1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. On July fourteenth, SAG AFTRA, 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: better known as the Screen Actors Guild, joined the picket lines, 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: where members of the Writers' Guild of America have been 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: striking since early May. 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: The entire business model has been changed by streaming digital AI. 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 2: This is a moment of history, that is a moment 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: of truth. If we don't stand toall right now, we 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: are all going to be in trouble. We are all 10 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: going to be in jeopardy of being replaced by machines 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 2: and big business. Who gives more about Wall Street than 12 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 2: you and your family. 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: That's Actor and Screen Actors Guild President fran Drescher announcing 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: the SAG strike. This action follows contentious negotiations over contracts 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: with the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers, a 16 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: collection of film studios, TV networks and streamers like Netflix, Hulu, Paramount, Sony, 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: and Warner Brothers Discovery. The issues in dispute include everything 18 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: from dwindling payments in the age of streaming to the 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: unsettling reality that artificial intelligence may soon render human writers 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: and actors unnecessary. Many have called this particular moment existential. 21 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: One person who is deeply involved in this issue and 22 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: has been ringing the alarm for some time is actor, writer, director, 23 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: and producer Justine Bateman. Bateman is perhaps best known for 24 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: her work on family ties and Satisfaction, but she also 25 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: received her degree in computer science from UCLA in twenty sixteen. 26 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: As someone involved in so many aspects of filmmaking, I 27 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: wanted to know if Eateman felt that the guilds were 28 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: up to the task of ensuring their future amidst the 29 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: AI proliferation. 30 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 3: Yes, actually, yeah, And I'll tell you why. So if 31 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 3: we go back even further to nineteen eighty, which I 32 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 3: think was the last time SAG was on strike, they 33 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 3: were asking for a piece of all the unions were 34 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 3: a piece of the home video market VCR right tapes. 35 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 3: We didn't even have DVDs yet, and the quote from 36 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 3: AMPTP was we don't even know if there's any money 37 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 3: in that. Well we saw what happened with that. That 38 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 3: became the financial booy for the entire industry having DVD sales. 39 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 3: Then you go to two thousand and seven, two thousand 40 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 3: and eight, when I was on the SAG board of 41 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 3: Directors and on the negotiating committee, and they said to 42 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 3: all the unions, when we were asking for me made 43 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: for new media percentages, residuals so forth, they said the 44 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 3: same thing, Well, we don't even know if there's any 45 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 3: money in the Internet. 46 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: It's so unproven. 47 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 3: It's the wild wild West, which is such a tired 48 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 3: sort of saying. And I think during the WGA strike 49 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 3: back then they released Hulu, which was all of these 50 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 3: ampt a lot of not all of them, but a 51 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 3: lot of these AMPTP companies coming together and creating a 52 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 3: video platform. I mean, you know, these companies don't get 53 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 3: together to do anything, so they must have been extremely 54 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 3: convinced that it was going to be very lucrative and 55 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 3: eliminated a lot of the overhead that's necessary for broadcast 56 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 3: television and theater release. So it's very telling then as 57 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: far as AI goes, that when the WGA asked for 58 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 3: protections on that, they didn't even say what they'd said before, 59 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: which could have been we don't know that there's any 60 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 3: money in AI. They just said, we're not talking about it, 61 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 3: which says to me they are writing scripts of the 62 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 3: AI already and have been for a while. 63 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: Of course I'm a thousand percent convinced that they have 64 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: that machine churning away. And I always remember when they say, well, 65 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: we don't know if there's any money in there. We 66 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: don't really have any money in that that we know of. 67 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: And what they're saying now is, well, we don't have 68 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: any money there for you had to depend that little phase, 69 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: then we don't have any money for you. For the 70 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: actors we've seen over the last many years. And this 71 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: is my opinion, it's purely an opinion, an analysis that 72 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: what you see now is the complete wall to wall 73 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: wigitizing of the creative industries. Men and women who are 74 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: captain corporations that want to take all the risk out 75 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: of movie making and television production. And of course there's 76 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: no such thing as a risk free movie business. Guessing 77 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: what an audience might want to watch, and now they've 78 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: gotten this down with all their Marvel universe, but guessing 79 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: what an audience might want to watch eighteen months from 80 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: now is a lot of luck in some art. But 81 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: these are corporations that want to have the risk free 82 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: entertainment industry, which is just absurd. You're involved in with 83 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: the union with SAG when did that begin and why. 84 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 3: Well, I'm not. I haven't acted for many, many years. 