1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Vie Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. We recently 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: got an email from listener Becky who included some episode suggestions, 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: and one of those suggestions really caught my eye. It 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: was the muffin Man, on whom the nursery rhyme is based. 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: And actually, my nine year old grandson thinks nursery rhymes 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: would make a perfect impossible episode series. And I thought, 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:42,959 Speaker 1: you know what, Becky's grandson, you were correct. That is 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: a perfect impossible episode series. And it's been more than 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: six months since we have done a six Impossible episodes. Um, 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: if you're new to the show, that's when we round 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: up together six things that you know, maybe have something 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: in common, maybe don't, but for one reason or another, 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: I can't really each be their own episode. So you 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: know it's time for one of those. We're going to 17 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: talk about nursery rhymes. And just to level set, we 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: are focused on English language poems for young children. Here 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: the ones that are generally lumped together as mother Goose, 20 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: although there are similar poems in other languages like, that's 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: a little outside our scope today, right, And before we 22 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: get to the muffin man, we have to ask the 23 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: more general question who was this Mother Goose? Anyway? In 24 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: the US, in particular, she is associated with short, often 25 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: nonsensical rhymes for young children, many of which purportedly have 26 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: hidden historical meanings. But where did that connection come from? 27 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: So one very widely spread but untrue version of this 28 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: is that Mother Goose was from Boston, Massachusetts. There is 29 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: a gravestone at the Granary burying Ground that has become 30 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: known as Mother Goose's grave. It is the gravestone of 31 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: Mary Goose, who was the first wife of Isa Goose. 32 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: He may have actually been known by the last name 33 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: ver Goose or Vertigoose also, and Mary Goose died in 34 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: sixteen ninety at the age of forty two. Just going 35 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: to tell you now, I'm putting the name Vertigoose on 36 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: my list of possible future pet names. So it was good. 37 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: A lot of the debunking of this whole idea focuses 38 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 1: on this gravestone and how Mary Goose was definitely not 39 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: Mother Goose. But some of those debunkers go on to 40 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: say that Mother Goose was really Isaac's second wife, Elizabeth 41 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: Foster Goose. Isaac and Mary had ten children together before 42 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: she died, and then Isaac and Elizabeth had six more. 43 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: According to the lore, Elizabeth entertained all of those kids, 44 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: that's sixteen if you were doing the math, and then 45 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: their kids with all kinds of stories and songs and rhymes, 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: which were published as a book in seventeen But that 47 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: is not true either, And getting to the bottom of 48 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: that took me down and enormous and convoluted at a 49 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: hole which now everyone listening to the show gets to 50 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: go along with. Also, the first place that I found 51 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: this whole story beyond just a couple of sentence recap 52 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: that basically went here's the story. It's not true, was 53 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: in The Only True Mother Goose Melodies without addition or abridgment, 54 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: embracing also a relatable life of the Goose family never 55 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: before published. This book was published by Monroe and Francis 56 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: of Boston, and the title page has this statement down 57 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: at the bottom. Quote entered according to Act of Congress 58 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: in the year eighteen thirty three by Monroe and Francis 59 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: in the Clerk's Office of the District Court of Massachusetts. 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: There are lots of copies of this book in the 61 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: collections of various libraries, and there are multiple scans of 62 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: it online, and they generally list its publication year as 63 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: eighty three. But it's relatable Life of the Goose Family 64 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: was not never before published as claim. It was reprinted 65 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: from the Boston Evening Transcript, which ran it under the 66 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: headline Cotton Mother and Mother Goose and the byline requiescat. 67 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: This piece starts by mentioning that transcript correspondent N. B. 68 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: S That's initials had recently confirmed the birthplace of Cotton Mather, 69 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: and then it just makes this hard turn onto the 70 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: topic of the Goose family and Mother Goose. Here's a 71 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: quote quote. The first book of the kind known to 72 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: be printed in this country bears the title of Songs 73 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: for the Nursery or Mother Goose's Melodies for Children, something 74 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: probably intended to represent a goose with a very long 75 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: neck and mouth wide open. Covered a large part of 76 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: the title page at the bottom of which printed by T. 77 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: Fleet at his printing house, Putting Lane seventeen nineteen, price 78 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: two coppers. Several pages were missing, so that the whole 79 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: number could not be ascertained. It goes on to talk 80 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: about Thomas Fleet fleeing in Lynn following the riots that 81 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,799 Speaker 1: broke out after the trial of controversial clergyman Henry so Cheval, 82 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: and then it circles back to what any of this 83 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: has to do with Cotton. Mother Mother officiated the marriage 84 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: of Thomas Fleet to Elizabeth Goose, oldest daughter of Isaac 85 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth. This piece concludes, quote Cotton Mother and Mother 86 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: Goose thus stand in juxtaposition, and as the former was 87 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: instrumental in cementing the union which resulted in placing the 88 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: latter so conspicuously before the world, it is but just 89 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: that it should be so. Although the one was a 90 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: learned man, a most voluminous writer, and published a great 91 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: many books, some wise and some foolish, it may well 92 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: be doubted whether anyone or all of them together have 93 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: passed through so many editions, been read by so many 94 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands, not to say millions, put so many 95 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: persons to sleep, or in general, done so much good 96 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 1: to the world as the simple melodies of the other. 