WEBVTT - COVID-19 Transmission is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.636 Bushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg COVID transmission. Is 0:00:26.316 --> 0:00:32.716 it is solvable? I truly believe that. That's epidemiologist Michael Minna, 0:00:33.436 --> 0:00:36.396 and his optimism isn't based on all the effort going 0:00:36.396 --> 0:00:40.436 into finding a vaccine. It's based on something that exists now. 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:44.876 Is are used for malaria, for stress, for all these 0:00:44.916 --> 0:00:47.676 different infections. They've been around for a very long time. 0:00:48.196 --> 0:00:51.116 Minna is excited about small scripts of paper about the 0:00:51.236 --> 0:00:54.556 length of your pinky finger. Those cheap pieces of paper 0:00:54.756 --> 0:00:59.596 would be used in millions of transmission indicating tests. These 0:00:59.636 --> 0:01:03.836 are called antigen tests and can identify when people are contagious. 0:01:04.356 --> 0:01:07.676 They can help to quickly contain community spread of the virus. 0:01:08.076 --> 0:01:10.956 And they're already in product option. So what's the catch? 0:01:12.036 --> 0:01:15.036 They aren't easy to get through the FDA. How long 0:01:15.076 --> 0:01:17.396 is it going to take for me, Malcolm Globbwell to 0:01:17.396 --> 0:01:19.476 be able to go to my drug store and buy 0:01:19.836 --> 0:01:22.676 a hundred of these strips for twenty five dollars and 0:01:23.436 --> 0:01:26.996 take one every morning. It's not just turning out to 0:01:27.036 --> 0:01:29.956 be a very very difficult task, but it's actually I think, 0:01:30.876 --> 0:01:35.316 inadvertently leading to potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of 0:01:35.356 --> 0:01:38.596 additional deaths that we don't need to be having. Michael 0:01:38.636 --> 0:01:42.396 Minna is an epidemiologist and immunologist at the Harvard School 0:01:42.436 --> 0:01:46.356 of Public Health and a physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital. 0:01:47.076 --> 0:01:52.596 My solution to defeating COVID is daily rapid tests that 0:01:52.676 --> 0:01:55.556 people could use in their homes every day to stop 0:01:55.636 --> 0:01:59.996 transmission of the virus everywhere. With people dying every day, 0:02:00.036 --> 0:02:03.276 there's no more time to waste. Doctor Minna spoke with 0:02:03.276 --> 0:02:06.476 my co host Malcolm Gladwell about how to solve the 0:02:06.516 --> 0:02:14.476 spread of COVID. Here's their conversation. I wanted to start 0:02:15.356 --> 0:02:18.676 with a really dumb, obvious question, which is, can you 0:02:18.716 --> 0:02:20.556 describe to me all the ways in which you can 0:02:20.636 --> 0:02:22.956 look for the presence of a virus that a human being. Well, 0:02:22.996 --> 0:02:27.636 that's not an obvious question at all. Within each virus, 0:02:27.756 --> 0:02:30.836 virus is just like any other thing. They have a 0:02:30.876 --> 0:02:33.476 genetic code, and then they have a bunch of proteins. 0:02:33.996 --> 0:02:37.316 And the genetic code of a virus is RNA, which 0:02:37.396 --> 0:02:41.476 is akin to a human's DNA. And so the same 0:02:41.516 --> 0:02:44.916 way that you could do a forensic investigation of a 0:02:44.956 --> 0:02:47.996 crime scene and use DNA to find if there was 0:02:48.036 --> 0:02:51.236 a human, a specific human at the crime scene, you 0:02:51.276 --> 0:02:55.356 can do a forensic investigation to look for RNA to 0:02:55.476 --> 0:02:57.916 know if there was RNA inside of a person. So 0:02:57.956 --> 0:02:59.996 that's one way, and that's this tool that these are 0:03:00.076 --> 0:03:03.196 molecular tools that we call PCR. And then there's a 0:03:03.196 --> 0:03:07.636 different way. Instead of using the genetic makeup and the 0:03:08.196 --> 0:03:10.636 RNA to look for the virus in this case, you 0:03:10.636 --> 0:03:13.476 could actually look for the proteins that make up the virus. 