1 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Now Julie. 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: Normally we don't we don't do a lot of readings 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: from the Bible on this podcast, but I've got a 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 1: couple here I want to hit everyone with because of 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: Ravens what we're talking about. Both of these are from 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: the Book of Matthew, the New Testament and the first 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: one Matthew eleven. At that time, Jesus explained, I give 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: praise for you, Father, Lord of Heaven and Earth, for 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: although you have hidden these things from the wise and 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: the learning, you have revealed them to the little ones. 13 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: The little ones, little being the children. And then there's 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: another one where he says, I tell you the truth. 15 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: Unless you change and become like little children, you will 16 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 1: never enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And I think there's 17 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: a little more there about needles and rich people. But 18 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: needles and rich people, yeah, yeah, Like it's easier for 19 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: a camel to go through the eyeban needle than for 20 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: a rich man. And can all you know, lots of 21 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: the you know, New testament wisdom that Jesus is spouting 22 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: and in this book. But these two passages in particular 23 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: interesting because they both talk about the this childhood nature, 24 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: this there's something special about children that enables them to 25 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: see the world as it really is, to to see 26 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: through the grown up bs and and get at the 27 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: truth of the matter. And it's something you see, I 28 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: mean throughout the human history. I mean you see it 29 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: a lot in fiction Chronicles of Narnia, Susan becomes too sophisticated, well, 30 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: too grown up for Narnia, can't go there anymore. Puff 31 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: the magic Dragon, as you remember a little Jackie Paper 32 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: Paper reaches the point where you can't see Narnia the 33 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: children and Stephen King's it you too. In order to 34 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: defeat this evil clown shifting monster, you have to have 35 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: this spirit of a child. Yeah. And my neighbor Totoro, 36 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: the farest spirits, adorable as they are, he's got to 37 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: be a child to see them. And and so then 38 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: there's of course this longstanding thing like that. There's the 39 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: whole kids say that darned as things right, where like 40 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: Bill Cosby show, wasn't it it was? Yeah? And I 41 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: think it was. It was an older show even before 42 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: Cosby took it over, but he's the one most remembered 43 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: for it. But the idea being that you bring a 44 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: kid on and you just let them talk, and they're 45 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: you're just gonna drop truth bombs on you because they 46 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: don't know any better. Though, I found it interesting that 47 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: Bill Cosby is also quoted as saying it's saying quote, 48 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: a person with no children says, well, I just love children. 49 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: And you say why, and they say, because the child 50 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: is so truthful, and that's what I love about them. 51 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: They tell the truth. And Cosby goes on to say, 52 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: but that's a lie. I've got five of them and 53 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: the only time they tell the truth is when they're 54 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: having pain. Even that sometimes can be a lie, as 55 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: I have discovered. Yeah, you're you're a mom. What's your 56 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: take on the the innocence and the truth bombs of children? 57 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: The truth bombs? Um, Well, I mean I think everything 58 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: is is new to them, right, so immediately kids see 59 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: things an entirely different way because they're piecing together context 60 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: and being able to see things, um from an entirely 61 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: new perspective, as we know, is a completely liberating thing. 62 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: And there's a power to that, and we've talked about 63 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: that before that as we age, we tend to let 64 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: some of that uh slaw off of us, right, because 65 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: we're so used to sort of establishing a pattern, going 66 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: with that and then moving forward. But to paraphrase Picasso, 67 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: he said he took his whole life to think like 68 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 1: a child artistically to reach that place where he could 69 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: once again delve into novel ideas or novel representations of 70 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: the human experience. And in fact, I am looking at 71 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: Picasso right now because in our podcast Booth. I don't 72 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: know if we've ever mentioned this before. I don't think 73 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: you have not in the podcast. Uh well, we have 74 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: a couple of photos in the podcast Booth, and the 75 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: one that I get to stare at is Picasso in 76 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: his underwear. So I think about this idea a lot, 77 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: so that I don't think about Picasso in his underwear 78 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: with a bat for a while. But then then someone 79 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: moved it. Yeah I did. I covered up his private 80 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: parts in this one. They did. Um, But there is 81 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: this I think he puts a you well that you 82 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: know it takes a lot of effort to try to 83 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: bust out of these constraints that we because we have 84 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: to we placed in our lives, um, and to be 85 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: able to think in a way that is completely mind 86 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: blowing a new Yeah. I mean there is something about 87 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: the creativity alone of a child. UM. I think I've 88 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: mentioned this before. There's a in Atlanta. There's a there's 89 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: an improv company called Dad's Garage and they do if 90 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: you go at night, you've often get a lot of 91 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: very blue material from these improv actors. They're getting up there. 92 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: They're blooming dirty dirty. Yeah, they're doing free association and 93 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: it's and all sorts of outlandish things are coming up 94 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: that I couldn't even mention on the podcast, but they 95 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: would all. They also do a show and I think 96 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: they still do it called Uncle Grahampa's Hoodaily story Time. 97 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: And in this show, it's the same improv actors, these 98 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,559 Speaker 1: same same guys and gals that are just really tearing 99 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: it up at night with ranching material. But now they're 100 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: in the a m and they have they're performing to 101 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: an audience of mostly children, but they're also doing improv 102 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: and they're getting tips from the audience, so they'll they'll 103 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: ask the kids in the audience, Hey, what should the 104 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: name of this princess be and what should the story 105 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: that we tell be called? And uh, I've been to 106 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: it a couple of times, and there it is always 107 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: amazing because from these children, they're able to come up 108 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: with the craziest ideas, like stuff that these these these 109 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: experienced and highly creative improv actors would never be able 110 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: to pull out. Like like I remember one when when 111 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: they asked what should the princess be called, the little 112 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: girl said that the princess name should be quote Batman 113 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: the Girl, which is incredible. You know, it's like that 114 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: kind of like strange, free association that you're just not 115 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: going to get from an adult. Well, yeah, I remember 116 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: seeing this Ted talk and uh, I'll show this up 117 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: on Facebook or in a post. I don't remember the 118 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: name of