inevitably uncover in their learning process. However,

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Speaker 1: Bill Morrison first coined in the nineties seventies as a

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Speaker 1: response to the oil embargoes they were taking place at

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Speaker 1: the time. By bringing together the traditional knowledge of vastery

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Speaker 1: of indigenous cultures and combining them with certain modern design

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Speaker 1: and layouts, it created a movement that is now um

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Speaker 1: spreading across the world from every on every continent. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: the way that Puma culture views um the world the

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Speaker 1: views systems. It comes with an outlook that recognizes it

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Speaker 1: all biological material is a potential energy source. The aim

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Speaker 1: is to try to trap energy on your land and

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Speaker 1: to use that energy the most efficient way before a

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Speaker 1: degrede to create circular economies and cycles of energy. That

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Speaker 1: how for actual sustainable agricultural practice, which unfortunately has not

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Speaker 1: been the aim of agriculture, especially industrial agriculture, and Superma

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Speaker 1: culture represents a challenge to that status cool. The ethics

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Speaker 1: of Puma culture are primarily focused on care for the earth,

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Speaker 1: that being all living and on living things, care for

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Speaker 1: all people, there by promoting self reliance and community responsibility,

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Speaker 1: the sort of we all have access to the resources

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Speaker 1: necessary for existence and care for community, and specifically communit

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Speaker 1: t that allows us to be to think of an

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Speaker 1: approach our society in a way that benefits all people

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Speaker 1: in all life, recognizing the community is not just our neighbors,

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Speaker 1: it's not just the people who live in our city

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Speaker 1: or town. It is all the living things that incorporate

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Speaker 1: our surroundings and beyond. The way that puman culture approaches

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Speaker 1: um design, it's a lot of his emphasis and mimicking

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Speaker 1: how the natural world would attempt to stabilize. Of course,

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Speaker 1: these systems take thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands,

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Speaker 1: even millions of years two fully develop and age and

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Speaker 1: reach some kind of stable state. But public culture seeks

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Speaker 1: to learn from you know, these old growth forests and

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Speaker 1: these healthily ecosystems, and accelerate that process to establish things

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Speaker 1: that will last generations, to established spaces that will provide

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Speaker 1: for the needs of people hundreds of years down the line.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to approaching pumic culture design practically, first

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Speaker 1: things first to recognize is that anybody can take part

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Speaker 1: in pumic culture design. Anybody can take part in constructing

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Speaker 1: these sources of systems, and it can be established. The

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Speaker 1: basic principles can be established regardless of your circumstances, your

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Speaker 1: individual climate or biosphere, because the principles are based on

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Speaker 1: following what nature was doing anyway. One of the first

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Speaker 1: principles involves the recognition of the connections in a local

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Speaker 1: Asian seeing that a web is stronger than a single string,

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Speaker 1: meaning that all of these different parts, the different moving parts,

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Speaker 1: coming together create something stronger than if each individual person,

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Speaker 1: each individual creature trying to move by itself. It also

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Speaker 1: looks at the connection between waste and resources. We all

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Speaker 1: on the old adage just says, you know, one man's

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Speaker 1: trash is another mantas of treasure, but when it comes

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Speaker 1: to ecosystems, we should really be taking it quite literally,

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Speaker 1: because the waste of one part of the system directly

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Speaker 1: feeds into the resource of another part. Decomposing plants and

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Speaker 1: animals directly feed into the fungal networks and flourishing of

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Speaker 1: the next generation of plants, animals, as and in at

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Speaker 1: web in that network. In those connections, we can also

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Speaker 1: recognize for principle too, that each element performs multiple functions.

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Speaker 1: If we are for example, keeping chickens. They can be

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Speaker 1: a source of eggs and feathers and protein, of course,

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Speaker 1: but they also produced mania, and their daily activity helps

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Speaker 1: to aerate the soil. And they also provide insect control um,

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Speaker 1: allowing your plans to food and flourish banana trees. They

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Speaker 1: provide bananas, of course, they provide fruit. They also provide

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Speaker 1: starch and mulch and protection and shade, and they hold

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Speaker 1: water quite well. Actually, when I had taken a puma

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Speaker 1: culture design course a couple of months ago, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I had learned from the guy who

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Speaker 1: was running it was that he had told his story

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Speaker 1: and he had done this this project in Barbarous and

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Speaker 1: in Barbado was he was called to restore sort of

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Speaker 1: like an old sand mine um because it run out

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Speaker 1: of sand. Well, it's close running out of sand. And

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Speaker 1: so the community that was reliant in that sand mine

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Speaker 1: didn't really have any direction um because their economy, their

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Speaker 1: local economy, been so reliant on those jobs. When he

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Speaker 1: came in, it's just like and he showed the pictures,

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Speaker 1: it's just very very barren landscape, very dry, very dusty,

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Speaker 1: And I was honestly in disbelief that something so dead,

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Speaker 1: so destroyed, something so devolved, could be as radically transformed

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Speaker 1: as he had transformed it. Unfortunately, this is a podcast,

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Speaker 1: not a video, or otherwise I would show you the pictures.

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Speaker 1: But the transformation was stunning. I want of the elements

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Speaker 1: that he had used to transform that dry lands ape

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Speaker 1: into a lush food forest was banana trees, because surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: banana trees are very effective. Well, unsurprisingly, banana trees are

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Speaker 1: very effective at growing quickly and providing shade to other plants,

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Speaker 1: and so as these other plants are growing up, they

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Speaker 1: have the shaded banana tree to protect them from the

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Speaker 1: harsh sun and to the banana trees. While they may

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Speaker 1: not be the top doors to the forest in the end,

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Speaker 1: by the time the forest is fully established, because banana

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Speaker 1: trees don't get that tall, they still vital in that

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Speaker 1: early stage in providing that function of shade that allows

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Speaker 1: the rest of the forest to establish itself. That's really cool.

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Speaker 1: It's very very very cool. Which all pictures after, it's

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Speaker 1: like a place people could see them online like Instagram,

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Speaker 1: they could look up or something. Yes, so um, if

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Speaker 1: you go on Wassamaki Puma culture dot org. I believe

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Speaker 1: he has the pictures up there that'll be w E

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Speaker 1: S E M A k I Puma culture dot org.

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Speaker 1: And if I remember correctly, he has the pictures on there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: was it like a sand mine before or something? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a sand mine. Yeah, jeez, wow, it looks

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Speaker 1: like there's no goodness in the soil and the first

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Speaker 1: one and then yeah, yeah, to go back into the

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Speaker 1: recording aspect when it came to that project, a large

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Speaker 1: part of it was just getting that life in the soil.

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Speaker 1: So they were taken. They were getting mulch and manua

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Speaker 1: from wherever they could get it, just to give some

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Speaker 1: life for that soil. They would grow sitting like hardy,

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Speaker 1: fast growing plants and then chopped them down after they'd

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Speaker 1: grow in sufficiently so they would die right where they

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Speaker 1: lay and provide nutrients to the soil. And that process

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Speaker 1: was what helps to build up that soil even before

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Speaker 1: you started planting the bananas and other stuff. And were

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Speaker 1: they able like you're saying, they were getting some of

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Speaker 1: that stuff wherever they could get it, like, and were

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Speaker 1: they able to get that that was it like considered

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Speaker 1: a waste product? I guess better people they got it from,

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Speaker 1: and so like I know, I have chickens and they

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Speaker 1: obviously produced like manure, and I'll put some of it

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Speaker 1: in my like vegetables to the grow. But I'll just

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Speaker 1: give it to anyone else who wants it. It is

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Speaker 1: that a thing that they were able to do there? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think people are donated UM. And I mean I

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Speaker 1: would assume at least in turn, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: the cases in Barbados, but in turn that they are

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Speaker 1: bush trucks which pass every once in a while to

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Speaker 1: collect whatever, you know, branches and cut grass and whatever

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Speaker 1: people have puts out um from their yard will go whatever.

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Speaker 1: So I would assume that they would have asked the

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Speaker 1: bush truck people to you know, bring some of that

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Speaker 1: stuff to the site to help out, because a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, you know, they just put that in front

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Speaker 1: of the yard waiting for the bush struck to pass.

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Speaker 1: And so a lot of very good potential sources of

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Speaker 1: like UM ecosystem building, that sort of that so called

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Speaker 1: waste really resources gets wasted when it could really see UM,

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Speaker 1: a lot of these kinds of projects. Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: something that like I don't know if if you ever

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Speaker 1: read UN documents about like stopping climate change. Like they

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Speaker 1: always have a giant section about circular about circular economy stuff,

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Speaker 1: but about sort of I mean, basically doing this stuff

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Speaker 1: and then nothing ever happens and no one ever does it,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, it's it's really cool all that, like

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Speaker 1: this is a place where those ideas which like are

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Speaker 1: if there's if we are going to survive as a

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Speaker 1: species with like most of us alive and doing well,

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Speaker 1: we're going to have to do exactly. I'm I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of reminded just on this sort of topic of I

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Speaker 1: was in Rwanda and February, and one of the things

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Speaker 1: that really struck me with this system of agriculture that

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Speaker 1: they've devised where um, they have patties that they grow

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Speaker 1: rice right like submerged, and then in there there are

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Speaker 1: living fish and then above them they are like little

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Speaker 1: hutches with rabbits and I'm so like the rabbit manure

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Speaker 1: helps to fertilize what's growing beneath, and then like it's

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Speaker 1: this kind of circular thing where I think they can

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Speaker 1: feed some of the things that they cut off the

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Speaker 1: plant to the rabbits and it's sort of like and

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Speaker 1: the fish will help keep the water clean. I think

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Speaker 1: that like filter fish, I can't quite a plan to

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Speaker 1: keep it clean for the fish. It was fascinating. I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is amazing, Like they're not as opposed

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Speaker 1: to I grew up on a farm and I'm very

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Speaker 1: familiar with some of the larger arable sort of grain,

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Speaker 1: but like grains in the UK, and how you're relying

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Speaker 1: on a ton of exogenous inputs, which I was just

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Speaker 1: so impressed with the fact that they devised a system

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Speaker 1: that didn't require those exactly exactly you really want to.

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Speaker 1: Of course you might, we will have to get external sources,

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Speaker 1: especially in the beginning as you're trying to establish the system,

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Speaker 1: but the aim is really to have this system continuously

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Speaker 1: establishing itself and expanding itself and maintaining itself. Yeah, would

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Speaker 1: it be a system that works mostly with like a

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Speaker 1: plant based food stuff, so I guess that seems generally

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Speaker 1: to be more sustainable. Absolutely. I mean, man Ya's a

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Speaker 1: really powerful source of fertilizer. And I think you can

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Speaker 1: keep animals without you know, eating them or using them

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Speaker 1: anyway if you just want to, you know, because they

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Speaker 1: make good companions and stuff as well. Yeah, but yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would say a plant focus system could definitely but

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Speaker 1: and to sort of rhyme or aligned with principle too,

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Speaker 1: which said that each element performs multiple functions. It's also

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Speaker 1: important to have each function supported very multiple elements. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you don't want to get all your food from

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Speaker 1: one source. You want to have a mix of trees

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Speaker 1: and roots and short crops and cultivates. I mean having

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Speaker 1: all your food coming from one sources. Basically what we

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Speaker 1: do now with you know, these mono cultures, with these

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Speaker 1: this industrial farming that has these fields and fields and

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Speaker 1: fields that are so susceptible to pests and disease that

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Speaker 1: we have to basically drench them with chemicals just a

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Speaker 1: lot to survive. Because and the same guy who did

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Speaker 1: the course, he explains it me like this. He said

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Speaker 1: that when there's a system in nature and it's not

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Speaker 1: in balance, they basically send out a signal saying, eight,

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Speaker 1: this is not in balance, come and fix it. And

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Speaker 1: so these so called pests, these bugs and stuff, they

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Speaker 1: come to these aberrations, these freaks of nature, these massive

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Speaker 1: fields of crops, and recognizing that this is not sustainable

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Speaker 1: um establishments in the landscape, they try to try to optimize. Right,

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Speaker 1: he calls them. He doesn't call them pests. He calls

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Speaker 1: them optimizers. So if you have, for example, uh, excessive

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Speaker 1: amount of a certain pest in your system, something's wrong

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Speaker 1: with that system because those so called pests, those optimizers

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Speaker 1: are only able to flood your system because they don't

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Speaker 1: have the mechanism. System doesn't have the mechanisms in place

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Speaker 1: to keep them in check. So you don't have the fauna,

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Speaker 1: the larger insects and stuff in your system that will

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Speaker 1: keep those pests in check. There's an imbalance in place,

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Speaker 1: and that's something that needs to be rectified, and there

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Speaker 1: different ways to rectified depend on this situation. Another example,

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Speaker 1: and this isn't um from the pooma culture poom culture course.

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Speaker 1: Another example was the this I believe someone was talking

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Speaker 1: about the presence of wolves in some of the parks

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Speaker 1: in in the US and how reintroducing those wolves did

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Speaker 1: so much too regulate the rest of the ecosystem, the

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Speaker 1: ripple effects that had an arrest the ecosystem UM stabilizing

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Speaker 1: the day of populations and stabilizing UM the beaver populations,

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Speaker 1: and stabilizing all these other different plants and animal species

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Speaker 1: that you would think are not even connected to the wolves,

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Speaker 1: but still their presence creating a significant rule in maintaining

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Speaker 1: that balance. Yeah. Go go watch how wolves change rivers.

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Speaker 1: It's literally five minutes and it rules. Yeah, it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: It's just like the concept of rewilding. Is that what

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Speaker 1: would that be a similar thing? Yeah? Yeah, rewilding is

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Speaker 1: basically it's puma culture had to be more focused on

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Speaker 1: sustaining human communities in you know, in a balance with

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Speaker 1: the rest of the natural world, whereas rewilding is more

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Speaker 1: focused on helping to rebuild ecosystems outside of the human

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Speaker 1: sphere at He says, I understand it. Yeah, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: makes no sense to me. So with principle three, which

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Speaker 1: was three or rate, was that each function should be

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Speaker 1: supported by multiple elements. You would want to get all

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Speaker 1: your food from one source. You just want to grow

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Speaker 1: like rows and rows of trees or rows and rows

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Speaker 1: of corn. You want to grow a mix of trees

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Speaker 1: and roots and short crops and cultivars and all these

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Speaker 1: different species and variations that would make up like an

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Speaker 1: actual forest. The food forest is approach that a lot

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Speaker 1: of prima culturists would advocate, and within a food forest,

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Speaker 1: you would have I believe seven major groups. This sort

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Speaker 1: of seven levels that creator sort of a beneficial system.

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Speaker 1: On the top layer, you have the canopy, which consists

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Speaker 1: of large fruits and nut trees. They provide the most

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Speaker 1: shade and they keep the whole area they'll climb into

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Speaker 1: the area stable. On that second layer, you're gonna have

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Speaker 1: the low tree layer, which has the dwarf fruit trees.

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Speaker 1: The smaller fruit trees would fall under the canopy. On

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Speaker 1: the third layer, you would have the shrub layer where

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Speaker 1: you would grow you know, your berries and other small

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Speaker 1: you know plants. And below that you have the ubecious

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Speaker 1: layer where you would grow different houbs and spices and

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Speaker 1: things like that. And then below that you have your

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Speaker 1: root vegetables, and below that you have well, you can

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Speaker 1: really go below the roof vegetables, but next to those

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Speaker 1: three vegetables, you would want to grow your soil surface crops,

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Speaker 1: your ground cover um like they're sitting running beans and stuff.

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Speaker 1: That would help to create a groundcover which protects the

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Speaker 1: soil and prevents the establishment of undesirable plants, which we

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Speaker 1: quote wheats. And then finally the seventh layers, the poutical layer,

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Speaker 1: which consists of the climbers and vines. It would establish

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Speaker 1: themselves on the low tree layer and the canopy. So

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Speaker 1: if you have that sort of food forest system in

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Speaker 1: places all those seven layers, you're not getting each function

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Speaker 1: supported by one element to getting it supported by many elements.

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Speaker 1: The same goes for water. You want to get all

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Speaker 1: your water source coming from just like the pipes and

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Speaker 1: whatever water the government sent you, you want to have

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Speaker 1: water coming from the rain. If possible, you might want

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Speaker 1: to tap into the water table, or you might want

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Speaker 1: to depending on your situation. You might have extreme or

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Speaker 1: you might be on a hill, in which case you'd

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Speaker 1: have water flowing down, and you want to find ways

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Speaker 1: to trap that water and to consive that water so

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Speaker 1: that is distributed throughout your system. Unlike regular home garden.

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Speaker 1: Part of the aim of a puma culture um system

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Speaker 1: is that it just like in nature, it waters itself,

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Speaker 1: it takes care of itself, and so you're going to

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Speaker 1: have to want You're gonna want to have all sources

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Speaker 1: of different sources of water elements in place to provide

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Speaker 1: that water. The same goes for energy. You would want

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Speaker 1: to get all the energy from one source. You want

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Speaker 1: to combine you know, human power, animal power, hydro electricity

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Speaker 1: if possible, soul of power if possible. Basically, redundancy is

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Speaker 1: very important. Redundancy is very important, and I'll see it

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Speaker 1: again for emphasis. Redundancy is very important. The next principle,

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Speaker 1: principle number four, is that you want to approach puma

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Speaker 1: culture with energy efficiency in mind, particularly your own energy.

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Speaker 1: So on the more practical side of things, if you

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Speaker 1: you might want to do what my mentor my guide

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Speaker 1: had done, which was a zone and sector analysis. So basically,

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Speaker 1: you draw like a map of your space. You outline

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Speaker 1: your daily patterns and the energies that come from outside

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Speaker 1: your site, like wind and rain and flood and fire

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Speaker 1: and pollution and noise and smells and all these different things.

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Speaker 1: You want to look at how you move through your space.

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Speaker 1: Want look at how the sunshine passes over your space.

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Speaker 1: You want to look at the view and you want

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Speaker 1: to try to harness those good energies, whether it be

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Speaker 1: the rain or wind or whatever it maybe the sun

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Speaker 1: and plant. Accordingly, you don't want to have sun sensitive

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Speaker 1: plants on like the south side of your property of

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Speaker 1: your space wherever the spaces, and you wouldn't want to

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Speaker 1: have plants to eat a lot of sun in the shade.

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Speaker 1: You also want to divvy up your space. Once you've

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Speaker 1: you know, on that map of you space, you're wanted

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Speaker 1: to get up into zoons. So I first zone not

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Speaker 1: be your immediate live in space. The second zone would

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Speaker 1: have an intensive kitchen garden sorry first soon it would

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Speaker 1: be a place of consumption and processing of whatever it

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Speaker 1: is that your system is producing. It doesn't necessarily have

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Speaker 1: to be a house. It could be uh community kitchen,

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Speaker 1: or it can be uh campus clubhouse. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It could be any space that you're using for consumption

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Speaker 1: and processing. The next zone is going to be intensive

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Speaker 1: kitchen garden. It's a place where you would want to

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Speaker 1: grow the plants that cycle through more quickly, UM, the

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Speaker 1: spices and the herbs and the different things that you

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Speaker 1: would use on a regular basis. The next zone I

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Speaker 1: would want to have its focus on local support, community

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Speaker 1: support and surplus. So this zone UM, the first zone

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Speaker 1: is actually technically zone zero. The second zonner Zone one

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Speaker 1: as a Zone two, which is that sort of local

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Speaker 1: support space that orchard is we want to grow, UM,

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Speaker 1: your fruit trees, your ornamentals, UM, I want to raise

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Speaker 1: raise animals there and you basically wanted to be a

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Speaker 1: space where you can provide for the local community, separate

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Speaker 1: and apart from your own produce. Zone three would also

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Speaker 1: have the emphasis on production. Zone three probably the space

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Speaker 1: where you have your main crops, the crops you spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time focusing on. Zone four would also

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Speaker 1: have a lot of investment in establishing a sustainable sort

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Speaker 1: of life cycle um for more long term plants, and

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Speaker 1: Zone five would be a space of wilderness, of forest

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Speaker 1: of wildlife, orridors that allow spaces of free wilding even

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Speaker 1: within your mall constructed site. Having your system split into

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Speaker 1: zones helps you to reduce the amount of work that

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Speaker 1: you put in, the amount of resources use, the amount

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Speaker 1: of maintenance you'll need, and it also helps you to

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Speaker 1: boost to yields and to recycle resources most effectively. The

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Speaker 1: fifth principle is the use of biological resources natural insecticides, timber,

385
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Speaker 1: nitrogen fixers, whatever the case may be, you want to

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Speaker 1: be using the systems that have evolved to fulfill those rules.

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00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: To fulfill those rules, you may or may not be

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Speaker 1: afraid of certain creatures. I myself, personally, I don't like

389
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: frogs or toads or really I don't like most animals personally,

390
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: I just survide with them. However, Comma, I recognize the

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00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: importance right, So frogs and bats and snakes, all of

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00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: these creatures helped provide like a stable system, whether it

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Speaker 1: be a snakes dealing with um crats or bats stealing

394
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: with insects, or frogs also dealing with insects. You men

395
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: want to use companion planting as well, um like the

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Speaker 1: three sisters method, which is a combination of beans, corn,

397
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: and what's the three one again with squashes, right, and

398
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: squash and that would help to establish you know itself

399
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: and maintain itself. It's sort of like a microcosm of

400
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: the Bronda Puber culture concept and one that has been

401
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: in practice funititive years. The sixth principle is the practice

402
00:28:54,440 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: of energy cycling. Trapping sunlight through greenhouses is making the

403
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: most used basically out of the energy that flews through

404
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: your system before it leaves your system, recycling the organic

405
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: matter that passes three system so that produces no real

406
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: waste um. When I was at the site at the

407
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Speaker 1: Puma Culture forest, I witnessed compost toilet for the first

408
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Speaker 1: time and was immediately grossed up by the concept. However,

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Speaker 1: Comma upon being blown away by the product of those

410
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: compost toilets, I changed my tune very quickly. And although

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Speaker 1: I would not I probably would not use a compost

412
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: toilet on a regular basis. I think it has some benefit, um,

413
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: because we're flushing away some some real power, some real

414
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: nutrition stuff. Um. Of course, there are risks associated with

415
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: using human mania, but the process that he had put

416
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: in place involved using human waste um. And then for

417
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: every certain amount of human waste, you dump sawdust on

418
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: top of it. And that sawdust helps to deal with

419
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: the smell um so much so that I actually didn't

420
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Speaker 1: smell anything when I opened up those those compost toilets.