0:03:13.876 --> 0:03:17.076 And that's where these antigen tests really shine. So you 0:03:17.076 --> 0:03:19.236 can either look for the genetic code or you could 0:03:19.276 --> 0:03:21.876 look for the proteins. I like to call these rapid 0:03:21.876 --> 0:03:26.996 antigen tests transmission indicating tests. There's one other major way, 0:03:27.036 --> 0:03:30.036 which I'll just say quickly, and that's to look for 0:03:30.116 --> 0:03:33.836 the immunological response to the virus because humans are good 0:03:33.836 --> 0:03:37.116 at making immune responses to viruses. So it's a different way, 0:03:37.116 --> 0:03:40.916 and that's antibody based detection. But that's I put it 0:03:40.916 --> 0:03:44.916 in a whole different category because it usually comes after infection. Yeah, 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:48.956 So the first way looking for the RNA is the 0:03:49.076 --> 0:03:52.556 kind of gold standard. That's exactly right. And so if 0:03:52.596 --> 0:03:56.516 I go to the hospital and get a today and 0:03:56.596 --> 0:03:59.556 get a COVID test. They're looking for RNA. They're giving 0:03:59.596 --> 0:04:01.516 me they're using PCR to look to see if I 0:04:01.516 --> 0:04:03.556 have virus in my system. That's right, and what's the 0:04:03.636 --> 0:04:06.476 cheapest that a PCR test could produce a result? The 0:04:06.556 --> 0:04:08.836 actual price of a PCR test can be done for 0:04:09.316 --> 0:04:12.316 six bucks, maybe even less, so it can be really cheap. 0:04:12.356 --> 0:04:16.236 But the difference is the whole infrastructure around PCR tests. 0:04:16.236 --> 0:04:18.356 They have to be done in labs, so you have 0:04:18.476 --> 0:04:21.596 logistics of transport, you have all of the people working 0:04:21.636 --> 0:04:25.676 in the lab, robots, and so generally it really drives 0:04:25.716 --> 0:04:28.156 the cost up. And as we've seen, the average test 0:04:28.236 --> 0:04:31.516 costs anywhere from thirty dollars at the absolute low end 0:04:31.676 --> 0:04:34.596 up to one hundred and fifty dollars for some labs 0:04:34.596 --> 0:04:39.876 that are charging it. No contrast PCR two antigen tests. 0:04:40.196 --> 0:04:42.836 How do antigen tests? What do they look like and 0:04:42.956 --> 0:04:46.196 what's their cost in time profile? They look like a 0:04:46.276 --> 0:04:49.076 pregnancy test and they work like a pregnancy test. Actually, 0:04:49.596 --> 0:04:52.156 they can be made. It's a little piece of paper. 0:04:52.236 --> 0:04:55.396 Generally speaking, you put some of the sample, whether that 0:04:55.476 --> 0:04:58.876 be a swab that's been mixed with some sailing solution 0:04:59.396 --> 0:05:02.756 or saliva onto a paper strip and it shows up 0:05:02.756 --> 0:05:05.236 with a line it turns either, for example, red if 0:05:05.236 --> 0:05:08.316 it's positive or blue if it's negative, and those can 0:05:08.356 --> 0:05:12.716 be made in the huge numbers. They don't require instruments. 0:05:13.196 --> 0:05:15.396 They don't usually require instruments. There's a few on the 0:05:15.396 --> 0:05:18.316 market right now that to get the sensitivity at the 0:05:18.356 --> 0:05:22.156 FDA wanted, they have some instrumentation associated. But in reality 0:05:22.196 --> 0:05:25.916 these are used for malaria, for a strap for all 0:05:25.956 --> 0:05:28.836 these different infections. They've been around for a very long time, 0:05:29.356 --> 0:05:31.836 and they can be done just on a piece of 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:34.076 paper in five minutes, and they could get down to 