85 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 3: It's not a focus of mine. Just been writing, directing 86 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 3: and producing. So I'm more involved actually in the WGA, 87 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 3: WGA and the DGA now like I'm on the Western 88 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 3: the Director's Western Council at the DGA, and for a 89 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: long time just been, you know, a great admirer of 90 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 3: the WGA and the DGA and involved in the WA. 91 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 3: But of course I have a big love for SAG 92 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: and because of my relationships with them, they had asked 93 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 3: me to come in to their day with the AMPTP 94 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 3: in these negotiations, the day that dealt with AI and 95 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 3: say a few things and I you know, you can't 96 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: talk about what was talked about in there, but I 97 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 3: will say that Duncan Crabtree Ireland, the National Director and 98 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 3: the lead negotiator for SAG, has extremely good handle on 99 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: what needs to happen for actors protection and not just 100 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 3: for protection of actors who are working now and who 101 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 3: will work in you know, they have their future work 102 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 3: as well, but to protect the actors from the past. 103 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: And this is true too for the DGA and WGA. 104 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 3: And maybe it's something that has to be done through legislation, 105 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 3: but to protect it's our responsibility now. Like these, these 106 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 3: actors and writers and directors in the past, they did 107 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: work within the unions to establish rules for us so 108 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: that we could make a living at this and have 109 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 3: pensions and healthcare and all of this, and they sacrifice 110 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 3: for that. And I feel like now it's time for 111 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 3: us to in addition to what we need to do 112 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 3: to protect members, now we need to protect their work 113 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 3: because now the technology exists to go back and mess 114 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 3: around with everything. You know, the technology isn't there exactly 115 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 3: to just generate another version of Casablanca, but we're on 116 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 3: the precipice of that, or going back to say some 117 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 3: you know, the mash TV series and making another season 118 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 3: out of what was, you know, just feeding in all 119 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 3: the seasons and making another season, that kind of thing. 120 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 3: And then there's other things like just doing episodes that 121 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 3: are in line with somebody's viewing history and just throwing 122 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: together something that is an amalgamation, a distilling of an 123 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: amalgamation of all of our past work. And that's what 124 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 3: I find so offensive and heinous. It's not that AI 125 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 3: is now generating new stuff, just it's a new technology, 126 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 3: and it's generating new stuff on its own. It's doing 127 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 3: it only because it's been fed in our old work. 128 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: That's what I find so horrible about it. 129 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: Do you think that people who have licensed, you know, 130 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: the most handy reference I have as James Earl Jones 131 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: licensing his voice to the Star Wars board of directors 132 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: there for his voice as Darth Vader to live on 133 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: beyond his death. Is that a betrayal of actors? Is 134 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: that a betrayal of the union for people to buy 135 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: into the AI thing? Do you think not? 136 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 3: In my opinion. I mean, if they want to do that, fine, 137 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 3: I personally, as a filmmaker, I don't want to have 138 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: anything to do with it because it's the polar opposite 139 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 3: direction of where I want to go with my work. 140 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 3: I want to do something like really, really new if 141 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 3: I can, you know, stand on the shoulders of all 142 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 3: the filmmakers that I love, and you know, move the 143 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: ball down the field. I mean, look, the last ten 144 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 3: to fifteen years, with some exceptions, all we've been doing 145 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 3: is a regurgitation of the past. I mean, tell me 146 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 3: what pop culture is right now. It is the pop 147 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 3: culture of the twentieth century. 148 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: Period. 149 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: There's nothing new in the last twenty years with some 150 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 3: exccepts as far as a genre goes of music of movies. 151 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 3: I mean, Alec, you can think I could name any 152 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: decade in the twentieth century and you could tell me 153 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 3: something that went on in music, something went on and film, 154 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 3: something went on in fine art or dance or whatever, 155 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 3: and it's just not happening anymore because tech and I 156 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 3: love tech, I have a computer science degree, but it 157 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 3: has created this is something you want to avoid in coding, 158 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 3: which is an infinite loop. We just can't the code 159 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 3: can't get out of this loop. It's in what tech 160 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 3: has created. In pop culture and in the arts is 161 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 3: an infinite loop where we just completely we regurgitate, regurgitate, 162 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 3: regurgitate what's happened before us. And the studio has got 163 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 3: on board with that because they're scared financially and trying 164 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 3: to you know, just take ips that everybody's familiar with 165 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 3: so they can skip the marketing period. They need to 166 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: get people to understand what their new. 167 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: Project is about. 