the Ted talk right now, but they were 119 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: starting they were talking about accessing again this this childish thinking, 120 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: and they were talking about um an arts program in 121 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: which the kids were making different kinds of clay models, 122 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: and one of the kids came up with Bacon Boy 123 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: and it is so I've got to throw up an 124 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: image of this. It is awesome, you know, sort of 125 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: a superpower figure. And again, these are not things that 126 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: we as adults go around thinking like I'm going to 127 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: sculpture Bacon Boy today and really start to think about 128 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: this mythology of this character. But that's what kids do. 129 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: And um, if you have ever taken a walk with 130 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: a toddler anywhere from two to when they started to 131 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: get preschool four five years of age, you know there 132 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: is no linear path. That this is going to take 133 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: a long time because everything is going to be picked 134 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: up and inspected and stories where will begin to just 135 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: organically arise from their experience with with their environments. And 136 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: we have talked about this before, but I thought it 137 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: would be good for us to mention that this is 138 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: this idea that when we are adults, we have a 139 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: focus that is that's pretty laser focused, this flashlight focus 140 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: that kids starting as infants grow into that flashlight focus, 141 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: but they begin at the lantern of light experience where everything, 142 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: uh is it has light cast upon it and they're 143 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: considering everything in their world. Yeah. Like, one thing that 144 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: comes to mind when I think about this is the 145 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: the Alan Rogue Grulay novel Jealousy, where the entire book 146 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: and this is not going to really sell it well 147 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: from most people, but the entire book is this guy 148 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: staring at a wall or occasionally staring at its has 149 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: banana plantation and trying to figure out whether his wife 150 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: is having an affair with another band of plantation owner. 151 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: And so a lot of it is him staring at 152 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: at a sneer on the wall where he killed a 153 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: centipede and just obsessing and obsessing, obsessing. It's that laser focus, 154 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, and that he's getting nothing done the whole 155 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: novel because he's just obsessed with one thing. And I 156 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: feel in his adults that we often do that it's 157 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: not an actual smash centipede on the wall. Then it's 158 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: something like, you know, some you know guy starts losing 159 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: his hair, and then that's the thing they come back 160 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: to over and over again. Oh my goodness, what's happening 161 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: to me? Am I I'm getting older. I'm dying. You know, 162 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: we end up obsessing over something, or we get obsessed 163 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: with with one particular material thing or another, or or 164 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: we attached our ego to a sports team or something. 165 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: Whereas how many how many child children do you know 166 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: who are rabid sports fanatics, who are rabbid fans of 167 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: a particular team, you know, how many reliduced fundamentalist children 168 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: do you know? How many neurotic children do you know 169 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: where they're obsessed with? Uh, I don't know if their 170 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: weight gain. Yeah, that's just not really something that you 171 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: you commonly see until they get a little bit older, right, 172 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: they get into grade school. The thing about this, and 173 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: psychologist Alison Gothnick has talked about this, is that when 174 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: you're an adult, you have, uh, you know, certain neural 175 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: connections that have been pruned away because you don't use 176 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: them anymore. And so if you are that character in 177 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: the book who is staring at the wall, well, you're 178 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: gonna be squirting a lot of neuro transmitters on that 179 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: part of the brain to really keep it activated in focus. 180 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: But if you are an infant, your entire brain is 181 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: just steeped in neuro transmitters. It's marinating in it. And 182 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: this is what she says results in this information rich world, 183 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: this lantern vision, trying to take every single thing in. Yeah. 184 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: She mentions in her in her writing that in the 185 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: past it's been difficult for us to try and study 186 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: exactly what's going on in the in the minds of 187 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: young children, and certainly in the minds of of unlanguaged 188 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: children and infants, and and even if you can get 189 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: them to talk, it's going to be a stream of 190 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: consciousness mumbo jumbo about I think her example is birthday 191 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: parties and horses, obviously for for girls and for for 192 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: little boys. Birthday parties. Uh, fire trucks and boogers. You know, 193 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: it's I mean to go across gender, across gender, fire trucks, 194 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: but yeah, um so. So I found that interesting because 195 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: a lot of her studies is about getting beyond that 196 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: and really finding ways to not only look at what 197 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: children and infants are saying, well certainly not infants so much, 198 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: but what beyond what children are say, and also look 199 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: at their actions and how they're interacting with the world 200 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: around them. And what she gets out a lot is 201 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: the idea of this plasticity, which we've talked about before, 202 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: the ability of our mind to change, the ability of 203 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: ourselves to to to roll with the punches, because when 204 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: you were a a zero to three year old, you 205 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: have to really be able to roll with the punches. 206 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: And so even in even in a very comfy environment, 207 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: if you grow up in a very civilized environment, a 208 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 1: very safe environment, there's still a lot of a lot 209 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: of trauma around you when you're that alert to the world, 210 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: and certainly in in less advantageous environments, you've gotta be 211 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: really hardy to survive. Yeah, she alson. Gopnik actually has 212 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: this great quote about what it's like to be an infant, 213 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: and she said, and this is the kind of more 214 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: romanticized version of it, as opposed to just you know, 215 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: having to deal with all the noise and the different stimuli. 216 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: She says, it's like being in love and perish for 217 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: the first time after you've had three double espressos. Yeah, 218 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: so there is this idea you are being bombarded by 219 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: all the different elements out there. She also mentions the 220 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: study of Eastern European orphans who were adopted by parents 221 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: in the UK and about how in in in most 222 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: of the case it's not all but in most of 223 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: those cases, and these were kids that were they're growing 224 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: up in like extreme um situations of you know, they're 225 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: just not exposed to enough sensory information, enough personal interaction. 226 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: They're starved for all of this. But they're so but 227 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: the child is so resilient zero to three that most 228 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: of them were able to just really bounce back without 229 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: any kind of significant problems. And she says that this 230 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: is because of this different consciousness that kids have that 231 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: they grow out of again into the more flashlight focus. 