0:05:34.356 --> 0:05:36.956 you can produce them for fractions of a dollar, and 0:05:36.956 --> 0:05:38.876 they might be sold to the public or built by 0:05:38.916 --> 0:05:41.756 the government for a dollar a piece or something on 0:05:41.876 --> 0:05:48.276 those lines. So you're you've been perhaps the leading public proponent, 0:05:48.796 --> 0:05:54.556 public health proponent of using antigen tests much more broadly 0:05:54.996 --> 0:05:58.996 to fight this pandemic. And I wanted to the first 0:05:58.996 --> 0:06:03.076 time I heard you give this argument. You convinced me 0:06:03.116 --> 0:06:06.476 in about two minutes. And I still don't understand why 0:06:06.996 --> 0:06:09.076 why don't we have this system? Because I can imagine 0:06:09.156 --> 0:06:11.516 in a world where if it's this, if they're cheap 0:06:11.556 --> 0:06:14.156 and that easy, then you know, every kid before they 0:06:14.196 --> 0:06:16.636 went to school in the morning, we'd take one of 0:06:16.636 --> 0:06:19.796 these fifty cents or one dollar tests and if they 0:06:19.796 --> 0:06:22.036 were positive, they would stay home, and if they're negative, 0:06:22.076 --> 0:06:24.796 we would know they could go to school. Like or 0:06:24.876 --> 0:06:26.516 if I want to go to a restaurant, why can't 0:06:26.556 --> 0:06:29.036 I just set stand in the vestiable of the restaurant, 0:06:29.076 --> 0:06:30.956 take the test and wait for my response and if 0:06:30.996 --> 0:06:34.076 i'm if I'm negative, I get to go to the restaurant. 0:06:34.116 --> 0:06:37.196 Like it just strikes me as this is a way 0:06:37.196 --> 0:06:39.436 to get going again. Why are we not doing this? 0:06:39.556 --> 0:06:41.836 Can you explain that I can? And I have a 0:06:41.836 --> 0:06:44.196 few theories. I mean, they're not just theories, they're there. 0:06:44.956 --> 0:06:46.716 I'm in the middle of all of this. And so 0:06:47.476 --> 0:06:50.596 these tests because of this whole sensitivity issue. Early in 0:06:50.716 --> 0:06:53.236 March or a really in January, the world decided that 0:06:53.276 --> 0:06:57.116 PCR was a gold standard for these tests. And I 0:06:57.156 --> 0:07:00.156 don't think and I know that this well, maybe we'll 0:07:00.196 --> 0:07:03.156 come across wrong for some people, but there hasn't been 0:07:03.196 --> 0:07:06.756 enough thought placed into what exactly does the PCR test 0:07:06.876 --> 0:07:10.516 mean and is it the right gold standard? The only 0:07:10.676 --> 0:07:15.116 pathway that we have to evaluate tests like this in 0:07:15.116 --> 0:07:19.556 the United states are medical diagnostic pathways. They are pathways 0:07:19.596 --> 0:07:24.356 designed specifically to ensure that a physician like a detective, 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:27.996 is getting all of the information they need to diagnose 0:07:28.156 --> 0:07:31.276 a sick person in front of them. So it's really 0:07:31.316 --> 0:07:35.356 been first and foremost a regulatory hurdle. We have so 0:07:35.556 --> 0:07:40.836 devalued and defunded public health across our country and really 0:07:40.876 --> 0:07:44.396 across the world, that we actually didn't we don't have 0:07:44.436 --> 0:07:47.596 a regulatory pathway to approve a test who is primary 0:07:47.596 --> 0:07:51.876 objective is one of stopping an epidemic versus one of 0:07:51.916 --> 0:07:55.996 diagnosing a sick person, and that has really led that's 0:07:55.996 --> 0:07:58.556 held everything up. All of the companies that could be 0:07:58.596 --> 0:08:01.796 producing these these really rapid tests in the millions and millions, 0:08:02.436 --> 0:08:06.276 they have been sitting on these tests, trying to hone them, 0:08:06.276 --> 0:08:08.636 trying to get them just a little bit better, just 0:08:08.676 --> 0:08:10.516 a little bit better so that the so that they 0:08:10.556 --> 0:08:15.636 can pass their FDA standards as a medical diagnostic. It's 0:08:15.676 --> 0:08:18.796 not just slowing down their approval and getting them out 0:08:18.836 --> 0:08:22.916 to the public. It's actually bottlenecking the companies into creating 0:08:22.956 --> 0:08:25.876 tests that are not going to be as scalable because 0:08:25.876 --> 0:08:28.876 they're having to use more expensive reagents they're starting to 0:08:29.436 --> 0:08:32.676 put them with instruments and package them more. You know, 0:08:32.716 --> 0:08:37.076 they have to actually become more expensive, highly manufactured tests, 0:08:37.516 --> 0:08:41.036 when in reality they're just these little pieces of paper 0:08:41.916 --> 0:08:43.876 that if we can do the cheap version of them, 0:08:43.916 --> 0:08:46.876 they could be made very fast. But they just won't 0:08:46.876 --> 0:08:49.916 get through the FDA at the moment, And I don't. 0:08:50.676 --> 0:08:53.916 I'm still so I find it, So I find your explanation. 0:08:53.956 --> 0:08:57.436 I'm convincing. How dumb is the FDA, Like, don't they 0:08:57.516 --> 0:09:01.036 understand that they can't be they can't be a group 0:09:01.076 --> 0:09:03.596 of people who are wholly wedded to only one way 0:09:03.596 --> 0:09:06.996 of understanding how to deal with the virus. You can't 0:09:07.876 --> 0:09:09.916 if you make the exact argument you just made to me, 0:09:10.516 --> 0:09:13.636 to someone at the FDA, who is everybody is smart 0:09:13.716 --> 0:09:17.076 or smarter than I am and knows a mountain more 0:09:17.156 --> 0:09:21.596 about medicine, they're not going to say, I see a logic. Well, 0:09:21.636 --> 0:09:23.516 you know, it's not that they're not smart, it's that 0:09:23.596 --> 0:09:27.756 this is a regulatory body. They just don't have a pathway. 0:09:27.596 --> 0:09:31.236 They literally you can't go and apply for FDA approval 0:09:31.236 --> 0:09:34.436 for a public health test tool. In fact, they say 0:09:33.676 --> 0:09:36.636 it strongly in their FA ces and their facts that 0:09:36.756 --> 0:09:42.116 say we do not evaluate public health tools, and so 0:09:42.196 --> 0:09:44.676 that might make you say, well, that's great, so why 0:09:44.716 --> 0:09:49.636 bother getting FDA approval. Unfortunately, these tests are defined by 0:09:49.676 --> 0:09:53.356 the FDA as clinical diagnostic tests, which has a pretty 0:09:53.356 --> 0:09:57.276 broad definition of a test that gives somebody information about 0:09:57.316 --> 0:10:01.596 themselves that could cause them to change their behavior is 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:06.356 a clinical diagnostic test. So this is this catch twenty 0:10:06.356 --> 0:10:07.796 two where they're saying, you know, we don't want to 0:10:07.796 --> 0:10:09.916 have anything to do with public health the proving public 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:13.836 health tools, but we also don't want to change our 0:10:13.876 --> 0:10:17.116 definition to allow you to say that that's not a 0:10:17.116 --> 0:10:20.156 clinical diagnostic test. And so they've gotten stuck in this 0:10:20.236 --> 0:10:26.276 regulatory bureacratic nightmare of just regulation for regulation's sake. And 0:10:26.316 --> 0:10:29.116 there is precedent at the FDA, for example, to think 0:10:29.156 --> 0:10:32.596 about public health tools. Vaccines are one of them. They 0:10:32.596 --> 0:10:35.236 have outright been willing to say we will accept a 0:10:35.316 --> 0:10:39.996 vaccine that has fifty percent efficacy, and that's because, whether 0:10:40.036 --> 0:10:43.596 they recognize it or not, they're taking into account the 0:10:43.676 --> 0:10:46.676 public good part of a vaccine that they understand that 0:10:46.716 --> 0:10:49.996 it will lead to herd immunity. But they have none 0:10:49.996 --> 0:10:53.356 of that thinking in diagnostic tests because it's just driven 0:10:53.396 --> 0:10:58.316 by this very antiquated view of what a diagnostic test means. 