168 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 3: And now AI is going to automate all of that. 169 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I will watch a streaming series, not because 170 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: I have any desire to watch that show, but I'm 171 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: just curious what's selling? What are people watching most of 172 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: the shows I see. The other impact of this, you know, 173 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: money at all costs money over creativity is the bloating 174 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: of these episodes. Meaning the show is really six episodes, 175 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: but they got to do eight because they don't get 176 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: into profit till after five. There's so much bloating of 177 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: this stuff. Content way was to get to their numbers. Now, 178 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: one thing for our audience, I would like to explain 179 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: your take, maybe on the distinction as to the three unions, 180 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: the WGA, the DGA, and SAG, as to why the 181 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 1: pattern seems to be that the DGA settles almost immediately, 182 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: the DGA settles quickly, and I've had people explain to 183 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: me their opinion as to why a SAG is kind 184 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 1: of down the middle, and the WGA would probably strike 185 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: you know, for a year if they could. They're always 186 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: the slowest too. Does that seem like a fair assessment 187 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 1: to you? 188 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 3: You know, I haven't been within the negotiating process of 189 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 3: DGA or WGA, but I will say this, one way 190 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 3: to characterize each one of the unions is to think 191 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: about their duties on a set. 192 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: The director is. 193 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 3: Telling everybody this is how it's going to be, and 194 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: the directors come in, they come in for their prep, 195 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 3: and then they do the shoot, and then they have 196 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 3: their post and that's pretty much it. The writer has 197 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 3: had to work with the studios, sometimes for a long 198 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 3: period of time before the director is stepping in, and 199 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 3: there's a lot of beating up of the writers by 200 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 3: the studios sometimes. In fact, in the streaming world, I 201 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 3: know somebody who's a showrunner, and I've heard this from 202 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 3: a couple of showrunners. The note they get most frequently 203 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 3: is it's not second screen enough, meaning the viewer's laptop 204 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 3: or the viewers right, hilarious, Right, the viewer's laptop or 205 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: the viewer's phone is primary screen, first screen, and don't 206 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 3: do anything in the show that's going to distract the 207 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 3: viewer because then they might go, oh, wait, what just happened, 208 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 3: and then go turn it off. They want it on 209 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 3: all the time, like visual music, as somebody quoted once. 210 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: So you got that. 211 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 3: And then the actors on a set are pretty much 212 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 3: showing up. They've prepared their work, but they're like tell 213 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 3: me where to go and where to stand and what 214 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 3: to do, and then you know, I'm going to bring 215 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 3: some emotion into it. So if you think of it 216 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 3: that way, and I don't mean that to be disparaging 217 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 3: in any way whatsoever to any of those positions, but 218 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 3: then it gives you an inkling as to how the 219 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 3: behavior of the negotiating committees is possibly conducted. It's an 220 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: interesting way to kind of color it. 221 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: I think, Well, someone said to me that the that 222 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: the DGA settles quicker is because they have more overlapping 223 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: interests with the producers than the other two unions. 224 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 4: Do. 225 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: I think the guy that's the head of the DGA 226 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: just announced he said we did better that we've ever done, 227 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: or he had some very positive comment about what happened. 228 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: But my point is this, there's three unions and I 229 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: don't know why they can't come together and negotiate together 230 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: and really stick together as one business. I mean, I 231 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: know that's fanciful. They came to me to run for 232 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: president of SAG before Fran ran and they said, going 233 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: into this negotiation, we need someone who is as bold, 234 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: you know, forceful, whatever, because they were saying this's gonna 235 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: be a tough negotiation. It's gonna be one of the 236 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: toughest negotiations. And I said, well, I think that the 237 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: head of SAG should live in La, just in the 238 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: time zone. 239 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: Thing. 240 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: I got seven children. You think I'm gonna be on 241 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: conference calls till nine or ten o'clock at night in La, 242 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: I said, I mean, I live in New York, and 243 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm not leaving New York. And after a back and 244 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: forth with a small handful of peace, they got it, 245 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: and they moved on and they got frien But I 246 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: was very tempted. But one thing I kept saying to 247 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: them was I said, what do you think is the 248 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: likelihood that we can join forces not dilute our independence, 249 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: our sovereignty, our specific missions. But why can't we negotiate 250 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: these contracts together? And they just thought that that was 251 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: a very quixotic idea, that that was just impossible. Do 252 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,239 Speaker 1: you agree that's impossible? 