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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: It's meet James and I'm very lucky to be joined

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Speaker 3: by Marianne today. He's an outspoken member of the Venezuelan diaspora,

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Speaker 3: a writer, photographer, and we're gonna talk today a little

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Speaker 3: bit about our shared frustration with the left in this

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Speaker 3: country talking about Venezuelan people, but not two Venezuelan people.

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Speaker 2: So thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 4: Tonight, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is something that we've been trying to put

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Speaker 3: together for a while, and I'm really glad that we're

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Speaker 3: finally doing it. So I guess if I can just

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Speaker 3: frame this discussion. We've spoken about this extensively, so like

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Speaker 3: I'm sure we won't need much much prompting. I do

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Speaker 3: not understand how people arrive at a position of identifying

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Speaker 3: as being leftists if they don't love and care about

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Speaker 3: other people, And if you love and care about other people,

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Speaker 3: then you should listen to them. And I am appalled

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Speaker 3: at the discourse about Venezuela which is happening without Venezuelan voices.

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Speaker 2: For the most.

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Speaker 3: Part, where people will talk to Venezuelan's are all in

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Speaker 3: the US press. It's far too often people in the

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Speaker 3: diaspora who are talking to the right wing of media

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Speaker 3: and highlighting like what are sometimes recent objections to madulas,

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Speaker 3: sometimes which are completely insane, but it's it's a complete

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Speaker 3: failing of us on the left to not talk to

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Speaker 3: people from Venezuela. Maybe you could just share with us,

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Speaker 3: like how it's been since January to see it offered

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Speaker 3: it as a binary right. You can either exist on

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Speaker 3: the maduro and people can live in poverty and suffer,

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Speaker 3: or you can watch your country get bombed and choose

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Speaker 3: like mcm like and none of this is happening.

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Speaker 2: Was asking you what you would like, Can you like

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Speaker 2: share how that's been.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, it's been. It's been a wild ride.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there's a lot of different emotions going on,

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Speaker 5: which is one of the things that I think a

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Speaker 5: lot of people don't understand that are not Venezuelan. But yeah,

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Speaker 5: just a lot of emotions. I mean, I remember when

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Speaker 5: it first happened, I immediately messaged my family back home, so

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Speaker 5: my brother, my mom, my grandparents. My family is not

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Speaker 5: from Karaka, so they were all right. They were just saying,

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Speaker 5: you know, it's calm where where we are, it's fine.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, the immediate thing was concerned. Then obviously I

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Speaker 5: couldn't sleep that night because of everything that was going on.

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Speaker 5: I live in Europe, so by that time, it was like,

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Speaker 5: I don't know, it was like five in the morning

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Speaker 5: or something, eight in the morning.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember.

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Speaker 5: It's all just a blur to me now, but I

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Speaker 5: remember I was just like on my phone seeing the

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Speaker 5: updates like every minute, trying to contact my friends who

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Speaker 5: did live in Karakas, and they were just saying, yeah,

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Speaker 5: like we hear bombs. We don't know what's going on.

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Speaker 5: And then eventually, like some people started saying that they

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Speaker 5: bombed liked some strategic military bases or like in Paracio

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Speaker 5: Mira Flores, which is the presidential house, and so everyone

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Speaker 5: was like all over the place, and then we got

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Speaker 5: all this information that they took Maduro whatever. And then

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Speaker 5: at that point it was just like Okay, concern, worry, confusion,

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Speaker 5: and then joy because not because the place was bombed

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Speaker 5: by Americans, but because this guy was like taken away

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Speaker 5: who he deserves.

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Speaker 4: Worse than prison, to be honest.

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Speaker 5: But then concern again because what are the Americans going

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Speaker 5: to do now? So it was just a lot of

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Speaker 5: different things going on. Like I think a lot of people,

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Speaker 5: including myself, were just like paralyzed by all these different emotions,

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Speaker 5: like joy because again, this guy who has done horrible

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Speaker 5: things to the Venezuelan people is now paying for his

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Speaker 5: crime somewhere, but at the same time, fear because of

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Speaker 5: what is going to happen next. I mean, we're not dumb,

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Speaker 5: we know what the US is capable of. So it

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Speaker 5: was a little bit of both of those feelings after

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Speaker 5: we knew what had happened, and ever since then it

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Speaker 5: has been just a struggle because of course there's a

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Speaker 5: lot of misinformation going out there. It's been frustrating because

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Speaker 5: I see many of my people's voices being silenced by

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Speaker 5: people on the left. And then also you have a

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Speaker 5: lot of people on the right like appropriating our narrative

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Speaker 5: to like push their own pro American propaganda whatever. So

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Speaker 5: it's kind of just like everyone's trying to like appropriate

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Speaker 5: or steal their own narrative and suffering for their own gain,

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Speaker 5: and the left and the right are doing both like equally. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: So it has been kind of frustrating because I mean,

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Speaker 5: every time I even just try to leave a comment

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Speaker 5: on Instagram or say something I'm called fascist, like Trump supporters,

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Speaker 5: Cia Masade agent whatever. And you know, it's frustrating to

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Speaker 5: see so many people because most of the people I

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Speaker 5: follow are like leftists, right, but I've unfollowed like seventy

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Speaker 5: percent of the people I used to follow because they

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Speaker 5: started posting like Promaduro stuff and talking about how he

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Speaker 5: was so great whatever. And you know, it has been

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Speaker 5: very defeating to feel like we don't have anywhere to

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Speaker 5: go to nobody supporting us, because again, one side just

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Speaker 5: wants to rob us from our resources and seal a

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Speaker 5: narrative to like push their own agenda. But then the

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Speaker 5: other side is like completely denying or calling us like

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Speaker 5: all these horrible things to also steal our narrative. Right,

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Speaker 5: So it has been really frustrating and scary and isolating. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: it has been a lot, to the point where I think,

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Speaker 5: I mean, do I even have a place in the

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Speaker 5: world of nobody wants to hear my voice? So it

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Speaker 5: has been very difficult, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, very disheartening.

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Speaker 5: But then yeah, like that's why I told you about

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Speaker 5: the baseball thing recently. It was kind of like a

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Speaker 5: positive thing, like a because one of the good things

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Speaker 5: about that game is that people were finally like getting

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Speaker 5: to know us and how we're actually good people, and

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Speaker 5: that was kind of like a pick me up after

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Speaker 5: how horrible life has been since January third.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah, like people obviously like undervalue spot

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Speaker 3: I think they do. I wrote a book about sport

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Speaker 3: and anti fact some kind of predispersed to this disposition.

