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Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.

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Speaker 1: If you've listened to some of our previous episodes, like

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Speaker 1: the other other Magical Negro or we might regret this

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Speaker 1: episode later, then you know a little something something about

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Speaker 1: menstrual shows and Vatteville. And if you haven't, well, then

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Speaker 1: go back and listen to those episodes. But anyway, menstrual

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Speaker 1: shows were theatrical performances where actors got up on stage

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Speaker 1: and literally fixed their faces to become gross caricatures of

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Speaker 1: black people. One of the key visual components of the

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Speaker 1: menstrual show blackface. Actually, let me just read this description

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Speaker 1: from this eighteen ninety three compilation called the Menstrual Show

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Speaker 1: or Burnt Quirk Comicalities. In the matter of making up

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Speaker 1: the face, use only the best prepared burnt cork, which

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Speaker 1: can be obtained from any dealer in theatrical face preparations.

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Speaker 1: Moisten the hands with water and take a small quantity

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Speaker 1: of the quirk, rubbing it in the palm of your

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Speaker 1: hand until it becomes a thin paste. Then apply to

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Speaker 1: the skin. When it dries, brush the surface gently with

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Speaker 1: some soft substance, and removing the cork. Use only cold water,

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Speaker 1: a large sponge, and a soap that gives a generous lather.

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Speaker 2: Thanks to the enduring presence of white folks doing blackface

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Speaker 2: in the twenty first century, many folks who never got

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Speaker 2: a black face minstrel c one oh one in school

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Speaker 2: are well aware of the history and problems with blackface.

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Speaker 2: A viral video showing teens in a Cedar City Walmart

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Speaker 2: dressed in costumes and in blackface.

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Speaker 1: On blackface is back on the job after a first

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Speaker 1: grade teacher was photographed in blackface at a Halloween party. Flatful, Katie,

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Speaker 1: I was so sick of these news stories, not because

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Speaker 1: I was shocked, but because it was exhausting seeing all

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Speaker 1: the hoops folks were jumping through to calculate the value

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Speaker 1: of being well intentioned and white.

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Speaker 2: I think blackface is like a ray of passage for

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Speaker 2: white people actually, so we should give them.

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Speaker 1: Some grace hot take. But all these examples we have

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Speaker 1: of blackface today show just how deeply entrenched the practice

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Speaker 1: is in US culture. It didn't come from nowhere, even

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Speaker 1: though some folks would have us believe the blackface offenses

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Speaker 1: are innocent gaps, divorced from any context.

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Speaker 2: Right, And let's not pretend that we're that far removed

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Speaker 2: from a time of blackface performances.

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Speaker 1: Were hard for the course only a century ago. Really,

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Speaker 1: and as much as some people want to say that

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Speaker 1: it's an obsolete practice from a bygone era, we are

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Speaker 1: very much not over. It ain't nothing changed, but the

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Speaker 1: day and the technology and black stories are very much

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Speaker 1: a part of the history of blackface. I'm Katie and

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Speaker 1: I'm Eves. Today's episode bona fide blackface. So let's back

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Speaker 1: up a little, yes, and talk about the birth of blackface,

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Speaker 1: a curse creation. Honestly, Yes, in Shakespeare's plays. In medieval Europe,

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Speaker 1: blackness was associated with evil devil characters were blackface. But

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Speaker 1: the exact origins of blackface as a whole are debated,

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Speaker 1: but it definitely has roots in anti black acts that

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Speaker 1: were pervasive before the eighteen hundreds. Blackface minstreul sy, though,

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Speaker 1: is a distinctly American tradition that caught on in the

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Speaker 1: early nineteenth century. Thomas Dartmouth Rice is considered the father

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Speaker 1: of menstrul sy.

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Speaker 2: I feel like father is a little too pleasant of

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Speaker 2: a term.

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Speaker 1: Let's call him the problematic patriarch. Then, sure, that's better.

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Speaker 1: He did a one man show where he blacked up,

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Speaker 1: dressed in shabby clothes, wore a wig, and danced and

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Speaker 1: sung in a deceitfully clownish caricature of a black person.