97 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: This whole thing is a little weird. It's purportedly about 98 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: the Goose family and Mother Goose, but there is also 99 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: this kind of strained connection to Puritan minister Cotton Mother. 100 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 1: It insults Elizabeth Goose, saying that her singing was quote 101 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: greatly to the annoyance of the whole neighborhood, to Fleet 102 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: in particular, who was a man fond of quiet. And 103 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: it insults Cotton Mother, suggesting that he was less influential 104 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: than Mother Goose, who, as the writer had already established, 105 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: was annoying. By extension, it insults NBS. That's a genealogist, 106 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: historian and future mayor of Boston, Nathaniel Bradstreet shirtlift for 107 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: bothering to care about where Cotton Mother was born in 108 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: the first place. To make it weirder, this piece does 109 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: not seem to have existed in eighteen thirty three, when 110 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: the book that it was in was supposedly published. It 111 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: was printed in the Boston trans Script on January four, 112 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty. We've talked on the show before about old 113 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: newspapers reprinting work without acknowledging what they were doing, but 114 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: it really doesn't seem like that's what happened here, or 115 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 1: if it did, it was not reprinting something from nearly 116 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: as far back as eighteen thirty three, because at that 117 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: point Nathaniel brad Street Shirtlift was only twenty three years 118 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: old and was in medical school. He graduated in eighteen 119 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: thirty four, and his first printed work came out at 120 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: about that same time. But it was not about Cotton 121 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: mother's birthplace at all. It was an epitome of phrenology. 122 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: He did not start out publishing work on history and 123 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: genealogy until much later, possibly as late as eighteen forty nine. 124 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: In nineteen o nine, someone started trying to figure out 125 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: who wrote this Boston transcript piece, which by that point 126 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: had been reprinted in a lot of Mother Goose books. 127 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: They sent a query to the Transcripts Notes and Query section, 128 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: which ran on April tenth of that year, and that 129 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: read end quote in the reproduction by Lee and Shepherd 130 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: August five of the Monroe and Francis eighteen thirty three 131 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: edition of Mother Goose Melodies. Is an eight page note 132 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: history of the Goose family copied from the transcript, marked 133 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: copyright secured, and signed requiescat. Is it permissible at this 134 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: later date to say who requiescat was? The answer was 135 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: printed the following Saturday, April seventeen. Quote. It has been 136 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: handed down at the Transcript office that Lynd M. Walter, 137 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: the editor of the Transcript from eighteen thirty to eighteen 138 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: forty two, wrote an Addisonian style communication from himself to 139 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: himself to be printed in the paper of which he 140 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: was the editor, and that Requiescott was his signature he 141 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: sometimes used. It is presumable that the inquiry may refer 142 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: to the use of the same signature of a later 143 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: year than eighteen forty two. We don't really know whether 144 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: the Transcript was being intentionally kg or if they didn't 145 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: track down the Cotton Mather and Mother Goose piece in 146 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: their own archives to see what this letter writing was 147 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: asking about. In nineteen o nine, that truly might have 148 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: been an undertaking, especially if they were focused on the 149 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: completely wrong year of eighteen thirty three. But the reason 150 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: Walter stopped editing the paper in eighteen forty two is 151 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: that he died, so he's definitely not Requiescott. In this case, 152 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: it may have been a New York Times reporter who 153 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: sent this query, because The Times weighed in on all 154 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: this a week later, noting that Thomas Fleet's great grandson, 155 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: John Fleet Elliott, had revived this story about his ancestor 156 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: around eighteen sixty and that the only evidence for a 157 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: seventeen nineteen Mother Goose book was Elliott's statements and this 158 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: Boston transcript piece. It's possible that Requiascot was John Fleet Elliott. 