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Speaker 3: But like, these moments of joy are really important, and

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Speaker 3: like the God knows the world tries to rob us

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Speaker 3: of joy at the moment, so we should embrace them

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Speaker 3: and enjoy them and not feel like we are like

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Speaker 3: obliged to be sad because of all the sadness in

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Speaker 3: our worlds. Yeah, I think something you said there, like

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Speaker 3: struck home with me are two things I guess let's

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Speaker 3: address the first one. It is fundamentally a colonial impulse

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Speaker 3: to steal someone's narrative and assume that they're incapable of

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Speaker 3: speaking for themselves, so you must speak for them, right Like.

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Speaker 3: That is something that I have seen not just now,

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Speaker 3: but for years about Venezuela. Right Like, it must have

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Speaker 3: been really frustrating to see this kind of camp pissed

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Speaker 3: tendency to to literally steal like the voice of Venezuelan

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Speaker 3: people and speak on their behalf.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's nothing new though.

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Speaker 5: I mean I remember when I was in college it

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Speaker 5: was kind of the same, Like there were I think

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Speaker 5: it was like twenty seventeen, there were some protests and

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Speaker 5: people were saying all sorts of things, and I remember

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Speaker 5: losing a lot of my friends in college because of that,

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Speaker 5: because I was saying, like, you know, it's more complicated

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Speaker 5: than that, like you know, actually people do dislike this

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Speaker 5: person for this, this and this reason. And yeah, I

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Speaker 5: remember losing a lot of friends because of that. Maybe

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Speaker 5: not a mental breakdown, because it was just like a life, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I remember even at one point I went to like

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Speaker 5: a cafe. It was one of these like calfes where

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Speaker 5: people right on the walls and it said like fuck Venezuelans,

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Speaker 5: and I was just like, what a fucking dystopia am

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Speaker 5: I living in? And I also used to work at

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Speaker 5: a front desk and this guy somehow found out that

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Speaker 5: I was Venezuelan and he started saying like, oh, Madulu's

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Speaker 5: the best, like whatever, and my boss had to come

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Speaker 5: in and like take the guy away because he was

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Speaker 5: just being really like rowdy.

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Speaker 4: Right, So yeah, it's calm.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, in fact of us, like when we introduce ourselves,

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Speaker 5: like we don't say that we're Venezuelan immediately just because it.

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Speaker 4: Can be dangerous at times.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, especially now we have this combination of like

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Speaker 3: we've discussed this, but like on the on the right,

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Speaker 3: then it's when people are all perceived to be fucking

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Speaker 3: members of trend Ragua now and then yeah it's that

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Speaker 3: or you line up behind the regime. And even when

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Speaker 3: those two things, like they're not as distinct as people

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Speaker 3: you know sometimes in their imagination see them, or that

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Speaker 3: they're also not as joint does other people in their

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Speaker 3: imagination see them. Yeah, it doesn't give you a place

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Speaker 3: to express your identity, right, you just have to fit

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Speaker 3: into someone else's box. Yeah, something else you said really

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Speaker 3: struck me, Like there seems to be and again it's

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Speaker 3: like it's not distinct from the colonial impulse, right, I

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Speaker 3: think about the uplift civilized and Christianized or the white

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Speaker 3: man's burden, or these notions of people who were subject

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Speaker 3: to colonial violence being lesser than or incapable of, and like,

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Speaker 3: what are the things I see? It is like the

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Speaker 3: idea that Venezuelan people are not aware of United States imperialism.

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Speaker 3: I lived with Chilean's in Caracas in like the first

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Speaker 3: decade of this century, right, Like, people were very extremely

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Speaker 3: fucking aware. Like I lived with people who are being

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Speaker 3: tortured because of because of United States imperialism. They've played

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Speaker 3: me to have our records and then told me how

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Speaker 3: they chopped his hands off.

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Speaker 2: Right, Like, Yeah, you're a person on the left.

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Speaker 3: You have an understanding of the world and world politics,

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Speaker 3: and you've studied and traveled. But like there is a

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Speaker 3: cultural understanding of this, right which does not require one

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Speaker 3: to attend university. Can you explain how people because people

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Speaker 3: are weighing on the one hand, we have this malordal

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Speaker 3: regime which is killing people, which has imprisoning people, and

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Speaker 3: which is acting as a fundamental constraint on our autonomy.

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Speaker 3: And on the other hand, we have the Americans dropping bombs,

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Speaker 3: so we know what the Americans have done, Yeah to

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Speaker 3: this part of the world. If you could just talk

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Speaker 3: on that a little bit, explain how people live with

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Speaker 3: that balance.

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Speaker 5: I think it's a combination of multiple things. So first,

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Speaker 5: I mean, for many years, the government horribly mismanaged the

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Speaker 5: country and then blamed the US for everything that went wrong.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there were moments in.

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Speaker 5: Which we knew and had proof that these problems were

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Speaker 5: coming directly from the regime's actions, and yet so many

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Speaker 5: times they simply lied about it and said that it

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Speaker 5: was the US's fault, to the point where many of

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Speaker 5: us were, you know, simply desensitized to the idea of

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Speaker 5: US intervention. It's a case of the boy who cried

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Speaker 5: a wolf, but in this case, it was the dictator

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Speaker 5: who cried intervention.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Second of all, I mean, for many years now, every

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Speaker 5: cent made from our country's resources have gone everywhere except

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Speaker 5: to the people. Our resources have been going to other

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Speaker 5: country let's say Russia and China, just to name a couple,

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Speaker 5: and yet we, the Venezuelan people, have not seen a

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Speaker 5: single scent of that. So at this point, we're used

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Speaker 5: to being exploited and we're used to being cheated. So

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Speaker 5: when people in the US say, hey, the US only

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Speaker 5: wants to steal your oil, or hey, like they're going

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Speaker 5: to exploit your country, it's ignoring the fact that we

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Speaker 5: have already been living through that very same thing for decades,

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Speaker 5: and many believe that our material reality won't be affected

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Speaker 5: just because now it's someone else stealing our resources. If anything,

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Speaker 5: people are willing to see if these new guys aka

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Speaker 5: the US might do things differently now, whether that's right

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Speaker 5: or not. What it really speaks to, I think is

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Speaker 5: I guess my final point, which is that people are desperate.

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Speaker 5: Every time a leftist says, oh, your life is about

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Speaker 5: to get so much worse or so bad or whatever,

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Speaker 5: they say that without knowing how bad things have already gotten.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I remember going to school during like the

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Speaker 5: worst parts of the famine and seeing like a skeletal

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Speaker 5: dead body lying on the street. Like that's an image

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Speaker 5: I still have nightmares with. And I mean for a time,

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Speaker 5: I remember someone I knew dying or being killed every

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Speaker 5: single week.

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Speaker 4: The abuse and.

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Speaker 5: The torture we've endured at the hands of this regime.