253 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 3: No, I mean I am in agreement with you. I mean, 254 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 3: we're not even competitive with each other, Like the writers 255 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 3: are not competing against the directors, are not competing against 256 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 3: the actors and so forth for jobs, And yet all 257 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 3: the studios are competing with each other, in direct competition 258 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 3: with each other. So if they can get together as 259 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: a group and negotiate against us, then I agree we 260 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 3: should be able to band together and negotiate against them. 261 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 3: I would hope for that too. I don't know all 262 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: the reasons why it doesn't occur, but I will say 263 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 3: that I believe on the AI front, that's a topic 264 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 3: that we all have in common, and whatever gains one 265 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 3: one union gets will benefit the other. And whatever gains 266 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 3: one union makes on the legislative end with the government 267 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 3: will be a gain for everyone else in the business. 268 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 3: But what you said earlier about you know, having their 269 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 3: eye firmly on the money, I mean it's always been 270 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: a component of the business, of course. But when the streamers, 271 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 3: these tech companies decided to get into the tech platform 272 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 3: business and needed stuff to put on their shelves, and 273 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 3: their stuff was our work, which they refer to as content, 274 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 3: which I find chili so dismissive. Yeah, and so offensive 275 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 3: and so dismissive and so confused about the work that 276 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: we do. When they came onto the scene as tech companies, 277 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 3: they were seen by Wall Street as tech companies, and 278 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: they followed the tech company pattern of success quote unquote, 279 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 3: which is ramp it up, scale it as much as 280 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 3: you can, and then get out sell it for a 281 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 3: billion dollars, three billion dollars whatever you can do. Well, 282 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 3: now they're not quite doing that, and they've also saturated 283 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 3: the market to some extent of you know, how far 284 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 3: they can scale. And that's when we had this Netflix 285 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 3: correction on Wall Street. That's when, because that was Wall 286 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 3: Street going as a wait a minute, you guys have 287 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 3: fairly saturated the market, at least domestically, and so we 288 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 3: can't look at you as a tech company anymore because 289 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 3: you're not doing that scaling anymore. So we're just going 290 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 3: to look at you as a media company, and a 291 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 3: media company has to show profit. 292 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: WGA, DGA and SAG member Justine Bateman. If you want 293 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: to hear more from bold female directors working to change 294 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: their industry, check out our episode with Sarah Polly. 295 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 4: I think that I hugely benefited from this very unusual 296 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 4: experience i'd had, which is that I'd worked with a 297 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 4: few female filmmakers as a young actor, which was a 298 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 4: really big deal then, like to have worked with Catherine Bigelow, 299 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 4: to have worked with Isabel Quichet, to have these models, 300 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 4: and as soon as I expressed the slightest interest in directing, 301 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: they were just like, Okay, you're a dog with a bone. 302 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 4: Don't let the bone go. Everyone's going to try to 303 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 4: take away from me. I remember Katherine Bigelow is like this, 304 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 4: everyone will try to take the bone away from you. 305 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 4: Hold on to the bone. 306 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: To hear more of Talier Schlanger's conversation with Sarah Polly, 307 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 1: go to Here's Thething dot Org. After the break, Justine 308 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: Bateman shares her vision of the potentially frightening future for 309 00:17:52,520 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: actors now that AI is getting stronger every day. I'm 310 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. After 311 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: decades of work in television and film, Justine Bateman pivoted 312 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: from acting to writing and directing her own films, including Violet, 313 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: starring Olivia Munn and Justin Throw. As someone who has 314 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: worked tirelessly on both sides of the camera, I was 315 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: curious how she found the business has changed in her lifetime. 