0:10:58.316 --> 0:11:01.916 And in our country everything has been you know, the 0:11:02.156 --> 0:11:06.836 medical establishment is extremely strong. We can't we can't. You 0:11:06.876 --> 0:11:09.756 can't go to get a cholesterol test without getting a 0:11:09.836 --> 0:11:13.356 prescription from your doctor, Like, why is that not? Why 0:11:13.396 --> 0:11:15.356 can't we know that? You know, it's all through this 0:11:15.676 --> 0:11:19.716 very very heavy medical lens and changing that moving, getting 0:11:19.756 --> 0:11:22.636 that that big ship to turn is turning. You know, 0:11:22.676 --> 0:11:25.596 it's not just turning out to be a very very 0:11:25.596 --> 0:11:29.956 difficult task, but it's actually, I think inadvertently leading to 0:11:30.516 --> 0:11:34.076 potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of additional deaths that 0:11:34.156 --> 0:11:36.036 we don't need to be having. You know what this 0:11:36.076 --> 0:11:39.796 reminds me of. There's a fascinating book that was written 0:11:39.836 --> 0:11:43.436 about tanks. Tanks are invented in the First World War 0:11:43.476 --> 0:11:45.036 and then they just kind of sit on the shelf 0:11:45.076 --> 0:11:48.636 for twenty years. Everyone realizes they're a breakthrough in a 0:11:48.716 --> 0:11:51.076 revolution and they've changed war for forever, but no one 0:11:51.076 --> 0:11:54.676 can figure out who where to put them? Do they 0:11:54.676 --> 0:11:57.636 belong with the infantry? Not really right? Should they take 0:11:57.676 --> 0:11:59.836 the place of cavalry? Will kind of but those guys 0:11:59.836 --> 0:12:01.556 are really into horses, you know, like you can go 0:12:01.556 --> 0:12:04.316 on and on like and they can't. So literally it 0:12:04.356 --> 0:12:06.516 just sits around for twenty and then the Germans, who 0:12:06.996 --> 0:12:10.356 don't have a military, was destroyed by the Allies. They 0:12:10.356 --> 0:12:12.516 get to start over and they put it. They knew 0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:14.396 where to put them right because they're starting from scratch. 0:12:14.636 --> 0:12:17.756 They don't have any legacy systems that are inhibiting them. 0:12:18.396 --> 0:12:20.916 How I want to go back to how many different 0:12:22.596 --> 0:12:27.436 companies are could make one of these things if asked, 0:12:27.516 --> 0:12:29.356 and how fast would it? I mean, if I want 0:12:29.396 --> 0:12:31.516 to said, let's say the FDA Commission comes to you, 0:12:31.596 --> 0:12:35.076 Michael and says, okay, you win, rest go tomorrow. How 0:12:35.076 --> 0:12:37.516 long is it going to take for me, Malcolm Globbel, 0:12:37.556 --> 0:12:39.436 to be able to go to my drug store and 0:12:39.476 --> 0:12:43.116 buy one hundred of these strips for twenty five dollars 0:12:43.156 --> 0:12:48.036 and take one every morning. Yep. So they're actually becoming 0:12:48.076 --> 0:12:51.996 available now sort of. Abbot just came out with a 0:12:52.036 --> 0:12:54.476 new test called the Buynex. Now it's it's literally a 0:12:54.476 --> 0:12:59.276 piece of cardboard. And these have now been approved but 0:12:59.356 --> 0:13:02.916 only for medical diagnostic use again because they're being approved 0:13:02.916 --> 0:13:06.756 through the FDA, and so they're being approved for a 0:13:06.796 --> 0:13:10.116 physician to order, for example, for patients, they'll be able 0:13:10.156 --> 0:13:12.676 to make about a million a day, but again that's 0:13:12.676 --> 