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Speaker 5: I mean, anyone can google, like what's going on in

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Speaker 5: places like Elllikoire or La Pumba or any of the

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Speaker 5: other torture centers in the country. I mean, people experience

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Speaker 5: mock in real executions, getting electrocuted like by their genitals, rape,

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Speaker 5: being forced to eat feces, and a whole list of

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Speaker 5: medieval sounding torture methods. And you know, people are truly

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Speaker 5: desperate for a change, any change, And the fact is

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Speaker 5: that the global campus left, or as me and my

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Speaker 5: friends have begun calling them, the imperial left, has done

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Speaker 5: nothing for us. They've given us no sustainable solution, and

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Speaker 5: if anything, have completely sided with our pressors. So you know,

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Speaker 5: if Trump comes and says I recognize this regime is

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Speaker 5: bad and I'm going to do something about it, people

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Speaker 5: are going to take that. And this is what is

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Speaker 5: so frustrating to me is that many of these leftists

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Speaker 5: will go ahead and then criticize Venezuelan's for siding with

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Speaker 5: their enemies. But what they don't see is that they

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Speaker 5: have sided with ours. And at the end, all that

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Speaker 5: does is make life even harder for us. We've gone

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Speaker 5: so desperate that we've run directly into the hands of

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Speaker 5: vultures because they're the only hands that we've been given.

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Speaker 5: I personally don't love what the US is doing to

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Speaker 5: our country, but but I mean, I understand why many

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Speaker 5: Venezuelans have reacted the way that they have, and this

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Speaker 5: is how I can best explain it to those who

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Speaker 5: don't understand it. It's sad, I know, it's very sad,

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Speaker 5: and it's hard for people who haven't lived through this

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Speaker 5: to wrap their heads around this level of despair. But

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Speaker 5: it's the simple truth, and it's a hard truth that

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Speaker 5: I think many leftists need to hear and understand. And

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Speaker 5: I say that as someone who is also saddened by this,

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Speaker 5: because I want to see a more left leaning future,

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Speaker 5: especially for my country. But I don't think it can

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Speaker 5: happen if people don't start accepting realities like these.

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Speaker 3: The other thing that gets collapse Alte, I think is

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Speaker 3: in Venezuelan opposition right. Like it is always amusing to see,

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Speaker 3: like I myself communist, right and not a state communist anyway,

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Speaker 3: And I've seen like the Venezuelan Communist Party and the

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Speaker 3: Communist youth of Venezuela, Like they'll put out a thing

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Speaker 3: being like we support opposition, and then you'll see people

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Speaker 3: being like, oh no, we're communists, but like like American

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Speaker 3: communists who don't speak Spanish, yeah, like like are engaging

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Speaker 3: with them. It's it's very funny to see that like

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Speaker 3: in their mind all opposition in Venezuela is of the

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Speaker 3: right wing, like MTM, yeah, tendenty right. Like there are

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Speaker 3: many very valid reasons where people on the left will

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Speaker 3: be opposed to what's happening. Does it feel particularly isolating

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Speaker 3: to be of the left and at the same time

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Speaker 3: have this constant assumption that to be an opposition you

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Speaker 3: have to be of the right.

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Speaker 5: It feels isolating when it comes to dealing with non Venezuelans,

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Speaker 5: But when it comes dealing with Venezuelans, not really. I

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Speaker 5: mean pretty much all of my friends, I mean, as

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Speaker 5: a queer artist, like, most of my friends are also

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Speaker 5: like pretty left leaning. Yeah, you have different kinds of

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Speaker 5: people on the left right, but but yeah, like when

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Speaker 5: it comes to my Venezuelan friends, it is not isolating

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Speaker 5: at all because precisely we already know what's going on.

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Speaker 5: You know, we know that the that the opposition isn't

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Speaker 5: just like a right wing thing. Yeah, I don't know,

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Speaker 5: it doesn't feel isolating because we know the political diversity

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Speaker 5: that exists, right, Yeah, and so you just kind of

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Speaker 5: have to find your tribe and it exists. Again, We're

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Speaker 5: a country where people have all different sorts of opinions,

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Speaker 5: and so you know, between my Venezuelan and friends, it

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Speaker 5: seems pretty what's the opposite of isolating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like inclusive, I guess.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, when it's dealing with my non Venezuelan friends. That's

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Speaker 5: when it gets isolating because there's just not an understanding,

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Speaker 5: Like they just don't seem to understand, no matter how

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Speaker 5: much I try to break it down to them or

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Speaker 5: how much I try to explain to them. I have

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Speaker 5: been successful and many of my good friends who are

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Speaker 5: like leftists, most of them are anarchists. Yeah, but when

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Speaker 5: I do try to explain it to them, they do

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Speaker 5: seem to understand because they know who I am and

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Speaker 5: they know that I'm not.

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Speaker 4: Like, you know, bullshitting them. But yeah, but again that

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Speaker 4: doesn't mean.

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Speaker 5: Like I told you earlier, I have lost many, many

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Speaker 5: friends and you know, have had to unfollow many people

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Speaker 5: like I don't feel welcome in all like leftists or

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Speaker 5: even queer spaces sometimes because of what I think, which is,

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Speaker 5: you know, a free Venezuela isn't just free from imperialism

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Speaker 5: but also free from dictatorship.

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Speaker 4: It's free from both.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right right. I shouldn't be controversial.

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Speaker 5: But that is something that most of my Venezuelan friends like.

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Speaker 5: They completely agree because it's similar to me. But my

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Speaker 5: non Venezuelan friends or ex friends, as I should say,

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Speaker 5: they just don't understand that at all.

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Speaker 3: So it's always interesting, Like, you know, I spent a

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Speaker 3: good deal of time with Venezuelan people coming to the

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Speaker 3: United States or who have recently arrived in the United States,

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Speaker 3: and it's funny to see how people represent their operation

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Speaker 3: to Maduro, like because at first I'll be like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this guy's an American, so they're like, oh, it'd be

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Speaker 3: great the Americans came to liberate us, and like, you know,

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Speaker 3: what a wonderful country. And then like once people begin

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Speaker 3: to feel comfortable and safe with you and you talk more,

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Speaker 3: everybody knows.

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Speaker 2: We don't have it all figured out either.

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Speaker 3: Everybody knows the history right like, and then people, yes,

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Speaker 3: of course have a wide and varied range of things

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Speaker 3: that they would love to see in Venezuela, but they

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Speaker 3: are united behind seeing an end to dictatorship and yeah

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Speaker 3: and stay violent.

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Speaker 4: Yeah no.

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Speaker 5: And I think that's honestly kind of like a beautiful

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Speaker 5: thing where, you know, in spite of our differences, because

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Speaker 5: I may have differences with other people who may be

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Speaker 5: moderates or right wing or whatever, but we've all united

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Speaker 5: a against this like bigger evil. And I think that's

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Speaker 5: something that I wish actually the US could learn about

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Speaker 5: right putting their differences aside to actually like tackle that

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Speaker 5: bigger evil. I think that's something that US should learn

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Speaker 5: about us. How we've been able to do that. How

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Speaker 5: you know, we can all say, you know, we may

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Speaker 5: not agree on how certain things are done, but we

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Speaker 5: all agree on what needs to be done, which is,

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Speaker 5: you know, like getting rid of this regime, right.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I.