316 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 3: I'll tell you what's really sad for me. So as 317 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: a filmmaker, I'm taking meetings as a director and a 318 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 3: writer with development executives and the development executives that I've 319 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 3: met that are some of these studios who you talked 320 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 3: to them. And one of the things really telling for 321 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,479 Speaker 3: me is I asked him what's your favorite film? And 322 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 3: sometimes I'll give an answer and I'll go like, oh, 323 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 3: this person knows what's going on. I talk a little 324 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 3: bit more with them, and then I just go, hey, 325 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 3: what kind of films do you want to make? And 326 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 3: they're like, hey, listen, I would love to do And 327 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 3: maybe this is blowing smoke up my ass, but I'd 328 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 3: love to do this film that you just pitched me. 329 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 3: That kind of thing is exactly the type of thing 330 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 3: I want to do. But I can't because I've been 331 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 3: tasked to make six genre films for fill in the 332 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 3: blank Streamer and I'm like, oh, that sucks. Like that's 333 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 3: what you're bound to do now, even though you love 334 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: film and you sound like a real development executive. They're like, yeah, 335 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 3: that's what I have to do. So if you have 336 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 3: any action film and you just hear the life coming 337 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 3: out of their voice when they say this, So if 338 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 3: you have any action films or horror or you know, 339 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 3: not there's anything wrong with action or horror and stuff, 340 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 3: but like that's not what they want to be doing. 341 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 3: And those kinds of films are fine, but not when 342 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 3: they're ninety percent of what's out there. It's ridiculous. 343 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: But you can see also that their judgment cuts both ways, 344 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: meaning they either try to hedge their bets and bring 345 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:01,959 Speaker 1: people in who are not very creative, very innovative, unique, 346 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: what have you, and they bring them in and we 347 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: we just see the same shit all the time. They 348 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: give some people all the money in the world and 349 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: maybe they shouldn't have and they don't give you know, 350 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: and this is what they hate, this is what they 351 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: want to take out of the business. 352 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 3: Talking about Seinfeld and how much money he made because 353 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 3: he created this show and stuff. I just want to 354 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 3: remind people that, first of all, it takes years, years 355 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 3: to get a financial success like that, and once you 356 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 3: get it, you may not. 357 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: Get another one. 358 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: There are some unicorns out there that have I mean, 359 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 3: you look at like Harrison Ford. I mean, I don't 360 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: know what his compensation was, but the idea that he 361 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 3: was in three massive like massive cultural impact films, that's 362 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 3: very unusual. Okay, So it takes years. So if you 363 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 3: amortize this money out, like for me, my film Violet 364 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 3: took me a year and a half. Hu every single 365 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 3: day for a year and a half to get the 366 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 3: money together to do that film, and that was a 367 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 3: low budget film. When you look like what I was 368 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 3: paid for it, if I were to like spread that 369 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 3: out over all the time it took me to get 370 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 3: that film made, it's probably ten cents an hour. And 371 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 3: the other thing is when you look at how much 372 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 3: money like anybody makes, like off a TV show or 373 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 3: something like this, I want to remind everybody how reticent 374 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 3: studios and networks are to part with money. And if 375 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 3: they're parting with that much money, then you need to 376 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 3: think about how much more money they made off of 377 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 3: that show. And they're giving Seinfeld a small amount of that, 378 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 3: so that's where a lot of the money is going. 379 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 3: And then you're talking about actors and paying paying you know, 380 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 3: one big actor and then screwing the rest of the cast, 381 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 3: which I think is not right. But think about going forward. 382 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 3: I mean, a lot of the movie stars now are 383 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 3: decidedly older, right, and they all became movie stars pretty 384 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 3: much in their twenties, right. What I can't think of 385 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 3: a clutch of movie stars that have been created now 386 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 3: in their twenties that compares to say, fifty years ago 387 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 3: or even thirty years It's different now, so even they 388 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 3: were even kind of winding that down, you know where 389 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 3: pretty soon it's just going to be, like you said. 390 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: The interchangeability is a real goal of theirs. I mean 391 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: because once someone said to me once that was really 392 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: behind AI beyond money was or linked to money, I 393 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: should say, beyond having to entice a star to do 394 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: a script. You decide what, you decide the movie you 395 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: want to do, you cast it, you make it. You 396 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: just fashion the whole thing like you're baking a cake. 397 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: And the other thing they said to me was that, 398 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: you know, the computer doesn't have to go to rehab. 