232 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: But she's saying, and this is this is kind of 233 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: looping it back on how you can try to retain 234 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: a bit of this for yourself as as an adult. 235 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: She's saying that the creative people are able to hold 236 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: onto this different consciousness to be able to inhabit this 237 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:03,599 Speaker 1: mind space where you can transfer your consciousness from flashlight 238 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: to lantern and began to take more things in all 239 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: while being a reasonably um responsible adult. Of course, one 240 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: thing that comes to mind here, and so we're comparing 241 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: adult artists with young children, one thing that instantly comes 242 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: to mind here is children running around in the yard naked, 243 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: and then artists inevitably running around in the yard naked, 244 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: or like our friend Picasso here in the diaper um 245 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: because it does kind of his head where it does 246 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: look like a diaper, Because art, like childhood, is kind 247 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 1: of a judgment free zone. And as it turns out, 248 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: that plays into this mind of a child, this creativity 249 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, and in fact, in kids and teenagers 250 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: frontal lobes the seat of judgment. Right, these are the 251 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: last pieces to be fully connected to the brain, okay, 252 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: or be fully connected to parts of the brain that 253 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: deal with judgment, inhibition, self awareness, cause and effect, acknowledgement, um, 254 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: all the things that are sort of the bane of 255 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: our existence with with teenagers that we normally look at us. Ah, man, 256 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: they just they're crazy there, you know, look at their hair. 257 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: What are they think? Yeah, yeah, they're just there's not 258 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: a lick of sense. And that kid um, that actually 259 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: can be a real boon two kids because they lack 260 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: again this idea of this inner judgmental voice that can 261 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: sometimes stop us in our tracks when we're trying to 262 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: do something novel um. So again, trying to silence that 263 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: part of the brain is really important. And we have 264 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: talked about this before, but surgeon and jazz musician Charles 265 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: Limb wanted to look at this a little more carefully 266 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: to say, how how are musicians so adept at just 267 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: getting in there and improvising? What makes them able to 268 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: do that? And it turns out that musicians are really 269 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: good at turning off the part of the brain again 270 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: this uh dorsal lateral prefrontal and lateral orbital regions, dimming 271 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: that and instead bringing online the medial prefrontal cortex, which 272 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: else them to express themselves better. And so the frontal 273 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: lobes they dim a bit because they're like, yeah, you 274 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: know what, I don't need you right now. I really 275 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: need to kind of flex this part of my muscle. 276 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: So he saw that in all these m r I 277 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: scans of these musicians, which really pointed to this idea 278 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: that certain things are play. In fact, neuroscientists, Rex Jung 279 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: also talks about how highly creative people usually have less 280 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: white matter integrity and less brain tissue in the frontal lobes. Okay, 281 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that they're you know, less intelligent or 282 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: that they lack something. It just means that the frontal 283 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: lobes again the seat of judgment, Uh, it's not nearly 284 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: as taxed with neural connections, these glial cells, white cells, 285 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: and therefore those people are a bit more unencumbered when 286 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: it comes to creating something new. All right, we are 287 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break, but when we come back, 288 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: we are going to talk about the importance of play 289 00:14:52,640 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: in this idea of uncertainty in our lives. All right, 290 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: we're back. We're discussing again the minds of children. Uh, 291 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: this old idea that children see the world as it 292 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: really is, or they see it in in a unique way. 293 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: And if we as adults can simply recapture some of 294 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: that childhood essence, and I mean not in a drain 295 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: essence from a child's skull in a like a skexy way, 296 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: but in an actual let us let's change the way 297 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: we perceive the world and how we interact with it too, 298 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: to improve our creative output. And and when I say creative, 299 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about finger painting on the wall. 300 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: But as we'll discussed here, actual scientific achievement as well 301 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: falls under this category. Yeah, really engaging critical thinking skill. 302 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: According to neuroscientists, Bolatto and he has that great Ted 303 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: dot com talk, He says that uncertainty for adults is 304 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: really problematic. And this is particularly true in the context 305 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: of evolution, where uncertainty, you know, not knowing if there's 306 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: a saber tooth tiger in the weeds over there or 307 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: if it's just the wind rustling through through the leaves, 308 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: could result in death. For us, we need to be 309 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: certain about certain elements of life Yeah. That's the thing 310 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: about uncertainty is that, for the most part, most of 311 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: us tend to want to get away from uncertainty because 312 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: uncertainty brings potential disaster. Uncertainty as you're walking down the 313 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: street means maybe I'll get run over by a car, 314 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: maybe I'll get mugged. Maybe again the saber through tiger 315 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: will jump out at me. But it's out of that 316 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: uncertainty that so many amazing creative ideas arise. And the 317 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: way that we combat uncertainty, of course, is to sort 318 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: of apply a script to the world, to cling to 319 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: certain world views that that bring order out of chaos. 320 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: So look at any particular world view and it may 321 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: and generally it's about positioning yourself, your group at the center, 322 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: creating a barrier between this group and outside groups. I 323 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: we think like this, They think like that. These are 324 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: the rules of the environment in which I live. These 325 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: are the people who don't abide by those rules. These 326 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: are the rules that apply to me. We we steadily organized, 327 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: We build a little fort of ideas in which we 328 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: feel safe against the chaos of the world. And that's 329 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,479 Speaker 1: that's certainty that we're talking about. That really helps us 330 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: to predict how things will come out. But he's saying 331 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: that for children, uncertainty is a game, and it is 332 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: a necessary game because if you look at animals and humans, 333 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: all species play in some way. And we've talked about 334 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: this before, um in terms of the amount of time 335 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: it takes for a creature to mature. We've talked about 336 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: the New Caledonian crow, which has a relatively long childhood 337 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: as as a bird, and then we've talked about the say, 338 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: just you know, your run of the Milk chicken, and 339 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: the consensus there was that the New Caldonian crow really 340 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: needed that time to mature because it's pretty sophisticated in 341 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: terms of its tool use and where's the chicken so 342 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: much doesn't need a lot of time to play to 343 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: to have a long childhood. And as we said, one 344 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: ended up in in a pot. The other one, the 345 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: New Caldonian Crow, ended up on the cover of Nature 346 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: magazine because it does have these very sophisticated tool using abilities. 