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Speaker 5: Mean it's it's actually pretty pretty cool. And although it's

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Speaker 5: not always easy because again, like you have, like in

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Speaker 5: any country, we have all sorts of different opinions going on,

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Speaker 5: it is really nice to see everyone united for one

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Speaker 5: thing and one reason, and that's really the important thing.

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Speaker 5: So so you know, I wish other countries could maybe

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Speaker 5: learn a little bit about that too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, left in this country could learn a lot from

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Speaker 3: the way that, like a vast variety of left organizations

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Speaker 3: in Venezuela have managed to unite with organizations that are

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Speaker 3: more centrist or straight up on the right to achieve

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Speaker 3: at least one goal, with the understanding that they still

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Speaker 3: retain disagreements that are profound about other things.

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Speaker 4: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's something we can learn a lot from.

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Speaker 3: And like I'm always kind of in awe of the

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Speaker 3: capacity for solidarity that I see, especially for Venezuelan people.

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Speaker 3: And I think it comes from in part like decades

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Speaker 3: of dictatorship and of hardship more generally, right, but like

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Speaker 3: the continuous resolve that I've seen to get through it

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Speaker 3: together rather than for each person to get their own

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Speaker 3: and sort of leave the rest behind. Yeah, it's remarkable, genuinely,

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Speaker 3: like seeing again, like a lot of my experience I

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Speaker 3: have not been in Karrakas for probably fifteen years, maybe longer,

380
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Speaker 3: is seeing people in the diaspora and migrants, but like

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Speaker 3: people who have grown so used to this state ironically

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Speaker 3: failing to provide the basic necessities of life that they've

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Speaker 3: got used to just obtaining them and from each other. Like,

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Speaker 3: even if those people are not anarchists, they're probably doing

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Speaker 3: more mutual aid than people who spend a lot of

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Speaker 3: their time being anarchists on the internet. Yeah, Like that's

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Speaker 3: a beautiful thing that we should be in aura of

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Speaker 3: rather than invalidating. It's so many people on the left

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Speaker 3: ear and.

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Speaker 5: I think that's something that really starts with our own crisis,

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Speaker 5: because I remember at the height of the famine, right,

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Speaker 5: I mean, I'm speaking maybe like twenty thirteen fourteen around time,

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Speaker 5: because by twenty seventeen when there was like another big

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Speaker 5: like famine going on, I was not in Venezuela actually,

395
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Speaker 5: but I remember when that was happening, like it was

396
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Speaker 5: very common. Like, hey, so in my backyard we had

397
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Speaker 5: plantings and our neighbor had avocados, so you we would

398
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Speaker 5: like exchange things somebody needed anything, like if somebody's grandmother

399
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Speaker 5: needed like this medication that can only be found in

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Speaker 5: like this one place in Karakas, like, but then I

401
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Speaker 5: didn't have gas, but maybe like my cousin had gas

402
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Speaker 5: so that we could drive to Karakas, like. So that's

403
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Speaker 5: kind of how it worked back there, Like we had

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Speaker 5: that solidarity towards each other, and I think obviously if

405
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Speaker 5: we go abroad, we're going to continue showing that same Yeah,

406
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Speaker 5: I like that same attitude because it's just like part

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Speaker 5: of who we are.

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Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, it just seems to be very much

409
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Speaker 3: like part of the character of community. It's even like

410
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Speaker 3: when I was there, you know, a decade before that,

411
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Speaker 3: quite a decade maybe sometime before that. It's funny, I

412
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Speaker 3: went to this place whereout having like a revolution, which

413
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Speaker 3: was extremely grounded in state power and came out realizing

414
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Speaker 3: that the state is not the vehicle for human liberation

415
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Speaker 3: and the other people are just I just find this,

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Speaker 3: this impulse on the left to invalidate and and like

417
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 3: therefore refuse to learned from Venezuelan people so frustrating. It's

418
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 3: like a mild phrase, but like what can people do?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Like, we're in a situation now where we have like

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Speaker 3: Maduro without Maduro rail, but we have Delcea doing like

422
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Speaker 3: tweeting how much he likes Donald Trump all the time.

423
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Speaker 3: We are at the worst of all possible outcomes. Really, right,

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Speaker 3: we still have this apparatus for repression. But at the

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Speaker 3: same time, the US is basically engaged in a colonial

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Speaker 3: relationship of extraction of resources and anything else it wants

427
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Speaker 3: from Venezuela. Like, how can people better be in solidarity

428
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Speaker 3: instead of like trying.

429
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Speaker 2: To force you all into one box or another box?

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Speaker 3: If we assume most of our audiences in Europe or

431
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Speaker 3: the United States, right, and they there haven't been big

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Speaker 3: Like we're in solidarity with the Venezuelan anarchists or even

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Speaker 3: the Venezuelan socialist or communists who are opposed to Maduro

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Speaker 3: to Delci.

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Speaker 5: Now, for non Venezuelans, I think the key thing is

436
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 5: to speak about the from a complete perspective, a whole perspective.

437
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 4: Because what's the issue. And I can tell you personally.

438
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 5: Sometimes I see, I don't know, like anti imperialists, you know,

439
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 5: US get out of Venezuela protests, and I would love

440
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 5: to join because I want the US out of my country.

441
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 4: But then I see them with pro Maduro.

442
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 5: Signs or just like free Maduro or you know, talking

443
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 5: positively about the regime, and then I'm like, ugh, actually

444
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 5: I'm not going to participate in that. Yeah, So you

445
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 5: know you're actively excluding Venezuelan voices by doing these kinds

446
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 5: of unilateral thing. And what do I mean by unilateral?

447
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 5: So I understand that many let's say, Western non Venezuelans

448
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 5: are speaking and looking at things from their own perspective,

449
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 5: which is Trump is a bad guy.

450
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 4: He's not going to do anything positive.

451
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 5: We know the history of the US, and so they

452
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 5: are from their own perspective, they see what their bad

453
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 5: guy is doing, right right yea. From the Venezuelan perspective,

454
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 5: we also see what our bad guy is doing. Like

455
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 5: we're speaking up about this particular bad guy more than

456
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 5: what we are about.

457
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 4: Trump, the other bad guy.

458
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 5: So it's kind of like we have two different perspectives here,

459
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 5: and both are looking at their own right, And so

460
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 5: the issue here is that those two perspectives are not combined, right.