399 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: The computer doesn't lock themselves in their trailer because she 400 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: broke up with her boyfriend. The computer doesn't punch the 401 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: director in the face, and some altercation over some perceived indignity, 402 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: all the behavior that now the studios and networks have 403 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: found a way to profit from, you know, exposing the 404 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: wartz and the missteps of stars. Years ago, and I 405 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: do mean a million light years ago, the press flax 406 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: for the studios did everything in their power to keep 407 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: Llela Parsons and had a Hopper and Walter Winchell and 408 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: all them kind of calmed down the star is gay 409 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: and he's married. The woman had a baby out of wedlock, 410 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: she has a black boyfriend. All that crazy crap that 411 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: they were getting attacked for. He's an alcoholic, he's in rehaber, 412 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: what have you. All the things that they would protect 413 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: you from, they tried to protect you in order to 414 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: keep your star gleaming. Now you go to work at 415 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: Warner Brothers and you walk down one hallway to do 416 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: a movie. You walk down another hallway to do a 417 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: TV show, and around the corner is TMZ that they own, 418 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: who's trying every way they can. They're making every effort 419 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: to destroy your reputation in your career. 420 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 3: Well, another way that they would destroy it is if 421 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 3: SAG doesn't get the protections they're seeking. You know, if 422 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 3: you or this is something that an actor could do 423 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 3: just voluntarily, like you were talking about the actor allowing 424 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 3: his voice to be cloned, you could get yourself scanned, 425 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 3: like if anyone's seen this twenty thirteen film called The 426 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 3: Congress where Robin Wright plays an actress who's down on 427 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 3: her luck, you know, was a big star, and she 428 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 3: allows herself to be digitally scanned, and in exchange, she 429 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 3: has to promise to never act again, because she'll dilute 430 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 3: the value of the scan if she herself acts. Oh 431 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,239 Speaker 3: my god, and then you know, regrets her decision. This 432 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 3: is at And you look at that and you go like, oh, 433 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 3: oppression that is. But that's actually based on a nineteen 434 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 3: seventy three book by Stanislaw lemb And this is I 435 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 3: mean this guy. I hadn't read him yet, you know, 436 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 3: I mean read the Philip Dick and Ray Bradbury and 437 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 3: all that. But this guy, Stanislaw lem if anyone wants 438 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 3: to read, he's so on it about AI back in 439 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 3: the seventies. It's amazing. But so if you did that right, 440 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 3: Let's say somebody had a scan of you, Alec, and 441 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 3: then your agencies, which, by the way, the talent big 442 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 3: talent agencies have divisions at their agencies that are encouraging 443 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 3: actors to get scanned, because then yes, you don't have 444 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 3: all those things you said, but you also don't have 445 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: an actor who's too tired or has a family obligation 446 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 3: or is already booked. Yeah, so imagine yourself if yeah, 447 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 3: and if your agent had a scan of you, he 448 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 3: could potentially triple and quadruple book you so that you're 449 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 3: doing three or four films at the same time. Of 450 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 3: course it's not you. 451 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: Writer director Justine Bateman. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell 452 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing 453 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 454 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: Come back. Justine Bateman shares her thoughts on the life 455 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: cycle of fame. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 456 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing, the multi hyphenit. Justine Bateman recently added 457 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: author to her resume. In twenty twenty one, she released 458 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: a book on women and aging called Face One Square 459 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: Foot of Skin, and before that, in twenty eighteen, she 460 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: published Fame, The Hijacking of Reality. I wanted to know 461 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: what drew her to explore that complex topic in print. 462 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 3: Well, when I wrote Fame, which is about the life 463 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 3: cycle of fame, and some famous people don't experience this 464 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 3: complete life cycle, which is it begins, it grows, it 465 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 3: levels off, and this starts to descend and then goes away. 466 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 3: So I've experienced that entire life cycle. Somebody like Brad Pitt, 467 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 3: you know, he's at the leveling off. Everybody just knows 468 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 3: he's famous and will probably never experience the back end 469 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 3: like like I have and others have. So I thought 470 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 3: that was very interesting and it was very interesting to 471 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 3: process the back end of that life cycle. And then 472 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 3: I started wondering. I started thinking about that intangible fame 473 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 3: thing like when somebody if Brad Pitt walks into the room, 474 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 3: everything in the room, everything that was happening in that room, 475 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: all the attitudes of conversations people were having. Say in 476 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 3: a room in a restaurant, say stops and people sit differently. 477 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 3: Something wasts itself through the room and changes people's behaviors. 478 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: So that's how that started. 479 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 3: I wanted to look at that, and then what it 480 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 3: wound up being was a real look at that life 481 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 3: cycle from the inside, my experiences with it, and then 482 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 3: my theories and sociological established sociological theories on why people 483 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 3: behave the way they do, two famous people at different 484 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:03,719 Speaker 3: points in that life cycle. 