WEBVTT - Talking to Venezuelans about Venezuela 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.560 Also media. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:07.400 Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.520 It's meet James and I'm very lucky to be joined 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:15.120 by Marianne today. He's an outspoken member of the Venezuelan diaspora, 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:19.759 a writer, photographer, and we're gonna talk today a little 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:24.040 bit about our shared frustration with the left in this 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.120 country talking about Venezuelan people, but not two Venezuelan people. 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:28.320 So thanks for joining me. 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:29.960 Tonight, Thank you for having me. 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.360 Yeah, this is something that we've been trying to put 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:35.080 together for a while, and I'm really glad that we're 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.760 finally doing it. So I guess if I can just 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.199 frame this discussion. We've spoken about this extensively, so like 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:44.640 I'm sure we won't need much much prompting. I do 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:48.400 not understand how people arrive at a position of identifying 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:50.520 as being leftists if they don't love and care about 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.320 other people, And if you love and care about other people, 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.520 then you should listen to them. And I am appalled 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:02.720 at the discourse about Venezuela which is happening without Venezuelan voices. 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:03.800 For the most. 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.120 Part, where people will talk to Venezuelan's are all in 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:09.920 the US press. It's far too often people in the 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.720 diaspora who are talking to the right wing of media 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.800 and highlighting like what are sometimes recent objections to madulas, 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:23.440 sometimes which are completely insane, but it's it's a complete 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:25.319 failing of us on the left to not talk to 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.680 people from Venezuela. Maybe you could just share with us, 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.600 like how it's been since January to see it offered 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:34.520 it as a binary right. You can either exist on 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.280 the maduro and people can live in poverty and suffer, 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:44.080 or you can watch your country get bombed and choose 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.160 like mcm like and none of this is happening. 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:49.440 Was asking you what you would like, Can you like 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:50.520 share how that's been. 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.800 Oh my god, it's been. It's been a wild ride. 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:59.720 I mean, there's a lot of different emotions going on, 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.800 which is one of the things that I think a 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:07.320 lot of people don't understand that are not Venezuelan. But yeah, 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:09.200 just a lot of emotions. I mean, I remember when 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:14.640 it first happened, I immediately messaged my family back home, so 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:19.920 my brother, my mom, my grandparents. My family is not 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.480 from Karaka, so they were all right. They were just saying, 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:25.600 you know, it's calm where where we are, it's fine. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:30.200 But yeah, the immediate thing was concerned. Then obviously I 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.920 couldn't sleep that night because of everything that was going on. 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:36.680 I live in Europe, so by that time, it was like, 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.639 I don't know, it was like five in the morning 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:41.360 or something, eight in the morning. 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:42.160 I don't remember. 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.360 It's all just a blur to me now, but I 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.560 remember I was just like on my phone seeing the 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.880 updates like every minute, trying to contact my friends who 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:56.720 did live in Karakas, and they were just saying, yeah, 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.040 like we hear bombs. We don't know what's going on. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.240 And then eventually, like some people started saying that they 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:09.440 bombed liked some strategic military bases or like in Paracio 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.720 Mira Flores, which is the presidential house, and so everyone 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.680 was like all over the place, and then we got 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.919 all this information that they took Maduro whatever. And then 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:26.639 at that point it was just like Okay, concern, worry, confusion, 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:32.200 and then joy because not because the place was bombed 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:37.040 by Americans, but because this guy was like taken away 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:38.560 who he deserves. 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:39.880 Worse than prison, to be honest. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:44.840 But then concern again because what are the Americans going 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.440 to do now? So it was just a lot of 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:52.720 different things going on. Like I think a lot of people, 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:58.800 including myself, were just like paralyzed by all these different emotions, 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:03.440 like joy because again, this guy who has done horrible 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.920 things to the Venezuelan people is now paying for his 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.920 crime somewhere, but at the same time, fear because of 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.600 what is going to happen next. I mean, we're not dumb, 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.599 we know what the US is capable of. So it 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.560 was a little bit of both of those feelings after 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:25.000 we knew what had happened, and ever since then it 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:30.400 has been just a struggle because of course there's a 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:34.880 lot of misinformation going out there. It's been frustrating because 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:40.240 I see many of my people's voices being silenced by 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.479 people on the left. And then also you have a 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.599 lot of people on the right like appropriating our narrative 