421
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Speaker 1: But it also helps to create that balance between the

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00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: carbon and the nitrogen that is required for compost. And

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Speaker 1: so after that, after a tub has been filled compost toy,

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00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: the toub has been filled, he seals it up, leaves

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00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: it for a year to break down, and by the

426
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: time it comes out it's just like regular soil. However,

427
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: of course safety prequestions, I believe he only uses it

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Speaker 1: for his orchards, so only like fruit trees and other

429
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: kinds of trees. I spent a lot of time so

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Speaker 1: far discussing these sort of larger systems where you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm basically assuming you have several acres of land like

432
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: this guy does. I don't have several leakers of land.

433
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: I don't have an inch of land um, and I

434
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of people listening don't. So there

435
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: are elements that you can incorporate on the small scale,

436
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: such as grew boxes. You can have deep litter beds,

437
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: you can have aquaculture systems, and that's actually one of

438
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: the things that he Foost established um which is like

439
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: a series of aquaculture systems, and it's actually one of

440
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: the main focuses of his project to this day. But

441
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: I was quite surprised as to the yield that could

442
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: be produced from something as simple as a couple of

443
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: pipes put together with some to me to plants grown

444
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: out of it. So I mean, don't underestimate yourself or

445
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: this pace available to you, because it might not be

446
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: able to plant to whole forest, but you can do

447
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: a little something. Coming back to the food forest concept,

448
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: the eighth principle is the use of natural plant succession

449
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,479
Speaker 1: and stack. It you are a group plants together, they

450
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: would give a continuing production over time and both the

451
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: short term and long term. And like I established, you

452
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: want to have those layers in place, the roots, divines,

453
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: the trees, etcetera. The ninth principle encourages diversity, encourages poly culture,

454
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: which is something that I'm sure you would have picked

455
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: up on by now. The tenth principle is increasing the

456
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: edge within a system by creating unique niches that allow

457
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: for the more rare, the more vulnerable corners of life

458
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: to sustain themselves. And I think that's something that a

459
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: lot of pum and culturists do in terms of establishing

460
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: their own systems. They have like a special food cocus,

461
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: certain passion project to certain species that they just love

462
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: and want to see flourish, and so they create these

463
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: niches within their systems that allow allow for those creatures

464
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: to flourish. Principal eleven employers that you observe natural patterns.

465
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: Nature rarely goes in a street line, and you may

466
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: want to make that pattern, whether be spirals or waves

467
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: or branches, whether it be patterns over time from you know,

468
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: the week to the month of the year to repeating

469
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: patterns in the weather or the seasons. You want to

470
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: be observing these patterns and adjusting system continually. The early

471
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: parts of establishing a puma culture system is certainly the

472
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: most difficult part. But even five to ten years down

473
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: the line, when the system is more established, more sell sustaining,

474
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: he still want to be playing that role of tweaking

475
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: it as you go along. And I think that's something

476
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 1: that more people need to recognize about humanity. We didn't

477
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: just spring on to hear like some sort of alien

478
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: parasite leaching off of the youth, right, We just like

479
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: every other animal, like every other creature on this planet,

480
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: have a role to play in the ecosystems we inhabit. Unfortunately,

481
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: a lot of that activity has been destructive because of

482
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: how all socio economic system has been structured. But that's

483
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: something we have a role and changeing. And part of

484
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: that is recognizing that we are stewards. We we we

485
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: can be good stewards. We can't help to facilitate the

486
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: flourishing of life. We don't have to be grim reapers

487
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: upon the systems that we are a part of. And

488
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: so even as you're late, couldn't quote in these long

489
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: term projects twenty years, thirty years, you're still going to

490
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: be tweaking and cultivating and hopefully expanding these systems over time.

491
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: Principles twelve reminds us we gotta pay attention to the

492
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 1: scale of these systems, to the long term of these systems,

493
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: recognizing that this is something you want to establish over generations.

494
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: And finally, Principle number thirteen is be positive experiments small,

495
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: learning from your mistakes, scale up, bringing more people, get involved,

496
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: get more of your community, of your social circle, of

497
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: your family, of your affinity group, of whatever the case

498
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: is going to be, get more people involved. Um in

499
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: imagining this complex, beautiful revolutionary project, we have a long

500
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: way to go, but a lot of prom as could

501
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: be made in a short space of time, and a

502
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: lot of projects already going on. With this ended mind,

503
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: I would sugg just going online really and just switching

504
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: for the different Pooma culture projects happening around the world,

505
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: whether it be the food forests that Jeff law Turner

506
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: is working to establish in Morocco, or the puma culture

507
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: Pumablitz systems that people are putting in place in Australia

508
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: and or the greening the Sahara projects in the Sahel

509
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: region across Africa, or the many small skill projects taking

510
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: place and large scale projects taking place across the America's

511
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: there a lot of people putting in this work, and

512
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: there's a large community, um willing and able to support

513
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: as you hopefully embark upon this journey. That's about it

514
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, that's that's fascinating and I'm really interesting

515
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: is that. I think, Yeah, it's it's massively missing in

516
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: our discussion about like I don't know how to phrase

517
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: this rightly, but like making a better world, just to

518
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: give it a really broad sort of phrasing. And when

519
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: we often think about like political discourse and when we

520
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,959
Speaker 1: think about political systems, but without food systems, we really

521
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: like the hierarchy of needs is not satisfied, right, And

522
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: I think that folks listening can make a really positive change,

523
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: really really quickly and in their own lives and spaces

524
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: if they sort of spend some time with this stuff. Yeah, absolutely,

525
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: and it's cool. I think, um an important to to

526
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: reference that like so much of this like we're like

527
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: the person you named a start who's name I'm sorry

528
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: I've forgotten, but like, um, I think, yeah, it's important

529
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: to a reference that these are indigenous ways of knowing

530
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: and doing and being and living and like you said,

531
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: they've existed for millennia and like going back to that,

532
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: it's good as part of the largest sort of way

533
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: of respecting indigenous cultures and land rights and all the

534
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 1: other things we need to do. Ah, it could happen.

535
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: Here is a podcast that you're listening to, and you know,

536
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: mostly we talk about problems that you should be aware of.

537
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes we talk about solutions, and today we're kind of

538
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: going to talk about a solution. Today is one of

539
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: our famed good News episodes. So everybody, everybody celebrate and

540
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: also give your name for the folks at home. Yea,

541
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 1: I'm James, Yay, I'm Gare, Yeah, I'm Chris. Wonderful. That

542
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: was perfect. That was that is completely natural, just just

543
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: like we practiced. Um. So the thing that the thing

544
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: that is noteworthy and the thing that we're celebrating and

545
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: also explained today, is that this summer we were recording

546
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: this what like a day into September, two days into September, UM,

547
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: so we are we are. Yeah, it's September one. So

548
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: we have officially gotten through the summer um without a

549
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: right wing rally in Portland that degenerates into a gigantic brawl.

550
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: This is the first year that has happened since two

551
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 1: thousands seventeen. So starting in two thousand seventeen, Patriot Prayer

552
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: and the Proud Boys and other affiliated groups would vary

553
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: regularly and they would do it throughout the year, but

554
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: particularly during the summers, um hold protests and marches, and

555
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: these all had different themes. They were the Second Amendment rallies,

556
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: rally against Marxism rally and support of the fucking cops,

557
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: the hymn to rally, all sorts of stupid, stupid fucking

558
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: names um. But the main problem, the main purpose of

559
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: them all was so that there would be gigantic fist

560
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: fights between you know, Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer brawlers

561
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: and anti fascists. That was the reason to hold these events,

562
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: and they got increasingly gnarly and increasingly violent, until everything

563
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: culminated in the summer of this massive Trump caravan through

564
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: the city with like thousands of trucks, people shooting paintballs

565
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: and spraying mace and throwing shipped off the back of trucks,

566
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 1: and then a Patriot Prayer member named Aaron Danielson got

567
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: his ass shot to death by an anti fascist during

568
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: a somewhat unclear altercation outside of a parking garage. What

569
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: I can say is that everyone involved was heavily armed.

570
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: UM and yeah. After that there were some more very

571
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: ugly fights. But UM, an increasing like thing that happened

572
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: was that there would be gunfire at these protests. And

573
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: the next year UM, at an anniversary fucking fistfight thing,

574
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: a right winged administrator fired into a crowd of anti

575
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: fascists in downtown for Portland, who returned fire and drove

576
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 1: him off. He was arrested. UM. A bunch of there

577
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: was a big stupid fight at a kmart in another

578
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: part of town the same day debandoned kmart parking lot

579
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 1: that held a massive brawl and several of them got

580
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: Several of the proud boy types got real nasty charges

581
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: from that one. After the police, as they generally did,

582
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: chose not to take any kind of action. UM and

583
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: then you know, things kind of peat it out, UM

584
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: and nothing. There have not been any right wing rallies since.

585
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: There was one mass shooting attack on a weekly racial

586
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: justice protest in Portland earlier this year, UM, where a

587
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: fascist fired into a crowd of women who were doing

588
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: corking duty. Um he killed one woman, um, and he

589
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: wounded four other people and um, yeah, he was taken down,

590
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: shot twice in the hip by a protester who was

591
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: armed security for that march. And after that there hasn't

592
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: really been anything. And this is the interesting one of

593
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: the things that There's a number of things that are

594
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: interesting here, but one of them is that this has

595
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: occurred while Proud Boy chapters are recording record recruitment. There's

596
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: more new chapters of the Proud Boys than there were

597
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: prior to January six, and there have been at least

598
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: two hundreds something right wing gatherings around the country with

599
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: like Proud Boys and other affiliated groups in attendance since

600
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: January six. UM, So nationwide, the kind of rallies that

601
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: Portland's been sing since got more common, and they didn't

602
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: happen at all in Portland this year. And that's what

603
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: we're here to talk about today. I think there's a

604
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: couple of things that are have contributed to the current

605
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: state of affairs, UM, which I think broadly can be

606
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: described as the right is kind of scared to do

607
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: big events in Portland. There have been a couple of

608
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: like sputtering attempts. They drove through town on their way

609
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 1: to Washington real quickly as part of this caravan once,

610
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: but they didn't go through downtown again. It wasn't like

611
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: one guy did fire it people on a bridge with

612
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: a handgun, which the police did nothing about. But they're

613
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: not willing to like hang around. And I think there's

614
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: a few reasons why they've been scared off. Number One,

615
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: they keep getting shot UM. That has happened several times now. UM.

616
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: Number Two, the physical resistance to them has been gnarlier

617
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: as of the fights. UM, people have gotten smarter about

618
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: how they do some aspects of the fighting, involving like

619
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: a lot of property, like spraying paint on people's fancy

620
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 1: body armor and ship, which is expensive. And then after

621
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: five years of ignoring it, UM, the state has actually

622
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: started charging right wing brawlers with felonies, which has scared

623
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them off. UM. And yeah,

624
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: so that's that's kind of where we are now. And

625
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: I think one of the things people should be paying

626
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: attention to is what Portland's had to do and and

627
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: both how long it took, but also like what kind

628
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: of things were involved to actually get to this point,

629
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: Because other folks are going to need to be willing

630
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: to do some of the ship people had to do

631
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: in Portland for years, which includes like fucking strapping on

632
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: gear and going out to confront these people in the street. Yeah.

633
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: I think, Um, it's really interesting because I just I

634
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: know you've written a piece about this for New Lines

635
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: recurring Me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'll be up by the

636
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: time the ser this runs cool. Um, yeah, I just

637
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: read it. I thought it was really good. Um. It

638
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: reminds me of like when we talk about anti fascism historically, right,

639
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: We we sort of talked about the high points a lot,

640
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,479
Speaker 1: and the one that at least I see most people

641
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: going back to is the Battle of Cable Street in

642
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 1: London in six which people will probably I know you've

643
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: had it in Bastards episodes before, yes, and it's it's

644
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: very similar thing, right, Like it's a broad intersexual coalition

645
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: of people who are like, we will not let you

646
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: do this ship in our space, and we will physically

647
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: fucking stop you, and if the police try and protect you,

648
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: we will stop them doing that as well. There's incidents

649
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 1: between most of these fascists and anti fascists, like throughout

650
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 1: the thirties and a lot later in British history. But

651
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: it's a very similar kind of play book, I guess right.

652
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: It's like physical force opposition to fascist gatherings and not

653
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: letting them feel safe in your space. Yeah, not letting

654
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 1: them feel safe and not letting them go unopposed, because

655
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that was kind of

656
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: repeatedly a factor in Portland is that when the anti

657
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: fascists out numbered the right from the start, and significantly

658
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: there was a lot less violets on on the days

659
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: when that happened, um, And so it wasn't always a

660
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 1: matter of people needing to show up to literally fight.

661
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: There are times when like a show of force can work,

662
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 1: and I think a good example of that in recent

663
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: times in Texas in the DFW area obviously is a

664
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: hot point for different right wing groups, including the Proud

665
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: Boys harassing LGBT events stuff like drag Queen Story Hours

666
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, and members of the elm

667
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 1: Fork John Brown Gun Club who we've had on the

668
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: show and and other affiliated groups have been showing up

669
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: armed in an armor, most recently to protect like a

670
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: drag brunch um that was being counter protested. You can

671
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: see like photos of like here's a proud boat with

672
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: a bat with fucking barbed wire wrapped around it, and

673
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: there there and in this like, you don't show up

674
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: with the bat wrapped in barbed wire unless you're hoping

675
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: you're gonna get to bash somebody's fucking head in. And

676
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: that guy wound up standing off at the sideline all

677
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: day long because a bunch of people were there with rifles.

678
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: I think that guy may not legally be allowed to

679
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: possess firearms. Yes, I also suspect that guy has a

680
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: felony record because he also had a nightstick and like

681
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: several other like more ninja like meamed here weapons. It

682
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: was yeah, yeah, say to me and look if if

683
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to be totally fair, meme to your weapons. No,

684
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: no side in this fight. Because for a long time

685
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: in Portland, there was an individual who would bring a

686
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: pair of Samurai sorts everyone stations and we're we are

687
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 1: talking gas station grade samurai. Did they have the oil

688
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: slick effect? They must have, they must have. No, he

689
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: never drew his blades because of course then he would

690
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: have had they would have had to taste. That's the rule. Yeah,

691
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: that's the legal ramification that also it's impossible to take

692
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: the swords that when you have them mounted on your back,

693
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: it's literally possible to take the tactical back screen. It's

694
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: an offensive position. But no, I think it's worth talking

695
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: about the types of other cities where there have been

696
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: a sizeable amount of far right protests this summer, especially

697
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: targeted at queer people, um, and how Portland is one

698
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: of the cities where that did not happen. I mean,

699
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of stuff in Dallas, and the

700
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: people have been doing a pretty good job and both

701
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 1: denying the right ground to gain but also denying them

702
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: any of their like fight footage that they love to gather.

703
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: They've they've done a really good job at balancing that aspect,

704
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 1: which is very, very challenging. It's very challenging and it

705
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: takes a lot of discipline. And obviously, when we think

706
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: kind of tactically about what guns mean in a situation

707
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: like this, they're tools that have up. The downside of

708
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: guns is that if things go wrong and everybody is strapped,

709
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: the potential is for things to go very fucking wrong. Indeed, Um,

710
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: the upside is that when you have a line of

711
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: people with rifles. The dudes with knives and batons and

712
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: ship are a hell of a lot less likely to

713
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 1: want to start a fucking fight because it's the the

714
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: consequences are immediately obvious. You could look at it as

715
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: kind of like the protest equivalent of mutually assured destruction

716
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: of sort of the old like of of how the

717
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: US of the Soviet Union managed nuclear tensions. Um. But

718
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: it it. It has been very effective in Dallas for

719
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 1: that reason. And I think it's I think the fact

720
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: that protests became increasingly armed in Portland and also that

721
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: there are by my account at least three cases of

722
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: fascists uh being run off or injured or killed by

723
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: protesters with firearms. That is part of why they didn't

724
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: want to do that ship so much anymore. M hmm.

725
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: I think part it's important too, because, like I I

726
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: think there was a real danger after written House that

727
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: right wing protesters We're gonna see this and just be like, no,

728
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: we can just shoot these people, right, because you know,

729
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: you have a situation where suddenly becomes very clear that

730
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: the state is not going to prosecute people if like

731
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: right wing protests for shooting people. But you know, okay,

732
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: if if the if the desterrance is not to say,

733
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: if the insurance is if you get here to get

734
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: into a gunfight, you're gonna lose and get shot like that,

735
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: that I think has been extremely effective in a lot

736
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: of ways. Yeah, early so sort of hadn't. I think

737
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: it's probably worth noting as well that like where it's

738
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: been effective, it's been effective because it's been organized and

739
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: like I don't want to use the word discipline because

740
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: maybe discipline imply the authority that that doesn't exist. But

741
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: like there's been some kind of collective restraint in agreement

742
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: on rules of engagement and stuff, which because I've also

743
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 1: seen folks try to do this unilaternally, that does not

744
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: fucking end well, Like if you're if you're the one

745
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: person I've been carrying and expecting the state where that's

746
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 1: not legal, like you're just to one person going to prison. Yeah,

747
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: and obviously open carry protests only work in states where

748
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 1: that can be done legally. Yeah, doing that in Texas

749
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: is different than doing that in California. Yeah, That's what

750
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: I'm here to tell you. But yeah, I think it's

751
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: a it's a force multiplier, right, Like these guys have

752
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: I think especially people on the right have like absorbed

753
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: so much like this sort of like there are types

754
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: of male as delineated by the Greek alphabet bollocks, and

755
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: they've convinced themselves that they are Alpha's and they can

756
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 1: win a fight. Now, James, I've seen more Sigmas than

757
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: Alpha's protest so many sigmas. I've seen a few epsilons, Man,

758
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 1: I don't know that's the type of male. I met

759
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: a real Sigma at an anti mask protest in who

760
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: brought his a r in a sixty round drum and

761
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: brag that he had five hundred rounds loaded into magazines

762
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: as he as he protested masks in front of the

763
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: state capital. And it was like the people he was

764
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 1: protesting were specifically like about a dozen nurses who were

765
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: standing around. Let's say, it was like, you got do

766
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: you need those five bullets for those unarmed nurses? Where

767
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: signs telling it a mask he's ready for when the

768
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: ship hits the fan romic, I'm guessing. Oh, I I

769
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: don't believe I saw a med kit. I used to

770
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: try to make a note of it. I will say

771
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: the right. In the last year, I've noticed more med

772
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: kits and pictures that I've seen so good good, I

773
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: guess yeah. But yeah, like if you are a person

774
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: who's not like physically enormous or like, like I said,

775
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: these guys have convinced themselves that like they somehow like

776
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 1: top tier brawlers, even though seen the Patriot Front videos

777
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: they're very funny, like it's like a false equalizer. I

778
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: guess right. It allows people to sort of enter that

779
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: space without having to be massive dudes. I don't want

780
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 1: to focus too much on specifically firearms because I think

781
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 1: that's less important than and not that the primary lesson

782
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: of Portland, which is what is necessary to stop these

783
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 1: people from showing up, is consist shows of force. And

784
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: I think one thing that I just kind of always

785
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 1: don't intellectually interesting is that you know, when you when

786
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: you read about like military strategy, right, um, for every

787
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: like guy who's actually kicking indoors getting into firefights in

788
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: the field, you have you know, nine or ten people

789
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 1: behind him who are responsible for logistics, right Um. That's

790
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: the only way in modern military works. When you don't

791
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 1: have a logistics train set up like that, things go

792
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: like they did for Russia start of the advansion, where

793
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 1: you have like hundreds of tanks without fuel and ship UM.

794
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 1: When in Portland protests, an average for a large protest,

795
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 1: I would say the average was around a thousand people.

796
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: Now that's a large protest. Often they were smaller. But

797
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: when you would get these big hyped for a couple

798
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 1: of weeks the Proud Boys are coming to town, you'd

799
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: easily get a thousand or two thousand people counter protesting,

800
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: and you know it would be probably ten or fiftcent

801
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: who were who were showing up specifically ready to kind

802
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 1: of throw down um and ready to throw and also

803
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: with some experience doing it, and a much larger number

804
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: who were Some of them were there as medics, some

805
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: of them were handing out water or other beverages, they

806
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: were handing out food. Uh. There were people who were

807
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: there just to yell and chant with signs to like

808
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: be you know, moral support. There were people they're doing

809
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: transport blocking roads. UM. People they're doing you know, UM

810
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: intel and stuff, filming things UM. People who were there,

811
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: uh you know doing stuff like um covering up live

812
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: streamers cameras with with bubble rap sheets. Or we used

813
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: to have a band full of people who dressed as

814
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: bananas who would kind of kind of try to distract

815
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: and drown out the far right. There was one beautiful

816
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: individual I saw a couple of times who was in

817
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: black block, except for they wore a kilt and they

818
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: carried a pair of bagpipes. And when, like you would

819
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: get a couple of fascists approaching a protester and like

820
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: trying to get into an argument, he would walk right

821
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 1: up and he would just start playing the bagpipes so

822
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: that they couldn't have an offensive. Yeah. Yeah, it was beautiful, um,

823
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: but kind of more important than the specific you do

824
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 1: need and I don't want to like distracted this. You

825
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: always need a core of people who are willing and

826
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,879
Speaker 1: ready to get into a fucking fight when you're doing

827
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: this kind of activism. But the biggest thing is that

828
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: people show up consistently. Um. And one of the things

829
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: Portland's had a number of different organizations like pop Mob,

830
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:22,439
Speaker 1: Popular and more Mobilization that kind of existed to organize

831
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: less radical um or at least kind of and not

832
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: not necessarily less radical. Sometimes people who were just like

833
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 1: because of whatever in their life, were much less interested

834
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: in the actual getting into a fight thing, but understood

835
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 1: that the more people show up the safer it is,

836
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: and succeeded in ensuring that there was like a larger

837
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,399
Speaker 1: body of people at all of these events, and that

838
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: along with more rat groups like Rose City Antifa, who

839
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: kind of particularly earlier in the fights, was a big

840
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: street presence as well as did a lot of research,

841
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: and then other kind of newer um and often kind

842
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: of smaller anti fascist collectives that would organize people to

843
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: straight up fight. It was it was this mix of

844
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 1: all of that that allowed it to be that whenever

845
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: they showed up, there was always a group confronting them,

846
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: and it was nearly always larger um. And it got

847
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: to the point at the height of you know, there

848
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: was this right wing protest before time hand, nobody quite

849
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: knew how bad it was going to be. Garrison. You

850
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: and I got there right as things were starting, and

851
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: it was the anti fascists were outnumbered kind of at

852
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: the beginning of the day, and things got really violent

853
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: very quickly. Within an hour or two though, about somewhere

854
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: around a thousand people had showed up on the anti

855
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: fascist side and we're organized and fighting. It was a

856
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: very impressive response time. Yeah, and I think it is

857
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 1: it's the actual it's the I mean people used the

858
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: word like the term to diversity of tactics often just

859
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: to kind of defend actions that are more radical. Um.