485 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: Now with you, with you, was it something that you 486 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: you know, you're in the water and the current is 487 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: pulling you away from a mainstream career. You were obviously 488 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: one of the stars of a huge hit show. We 489 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: were actually on the at the Hampton's film festival where 490 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: I program a summer documentary series. We almost said Michael 491 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: come and do his doc and he was going to 492 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: do a Q and A with us, but he pulled 493 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: out because I guess he hasn't really been feeling that 494 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: great lately. We were going to do his the Michael J. 495 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: Fox documentary out there. But in your case, I wonder 496 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: when you're famous and you're on a successful show. And 497 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: I'm not saying this to be kind. That was a 498 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: funny show. Everybody know that was a really well written 499 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: and clever show. Did it kind of ebb and you're 500 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: floating away like the rip currents are pulling you away 501 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: from groovytown because you didn't care. You didn't you didn't 502 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: mind that you did. You put up a fight and 503 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: you wanted to stay prominent in the business and it 504 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: didn't work out, or you didn't give a shit, no, no, 505 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: something like that. 506 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 3: It was more it was more of a kind of 507 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: a life experience. And this is what to go into 508 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 3: in the book. What I talk about in the book 509 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 3: is that we all have our reality right who we're 510 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 3: married to, or who our parents are, what city we 511 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 3: live in, or what gender we are, or what language 512 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 3: we speak, what job we have, all these things, what 513 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 3: time we are in, right, And if any one of 514 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 3: those things were to change. For a lot of people, 515 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 3: it can be a traumatic sometimes, right, like somebody you 516 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 3: love dies or you have to you get relocated your 517 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 3: job to another country, so you have to adjust your 518 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 3: reality to that, because you have a lot of things 519 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 3: attached to these components of our reality justifiably, and we 520 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 3: attach our sometimes our self worth, you know, if it 521 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 3: has to do with jobs or something, or identity, maybe 522 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 3: who we're married to and things like that. So for 523 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 3: a very very small amount of people, fame is one 524 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 3: of those components. And when it first starts happening, and 525 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 3: I know you can relate to this, you're like, this 526 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 3: is this this weird thing that's happening around me, blah 527 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 3: blah blah. But then it becomes so constant You're like, Okay, 528 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: I'm just going to absorb this. I'm going to receive this. 529 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 3: This is part of who I am now. And it's 530 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 3: not somebody saying that's right, don't you know who I am? 531 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 3: And I'm going to get these tables at these restaurants. 532 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 3: It's not that that is what's happening. You make a 533 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 3: reservation at a restaurant. You say your name and they go, oh, 534 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 3: miss Babeman. Of course, yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, I know 535 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 3: I said there weren't any tables. But when you're very famous, 536 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 3: like people enjoyed your work. There's nothing nefarious about it. 537 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 3: People enjoyed your work, and they genuinely want to in 538 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 3: their way, if they run a restaurant, whatever it is, 539 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 3: they want to sort of give back to you, like, oh, 540 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 3: I loved your show or your film or your music 541 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 3: or whatever, and please come in be min. We'd love 542 00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 3: to buy you a bottle of wine. 543 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: Whatever. 544 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 3: It's this nice kind of exchange. Okay, Now that happens 545 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 3: so consistently that you just accepted as part of your reality. 546 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 3: It's just happening all around you all the time. And 547 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 3: if that goes on for many many years, like it 548 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 3: did for me and for many others, when that starts shifting, 549 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 3: it is akin to those big life changes I said 550 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 3: that for you know, in anybody's it starts pulling away 551 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 3: and anything you had attached to it, that you had 552 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 3: reasonably attached to it, your identity, yourself worth, all these 553 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 3: different things. When that starts pulling away, it starts I 554 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 3: always picture, like you know that film Man called Horse. 555 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: You patured Harris up. 556 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 3: There and he had those, so anybody hasn't seen it. 557 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 3: He has to go through this sort of virtual yeah, 558 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 3: and he there's this big pole in the center of 559 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 3: where everybody's standing, and it has ropes attached to the 560 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 3: top of it with hooks at the end of it, 561 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 3: and he has to hook these into skin on his chest. 562 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, into his pectrol muscles. 563 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 3: And pull away from it. Now. So I always. 564 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: Picture one of the most grotesque scenes in the movie. 565 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 3: She really is. 566 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: Can't believe you're referencing, man. 567 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 3: Aame is moving away from you if you had anything 568 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 3: attached to it, and there's many things that you didn't 569 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 3: even realize you attached to it. It starts pulling away 570 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 3: like that, and it's painful. So I in the book 571 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 3: is say like I had to recognize what was attached 572 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 3: to it, and I had to unhook it before it 573 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 3: ripped my chest apart, so to speak. 