461
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 5: So I would say the first thing you need to

462
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 5: understand is that you know, I understand why you're looking

463
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 5: at things from your own perspective, but you also have

464
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 5: to include Venezuelan perspectives in your activism in order for

465
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 5: them to actually be productive towards the Venezuelan people, right,

466
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 5: Because when you say, you know Fremaduro and you know

467
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 5: us get out of Venezuela, you're still not addressing the

468
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 5: necessities of the Venezuelan people, right, which is we need

469
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 5: to get out of the regime.

470
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 4: Sure, like one of those.

471
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 5: Necessities is the US getting the fuck out of there,

472
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 5: but you're not addressing the main issue that has plagued

473
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 5: us for the past thirty.

474
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 4: Years, right.

475
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 5: So when you're not doing that, and that's a dangerous

476
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 5: thing about you know, conversations like that of Venezuela or

477
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 5: Cuba or even Iran as well, when you speak about

478
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 5: things from one specific perspective. When you omit one side,

479
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 5: you're making it seem like the other side is better,

480
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 5: when it should be abundantly clear that both the US

481
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 5: and Maduda need to be out in order for Venezuela

482
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 5: to actually be free.

483
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 4: Right.

484
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 5: So I think it's key, it is very necessary that

485
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 5: when we have these like free Venezuela protests, it's not

486
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 5: just the US, but it's also protesting.

487
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 4: The Madula regime, right because.

488
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 5: Otherwise what you're going to do is you're going to

489
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 5: exclude many people who also want the US to back

490
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 5: off from your own protests, right. And if you know

491
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 5: it's it gets even worse because I've seen Venezuelan activists

492
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 5: actually getting you know, pushed out of conversations on Venezuela

493
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 5: because they're talking about you know what I'm telling you

494
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 5: right now, right, So they're talking about what the regime

495
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 5: has done and maybe focusing on the regime well, also

496
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 5: mentioning that the US should like, you know, they know

497
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 5: US history, but they're focusing on the Venezuelan perspective because

498
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 5: as a Venezuelan, that's what you want to bring into

499
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 5: the conversation, right, Like non Venezuelans can go ahead and

500
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 5: add of that, you know, anti peerless part of the

501
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 5: conversation or you know, perspective to the conversation. But they

502
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 5: do need to make space for the Venezuelans who also

503
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 5: need to speak out of the regime, right, So it

504
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 5: needs to be a combination of both, and in your

505
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 5: advocacy you have to include both at the same time always,

506
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 5: because again, if you don't speak about one, then you're

507
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 5: sort of like portraying the other. One is like the

508
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 5: good side, right, Yeah, And what that does is that

509
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 5: continues to isolate Venezuelan's I mean, including myself, Like I said,

510
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 5: I can't even go to a free Venezuela protest because

511
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 5: I'm never gonna be, you know, next to somebody chanting

512
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 5: Freema Duro.

513
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

514
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 5: So that's like the key thing that the leftist, like

515
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 5: non Venezuelan leftists need to understand.

516
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

517
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: I think a lot about how people on the left

518
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 3: for some reason, and this is particularly odd with the

519
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: fact that we have lived through a genocide in Gaza

520
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 3: for two and a half years. The people seem to

521
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 3: only be able to understand solidarity with states and not

522
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: with people. And we have the Palestinians, right a stateless

523
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 3: nation people seem to understand and that there to an

524
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: extent right, albeit that for many people like Paalatsina's statehood

525
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 3: is a solution to the problem, it just seems to

526
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 3: be such a condemnation of the organizing or much of

527
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: the left that people cannot This is my general frustration

528
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 3: with the world, well one of them. They can't think

529
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 3: outside of the state model. They cannot conceive of an

530
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: alternative that does not already exist. Yeah, even though there

531
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: are movements outside of the state right, like the Kurdish

532
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 3: struggling in the North Assyria for example, it's one but

533
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 3: like I don't know, like we should be able to

534
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 3: dream of a better world or a beautiful life, and

535
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 3: it seems like so many people have forgotten that that's

536
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 3: what being on the left is about. And they identify

537
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 3: as revolutionaries, but they're extremely reactionary in their politics and

538
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 3: their goals. Like, Yeah, it must be so strange to

539
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 3: come from. I don't know how old you were, when

540
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 3: do you remember, like very early?

541
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 4: I remember parts of it. It's like a memory.

542
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 5: So I was born in ninety seven, So early Chevy

543
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 5: Smoe was like a fever dream. I remember, you know,

544
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 5: during like the and all that I would like go

545
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 5: outside of like my apartments, like like go to my window.

546
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 5: Like we used to live in a building and we

547
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 5: would like take out pots in like cast roles and

548
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 5: start basing and everyone. And then that was like my

549
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 5: favorite part of the day because I as a kid,

550
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 5: didn't really understand that it was a protest, but.

551
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 4: I loved banging on things. So I remember that. I

552
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 4: remember like my.

553
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 5: Parents not being able to find certain things that maybe

554
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 5: in the past they could find. I remember like at

555
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 5: some points, like not being able to go to school

556
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 5: because like there was something happening. It's like you're reallyving

557
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 5: his own thing. But I remember thinking, I hope there's

558
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 5: another cool so that I don't have to go to

559
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 5: school tomorrow. Yeah, that's kind of like what I remember

560
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 5: of early Chevysmo. I also remember as well, sort of

561
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 5: seeing the division, and that to me is like the biggest,

562
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 5: most impactful memory, right, the division that existed so on

563
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 5: my family. I remember just for context, like part of

564
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 5: my family, half of my family is like middle class

565
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 5: and the other half of my family was working class,

566
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 5: like you know, brown working class from the coasts, right,

567
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 5: So shout out Tom so you know, it was like

568
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 5: different realities, different necessities, and I remember both sides of

569
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 5: the family arguing a lot, Like there was a lot

570
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 5: of division, very similar to what's going on in the

571
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 5: US right now in terms of division, right yeah, where

572
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 5: there were like heated arguments, people did not speak to

573
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 5: each other, people hated each other because of you know,

574
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 5: like part of my family was Chevysta, the other part

575
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 5: was opposition or whatever like it was. That was one

576
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 5: of the biggest things that I remember, was like half

577
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 5: of my family hating the other half of my family

578
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 5: because they had different backgrounds and different political stances. So

579
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 5: so yeah, that was a big thing, as well as

580
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 5: the fanaticism, right that existed, especially rest does I mean

581
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 5: remember my grandmother had like a poster of Chavis and

582
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 5: like like a figurines and she dyed her hair red

583
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 5: because she supported the regime whatever. So so that's one

584
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 5: of the things I remember the most, is my family,

585
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 5: both sides like hating each other because of this is

586
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 5: and it's something that I'm seeing in the US right

587
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 5: now a lot, and I think it's operating in a

588
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 5: very similar fashion.

589
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does seem to be. And like did your

590
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 3: family reconcile at some point. Oh, do you still have

591
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: people who are like die hard?

592
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 4: No.