860
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 1: And there's the there's the other side of diversity of tactics,

861
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: which is pulling in all of the background support that

862
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: creates This is the sustainability for more radical actions like

863
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 1: showing up and actually being a frontliner to get into

864
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: fistfights with proud boys. Then there's all of the other stuff,

865
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: like whether that's like medics, other support teams, people playing

866
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: doing like queer dance parties to push fascists out of areas.

867
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: All those types of things not only make the environment

868
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: more sustainable, so people can show up over a larger

869
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 1: period of time because they don't get so burnt out

870
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: because all they're doing is fist fighting. Um. So I

871
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: think those actions are another our thing. That's it's it's

872
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: worth not just ignoring those and not just discrediting those,

873
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: because once you have that type of presence and people

874
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: know that you're gonna that, those are the types of

875
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: environments that you're able to create when you're outnumbered by

876
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: fascists and you need to call and need to need

877
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: to put out a call for support if you if

878
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: you have this kind of reputation that can that can

879
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 1: help get a lot of people out very quickly and

880
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: help with the That actually is like popular mobilization that right,

881
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 1: that that's what that's what that's what that actually means.

882
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: So that's how you can get at the anti fascist

883
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: side to outnumber the fascist side, like we saw in

884
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,399
Speaker 1: um despite that not being the case. When when when

885
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: when it started? Yeah? And I think because the main

886
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: thing that ended that fight was the was the anti

887
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: fascist side just moving as a massive, massive block and

888
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: just pushing the fascists out of the area. Like there's

889
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: as soon as the fascist line broke and you have

890
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 1: like hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of people in Portland

891
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: streets directing the flow of movement, you can't you can't

892
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: stop that. The force. The force is too great, um.

893
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:39,479
Speaker 1: And that requires there to be a large amount of people,

894
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: including people who are not gonna get into a fist

895
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: fight with someone three times their size. Yeah. I think

896
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: another thing, um that that maybe it's important is that

897
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: like and it's kind of at the core of anti fascism, right,

898
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 1: It's it's it's possible for people who have done just

899
00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 1: different tactics, but different opinions, like to create this broad

900
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: based alliance and not get a cross with each other

901
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: for not agreeing on everything. And yeah, or at least, um,

902
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: stop fighting with each other long enough to drive the

903
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: fascists out. Because Portland's, by the way, another thing we

904
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: should acknowledge, the Portland anti fascist community can be quite messy. Um.

905
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: There are a lot of different factions and disagreements, and

906
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: there have been a lot of arguments up to the

907
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: present day. But you know, as a general rule, when

908
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: the right showed up, people mobilized and and threw down

909
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: against them. You know, despite the fact that it was

910
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: a mix of folks who were libs and folks who

911
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 1: were radicals and folks who were you know, um something

912
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: in between. Um it was And again I don't this

913
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: was never a particularly clean process, and it didn't have

914
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: to be. You know, you could point out and and

915
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: if we had longer, we could point out all number

916
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: of different like flaws and shortcomings and like things that

917
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: we're done, that we're wrong or unfair to somebody. But

918
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: what was kind of more important than any of the

919
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: ways in which the movement was flawed was at the

920
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: end of the day, that it persisted, that it kept

921
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: bringing people out, and that it kept resisting, and that

922
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 1: the right seems to have kind of blinked before the

923
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: left did. Here, like that's what what matters more than

924
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: anything about Portland's people felt comfortable enough to continue to

925
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: come out and it felt worthwhile enough. But for the

926
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: anti specifically for the anti fascist protests, they were able

927
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: to create those environments that people that that families were

928
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: felt totally comfortable coming out to UM and people felt

929
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: that it actually was worthwhile, Like there was it was

930
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 1: it was worth it to take an afternoon out of

931
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: your day to show up and say no, and and

932
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 1: and if you're able to physically display no, you can't,

933
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: you can't come here. Yeah, And that was um. You know,

934
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: obviously when we talked about the difference between doing that

935
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: against the police as opposed to the right, you know,

936
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: the police have more in their current form hundred and

937
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 1: fifty have had a hundred and fifty years or so

938
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 1: to dig in. You know, Um, it's a harder target.

939
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think the fact that um, I think

940
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: the fact that one of the strengths of the movement

941
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: in Portland was that as a general rule. A lot

942
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: of people who had a pretty diverse set of beliefs

943
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: all felt this is a thing I can do and

944
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: should do. This is worthwhile and important. These people need

945
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: to be opposed in the streets, and that's worth some

946
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: time out of my very limited fucking free time to

947
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 1: go do um and that That is kind of I

948
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: think the primary lesson if you want to know what

949
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: other cities should take from Portland's, it's the importance of

950
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: developing a community like that, a community information network like that,

951
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 1: but also just like a community where people can all

952
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 1: kind of where where people feel like, yes, it is

953
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: actually it is worthwhile for me to show up and

954
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: participate in this right Like. That's the hard thing is

955
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: getting across When there's, um, you know, a book reading

956
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: at a library, the Proud Boys are going to show

957
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: up in protest. It's it's getting getting the message out

958
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: to people in the area and getting a couple of

959
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: hundred folks to show up, Because if you can get

960
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: two hundred people to show up to something like that,

961
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 1: there's never gonna be that many fucking Proud Boys at

962
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: the event. It's gonna be thirty or forty of them

963
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: or less. Maybe a dozen. And if you're a fucking

964
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,959
Speaker 1: library and twenty proud boys show up to like cause

965
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: a problem, and you've got like a dozen kids inside

966
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: getting read a book or some shit, or it's a brunch,

967
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: and yet thirty proud boys show up, you have a

968
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: huge problem. People would get really hurt. They could get

969
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: fucked up heading to their cars, they can get harassed.

970
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: It's scary if that number of Proud Boys shows up

971
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: and a hundred a hundred and fifty people show up

972
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: to counter them. Um, then suddenly number one, all of

973
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: the people who are being threatened by the fascists get

974
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: this feeling that like, oh my god, I'm actually supported

975
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: by the community, that like people are willing to come

976
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: out and defend me and defend people like me. And

977
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 1: number two, the proud boys get to feel it like

978
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: fuck even even here, we're even in Dallas right where

979
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: we we might be outnumbered. You know, I think because

980
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 1: a few other cities where protests have continued and where

981
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: they haven't, they haven't in Portland, I think yet we've

982
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 1: we've seen a decent amount of activity this year in Salem,

983
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 1: um a lot of blood and there have been far

984
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: right protests in Salem ever since seen as well. Yes.

985
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 1: And the other place that because because I just because

986
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,479
Speaker 1: I just did a deep dive into this is there's

987
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: been a lot of people from the Portland area from

988
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: Vancouver UM planning to go up to port towns in

989
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: Washington and it's been interesting talking with the people up

990
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 1: there about this is the first time they've really seen

991
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 1: a large influx of people. And it's it's people who

992
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: don't it's the proud boys who are not comfortable showing

993
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: up to Portland anymore, but instead they're going to drive

994
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 1: three hours to go to this small town of ten

995
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 1: thousand people. UM. And then watching people in this in

996
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 1: this low laria figure out how they're going to respond

997
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: to this has been super intriguing. There's been a whole

998
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 1: bunch of people. There's been affinity groups in the area

999
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: setting up medic trainings for for queer people who live

1000
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: in the town. UH. There's been meetings between bipoc groups

1001
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 1: and like more like gun based queer groups about how

1002
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 1: they can mutually support each other as the far right

1003
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 1: descends on their city. UM. And in some cases, you know,

1004
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 1: there was people in certain groups who at at previous

1005
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: protests that's happened the past month. They did not feel

1006
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 1: comfortable going out to the front lines of this type

1007
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 1: of thing, but they were able to work with other

1008
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 1: organizers to set up kind of uh like support kind

1009
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: of like uh support like areas and even kind of

1010
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: kind of like they described it as like a picnic

1011
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: that's like a quarter mile away and it creates like

1012
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 1: a buffer zone in between people who want to go

1013
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 1: to the front lines and this whole background of people

1014
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 1: that's supporting you and it's gonna help you out if

1015
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: you need anything. Um So, all the various ways that

1016
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 1: you can, you can incorporate a diversity of strategies and

1017
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: different type of groups into countering something that's moving to

1018
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:10,600
Speaker 1: your city. Now. Um just an interesting note based on

1019
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 1: how much I've I've heard people talk about you know,

1020
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 1: proud boys coming up from Portland and and and Vancouver

1021
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 1: just ending up feeling they have to drive three hours

1022
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 1: to other cities to get you know there whatever whatever

1023
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: they want to do. Yeah, the ideal thing is that

1024
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 1: they walk away not even beat up as much as

1025
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 1: demoralized and feeling like it was a waste of time

1026
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,520
Speaker 1: and money. Ideally, they in their gear, get covered and

1027
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 1: fucking paint or something, um, and they lost six hours

1028
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:45,479
Speaker 1: of time on a fucking Saturday. And if that kind

1029
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: of happens repeatedly, maybe they'll stop, you know, which is

1030
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: which is again the goal is for them to uh

1031
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 1: feel like it's not worth coming out, you know, like

1032
01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 1: that's what like people. It's often said like, you know,

1033
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 1: make racists a freight again is a statement you heard

1034
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: a lot, particularly after But it's a little more complicated

1035
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 1: than that. It's not purely about fear. It's also it's hopeless.

1036
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:11,959
Speaker 1: You want to make them hopeless. You want to feel

1037
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 1: make them to feel like there's no fucking point in

1038
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: showing up. And that's the most valuable thing, is a

1039
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 1: victory condition. That's that's above everything else, is making them

1040
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 1: feel like there is no hope for their movement. I

1041
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 1: think that the most recent as as a time of recording,

1042
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 1: there was there was this protest on the UM that

1043
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 1: was a mix of like turfs and then a mix

1044
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,919
Speaker 1: of far right people. There's this guy from Vancouver called

1045
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 1: the Common Sense Conservative who runs a little like video

1046
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 1: blog thing um that he was organizing some people to

1047
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 1: go up and I don't know, it's it's it's there

1048
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, it's like thirty people, lots of them

1049
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: from out of state who traveled up as a part

1050
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: of this, like Turf Anti transside, and there was like

1051
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 1: three hundred to four hundred people from the local area

1052
01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:59,919
Speaker 1: who showed up and we're like, no, you're not gonna

1053
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 1: to this of And ever since then there's been a

1054
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 1: lot of infighting between the Turfs and the kind of

1055
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 1: more far right people because it sucks. It sucks that

1056
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 1: you have three people from the actual city that show

1057
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 1: up and go no and try to like physically remove

1058
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 1: you from this space. And I think you can sort

1059
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: of see mirrors of this and like the way left,

1060
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 1: just like protest work right where it's like it's it's

1061
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 1: a lot easier to hold together coalitions when you're winning,

1062
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: and the moment you start losing, the moment things start

1063
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: going wrong, like all of the infighting comes back and

1064
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: you know the entire movement will just tostegrate. And this

1065
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: this works the same way on the right if you

1066
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 1: can if you can actually beat them consistently a few times,

1067
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 1: and you can start like holding on long enough for

1068
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 1: their their internal group dynamics to unravel. Like this, this

1069
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 1: is a way to beat them. Yeah, yep. Um, well

1070
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 1: that's about all I had to say, not a complicated

1071
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 1: topic anything else, all right? Well, well as uh yeah, anyway,

1072
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 1: go up, go go yellow the fucking Nazi. Um, go

1073
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 1: go damage a fascists body armor by spraying them with

1074
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: paint from a great distance. You know, go go. Uh,

1075
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, do something else? Uh? By what's kyling?

1076
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 1: Your Written House? Oh? In in our in our Centenius

1077
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 1: Cultural Center. Ya remember Kyle written House. Remember Remember that

1078
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: night where I spent way too much time online finding

1079
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 1: that kid's name, and then he was arrested a few

1080
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 1: hours later, and then he got off after murdering these people.

1081
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 1: Remember when that happened. I do. So you're saying that

1082
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: you're in some way responsible for what we're going to

1083
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: talk about today. No, this is not. This is one

1084
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 1: of the most truly cursed things that I have ever

1085
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:16,520
Speaker 1: seen on the internet that that man has ever existed.

1086
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 1: So I know people are just learning about this now,

1087
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:21,720
Speaker 1: but I've known about this for a while because I

1088
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 1: kind of have a personal obsession with Kyle Rittenhouse for

1089
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 1: reasons that should be obvious. Um uh yeah, I've been,

1090
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: I've been. I'ven't about this for a bit. I just

1091
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 1: have never found a good time to bring it up.

1092
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: But I guess, I guess, I guess we've now found it,

1093
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:41,600
Speaker 1: which is it's Kyle in time. Yeah, it's time to

1094
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: talk about the central cultural Kyle Rittenhouse, which exists in Argentina.

1095
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:52,920
Speaker 1: As part of I think maybe we'll explain a little

1096
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 1: bit about like what the broader contact of these central sits,

1097
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 1: like what they are if people aren't familiar, and then

1098
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 1: what the fuck this abomination is all about? Right? So

1099
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 1: these exist across Latin America more or less. Also, I've

1100
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 1: seen him in Spain, the Spanish speaking world, but I

1101
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 1: think that's like a reflective thing, going back to Spain.

1102
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 1: And they're like community spaces. They they're very hugely but

1103
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,680
Speaker 1: I've been two different ones. They've nearly always left this

1104
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,719
Speaker 1: or at least progressive, and their spaces where sometimes people

1105
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 1: can go and meet, right, communities can meet. Sometimes they're

1106
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 1: like cultural events, talks, you can borrow books. Often like

1107
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 1: their associated with neighborhood movements or what we might broadly

1108
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 1: call like anarchism. But sometimes it's yeah, explicit, sometimes it's

1109
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 1: it's not. It's like a communally center type thing. The

1110
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 1: closest thing we would have here would probably be like

1111
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 1: info shops, but those kind of differ based on what

1112
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 1: kind of anarchist infoshop you're at. Um. But yeah, they're

1113
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 1: like like community gathering places you can pick up books

1114
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 1: or whatever. And this one's a little bit a little

1115
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 1: bit odd. Yeah, yeah, because it is very much not

1116
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 1: left if it claims me, Argentina's first openly right, it's

1117
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,639
Speaker 1: cultural center, and it's run by this guy called Josse

1118
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 1: a dead Man. He is a poster, right, This is

1119
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 1: the guy who many people will have become aware of today.

1120
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 1: I have spent most of my day watching his content

1121
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 1: on the internet. Good for you, it's great, and I

1122
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: love my job. I took three days off, I went camping,

1123
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:36,800
Speaker 1: and then I just retoxified my brain with this ship immediately. Yeah,

1124
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 1: it's okay, So obviously dead Man right. The reason that

1125
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:44,160
Speaker 1: we are interested in him today is a because of

1126
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:49,040
Speaker 1: his truly cursed posting history and be because the anti

1127
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 1: terrorist police in Argentina raided the Central Court rittenhouse last night.

1128
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 1: I've got some audio of the raid which they went.

1129
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:02,040
Speaker 1: We have to we have to play the studio of

1130
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 1: the race. Yeah, yeah, there were flashbangs, So we're there

1131
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 1: were guns. There were a lot of guys in plate carriers.

1132
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 1: That's wild. Just the that's like the first real time

1133
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:27,000
Speaker 1: anything related to cal Writon House has faced any sort

1134
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 1: of consequence, that's right, Yeah, based Argentinean cops. Well, again,

1135
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 1: they can only do things that are funny, that's true.

1136
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:41,719
Speaker 1: And this is and raiding a Kylendhouse themed cultural center

1137
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:45,640
Speaker 1: is funny, is very funny. This is extremely funny, Like,

1138
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 1: this is one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

1139
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 1: As they go in, you're going to see some some

1140
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 1: of not only artistically offensive, but really offensive in every

1141
01:11:56,360 --> 01:12:01,400
Speaker 1: way murals. So they're really bad, Yeah, very incredibly bad.

1142
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 1: The right is not good at street art, no, I mean,

1143
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 1: and this is this is this is the real problem

1144
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:08,600
Speaker 1: that they have. As is sort of like strategy of

1145
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 1: like trying to mirror sort of left wing cultural spaces.

1146
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:13,639
Speaker 1: Is that like as as annoying as like left wing

1147
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 1: cultural spaces are like right wing cultural spaces are like

1148
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,599
Speaker 1: the worst thing to be and you can possibly imagine

1149
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 1: because there's nobody like every single one of these people

1150
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 1: is completely insufferable. And again, let left left left wing

1151
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:26,640
Speaker 1: sort of like social rude, but it's always buffered by

1152
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 1: the fact that they have an incredible number of very

1153
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 1: talented artists. These guys like the Donald Trump with the

1154
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 1: squad head is I don't think you would describe it

1155
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: as as as quality artists. Responsible for the for the

1156
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 1: murals at the Kyle Written House Cultural Center, Yeah, he

1157
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 1: did them himself. There their videos. So do we want

1158
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:49,680
Speaker 1: to talk about what before? We before talking about like

1159
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 1: why this was rated? Wan to talk about like what

1160
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:55,280
Speaker 1: this actually is and like whysts like like where did

1161
01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 1: this come from? Okay? So this comes pretty much out

1162
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 1: of this. He seems to some of his earlier posts

1163
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 1: about centership of Dragon Ball Z like oh my god, yeah,

1164
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: which I will not profess. I've probably it's probably Z,

1165
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:16,639
Speaker 1: isn't it? Okay? Okay, alright, so I've I've given myself

1166
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 1: away as a non anime understander at the outset. I

1167
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:23,640
Speaker 1: don't know why it was censored, and he claims that

1168
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,599
Speaker 1: it was. He uses a phase like Femi bolshi a

1169
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:30,400
Speaker 1: lot Femi bolshe which I'm guessing is a portmanteau of

1170
01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 1: feminist in Bolshevik, and he is a card. You're probably right, Yeah,

1171
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:42,120
Speaker 1: so he's definitely an in. So, yes, the feminists are

1172
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 1: censoring DBZ and this means I need to start a

1173
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:50,240
Speaker 1: fascist hangout spot. Yeah, that's that's the journey of this. Yeah,

1174
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 1: well more or less, I guess it seems to really

1175
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 1: come out of the lockdown. It seems to come out

1176
01:13:55,600 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 1: of him being unemployed from March. There's a big anti

1177
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:06,639
Speaker 1: lockdown group in Argentina called fuerts Ony Dadda Argentina, which

1178
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 1: he's part of. And that that's if you look. Actually

1179
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 1: it says like Carl written House Cultural Center, and then

1180
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:16,080
Speaker 1: it has fuess ony Daddia written underneath um, and so

1181
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: that seems to be a large part of it. It

1182
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 1: opened relatively recently. I was looking for an exact date,

1183
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:24,640
Speaker 1: but I couldn't find it. But it is within the

1184
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 1: last year, Yes it has. It has been within the year.

1185
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:32,639
Speaker 1: I remember seeing something about this earlier this year. Um,

1186
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 1: just to recap some of the art, maybe because it

1187
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:42,720
Speaker 1: didn't like art's a strong word, paintings depictures. Yeah, art

1188
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:45,720
Speaker 1: requires a few a few things to make it actually art.

1189
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:49,200
Speaker 1: I don't think the stuff qualifies as as art. No,

1190
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 1: but and some of them I genuinely was unable to

1191
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:55,600
Speaker 1: discern who are they supposed to be? It's really difficult,

1192
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 1: Like it's it's kind of hard to tell who Trump

1193
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: is and it's Trump. This is this is this is

1194
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 1: this is how. This is the level of artists we're

1195
01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:06,920
Speaker 1: dealing with. Your Yeah, trap looks like someone out of

1196
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: Minecraft or something like. His head is entirely square. The

1197
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 1: width is equal to the height. Yeah, which, but they've

1198
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:15,400
Speaker 1: they've got One of the guys I saw was this

1199
01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 1: guy called Malvo. Do people know who he is? Perhaps not? Okay,

1200
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 1: this is probably one that we won't include the video

1201
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 1: of in the podcast. But so he was. He went

1202
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 1: to prison because he tortured leftists as a copy in

1203
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:31,920
Speaker 1: Argentina in the seventies, right, and then he escaped and

1204
01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:34,120
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, the cops come to his

1205
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:36,639
Speaker 1: house to take him back, and instead of going back

1206
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 1: to Jaila Live TV in front of his wife and children,

1207
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:44,840
Speaker 1: he shoots himself. Like they just keep rolling, the reporters

1208
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:46,719
Speaker 1: like five feet away and they're like, oh, he shoves

1209
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:50,520
Speaker 1: up in the head. He's down, and now he's immortalized

1210
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 1: by Yeah. That looks like a five year old in

1211
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,000
Speaker 1: cells finger painting on the walls. This is this is

1212
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:02,519
Speaker 1: what happens when people follow their leader. Alert. Yeah, it's true.

1213
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:08,160
Speaker 1: So there's there's other people there. There's Heavier Malay. I

1214
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:11,960
Speaker 1: think he's called he's like he's a classic chud libertarian.

1215
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:17,280
Speaker 1: He's an Argentine politician. They of course have a Confederate flag.

1216
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:20,680
Speaker 1: They have banners from the Argentine Civil War. There's an

1217
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:26,360
Speaker 1: imperial Japanese flag. Yeah, next to Donald Trump, like the

1218
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,479
Speaker 1: kind of I'm just looking at like the front like

1219
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 1: banner thing or like the front like mural at the

1220
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 1: editor's horrible horrible picture of Kyle Rittenhouse wearing a suit

1221
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:47,519
Speaker 1: that it looks so funny. It's like it's the the

1222
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:53,040
Speaker 1: the image is just amazing. It's god they have they

1223
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 1: have Okay, I will say it looks like I drew

1224
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:59,719
Speaker 1: it blindfolded with my left hand. Like it looks so bad.

1225
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 1: The one thing, okay, I I think they're well, okay.

1226
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 1: Their depiction of Bollsonaro, like it's fine. It kind of

1227
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:11,640
Speaker 1: captures the grotesqueness of him. But he's doing finger guns

1228
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:17,479
Speaker 1: guns with the Brazilian flag behind him. Remember remember this

1229
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 1: started with DVZ. Here, Yeah, written houses like giant thing

1230
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 1: has like what what is it? The two holes, the

1231
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 1: two blacks on his face eyepatch, But no, it's not.