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:51.080 to like push their own pro American propaganda whatever. So 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:55.560 it's kind of just like everyone's trying to like appropriate 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.119 or steal their own narrative and suffering for their own gain, 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.039 and the left and the right are doing both like equally. Yeah, 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:07.120 So it has been kind of frustrating because I mean, 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.279 every time I even just try to leave a comment 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:16.160 on Instagram or say something I'm called fascist, like Trump supporters, 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:23.040 Cia Masade agent whatever. And you know, it's frustrating to 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.479 see so many people because most of the people I 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:30.359 follow are like leftists, right, but I've unfollowed like seventy 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.400 percent of the people I used to follow because they 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:36.320 started posting like Promaduro stuff and talking about how he 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.880 was so great whatever. And you know, it has been 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:44.680 very defeating to feel like we don't have anywhere to 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.720 go to nobody supporting us, because again, one side just 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.240 wants to rob us from our resources and seal a 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.440 narrative to like push their own agenda. But then the 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.960 other side is like completely denying or calling us like 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:03.400 all these horrible things to also steal our narrative. Right, 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:09.880 So it has been really frustrating and scary and isolating. Yeah, 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.760 it has been a lot, to the point where I think, 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:14.599 I mean, do I even have a place in the 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.560 world of nobody wants to hear my voice? So it 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:23.760 has been very difficult, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, very disheartening. 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:28.000 But then yeah, like that's why I told you about 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.479 the baseball thing recently. It was kind of like a 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:35.119 positive thing, like a because one of the good things 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.000 about that game is that people were finally like getting 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.080 to know us and how we're actually good people, and 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.560 that was kind of like a pick me up after 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.559 how horrible life has been since January third. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:56.599 So yeah, yeah, yeah, like people obviously like undervalue spot 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.479 I think they do. I wrote a book about sport 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.360 and anti fact some kind of predispersed to this disposition. 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.600 But like, these moments of joy are really important, and 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:08.760 like the God knows the world tries to rob us 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.200 of joy at the moment, so we should embrace them 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.120 and enjoy them and not feel like we are like 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.640 obliged to be sad because of all the sadness in 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:22.000 our worlds. Yeah, I think something you said there, like 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.560 struck home with me are two things I guess let's 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:29.880 address the first one. It is fundamentally a colonial impulse 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:35.160 to steal someone's narrative and assume that they're incapable of 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:38.640 speaking for themselves, so you must speak for them, right Like. 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:43.160 That is something that I have seen not just now, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.120 but for years about Venezuela. Right Like, it must have 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:52.280 been really frustrating to see this kind of camp pissed 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:58.160 tendency to to literally steal like the voice of Venezuelan 0:07:58.240 --> 0:07:59.600 people and speak on their behalf. 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:02.400 Yeah, that's nothing new though. 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.960 I mean I remember when I was in college it 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.080 was kind of the same, Like there were I think 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.840 it was like twenty seventeen, there were some protests and 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.600 people were saying all sorts of things, and I remember 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:17.960 losing a lot of my friends in college because of that, 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.000 because I was saying, like, you know, it's more complicated 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.600 than that, like you know, actually people do dislike this 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:28.920 person for this, this and this reason. And yeah, I 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.000 remember losing a lot of friends because of that. Maybe 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:35.880 not a mental breakdown, because it was just like a life, right. 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:36.920 Yeah. 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.520 I remember even at one point I went to like 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.640 a cafe. It was one of these like calfes where 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.559 people right on the walls and it said like fuck Venezuelans, 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.960 and I was just like, what a fucking dystopia am 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.520 I living in? And I also used to work at 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.480 a front desk and this guy somehow found out that 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.400 I was Venezuelan and he started saying like, oh, Madulu's 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.680 the best, like whatever, and my boss had to come 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:04.839 in and like take the guy away because he was 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:06.800 just being really like rowdy. 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.400 Right, So yeah, it's calm. 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.240 Yeah, in fact of us, like when we introduce ourselves, 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:18.280 like we don't say that we're Venezuelan immediately just because it. 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:19.760 Can be dangerous at times. 