574 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: Right, my last question for you, I mean, you've had 575 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: such a varied and fascinating life in terms of being 576 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: a big TV star and then going through all these 577 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: different aspects of your life directing and going back to school, 578 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: writing books and so forth. For you do you miss acting? 579 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting, Alec. It wasn't really up to me. 580 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 3: Acting was really good to me for a long time, 581 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 3: and it really was something It never crossed my mind 582 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 3: before it actually occurred. I never grew up thinking I 583 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 3: was going to be an actor. I just sort of 584 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 3: fell into it, and I was gifted at it. It 585 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 3: was I fell into my vocation. And then I got 586 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 3: to a point where my life just turned a corner. 587 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 3: And funny enough, it was the last strike around two 588 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 3: thousand and seven, and I knew, oh my god, this 589 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 3: is what I was born for. To the writing. And 590 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 3: I'd already been writing scripts but just like keeping them 591 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 3: on my computer, not knowing what to do with them. 592 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 3: And I'd wanted to direct since I was nineteen, but 593 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 3: the timing never felt right. So I started writing and 594 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 3: producing it and in the digital space, and I was 595 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 3: off to the races. And from that point there was 596 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 3: a period where inexplicably for five years, I mean I 597 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 3: understand it, I understood it after, but for five years 598 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 3: I would have all kinds of auditions and I worked 599 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 3: all the time up until that point. For five years, 600 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 3: I did not get one job off an audition, and 601 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 3: that was really really confusing, talk about having your reality 602 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 3: tossed upside down. But at the same time, I was 603 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 3: writing all these proposals and these scripts and everything for brands, 604 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 3: and doing all this work in the digital space and 605 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 3: speaking on panels and all this, and I knew that 606 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 3: the writing and directing that was where I was supposed 607 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 3: to go. But I'd always acted, so how could that 608 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 3: door have just been slammed shut? And it was very confusing, 609 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 3: and it was very upsetting because that kind of, you know, 610 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 3: tore my reality a little bit like that. But I realized, 611 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 3: like that had to happen. My life had to do that, 612 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 3: or God, your destiny, whatever somebody wants to call it, 613 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 3: it had to happen, or I would not have been 614 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 3: committed one hundred percent in the direction I had to go, 615 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 3: which was writing and directing and producing films, writing books, 616 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,720 Speaker 3: and you know, going to school and getting computer science degree. 617 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 3: I would have just continued to just do you know, 618 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 3: beyond TV shows or whatever it was. Because I am, 619 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 3: at the risk of sounding absolutely arrogant. I was a 620 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 3: great actor, and I at that point where I couldn't 621 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 3: get a workout of any of those auditions, I was 622 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: doing the best acting I had ever done, so it 623 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 3: wasn't up to me. And I love what I'm doing now. 624 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 3: I mean I feel like everything I've done before my writing, directing, 625 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 3: and producing career began was prep for now. 626 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: Well. I'm not saying this to be kind, but I mean, 627 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: you're so bright. I wonder if the world of acting 628 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 1: today as it exists today would be a complete waste 629 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: of your resources in your time. But I want to 630 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: thank you because I've watched you online with this AI thing, 631 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: and you're a great voice for this. You've got such 632 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: great experience in the business and with the union and 633 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: so forth, and I do hope that we have a 634 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: way to I mean, I don't like these contentious words 635 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: because people used to talk about breaking unions, but I 636 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: hope we have an ability to break the producers. They've 637 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: got to understand that the way this business works, as 638 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: many people don't realize, is a director makes a movie. 639 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: He might make a movie every year and a half 640 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: for two years, so we have to have an income 641 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: that the last two years. Yes, my great thanks to 642 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: you and to you. 643 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 3: I think you're an incredible artist and have so admired 644 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 3: and enjoyed your work. I hope someday that I get 645 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 3: to be a director on one of your films. 646 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: I'm available, my very best to you, and thank you, 647 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, My thanks to Justine Bateman. This 648 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. 649 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. 650 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is 651 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 1: Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Oldwin. Here's the Thing is brought 652 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: to you by iHeart Radio.