1232
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:35,400
Speaker 1: It's like two or three black circles on the inside

1233
01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 1: mineral of written house. It looks like he's wearing an eyepatch,

1234
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 1: like some kind of night vision optic. Maybe also as

1235
01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 1: a Kyler written House expert who spent hours coming through

1236
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:47,120
Speaker 1: the clothing he was wearing. They have his hat completely wrong.

1237
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:51,680
Speaker 1: They have here like a reddish pinkish hat. That's not

1238
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 1: the hat that he was wearing. He was wearing a

1239
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 1: tan hat with with a white back mesh. Um and

1240
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 1: the hat was the reason were able to figure out

1241
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 1: who he was because it has a little tear in

1242
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 1: the front and we were able to compare that to

1243
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 1: get an exact match onto the suspects Facebook profile. Um,

1244
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:12,120
Speaker 1: so the hat is completely wrong. So already they've they've

1245
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:16,720
Speaker 1: dropped the ball here on any semblance of accuracy by

1246
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:20,919
Speaker 1: the completely rung hat for this picture. It's I'm insulted.

1247
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:24,639
Speaker 1: As someone who spent hours figuring out what this guy's

1248
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:28,559
Speaker 1: name is, I'm insulted. Yeah, there's all kind of cursed stuff.

1249
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:33,400
Speaker 1: This Abascale, the box guy from Spain, like anyone who

1250
01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:35,719
Speaker 1: you can think of he's just like a culture warrior

1251
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 1: is depicted in finger painting style by this guy by

1252
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:47,719
Speaker 1: Hosy death Man. So he he came to the attention

1253
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:49,360
Speaker 1: of the author well, actually he came to the attention

1254
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:54,280
Speaker 1: of the authorities before. It will shock nobody to find

1255
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:57,400
Speaker 1: that he has been sending untolisted images of his genitalia

1256
01:18:57,479 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 1: to women for a very long time. So he's been

1257
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:01,920
Speaker 1: sending got a lot of are you telling me? The

1258
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:05,160
Speaker 1: dragon ball z in Cel, who started a Kyle written

1259
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:08,559
Speaker 1: host cultural center, has been sending out unsolicited dick fix.

1260
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:14,360
Speaker 1: I wonder if what Okay, hold on, hold on, I

1261
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:16,280
Speaker 1: just I think I think I just had a revelation

1262
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:18,920
Speaker 1: about this guy. Did you just crack this case wide open?

1263
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:23,679
Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, Yeah, I can't wait to hear

1264
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:26,080
Speaker 1: what you've come out with. I am on the edge

1265
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 1: of edge of my seat. I am thrilled. All right,

1266
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:32,439
Speaker 1: I only have to hand them on their Facebook page,

1267
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:36,719
Speaker 1: which is toxic as hell. Yeah, their face. Their Facebook

1268
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:40,599
Speaker 1: is pretty funny. They have a video of a woman

1269
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:43,439
Speaker 1: in the side of the culture yea. When the woman

1270
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 1: comes in there, like just to prove it's a woman.

1271
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:47,800
Speaker 1: People say women don't come here like we have a woman.

1272
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 1: They've filmed like of like a like a five minute

1273
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,920
Speaker 1: video of this woman sitting inside, just so there was

1274
01:19:55,040 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 1: proof that there was a woman inside this building. Yeah,

1275
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 1: they were so shocked. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's very clear

1276
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 1: that like they had not been expecting it. So he's

1277
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 1: actually been to jail for gender based online violence. I

1278
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:10,400
Speaker 1: think I figured out how this connects Dragon ball Z.

1279
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 1: My Okay, I'm not a percent sure about this. My

1280
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:18,360
Speaker 1: guess is that this guy is like a hard line. Um,

1281
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:21,639
Speaker 1: I've never actually heard this guy's names out loud. Vic

1282
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 1: Mignagna like truth or guymig Vagot is like this. He

1283
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:27,880
Speaker 1: was a voice actor who was on Dragon ball Z

1284
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: who like sexually harassed and assaulted like a ship ton

1285
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 1: of people. Um, And in twenty nineteen, like the stuff

1286
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:38,240
Speaker 1: came out and there was like a huge right wing

1287
01:20:38,280 --> 01:20:41,240
Speaker 1: backlash around him, And I really wonder if this is

1288
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:46,040
Speaker 1: the fucking thing that he was mad about. He was

1289
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:50,639
Speaker 1: this voice actor that got canceled because his favorite voice

1290
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:54,360
Speaker 1: actor got canceled for sexually Celtic people. Yeah, well so

1291
01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:57,120
Speaker 1: so Vic tried to, like the voice actor guy tried

1292
01:20:57,160 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 1: to sue a bunch of people for defamation and got

1293
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:02,479
Speaker 1: fucking apps lutely owned in court, and then all of

1294
01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:04,680
Speaker 1: the ship that he'd been doing for like decades like

1295
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 1: came out. So it would not surprise me if this

1296
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:10,280
Speaker 1: was like part of this guy, like if this is

1297
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:12,080
Speaker 1: part of the thing he was sucking screaming about with

1298
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:16,320
Speaker 1: dragon ball Zy being censored. But the feminist Bolsheviks, Yeah,

1299
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 1: that's the worst thing I've ever said. This is the

1300
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:20,560
Speaker 1: worst organization ever had in my life. Yeah, that's a

1301
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 1: kind of I think a large part of this cultural

1302
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:26,080
Speaker 1: center and the kind of the stuff behind it stems

1303
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:29,320
Speaker 1: out of a whole bunch of like the anti communist

1304
01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 1: groups that have existed in Argentina for a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1305
01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:37,080
Speaker 1: his like so all his videos he has his backpack

1306
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:39,040
Speaker 1: with like a hammer and sickle with like that no

1307
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 1: you know, the circling line through it. And he then

1308
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:47,599
Speaker 1: that he stages that everywhere with him, and he has

1309
01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 1: like something he has like a bunch of anti communist

1310
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:55,439
Speaker 1: graffiti that he also you'll see him in his h

1311
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:58,960
Speaker 1: like in his Facebook profile it used to say sometimes

1312
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:01,320
Speaker 1: anti social always anti communist, and it had like the

1313
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:06,519
Speaker 1: yellow and black little thing and yeah, and he's he's betrayed.

1314
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:09,160
Speaker 1: I think the tweet that first announced it betrayed them

1315
01:22:09,200 --> 01:22:16,040
Speaker 1: as like libertarian and caps, which like they have like

1316
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:20,200
Speaker 1: better dead than red. That's not a fucking ang cap.

1317
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 1: But like these people are trying to revoke the era

1318
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:25,720
Speaker 1: of violence against the left in Argentina in the nineteen seventies, right,

1319
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 1: Like that's where they're going for here. Yeah, I think

1320
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:31,760
Speaker 1: like in case people are not aware of this, Argentina

1321
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 1: had a like an incredibly brutal military data show killed

1322
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 1: the ships on people. Also like went around Latin America

1323
01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:40,840
Speaker 1: trading other death squads. They had this group called the

1324
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 1: Triple A, which was basically a fascist death squad that

1325
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:47,360
Speaker 1: sort of actor as a pre military for other wings

1326
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 1: of the state. They killed one of people. Eventually they

1327
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,599
Speaker 1: kill the governments. Um, they're one of the people involved

1328
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:56,479
Speaker 1: in Operation Condor. They drop people at helicopters. Also they yeah,

1329
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:59,719
Speaker 1: it was really fucking bad. And and and these anti

1330
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 1: these like anti communists they basically fascist death squads or

1331
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:09,760
Speaker 1: some of them fascist literally fascist. Yes, are like the

1332
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:12,479
Speaker 1: style of slogans. The propaganda that they're using for this

1333
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:15,400
Speaker 1: center is in the same vein as that they're carrying

1334
01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:18,839
Speaker 1: that tradition in Argentina, and I think people are familiar

1335
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:23,080
Speaker 1: with the Nazis. People should also probably probably somewhat familiar

1336
01:23:23,360 --> 01:23:27,960
Speaker 1: with the the the whole thing with tons of tons

1337
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:31,519
Speaker 1: of Nazis fleeing to Argentina um and Argentina being very

1338
01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:33,800
Speaker 1: welcoming to a whole bunch of like like like like

1339
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 1: like German Nazi like actual like Nazi Nazis, like like

1340
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 1: with membership God, not Third Reich Nazis. Yeah. So one

1341
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:46,080
Speaker 1: thing that the that he did, one thing that dead

1342
01:23:46,120 --> 01:23:49,080
Speaker 1: man did or he they posted as we on their

1343
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 1: Facebook page with last mathday's dela plaza da mio. They

1344
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:55,800
Speaker 1: are like these mothers who made this weekly protest I

1345
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:57,920
Speaker 1: think it was weekly, and they wore white handkerchiefs, right,

1346
01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:01,599
Speaker 1: and they were like where are I disappeared children? And

1347
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 1: they sort of mobilized maternity in this way that made

1348
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:06,559
Speaker 1: it very hard for the state to crack down on them, right,

1349
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:09,360
Speaker 1: especially a state which is all about like quote unquote

1350
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 1: traditional gender roles or whatever you want to call it. Um.

1351
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 1: So these mothers are like held up as a great

1352
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:21,320
Speaker 1: example of peaceful protest, of peaceful protests against dictatorship, right

1353
01:24:21,320 --> 01:24:25,639
Speaker 1: of forcing them to acknowledge their crimes. They're they're looked

1354
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:27,200
Speaker 1: up to by a lot of people all around the world,

1355
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:30,040
Speaker 1: and he and his bros went out and vandalized a

1356
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:32,960
Speaker 1: monument to them and then posted about it on their

1357
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:36,080
Speaker 1: Facebook like pretty openly, like we did this, look at

1358
01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:40,880
Speaker 1: us go so generally pretty much piece of ship guy.

1359
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:44,760
Speaker 1: And he claims that the real he was radicalized by

1360
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 1: torturous sexual abstinence, which is enforced upon him by the

1361
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 1: government with the COVID nineteen lockdown. Aha, So he's claiming

1362
01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:57,800
Speaker 1: to be a var cell and not an him cell

1363
01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:01,160
Speaker 1: or c that's have said this too long, I mean,

1364
01:25:01,360 --> 01:25:03,600
Speaker 1: and if it's first on by the government, then it

1365
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:08,760
Speaker 1: is involuntary. Yes, yeah, okay, I guess I guess some

1366
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:15,800
Speaker 1: men right here. We don't need to continue the conversation.

1367
01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:22,160
Speaker 1: It actually doesn't matter. No, he was unable to find

1368
01:25:22,160 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 1: intimacy with the people he wanted to and therefore decided

1369
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:28,599
Speaker 1: to send them pictures of his penis instead and then

1370
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 1: start a cultural center themed after Kyle Rittenhouse. That's correct. Yeah,

1371
01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of like I did a lot

1372
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 1: of stuff on like the aftermath of the Written House

1373
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 1: shooting as well, and we immediately saw a whole bunch

1374
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:44,200
Speaker 1: of a big wave of written House stuff in the

1375
01:25:44,479 --> 01:25:48,519
Speaker 1: better Dead than Read and anti communist action type like memes,

1376
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:50,920
Speaker 1: And I think that this very much stems out of

1377
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 1: that tradition as well, at the cow written House being

1378
01:25:53,240 --> 01:25:57,080
Speaker 1: this like symbol of here is a shining example of

1379
01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:59,360
Speaker 1: someone who actually put in the work to kill communists

1380
01:25:59,439 --> 01:26:03,800
Speaker 1: quote un communists obviously. Um. And I think that with

1381
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:07,759
Speaker 1: with the whole kind of like anti communist death squad

1382
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:10,120
Speaker 1: framing of this, that matches up with a lot of

1383
01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:12,360
Speaker 1: the kind of the memes that we're that we're circulating

1384
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:17,000
Speaker 1: in the weeks after the original shooting in Kenosha, And

1385
01:26:17,040 --> 01:26:19,800
Speaker 1: we can see this as like a physical manifestation of

1386
01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:23,360
Speaker 1: that type of mimetic messaging, like this is like a

1387
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:27,160
Speaker 1: it's a it's a physical version of that of course

1388
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:30,600
Speaker 1: incorporating into just a larger kind of right wing populist politics,

1389
01:26:31,240 --> 01:26:35,120
Speaker 1: uh you know, veering onto fascism um. And I think

1390
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:40,360
Speaker 1: it's but specifically with like the anti communist action and

1391
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 1: better Dead than Red type type memes that were using

1392
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:46,840
Speaker 1: written House, that is a very a very clear kind

1393
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:51,040
Speaker 1: of uh nexus point between these two things, Like why

1394
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:54,160
Speaker 1: is someone in Argentina super into Cowritten House. It's it's

1395
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:56,960
Speaker 1: because of this we already have this big strain of

1396
01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:00,519
Speaker 1: anti communist stuff inside Argentina. Kyle and how was used

1397
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:03,160
Speaker 1: me medically in this way? Very easy thing for the

1398
01:27:03,280 --> 01:27:09,599
Speaker 1: right there to use. I think, I don't know. I think, Um, James,

1399
01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:11,439
Speaker 1: do you have Do you have any other fun facts

1400
01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:14,400
Speaker 1: about this? Yeah? I do, Yeah, I do. So there

1401
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:16,600
Speaker 1: seems to be another guy who does most of the

1402
01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:20,120
Speaker 1: speaking for them when they speak to the media. He

1403
01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:24,400
Speaker 1: only gives his name once as do like ju, but

1404
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 1: then he also wait for it because he claims to

1405
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:32,400
Speaker 1: have Jewish ancestry as well, and therefore they can't be

1406
01:27:32,439 --> 01:27:36,880
Speaker 1: anti Semitic. So very troubling. Maybe I'm pronouncing that wrong,

1407
01:27:36,920 --> 01:27:38,920
Speaker 1: but you know, I can't think of another way. It's

1408
01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:42,640
Speaker 1: only two letters, so extremely troubling. One thing that I

1409
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:44,400
Speaker 1: did know is what is there's a whole lot of

1410
01:27:44,479 --> 01:27:47,439
Speaker 1: quote unquote gender ideology talk right, and a lot of

1411
01:27:47,479 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 1: cultural Marxism talk. So here's a guy who's extremely online

1412
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:55,920
Speaker 1: and is parenting these kind of Ben Shapiro American Right

1413
01:27:56,800 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 1: talking points. You can also like One thing that's very

1414
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:04,559
Speaker 1: funny is there appears to be a punk band called

1415
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:09,519
Speaker 1: war Pigs who are selling I think it's figurines, like

1416
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 1: World Cup figurines preps which they are selling. Mundy, it's

1417
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:18,240
Speaker 1: the word he used. They seem to be basically pretending

1418
01:28:18,280 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 1: to be him online selling these figurines, pretending their fundraising

1419
01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:23,599
Speaker 1: for his center, but then they're obviously using the money

1420
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:27,719
Speaker 1: for their anti fascist efforts. That is incredibly bad. Shout

1421
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:31,720
Speaker 1: out to them, war Pigs, look him up. Yeah, they

1422
01:28:31,920 --> 01:28:34,360
Speaker 1: give him some money if you can buy so funny.

1423
01:28:34,760 --> 01:28:37,640
Speaker 1: He gets so fucking mad about it. He made so

1424
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 1: many videos about it. And then his parents were like

1425
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 1: he talks about them as heroes of the Marxist movement

1426
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:50,639
Speaker 1: and like leftists and revolutionaries. So he's thirty eight now,

1427
01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:55,880
Speaker 1: so his parents will have been young in the seventies

1428
01:28:56,040 --> 01:29:00,880
Speaker 1: perhaps but certainly certainly like around in the period in

1429
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,920
Speaker 1: their teens and tw empties. And he talks about like

1430
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:06,000
Speaker 1: how his parents recruel to him, and how the supposed

1431
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 1: Marxists like bullied him, how he he says at one

1432
01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:14,200
Speaker 1: point he has Tourette's. They forced him to do treatments,

1433
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:17,800
Speaker 1: which he claims curtails his opportunities to meet women. But

1434
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 1: he only mentioned this once and he sort of goes

1435
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:22,640
Speaker 1: off on these weird diversions. Yeah, it's a lot of

1436
01:29:22,800 --> 01:29:26,439
Speaker 1: very basic kind of online and cell type stuff. I

1437
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:28,280
Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about the sort of

1438
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:31,640
Speaker 1: trans ale on this too, because I think so one

1439
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:33,120
Speaker 1: of the things I think like is not very well

1440
01:29:33,160 --> 01:29:36,400
Speaker 1: known that at some point I will do a full

1441
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:38,680
Speaker 1: episode on when I find when I'm able to like

1442
01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:41,160
Speaker 1: get enough stuff together and find people who are like

1443
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:44,280
Speaker 1: really qualified to talk about it. But Argentina has had

1444
01:29:44,360 --> 01:29:46,360
Speaker 1: one of the world's most powerful trans movements for a

1445
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:49,200
Speaker 1: long time. And I mean they have stuff there that

1446
01:29:49,400 --> 01:29:52,320
Speaker 1: like like there, there's there, there is a law that

1447
01:29:52,360 --> 01:30:01,160
Speaker 1: passed um I think last year or that that like

1448
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:03,280
Speaker 1: that they have like a hiring quota, so all for

1449
01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:05,880
Speaker 1: public service job, there's a one percent hiring quota of

1450
01:30:05,880 --> 01:30:09,600
Speaker 1: people who have to be trans. Like. Yeah, they're like

1451
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 1: they they have stuff. They're like they have done stuff

1452
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:16,280
Speaker 1: there that is like like not even like on the

1453
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:19,639
Speaker 1: agenda for like any other like trans woven I've ever seen.

1454
01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:24,040
Speaker 1: So Yeah, they're they're they're very strong, they're very well organized,

1455
01:30:24,120 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 1: and the government has sort of like has done like

1456
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:29,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of like genuinely very good, like pro trans stuff,

1457
01:30:30,000 --> 01:30:32,760
Speaker 1: like under the pressure of this movement, and I think

1458
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:34,559
Speaker 1: that I think like in that context, I think his

1459
01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 1: this fact that he's obsessed with like gender critical ship

1460
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:40,160
Speaker 1: makes a lot of soundse because that's you know, that's

1461
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:42,600
Speaker 1: like one of the sort of right wing things in

1462
01:30:42,720 --> 01:30:46,160
Speaker 1: Argentina is opposing this ship. But like it doesn't. I

1463
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 1: don't know, they're kind of losing that battle insofar as

1464
01:30:48,760 --> 01:30:51,040
Speaker 1: like you know, people people have done a really really

1465
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:54,360
Speaker 1: good job and fought really really desperate and sort of

1466
01:30:54,400 --> 01:30:57,920
Speaker 1: horrible battles for decades. But yeah, they're they're they're sort

1467
01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:02,479
Speaker 1: of bearing fruit in really cool way. Is respect nice

1468
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:06,160
Speaker 1: good job, and so what else is bearing fruit is

1469
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 1: his posting because he has been rated by I would

1470
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:14,439
Speaker 1: urge you towards this video. I'll tweet it so people

1471
01:31:14,439 --> 01:31:17,840
Speaker 1: can find it there as well. But a metric ship

1472
01:31:17,840 --> 01:31:22,080
Speaker 1: ton of our police. And the reason they're rating him

1473
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 1: is because he's made like a public threat. Basically he

1474
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:28,640
Speaker 1: made this say. It's about eleven and a half minute video. Notably,

1475
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:31,559
Speaker 1: he says our total to support to the Brazilian hero

1476
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:35,599
Speaker 1: who tried to create justice for all Argentinians and goes

1477
01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:37,680
Speaker 1: on to talk about this. This is with reference to

1478
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:41,360
Speaker 1: the assassination attempt that we saw what last week, Yes,

1479
01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:45,280
Speaker 1: so so so last week this this fascist tried to

1480
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:48,960
Speaker 1: assassinate the vice president of Argentina. And we're going to

1481
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:52,559
Speaker 1: get more into this in our upcoming week of content

1482
01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:57,840
Speaker 1: titled Assassination Week. Assassination Upcoming, We're gonna be a whole

1483
01:31:57,840 --> 01:32:02,040
Speaker 1: week of whole week of episodes about fascinations. Um. But

1484
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:06,360
Speaker 1: in brief, this this, this happened, and then the people

1485
01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:10,240
Speaker 1: at the Cultural Center made this livestream celebrating the attack

1486
01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:16,960
Speaker 1: and calling the perpetrator Argentina's Brazilian hero. Yes, it really

1487
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:20,599
Speaker 1: was just he also like tells people to rise up

1488
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:23,439
Speaker 1: and stuff like, there's some very clear course direction in there.

1489
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:28,360
Speaker 1: In the raid, they found a mortar shell and one

1490
01:32:28,560 --> 01:32:32,360
Speaker 1: eight four minument a mortar shell, a drone, and they

1491
01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:35,080
Speaker 1: they've confiscated a bunch of hard drive which I do

1492
01:32:35,200 --> 01:32:37,080
Speaker 1: not envy the person who has to go through his

1493
01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:41,160
Speaker 1: phones and hard drives. There. They're going to see some balls,

1494
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:45,599
Speaker 1: they're going to see some pain, but hopefully that person

1495
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:49,400
Speaker 1: can get some therapy. And this isn't the first like,

1496
01:32:49,439 --> 01:32:52,719
Speaker 1: this isn't the first time that the state has tried

1497
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:55,840
Speaker 1: to come after them. They actually there there were discussions

1498
01:32:55,840 --> 01:33:00,360
Speaker 1: about like denying the crimes committed under the day Tater

1499
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 1: ship and how he can be prosecuted for that, because

1500
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:06,280
Speaker 1: that was the thing that they were very clearly doing.

1501
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:09,400
Speaker 1: So it seemed like he'd kind of been in the

1502
01:33:09,439 --> 01:33:13,680
Speaker 1: crosshairs of progressive legislators in Argentina for a while, and

1503
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:16,639
Speaker 1: then he went and made this batchet crazy video where

1504
01:33:16,640 --> 01:33:19,559
Speaker 1: he makes calls to violence. He says the left can't

1505
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:23,400
Speaker 1: ask for non violence. He says the left doesn't respect democracy,

1506
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:26,640
Speaker 1: and he calls the vice president a rat and a

1507
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:29,280
Speaker 1: murderer and says that it's just a shame that she

1508
01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:32,480
Speaker 1: wasn't blown up and it's only because the weapon malfunctioned

1509
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:34,840
Speaker 1: that this hero didn't get to do justice for a

1510
01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:41,240
Speaker 1: largent times, I should have been the guy like I'm sorry. Yeah, look,

1511
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:45,080
Speaker 1: we're like, he's just he's just built different. Yeah, she's

1512
01:33:45,120 --> 01:33:48,000
Speaker 1: he's built different because he got sabotaged by all of

1513
01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 1: his esoteric Nazi or something, which we will get more

1514
01:33:51,600 --> 01:33:55,559
Speaker 1: into in the upcoming assassination week. Yep, we just got

1515
01:33:55,560 --> 01:33:59,800
Speaker 1: to record the theme music and then we'll be there.