347 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: So when you look at children and you get uncertainty, 348 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: it really is necessary for kids to throw away the 349 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: rules and to begin to like a scientist, approach their 350 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: environments and play with that environment. Yeah, it's easy to 351 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: look at children and play and and just sort of 352 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: discredited to say, oh, that's just children wasting time instead 353 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: of doing chores, which they should be doing, or to 354 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: look at it in terms of all right, well that's 355 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: a that's a boy and he's playing with tools and 356 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: beating stuff with hammers. He's just he's just kind of 357 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: practicing for his life. Or oh, there's a little girl 358 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: and she's playing with the baby doll. Well, that's just 359 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: her rehearsing. That's a little there's a kitten fighting another kitten. 360 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: They're just rehearsing for their their lives. It's aggressive hunters, 361 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: but there's a lot more going on speci Typically, as 362 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: a bow Latto points out, play be it whatever the 363 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: kittens doing, what the child is doing, or what an 364 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: adult artists or scientists is engaging in, boils down to 365 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: five different things. First, celebrating uncertainty. It's not you're not 366 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: entering the environment and saying saying, oh, there there might 367 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: be something I'm unsure of outside of this fort of ideas. 368 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: It's about venturing outside of that fort of ideas and 369 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: seeing the world anew uh. It's about being acceptable to change, 370 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: engaging in this in this world, beyond the fortress of ideas, 371 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: and realizing that what you see may change you, It 372 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,959 Speaker 1: may change how you assemble your fortress of ideas when 373 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: you return to it. You have to be open to possibility, 374 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: open to the possibility that you're gonna change, open to 375 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: the possibility that your preconceived notions are going to fail. 376 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: You need to be cooperative, certainly if you're venturing outside 377 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: of that fortress of ideas with other individuals, and finally, 378 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: intrinsically motivated, you're doing it because you want to You 379 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: want to see beyond this fortress of ideas that you've 380 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: used to understand the world previously. Now, as um, you 381 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: have probably witnessed before with kids that the rules can 382 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: change pretty quick, right, They can throw them out or 383 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: sometimes just completely change them. One second the floor's lava, 384 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: then it's then it's a never ending pit, and then 385 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: it's okay to walk on, which is great, right because 386 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: it kind of gets very good narrative consistency. No, nobody 387 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: gives them a certain amount of flexibility. And you have 388 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: mentioned like giving a girl a baby doll and giving 389 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: a boy tools. Um, really, you give a kid a 390 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: stick and they are going to turn it into something 391 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: in which Tory, Yeah, to interrogate the world around them. 392 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: And I see this again and again with my daughter 393 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: making Pulley systems out of you know, um buckets, because 394 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: the buckets are full of Pixie destin she needs to 395 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: skewer some pirate or something. Um. But I think it's 396 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: really interestinging that Lotto looked at this play, this uncertainty, 397 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,479 Speaker 1: and then he sought out a group of children ages 398 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: eight to ten because he wanted to know could they 399 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: approach an experiment or could they create their own experiment? 400 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: And could we actually get something on the other end 401 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: that we could use. Because again he's saying that those 402 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: those five circumstances that you talked about, this openness, this 403 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: um intrinsically motivated cooperation, and so on and so forth. 404 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: He's saying that this is really the play of a scientist. 405 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: This is what scientists do. Yeah. I mean again, it's 406 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: easier to make the initial comparison to creative work because 407 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: like I think, if like, if I'm writing a story 408 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: or something, I'm entering it with an uncertain mind. I 409 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: don't know where characters are gonna end up, or what's 410 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: going to happen in maybe one rule or two that 411 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: you're trying to stay too, and those rules may they 412 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: break by the time I finish it. I mean, I 413 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: can't think of the number of times that I've I've 414 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: started writing a story and when I end up getting 415 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: is entirely different because I've because you've got to be 416 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: open to it to change. And then, certainly in science, 417 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: when you start looking at these these five things from 418 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: a scientist per spective, imagine if a scientist goes out 419 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: to figure out why something in the world works the 420 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: way it does, or something in the outer cosmos works 421 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: the way it does. You're going to go in there 422 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: with some preconceived notions, but you have to be able 423 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: to to dispel them and ignore them. It need be 424 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: for commisically and you have to celebrate uncertainty, it be 425 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: acceptable to change, open to possibility, cooperative, and intrinsically motivated. Well, 426 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: a lot of wanted to see if these codes could 427 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: see themselves differently through the process of being a scientist, 428 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: because again, when you say let's let's do some science, 429 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: that's pretty weighted because people approach it and thinking that 430 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: science is something that is separate from them as opposed 431 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 1: to well, it's actually science really plays to our strengths 432 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: as human beings. Yeah, this this comes into sort of 433 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: the puff the magic dragon thing again. There's kind of 434 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: this false idea that when you're a child, it's all 435 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: interacting with imaginary creatures and engaging in this creativity. But 436 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: then you learn to be a grown up and you 437 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: learn science, and then you put all that crap behind you. 438 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: But as as we're discussing here, being a scientist is 439 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: as much about embracing that spirit of childhood as it 440 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: is about growing up and becoming more mature. So a 441 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: lot of worked with twenty five children in conjunction with 442 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: their headmaster, again ages eight to ten, and they studied 443 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: black wotton bees to see if these bees, again this 444 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: is something that kids came up with, could solve problems 445 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: in a similar way that humans do. And the kids 446 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: asked the questions and they actually devised the experiments. Um. 447 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: According to Biology Letters, which published the paper, the children's 448 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: findings show that bees are able to alter their foraging 449 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: behavior based on previously learned colors and pattern cues and 450 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: a complex scene consisting of a local pattern within a 451 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: larger global pattern. This is pretty sophisticated for an insect 452 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: um and then in Biology letters that says, as there 453 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: has been little testing of bees learning color patterns at 454 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: small and large scales, the results contribute