159 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: Some sources just say this definitively, although they don't really 160 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: explain how they came to that conclusion. In the words 161 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: of the New York Times quote, evidently this is a 162 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: Boston joke, but there are other more serious interpretations as well. 163 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: In a Twitter thread in twenty nineteen, historian Caitlin G. 164 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: De Angelis made the argument that just before the Civil War, 165 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: Elliott made up this story to minimize both the greater 166 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: history of slavery in Massachusetts and his own family's connection 167 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: to it. Thomas Fleet had an enslaved workforce at his 168 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: home and at the printing shop where the seventeen nineteen 169 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: edition was supposedly printed. Of course, none of this is 170 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: mentioned in Elliott's story. Elliot claimed that this had been 171 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: part of his family's lore for years, and then in 172 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty six he had been talking to some friends 173 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: about it in the offices of the Massachusetts Hospital Life 174 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: Insurance Company. He said that Edward A. Crowd and Shield 175 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: had overheard this conversation and came over to say he 176 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: had seen a copy of a seventeen nineteen book and 177 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: the collections of the American Antiquarian Society. But Crowded Shield 178 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: died in eighteen fifty nine, so when this story started 179 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: to spread after eighteen sixty, he was not around to 180 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: confirm it. Sort of convenient, as we said earlier, this 181 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: story was reprinted in a lot of Mother Goose collections 182 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: and in other publications after eighteen sixty, and it has 183 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: stuck around in spite of decades of attempts to debunk it. 184 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: In eighteen eighty eight, after almost thirty years of being 185 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: pestered about it, the American Antiquarian Society printed a clear 186 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: and annoyed sounding denial in its Report of the Librarian, 187 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: stating unequivocally that it had no seventeen nineteen Mother Goose 188 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: in its collections and never had. This report states that 189 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: the earliest Mother Goose in the Society's collection was one 190 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: printed by Isaiah Thomas in seventeen eighty six or seventeen 191 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: eighty seven. That date is unclear because the first twelve 192 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: pages of that book are missing. It is possible that 193 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: that is the work Crown and Shield saw and told 194 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: Elliott about, or it's possible that Elliott fabricated some impossible 195 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: to disprove back up about a conversation with the late 196 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: Crown and Shield when he was pressed for details later on. 197 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: The general conclusion at this point is that the supposed 198 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: seventeen nineteen Mother Goose collection printed by Thomas Fleet simply 199 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: did not exist. Among other things, and the words of 200 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: the preface to a later, completely different Mother Goose collection, 201 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: there's this explanation, which I dearly love quote. If there 202 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: had been an addition printed in Boston in seventeen nineteen, 203 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: we can safely say that Benjamin Franklin would have had 204 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: a copy. Not only was there no such book, and 205 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: Franklin's collections, Franklin apparently made no reference to Mother Goose 206 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: of any type and any of the written work that 207 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: he left behind. On top of all of this, the 208 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: name Other Goose has existed since at least the sixteen twenties. 209 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: In France, the first use of Mother Goose in writings 210 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: was in Charles Perrot's collection of fairy Tales, which is 211 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: printed in sixteen ninety seven and that had the subtitle 212 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: Le Comte de mamere Lloyd or Tales of My Mother Goose. 213 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: This book was translated into English in seventeen twenty nine. Yeah, 214 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: those were stories that we would probably call fairy tales 215 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: rather than nursery rhymes, things like Cinderella. But by the 216 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: mid seventeen hundreds, John Newberry had published Mother Goose's Melody 217 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: or Sonnets for the Cradle, and that is when the 218 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: name Mother Goose really started becoming so clearly associated with 219 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: nursery rhymes. The term nursery rhyme was first used in 220 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: writing in the book Nursery Rhymes from the Royal Collection, 221 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: and that was published for the Royal Museum in eighteen 222 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: twenty And if you're still wondering about that eighteen thirty 223 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: three publication date, that sparked a lot of confusion. During 224 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: this research, Monroe and Francis printed a lot of Mother 225 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: Goose editions, starting in the eighteen twenties and going right 226 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: up until eighteen forty five, with various material added or 227 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: changed around from one addition to the next. Many of 228 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: the poems had previously been printed by Isaiah Thomas in 229 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: seventeen eighty five, and that edition was mostly the same 230 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: as John Newberry seventeen sixty five volume. But the Monroe 231 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: and Francis collection was really the first collection of Mother 232 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: Goose rhymes to be distributed outside of a publisher's local area, 233 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: and it probably had as much to do with the 234 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: connection between Mother Goose and nursery rhymes as John Newberry's 235 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: earlier work After eighteen thirty three. A lot of these 236 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: different printings have the exact same copyright statement that we 237 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: read back at the beginning of the show, regardless of 238 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: when they were actually published, and some of these are 239 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: a little weird. As one example, one of the versions 240 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: that I found as I was trying to track down 241 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: what was going on with all this was Mother Goose's Melodies, 242 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: the only pure edition containing all that has ever come 243 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: to light of her memorable writings, together with those which 244 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: have been discovered among the manuscripts of herculaneum. Likewise, everyone 245 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: recently found in the same stone box which hold the 246 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: golden plates of the Book of Mormon, the