1516
01:33:59,840 --> 01:34:03,440
Speaker 1: He cut together footage of all of the great assassination.

1517
01:34:04,680 --> 01:34:08,960
Speaker 1: This is gonna be half an hour constant assassination college. Yeah,

1518
01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:12,519
Speaker 1: these guys are extremely curse that there's more curse stuff

1519
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:16,519
Speaker 1: that they've done that like we probably shouldn't go into.

1520
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:19,360
Speaker 1: I didn't think because I think you could just understand

1521
01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:22,080
Speaker 1: this is a lonely in so guy who's been on

1522
01:34:22,120 --> 01:34:25,000
Speaker 1: the Internet too much become more and more radicalized and

1523
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:29,720
Speaker 1: like surrounded himself with people who agree. And it's been

1524
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:32,120
Speaker 1: pretty funny to watch people prank him for a while,

1525
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:34,720
Speaker 1: like scrolling down their Facebook page. It's very funny to

1526
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 1: see people consistently like he doesn't seem to be an

1527
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:44,120
Speaker 1: intellectual giant. But it's also worrying and obviously he's advocating

1528
01:34:44,200 --> 01:34:48,799
Speaker 1: for violence against people. Wouldn't emoginized. Whenever someone starts taking

1529
01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:51,960
Speaker 1: things that are online out into the physical world, like

1530
01:34:52,040 --> 01:34:57,080
Speaker 1: making basically a monument like a physical place, Um, it's

1531
01:34:57,080 --> 01:34:59,719
Speaker 1: always concerning. It's always it's always one of the big

1532
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:04,519
Speaker 1: big red flags. Yeah, and I think, like specifically, the

1533
01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:06,400
Speaker 1: fact that he had both a mortar shell and a

1534
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:11,640
Speaker 1: drone is incredibly alarming. You don't say, yeah, I just

1535
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:12,960
Speaker 1: want to say, I just want to put that all

1536
01:35:13,040 --> 01:35:16,800
Speaker 1: the record for a second. Yeah, if he'd posted a

1537
01:35:16,840 --> 01:35:18,080
Speaker 1: little bit less, you're going to have made it into

1538
01:35:18,080 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 1: assassination week. But here we are, and they cocked by

1539
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:26,280
Speaker 1: your own posted tail tail is all this time. Yeah,

1540
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:29,639
Speaker 1: if he'd stuck to tradition and not posted him, they did. Also,

1541
01:35:29,720 --> 01:35:32,360
Speaker 1: I just want to sell secondhand clothes at the center.

1542
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:34,320
Speaker 1: I don't know why. I don't know what they were

1543
01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:39,760
Speaker 1: going for there, but they did that. So coffee really Yeah,

1544
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:44,240
Speaker 1: well in Argentina and you want some secondhand clothes and coffee,

1545
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:47,320
Speaker 1: I can tell you where not to go. Don't go

1546
01:35:47,400 --> 01:35:50,080
Speaker 1: to this place because these odds are you're gonna get

1547
01:35:50,120 --> 01:35:52,640
Speaker 1: rated by police when you're there. Yeah. I didn't think

1548
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:55,760
Speaker 1: there's much of dis place left now. I think it

1549
01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:58,040
Speaker 1: looks like the door has not recovered from their entry,

1550
01:35:58,120 --> 01:36:00,120
Speaker 1: judging by the fact that they've taped bin bag for

1551
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:03,880
Speaker 1: it in the photos here. Yeah, hopefully someone can squat

1552
01:36:03,920 --> 01:36:05,760
Speaker 1: this place. Maybe the war pigs can get it and

1553
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:08,280
Speaker 1: just toast a collection of figurines there that would be based.

1554
01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:11,479
Speaker 1: That would be so sick. Yeah, they need money, just

1555
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:14,559
Speaker 1: let us know. We'll do a fundraiser. So I hope

1556
01:36:14,560 --> 01:36:18,519
Speaker 1: this is a good lesson in knowing when posting goes

1557
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:24,120
Speaker 1: too far. Yeah, try try to keep your cringe online

1558
01:36:24,120 --> 01:36:27,280
Speaker 1: if you're going to do it, because you don't want

1559
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:30,280
Speaker 1: to be this guy. No, you certainly do not want

1560
01:36:30,280 --> 01:36:33,640
Speaker 1: to be this guy complaining about track and Bolz and

1561
01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:37,800
Speaker 1: posting that results in the police raiding your car and

1562
01:36:37,920 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 1: house steamed hangout spot. Yeah just yeah, truly one of

1563
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 1: the weirdest pivots from online to the streets that I've

1564
01:36:45,880 --> 01:36:48,439
Speaker 1: ever seen. This dude probably should have been jail a

1565
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:51,759
Speaker 1: long time ago. They probably worth noting that, like gender

1566
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:55,599
Speaker 1: based violence is like the common denominator for people who

1567
01:36:55,640 --> 01:36:58,439
Speaker 1: do add terrible ship, and this is not not an

1568
01:36:58,439 --> 01:37:02,880
Speaker 1: example of that. Yeah. Who who could have thought that

1569
01:37:03,200 --> 01:37:07,200
Speaker 1: the raging and cell misogynist would also have bad politics? Yeah,

1570
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:11,519
Speaker 1: to keep doing Fammi Boushi ship, you have a full support. Indeed,

1571
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:14,559
Speaker 1: Well that isn't for us today. To tune in next

1572
01:37:14,600 --> 01:37:19,400
Speaker 1: week I think next week, right next week or maybe

1573
01:37:19,400 --> 01:37:23,639
Speaker 1: the week after for our upcoming week of episodes titled

1574
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:26,880
Speaker 1: Assassination Week. Yeah, it's gonna be great. Of course, not

1575
01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:44,599
Speaker 1: not endorsing any political violence, assassinations any kinds. AH nine

1576
01:37:44,640 --> 01:37:47,719
Speaker 1: eleven is in a couple of days. I'm Robert Evans.

1577
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:50,240
Speaker 1: This is it could have happened here a podcast about

1578
01:37:50,360 --> 01:37:53,600
Speaker 1: nine eleven. Um well, as as Garrison said in the

1579
01:37:53,640 --> 01:37:56,439
Speaker 1: intro that we're not using it's about things falling apart,

1580
01:37:56,760 --> 01:38:00,920
Speaker 1: and boy did that happen on two things that fell apart? Yeah?

1581
01:38:01,040 --> 01:38:05,960
Speaker 1: Um yeah. So this was originally going to be a

1582
01:38:06,040 --> 01:38:08,880
Speaker 1: slightly cruder episode than it wound up being. But I'm

1583
01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:12,400
Speaker 1: just gonna I'm just gonna delve into the script and uh,

1584
01:38:12,560 --> 01:38:16,240
Speaker 1: Chris Garrison, you guys just buckle in, because the reason

1585
01:38:16,479 --> 01:38:18,240
Speaker 1: I have you both as guests on this is that

1586
01:38:18,280 --> 01:38:21,599
Speaker 1: you are both too young to remember nine That's not true.

1587
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:25,519
Speaker 1: I remember, I remember, I remember. Were you like four?

1588
01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:29,799
Speaker 1: I hope so yeah, I was four. But I remember

1589
01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:33,360
Speaker 1: my mom like so she she was trying to explain

1590
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:37,799
Speaker 1: the Pentagon, right, and so she has like a coaster

1591
01:38:38,040 --> 01:38:40,599
Speaker 1: on the ground and she's making an airplane with her

1592
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 1: hand is just going into anyway. So, as I said,

1593
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:48,880
Speaker 1: neither of you properly remember nine eleven. I don't remember it.

1594
01:38:49,160 --> 01:38:51,800
Speaker 1: Love it. I I was at the age where every

1595
01:38:52,080 --> 01:38:54,479
Speaker 1: moment of it is burnt into my into my brain,

1596
01:38:54,600 --> 01:38:57,000
Speaker 1: as is the reaction so I wanted you both on

1597
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:01,360
Speaker 1: this because we're gonna talk about how nine eleven kind

1598
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:05,920
Speaker 1: of became a cult um and how to maybe how

1599
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:07,799
Speaker 1: to maybe deal with that, and then we'll be chatting

1600
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:11,200
Speaker 1: about Glenn Beck's nine twelve project, which is something I'm

1601
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:14,320
Speaker 1: sure neither of you are very familiar with. Now. In

1602
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:17,559
Speaker 1: its sixth season, the popular cartoons South Park ran an

1603
01:39:17,560 --> 01:39:20,000
Speaker 1: episode in which Jared Fogel, who was at that point

1604
01:39:20,080 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 1: just a subway spokesman and not a convicted child molester,

1605
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:25,720
Speaker 1: came to town and announced the start of a new

1606
01:39:25,760 --> 01:39:29,320
Speaker 1: program to give everyone AIDS. Now, he was talking about

1607
01:39:29,400 --> 01:39:32,360
Speaker 1: dietitians and personal trainers to help people lose weight, but

1608
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:35,520
Speaker 1: everybody heard AIDS the disease, which led to wacky hijinks.

1609
01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:39,200
Speaker 1: That's the episode. It ends when everyone realizes they'd misunderstood

1610
01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:41,720
Speaker 1: Fogel and they all laugh. Uh. This leads them to

1611
01:39:41,760 --> 01:39:44,880
Speaker 1: realize that AIDS is finally funny, because things that are

1612
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:48,360
Speaker 1: tragic become funny exactly twenty two point three years after

1613
01:39:48,439 --> 01:39:51,160
Speaker 1: they occur. That's the joke in the episode, and went

1614
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:53,960
Speaker 1: on to become a minor little internet joke that, like,

1615
01:39:54,439 --> 01:39:56,240
Speaker 1: you know, once you hit that twenty two year point,

1616
01:39:56,280 --> 01:39:59,000
Speaker 1: you can laugh about something tragic. We are now at

1617
01:39:59,040 --> 01:40:01,920
Speaker 1: like twenty one year and change since September eleventh, two

1618
01:40:01,920 --> 01:40:04,120
Speaker 1: thousand one, and I think if we're all honest, most

1619
01:40:04,200 --> 01:40:05,800
Speaker 1: of us can admit that we've laughed at a lot

1620
01:40:05,840 --> 01:40:07,960
Speaker 1: of nine eleven jokes. We're recording this the day the

1621
01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:10,840
Speaker 1: Queen died, and people are like photo shopping her face

1622
01:40:10,920 --> 01:40:13,840
Speaker 1: to be the Twin Towers, and it's so it's quite

1623
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:16,880
Speaker 1: a time on the old Internet. Now. I think the first,

1624
01:40:17,120 --> 01:40:18,920
Speaker 1: I think the hardest, at least, that I ever laughed

1625
01:40:18,920 --> 01:40:20,439
Speaker 1: at a nine eleven joke. I'm sure it's not the

1626
01:40:20,479 --> 01:40:22,960
Speaker 1: first time was this picture of Trump Tower that was

1627
01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:26,080
Speaker 1: posted to Twitter like right after he got inaugurated, with

1628
01:40:26,120 --> 01:40:29,679
Speaker 1: the text George Bush do you thing? Um, it's still

1629
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:33,439
Speaker 1: an excellent nine eleven joke. Now, the first person with

1630
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:35,880
Speaker 1: any kind of platform to making a nine eleven joke

1631
01:40:36,080 --> 01:40:40,040
Speaker 1: was the recently deceased comedian Gilbert Gottfried. On September twenty nine,

1632
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:42,080
Speaker 1: two thousand one, he took part in a roast of

1633
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:44,840
Speaker 1: Hugh Hefner at the New York Friars Club, And I'm

1634
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:47,600
Speaker 1: gonna play you the audio of that right now. I

1635
01:40:47,720 --> 01:40:50,639
Speaker 1: have to catch up flight to California. I can't get

1636
01:40:50,680 --> 01:40:53,000
Speaker 1: a direct flight. They said they had to stop at

1637
01:40:53,000 --> 01:41:01,000
Speaker 1: the Empire State Building Park there. Extremely tamed joke. Honestly

1638
01:41:01,280 --> 01:41:05,559
Speaker 1: not a great joke. UM, but it went onto it

1639
01:41:05,640 --> 01:41:08,240
Speaker 1: was It's probably like maybe the most famous and like

1640
01:41:08,320 --> 01:41:12,400
Speaker 1: kind of stand up history like bombs. Um. God Freed

1641
01:41:12,479 --> 01:41:15,120
Speaker 1: and said himself said that he lost the audience more

1642
01:41:15,120 --> 01:41:18,000
Speaker 1: than anyone else ever has. UM. I think it caused

1643
01:41:18,080 --> 01:41:21,559
Speaker 1: some career problems for him. Um. He later said, like

1644
01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:24,800
Speaker 1: a few weeks after. This was days after. So this

1645
01:41:24,880 --> 01:41:27,400
Speaker 1: is at the Friar's Club roast of Hugh Hefner on

1646
01:41:27,439 --> 01:41:33,599
Speaker 1: September twenty nine. Is this work too soon? It's from UM? Well, yeah,

1647
01:41:33,800 --> 01:41:35,200
Speaker 1: this I mean, I don't I don't know that it

1648
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:39,040
Speaker 1: originated there, but this was the response to him. Um,

1649
01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:41,120
Speaker 1: and I think it's the first time I ever recall

1650
01:41:41,240 --> 01:41:44,479
Speaker 1: hearing someone say that. Godfried said that like the reason

1651
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:46,439
Speaker 1: he decided to tell a joke this close to nine

1652
01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:48,920
Speaker 1: eleven was that he was personally offended by the fact

1653
01:41:48,920 --> 01:41:53,120
Speaker 1: that anything could be too soon to make a joke about. UM.

1654
01:41:53,240 --> 01:41:55,360
Speaker 1: One of these is interesting about this. A little side

1655
01:41:55,360 --> 01:41:57,760
Speaker 1: thing is that like after bombing and getting shouted at

1656
01:41:57,760 --> 01:42:00,599
Speaker 1: by the audience. Godfried, like decide did to get them

1657
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:03,960
Speaker 1: back by telling a particularly long and foul version of

1658
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:09,800
Speaker 1: the Aristocrats, which is a meta joke about jokes primarily anyway. Um,

1659
01:42:09,840 --> 01:42:12,080
Speaker 1: it's basically just being as foul mouthed as you can

1660
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:15,479
Speaker 1: possibly be to an audience. Um. And that that audio

1661
01:42:15,560 --> 01:42:19,040
Speaker 1: has been lost to time apparently, But boy, you can

1662
01:42:19,040 --> 01:42:21,760
Speaker 1: watch a fun documentary about the Aristocrats if you want

1663
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:24,400
Speaker 1: to learn more about that now. I think the first

1664
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:27,360
Speaker 1: good actual comedy bit about nine eleven came out a

1665
01:42:27,400 --> 01:42:29,679
Speaker 1: little bit after this. This was about two weeks after

1666
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:32,000
Speaker 1: the day and a couple of months later, at like

1667
01:42:32,040 --> 01:42:35,840
Speaker 1: the three month point, South Park season five aired, uh,

1668
01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:38,960
Speaker 1: and they ran an episode about nine eleven. Um. It

1669
01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:41,880
Speaker 1: has been criticized, rightly so because there's some kind of

1670
01:42:42,000 --> 01:42:47,320
Speaker 1: racist bits of humor in there. Surprising, that's not surprising. Um.

1671
01:42:47,400 --> 01:42:50,480
Speaker 1: That said, it's also kind of a valuable snapshot of history.

1672
01:42:50,520 --> 01:42:53,880
Speaker 1: For one thing, The huge part of the episode is

1673
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:56,800
Speaker 1: just kind of like the Afghan child counterparts to the

1674
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:59,360
Speaker 1: main characters in the show, walking around their town as

1675
01:42:59,400 --> 01:43:02,599
Speaker 1: everyone is ordered by US air strikes. UM. So it's

1676
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:05,320
Speaker 1: it is not like the it stands kind of an

1677
01:43:05,320 --> 01:43:09,040
Speaker 1: opposition to sort of the kind of like bootlicking responses

1678
01:43:09,080 --> 01:43:12,000
Speaker 1: you got for For some context, the show The West Wing,

1679
01:43:12,479 --> 01:43:14,840
Speaker 1: which is the favorite show of everybody who runs anything

1680
01:43:14,840 --> 01:43:18,400
Speaker 1: in politics right now, ran an emergency nine eleven episode

1681
01:43:18,479 --> 01:43:20,880
Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks after the attack, which was

1682
01:43:20,920 --> 01:43:23,360
Speaker 1: the kind of turnaround you didn't do in TV at

1683
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:25,559
Speaker 1: that point in time. So they put in a ton

1684
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:28,160
Speaker 1: of effort to have the special nine eleven episode of

1685
01:43:28,200 --> 01:43:31,479
Speaker 1: The West Wing. Um that number one in the alternate

1686
01:43:31,479 --> 01:43:34,000
Speaker 1: West Wing universe, there's no nine eleven. There's like some

1687
01:43:34,160 --> 01:43:37,360
Speaker 1: vague like there's basically basically the episode focus on like

1688
01:43:37,360 --> 01:43:39,120
Speaker 1: a bunch of kids on a tour getting stuck in

1689
01:43:39,120 --> 01:43:41,639
Speaker 1: the White House because it locks down because some vague

1690
01:43:41,720 --> 01:43:44,840
Speaker 1: terrorist attack thing happens in a fake country they made up.

1691
01:43:45,040 --> 01:43:47,200
Speaker 1: So when the West Wing needed to talk about Muslims,

1692
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:50,720
Speaker 1: um and kind of like the breakout piece of this, well,

1693
01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:53,759
Speaker 1: there's two breakouts. One of them is a very racist

1694
01:43:53,840 --> 01:43:56,839
Speaker 1: retelling of the story of Isaac and Ishmael that explains

1695
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:00,200
Speaker 1: like why Muslims are always so angry all the time, um.

1696
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:02,599
Speaker 1: And then the White House Press Lady c J. Craig

1697
01:44:02,640 --> 01:44:06,720
Speaker 1: goes on a rant about how awesome the intelligence apparatus

1698
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:09,960
Speaker 1: is and how like what good people uh CIA agents are,

1699
01:44:10,040 --> 01:44:13,280
Speaker 1: and how the best thing to do for politics sometimes

1700
01:44:13,360 --> 01:44:16,280
Speaker 1: is to have a guy dressed as a waiter murder

1701
01:44:16,360 --> 01:44:19,360
Speaker 1: somebody with a silence pistol like it was out of

1702
01:44:19,400 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 1: its mind, unhinged. That's the fucking like. So the fact

1703
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:24,720
Speaker 1: that South Park does an episode that's like, yeah, we're

1704
01:44:24,760 --> 01:44:26,920
Speaker 1: gonna murder a bunch of people in Afghanistan for no

1705
01:44:27,040 --> 01:44:30,040
Speaker 1: reason is like, not a not a bad response, not

1706
01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:33,160
Speaker 1: a bad thing to recognize about that day. Um, the

1707
01:44:33,200 --> 01:44:36,720
Speaker 1: other things that are like pretty good or pretty I

1708
01:44:36,760 --> 01:44:40,360
Speaker 1: think meaningful sort of bits in that episode. It opens

1709
01:44:40,720 --> 01:44:42,639
Speaker 1: with all of the kids at the bus stop wearing

1710
01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:45,320
Speaker 1: gas masks as they stand in line for the bus.

1711
01:44:45,720 --> 01:44:48,519
Speaker 1: There's a piece in that episode that kind of sticks

1712
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:51,680
Speaker 1: with me today still, um that I'm gonna play for

1713
01:44:51,720 --> 01:44:57,320
Speaker 1: you guys. I don't know, I always found that bit fun.

1714
01:44:57,479 --> 01:45:00,080
Speaker 1: So when the school bus arrives, there's a cop on

1715
01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:02,840
Speaker 1: its searching bags and confiscating items that might be used

1716
01:45:02,840 --> 01:45:05,920
Speaker 1: as weapons. The school classroom doors are reinforced with a

1717
01:45:05,960 --> 01:45:09,559
Speaker 1: massive military grade lock, which resonated more in a time

1718
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:12,960
Speaker 1: when like school shootings weren't a constant thing. Um, And

1719
01:45:13,000 --> 01:45:14,840
Speaker 1: it it kind of hit me because, you know, when

1720
01:45:14,840 --> 01:45:16,920
Speaker 1: this episode came out and I watched it when it

1721
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:19,479
Speaker 1: came out, I was at middle school, Clark Middle School

1722
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:23,400
Speaker 1: in Plano, Texas, and on nine eleven and twelve, the

1723
01:45:23,439 --> 01:45:27,160
Speaker 1: attacks were like the only topic of discussion that anyone had.

1724
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:28,920
Speaker 1: And I have this vivid memory of a couple of

1725
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:32,040
Speaker 1: girls in my US history class weeping because they were

1726
01:45:32,080 --> 01:45:35,320
Speaker 1: scared that al Qaeda was coming for our schools next. Um,

1727
01:45:35,360 --> 01:45:38,240
Speaker 1: Like this was a very real worry for kids that

1728
01:45:38,320 --> 01:45:42,479
Speaker 1: I grew up with, what like Midland, Texas or something. No,

1729
01:45:42,720 --> 01:45:45,280
Speaker 1: it was, indeed, it's a big school. But like I'm

1730
01:45:45,400 --> 01:45:48,479
Speaker 1: certain that fucking Osama bin Laden had never heard the

1731
01:45:48,600 --> 01:45:52,719
Speaker 1: name plane o Texas, let alone the Joatha thing with

1732
01:45:52,880 --> 01:45:57,800
Speaker 1: like anytime a plane was like going down, people will

1733
01:45:57,880 --> 01:46:01,320
Speaker 1: point at it and be like, oh my god, yeah yeah,

1734
01:46:02,560 --> 01:46:04,960
Speaker 1: um No, that was definitely a meme. And there was,

1735
01:46:05,320 --> 01:46:08,320
Speaker 1: you know, one of the most famous ones was this

1736
01:46:08,320 --> 01:46:11,559
Speaker 1: this video called Triumph Dot a v I that started

1737
01:46:11,560 --> 01:46:14,040
Speaker 1: to spread on the Something Awful forums That was just

1738
01:46:14,120 --> 01:46:19,759
Speaker 1: footage of the September eleventh attacks set to yakety sacks um.