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Speaker 1: He called his character Jim Crow, and it became an

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Speaker 1: archetypal character in menstrual shows in the US and written

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Speaker 1: jump Jump, Jump, Jim Crow.

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Speaker 2: Take a little twirl and around you go wide and

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Speaker 2: white your talk as a camomen you jump.

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Speaker 1: Tim Rice wasn't the first person to dawn blackface and

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Speaker 1: do a little demeaning song and dance, but he did

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Speaker 1: popularize the act shows where white audiences watched white men

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Speaker 1: with their faces painted black with burnt cork caught on

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Speaker 1: like wildfire. The performers got up on stage literally acted

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Speaker 1: a full pretended to be cowardly and cow towing, and

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Speaker 1: put on an exaggerated dialect. White audiences laughed, rinse, repeat all.

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Speaker 1: This was happening in the South and Northeast United States

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Speaker 1: by the early eighteen thirties, while black people were still

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Speaker 1: enslaved and the Civil War wasn't yet on the horizon.

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Speaker 1: These shows were part of the entertainment industry. Sure, but

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Speaker 1: I don't want to make it seem like it was

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Speaker 1: just for funzies. Performers like Rice were not sweet summer children.

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Speaker 1: They knew that they were inflating the value of the

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Speaker 1: currency of white supremacy and at the same time making

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Speaker 1: actual money. Think of seeing the sheet music, the prints,

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Speaker 1: the shows over and over and over, the mere exposure

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Speaker 1: effect that allowed white folks to sell the racial inferiority

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Speaker 1: of black folks in the neat little package of entertainment. Katie,

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Speaker 1: what do you think the average person in the US,

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Speaker 1: who pays attention to current events and has a standard

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Speaker 1: interest in American history knows about blackface.

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Speaker 2: I think they know that black people get mad whenever

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Speaker 2: they see a white person doing it. I think they

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Speaker 2: know that, like, if you get caught doing it, you

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Speaker 2: could get in trouble.

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Speaker 1: Which keeps a lot of people from doing a lot

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Speaker 1: of things solely the fear of repercussion. Yeah, without any

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Speaker 1: integrity behind it me. But yeah, several years ago, the

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Speaker 1: media was ablaze with regular folks and celebrities getting outed, fired,

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Speaker 1: and defended for wearing black face. You know that reckoning

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Speaker 1: that came along with the Black Lives Matter wave.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I know, true, I know.

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Speaker 1: But now that blackface has kind of had its time

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Speaker 1: to shine in the news cycle. Conversation about it really

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Speaker 1: mostly rears its ugly head around Halloween, when the blackface

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Speaker 1: brigade is itching to break out the oily face paint.

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Speaker 2: Folks have learned to keep their misdeeds on the low

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Speaker 2: a little better now.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Blackface was born of white folks, racism, and

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Speaker 1: tired imaginations. True, it was about how white people co

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Speaker 1: opted black stories and impersonated black folks, but it was

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Speaker 1: also about how black people subverted those narratives and constructed

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Speaker 1: their own. I've been thinking about blackface in the black

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Speaker 1: imagination because back in the mid to late eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: black performers performed in blackface. Some of those performers had

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Speaker 1: even been enslaved in the past and began making the

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Speaker 1: rounds on stage, compelled to entertain again in a different setting.

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Speaker 1: And black performers work in the early days of minstrelsy

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Speaker 1: gave them experience in theater that cleared a pathway for

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Speaker 1: many performers to come According to author Henry T. Sampson

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Speaker 1: in his book Blacks and Blackface, most of the leading

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Speaker 1: black comedians from the mid nineteenth century to the early

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Speaker 1: twentieth worked in blackface. Sampson says this about those early

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Speaker 1: black performers who wore blackface. These black singers, composers, and

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Speaker 1: dancers brought an original vitality never before seen on the

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Speaker 1: American stage. They brought a great deal that was new

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Speaker 1: in dancing, including the buck and wing, the stop time,

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Speaker 1: and the Virginia essence, which constituted many of the fundamental

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Speaker 1: steps in American jazz dancing.

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Speaker 2: Let me find out what the bucket wing is. So

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Speaker 2: I feel like I'd be good at day.

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Speaker 1: You probably would.