whole compared 247 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: revised and sanctioned by one of the annotators of the 248 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: Goose family. In theory all these others, like all these others, 249 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: this is probably published in three That might actually be 250 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,479 Speaker 1: the case because it seems to be like a job 251 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: at the Latter day Saints roughly three years after the 252 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: Book of Mormon was first published. So after we take 253 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break, we're going to talk about some 254 00:15:52,520 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: famous rhymes and there possibly historical interpretations. So we're now 255 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: after that first impossible episode of who in the world 256 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: Mother Goose was? We're going to start the next impossible 257 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: thing in the series with that listener request on the 258 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: muffin Man. But before we do, we need another level set. 259 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: According to the Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, more than 260 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: forty percent of the rhymes that were printed in that 261 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: dictionary were written down by the end of the seventeen hundreds, 262 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: but many of them were possibly passed along orally before 263 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: being written down. So it's really possible that the vast 264 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: majority of nursery rhymes that still exists in English today 265 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: that a lot of us know off the top of 266 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: our heads, are more than three hundred years old. And 267 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: even though many of these poems are hundreds of years old, 268 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: they weren't really the subject of much academic study until 269 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: more recently, and that happened intend with a rise in 270 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: scholarly research into folklore that happened in the late nineteenth 271 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: and early twentieth centuries, and it's really during this wave 272 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: of research that people started writing about hidden meetings in 273 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: nursery rhymes, drawing from the poems, language and imagery. A 274 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: big contributor to this field was Katherine elw Was Thomas, 275 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: who published The Real Personages of Mother Goose in nineteen thirty. 276 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: But many scholars dismissed these kinds of conclusions out of 277 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: hand as hemorism. Ehemorists lived around three d b c. 278 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 1: And wrote a utopian work in which the Greek gods 279 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: were really mortal people who were worshiped after their deaths 280 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: because they had just really incredible accomplishments in their lives. 281 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: So humorism is the interpretation of myths as though they 282 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: document actual real historical people, or in this case, interpreting 283 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: nursery rhymes as though they depict actual historical events. In 284 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: other words, sometimes this really seems like more of an 285 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: inter rotation of a poem than an actual documented connection 286 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: to a real historical person. Yeah, I kind of chalk 287 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 1: this up to pattern recognition, right where it's like, absolutely, 288 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: this is very similar to this thing that happened historically, 289 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: but there's no there's no real evidentiary link. Yeah, So 290 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: with that caveat, we're going to move right into the 291 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: muffin Man. Do you know the muffin Man, The muffin Man, 292 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: the muffin Man. I'm not gonna sing it. Do you 293 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: know the muffin Man who lives on Drury Lane? Yes, 294 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 1: I know the muffin Man, the muffin Man, the muffin Man. Yes, 295 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: I know the muffin man who lives on Drury Lane. 296 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: According to the Singing Game by folklorists Iona and Peter Opie, 297 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: also known as the Opies, the oldest known copy of 298 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: this rhyme is in the collection of the Body and Library, 299 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: and it dates back to eighty It's phrasing is slightly different, though, 300 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: it's don't you know rather than do you know the 301 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: muffin Man? Even though neither of us is going to 302 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: sing on this episode. This rhyme seems to have started 303 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: out as a singing game with people standing in a 304 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: circle and one person would sing the do you know 305 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: part to the person standing on one side of them, 306 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: and that person would answer yes, I know back at them, 307 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: before turning to the person on their other side and 308 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: starting it over again, like a game of telephone sort of, 309 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: but repeating these same two verses over and over for 310 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: as long as people could not fall over themselves laughing. 311 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: I think might not take very long, because this is 312 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: very silly. In early versions of the song, the Muffin 313 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: Man actually lived on Crumpet Lane instead of Drury Lane, 314 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: with crumpets and muffins both being baked goods and Drury 315 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: Lane being in an actual real street in London. I 316 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: would like to visit Crumpet Lane. It is possible that 317 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: the query that started this whole episode stemmed actually from 318 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: a TikTok video about the Muffin Man that started circulating 319 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: in January one, claiming that this song was meant to 320 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: warn children about a real serial killer named Frederick Thomas 321 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: Lynnwood who killed fifteen children and seven rival pastry chefs 322 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century, and he was purportedly known as 323 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: the Drury Lane Dicer. However, this information seems to have 324 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,959 Speaker 1: come from a website called Encyclopedia, the Content Free Encyclopedia. 