considerably to our 455 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: understanding of insect behavior. The kids managed to not only 456 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: published a paper, which we'll talk a little bit more 457 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: about how they did that, but to to get a 458 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: novel understanding of an insect. And what I love about 459 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: this is that the paper actually begins with once upon 460 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: a Time, which largely written in kids speak, but the 461 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: methodology that they came up with, the observations, the hypothesis, 462 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: all of this is so solid that they, you know, 463 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: the people who actually ended up reviewing this and writing 464 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: a commentary on this could not deny that they had 465 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,959 Speaker 1: found something that was very valuable. Well, it reminds me 466 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: of your daughter's interaction with the trial bide and how 467 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: she granted she gave it, that she give it a name, 468 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: called it Gonk, but then also created the story about 469 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 1: how it was going down to the water and eating plants, 470 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. So it wasn't living in a 471 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: fairy castle or anything. It was. She wasn't creating a 472 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: a plausible story for that creature based on her knowledge 473 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: of the world well and more importantly of her observations 474 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: of the world, then she had a context for it, 475 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: and she of course subscribed emotions to it and all 476 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: this sort of stuff. But yeah, I mean, do you 477 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: just give kids a couple of things and they will 478 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: run with us? And UH and began to see the 479 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: logic inherent in there. I wanted to also point out 480 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: that the paper that they came up with actually had 481 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: hand drawn figures and tables in it as well. And 482 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: if you check out that TED talk um by a 483 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: lot of you'll also see a presentation by Amy O'Toole, who, 484 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: at the time of a twelve year old student who 485 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: helped run one of the science experiments that it was 486 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: inspired by Bolto science approach and UH. At the age 487 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: of ten, she became one of the youngest people ever 488 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: to publish a peer of viewed science paper, and she 489 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: was also at the time the youngest person to give 490 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: a TED talk or to help give a TED talk. 491 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: Since you get the second half, but that was really 492 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: motivating as well, because then it comes down to the 493 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: idea that when you got these kids in the room, 494 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: you got him thinking about science they were already asking 495 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: questions that were significant to science. Yeah, I mean this 496 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: is pretty life changing for a lot of those kids, 497 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: because again a lot of wanted to see how they 498 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: would see themselves after going through a scientific process and 499 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: you know, help them to gell this idea that science 500 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: is again a part of them and not apart, not 501 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: some sort of It's not something you learn, it's something 502 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: you are from the earliest. If anything is we grow 503 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: older more many of us we forget science rather than 504 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: have to learn it. Well, it just seems like something 505 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: that we look through the window at, right. But Loto 506 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: said this, and I thought it was really interesting. He said, 507 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: the point is what science does for us. We normally 508 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: walk through life responding, but if we ever want to 509 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: do anything different, we have to step into uncertainty. That's 510 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: what science offers us. It offers the possibility to step 511 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: into uncertainty through the process of play. Yeah. It reminds 512 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: me of a quote badly enough by Timothy Leary who 513 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: talked about before he gets his childlike was childlike. Yeah, 514 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: I mean he was, you know, he was very free 515 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: thinking dude. Um for some of the other faults aside, 516 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: but he has this great quote where he says to 517 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: think for yourself, you must question an authority and learn 518 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open mindedness, 519 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: chaotic confused vulnerability to inform yourself tune in. Yeah, and 520 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: of course the thing is, you know, you need to 521 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: remind mrr Larry that ultimately don't need any pharmaceutical help 522 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: to achieve that. In I mean, all you have to 523 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: do is either be a child or try and think 524 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: like a child, and you can achieve that that level 525 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: of of chaotic, confused vulnerability. Well, here's the thing about 526 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: Larry is that he was a trained scientist, and so 527 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 1: he had a background in the best ways to go 528 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: about thinking critically but also thinking in a way that 529 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: could really open up the mind. And when I think 530 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: about ways in which you can look at probabilities and 531 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: try to predict the future in a new way or 532 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: an interesting way, I think about Bayesian modeling. Yes. Now, 533 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: this is UH something that is named after the Reverend 534 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: Reverend Thomas Bayes, an eighteenth century mathematician, and according to 535 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: Alice and Gopnik, studies show that kids at least unconsciously 536 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: are Asian UH masters themselves. Now here's the thing about 537 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: Beiesian logic is you can really get into the weeds 538 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: trying to understand what it is. Essentially, Baisian probability theory 539 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: is a branch of mathematical theory that allows one to 540 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,239 Speaker 1: model uncertainty about the world and about the outcomes of 541 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: various aspects of that world by combining common sense knowledge 542 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: with observational evidence. Okay, it sounds very mechanical and straightforar 543 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: this because it is. It's actually figures into some of 544 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: our AI constructs that we're working on today. It's a 545 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: central part of trying to figure out how an intelligent 546 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: creature thinks. Yeah, it was actually going to mention that 547 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: Bayesian modeling actually came online in I think the early nineties, 548 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: around the same time that psychologists were beginning to look 549 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: at kids and wondering if this Baisian modeling was inherent 550 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: to them. And it's funny because AI, artificial intelligence and 551 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,959 Speaker 1: kids really go hand in hand because people who are 552 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: interested in AI are interested in looking at kids as 553 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: the root model. In other words, if we're going to 554 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: build a computer that can think like us, act like us, 555 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,959 Speaker 1: make decisions, then we want it to be based on 556 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: this root material. A k a. Kids. And you know, 557 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: as we're moving forward to the future, we we inevitably 558 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: come back to this idea of of robots solving problems, 559 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: computers solving problems. We want to know the weather's doing 560 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: in ten days through a computer model at it, right, 561 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: And it's just gonna become more and more like that 562 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: as we move forward. So it's it's fascinating to think 563 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: that the ais that we're building today to solve the 564 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: problems of tomorrow, children are already born with that, with 565 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: those mechanics in their mind. If they get older and 566 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: they become adults, it becomes clouded. So in a way, 567 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: adult humans are having to build robots that think like 568 