1739
01:46:19,800 --> 01:46:23,559
Speaker 1: And again, these were all kind of the comedy that

1740
01:46:23,560 --> 01:46:26,000
Speaker 1: that you know, that South Park put out here and

1741
01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:29,280
Speaker 1: that you saw, and stuff like the Triumph video were

1742
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:34,040
Speaker 1: reactions to how fucking seriously everybody else took nine eleven right.

1743
01:46:34,280 --> 01:46:35,600
Speaker 1: Like I have to, I have to point out that

1744
01:46:35,680 --> 01:46:38,439
Speaker 1: like watching an episode like this or watching something like

1745
01:46:38,479 --> 01:46:42,360
Speaker 1: Trump felt like legitimately transgressive in the days and weeks

1746
01:46:42,400 --> 01:46:45,800
Speaker 1: after nine eleven, because it was kind of a as

1747
01:46:45,800 --> 01:46:47,640
Speaker 1: we'll talk about, had turned into kind of like a

1748
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:51,000
Speaker 1: secular cult um. And I think people who were just

1749
01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:53,719
Speaker 1: a few years old then or born after nine eleven

1750
01:46:54,120 --> 01:46:56,519
Speaker 1: missed this part of nine eleven. Um. I think you

1751
01:46:56,600 --> 01:46:59,320
Speaker 1: inherited the wars and the intrusions on civil liberties and

1752
01:46:59,360 --> 01:47:02,040
Speaker 1: the creeping fast is um, but not the derangement by

1753
01:47:02,120 --> 01:47:05,200
Speaker 1: terror that had preceded it, Like everybody's permanently deranged from

1754
01:47:05,240 --> 01:47:09,000
Speaker 1: nine eleven, But you didn't really get to know people

1755
01:47:09,120 --> 01:47:11,920
Speaker 1: before that kind of happened and drove a lot of

1756
01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:15,000
Speaker 1: them mad. As a kid, it was like a strange

1757
01:47:15,120 --> 01:47:18,280
Speaker 1: and exciting and scary moment. But I think my parents

1758
01:47:18,320 --> 01:47:19,760
Speaker 1: and I think the people who were kind of in

1759
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:23,360
Speaker 1: their age range um completely lost their minds, and oddly

1760
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:25,799
Speaker 1: that that South Park episode has kind of the best

1761
01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:29,599
Speaker 1: depiction of that too. There's a scene in which stand

1762
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:31,160
Speaker 1: who is one of the main characters they're all like

1763
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:34,080
Speaker 1: middle school kids, walks into his house and sees his

1764
01:47:34,200 --> 01:47:38,559
Speaker 1: mom like lying on the couch staring blankly ahead UM

1765
01:47:38,640 --> 01:47:41,920
Speaker 1: and just like weeping. She's surrounded by tissues. She's been

1766
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:45,360
Speaker 1: crying for days, UM and as her husband says, she's

1767
01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:48,439
Speaker 1: just been watching CNN for like the last eight weeks straight.

1768
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:50,519
Speaker 1: And the the image of her just kind of like

1769
01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:52,920
Speaker 1: lying on the couch staring at the TV is I

1770
01:47:53,200 --> 01:47:55,599
Speaker 1: can remember every adult that I knew as a kid

1771
01:47:55,720 --> 01:47:59,200
Speaker 1: doing that, and it it really did go on for days,

1772
01:47:59,240 --> 01:48:01,439
Speaker 1: like people moved moved around as if they were like

1773
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:03,920
Speaker 1: in kind of a shocked stupor. I'm sure there's places

1774
01:48:03,920 --> 01:48:07,960
Speaker 1: where this wasn't the case, UM, But for my family,

1775
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:10,559
Speaker 1: who were very very conservative people, and I think for

1776
01:48:10,600 --> 01:48:13,760
Speaker 1: people particularly who lived closer to the attacks, like it

1777
01:48:13,800 --> 01:48:17,439
Speaker 1: was just this period of um like post traumatic stress

1778
01:48:17,479 --> 01:48:20,000
Speaker 1: for the entire country. I think a good amount of

1779
01:48:20,040 --> 01:48:22,360
Speaker 1: research backs up the fact that this it had this

1780
01:48:22,479 --> 01:48:24,639
Speaker 1: kind of and I think it is hard to understand

1781
01:48:24,640 --> 01:48:26,840
Speaker 1: if you weren't there impact on people. I found a

1782
01:48:26,880 --> 01:48:30,000
Speaker 1: Pew Research study that I'm gonna quote from now. Our

1783
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,280
Speaker 1: first survey following the attacks went into the field just

1784
01:48:32,360 --> 01:48:35,760
Speaker 1: days after nine eleven. From September seventeen, two thousand one,

1785
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:38,799
Speaker 1: A sizeable majority of adults said they felt depressed. Nearly

1786
01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:41,599
Speaker 1: half said they had difficulty concentrating, and a third said

1787
01:48:41,640 --> 01:48:44,080
Speaker 1: they had trouble sleeping. It was an era in which

1788
01:48:44,080 --> 01:48:47,479
Speaker 1: television was still the public's dominant news source. Said they

1789
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:49,840
Speaker 1: got most of their news about the attacks from television,

1790
01:48:50,040 --> 01:48:52,519
Speaker 1: compared with just five percent who got their news online,

1791
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:54,960
Speaker 1: and the televised images of death and destruction had a

1792
01:48:54,960 --> 01:48:57,960
Speaker 1: powerful impact. Around nine and ten Americans agreed with the

1793
01:48:58,000 --> 01:49:00,600
Speaker 1: statement I feel sad when watching t the coverage of

1794
01:49:00,600 --> 01:49:05,320
Speaker 1: the terrorist attacks. A sizable majority found it frightening to watch,

1795
01:49:05,479 --> 01:49:08,720
Speaker 1: but most did so anyway. Fear was widespread, not just

1796
01:49:08,800 --> 01:49:11,000
Speaker 1: in the days immediately after the attacks, but throughout the

1797
01:49:11,040 --> 01:49:14,040
Speaker 1: fall of two thousand one. Most Americans said they were

1798
01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:18,000
Speaker 1: very percent or somewhat forty five percent worried about another attack.

1799
01:49:18,280 --> 01:49:20,439
Speaker 1: When asked a year later to describe how their lives

1800
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:22,800
Speaker 1: changed in a major way, about half the adults said

1801
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:25,519
Speaker 1: they felt more afraid, more careful, and more distrustful or

1802
01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:28,360
Speaker 1: more vulnerable as a result of the attacks. And I

1803
01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:31,639
Speaker 1: think you can't separate this because the main people were

1804
01:49:31,640 --> 01:49:34,040
Speaker 1: talking about here when we're talking about the response to this,

1805
01:49:34,479 --> 01:49:36,800
Speaker 1: when we're talking about the people who got to make decisions,

1806
01:49:36,840 --> 01:49:39,320
Speaker 1: it's boomers, right, which is not all that different from

1807
01:49:39,320 --> 01:49:40,880
Speaker 1: how it is today, but even it was even more

1808
01:49:40,920 --> 01:49:44,240
Speaker 1: so boomers then. And you know, my parents and the

1809
01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:46,719
Speaker 1: people of their generation are all children of the Cold War.

1810
01:49:47,160 --> 01:49:50,320
Speaker 1: They both grew up, my parents on different military bases,

1811
01:49:50,520 --> 01:49:53,679
Speaker 1: um and I can remember, you know, my dad told

1812
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:55,760
Speaker 1: me stories about doing like duck and coverage rills as

1813
01:49:55,760 --> 01:49:57,840
Speaker 1: a kid, like literally hiding under a desk to get

1814
01:49:57,840 --> 01:50:02,040
Speaker 1: ready for an atomic bomb. His family like went out

1815
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:04,840
Speaker 1: into the countryside during the Cuban missile crisis to hide

1816
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:06,560
Speaker 1: because they were afraid all the cities we're going to

1817
01:50:06,600 --> 01:50:10,240
Speaker 1: get nuked. And this is not These are not uncommon experiences.

1818
01:50:10,240 --> 01:50:12,719
Speaker 1: So you have to think, like all of the all

1819
01:50:12,760 --> 01:50:16,559
Speaker 1: of the adults were either very close to this period

1820
01:50:16,640 --> 01:50:20,080
Speaker 1: or had spent most of their formative years like constantly

1821
01:50:20,160 --> 01:50:23,360
Speaker 1: scared of being murdered by a nuclear weapon. Um, there

1822
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:26,160
Speaker 1: have been clinical like studies and stuff that have shown

1823
01:50:26,200 --> 01:50:28,960
Speaker 1: that that fear of nuclear annihilation is a major factor

1824
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 1: and anxiety like it's not ever been properly I think

1825
01:50:32,479 --> 01:50:36,479
Speaker 1: explained how much that fucked up that generation. But what

1826
01:50:36,560 --> 01:50:38,800
Speaker 1: you had is all these people who had spent the

1827
01:50:38,800 --> 01:50:41,479
Speaker 1: first couple of decades of their lives living with the

1828
01:50:41,520 --> 01:50:45,080
Speaker 1: sort of damocles over their heads. And then the war ends, right,

1829
01:50:45,240 --> 01:50:48,439
Speaker 1: the Cold War ends, the USSR falls apart, and suddenly

1830
01:50:48,640 --> 01:50:51,760
Speaker 1: people aren't talking about nuclear warfare for the first time

1831
01:50:51,800 --> 01:50:55,599
Speaker 1: in anybody's memory. Um, And I think for most of

1832
01:50:55,600 --> 01:50:59,360
Speaker 1: that generation they felt safe for the first time. There

1833
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:02,760
Speaker 1: was this kind of celebration that was pretty bipartisan, that

1834
01:51:02,840 --> 01:51:06,000
Speaker 1: capitalism and democracy had triumphed, and that like this kind

1835
01:51:06,000 --> 01:51:09,080
Speaker 1: of horror that had stalked through their childhood had been defeated.

1836
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:12,360
Speaker 1: When people like Francis fuki Yama talked about the end

1837
01:51:12,360 --> 01:51:15,560
Speaker 1: of history, what Fukiyama meant was that liberal democracy was

1838
01:51:15,640 --> 01:51:17,760
Speaker 1: kind of, in his eyes, the end of the evolutionary

1839
01:51:17,840 --> 01:51:20,680
Speaker 1: road for states, which is a flawed idea, But the

1840
01:51:20,720 --> 01:51:24,320
Speaker 1: interpretation that I think people like my parents had was

1841
01:51:24,360 --> 01:51:27,120
Speaker 1: that we didn't need to worry anymore. Right, like that

1842
01:51:27,120 --> 01:51:28,760
Speaker 1: that's the end of history, right, our way of life

1843
01:51:28,800 --> 01:51:31,480
Speaker 1: had one and we like we we didn't need to worry.

1844
01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:34,960
Speaker 1: And in nine eleven happens and suddenly this decade or

1845
01:51:35,000 --> 01:51:37,960
Speaker 1: so of relief from that all ends in a minute,

1846
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:39,960
Speaker 1: and all of that fear that they lived with their

1847
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:43,640
Speaker 1: whole lives came roaring back with abandoned. Nine eleven was

1848
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:46,519
Speaker 1: like the emotional equivalent of splitting an atom. And and

1849
01:51:46,560 --> 01:51:49,360
Speaker 1: the Internet that was released by that is going to

1850
01:51:49,400 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 1: be used for something, right. I want to kind of

1851
01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:53,960
Speaker 1: touch on that a little bit, because I mean, I

1852
01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:56,800
Speaker 1: obviously don't remember the nineties because I wasn't there, and

1853
01:51:56,840 --> 01:51:59,160
Speaker 1: it is such a fascinating idea to me, like this

1854
01:51:59,320 --> 01:52:02,920
Speaker 1: time where neoliberalism kind of reached their paradise, like like

1855
01:52:03,000 --> 01:52:05,240
Speaker 1: we didn't we could we we we we did the thing,

1856
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:09,400
Speaker 1: We found the spot and how that you know, talk

1857
01:52:09,439 --> 01:52:10,920
Speaker 1: about like the edge o chaos theory, how it was

1858
01:52:10,920 --> 01:52:13,080
Speaker 1: built up to the super high point and then all

1859
01:52:13,080 --> 01:52:15,920
Speaker 1: because because it got so high and then immediately crumbled,

1860
01:52:16,360 --> 01:52:19,400
Speaker 1: um and shot down and there's this thing that um.

1861
01:52:19,960 --> 01:52:23,400
Speaker 1: One of my favorite writers, Granat Morrison, talks about how

1862
01:52:24,040 --> 01:52:27,840
Speaker 1: nine eleven kind of became this moment where the world

1863
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:31,120
Speaker 1: of imagination and the world of like the lowest material

1864
01:52:31,640 --> 01:52:36,599
Speaker 1: visceral reality crashed into each other. Um, and he says

1865
01:52:36,680 --> 01:52:40,000
Speaker 1: a quote. The collapse expressed itself in the material world

1866
01:52:40,160 --> 01:52:42,200
Speaker 1: when the twin towers of the World Trade Center were

1867
01:52:42,240 --> 01:52:46,720
Speaker 1: reduced to dust by determined extremists. When cement occurred, reality

1868
01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:50,759
Speaker 1: and fiction began their slow collapse into one another. After

1869
01:52:50,760 --> 01:52:54,280
Speaker 1: the fall of the towers, quote unquote, reality became more fictional,

1870
01:52:54,400 --> 01:52:59,479
Speaker 1: and quote unquote fiction became more realistic, I think, plausible, realistic,

1871
01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:03,320
Speaker 1: superhero of movies like The Dark Knight films, fake news,

1872
01:53:03,520 --> 01:53:09,040
Speaker 1: deep fakes, a r VR and the rise of magical thinking. Um.

1873
01:53:09,120 --> 01:53:11,120
Speaker 1: And I would extra plate that out to like stuff

1874
01:53:11,160 --> 01:53:13,519
Speaker 1: like you know Q and on UM and you know

1875
01:53:13,600 --> 01:53:17,719
Speaker 1: the how just these images that we thought were only

1876
01:53:18,439 --> 01:53:24,080
Speaker 1: viewable in film and television um became descended down onto

1877
01:53:24,160 --> 01:53:29,240
Speaker 1: the onto the dirtiest, most visceral material plane. UM. And

1878
01:53:29,280 --> 01:53:31,760
Speaker 1: then things that were fake like this idea like the

1879
01:53:31,760 --> 01:53:34,439
Speaker 1: Perfect nineties, It's gonna be this is gonna continue continue

1880
01:53:34,439 --> 01:53:38,439
Speaker 1: like Diever that fiction. Uh, it felt almost more real,

1881
01:53:38,479 --> 01:53:40,200
Speaker 1: like it like that that that should have been what's

1882
01:53:40,240 --> 01:53:43,360
Speaker 1: real and it's not me more. Yeah, it feels like

1883
01:53:43,400 --> 01:53:45,360
Speaker 1: there's an alternate and I think that's part of why

1884
01:53:45,880 --> 01:53:48,639
Speaker 1: liberals are still so goddamn in love with the West wing.

1885
01:53:48,720 --> 01:53:51,000
Speaker 1: And by the way I talked about liberals, my parents,

1886
01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:54,000
Speaker 1: who loved Ronald Reagan more than life itself, watched every

1887
01:53:54,040 --> 01:53:56,200
Speaker 1: episode of that show. They thought it was wonderful. And

1888
01:53:56,240 --> 01:53:59,720
Speaker 1: the Republicans are always portrayed very sympathetically on the West wing. Right,

1889
01:53:59,720 --> 01:54:03,679
Speaker 1: it's very much this noble opposition sort of idea um

1890
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:08,680
Speaker 1: and uh, the the that I think there's something in

1891
01:54:08,720 --> 01:54:11,960
Speaker 1: that that there's list almost since that we've been locked

1892
01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:15,559
Speaker 1: out of the right reality. And that's that's what you know,

1893
01:54:15,600 --> 01:54:18,000
Speaker 1: That's what liberals are constantly harkening back to with with

1894
01:54:18,080 --> 01:54:21,040
Speaker 1: nine eleven. But it's also or with with stuff like

1895
01:54:21,080 --> 01:54:25,000
Speaker 1: the West Wing. But it's also like what conservatives. I

1896
01:54:25,040 --> 01:54:27,000
Speaker 1: think for a while they were looking for that. I

1897
01:54:27,040 --> 01:54:31,920
Speaker 1: think that's what George W. Bush promised and failed to deliver. Um.

1898
01:54:31,960 --> 01:54:34,600
Speaker 1: It's what they were hoping to get with Romney and

1899
01:54:34,640 --> 01:54:37,200
Speaker 1: when that didn't happen. I think part of what's going

1900
01:54:37,280 --> 01:54:39,400
Speaker 1: on with Trump is this desire, part of the desire

1901
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:42,440
Speaker 1: to burn it all down is the inability to get

1902
01:54:42,440 --> 01:54:46,720
Speaker 1: back to this imagined if you're talking about the collapse

1903
01:54:46,880 --> 01:54:49,480
Speaker 1: of reality and fiction going into each other, that's what

1904
01:54:49,560 --> 01:54:53,880
Speaker 1: Donald Trump represents. He is this so fictional person that

1905
01:54:54,120 --> 01:54:56,600
Speaker 1: in order to meet this new world of reality and

1906
01:54:56,600 --> 01:54:59,520
Speaker 1: fiction the same thing, you need somebody that under that,

1907
01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:02,640
Speaker 1: that rep sense that. Um. So they turned to him

1908
01:55:02,720 --> 01:55:06,080
Speaker 1: because he was meeting the way they saw the world

1909
01:55:06,160 --> 01:55:08,720
Speaker 1: was going, that the reality infection are going into each other.

1910
01:55:08,920 --> 01:55:13,000
Speaker 1: So you're going to get the reality television president who

1911
01:55:13,040 --> 01:55:16,320
Speaker 1: who who? Who kind of embodies that essence on a

1912
01:55:16,480 --> 01:55:19,880
Speaker 1: very very visceral level. And I think that's part of

1913
01:55:19,920 --> 01:55:22,600
Speaker 1: why when you have nine eleven happen, you have all

1914
01:55:22,600 --> 01:55:27,400
Speaker 1: of this energy released. Both parties kind of come together

1915
01:55:27,640 --> 01:55:31,080
Speaker 1: in this idea that the United States should strike back

1916
01:55:31,560 --> 01:55:33,840
Speaker 1: and that we were at war. It's rightly pointed out

1917
01:55:33,840 --> 01:55:37,120
Speaker 1: by people that particularly protests against the Iraq war were massive,

1918
01:55:37,400 --> 01:55:41,320
Speaker 1: and they were, they were historically large. But President Bush

1919
01:55:41,400 --> 01:55:44,520
Speaker 1: was also the most popular president of our lifetime briefly,

1920
01:55:44,560 --> 01:55:47,240
Speaker 1: and it's because people were in line behind this idea

1921
01:55:47,320 --> 01:55:49,760
Speaker 1: that we need to hit someone well. And and I

1922
01:55:49,760 --> 01:55:52,800
Speaker 1: think something that's important about this that's completely forgotten is

1923
01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:56,440
Speaker 1: that the invasion of Afghanistan. There was like no protests.

1924
01:55:56,880 --> 01:55:59,560
Speaker 1: There were there were a few, but like the left imploded,

1925
01:56:00,120 --> 01:56:02,600
Speaker 1: like here's I'm going to read a quote from Doug Henwood.

1926
01:56:03,440 --> 01:56:06,200
Speaker 1: This is an attack on us. There is a near

1927
01:56:06,240 --> 01:56:10,560
Speaker 1: certainty that something will be done soon. Clearly considerable use

1928
01:56:10,600 --> 01:56:12,720
Speaker 1: of force will have to be used to capture these

1929
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:18,680
Speaker 1: motherfucker's um like Adolph read He's like talking about how

1930
01:56:18,800 --> 01:56:21,440
Speaker 1: like there's gonna have to be military reaction. Like a

1931
01:56:21,480 --> 01:56:23,400
Speaker 1: bunch of the people from like who like the the

1932
01:56:23,440 --> 01:56:27,800
Speaker 1: old school, like anti Vietnam War protesters like from STS

1933
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:30,360
Speaker 1: are like, well, we don't oppose all wars, we just

1934
01:56:30,400 --> 01:56:33,040
Speaker 1: opposed bad wars. So like here we should go in vadive.

1935
01:56:33,040 --> 01:56:37,120
Speaker 1: Guess like everyone lost their minds. Well, and I want

1936
01:56:37,160 --> 01:56:39,040
Speaker 1: to what I really the core of when I talk

1937
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:42,000
Speaker 1: about today is why that happened. Because I think there's

1938
01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:45,600
Speaker 1: on particularly kind of some of the more superficial left

1939
01:56:45,600 --> 01:56:48,840
Speaker 1: wing analysis of this, this idea that like George Bush

1940
01:56:49,160 --> 01:56:52,400
Speaker 1: did what he did in response because he's like this

1941
01:56:52,480 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 1: Christian holy warrior um. And there's a couple of reasons

1942
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:57,880
Speaker 1: people do this, including the fact that he once referred

1943
01:56:57,920 --> 01:57:00,200
Speaker 1: to the invasion of Iraq as a crusade, but as

1944
01:57:00,240 --> 01:57:03,640
Speaker 1: a general rule, what Bush did was not because of

1945
01:57:03,680 --> 01:57:06,040
Speaker 1: his Christianity and had nothing to do with any kind

1946
01:57:06,040 --> 01:57:10,280
Speaker 1: of conflict with his Lam. In particular. What it was

1947
01:57:10,280 --> 01:57:14,240
Speaker 1: was the reaction of a group of a kind of fundamentalists,

1948
01:57:14,280 --> 01:57:18,320
Speaker 1: fundamentalists of belief in the American state, reacting to an

1949
01:57:18,360 --> 01:57:22,480
Speaker 1: attack on the sanctity of that kind of idea um.

1950
01:57:22,520 --> 01:57:25,280
Speaker 1: And this is this is you know why all these

1951
01:57:25,320 --> 01:57:27,200
Speaker 1: liberals were on board at least with you know, the

1952
01:57:27,240 --> 01:57:31,240
Speaker 1: strike on Afghanistan or attacking Afghanistan. Christopher Hitchens. Probably no

1953
01:57:31,280 --> 01:57:33,600
Speaker 1: one embodies like what happened to a lot of the

1954
01:57:33,680 --> 01:57:37,600
Speaker 1: left better than Hitchens. Hitchens was a well known liberal journalist.