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.440 So yeah, especially now we have this combination of like 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.920 we've discussed this, but like on the on the right, 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.960 then it's when people are all perceived to be fucking 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.840 members of trend Ragua now and then yeah it's that 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.160 or you line up behind the regime. And even when 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.000 those two things, like they're not as distinct as people 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.640 you know sometimes in their imagination see them, or that 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:44.520 they're also not as joint does other people in their 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.600 imagination see them. Yeah, it doesn't give you a place 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.000 to express your identity, right, you just have to fit 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.840 into someone else's box. Yeah, something else you said really 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.440 struck me, Like there seems to be and again it's 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.240 like it's not distinct from the colonial impulse, right, I 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:04.120 think about the uplift civilized and Christianized or the white 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.720 man's burden, or these notions of people who were subject 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.880 to colonial violence being lesser than or incapable of, and like, 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:14.880 what are the things I see? It is like the 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:19.040 idea that Venezuelan people are not aware of United States imperialism. 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:23.600 I lived with Chilean's in Caracas in like the first 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.959 decade of this century, right, Like, people were very extremely 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.000 fucking aware. Like I lived with people who are being 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.800 tortured because of because of United States imperialism. They've played 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.240 me to have our records and then told me how 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:37.800 they chopped his hands off. 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.439 Right, Like, Yeah, you're a person on the left. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.840 You have an understanding of the world and world politics, 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.439 and you've studied and traveled. But like there is a 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.280 cultural understanding of this, right which does not require one 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.880 to attend university. Can you explain how people because people 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.000 are weighing on the one hand, we have this malordal 0:10:55.000 --> 0:11:00.160 regime which is killing people, which has imprisoning people, and 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.359 which is acting as a fundamental constraint on our autonomy. 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.520 And on the other hand, we have the Americans dropping bombs, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.280 so we know what the Americans have done, Yeah to 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:11.680 this part of the world. If you could just talk 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:13.480 on that a little bit, explain how people live with 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:14.600 that balance. 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.520 I think it's a combination of multiple things. So first, 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:23.120 I mean, for many years, the government horribly mismanaged the 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.640 country and then blamed the US for everything that went wrong. 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:28.600 I mean, there were moments in. 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.720 Which we knew and had proof that these problems were 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:35.280 coming directly from the regime's actions, and yet so many 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.000 times they simply lied about it and said that it 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:40.680 was the US's fault, to the point where many of 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:44.040 us were, you know, simply desensitized to the idea of 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.920 US intervention. It's a case of the boy who cried 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.640 a wolf, but in this case, it was the dictator 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:50.800 who cried intervention. 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:51.720 Yeah. 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.160 Second of all, I mean, for many years now, every 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:59.720 cent made from our country's resources have gone everywhere except 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.480 to the people. Our resources have been going to other 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.960 country let's say Russia and China, just to name a couple, 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.120 and yet we, the Venezuelan people, have not seen a 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.760 single scent of that. So at this point, we're used 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.960 to being exploited and we're used to being cheated. So 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.440 when people in the US say, hey, the US only 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.640 wants to steal your oil, or hey, like they're going 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.000 to exploit your country, it's ignoring the fact that we 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:31.600 have already been living through that very same thing for decades, 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:36.439 and many believe that our material reality won't be affected 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:41.160 just because now it's someone else stealing our resources. If anything, 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.480 people are willing to see if these new guys aka 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:49.080 the US might do things differently now, whether that's right 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:53.320 or not. What it really speaks to, I think is 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.400 I guess my final point, which is that people are desperate. 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.679 Every time a leftist says, oh, your life is about 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.240 to get so much worse or so bad or whatever, 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.600 they say that without knowing how bad things have already gotten. 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.319 I mean, I remember going to school during like the 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:16.400 worst parts of the famine and seeing like a skeletal 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.600 dead body lying on the street. Like that's an image 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.960 I still have nightmares with. And I mean for a time, 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.760 I remember someone I knew dying or being killed every 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:28.680 single week. 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:30.760 The abuse and. 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.760 The torture we've endured at the hands of this regime. 