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Speaker 2: So what you're saying is they were our who innovated

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Speaker 2: and who were worthy of acclaim that they only really

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Speaker 2: got from white audience based on the performer's ability to

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Speaker 2: make them laugh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they were busting their chops working to gain skills

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Speaker 1: in the craft. But to white audiences there were still

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Speaker 1: like specimens in a menagerie, or maybe like seeing white

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Speaker 1: folks performing black face was like seeing lions in a

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Speaker 1: zoo in the city, and then seeing black folks performing

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Speaker 1: black face was like seeing lions with their pride in

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Speaker 1: the savannahs. White performers were making more money than the

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Speaker 1: black ones, and there were still way more white folks

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Speaker 1: and black face than there were black folks. But black

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Speaker 1: folks were limited in the jobs they could get that

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Speaker 1: would make them decent money, and this was one option.

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Speaker 1: So in this history, black people weren't just this like

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Speaker 1: invisible force, providing fodder for a white ridicule propelling white

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Speaker 1: folks to new theatrical heights. They weren't these powerless, silent

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Speaker 1: entities relegated to tucking their tail between their legs as

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Speaker 1: they took a psychological beating. The history of blackface is

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Speaker 1: not just about the unrestrained power of white people to

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Speaker 1: tell stories, i e. Lies about black people's lives. As

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Speaker 1: we set back with our arms folded. Black folks were

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Speaker 1: the storytellers too. Watch this pawn shot foot and nothing

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Speaker 1: in there with some guitars and banjos and saxophone and

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Speaker 1: guitars and van Jules and saxophones, stealable.

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Speaker 2: What are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: The warning then started to watch them on tell you

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Speaker 1: more after the break. Billy Carsands, Dewey Pig, Meat, Markham,

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Speaker 1: John Mason, flornoy E Miller, Bert Williams. There were a

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Speaker 1: bunch of black performers who did blackface. Some of them

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Speaker 1: figured they might as well get a book, some experience

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Speaker 1: and some recognition by blacking up and capitalizing on the

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Speaker 1: spectacle that white folks had created. Actor and composer Eddie

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Speaker 1: Green worked in film and on radio shows like Amos

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Speaker 1: and Andy and Duffy's Tavern. He sometimes were a blackface

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Speaker 1: and a black post. He wrote. His daughter, Elva Diane Green,

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Speaker 1: said this, the book I have written about my father

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Speaker 1: has been a hard seale to some blacks today because

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Speaker 1: of the era in which my father lived. Some people

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Speaker 1: do not see and do not want to see the

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Speaker 1: relevance of yesterday's all black cast movies or old time

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Speaker 1: radio or vaudeville as it applies to progress. As for myself,

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Speaker 1: I understand seeing my father and blackface has taken some

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Speaker 1: getting used to. It's still kind of embarrassing to admit

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Speaker 1: my father was a blackface comedian. And if I am embarrassed,

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Speaker 1: what do I expect from others?

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Speaker 2: So everyone wasn't really writing for it at the time either.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing you.

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Speaker 1: Would guess correct, because some artists talked about how they

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Speaker 1: would take no part in it, how it was low

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Speaker 1: tier performance, and some critics said that black folks doing

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Speaker 1: blackface was an affront to the race working backward. But

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Speaker 1: take Bert Williams and George Walker.

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Speaker 2: Good Morning, Going hung by Williams Walker.

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Speaker 1: They were a comedy team that did really well for themselves.

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Speaker 1: They performed in blackface and called their duo the two real.

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Speaker 2: Coons Gangay, that's me and you girl.

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Speaker 1: Walker said this about their act. We thought that as

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Speaker 1: there seemed to be a great demand for black faces

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Speaker 1: on the stage, we would do all we could to

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Speaker 1: get what we felt belonged to us by the law

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Speaker 1: of nature, and they profess to be pro black child.

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Speaker 1: Walker also said this, over and behind all the money

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Speaker 1: and prestige which move Williams and Walker is a love

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Speaker 1: for the race, because we feel that, in a degree

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Speaker 1: we represent the race in every hair's breadth of achievement.