593
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 5: So for example, Mike mother that I told you about, Yeah,

594
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 5: she says that she's still Chevy stuff, but she's not Maluis.

595
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

596
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had this done too. Yeah.

597
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just like, you know, she supports like what

598
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 5: the revolution initially meant, but like she doesn't support Maduro, right.

599
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 4: Yeah.

600
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 5: Or for example, like her husband, my grandfather, he's just like,

601
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 5: you know, this revolution was all bullshit. We thought that

602
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 5: this was going to be good, but they ended up

603
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 5: being absolute traders, like you know, they ended up not

604
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 5: doing what they promised to do, right, So it was

605
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 5: all just disappointment. And the other side of my family

606
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 5: is just like chill, I don't know, like they were

607
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 5: just never Chuvy stuff. So that's kind of you are

608
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 5: like strong environmentalists, so that's why they kind of hated

609
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 5: Chavis because they were also doing some crazy shit in

610
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 5: the Amazons. So it's kind of like they do all

611
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 5: get along much better, right, So that's good, Yeah, I

612
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 5: guess because like once I realized that actually this guy

613
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 5: was not that good, right, But that particular side of

614
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 5: my family that was Chavista. That's how they think right now,

615
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,919
Speaker 5: or it's like either it was disappointment or that perspective

616
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 5: of you know, I support Javis but not Maduo.

617
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: I've heard that from a lot of people, right, like

618
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: what Javis wanted to make Venezuela better for us, and

619
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 3: like if we just look at the ship he said, yeah,

620
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 3: I want people to have enough to eat. I want

621
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 3: them to have education, I want them to be able

622
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 3: to go to the hospital. I want them to have

623
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 3: safe houses, Like I want all those things too. They

624
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 3: didn't get those things. But like I've heard a lot

625
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 3: of people say that, like, well, yeah, we wanted it too,

626
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 3: so we supported it, but it wasn't We didn't get that.

627
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 2: We got prisons and cops exactly. And like that.

628
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: Stunce seems to be entirely absent in any discussion of Venezuela,

629
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 3: which is it's so common, like you just don't hear

630
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 3: the like it's not like a left critique from other

631
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 3: left stances. It's a left critique from the same place

632
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 3: the chav Is more claimed to come from, and it's

633
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 3: completely absent in our discourse. And like I can't, well,

634
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 3: it's because we don't talk to people from Venezuela. But

635
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 3: there ye, yes, it's extremely frustrating, and I think like

636
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 3: there's a lot that the United States can learn because

637
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 3: we're already seeing large numbers of people being like, oh yeah,

638
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 3: I've voted for Trump one, two, three times, and now

639
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: something has alienated them, right, whether it's mass deportations, whether

640
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 3: it's a war with a run, whether it's the economy

641
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 3: being shit, whatever it is, Like, we need.

642
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 2: To learn how to.

643
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 3: Allow people to change their minds or.

644
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: Like to get better.

645
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 3: Like the Venezuelan opposition wouldn't be what it was if

646
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 3: they said anybody who supported Chabas.

647
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: At any point can fuck off, we don't want you, right, Like, yeah,

648
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 2: it's it wouldn't work. I would function.

649
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 3: And I think if we would listen to people, there's

650
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 3: so much that we could learn from that, but we

651
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 3: seemed so locked in on talking down to them instead.

652
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean exactly, That's what I mean by like

653
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 5: it reminds me of that like division.

654
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 4: You know, it's almost like right, like people are foaming.

655
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,479
Speaker 5: At the mouth, Like that's kind of like the level

656
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 5: of division that I remember growing up. And to be honest,

657
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 5: a lot of what's going on in the US is

658
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 5: eerily similar to what I grew up seeing. I think

659
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 5: both Trump and Chivas are very similar kinds of people.

660
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 4: And you know, I used to live in the US.

661
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 4: Now I live in Europe.

662
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 5: But that's one of the reasons I decided to leave,

663
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 5: because I saw many similarities to what happened in my country.

664
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 4: And I decided to.

665
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 5: Just Skidadle as soon as like, because I sort of

666
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 5: knew where it was all going.

667
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 4: But I knew where it was all.

668
00:37:53,080 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 5: Going because of what I already lived through. There was

669
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 5: actually one more thing that I'm thinking about it that

670
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 5: it didn't get a chance, But you mentioned Palestine. I

671
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 5: think it's really interesting because the school that I went to, actually, Venezuela,

672
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 5: has a really big population of Middle Eastern people, among

673
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 5: them Palestinians. There was a Palestine club in my hometown,

674
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 5: and I remember during was it like twenty twelve, twenty fourteen,

675
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 5: Again this was years ago, but twenty twelve maybe twenty fourteen,

676
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 5: at some point there were protests la Huadimbus if you

677
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 5: know them, during Lazwadimbas, there were protests for Venezuela whatever.

678
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 4: And I remember that I had.

679
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 5: Many Palestinian like Palestinian Venezuelan classmates, and they were protesting both, right,

680
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 5: So they had Palestinian flags and they had Venezuelan flags

681
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 5: and they were pro testing for both peoples.

682
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 4: So yeah, you know, that's like.

683
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 5: An example whenever people say like try to divide and

684
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 5: you know say like, oh, like the Maludu is like

685
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 5: pro Palestine, whatever. I think of my friends in school

686
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 5: where they were like, no, actually, we're Palestinian Venezuelans and

687
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 5: we don't like what's going on in either place. So

688
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 5: because we do have a very big Middle Eastern population, again,

689
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 5: many Palestinians, many Lebanese people who are not unaware of

690
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 5: what has been going on in the Middle East, right,

691
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 5: So that's also something to be added to the conversation,

692
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 5: is you know when we talk about these things like

693
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 5: they're not isolated, and precisely because we're not isolated, that's

694
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 5: why we should, like you said, like be more in

695
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 5: support of the people rather than the states.

696
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 2: Right.

697
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to bring up like.

698
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 5: That little bit of like that little memory that I

699
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 5: had because I just remember the image of it, of

700
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 5: my friends doing that.

701
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's very similar, sense, I guessed, like I

702
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 3: think a lot about how the Assad regime used Palestinian

703
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 3: people right, Like it would constantly talk about fucking solidarity

704
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 3: with Palestine, and it had all these tanks and all

705
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 3: these guns and all these planes and bombs, and it

706
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 3: turned them all on its own people. It didn't use

707
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 3: its state power to liberate Palestine. It would have been

708
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 3: destroyed by the idea that it did, I imagine. But

709
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: it used it to state power to kill its own people.

710
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 3: It is so frustrating that we saw that happen and

711
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 3: the world still allows people to tokenize the Palestinian people

712
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 3: right and to use them as a shield against the

713
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 3: oppression of their own people. I think a lot of

714
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 3: people will be thinking or listening and being like, well,

715
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 3: I haven't really heard from Venezuelan voices, or they might

716
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 3: not know any people from Venezuela.