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:37.040 I mean, anyone can google, like what's going on in 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.400 places like Elllikoire or La Pumba or any of the 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.560 other torture centers in the country. I mean, people experience 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:52.440 mock in real executions, getting electrocuted like by their genitals, rape, 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:56.040 being forced to eat feces, and a whole list of 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:00.400 medieval sounding torture methods. And you know, people are truly 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.000 desperate for a change, any change, And the fact is 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.080 that the global campus left, or as me and my 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.560 friends have begun calling them, the imperial left, has done 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.600 nothing for us. They've given us no sustainable solution, and 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:18.880 if anything, have completely sided with our pressors. So you know, 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.040 if Trump comes and says I recognize this regime is 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.880 bad and I'm going to do something about it, people 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.880 are going to take that. And this is what is 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.960 so frustrating to me is that many of these leftists 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.760 will go ahead and then criticize Venezuelan's for siding with 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.800 their enemies. But what they don't see is that they 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.800 have sided with ours. And at the end, all that 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.880 does is make life even harder for us. We've gone 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.960 so desperate that we've run directly into the hands of 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.560 vultures because they're the only hands that we've been given. 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.840 I personally don't love what the US is doing to 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.160 our country, but but I mean, I understand why many 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.560 Venezuelans have reacted the way that they have, and this 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.040 is how I can best explain it to those who 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.440 don't understand it. It's sad, I know, it's very sad, 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.200 and it's hard for people who haven't lived through this 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:20.080 to wrap their heads around this level of despair. But 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.880 it's the simple truth, and it's a hard truth that 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.320 I think many leftists need to hear and understand. And 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.360 I say that as someone who is also saddened by this, 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.480 because I want to see a more left leaning future, 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.760 especially for my country. But I don't think it can 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:41.320 happen if people don't start accepting realities like these. 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.200 The other thing that gets collapse Alte, I think is 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:58.240 in Venezuelan opposition right. Like it is always amusing to see, 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:03.440 like I myself communist, right and not a state communist anyway, 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:07.040 And I've seen like the Venezuelan Communist Party and the 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.240 Communist youth of Venezuela, Like they'll put out a thing 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:14.480 being like we support opposition, and then you'll see people 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:16.720 being like, oh no, we're communists, but like like American 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.960 communists who don't speak Spanish, yeah, like like are engaging 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.880 with them. It's it's very funny to see that like 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.880 in their mind all opposition in Venezuela is of the 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.640 right wing, like MTM, yeah, tendenty right. Like there are 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.640 many very valid reasons where people on the left will 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.080 be opposed to what's happening. Does it feel particularly isolating 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.360 to be of the left and at the same time 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.000 have this constant assumption that to be an opposition you 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:44.760 have to be of the right. 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.320 It feels isolating when it comes to dealing with non Venezuelans, 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.360 But when it comes dealing with Venezuelans, not really. I 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:56.080 mean pretty much all of my friends, I mean, as 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:00.520 a queer artist, like, most of my friends are also 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.280 like pretty left leaning. Yeah, you have different kinds of 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.600 people on the left right, but but yeah, like when 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.000 it comes to my Venezuelan friends, it is not isolating 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.840 at all because precisely we already know what's going on. 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.520 You know, we know that the that the opposition isn't 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.280 just like a right wing thing. Yeah, I don't know, 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.680 it doesn't feel isolating because we know the political diversity 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:27.879 that exists, right, Yeah, and so you just kind of 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.560 have to find your tribe and it exists. Again, We're 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.720 a country where people have all different sorts of opinions, 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.960 and so you know, between my Venezuelan and friends, it 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.480 seems pretty what's the opposite of isolating. 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:42.720 Yeah, like inclusive, I guess. 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:48.080 Yeah, when it's dealing with my non Venezuelan friends. That's 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:53.680 when it gets isolating because there's just not an understanding, 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.120 Like they just don't seem to understand, no matter how 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.520 much I try to break it down to them or 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:01.840 how much I try to explain to them. I have 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.280 been successful and many of my good friends who are 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.720 like leftists, most of them are anarchists. Yeah, but when 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.120 I do try to explain it to them, they do 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.359 seem to understand because they know who I am and 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:16.720 they know that I'm not. 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.840 Like, you know, bullshitting them. But yeah, but again that 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:20.360 doesn't mean. 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.800 Like I told you earlier, I have lost many, many 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.960 friends and you know, have had to unfollow many people 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.439 like I don't feel welcome in all like leftists or 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:36.280 even queer spaces sometimes because of what I think, which is, 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.160 you know, a free Venezuela isn't just free from imperialism 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:41.640 but also free from dictatorship. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:42.360 It's free from both. 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.000 Yeah, yeah, right right. I shouldn't be controversial. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.760 But that is something that most of my Venezuelan friends like. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.399 They completely agree because it's similar to me. But my 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:57.920 non Venezuelan friends or ex friends, as I should say, 0:18:57.960 --> 0:18:59.720 they just don't understand that at all. 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.840 So it's always interesting, Like, you know, I spent a 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.639 good deal of time with Venezuelan people coming to the 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.159 United States or who have recently arrived in the United States, 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.800 and it's funny to see how people represent their operation 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.800 to Maduro, like because at first I'll be like, oh, 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:17.720 this guy's an American, so they're like, oh, it'd be 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.119 great the Americans came to liberate us, and like, you know, 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.280 what a wonderful country. And then like once people begin 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.680 to feel comfortable and safe with you and you talk more, 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:26.960 everybody knows. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:28.200 We don't have it all figured out either. 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.720 Everybody knows the history right like, and then people, yes, 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.200 of course have a wide and varied range of things 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:37.760 that they would love to see in Venezuela, but they 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.120 are united behind seeing an end to dictatorship and yeah 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:42.000 and stay violent. 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:43.080 Yeah no. 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.600 And I think that's honestly kind of like a beautiful 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:50.720 thing where, you know, in spite of our differences, because 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:55.040 I may have differences with other people who may be 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:59.480 moderates or right wing or whatever, but we've all united 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.760 a against this like bigger evil. And I think that's 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.080 something that I wish actually the US could learn about 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:10.760 right putting their differences aside to actually like tackle that 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.800 bigger evil. I think that's something that US should learn 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.760 about us. How we've been able to do that. How 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.080 you know, we can all say, you know, we may 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.080 not agree on how certain things are done, but we 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.439 all agree on what needs to be done, which is, 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:28.760 you know, like getting rid of this regime, right. 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:30.480 So yeah, I. 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.160 Mean it's it's actually pretty pretty cool. And although it's 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:37.040 not always easy because again, like you have, like in 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:39.920 any country, we have all sorts of different opinions going on, 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:44.280 it is really nice to see everyone united for one 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.720 thing and one reason, and that's really the important thing. 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.640 So so you know, I wish other countries could maybe 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:53.160 learn a little bit about that too. 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.440 Yeah, left in this country could learn a lot from 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:04.520 the way that, like a vast variety of left organizations 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.320 in Venezuela have managed to unite with organizations that are 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.000 more centrist or straight up on the right to achieve 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:16.400 at least one goal, with the understanding that they still 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.640 retain disagreements that are profound about other things. 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:22.119 Exactly. 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:23.760 That's something we can learn a lot from. 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.520 And like I'm always kind of in awe of the 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:30.600 capacity for solidarity that I see, especially for Venezuelan people. 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.440 And I think it comes from in part like decades 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:38.800 of dictatorship and of hardship more generally, right, but like 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:43.639 the continuous resolve that I've seen to get through it 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.560 together rather than for each person to get their own 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:51.400 and sort of leave the rest behind. Yeah, it's remarkable, genuinely, 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.359 like seeing again, like a lot of my experience I 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:59.600 have not been in Karrakas for probably fifteen years, maybe longer, 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.679 is seeing people in the diaspora and migrants, but like 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:06.639 people who have grown so used to this state ironically 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.920 failing to provide the basic necessities of life that they've 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:13.959 got used to just obtaining them and from each other. Like, 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.399 even if those people are not anarchists, they're probably doing 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:19.440 more mutual aid than people who spend a lot of 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:22.440 their time being anarchists on the internet. Yeah, Like that's 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.359 a beautiful thing that we should be in aura of 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.280 rather than invalidating. It's so many people on the left 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:30.640 ear and. 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:34.200 I think that's something that really starts with our own crisis, 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:38.600 because I remember at the height of the famine, right, 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:44.359 I mean, I'm speaking maybe like twenty thirteen fourteen around time, 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:48.359 because by twenty seventeen when there was like another big 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:51.720 like famine going on, I was not in Venezuela actually, 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.439 but I remember when that was happening, like it was 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.439 very common. Like, hey, so in my backyard we had 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.680 plantings and our neighbor had avocados, so you we would 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:05.959 like exchange things somebody needed anything, like if somebody's grandmother 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:08.679 needed like this medication that can only be found in 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.560 like this one place in Karakas, like, but then I 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:14.840