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Speaker 1: We make it's to its credit. For first, last and

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Speaker 1: all the time, we are Negroes. And Bert Williams was

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Speaker 1: a pioneering entertainer and super successful comedian. The Silent Lost

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Speaker 1: film Dark Town Jubilee Darren Williams marked one of the

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Speaker 1: earliest appearances of a black comedian in cinema. His work

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Speaker 1: poked fun at white caricatures of black people. He was

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Speaker 1: not simply an agent of white supremacy. So I think

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Speaker 1: the element of black performers doing blackface, it wasn't even

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Speaker 1: just about them wearing blackface too, Like they did blackface

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Speaker 1: through audio work as well, in terms of the types

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Speaker 1: of dialect that they would put on. They did blackface

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Speaker 1: on the stage, and once the screen came around, they

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Speaker 1: would do it on the screen as well. But performing

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Speaker 1: a blackface the interesting thing about it is that they

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Speaker 1: were still performers who were working on their craft, who

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Speaker 1: were interested in getting better at acting, and they chose

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Speaker 1: blackface as the avenue for them to do so it

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Speaker 1: was a more accessible avenue for them to be able

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Speaker 1: to get work. So they were like, Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: my lane. This is a kind of entertainment that's popular

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Speaker 1: right now, and it's something that I can use to

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Speaker 1: get my skills up. And at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: their work was foundational in terms of early black theater

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Speaker 1: instead of foundation for future actors and for future entertainers

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Speaker 1: to be able to get their feet in the door

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Speaker 1: as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder like if they felt like typecasted ever,

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Speaker 2: Like you start doing black face hoping that you can

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Speaker 2: not do that anymore, and you can just be an

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Speaker 2: actor on your own merits. It kind of reminds me

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Speaker 2: of how this conversation about black men in Hollywood having

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Speaker 2: to wear a dress.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, they make you wear a dress.

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Speaker 2: And they won't let you move on if you don't

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Speaker 2: like wear a dress first, or you get typecasted, you're

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Speaker 2: like always in a dress. People who refuse to address

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Speaker 2: all the conversations that go on with that emasculation of

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Speaker 2: black men and the masculinization of black women. And it

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Speaker 2: does seem like it is more accessible route for people,

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Speaker 2: like you see people doing sketch comedies for free on

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Speaker 2: YouTube and TikTok. There's just like so many like media

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Speaker 2: Big Woman's House where the joke is a, oh, there's

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Speaker 2: a man in address here. So I wonder if was

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Speaker 2: it a similar industry that was set up. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: just do this for a minute and then I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: get out and put it on his black face, and

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Speaker 2: then I'm gonna be a real actor. I'm gonna be

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Speaker 2: really on the stage perfecting my craft. Or did they

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Speaker 2: get stuck in that or did they prefer that and

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Speaker 2: not want to leave.

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Speaker 1: I think that a lot of them would have said

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't have preferred it, but that it was an

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Speaker 1: avenue for them. But there were people, and I think

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Speaker 1: it was Bert Williams. Please correct me if I'm wrong

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Speaker 1: anybody who knows, but Bert Williams who said something about

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Speaker 1: I kind of would rather do blackface or do this

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Speaker 1: kind of performance in front of why audiences because the

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Speaker 1: opportunities that were available to him within black performance weren't

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Speaker 1: as like lucrative, or there weren't as many of them.

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Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people ended up doing

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Speaker 1: it throughout the entire course of their career. And then

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Speaker 1: there were some entertainers who didn't do it for the

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Speaker 1: entire course of their career, Like there were some entertainers

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Speaker 1: who moved on to doing radio work after they did

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Speaker 1: scream work, like Eddie Green I think was one of

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Speaker 1: those entertainers. I think it was kind of hard to

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Speaker 1: make that decision, like we would think about it today,

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Speaker 1: like how long am I going to be doing this

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Speaker 1: thing until I move on to something else. I do

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Speaker 1: think in a way, for people who work in the

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Speaker 1: arts and entertainment, it's kind of a privilege that we

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Speaker 1: have in contemporary times to be able to think how

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Speaker 1: we're going to move on when for them it was like,

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Speaker 1: this is what I can see for now, and this

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Speaker 1: is what I know is working for me, and this

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Speaker 1: is how I'm choosing to move in the industry that

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Speaker 1: I'm in. And the question was more of how am

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Speaker 1: I going to have integrity about the work that I

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Speaker 1: do and continue to gain skills and then hopefully maybe

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Speaker 1: one day in the future, even if I'm not creating

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Speaker 1: a path for myself to move differently, then I'm creating

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Speaker 1: a path for someone else to move differently.