1955
01:57:37,600 --> 01:57:41,080
Speaker 1: He wrote an excoriating book about Henry Kissinger. Right, he's

1956
01:57:41,080 --> 01:57:43,640
Speaker 1: one of these people who was criticizing the Empire, who

1957
01:57:43,680 --> 01:57:47,080
Speaker 1: was attacking it for its excesses. For builds his career

1958
01:57:47,200 --> 01:57:49,800
Speaker 1: on that, and the nine eleven happens. And the first

1959
01:57:49,880 --> 01:57:51,760
Speaker 1: big thing he does is he puts out a massive

1960
01:57:51,800 --> 01:57:55,880
Speaker 1: column titled Bush's Secularist Triumph, in which he argues that

1961
01:57:55,920 --> 01:57:58,920
Speaker 1: the war on terror is not a crusade but a

1962
01:57:58,960 --> 01:58:01,880
Speaker 1: battle to keep rely Gin in public power. Separate, and

1963
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:03,800
Speaker 1: I want to quote now from a study published in

1964
01:58:03,840 --> 01:58:07,480
Speaker 1: the Journal of Political Theology by William Kavanaugh of DePaul University.

1965
01:58:07,880 --> 01:58:11,960
Speaker 1: It's kindled the war on terror secular or sacred. There

1966
01:58:11,960 --> 01:58:13,840
Speaker 1: may be some Christians who think that we are fighting

1967
01:58:13,880 --> 01:58:15,680
Speaker 1: for Jesus, but the battle is being one in the

1968
01:58:15,760 --> 01:58:19,400
Speaker 1: name of secularism. George Bush may subjectively be a Christian,

1969
01:58:19,440 --> 01:58:22,120
Speaker 1: but he and the US Armed forces have objectively done

1970
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:24,720
Speaker 1: more for secularism than the whole of the American agnostic

1971
01:58:24,720 --> 01:58:28,360
Speaker 1: community combined and doubled. While the left makes apologies for

1972
01:58:28,400 --> 01:58:31,480
Speaker 1: religious terrorists, the right supports their obliteration to protect our

1973
01:58:31,520 --> 01:58:34,920
Speaker 1: secular state. Secularism is not just a smug attitude. It

1974
01:58:35,000 --> 01:58:37,800
Speaker 1: is a possible way of democratic and pluralistic life that

1975
01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:41,720
Speaker 1: only became thinkable after several wars and revolutions had ruthlessly

1976
01:58:41,760 --> 01:58:44,040
Speaker 1: smashed the hold of clergy on the state. We are

1977
01:58:44,040 --> 01:58:46,640
Speaker 1: now in the middle of another such war and revolution,

1978
01:58:46,720 --> 01:58:50,120
Speaker 1: and the liberals have gone a wall. That's Kavanaugh's summary

1979
01:58:50,160 --> 01:58:54,280
Speaker 1: of Hitchens is article, but like, what's going on there

1980
01:58:54,360 --> 01:58:57,280
Speaker 1: is really interesting because Hitchens is proceeding as an a

1981
01:58:57,320 --> 01:59:00,480
Speaker 1: priori assumption that the attack on the Twin Hours is

1982
01:59:00,520 --> 01:59:03,320
Speaker 1: an attempt by a theocracy to take over and destroy

1983
01:59:03,320 --> 01:59:07,400
Speaker 1: a secular state, rather than an attempt to damage economically

1984
01:59:07,480 --> 01:59:10,680
Speaker 1: a military enemy um and goat it into a war

1985
01:59:10,720 --> 01:59:14,040
Speaker 1: that would weaken it socially, militarily and economically, which is

1986
01:59:14,040 --> 01:59:17,520
Speaker 1: exactly what had actually happened. The liberals that Hitchens attacks

1987
01:59:17,560 --> 01:59:20,880
Speaker 1: is former allies are basically saying, don't take the bait right,

1988
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:23,360
Speaker 1: don't do the thing that he wants you to do,

1989
01:59:23,640 --> 01:59:25,720
Speaker 1: because it will it will lead to the results he

1990
01:59:25,760 --> 01:59:28,760
Speaker 1: wants to achieve. All Hitchens can see is that, like

1991
01:59:28,920 --> 01:59:31,600
Speaker 1: Muslim extremists are scary and they want to hurt him

1992
01:59:31,640 --> 01:59:35,640
Speaker 1: as an atheist, religion is doing things that hurt me,

1993
01:59:36,000 --> 01:59:38,920
Speaker 1: So I must destroy the people who believe in this city. Yeah.

1994
01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:42,160
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because everybody, all of the people who

1995
01:59:42,240 --> 01:59:44,919
Speaker 1: are kind of on the side of this civic religion,

1996
01:59:45,280 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 1: which is which is why they're responding, because there they're

1997
01:59:47,680 --> 01:59:50,560
Speaker 1: civic religion has been attacked and this strike on the towers.

1998
01:59:50,880 --> 01:59:52,920
Speaker 1: They all find kind of different ways to justify it.

1999
01:59:53,040 --> 01:59:55,440
Speaker 1: Hitchens is a prominent atheist, so it makes sense that

2000
01:59:55,520 --> 01:59:58,320
Speaker 1: he kind of sees it as a fight against theocracy.

2001
01:59:58,640 --> 02:00:00,320
Speaker 1: If you go through a lot of footage of news

2002
02:00:00,360 --> 02:00:02,560
Speaker 1: anchors in the immediate wake of the attack. Garrison, you

2003
02:00:02,560 --> 02:00:04,200
Speaker 1: and I were doing this a couple of nights ago.

2004
02:00:04,480 --> 02:00:08,160
Speaker 1: There were numerous references that the Twin Towers, which were

2005
02:00:08,200 --> 02:00:12,440
Speaker 1: a symbol of capitalism, and that they represent capitalist and

2006
02:00:12,520 --> 02:00:16,160
Speaker 1: American supremacy over capital It's like it's it's it's like

2007
02:00:16,200 --> 02:00:20,120
Speaker 1: the American supremacy of the economic system and and and

2008
02:00:20,800 --> 02:00:23,840
Speaker 1: like a reified symbol of capitalism almost like it's like

2009
02:00:24,000 --> 02:00:27,920
Speaker 1: it's like an idol to like to the god of capital. Yeah,

2010
02:00:28,680 --> 02:00:30,680
Speaker 1: there's a there's a number of different things you can

2011
02:00:30,720 --> 02:00:33,200
Speaker 1: find making this point. But in a column that published

2012
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:36,880
Speaker 1: on nine twelve, uh, the Washington Post editorial Board wrote,

2013
02:00:37,120 --> 02:00:39,600
Speaker 1: for three decades, the Twin Towers of New York's World

2014
02:00:39,640 --> 02:00:42,360
Speaker 1: Trade Center stood as the symbol of American economic might,

2015
02:00:42,560 --> 02:00:45,240
Speaker 1: as powerful an icon for capitalism as the Statue of

2016
02:00:45,280 --> 02:00:50,520
Speaker 1: Liberty is for freedom exactly exactly. That's yeah, yeah, it's amazing. No,

2017
02:00:50,680 --> 02:00:52,840
Speaker 1: people were just saying this ship the day. You ever

2018
02:00:52,880 --> 02:00:55,400
Speaker 1: think that's funny about it. It's like no one thought

2019
02:00:55,480 --> 02:00:59,160
Speaker 1: this before. Like these are cheap fucking buildings, like the

2020
02:00:59,200 --> 02:01:02,720
Speaker 1: World Trades Yeah, like a license, Like it's literally It's

2021
02:01:02,760 --> 02:01:06,600
Speaker 1: just like license is a nameless license out. It's like that,

2022
02:01:06,960 --> 02:01:08,920
Speaker 1: you know, But that doesn't because again, what what you

2023
02:01:09,760 --> 02:01:12,360
Speaker 1: by saying this when they're saying like, for three decades,

2024
02:01:12,360 --> 02:01:15,520
Speaker 1: this was the symbol of American economic might. People and

2025
02:01:15,560 --> 02:01:17,240
Speaker 1: I keep going back to my parents, but I think

2026
02:01:17,240 --> 02:01:20,560
Speaker 1: they represent a lot of Americans saw the defeat of

2027
02:01:20,600 --> 02:01:24,200
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union as being achieved by the US economy,

2028
02:01:24,280 --> 02:01:27,080
Speaker 1: by capitalist right, and and that's the thing that ended history.

2029
02:01:27,160 --> 02:01:29,320
Speaker 1: That's the thing that got them to their neo liver paradise.

2030
02:01:29,400 --> 02:01:31,800
Speaker 1: It's the thing that saved them from the nukes. And

2031
02:01:31,840 --> 02:01:36,640
Speaker 1: so by taking these towers down, bin Laden basically killed Superman. Right,

2032
02:01:36,680 --> 02:01:41,040
Speaker 1: That's how they're reacting to it. Um. George Bush and

2033
02:01:41,080 --> 02:01:44,280
Speaker 1: Christopher Hitchens and the Washington Post editorial board, they all

2034
02:01:44,320 --> 02:01:47,360
Speaker 1: saw their support for war not as as not based

2035
02:01:47,360 --> 02:01:50,440
Speaker 1: in religion. All of them would have denied this right, Um.

2036
02:01:50,480 --> 02:01:53,360
Speaker 1: But Kavanaugh argues that they were motivated primarily by what

2037
02:01:53,400 --> 02:01:55,680
Speaker 1: he calls the civil religion of the United States, which

2038
02:01:55,680 --> 02:01:57,280
Speaker 1: is why I've been using that term. I'm gonna quote

2039
02:01:57,320 --> 02:01:59,960
Speaker 1: from his paper again. The United States has its own

2040
02:02:00,000 --> 02:02:02,760
Speaker 1: civil religion, which, though relying on the support of Christians,

2041
02:02:02,760 --> 02:02:07,160
Speaker 1: and undoubtedly, borrowing much from Christian imagery, transcends mere sectarian

2042
02:02:07,200 --> 02:02:10,760
Speaker 1: religion to unite all Americans on a higher ground. Indeed,

2043
02:02:10,840 --> 02:02:13,960
Speaker 1: this is what makes secularism compatible with civil religion. What

2044
02:02:14,120 --> 02:02:18,520
Speaker 1: Robert Bella calls traditional religion is privatized, while civic rituals

2045
02:02:18,520 --> 02:02:22,440
Speaker 1: revolve around a generic God who underwrites America's identity and

2046
02:02:22,480 --> 02:02:25,640
Speaker 1: purpose in the world. In this sense, Andrew Sullivan is right.

2047
02:02:25,920 --> 02:02:28,560
Speaker 1: This is a religious war. The war of which nine

2048
02:02:28,560 --> 02:02:31,920
Speaker 1: eleven was a significant marker, is not extremist and expansionist

2049
02:02:31,920 --> 02:02:35,200
Speaker 1: religion against a peace loving and neutral secularist order. It

2050
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:38,840
Speaker 1: is rather the violent confrontation of Islamist terrorism with the

2051
02:02:38,920 --> 02:02:43,840
Speaker 1: civil religion of American expansionism, that is, the evangelical insistence

2052
02:02:43,880 --> 02:02:46,800
Speaker 1: that liberal social order is the only viable kind of

2053
02:02:46,880 --> 02:02:49,680
Speaker 1: social order. It is what Tarik Ali has called the

2054
02:02:49,760 --> 02:02:53,520
Speaker 1: clash of fundamentalisms. And I think that's important because I

2055
02:02:53,520 --> 02:02:55,480
Speaker 1: think one way area in which the left really got

2056
02:02:55,520 --> 02:02:58,760
Speaker 1: things wrong in sort of their interpretation of what happens

2057
02:02:58,760 --> 02:03:00,720
Speaker 1: in this period of seeing it as a lash between

2058
02:03:01,200 --> 02:03:04,440
Speaker 1: kind of Christian fundamentalists as embodied by George Bush and

2059
02:03:04,720 --> 02:03:08,200
Speaker 1: Islamic fundamentalists. No, no, no. The people who were leading

2060
02:03:08,240 --> 02:03:10,560
Speaker 1: this country, including Bush, but including most of the the Liberals,

2061
02:03:10,560 --> 02:03:14,400
Speaker 1: were America fundamentalists. They were fundamentalists in the idea of

2062
02:03:14,400 --> 02:03:17,040
Speaker 1: the secular American state, and so were my parents. As

2063
02:03:17,040 --> 02:03:20,000
Speaker 1: conservative as they were, my family was never about you know,

2064
02:03:20,280 --> 02:03:23,040
Speaker 1: Christianity needing to be spread over there. It was about

2065
02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:27,920
Speaker 1: this this belief in America as something holy and that

2066
02:03:28,080 --> 02:03:31,360
Speaker 1: something holy and sacred had been struck on September eleven.

2067
02:03:32,280 --> 02:03:37,160
Speaker 1: I will say I I think, I I don't know,

2068
02:03:37,360 --> 02:03:41,560
Speaker 1: it's easy for me to see why people think about

2069
02:03:41,600 --> 02:03:43,760
Speaker 1: this on the left sort of as this Christian holy war,

2070
02:03:43,800 --> 02:03:45,240
Speaker 1: because like I grew up with a lot of people

2071
02:03:45,920 --> 02:03:48,480
Speaker 1: who like in the wake of this, who like really

2072
02:03:48,480 --> 02:03:51,080
Speaker 1: were full on into the crusade thing. Like I had

2073
02:03:51,440 --> 02:03:53,360
Speaker 1: classmates would talk about how they were going to join

2074
02:03:53,400 --> 02:03:57,080
Speaker 1: the military to kill a Muslims. Like there was like

2075
02:03:57,160 --> 02:03:59,520
Speaker 1: I think this is a real thing. Sure, and that's

2076
02:03:59,520 --> 02:04:02,160
Speaker 1: what I mean, that's sort of analytic wrong, that's what

2077
02:04:02,320 --> 02:04:04,840
Speaker 1: that's what Kavanaugh saying, and that it's kind of scaffolded

2078
02:04:04,960 --> 02:04:10,200
Speaker 1: on Christianity. But like that's fun fundamentally, like the fact

2079
02:04:10,280 --> 02:04:12,160
Speaker 1: that there are some people who are going in there

2080
02:04:12,200 --> 02:04:14,880
Speaker 1: being like this is finally religious crusade, doesn't mean that's

2081
02:04:14,920 --> 02:04:17,800
Speaker 1: like what the leadership of the country is doing, and

2082
02:04:17,800 --> 02:04:19,240
Speaker 1: as I have to do. I think that's part of

2083
02:04:19,320 --> 02:04:23,280
Speaker 1: why we get Trump and the current Christian extremist surge

2084
02:04:23,840 --> 02:04:27,120
Speaker 1: is that, uh, it's a reaction to how kind of

2085
02:04:27,160 --> 02:04:30,600
Speaker 1: the neo cons go with this, because for the neo cons,

2086
02:04:30,680 --> 02:04:33,880
Speaker 1: this isn't really about this isn't about Christianity is something

2087
02:04:33,920 --> 02:04:36,360
Speaker 1: you use in this fight, but like, that's not what

2088
02:04:36,440 --> 02:04:40,600
Speaker 1: you're fighting for here. Um. And I think there's there's

2089
02:04:40,640 --> 02:04:42,720
Speaker 1: a good amount of evidence for the fact that Americans

2090
02:04:43,120 --> 02:04:47,240
Speaker 1: identified something as being like holy about the Twin Towers,

2091
02:04:47,240 --> 02:04:51,560
Speaker 1: particularly after the attack. UM from Kavanaughs study in Public

2092
02:04:51,600 --> 02:04:54,480
Speaker 1: Theology Quote and August to thousand ten of poll found

2093
02:04:54,480 --> 02:04:57,200
Speaker 1: that fifty six percent of Americans regard Ground zero as

2094
02:04:57,280 --> 02:05:00,600
Speaker 1: sacred ground, and a slightly larger majority opposes construction of

2095
02:05:00,600 --> 02:05:03,960
Speaker 1: a mosque nearby. For this region, a sacred aura surrounds

2096
02:05:03,960 --> 02:05:06,280
Speaker 1: the identity of the nation that was attacked on that day,

2097
02:05:06,400 --> 02:05:09,680
Speaker 1: and the attacks concentrated that sacredness in a particular location

2098
02:05:09,680 --> 02:05:12,200
Speaker 1: in time. It is not necessary to go back to

2099
02:05:12,240 --> 02:05:15,080
Speaker 1: the more famously evangelical George W. Bush to make the

2100
02:05:15,120 --> 02:05:17,800
Speaker 1: link between piety and nine eleven. In his speech at

2101
02:05:17,800 --> 02:05:21,200
Speaker 1: Ground Zero last September eleventh, two thousand ten, Barack Obama

2102
02:05:21,200 --> 02:05:24,280
Speaker 1: talked about gathering at this sacred hour on hallowed Ground

2103
02:05:24,560 --> 02:05:26,440
Speaker 1: and talked about how those who were not only killed

2104
02:05:26,480 --> 02:05:29,720
Speaker 1: but sacrificed in the attacks. God was invoked, of course,

2105
02:05:29,760 --> 02:05:32,280
Speaker 1: but it was a generic God who belonged to no

2106
02:05:32,400 --> 02:05:36,120
Speaker 1: particular faith, because, as Obama made clear, the victims themselves

2107
02:05:36,160 --> 02:05:39,400
Speaker 1: were of many faiths. Yeah, this is I mean one

2108
02:05:39,400 --> 02:05:42,120
Speaker 1: of the things that I think is interesting if you're

2109
02:05:42,120 --> 02:05:44,800
Speaker 1: actually trying to analyze this and you want to see

2110
02:05:44,880 --> 02:05:46,840
Speaker 1: kind of the degree to which why I think it's

2111
02:05:46,840 --> 02:05:51,000
Speaker 1: important to look at how people treated the space itself

2112
02:05:51,080 --> 02:05:55,800
Speaker 1: is sacred, is how actual religion responded in the wake

2113
02:05:55,840 --> 02:05:58,560
Speaker 1: of nine eleven, and how Americans responded to religion in

2114
02:05:58,560 --> 02:06:01,800
Speaker 1: the wake of nine eleven, because you know, it says

2115
02:06:01,840 --> 02:06:04,200
Speaker 1: they're about fifty six percent of the country. See, this

2116
02:06:04,320 --> 02:06:07,320
Speaker 1: is like hallowed Ground in some way. Um. And I

2117
02:06:07,360 --> 02:06:09,840
Speaker 1: think there's evidence that people kind of rose up to

2118
02:06:09,840 --> 02:06:13,280
Speaker 1: defend this civic religion more than they actually did their

2119
02:06:13,360 --> 02:06:17,520
Speaker 1: real faiths. Um. And this is because primarily the reaction

2120
02:06:18,280 --> 02:06:21,000
Speaker 1: on a on a population basis to September eleven, is

2121
02:06:21,040 --> 02:06:24,800
Speaker 1: that religiosity in the United States continued to decline. Right,

2122
02:06:24,840 --> 02:06:27,120
Speaker 1: There's a public idea that it led to this like

2123
02:06:27,280 --> 02:06:29,880
Speaker 1: surge of people coming back to the church and getting

2124
02:06:29,880 --> 02:06:32,960
Speaker 1: religious again, but there's really no demographic evidence to back

2125
02:06:33,000 --> 02:06:34,440
Speaker 1: that up. And I want to quote from an article

2126
02:06:34,440 --> 02:06:37,520
Speaker 1: I found in Christianity Today. For a few weeks after

2127
02:06:37,640 --> 02:06:40,040
Speaker 1: nine eleven, people packed the pews, but it soon became

2128
02:06:40,080 --> 02:06:42,680
Speaker 1: apparent there was not a great awakening or a profound

2129
02:06:42,840 --> 02:06:46,520
Speaker 1: change in America's religious practices, as Frank M. Newport Gallop Pole,

2130
02:06:46,600 --> 02:06:48,680
Speaker 1: editor in chief, told The New York Times in November

2131
02:06:48,680 --> 02:06:51,720
Speaker 1: of two thousand one. Barnard Group confirmed that conclusion in

2132
02:06:51,720 --> 02:06:55,640
Speaker 1: two thousand six, attract nineteen dimensions of spirituality and beliefs

2133
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:59,000
Speaker 1: and found none of those nineteen indicators were statistically different

2134
02:06:59,200 --> 02:07:02,000
Speaker 1: from pre attack measures. In other words, that not eleven

2135
02:07:02,040 --> 02:07:05,160
Speaker 1: attacks didn't put American Christians on a trajectory towards more

2136
02:07:05,320 --> 02:07:08,959
Speaker 1: orthodox beliefs or more consistent habits of prayer, church attendance,

2137
02:07:09,000 --> 02:07:11,240
Speaker 1: or scripture reading. And so far as we can measure

2138
02:07:11,280 --> 02:07:14,720
Speaker 1: matters of faith, the decline of American religiosity continue to

2139
02:07:14,800 --> 02:07:18,480
Speaker 1: pace spiritually speaking, said barn As David Kinneman. It's as

2140
02:07:18,520 --> 02:07:23,560
Speaker 1: if nothing significant ever happened, and that's something evangelicals have

2141
02:07:23,560 --> 02:07:25,680
Speaker 1: had to grapple with ever since the US did not

2142
02:07:25,760 --> 02:07:29,240
Speaker 1: turn back to God demographically. And while hateful attacks against

2143
02:07:29,320 --> 02:07:31,520
Speaker 1: Muslims surged, you have to acknowledge that a lot of

2144
02:07:31,520 --> 02:07:33,560
Speaker 1: those were from people who were more or less secular

2145
02:07:34,040 --> 02:07:36,040
Speaker 1: um in the traditional sense. And this is part of

2146
02:07:36,080 --> 02:07:40,400
Speaker 1: why so many of the online atheists set Uh sided

2147
02:07:40,440 --> 02:07:42,360
Speaker 1: with the al right in two thousand fifteen, in two

2148
02:07:42,360 --> 02:07:44,560
Speaker 1: thousand sixteen, right, it's because there are a lot of

2149
02:07:44,600 --> 02:07:48,520
Speaker 1: those people Um, while they would have described themselves as

2150
02:07:48,560 --> 02:07:52,040
Speaker 1: an opposition to Christianity as well, were very much a

2151
02:07:52,080 --> 02:07:54,520
Speaker 1: part of the same civic religion as everybody else. And

2152
02:07:54,520 --> 02:07:57,280
Speaker 1: we're willing to engage in racist attacks against members of