0:13:15.716 because they're the slightly more manufactured ones. If you take 0:13:15.756 --> 0:13:19.076 one of these super simple paper strip tests, the blueprints 0:13:19.076 --> 0:13:21.996 for how to make these are publicly available, no IP. 0:13:22.756 --> 0:13:26.876 You can get royalty free, non exclusive rights to just 0:13:27.036 --> 0:13:31.276 produce these, And I think governments should just be contracting 0:13:31.276 --> 0:13:35.676 with major manufacturers, manufacturers that have the machines to make them, 0:13:35.716 --> 0:13:39.236 but it's not particularly sophisticated machines needed to make these things. 0:13:40.076 --> 0:13:43.076 In our case. The US government should be should just 0:13:43.116 --> 0:13:47.196 be taking the reins and creating a Manhattan Project like 0:13:47.396 --> 0:13:50.756 effort to just say, print thirty million of these a 0:13:50.836 --> 0:13:54.036 day for thirty million Americans to use every day. And 0:13:54.076 --> 0:13:56.436 if everyone's using it every three days, then you've covering 0:13:56.556 --> 0:14:00.556 ninety million Americans could be using these tests every third day. 0:14:00.796 --> 0:14:03.556 That is more than enough to suppress all of the 0:14:03.596 --> 0:14:07.316 outbreaks where they're occurring today. How can you describe how 0:14:07.636 --> 0:14:15.476 your experience trying to promote this idea has made you feel? Oh? Well, um, 0:14:16.236 --> 0:14:20.796 I would say it's um, it's been it's been fraught. 0:14:21.116 --> 0:14:25.036 I would say, I think it's It's been a reality 0:14:25.196 --> 0:14:28.156 check that you know, we are in a culture and 0:14:28.236 --> 0:14:33.516 country and world that is so driven by regulation. We've 0:14:33.556 --> 0:14:36.396 just overregulated in some ways. And I'm not against regulation 0:14:36.396 --> 0:14:40.876 by any means, but when we can't recognize that there 0:14:40.956 --> 0:14:45.116 is a national, a global crisis happening and come up 0:14:45.116 --> 0:14:49.716 with different, more creative pathways, you know, this is a tool. 0:14:49.836 --> 0:14:54.196 There is no vaccine coming tomorrow for us. Social distancing 0:14:54.596 --> 0:14:58.196 clearly isn't working to suppress all the outbreaks masks. People 0:14:58.196 --> 0:15:00.396 aren't choosing to wear them in much of the country 0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:03.476 and the world, and here it is. This is a 0:15:03.516 --> 0:15:06.676 test that can that can be made for pennies essentially 0:15:06.916 --> 0:15:10.716 charged a dollar that could actually really serve to sit 0:15:10.796 --> 0:15:14.996 in for vaccines until they come about. I mean, people 0:15:14.996 --> 0:15:18.116 are dying still, you know, people like we're becoming complacent, 0:15:18.596 --> 0:15:22.956 and that's just that's the frustration part, and that is 0:15:23.076 --> 0:15:26.996 generally what is the first gut reaction when you ask 0:15:27.036 --> 0:15:30.236 me that question. But at the same time, this is 0:15:30.276 --> 0:15:32.756 an idea that has caught on it and it has 0:15:32.836 --> 0:15:35.956 gotten a huge number of people. You know, it's kind 0:15:35.956 --> 0:15:37.916 of created a movement, i would say, and that has 0:15:37.916 --> 0:15:41.356 been just so inspiring. The number of people across all 0:15:41.436 --> 0:15:44.196 every single day. Not a day has gone by for 0:15:44.316 --> 0:15:47.996 months now where I haven't gotten emails from everyone from 0:15:48.036 --> 0:15:51.596 governors of states and prime ministers of countries down to 0:15:52.316 --> 0:15:55.756 literally people who say, you know, I'm out of my 0:15:55.836 --> 0:16:00.516 job right now. I have no no idea you know 0:16:00.556 --> 0:16:04.476 anything about infectious diseases. I'm