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Speaker 2: So when a black person is doing black face, where

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Speaker 2: they like still doing like the exaggerated caricature of what

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Speaker 2: like a black person is, was it like similar themes

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Speaker 2: as when a white person did it.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, they were still hamming it up. They were

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Speaker 1: still blacking it up. They were still using that exaggerated dialect.

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Speaker 1: They were still enacting the character of that foolish, naive,

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Speaker 1: bumbling black person.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting you said that the guy Bert said he

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Speaker 2: likes doing it in front of white audiences because it

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Speaker 2: gets he gets paid more. I do think we see

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Speaker 2: that not like literal black face, but like the exaggerated

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Speaker 2: caricature of black people and black people participating that for

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Speaker 2: white audiences because it is like good money at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the other interesting thing to think

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Speaker 1: about in this conversation is how, yes, the black people

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Speaker 1: who were doing black face were still entertainers, There were

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Speaker 1: still gathering their skills, and they still set a foundation

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Speaker 1: for people who were to come. There's also an argument

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Speaker 1: that in doing that, they were creating more lanes for

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Speaker 1: black culture to make its way into mainstream popular culture

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Speaker 1: because menstreal shows were a popular form of entertainment. It

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Speaker 1: was a way that black music was able to be

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Speaker 1: put on a stage, and black entertainment was able to

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Speaker 1: be put on a stage before a lot of different

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Speaker 1: kinds of audiences because it wasn't just white audiences who

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Speaker 1: were watching black face performances either, it was also black audiences.

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Speaker 1: And there's also much ado that scholars have made over

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Speaker 1: what that actually meant for black people to enjoy and

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Speaker 1: laugh at and see white and black performers. What is

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Speaker 1: some of that I do some of that ADU is like, okay,

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Speaker 1: a kind of like psychoanalyzing of why a black person

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Speaker 1: would laugh at their own image being demean So, like,

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Speaker 1: what does it mean for black people to sit in

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Speaker 1: front of an audience and see this portrayal of them

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Speaker 1: that they know isn't true, but they're enjoying it.

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Speaker 2: Wow, this is literally nothing new in the sun. Because

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Speaker 2: I feel like people say that now, like how could

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Speaker 2: you laugh at all the share we laugh at? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: how can you laugh at media? How could you laugh

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Speaker 2: at insert whatever, like foolish character you see that's black?

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Speaker 1: Like this is a bad representation for the race, right,

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Speaker 1: but like people like it, And it wasn't even like

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Speaker 1: that back then too, Like people like Williams M. Walker

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Speaker 1: were like, I'm doing a good job for my race.

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Speaker 1: And there's a comment that I don't know the origin

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Speaker 1: of the comment, but it said that Booker T. Washington

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Speaker 1: said that he was a fine man of the race

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Speaker 1: is basically what his comment was. Er Williams was, yeah,

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Speaker 1: which was funny to me, Like he was one of

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Speaker 1: the best representatives of the race. He did a really

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Speaker 1: good job at ving ane grow. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I feel like the representation of it all, like that's

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Speaker 2: kind of like the peak that people say.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, you're.

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Speaker 2: Getting representation, Like black people are on screen, black people

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Speaker 2: are on stage, black people are on the radio. This

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Speaker 2: is representation, like you should be happy. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: like a cyclical thing that we see, like kind of

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Speaker 2: no matter what iteration or whatever timeline we're in, or

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Speaker 2: whatever medium or whatever genre is popular that we're debating,

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Speaker 2: it's like, it's representation.