325 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: As of April, which is when I did this research, 326 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: the Encyclopedia entry for the Muffin Man starts with a 327 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: quote that has attributed to Oscar Wilde, who supposedly said quote, 328 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: his muffins suck, his pastry sucks. He sucks. He didn't, 329 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: he didn't say that. There's also a photo that is 330 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: supposedly of Lynnwood that is credited as being taken by Witchcraft. 331 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,959 Speaker 1: H this website does not document real information, and the 332 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,239 Speaker 1: TikTok video that went really viral did not really make 333 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: that clear. I like photographs taken by Witchcraft. I mean 334 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: it seems totally legitimate to me. Right. This is really 335 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: probably just a silly song about baked goods, possibly alluding 336 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: to a real baker who lived in the vicinity of 337 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: Covent Garden in London. No evidence there was any serial 338 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: killer involved. Definitely not. And now we're going to move 339 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: on to Ring around the Rosy. And while this is 340 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: probably the most well known nursery rhyme backstory, it also 341 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: seemed like we would get a lot of questions about 342 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: why we did not talk about it. If we did 343 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: not talk about it, a lot of folks in the 344 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: US learned this rhyme as ring around the rosy pocket 345 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: full of Posy's ashes, ashes, we all fall down. Oh 346 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: the memories I have of singing this song as a child, 347 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: But in most academic work and in other parts of 348 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: the world, the lyrics to this song go more like 349 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: ring a ring o roses, a pocket full of posy's 350 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: a tissue, a tissue, we all fall down like the 351 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: muffin man. This one is often sung with children holding 352 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: hands and moving in a circle and dramatically falling down 353 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: at the end, which frankly was always the best. Yes, 354 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: sometimes there is one child, presumably the rosy that it references, 355 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: in the middle of the circle. So there's a pretty 356 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: persistent idea that this rhyme is about the Great Plague 357 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: of London, or maybe the Black Death or some earlier 358 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 1: major outbreak of the plague. The ring of roses is 359 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: purportedly a rash that was the first symptom of illness, 360 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: and the posies are flowers and herbs that people carried 361 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: to protect themselves from bad air. The ashes ashes is 362 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: about the ashes of burned bodies, or if you're doing 363 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: the a tissue version, that's a reference to sneezing, which 364 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: was supposed supposedly like you're in the stage ubonic plague 365 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: involved sneezing for some reason, and then we all fall 366 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: down because we have died. Yeah, we should point out 367 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: to that that a tissue is not tissue like a 368 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: piece of tissue, but it's meant to be like a 369 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,479 Speaker 1: phonetic of what it sounds like when you see it's 370 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: like an automatopia for sneezing. Yeah, it's a t I 371 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: s h o o um like shoe. But the plague 372 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: did not cause a rosy rash or sneezing, and no 373 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: references connecting this song to the plague exists until the 374 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: mid twentieth century. According to Snopes, the first instance was 375 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: in James Lesour's The Plague and the Fire, and that 376 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: came out in ninete. Meanwhile, the earliest versions of the 377 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: rhyme itself date back to England in the eighties. That's 378 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: more than two hundred years after the Great Plague of 379 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: London and five hundred years after the Black Death. Has 380 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: a long time to go between when the thing happened 381 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: and when this appeared in writing for the first time. 382 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: These early versions also very a lot. Once you get 383 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: past the ring or ring a rose is a pocket 384 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: full of Posy's part, there are lines in different versions 385 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: about everything from Moses to fairy crowns to girls name Josie. 386 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: There's an eight eight three version from the US that 387 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: starts ring around the rosie, then the next line is 388 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: squat among the posies with Josie. By the late eighteen hundreds, 389 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: there were dozens of versions of this poem in circulation, 390 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: many of them, as Tracy just pointed out, wildly different 391 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: from one another, none of which seem to have anything 392 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: at all in common with the plague. And there are 393 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: also nineteenth century poems from other parts of Europe, including Italy, Germany, France, 394 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: and Switzerland that start out very similarly to ring a 395 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 1: Ring of roses, but then they go into totally different 396 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: and again very non plague related directions. So the most 397 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: commonly accepted interpretations of this poem are a little more vague. 398 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 1: But it's just kind of a reference to springtime festivals 399 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: that involved dancing in circles, or maybe folklore that was 400 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: connected to things like flowers or fairy rings. The mischievous 401 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: part of me wants to write a very serious seeming 402 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: analysis of this where it's actually about pressing your own 403 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: liquor using flower pedals and then you're so drunk you 404 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: fall down. Yeah, that it towards like real historical research. Yeah, 405 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: this one in particular reminds me of tweets that I 406 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: see from time to time that say I was today 407 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: years old when I found out blah, and it's a 408 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: thing that person observed and they made a connection about something, 409 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: and it's like, but that's not that's not real. Actually, 410 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: Arby's was not coined for RB, standing for roast beef. 411 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: It was the brothers that founded the restaurant chain. And uh, 412 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: and that's the thing that you saw that seemed like 413 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: the logical explanation, but is not the correct one, right, 414 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: So moving on, we mentioned the real personages of Mother 415 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: Goose by Katherine Elwis Thomas earlier. Neither of those last 416 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: two nursery rhyme interpretations have anything to do with her work, 417 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: and it would be a real disservice to leave anybody 418 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: with the impression that they did. Thomas's work is extensively 419 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: researched and footnoted with cross references between oldest known copies 420 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: of nursery rhymes and actual primary source documents. She did 421 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: a really good job. So it is neither made up 422 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: like the muffin Man story, nor based on any vague 423 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: ideas about the plague, as is the case with Ring 424 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: around the Rosie. At the same time, there are other 425 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: scholars of folklore, history and literature who find her work 426 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: and other similar work, to be speculative at best. Yeah, 427 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot. I mean, the word bodily 428 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: and appears in that book like hundreds of times in 429 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: references to documents that are in that library and the 430 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: first appearances of poems ever in writing, and uh and 431 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: all that. But still sometimes it's like, okay, but it's 432 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: not clear how you got from point A to point 433 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: B in in this very well documented series of connections. 434 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: So chapter three of her book, The Real Personages of 435 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: Mother Goose is about Little Jack Horner, and that's the 436 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: poem that goes Little Jack Horner sat in a corner 437 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,959 Speaker 1: eating his Christmas pie. He put in his thumb and 438 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: pulled out a plum and said, what a brave boy 439 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: am I? Some versions including the one that I learned 440 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: as a child and on what a good boy rather 441 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: than brave boy? And according to Thomas Jack Horner was 442 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: Thomas Horner, steward to Abbot Whiting of Glastonbury, and during 443 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: the dissolution of the monasteries. The abbot tasked him with 444 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 1: carrying a dozen deeds to King Henry the Eighth. These 445 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,479 Speaker 1: deeds represented land that the Church was seeding to the 446 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 1: crown in order to appease the king. Because travel was 447 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: not particularly safe, the twelve deeds were concealed, according to 448 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: the poem, in a pie along the way. Horner, whether 449 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: accidentally or on purpose, reached in and pulled out the 450 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: deed to the estate of Mills Park, which became home 451 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: to the Horner family for the next five centuries. The abbot, 452 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: who had sent him on this errand was later drawn 453 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: through the town on a hurdle and executed, And although 454 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: the accounts of the day don't say that it was 455 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: because there was a deed missing in the king's delivery, 456 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,479 Speaker 1: Thomas makes that connection. And she also connects the idea 457 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: of the Christmas pie to a letter from Richard Pollard 458 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: to Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex and Vicar of General 459 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: Church Affairs under Henry the Eighth, detailing the execution before 460 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: saying quote, I suppose it will be near Christmas before 461 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: I shall have surveyed the lands of Glastonbury. This story 462 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: about Jack Horner has been around for a while. It 463 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: shows up in notes and queries in the eighteen eighties, 464 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: and there are early versions of the poem with pretty 465 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: similar words dating back at least one years earlier than that. 466 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: That is still much later than the Dissolution of the Monasteries, 467 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: which took place from fifteen thirty six to forty one, 468 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: but Thomas also draws in much older poems that reference 469 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: plums and December and treason in some way as a 470 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: sort of bridge. Thomas also maintains that this is the 471 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: house that Jack built, Jack be Nimble, and Jack the 472 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: Giant Killer may all be about this same man. To me, 473 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: it's equally probable that Jack was a very common ra 474 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: and a very common nickname used for just about everybody 475 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: at the same time. There's also another poem called Nanby 476 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: Panby a panegyric on the New versification, addressed to a 477 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: p Esquire. This was written by Henry Carey in the 478 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: seventeen twenties, and it contains a really similar passage to 479 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: this nursery rhyme that starts now he sings of Jackie 480 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: Horner sitting in the chimney corner. Namby Pamby was a 481 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: satire of the work of Ambrose Phillips doesn't seem to 482 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: have a huge connection to the dissolution of the monasteries, 483 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: and the Horner family, for their part, has maintained that 484 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: the family legally purchased this property in three they did 485 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: not steal it from the king. There's historical documentation about 486 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: that part up. Also, they've pointed out that their ancestor, Thomas, 487 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: was not known as Jack and that he took the 488 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: pie being that delivery, he took that to Henry the eighth. Intact, 489 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: they sort of regard this whole idea that this poem 490 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: is about their ancestor being basically a slander onto their family. Okay, 491 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: let's take a break and then we'll come back and 492 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: get some rocket by baby time. In moving on, I 493 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: picked the two other rhymes that we're going to talk 494 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,479 Speaker 1: about in this episode because they're possible backstories or topics 495 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: we have covered before on the show. And first up 496 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: is rockabye Baby on the treetop. When the wind blows, 497 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: the creator will rock. When the bow breaks, the cradle 498 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: will fall, and down will come baby cradle and all. 499 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: In some versions that starts out hushaby instead of rockabye. 