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: children so they can solve the problems that they no 569 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: longer can. And one of the reasons that can because 570 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: of preconceived notions. And these again, these these fortresses of 571 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: ideas that we build because whether you're looking at questions 572 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: of I want who's gonna win the election, I wonder, 573 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: I wonder what choice I should make in my life 574 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: regarding my employment, uh, any number of questions that may 575 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: come up. We're we're handicapped against applying the Asian logic 576 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: to them because we have these these world views in place, 577 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: these preconceived notions, this fortress of ideas that we have 578 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: to somehow navigate, and it could because of all those 579 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: preconceived notions, they end up flowing the data. Yeah, it's true. 580 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: And um, you know, kids can really be better problem 581 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: solvers when it comes to Bayesian logic, because, as you say, 582 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: there are certain things that as we get older, we 583 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: have these priors, they get stronger and stronger, and they 584 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: actually need to in some ways to help us survive 585 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: our experience in the world. But we're already relying on 586 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: that too heavily and less on new data, right, so 587 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: we rely more on our past experiences, and these strong 588 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: priors are really actually very comforting to us. But Bayesian 589 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: inference inference, excuse me, it considers both uh, new evidence 590 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: and prior probability of hypotheses, and this gives Baisian learning 591 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: a character characteristic combination of stability and flexibility. So here's 592 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: the key to it really working really well in science 593 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: and with kids. In science. Uh, if if you have 594 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: a really crappy hypothesis, you're gonna throw it out. Kids 595 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: are going to do the same thing. They don't have 596 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: emotional investments or really strong priors. So this allows them 597 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,479 Speaker 1: to go through the information much better. Okay, so how 598 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: do we know that kids are better at some reasoning 599 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to to be Asian modeling, um than adults? 600 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: Is it because they say the darniest things? It is 601 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: Alson Gopnik again, who is pretty much the centerpiece for 602 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: this podcast. She used something called a Blikic detector. This 603 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: is a machine that lights up and plays music when 604 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: certain objects which are controlled by the experiment or are 605 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: placed on top of it, plays like a cube onto 606 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: this little platform and lights up and it starts playing music. Right, 607 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: you might have different shapes, you might have a star 608 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: or a cube, or different colors, and so the idea 609 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: is that you begin to understand the relationship of what 610 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: makes the machine work. Well, what she did is she 611 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: asked both adults and children separately in separate experiments, to 612 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: try to figure out these objects and how they would 613 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: make the machine work. I mean, essentially, she was saying, 614 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: go make this machine work. Well, the kids were a 615 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: lot better at it, because what what the adults did 616 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: is they observed what the experiment or did with the 617 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: blocks to make the machine work and there's a really 618 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: strong priors, and so they were holding onto the this 619 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: idea of what happened in the past, whereas the kids 620 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: were able to take every single angle of the blocks 621 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: the colors put together, you know, various points of data 622 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: to figure out how to best make this blicket machine work. 623 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: Another example of this is give an iPad to a 624 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: child and your grandparents and see who figures it out 625 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: for Yeah, and in some not to say that's a 626 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: complete divide, because you're gonna have some older people that 627 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: really dive with new technology and again are really able 628 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,959 Speaker 1: to pass that booket test. Like my wife's grandmother in 629 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: her nineties use the Kindle all the time, which is awesome. 630 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: Do you think kindles in the beginning like an early 631 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: early adopter of that technology. Well, and see there's again 632 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: there's this idea of holding on see this bit of 633 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: your your childhood thinking or your childness, or this openness 634 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: to new ideas and experiences and not saying up a 635 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: machine for a bug, give me my old books, Just 636 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: give me my paper, my paper, I just move with 637 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: my finger. Yeah, yeah, you can do the same thing 638 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: with kindle. Um, all right, So there's this idea. Another 639 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: pcassa quote that everything you can imagine is real. Now 640 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: I would say that I would add this, you just 641 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: have to make it fit into that bay Asian model. 642 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: So anything you dream of could be real as long 643 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: as you can make it fit into the constructs of 644 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: our physical world. And that's where Okem's razor comes in. Yeah, 645 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: all comes razor. Is this idea that basically the simplest 646 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 1: answer is the one that is probably the most likely answer. Yeah, 647 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: Akams raisers. It's interesting because the term first appears around 648 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty, two centuries after the death of the guy's 649 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: named after, who was a fourteenth century Franciscan friar by 650 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: the name of William of Oakum. Uh. Really fascinating dude. Um. 651 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: If you've ever read the Name of the rose By 652 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: and Burn of Eco, the main character in that, who's 653 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: a Sherlock Holmes styled monk named William of Baskerville. He's 654 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 1: always talking about his friendship and camaraderie with Oakum's way 655 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: of thinking, because despite being a Franciscan friar, he was 656 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: you could you imagine, all right, what he's gonna be 657 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: a really religious dude. He's gonna see the world through 658 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: religious goggles and to a certain extent you, as we've 659 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: discussed in a recent podcast on witchcraft, that's gonna be 660 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: a part of the way you see the world. You 661 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: just can't help with us the world you're born into. 662 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: But Oakum was a realist, and what we call a nominalist. 