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Speaker 1: The end of the day, it's representation. Yeah, And the

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Speaker 1: comment held a little bit more weight back then in

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, late eighteen hundreds, because it was

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Speaker 1: less representation exactly. There weren't that many people there so

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Speaker 1: to say, like, you represented us. Fine. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like it's kind of one of those things we had

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Speaker 1: to get through to get to where we are today,

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Speaker 1: to where we can't complain about it, I suppose. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about the idea of the commercial viability

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Speaker 1: and success of the work that black people in blackface

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Speaker 1: were doing, and how it made it so that black

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Speaker 1: people were able to enter the mainstream. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's kind of a complicated conversation because what is the

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Speaker 1: value of black culture being in the mainstream and other

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Speaker 1: people being able to co opt it, to be able

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Speaker 1: to use it as they please, to be able to

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Speaker 1: make their own determinations over it. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: has a very straightforward answer, like, I definitely definitely acknowledge

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Speaker 1: the value of how black people did whatever was available

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Speaker 1: to them back then to be able to work on

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Speaker 1: their own art and then share and spread that art

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Speaker 1: and their love for it and create those foundations and

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Speaker 1: open those doors for future people. But I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's a wholly positive thing, like, not one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: to say that this made black people's culture be able

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Speaker 1: to be mainstreamed commercial viability basically is not the end all,

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Speaker 1: be all great thing. I think. Yeah, I agree, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we got to go to a break, but we'll see

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Speaker 1: you again soon. In the conversations that we have about

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Speaker 1: the history of black face today, we're really trying to

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Speaker 1: get people who aren't black to just realize how bad

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Speaker 1: it is, and then we tell them to just not

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Speaker 1: do it or reprimand them for doing it. In the

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Speaker 1: flattening of history that we have to do to course correct,

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Speaker 1: I can't shake the feeling that we end up erasing

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Speaker 1: black folk's presence in that narrative. Black folks stories, black

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Speaker 1: folks control of their own narratives. I don't want us

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Speaker 1: to forget about their achievements, their art, and the foundation

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Speaker 1: that they laid. So I think in all of these

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Speaker 1: conversations that we have when these instances of black face

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Speaker 1: pop up in the media, kind of like you said earlier,

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Speaker 1: white people don't do it again. And it's a lot

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Speaker 1: of black people and quote unquote allies who are the

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Speaker 1: ones who are saying this about these instances. And I

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Speaker 1: do think that that flatten the history of blackface, like

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Speaker 1: there's a big batty in this situation, and it just

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Speaker 1: condenses the nuance of the conversations around blackface, because the

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Speaker 1: history of black people doing blackface is a long one,

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Speaker 1: and it's very evident that the impact that blackface had

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Speaker 1: on the entertainment industry in the United States is one

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Speaker 1: that is huge and it's long lasting. So I just

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Speaker 1: think we need to talk more about the complexity of

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Speaker 1: blackface and about the roles that black people had as

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Speaker 1: storytellers and as artists within that realm, and that they

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Speaker 1: weren't just these invisible, silent characters who are to the

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Speaker 1: side that white people were enacting their violence upon. That

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Speaker 1: there was agency that some of these artists had, that

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Speaker 1: they did have thoughts and feelings that they shared about

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Speaker 1: people who are about the about black face in general.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think it's important to acknowledge the black

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Speaker 2: people's agency, but I will say every time one of

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Speaker 2: these instances happens in the news, I kind of do

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Speaker 2: not want to hear about the nuance about black face,

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Speaker 2: about black people doing it, because I can see it

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Speaker 2: quickly devolving into like how when black people talk about

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Speaker 2: slavery and then white people's first thing is like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: sold jass I was in slavery. There was a black

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Speaker 2: plantation on us too, so it was just like to

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Speaker 2: avoid all that. I don't think MSNBC should be like

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Speaker 2: expousing all the black black face actors, just because I

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Speaker 2: think it will just give white people too much length

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Speaker 2: to continue to do it basically like, well, actually, I

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Speaker 2: am participating in a long tradition, and you know they

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Speaker 2: had agency and I have agency, so fucky, I can

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Speaker 2: definitely see that happening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you. I wouldn't want it to

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Speaker 1: be like here there is there that rebuttal and oh

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00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: my goodness, that conversation around black people sell slaves too

422
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: is a whole thing. But I also think it's related

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Speaker 1: to like how there are so many people today who

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Speaker 1: feel like, well, racism doesn't present itself in the same

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Speaker 1: ways that it used to present itself, So it no

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Speaker 1: longer exists and we shouldn't be talking about it anymore.