717
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: Where can people.

718
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 3: Do more to listen if they want to as they

719
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 3: approach this issue in so much as people stead approaching

720
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 3: it because half the US media has forgotten about, then

721
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 3: Isulla already?

722
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,959
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot going on, for sure.

723
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, but.

724
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 5: I want to say, like this might be a little

725
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 5: bit annoying, but learn Spanish, right if you're going to

726
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,439
Speaker 5: act it for a specific group of people. At least

727
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 5: learn the language, you know, so that you actually know

728
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 5: what people are talking about.

729
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 4: Right.

730
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 5: Not everybody speaks English. Not everybody's gonna speak your language.

731
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 5: So if you're actually gonna take advocacy for Venezuelas seriously,

732
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 5: then you should learn the language straight up so that

733
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 5: you it's easier for you to get into these conversations.

734
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 5: See what local activists are saying, see what the news

735
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 5: are saying, like see even what our leaders are saying.

736
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 4: Right. So, I think that's one of the first things.

737
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 4: I think. Another thing, I mean, there are.

738
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 5: Some like English language Instagram accounts or like posting things, Yeah,

739
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 5: but I think the biggest thing is to be for

740
00:41:58,239 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 5: the people.

741
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 4: And what do I mean by that?

742
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 5: Everyone wants to claim that they are for the people,

743
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 5: but very few people actually are for the people.

744
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 4: Right.

745
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 5: So what happens is they might hear like, I don't know,

746
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 5: a Venezuela in person saying, oh, thank you USA for

747
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 5: taking out maluro, do whatever you want.

748
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 4: Whatever. They might hear like the typical magrasolanos, you know,

749
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 4: and you might hear all of these perspectives that are

750
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 4: really coming from not a place of them being fascist

751
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 4: or whatever, but coming from a trauma.

752
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 5: So I think that if you want to inform yourself,

753
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 5: you need to develop the ability to think critically about

754
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 5: what's going on and be able to understand who are

755
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 5: these people and why do they have this perspective? Right,

756
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 5: So they have this perspective not because they were slave

757
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 5: owners back in Venezuela, not because they're white, some of

758
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 5: them are not white. It's not because they are like

759
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 5: pro fascism or they necessarily love the US, right, but

760
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 5: it's coming from a place of trauma.

761
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 4: And why do they have that trauma?

762
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 5: Well, they have that trauma because all of the abuses

763
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 5: that were committed, like to the Venezuelan people, were on

764
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 5: behalf of this quote unquote socialism, right, So yeah, they

765
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 5: were committed in the name of the left whatever. So

766
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 5: that's why all of a sudden they claim to be

767
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 5: very right wing, although if you speak to them, you

768
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 5: might ask them, well, what do you want to see

769
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 5: in your country? And you're like, well, this doesn't sound

770
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 5: very pro capitalism to me. But I guess the ability

771
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 5: to understand these people instead of calling them like CIA agents, fascists,

772
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 5: like they're stupid, they're idiots, don't listen to them. The

773
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 5: diasporas just full of like massad agents whatever you want

774
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 5: to call them. Right, Like I've seen every soul in

775
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 5: the book, Like any excuse in the book, like to.

776
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 4: Not listen to these people.

777
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I think this is to listen to these

778
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 5: people and try to understand and again think critically. Okay, well,

779
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 5: I understand that maybe what they are saying is not

780
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 5: necessarily great, because I also understand that the US, you know,

781
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 5: has done this, this and this, and that they are

782
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 5: coming from a place of trauma that perhaps they do

783
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 5: know what the US is history. But again, they're just desperate.

784
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 5: But let's get to the bottom of this. What is

785
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 5: their root concern the crisis in Venezuela. Right, So why

786
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 5: do they have all these like crazy ideas? Why are

787
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 5: they so crazy? So because of everything that they've endured

788
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 5: in Venezuela. So don't try to focus on like the

789
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 5: shallow part of it all, like try to go to

790
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 5: the deeper end and that way you will truly understand

791
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 5: what is going on.

792
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: Right.

793
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 5: Not to ignore these people or just like dismiss them

794
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 5: as a b or C or like a CIA fascist whatever.

795
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 4: They're not fascists. They're just people who are.

796
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 5: Traumatized, and it's really important for you to understand their

797
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 5: trauma in order to address the issues that actually concern

798
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 5: them and actually have communication with these people and include

799
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 5: them in your advocacy, and who knows, maybe you'll be

800
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 5: able to convert some to your side to right, which

801
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 5: I think that's been one of the most critical mistakes

802
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 5: that many people on the left have made, is that

803
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,479
Speaker 5: you know, we have all these Venezuelans who again claim

804
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 5: to be right wing.

805
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 4: And I'll get to a second.

806
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 5: Why say they claim to be but they claim to

807
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 5: be right wing, And again it's not just because of

808
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 5: them a maludula and Chavist regime. It's not just because

809
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 5: all of the abuse is committed to them were in

810
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 5: the name of socialism, but it is also because the

811
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 5: international left has reacted so negatively towards our cause that

812
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 5: you know, many Venezuelans decided to say, hey, you know what,

813
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 5: I'm right wing or I'm a moderate, or you know what,

814
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 5: I love the US now because all the people who

815
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 5: are anti West are pro the regime that is killing

816
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 5: my people, right right, So what's what that is doing

817
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 5: is like actually pushing these people even further when you

818
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 5: call you know, these like magasolaos, because when you call

819
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 5: them like ashes or whatever or Cia, you're just pushing

820
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 5: them even further. And at the end that sucks like

821
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:12,919
Speaker 5: for us, because then we're going to be the ones

822
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 5: we're going to be politically confused, and God knows that's

823
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 5: going to lead us to some crazy places, right.

824
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

825
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 5: So I think the first thing is actually having empathy

826
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 5: towards people and using your ability to think critically and

827
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 5: hearing people out who maybe you were told not to

828
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 5: listen to, and thinking, Okay, well I don't agree with

829
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 5: what you're saying on the surface, but I understand what

830
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 5: your roote concern is. Therefore, I think we should talk

831
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 5: about this and I can understand that in order to

832
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 5: inform myself what is truly happening to these people that

833
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 5: are making them believe these crazy things like Trump is

834
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 5: fave us, right, Yeah.

835
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 3: I think that's like really important to remember that you

836
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 3: might come a question of it as well, and who

837
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 3: might be advocating for oh, someone from Iran or someone

838
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 3: from one of these other places who might be like

839
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 3: advocating for intervention. Yeah, and like it's really important not

840
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 3: to be like, Okay, this person goes in the Maga

841
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 3: box for me, because like there are Venezuelan people who

842
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 3: are going to go in that box, right, But like

843
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 3: we have a good deal of people who like they're

844
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 3: obviously not going to be opposed to migration, and they

845
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 3: themselves and migrants exactly. That doesn't always apply. That's the

846
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 3: famous video of the Turkish guy complaining about migrants as

847
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 3: he enters the United States.