2153
02:07:57,320 --> 02:07:59,720
Speaker 1: religion as a result of that. You know, when when

2154
02:07:59,720 --> 02:08:02,360
Speaker 1: you get the fact that a majority of Americans saw

2155
02:08:02,440 --> 02:08:05,320
Speaker 1: ground zero was sacred and opposed building a mosque because

2156
02:08:05,360 --> 02:08:07,720
Speaker 1: of that, a decent chunk of those people are not

2157
02:08:07,880 --> 02:08:10,280
Speaker 1: Christians who opposed the building of a mosque, Right, they're

2158
02:08:10,320 --> 02:08:13,000
Speaker 1: a religious or their atheist, and they opposed the building

2159
02:08:13,040 --> 02:08:16,200
Speaker 1: of a mosque because they still see Islam as an enemy. Yeah,

2160
02:08:16,240 --> 02:08:20,080
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's interesting, but Americans were not moved to

2161
02:08:20,160 --> 02:08:24,360
Speaker 1: embrace religion by the attacks UM and the deterioration of

2162
02:08:24,360 --> 02:08:26,360
Speaker 1: our sense of security that followed, and I think that

2163
02:08:26,440 --> 02:08:30,240
Speaker 1: Evangelicals have never been able to actually accept this. A

2164
02:08:30,280 --> 02:08:33,360
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen Barner Group survey found that most Americans,

2165
02:08:33,360 --> 02:08:37,160
Speaker 1: but particularly born again Christians, believe nine eleven quote made

2166
02:08:37,240 --> 02:08:40,320
Speaker 1: people turn back to God, and this again has led

2167
02:08:40,360 --> 02:08:42,960
Speaker 1: to kind of a fetishization of the period right after

2168
02:08:43,080 --> 02:08:46,600
Speaker 1: nine eleven UM. The writer of that Christianity Today article

2169
02:08:46,680 --> 02:08:49,960
Speaker 1: I cited earlier theorizes quote. My first suggestion is what

2170
02:08:50,000 --> 02:08:52,240
Speaker 1: we thought was hope wasn't lost at all. It was

2171
02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:54,960
Speaker 1: less Christian trust and character and redemption of God than

2172
02:08:55,000 --> 02:08:58,720
Speaker 1: American optimism, coded with not quite biblical bromides that when

2173
02:08:58,760 --> 02:09:02,320
Speaker 1: there's bad, good will follow. Americans love to believe that

2174
02:09:02,400 --> 02:09:04,840
Speaker 1: everything happens for a reason, and that after a short

2175
02:09:04,840 --> 02:09:07,360
Speaker 1: period of time, sorrow will always turn into joy and

2176
02:09:07,440 --> 02:09:12,160
Speaker 1: suffering into sanctifications. We quote Romans we know that in

2177
02:09:12,200 --> 02:09:14,000
Speaker 1: all things God works for the good of those who

2178
02:09:14,080 --> 02:09:16,680
Speaker 1: love him, and incorrectly interpreted to mean that everything that

2179
02:09:16,760 --> 02:09:20,400
Speaker 1: happens to us will also somehow work out, Okay, And

2180
02:09:20,440 --> 02:09:22,520
Speaker 1: I think that they're onto something here, and this really

2181
02:09:22,560 --> 02:09:24,640
Speaker 1: that this goes back to what Kavanaugh was saying about

2182
02:09:24,640 --> 02:09:27,840
Speaker 1: how this civil religion is kind of grafted on over

2183
02:09:27,880 --> 02:09:33,640
Speaker 1: the bones of Christianity, right, Um, and it's it's there's

2184
02:09:33,640 --> 02:09:36,080
Speaker 1: so much. Part of what's interesting to me here is

2185
02:09:36,120 --> 02:09:38,800
Speaker 1: that well, I think it's it's worthwhile that he quotes Romans.

2186
02:09:39,720 --> 02:09:42,200
Speaker 1: I have to think that this, this belief that Americans

2187
02:09:42,240 --> 02:09:44,800
Speaker 1: have that everything happens for a reason, is at least

2188
02:09:44,840 --> 02:09:47,800
Speaker 1: as undergirded by like Disney as it is with scripture.

2189
02:09:48,000 --> 02:09:50,280
Speaker 1: It's undergraded by the way we tell stories, by the

2190
02:09:50,320 --> 02:09:53,120
Speaker 1: way fiction works in our society, which is a very

2191
02:09:53,240 --> 02:09:56,800
Speaker 1: unique to us. Right, Every culture does not tell stories

2192
02:09:56,880 --> 02:10:00,320
Speaker 1: the same way. Well, and I think, like, if you

2193
02:10:00,320 --> 02:10:02,840
Speaker 1: want to trace that out to like, I think that's

2194
02:10:02,840 --> 02:10:06,960
Speaker 1: part of the reason why people are so unbelievably any

2195
02:10:06,960 --> 02:10:11,600
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories here. Yeah, if everything needs to have a reason,

2196
02:10:11,640 --> 02:10:14,040
Speaker 1: that it's part of an overarching grand narrative that ties

2197
02:10:14,080 --> 02:10:18,200
Speaker 1: everything together. Yeah, And it's obviously again I don't want

2198
02:10:18,200 --> 02:10:20,640
Speaker 1: to like underplay and perhaps we should do an episode

2199
02:10:20,680 --> 02:10:23,080
Speaker 1: maybe behind the bastards on the reaction of the religious

2200
02:10:23,160 --> 02:10:26,120
Speaker 1: right to nine eleven, which was nuts and it was

2201
02:10:26,480 --> 02:10:29,680
Speaker 1: vicious and horrific. I'm not I'm not trying to deny that,

2202
02:10:30,080 --> 02:10:31,800
Speaker 1: but I think one of the things that happens in

2203
02:10:31,840 --> 02:10:35,640
Speaker 1: this period is they grow increasingly infuriated that that is

2204
02:10:35,680 --> 02:10:38,480
Speaker 1: not shared by a majority of the country, that it

2205
02:10:38,520 --> 02:10:42,720
Speaker 1: doesn't bring a religious revival, right, that that doesn't follow

2206
02:10:42,760 --> 02:10:47,640
Speaker 1: September eleven. Um. Now, it is kind of there's a

2207
02:10:47,680 --> 02:10:50,880
Speaker 1: couple of things that are interesting here. Um. One of

2208
02:10:50,880 --> 02:10:54,480
Speaker 1: them is that, uh, the apocalyptic Christian believers, they do

2209
02:10:54,600 --> 02:10:57,840
Speaker 1: have kind of this this in with the Bush administration.

2210
02:10:57,920 --> 02:11:00,760
Speaker 1: We know that at one point a bunch of apocalyptic

2211
02:11:01,000 --> 02:11:03,840
Speaker 1: like Christian representatives, like people who are kind of heading

2212
02:11:03,920 --> 02:11:07,040
Speaker 1: churches and stuff that believe there's this belief among certain

2213
02:11:07,120 --> 02:11:09,880
Speaker 1: Christians that you need to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

2214
02:11:09,920 --> 02:11:12,160
Speaker 1: and bring about the end of days and all this stuff.

2215
02:11:12,160 --> 02:11:13,600
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of ship that has to happen in

2216
02:11:13,640 --> 02:11:16,640
Speaker 1: Palestine in order for the apocalypse to come, and they're

2217
02:11:16,640 --> 02:11:18,880
Speaker 1: trying to get us presidents to make it happen. This

2218
02:11:18,960 --> 02:11:21,560
Speaker 1: is why Trump made some of the calls that he

2219
02:11:21,640 --> 02:11:25,600
Speaker 1: made was to deliberately like give those people a win, um,

2220
02:11:25,640 --> 02:11:27,000
Speaker 1: which is why some of the ship that happened in

2221
02:11:27,080 --> 02:11:30,839
Speaker 1: Jerusalem during the Trump administration um was able to happen.

2222
02:11:31,360 --> 02:11:33,120
Speaker 1: All of that stuff is stuff that they went to

2223
02:11:33,160 --> 02:11:35,040
Speaker 1: George Bush. They had a two hour meeting with him

2224
02:11:35,040 --> 02:11:38,000
Speaker 1: and Elliott Abrams and a bunch of his staff were

2225
02:11:38,000 --> 02:11:41,440
Speaker 1: these representatives of kind of like the Pentecostal movement. Tried

2226
02:11:41,480 --> 02:11:43,720
Speaker 1: to get him to carry out this wish list policy

2227
02:11:43,800 --> 02:11:46,920
Speaker 1: of acts around Israel and Iraq to help them bring

2228
02:11:46,920 --> 02:11:50,320
Speaker 1: about the rapture, and the Bush administration didn't really do

2229
02:11:50,360 --> 02:11:52,080
Speaker 1: any of that. They have to take the meeting, right,

2230
02:11:52,080 --> 02:11:54,080
Speaker 1: They bring these guys in, they don't give them what

2231
02:11:54,080 --> 02:11:56,160
Speaker 1: they want. It's not until Trump that a lot of

2232
02:11:56,200 --> 02:11:58,960
Speaker 1: these guys get what they want. And what you what

2233
02:11:59,200 --> 02:12:03,800
Speaker 1: happens here. You've got this this death cult Christian group

2234
02:12:03,960 --> 02:12:06,160
Speaker 1: who see this as a crusade and who want to

2235
02:12:06,200 --> 02:12:09,680
Speaker 1: war with Islam, and they're constantly frustrated by the fact

2236
02:12:09,680 --> 02:12:12,200
Speaker 1: that even though he's supposed to be their guy, Bush

2237
02:12:12,280 --> 02:12:14,640
Speaker 1: doesn't go all the way for them, right, and this

2238
02:12:14,720 --> 02:12:19,120
Speaker 1: is part of why his military adventurism gets criticized effectively

2239
02:12:19,160 --> 02:12:22,800
Speaker 1: by guys like Trump. Who win the evangelical right, because

2240
02:12:23,080 --> 02:12:24,840
Speaker 1: the evangelicals say, like, well, if we're not going to

2241
02:12:24,920 --> 02:12:26,880
Speaker 1: have a holy war, then like what was this stuff?

2242
02:12:26,880 --> 02:12:28,520
Speaker 1: We just wasted a bunch of of money and a

2243
02:12:28,520 --> 02:12:30,440
Speaker 1: bunch of treasure and a bunch of young men for

2244
02:12:30,600 --> 02:12:33,800
Speaker 1: nothing over there. Um. And that's part of like what

2245
02:12:33,880 --> 02:12:37,400
Speaker 1: Trump wins on. Now, these two factions, these neo cons,

2246
02:12:37,440 --> 02:12:39,440
Speaker 1: the guys who wind up, by the way, the guys

2247
02:12:39,480 --> 02:12:41,800
Speaker 1: who are sort of on the civic religion side of

2248
02:12:41,840 --> 02:12:43,960
Speaker 1: the response to nine eleven are all the people who

2249
02:12:44,000 --> 02:12:46,800
Speaker 1: wind up running the Lincoln project right when you're talking

2250
02:12:46,800 --> 02:12:49,480
Speaker 1: about the Republicans on that side of thing. And then

2251
02:12:49,520 --> 02:12:52,320
Speaker 1: the part the folks who break off the evangelicals, the

2252
02:12:52,320 --> 02:12:54,880
Speaker 1: people who want to holy war, that's who winds up

2253
02:12:54,880 --> 02:12:59,400
Speaker 1: making the core of Trump's support. Um. And yeah, And

2254
02:12:59,440 --> 02:13:02,440
Speaker 1: that's I think mostly where I'm going to leave us

2255
02:13:02,480 --> 02:13:05,280
Speaker 1: for today. On nine twelve. Next week we'll have another

2256
02:13:05,320 --> 02:13:08,760
Speaker 1: special episode about Glenn Beck's nine twelve project that will

2257
02:13:08,800 --> 02:13:10,360
Speaker 1: be kind of the finishing of this. But I want

2258
02:13:10,360 --> 02:13:13,520
Speaker 1: to end because we're talking about why I did this

2259
02:13:13,560 --> 02:13:15,760
Speaker 1: and why I started by talking about jokes about nine

2260
02:13:15,800 --> 02:13:21,680
Speaker 1: eleven is because I think understanding understanding the attack on

2261
02:13:21,720 --> 02:13:24,960
Speaker 1: the towers as like an attack on what what had

2262
02:13:25,000 --> 02:13:27,880
Speaker 1: effectively become a god to a lot of Americans, even

2263
02:13:27,920 --> 02:13:30,560
Speaker 1: if they didn't realize it. Right, the sanctity of this

2264
02:13:30,640 --> 02:13:35,320
Speaker 1: kind of neoliberal capitalist order, and it's it's it's um,

2265
02:13:35,360 --> 02:13:40,160
Speaker 1: it's historic inevitability. Right. The fact that that's what was

2266
02:13:40,200 --> 02:13:43,400
Speaker 1: going on, that that that was so dear to people,

2267
02:13:43,480 --> 02:13:46,760
Speaker 1: that justified so much violence, twenty years of war, of

2268
02:13:46,840 --> 02:13:50,520
Speaker 1: bombing's millions of deaths is part of why I think

2269
02:13:51,040 --> 02:13:54,080
Speaker 1: there's a value in joking about nine eleven, which is

2270
02:13:54,080 --> 02:13:56,760
Speaker 1: not to say that what happened wasn't terrible. Three three

2271
02:13:56,760 --> 02:13:59,880
Speaker 1: thousand and change innocent people were murdered um in a

2272
02:14:00,040 --> 02:14:02,120
Speaker 1: in a truly horrific way. If you actually sit down

2273
02:14:02,160 --> 02:14:04,640
Speaker 1: and watch the footage the people falling out of the buildings,

2274
02:14:05,000 --> 02:14:06,760
Speaker 1: it's a namare. If you think about stuff like Flight

2275
02:14:06,880 --> 02:14:09,640
Speaker 1: ninety three, it's it's really stirring. You have these people

2276
02:14:09,680 --> 02:14:12,919
Speaker 1: who one moment they're heading to like see their families

2277
02:14:13,040 --> 02:14:14,440
Speaker 1: or go on a work trip or something. You're on

2278
02:14:14,440 --> 02:14:17,320
Speaker 1: a plane experience, I'm sure everybody has, where you're just

2279
02:14:17,360 --> 02:14:19,200
Speaker 1: like trying to get from A to B and in

2280
02:14:19,240 --> 02:14:21,320
Speaker 1: the space of like a few minutes. They have to

2281
02:14:21,360 --> 02:14:24,120
Speaker 1: all decide they're going to charge a bunch of terrorists,

2282
02:14:24,480 --> 02:14:27,000
Speaker 1: fight in hand to hand combat, and then pilot a

2283
02:14:27,040 --> 02:14:29,040
Speaker 1: plane into the ground in order to stop it from

2284
02:14:29,120 --> 02:14:33,800
Speaker 1: killing other people. That's that's powerful stuff. Um. What what

2285
02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:37,320
Speaker 1: I think is important is de sacralizing it, because there's

2286
02:14:37,320 --> 02:14:42,160
Speaker 1: nothing sacred about mass murder um, and there's nothing there's

2287
02:14:42,360 --> 02:14:44,760
Speaker 1: we shouldn't see what happened, there is anything but what

2288
02:14:44,800 --> 02:14:48,200
Speaker 1: it is, which is a tragic um, a tragic act

2289
02:14:48,200 --> 02:14:51,840
Speaker 1: of violence against innocent people. But taking it as like

2290
02:14:51,880 --> 02:14:57,040
Speaker 1: an attack on our soul, as an attack on like

2291
02:14:57,200 --> 02:15:01,440
Speaker 1: our our collective god. Um. When you start to do

2292
02:15:01,480 --> 02:15:05,000
Speaker 1: that again, it kind of justifies any sort of violence,

2293
02:15:05,040 --> 02:15:08,080
Speaker 1: like there's nothing, there's nothing that's off the table, and

2294
02:15:08,160 --> 02:15:10,400
Speaker 1: in in the first few years after nine eleven, there

2295
02:15:10,440 --> 02:15:14,240
Speaker 1: was nothing off the table. Um, And we're never getting

2296
02:15:14,320 --> 02:15:17,840
Speaker 1: back to the world that we had before, which is

2297
02:15:17,920 --> 02:15:20,720
Speaker 1: ultimately like what all that violence was about. Right, all

2298
02:15:20,800 --> 02:15:22,920
Speaker 1: of everything terrible that was in the wake of nine

2299
02:15:22,920 --> 02:15:26,160
Speaker 1: eleven was justified, even if people didn't say it. In

2300
02:15:26,200 --> 02:15:28,440
Speaker 1: the desire to get back to where we were in

2301
02:15:28,440 --> 02:15:30,960
Speaker 1: the nineties, right in their heads and their sense of security.

2302
02:15:30,960 --> 02:15:33,800
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about anything is like courses, economic projections.

2303
02:15:34,040 --> 02:15:36,960
Speaker 1: I'm talking about in the sense of like optimism and

2304
02:15:37,160 --> 02:15:39,920
Speaker 1: basic security. And I think one of the people who

2305
02:15:39,960 --> 02:15:42,120
Speaker 1: got this best in the immediate wake of the attack

2306
02:15:42,560 --> 02:15:45,120
Speaker 1: was Hunter S. Thompson, who you know, was still alive

2307
02:15:45,120 --> 02:15:46,640
Speaker 1: at that point for a couple of years, and he

2308
02:15:46,680 --> 02:15:49,320
Speaker 1: wrote a column. I think it was for ESPN dot com,

2309
02:15:49,560 --> 02:15:52,200
Speaker 1: because that's who he was writing for in those days.

2310
02:15:52,240 --> 02:15:55,800
Speaker 1: His career was well past its peak, um, but he

2311
02:15:55,840 --> 02:15:59,160
Speaker 1: wrote probably the best thing anyone wrote a week after

2312
02:15:59,240 --> 02:16:01,080
Speaker 1: nine eleven. I'm going to read you the end of that.

2313
02:16:01,160 --> 02:16:04,960
Speaker 1: Now we're at war now, according to President Bush, and

2314
02:16:05,000 --> 02:16:07,040
Speaker 1: I take him at his word. He also says this

2315
02:16:07,080 --> 02:16:10,200
Speaker 1: war might last for a very long time. Generals and

2316
02:16:10,240 --> 02:16:12,600
Speaker 1: military scholars that will tell you that eight or ten

2317
02:16:12,680 --> 02:16:14,800
Speaker 1: years is actually not such a long time in the

2318
02:16:14,840 --> 02:16:17,560
Speaker 1: span of human history, which is no doubt true. But

2319
02:16:17,680 --> 02:16:20,000
Speaker 1: history also tells us that ten years of martial law

2320
02:16:20,040 --> 02:16:22,080
Speaker 1: and a wartime economy are going to feel like a

2321
02:16:22,120 --> 02:16:24,680
Speaker 1: lifetime to people who are in their twenties today. The

2322
02:16:24,720 --> 02:16:27,240
Speaker 1: poor bastards of what will forever be known as Generation

2323
02:16:27,400 --> 02:16:30,280
Speaker 1: Z are doomed to be the first generation of Americans

2324
02:16:30,280 --> 02:16:32,280
Speaker 1: who will grow up with the lower standard of living

2325
02:16:32,280 --> 02:16:35,680
Speaker 1: than their parents enjoyed. This is extremely heavy news and

2326
02:16:35,720 --> 02:16:37,720
Speaker 1: it will take a while for it to sink in.

2327
02:16:37,760 --> 02:16:39,959
Speaker 1: The twenty two babies born in New York City while

2328
02:16:40,000 --> 02:16:42,440
Speaker 1: the World Trade Center burned, will never know what they missed.

2329
02:16:42,680 --> 02:16:44,840
Speaker 1: The last half of the twentieth century will seem like

2330
02:16:44,879 --> 02:16:48,040
Speaker 1: a wild party for rich kids compared to what's coming now.

2331
02:16:48,400 --> 02:16:51,280
Speaker 1: The party's over, folks. Yeah, that is kind of the

2332
02:16:51,280 --> 02:16:55,440
Speaker 1: feeling growing up in the early two thousand's and not

2333
02:16:56,040 --> 02:17:00,520
Speaker 1: not knowing, not never actually experiencing the nineties. Yeah, some ways,

2334
02:17:01,040 --> 02:17:04,200
Speaker 1: you know, nine eleven feels very similar to me as

2335
02:17:04,200 --> 02:17:08,400
Speaker 1: something like Pearl Harbor, Like they're both things that happened

2336
02:17:08,520 --> 02:17:11,440
Speaker 1: I guess before I was around, and it just they

2337
02:17:11,520 --> 02:17:14,640
Speaker 1: created the world that already existed in like it never

2338
02:17:15,520 --> 02:17:19,560
Speaker 1: it never like it, you know, it never changed the

2339
02:17:19,600 --> 02:17:22,640
Speaker 1: world I was in. It just became the world that

2340
02:17:22,680 --> 02:17:25,840
Speaker 1: I was in. For me, nine eleven is my first memory,

2341
02:17:26,879 --> 02:17:31,640
Speaker 1: Like that is the first thing I remember, And yeah,

2342
02:17:31,680 --> 02:17:35,840
Speaker 1: we got exactly the world that you would expect from

2343
02:17:35,879 --> 02:17:40,480
Speaker 1: your first every reading nine eleven. Yeah, it's um, I

2344
02:17:40,480 --> 02:17:43,120
Speaker 1: mean again, for me, I think the thing I identify

2345
02:17:43,200 --> 02:17:45,240
Speaker 1: most is that little clip I played from South Park

2346
02:17:45,280 --> 02:17:46,800
Speaker 1: where one of the kids is like, do you remember

2347
02:17:46,840 --> 02:17:53,879
Speaker 1: when everything didn't suck? It's not really um, So yeah,

2348
02:17:54,320 --> 02:17:57,640
Speaker 1: go out, um, tell a tasteful joke about nine eleven,

2349
02:17:58,160 --> 02:18:03,879
Speaker 1: and try not to worship the state. It doesn't end well. Hey,

2350
02:18:03,959 --> 02:18:07,040
Speaker 1: we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

2351
02:18:07,080 --> 02:18:09,680
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe. It Could

2352
02:18:09,720 --> 02:18:12,000
Speaker 1: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For

2353
02:18:12,160 --> 02:18:14,880
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

2354
02:18:14,920 --> 02:18:16,920
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

2355
02:18:16,959 --> 02:18:19,640
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

2356
02:18:19,680 --> 02:18:22,440
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here,

2357
02:18:22,520 --> 02:18:26,160
Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources.

2358
02:18:26,160 --> 02:18:27,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.