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Speaker 1: I just I don't think that it should be presented

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Speaker 1: necessarily at the same time we're talking about these But

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Speaker 1: I think in general, just having a larger view of

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Speaker 1: blackface and how it operated is beneficial.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because like I think now, when you say black face,

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Speaker 2: it's seen is like wholly negative, yes, wholly just like

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Speaker 2: bad bad. This is what white people did to us,

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Speaker 2: and they're making fun of us. But you know, like

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Speaker 2: you said, black people did it too, and they chose

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00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: to do it like they weren't.

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Speaker 1: Being forced to Well.

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Speaker 2: I guess capitalism. Yeah, capitalism will force you to do

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00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: a lot of strange things.

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00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: It sure will. And I think force is an interesting

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00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: word to use, actually, because that did that was a

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00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: way that some people viewed black people's work and doing

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00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: blackface minstrreulcy, like they were forced to do it, like coerced.

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00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: They were coerced. Yeah, And I think a better word

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00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: is just compelled sometimes because of things like capitalism, racism,

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00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: their economic status, whatever their social status was at the time,

447
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: having a family, all of those things could have made

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00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: a person more compelled and compelled to the point where

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00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: they had to do it to be able to survive.

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00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: There's a difference between I think being four to and

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00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: compel to, but sometimes that that line is pretty thin.

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00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: Yeah and blurry, yeah and blurry. So all this said,

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00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: blackface has its hooks in American culture and it's not

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00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: so easily shaken.

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00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: It's time for role credits, the segment where we give

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00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: credit to a person, place, or thing we encountered during

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00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 2: the week. Ease, who are what would you like to

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00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 2: give credit to?

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00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: This week? I want to give credit to black historians.

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00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: It is the beginning of Black History Month, and there

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00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: is a lot of a do around Black history this month,

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00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: of course in the United States specifically, so I just

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00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: wanted to shout out black historians for all the work

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00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: that they do digging through the archives, being able to

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00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: dig up the stories so we can even share them

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00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: through this month. Doing the good work of highlighting the

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00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: things that need to be highlighted throughout the year and

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00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: every year. It's really important work and a lot of

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00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: the stories that we share on this show that I

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00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: care about all of the people that we learn about

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00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: when be possible without the work of black historians.

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00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: I'm sort of like, kind of related, what is it?

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00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 2: So I don't think this person would call themselves a historian,

474
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,239
Speaker 2: but they will call themselves a journalist. But there's this

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00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: book out called Madness, which is about a segregated like

476
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: mental institution in Crownsville, Maryland, and the writer Antonia Hilton,

477
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: is who I would like to give credit to you.

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00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: This week I went to see her at the Carter

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00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: Center in Atlanta, and it was like a really good

480
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 2: book talk, Like she's a debut author and it was

481
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: just like a masterclass on how you do a book talk.

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00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: I've like I was blown away truly, And she's a reporter,

483
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: so she's really good at speaking. Like I said, it's

484
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: she's her first book. She's a debut author, so she

485
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 2: still had that like excitement of like people coming to

486
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: see her, Like you know how some people will be

487
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: like here here, Nigadam when they sign in your book.

488
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 2: But she was like very happy that everyone was there,

489
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 2: like very personable, told great stories. And what I like

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00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: about nonfiction books and nonfiction book talks is you can't

491
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: spoil the book, Like the more you talk about it

492
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: the more I want to read it more, because of

493
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: course you can't like get every detail into your hour

494
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: and a half talk. So yeah, I'd like to give

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00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: credit to Antonia Hilton. She has madness out in the

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00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: world right now. It's a really important story that not

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00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: a lot of people were looking at. And yeah, I

498
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: think it has a potential to shake some shit up.

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00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 2: And I think that's what good writing does, like when

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00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 2: you're uncovering history and putting stuff on the forefront that

501
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: a lot of people were trying to hide. And with that,

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00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: we will see you next week.

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Speaker 1: Bye y'all. Bye. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio

504
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves

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00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by

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00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram at on Theme Show.

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00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: You can also send us an email at hello at

508
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Speaker 1: on Theme dot Show. Head to on Theme dot Show

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