848
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 4: Like, oh, yeah, I mean, of course, I get you're

849
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 4: trying to say.

850
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like there are people whose views on like

851
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 3: the world and the way it should be might not

852
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 3: be that different from yours, and like we only find

853
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 3: out by engaging with each other in good faith and

854
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: like as people, not as tropes. Yeah, but which I

855
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 3: think is in a huge part of the problem. I

856
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 3: do think the language barrier is an issue. So many

857
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 3: people on the left want to talk about places, not

858
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 3: talk to the people, and can't. Yeah, then we only

859
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 3: see a small subset of discourse translated into English.

860
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's kind of what I mean by like,

861
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 5: you know, everyone wants to be for the people, but

862
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 5: very few people actually are because being for the people

863
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 5: takes a lot of effort, because you need to learn languages,

864
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 5: you need to visit places, you need to talk to

865
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 5: people who you might on the surface disagree with. You

866
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 5: might have to think about what they tell you in

867
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 5: order to come to a conclusion yourself about what's actually

868
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 5: going on and how you can actually support these people

869
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 5: while not compromising your own beliefs and your own knowledge

870
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 5: and experiences.

871
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 4: Right, So that takes fun work.

872
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 5: So that's what I meant by that, Like, very few

873
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 5: for the people in that sense where they engage and

874
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 5: actually go and try to talk to us. And I

875
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 5: think that's the best way of being informed of any issue,

876
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 5: is just talking to the people.

877
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 4: But it takes a lot of work. It takes a

878
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 4: lot of work.

879
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But that's what solidarity is like, it's

880
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 3: de putting in the work to take care of each

881
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 3: other exactly. It's been a failure of the non piss

882
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 3: left that we have not done more, we have not

883
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 3: reached out to more people in Venezuela, that we've not

884
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: like used our platforms, that we've not shared their voices,

885
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 3: that we haven't done more to push back on this

886
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 3: idea that like the only options for Venezuela are neoliberal

887
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 3: on their imperialism, or maybe neoliberalism is what we're doing anymore,

888
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 3: but American imperialism or like this anti imperialism of idiots.

889
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: Is there anything you'd like to plug?

890
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 3: Do you like people to find you on the internet

891
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 3: or some other stuff you'd like to direct people to.

892
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 3: Maybe they can call you a mossad or cia or whatever.

893
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can find me on my Instagram account.

894
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 5: It's et M dot a r I N Okay, so

895
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 5: just like my name deconstructing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can

896
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 5: send it to you later.

897
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, trying to think of like.

898
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 5: What else to say, but I mean, yeah, like going

899
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 5: back a little bit. Just wanted to clarify this because

900
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 5: I brought up a few times. But what I was saying,

901
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 5: you know, like looking at these Magasolanos and what I

902
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 5: mean by like their quote unquote right, they're not actually

903
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 5: right wing, like if you speak to them. And there's

904
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 5: a really good video that this guy made but it's

905
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 5: in Spanish talking about this. But what I mean is

906
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 5: many people who are Magasolanos, You ask them what do

907
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 5: you want to see in Venezuela, and what they want

908
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 5: is affordable housing, affordable healthcare, clean water, proper environmental policies.

909
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 5: They don't want any more abuses committed to the indigenous communities,

910
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 5: particular those in the Araco Mineroinoco. So you ask these

911
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,399
Speaker 5: people what they want, and this is what they want.

912
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 4: Right.

913
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 5: So when they just say that their right wing, they

914
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 5: say that their right wing simply because they are traumatized from,

915
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,320
Speaker 5: you know, this apparently socialist regime which was anything but

916
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 5: people on the left sort of you know, just supporting

917
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 5: that regime and isolating them and treating them like absolute crap.

918
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 5: So they're traumatized by both of those things, and that's

919
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 5: why they claim to be in this position. But if

920
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 5: you actually talk to them, that is not the case.

921
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 5: Keep that in mind, because it's funny to me when

922
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 5: many people say, oh, you guys just believe propaganda. That's

923
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 5: why you're pro Trump, and that's why your right wing

924
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 5: because you consumed the CIA propaganda. You guys are blinded

925
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 5: by propaganda, when in reality, what that doing is that

926
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 5: is taking away the accountability that many on the left

927
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,720
Speaker 5: should maybe, you know, maybe think about, because it hasn't

928
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 5: just been CIA propaganda, like it's also just leftists acting

929
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 5: like assholes. Like that's something that has also pushed many

930
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 5: Venezuelans away from the Left.

931
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 4: It's not just the CIA spreading propaganda.

932
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 5: It's also that the Left has acted horribly with Venezuelans,

933
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 5: and that has also pushed people away. And I think

934
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 5: if we're able to solve that issue, If I think

935
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 5: if the Left is able to see Venezuelans as human

936
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 5: beings and to have a different approach, such as you know,

937
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,439
Speaker 5: with you know what we've talked about earlier, I think

938
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 5: we're going to be able to have a better conversation

939
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 5: and have a better relationship between these two communities and

940
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 5: actually get somewhere productive.

941
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 4: But I just wanted to bring that up because I.

942
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 5: Am so tired of seeing people saying it's all CIA

943
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 5: propaganda and not really thinking, well, actually, we have also

944
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 5: done some pretty bad things and that's why these people

945
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 5: kind of have taken a dislike to us. So yeah,

946
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 5: I think I think that's pretty much it. Like, in conclusion,

947
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 5: just here hear us out. We're human and we're not

948
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 5: the perfect victims. We we're not a monolith. We were human, Yes,

949
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,479
Speaker 5: so we should be spoken to his humans and thought

950
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 5: about as humans, not as some chess piece in this

951
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 5: political game. Just include us into the conversation. I think

952
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 5: is the most important thing anyone listening to this should

953
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 5: take away.

954
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a really good place. Dan, thank

955
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 2: you so much for sharing some of that time with us.

956
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 4: No, thank you so much for giving me the space

957
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:24,919
Speaker 4: to talk.

958
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 5: I mean, it's very necessary, as you might imagine, for

959
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 5: our voices to be heard and be put out there.

960
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 5: Because I'm lucky enough to be multi lingual, I try

961
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 5: to do my best and speak in other languages so

962
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 5: other people understand what's going on in our minds and

963
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 5: in our communities. So I am very grateful that you're

964
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 5: able to have me here and to actually listen. It's

965
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 5: not something many people do, so I really do valuate great.

966
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 2: Thank you great.

967
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,919
Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

968
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

969
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio.

970
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 4: App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

971
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 1: You listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for

972
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks

973
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: for listening.