usually whatever their job is, 0:16:04.556 --> 0:16:06.596 and but how can I help? You know? I want 0:16:06.596 --> 0:16:08.556 to help with this cause. And so it's been amazing 0:16:08.556 --> 0:16:12.036 to see the pouring by the average person in the 0:16:12.076 --> 0:16:16.436 public to really try to help get these things moving 0:16:16.676 --> 0:16:21.276 and to help move the needle in whatever capacity that 0:16:21.396 --> 0:16:23.996 might be. So that's been pretty it's just been inspiring 0:16:23.996 --> 0:16:27.556 and amazing to me. Are the things our listeners can 0:16:27.596 --> 0:16:33.476 do to make this solution more likely. First, get more information, 0:16:34.356 --> 0:16:37.556 and we've actually set up with well I barely did anything, 0:16:37.636 --> 0:16:39.996 but there's been this kind of small army of people 0:16:40.036 --> 0:16:42.796 who are springing up to really help with these issues 0:16:43.156 --> 0:16:45.356 and pushing the FDA in the government in the right direction. 0:16:45.796 --> 0:16:49.756 And that's rapid tests dot org one word, rapid tests 0:16:49.916 --> 0:16:53.796 dot org. And there's we're trying to fill that website 0:16:53.796 --> 0:16:57.156 in with increasing amounts of information. There's even links I 0:16:57.196 --> 0:17:00.276 believe at this point to help people and create letters 0:17:00.316 --> 0:17:03.916 to the representatives. There's been some really nice articles. If 0:17:03.916 --> 0:17:06.516 people want to follow me on Twitter, I tend to 0:17:06.556 --> 0:17:08.676 write about it a lot on Twitter and I try 0:17:08.676 --> 0:17:11.876 to be a responsive to people, and so my Twitter 0:17:11.916 --> 0:17:16.116 handle is Michael Minna Underscore Lab. But all of that aside, 0:17:16.156 --> 0:17:18.156 I think one of the best things that people can 0:17:18.196 --> 0:17:22.436 do right now is to actually let their leaders and 0:17:22.476 --> 0:17:24.916 their representatives that whether it be at the county level, 0:17:24.956 --> 0:17:28.476 their state leaders, and their federal leaders know that that 0:17:29.036 --> 0:17:31.756 you know, this has been dragging on too long. Rapid 0:17:31.796 --> 0:17:35.756 tests still have not become available. They are a solution that, 0:17:35.836 --> 0:17:38.516 along with all of the other things like social distancing 0:17:38.516 --> 0:17:42.356 and masks, will really help to combat this virus. And 0:17:42.396 --> 0:17:45.836 we need to have date and federal leadership getting on 0:17:45.876 --> 0:17:50.796 board to help get these through approval processes quicker and 0:17:51.476 --> 0:17:55.276 help get the production of these, ideally from the federal 0:17:55.316 --> 0:17:57.836 government up to speed and have tens of millions of 0:17:57.836 --> 0:18:00.316 these produced every day. And yeah, and I think it's 0:18:00.316 --> 0:18:02.356 already working, which is the good thing to keep the 0:18:02.436 --> 0:18:06.236 momentum up. One last question, why isn't there or is 0:18:06.316 --> 0:18:10.636 there a black market in these tests? I mean, there's 0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:13.836 a you know, I don't use cocaine, but if I 0:18:13.836 --> 0:18:16.396 wanted to use cocaine, I'm pretty sure I could get it. 0:18:17.036 --> 0:18:19.076 I don't understand why if these things are cheap and 0:18:19.116 --> 0:18:21.876 easy to make, and they have such a profound impact 0:18:21.916 --> 0:18:26.036 on people's lives, why isn't there a thriving underground economy 0:18:26.076 --> 0:18:29.796 and giving us cheap, cheap manage in tests. Well, i'd 0:18:29.836 --> 0:18:31.516 be lying if I if I were to say, I 0:18:31.556 --> 0:18:34.316 haven't thought a lot about just importing them from other countries, 0:18:34.676 --> 0:18:37.316 you know, But I think it's because we do still 0:18:37.356 --> 0:18:40.876 have laws, and we still have you know, tests aren't 0:18:41.276 --> 0:18:43.916 so extreme. You know, I might get there if they're 0:18:43.916 --> 0:18:46.036 really not get approved. At the end of the day, 0:18:46.036 --> 0:18:48.636 they can just sell them legally in other countries at 0:18:48.676 --> 0:18:51.476 the moment. So why bother doing something illegal in the 0:18:51.556 --> 0:18:54.276 US when you know they can sell them elsewhere? Where? 