663 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: Nominalism is the theory that there are no universal soul, 664 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: essences and reality. He argued that only individuals exist rather 665 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: than super individual universals, essences, and forms. So to break 666 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: that down in a really sustinct way, I turned to 667 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: Catholic Encyclopedia of all places. They have a really nice 668 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: paragraph and we're just gonna read this. They say, exaggerated 669 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: realism invents a world of reality, corresponding exactly to the 670 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 1: attributes of the world of thought. Nominalism, on the contrary, 671 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: models the concept on the external object, which it holds 672 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: to be individual in particular. So it comes down to 673 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: how are you gonna understand the world around you? Are 674 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: you gonna start with the ideas about the world and 675 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: work down to the world itself, or do you start 676 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: with the world and work out from there? And so 677 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: that's that's a large part of Lum's Razer. Right there 678 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: is is looking at this idea, this possible theory for 679 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: what's happening, and then asking yourself which hypothesis conforms to 680 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: the world that we observe and not the world that 681 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: we think exists. This is the basis of the scientific method, 682 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: and so when we talk about science and scientists and play, 683 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: this is really essentially we're talking about because in a way, 684 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: this is a bit of a thought experiment, although with 685 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: the thought experiment you're just trying to kind of throw 686 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: everything out there. You're not really looking for for something 687 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: that's going to stick. But it's the same idea that 688 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: you you try to figure out every hypothesis you can 689 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: and then you call out the ones that don't make 690 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: any sense or at least probable. Um. Now, this is 691 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: really an awesome game to play with kids because it 692 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: fuels their imagination, but it also gives them the tools 693 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: to sort through all the data that they have and 694 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: find a line of logic. And it's a particularly a 695 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: nice game to play when they're at that age where 696 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: they're asking a bazilion questions about how the world works. Right, Yeah, 697 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: like why is that? Why is the sky blue? Well, 698 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: because it has to do with reflectional well, why is 699 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: that the case? Then? Why is that the case? And 700 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: and you can either give up like the lady I 701 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 1: observed at a zoo once when the child asked, Mommy, 702 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 1: why does the commode dragon? Why does he look like that? 703 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: And she just responded because that's just the way God 704 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,240 Speaker 1: made him, honey. Right there, there's a complete non answer, 705 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: and not engaging with the child's curiosity about the world 706 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: and instead saying, here's a big wall of the fortress 707 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: of ideas, let me erect that in in the way 708 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: of the horizon. Say I'm going to say that that 709 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: parent probably had low blood sugar. So before you engage 710 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: in augms phraser, make sure you eat something because you're 711 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 1: gonna need that energy because kids will ask a million questions, 712 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: as you say, and it can get a little bit like, oh, 713 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, like after fifteen million questions. But you know, obviously, 714 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 1: my daughter asked me a ton of questions every day 715 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: about everything, and um, one of the things that I 716 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: noticed was she's starting to enter into that territory where 717 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: the unknown is frightening her. So she's really looking for answers, 718 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,280 Speaker 1: she's looking for comfort, Like the skeleton thing you mentioned. Yeah, 719 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: she's she's very frightened of skeletons, even though we've talked 720 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: about how they're inside our bodies. Um, you know, they 721 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: help us to walk, so on and so forth, a 722 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: very practical things. She said, I don't care. I just 723 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,919 Speaker 1: don't want to see them outside of the skin, which 724 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: is a reasonable request. What are you know what you're 725 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: gonna say to that. Um, But one of the things 726 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: that drives her nuts, or has in the past, is 727 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: that we'll she'll hear things on the roof of our house. Well, 728 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 1: I know it's magnolia pods. There's just falling and they're 729 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 1: huge and they're I mean, they do sound like someone's 730 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: on the roof. Yeah, oh yeah, the squirrels. It's a 731 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: racetrack actually on our house, particularly this time of year 732 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: in the fall. But um, so if I hear allowed that, 733 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: what I've done in the past is I've said, okay, 734 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: you know, let's look out the window and see what's 735 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: on the ground, and they will observe that there are 736 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,439 Speaker 1: magnolia pods all over the yard. So then I can 737 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: ask my daughter, and I've done this before, which is, hey, okay, 738 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: what else do you think could be causing that noise. 739 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: So now we're entering into this idea of blackham threachers, 740 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,720 Speaker 1: where we're going to gather as many hypotheses as possible, 741 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: and so she's come up with before you know, again, 742 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: the skeleton is a skeleton. It's trying to come down 743 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: the gym name get me um Or she has observed 744 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: that there's construction in our neighborhood, and she said that 745 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: it's a construction crane, and she thinks that it just 746 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: came down the street and crashed into our roof. Okay, 747 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: but she's already going from from least believable hypothesis to 748 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: a slightly more believable hypothesis. Yeah, because actually, if you 749 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: count the number of assumptions for all of the hypotheses, 750 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: you will see that the Magnoli pod is one assumption 751 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: it fell from the tree in Atlanta on the ground. 752 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 1: But a skeleton, well, that is requires the assumption that 753 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: even though it's dead, it doesn't have any flesh around 754 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: it somehow alive, it somehow has a functioning brain. Those 755 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: three it can scale a roof and show me down 756 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: a chimney that's for maybe even five um and then 757 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: it has some business with us. It's got some some 758 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,760 Speaker 1: reason for coming down the chimney and talking to us 759 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: about that too. Is it makes me think, well, to 760 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: make the skeleton down the chimney idea makes sense. You 761 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: really need a working um understanding of necromancy, which is 762 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,359 Speaker 1: just say, you need a fortress of ideas that has 763 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: been carefully constructed by adults to make the unlikely seem plausible. Yeah, 764 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,240 Speaker 1: you need so, I say five assumptions there, but really, 765 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: if you're going to detail, there's probably about a hundred 766 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: different assumptions there. So then you get to the crane 767 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: and now you have the crane down the street scenario 768 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 1: that it can operate on its own. That's an assumption 769 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: that it has somehow managed to make its way through 770 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: four houses and and and and still has momentum that 771 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: it has bumped into the roof, and that somehow, even 772 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: though it's bunched in the roof, there's no damage done 773 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: to our house. There's four assumptions. You're right, there's getting better. Yeah, 774 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: because if if the if the walking skeleton necromance, the 775 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: idea of that is like it's like a cathedral of 776 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: ideas with flying buttresses and stuff. Whereas the claim moving 777 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 1: on its own. That's more like a decent um cabin 778 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: in the woods, kind of fortress of ideas, modestly constructed 779 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: but still constructed. Nice. Nice. I like that, Yes, flying 780 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: buttresses as opposed to like a modest cabin. So you 781 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: present all those which I've done with my daughter before, 782 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: and she'll just laugh and say the magnolia pod because 783 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: then she's starting to understand that these are outrageous things. 784 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: But we've been able to talk about really cool different 785 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: ways that the world might work, which is the imagination 786 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: in the creativity part. But now she has something to 787 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 1: hold onto that is concrete, that is logical, that makes sense. Yeah, 788 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: so she can imagine the flying buttresses and the crazy 789 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 1: cathedral of ideas. I mean, everyone wants to be able 790 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: to imagine something that that rich and and and just engaging, 791 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, kind of like uh, like say Dante's Inferno. 