500 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: This poem has been around since at least seventeen sixty five, 501 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: and it's one of the ones that often comes up 502 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,239 Speaker 1: as an example when people talk about how scary and 503 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: weird and violent nursery rhymes can be. People sing this 504 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: as a lullaby, but it is about a baby falling 505 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: out of a tree. So a popular interpretation of this 506 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: rhyme as that it is about James Francis Edwards Stewart, 507 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: son of King James the seventh of Scotland and second 508 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: of England, who was born on June tenth. King James 509 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: was Catholic, and when James Francis was born, that meant 510 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: that the Catholic king now had an heir, and that 511 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: was much to the disappointment of Protestants, who on it 512 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: a Protestant monarch. This led to a whole conspiracy theory 513 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: that the younger James was not to the king's son 514 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: at all, but was an impostor who had been sneaked 515 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: into the bed of James's wife, Mary of Modena in 516 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: a warming pan. We covered this in our episode on 517 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: the Jacobite Uprising of seventy So in this interpretation, the 518 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: cradle on the treetop is that warming pan that was 519 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: concealing the old pretender James Francis Edward Stewart, and that 520 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: the cradle and all fall at the end of it 521 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: is the fall of the House of Stuart after the 522 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: Glorious Revolution. But there's just really not a lot to 523 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: connect to the point A to point B here, as 524 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: I've sort of referenced earlier. Catherine Elis Thomas notes that 525 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: a longer poem that was printed in Poems and Songs 526 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: of the Bodily and Library titled Father Peter's Policy Discovered 527 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: or the Prince of Wales Proved a Popish Perkin, which 528 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: was first published in nine She She notes the similarities 529 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: in these two things, and a big similarity is that 530 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: each stanza of that poem ends with sing Lulla bye baby, 531 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: bye bye bye. But honestly, that seems like a pretty 532 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: tenuous connection to a different poem that first appeared in 533 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: print a hundred years later, right, It's like, well, there 534 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: are syllables that are the same. Other proposed interpretations involved 535 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: real babies in trees. There's the Kenny family who worked 536 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: as charcoal burners and lived in and around a yu 537 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: tree in Derbyshire in the eighteenth century and the Kenny's 538 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: purportedly used a hollowed out tree bow as a cradle. 539 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: Another conjecture, again without evidence, is that this poem really 540 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: has its origins in North America rather than the UK, 541 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: and that it's based on indigenous peoples using cradle boards. 542 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: Since the poem first appeared in print in England, that 543 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: would mean someone had either returned to Land after traveling 544 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: to North America or someone in North America had written 545 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: to someone in England about this practice. Yeah. So again 546 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: all of this is really speculative. And to move on 547 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,919 Speaker 1: to our last mother goose rhyme for today, there's Mistress Mary. 548 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 1: Quite contrary, how does your garden grow with silver bells 549 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 1: and cockle shells and pretty maids all in a row? 550 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: I also learned this with slightly different words when I 551 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: was a kid, because it started Mary Mary rather than 552 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: Mistress Mary, and it said little maids instead of pretty maids. Um. 553 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: Now I also learned it Mary Mary. But I I 554 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: have a vague recollection of one side of my family 555 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: using little in one side using pretty And maybe they're 556 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: being a pretty serious discussion with a cousin about the 557 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: whole situation. Yeah, because these are very important matters when 558 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: you're like nine um. One of the popular interpretations of 559 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: this poem is that it's about Mary, Queen of Scott's, 560 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: and that maids all in a row are her four 561 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: ladies in waiting. That's Mary Beaten, Mary Seaton, Mary Fleming 562 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: and Mary Livingstone, who accompanied her when she left for 563 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: the court of France in she was going to the 564 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: home of her fiance, Frances Dauphin of France, when both 565 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: Mary and Frances were still young children. And in this interpretation, 566 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: the bells and shells are described either as ornaments and 567 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: gifts she was given or, in the case of cockles, 568 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: of food that she was likely to eat. We've we've 569 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: talked about Mary, Queen of Scott's and a lot of 570 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: previous episodes of the show. There's also an interpretation that 571 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: this is about a different Mary, that it is Mary Tudor, 572 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: also known as Mary the First of England. He was 573 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: also nicknamed Bloody Mary, and in this interpretation, the silver 574 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,800 Speaker 1: bells and the cockle shells are really references to torture 575 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: devices and not jewelry and ornaments and tasty food. In 576 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: the Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, the opies note that 577 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: this poem's first known appearance in writing dates back to 578 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: Tom Thumb's Pretty Songbook, which was published around set. That 579 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: makes it about two hundred years after both Mary Tutor 580 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: and Mary Queen of Scott's lived, and that first appearance 581 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: doesn't end with little Maids all in a row, it's 582 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 1: and so my garden grows. The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery 583 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: Rhymes entry for this one actually starts off with the 584 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: idea that it might be a word picture of a 585 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: convent and a sentence that really could apply to pretty 586 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: much everything we've talked about today. The opi has described 587 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: those other possible explanations as quote. Such assertions are, of 588 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: course the work of the happy guessers. Who doesn't want 589 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: to be a happy guesser? Tracy. I'm so glad you 590 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: did this one, and I know you've said that, you know, 591 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: we may do another one of these someday because they're 592 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: fun and and you have already done the legwork. I'm 593 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: figuring out that hole who is mother goose tangle, and 594 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: we will we won't have to do that again. I'll 595 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: talk about that some more in our behind the scenes. Um. 596 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: I enjoy uh sometimes when I find something that's just 597 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: a tangle to try to figure out how to how 598 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,399 Speaker 1: to explain it or what really happened. Um, this one 599 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: was inordinately tangled, and I spent way more time on 600 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: it than I was expecting. Um, so we'll talk a 601 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: bit more about that when we do our behind the scenes. 602 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 1: Do you also have a little bit of listener mail? 603 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: I knew, and it also was about a poem condensed coincidentally, Uh, 604 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: this came from Alicia, and Alicia says, high ladies. I 605 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: was listening to your January episode about Andrew Cross and 606 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: was shocked to hear you say the word hoblogy. It's 607 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: a word I learned as a child in a poem 608 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: taught to me by my grandmother, but I have never 609 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,720 Speaker 1: met anyone outside my family who had ever heard it. 610 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 1: It's one of those knee bouncing rhymes. Incidentally, she said 611 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: it hoblogy. I think I might have said hobbogee in 612 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 1: the episode. I don't remember. My earliest memory of Grandma 613 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: is her bouncing me on her knee while reciting the rhyme. 614 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: It goes like this, Ladies go to market, trip, trip trip, 615 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: the gentleman come after them trot, trot, trot, Then come 616 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: the country clowns bringing taters to the town. Hoblogy. Hobblogy, hobbla, 617 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,720 Speaker 1: hobbla hoblogy. My best guess is that this was passed 618 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: down through her mother's family, who came from England in 619 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy seven, as I found a very similar version 620 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: in a book about nursery rhymes from Wales, across the 621 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: river from Andrew Cross's ancestral home. Anyway, I love that connection, 622 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: and it brought back fond memories of my grandma. And 623 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: while I'm writing, because I know you both love pet pictures, 624 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: i'd love to introduce you to my cat, Herschel, name 625 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: for Caroline Herschel, whom I learned about from your podcast. 626 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: The joke I like to tell is that he's named 627 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: for Caroline Herschel, who discovered the planet Uranus with her brother, 628 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,760 Speaker 1: who I leave unnamed. It's a cheeky push back against 629 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: all the women whose contributions in history have been downplayed 630 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: or forgotten while the credit has been given to their 631 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: male partners. No one gets that, though, and the jokes 632 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: are never funny after being explained. So I'm the only 633 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,720 Speaker 1: one who laughs or maybe it's not even that funny 634 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: sigh um. And then we got a cat picture, so good, 635 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: look at this kitties, kitties. That cat has the sweetest face. Yeah. Uh. 636 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: And a little patch of for that if you're not 637 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: looking closely, almost looks like a bow on this print out. 638 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for your wonderful podcast. I can't recommend it enough 639 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: to everyone I talked to you. Your well researched and 640 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 1: balanced look at complex people in situations have been refreshing. 641 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 1: Laughing all by myself over here, Alicia uh. And then 642 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: Alicia goes on to say that I especially enjoyed your 643 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: episode about the last Costmith. Thank you so much. I 644 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: had never heard that poem before, but boy do I 645 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: like the part about bringing the taters to town? Do 646 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,839 Speaker 1: you love potatoes? Uh? If you would like to send 647 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,760 Speaker 1: us an email about this, are anither podcast, were history 648 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: podcast that I Heart radio dot com. We're all over 649 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: social media at missed in History. That's where you'll fund 650 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: our Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and Instagram. And you can subscribe 651 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,919 Speaker 1: to our show on Apple podcast and I Heart Radio 652 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: app and anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Stuff you 653 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: missed in history class? Is a production of I heart Radio. 654 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i 655 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 656 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.