0:18:54.756 --> 0:18:56.516 Where can I buy them? What country can I buy 0:18:56.556 --> 0:19:00.036 them legally in? Well, South Korea is making There's at 0:19:00.116 --> 0:19:02.716 least two companies. There's more. I'm sure South Korea has 0:19:02.756 --> 0:19:05.756 a company called SD Biosensor, and they're they're actually exporting 0:19:05.756 --> 0:19:09.116 them all over the world. Now, Canada in a nano 0:19:09.156 --> 0:19:12.076 he is starting to produce them, and they're I'm guessing 0:19:12.076 --> 0:19:16.196 going for FDA clearance. But India is making them. Singapore, 0:19:16.196 --> 0:19:18.676 I believe, has some that they're making, so we're starting 0:19:18.716 --> 0:19:21.116 to see them. I think even Senegal is producing them, 0:19:21.156 --> 0:19:26.956 but South Koreans have the highest volume that they're currently making. Yeah, 0:19:26.956 --> 0:19:29.876 thank you so much. This is totally fascinating. I am 0:19:29.916 --> 0:19:35.556 once again filled with righteous anger at the inability of 0:19:35.876 --> 0:19:39.236 our regulatarized system to handle. I mean, it's just not 0:19:39.996 --> 0:19:42.116 it's just like it doesn't seem like that big of 0:19:42.116 --> 0:19:44.556 a jump, Like it doesn't seem that hard given the 0:19:44.636 --> 0:19:48.556 fact that this whole thing's costing is I agree, I 0:19:48.636 --> 0:19:51.156 just it's frustrating, but I would I do have to 0:19:51.196 --> 0:19:53.476 say that, you know, the FDA has been willing to 0:19:53.916 --> 0:19:57.276 come to the table more frequently, and actually we're having 0:19:57.276 --> 0:20:00.356 the conversations, so maybe they're starting to to really warm 0:20:00.436 --> 0:20:03.036 up to it. You know. I feel like, if you 0:20:03.076 --> 0:20:05.996 can you can convince the FDA on this one, you 0:20:06.076 --> 0:20:09.076 deserve not just a metal but one of those statutes. 0:20:12.316 --> 0:20:16.236 I will hold chip in for the statue. Well, well, 0:20:16.236 --> 0:20:18.756 thank you. I'm going to keep fighting this fight until 0:20:18.796 --> 0:20:21.036 and see it through until we start defeating COVID one 0:20:21.036 --> 0:20:26.236 way or the other. Michael Minne is an epidemiologist and 0:20:26.316 --> 0:20:29.356 immunologist at the Harvard School of Public Health and a 0:20:29.396 --> 0:20:32.796 physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital. Remember to check out 0:20:32.836 --> 0:20:35.516 our show notes for links to the suggestions our guests 0:20:35.516 --> 0:20:39.276 make for ways that you can get involved. Next week, Unsolvable, 0:20:39.396 --> 0:20:43.036 we'll hear from chemist Eric Apple about a new solution 0:20:43.116 --> 0:20:47.356 for fighting wildfires before they start. And here's the teaser. 0:20:47.676 --> 0:20:51.156 It involves laying down something like a real life force field. 0:20:51.676 --> 0:20:55.036 You won't want to miss that conversation. Solvable is brought 0:20:55.036 --> 0:20:57.876 to you by Pushkin Industries. Our show is produced by 0:20:57.956 --> 0:21:02.796 Camille Baptista, Senior producer Jocelyn Frame. Catherine Girardo is our 0:21:02.876 --> 0:21:06.996 managing producer, and our executive producer is Mia Loebell. I'm 0:21:07.116 --> 0:21:07.956 Jacob Weisberg.