792 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: I love that that's the cathedral ideas that there ever 793 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: was one. But when I actually think about how the 794 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: world works, I choose to go with a far more 795 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: modest construction of ideas um and certainly at times of 796 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 1: the less the less building there on the horizon, the better, 797 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: And you can actually see the world as it perhaps 798 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: really is now. Gothnick says that these cathedral of ideas, 799 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: this is really the evolutionary juice of our species. We 800 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 1: have to have this imagine a because she said, you know, 801 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: think about every single thing around you right now. Think 802 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: about this microphone in front of us. This was once 803 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: an idea in someone's head and it was part of 804 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: their imagination, and they just used their available knowledge to 805 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 1: create this thing. Uh, you know, given a couple of 806 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,240 Speaker 1: constructs of what is possible what is not possible. So 807 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: you know, she's saying that if you are um, a 808 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: human fifty thou years ago, this is incredibly important as well, 809 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: because you're trying to imagine or predict really what the 810 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: year is going to look for you. So you start 811 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 1: to really pay attention to seasons when some animals might 812 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: be migrating, right, and you start to sort of imagine 813 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,839 Speaker 1: yourself participating in this future self or this future part 814 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: of yourself. So again, just all of this is ah 815 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: I think, an evolutionary boon to us, this stability to imagine, create, 816 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,399 Speaker 1: play and essentially become scientists. All right, Well, on that note, 817 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: let's call over the robot and get some listener mail here. 818 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: The first one comes from a listener by the name 819 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,320 Speaker 1: of h. A. H A writes in and says, greetings 820 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: Robert and Julie, regarding your mention of Bloody Mary in 821 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: your recent podcast Light as a Feather Stiff as a Board. 822 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: I've always, personally, i albeit humorously, believed that the Bloody 823 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: Mary myth that she would appear of her name was 824 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: spoken a certain number of times in front of a 825 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 1: mirror was real, but that everybody that's tried it so 826 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: far had just gotten the number of times one has 827 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,760 Speaker 1: to say her name to invoke her wrong. I believe 828 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: the correct number is three hundred and thirty three. No, 829 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: I've never tried it anyway. Thank you for the entertaining 830 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: and informative podcast. We'll see there's a there's an interesting, 831 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 1: uh cathedral of ideas that only not a cathedral. But 832 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: let's say there's a modest cabin of ideas, and our 833 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,799 Speaker 1: listener here built a little extension. Well, yeah, what is 834 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: half of if you double three three, what is that? Well, 835 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: that would be six D sixty six. Yeah, so curious 836 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,919 Speaker 1: to know why it would be half of the devil's numbers, 837 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: and that their math is wrong, that the actually needs 838 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: to be doubled up or I don't know, maybe maybe 839 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 1: Bloody Mary is going to match that number on the 840 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 1: other side and then there then becomes complete. Well, it 841 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: reminds me of pretty much every attempt to predict to 842 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: the end of the world, be at the rapture or 843 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: something else. Inevitably that comes a point where that where 844 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: someone says, well, the math was wrong. We need to 845 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: do the math a little more correctly to figure out 846 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: exactly when the world's gonna end. So I'm sure if 847 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: if someone were to count up to thirty three, uh, 848 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 1: there would be a need to revise our predictions speaking 849 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: of when is the next end of the world, Oh 850 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,319 Speaker 1: like now or something that the mind calendar. When what's 851 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: happening right now outside the door? Oh yeah, that's what 852 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: that was. I just thought there was a lot of traffic. 853 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,800 Speaker 1: We also heard from a listener by the name of Kristen. 854 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,320 Speaker 1: Kristen writes and says, hey, guys, in the Maps episodes, 855 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: you talked about how humans are just wired to respond 856 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: to vertical and horizontal and diagonals and mess things up. 857 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: It triggered a memory for me three summers ago, I 858 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: visited my friend in Colorado and we went to an 859 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: old West type town. They had a mystery house there. 860 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: You went inside. It started out with the hallway floor 861 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: slanted at a slight angle, which was fine, and then 862 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: it opened up into this huge room and the floor 863 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,280 Speaker 1: there was at a forty five degree angle. I guess 864 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: my brain totally shut down because as soon as I 865 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 1: stepped into the room, I just fell down into the 866 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: wall and couldn't move or stop laughing. My friend's dad 867 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 1: had to help me out because I could not move. 868 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: L o l uh. It's my favorite memory. Thanks for 869 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,919 Speaker 1: the great podcast. That's because that draws us right into 870 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: the episode we did on Haunted Houses to how if 871 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: you screwed around with the shape of rooms and engage 872 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: more of that diagonal construction, then it throws us off. 873 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: It throws throws off our ability to predict what's going 874 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: to happen, our understanding where we are in a space. 875 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,399 Speaker 1: That's right because we have many more neurons that are 876 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,360 Speaker 1: dedicated to the X Y access than the diagonal access. 877 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: So it makes sense that our brain would like this 878 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,880 Speaker 1: very clean lines, and of course haunted houses like to 879 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: play with that idea, so that's fascinating. Thanks for writing 880 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,960 Speaker 1: into us, Kristen and h A. We always love to 881 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 1: hear from our our listeners and if you have anything 882 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 1: to add on this podcast, let us know. And we 883 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 1: know we have a lot of parents out there as 884 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,239 Speaker 1: their listeners, and then many more who have children in 885 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,480 Speaker 1: their lives, and many more still who are very talented artists, 886 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,239 Speaker 1: uh and creative people. We'd love to hear from you 887 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 1: guys as well. How do how does the child inside 888 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: you come out when you engage and creative act? Send 889 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:24,839 Speaker 1: us an example of what you do to We'd love 890 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: to share it on Facebook and let us know how 891 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: the young lauarvel human in your life, How they seem 892 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: to see the world around you, What kind of questions 893 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 1: are they asking, What unique inside are they bringing the 894 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: table when they construct their own fortress of ideas. You 895 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook, you can find us on tumbler. 896 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,319 Speaker 1: We are stuff to blow your mind on both of 897 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 1: those and on Twitter we go by the handle blow 898 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,560 Speaker 1: the Mind and you can always drop us a line 899 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 1: at Blow the Mind at discovery dot com. For more 900 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,240 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, visit how Stuff 901 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: Works dot com.