1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: My welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hey, you welcome to Stuff to 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert lamp and I'm 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick and Robert. I have just been out on 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: vacation for a bit and I came back to find you, uh, 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: absolutely rare and to go about coprophagia. That's right. Uh. 7 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: The consumption of poopy, which I figured is is ideal. 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: You should be listening to this episode during the week 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: of American Thanksgiving. It's a time when people eat too much, 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: and they eat a lot of gray and brownish foods 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: that are too rich. They probably shouldn't be eating all 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: of this stuff, but they do anyway. So it's a 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: perfect time to talk about poop eating. Cram down the 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: gullet with loving care, uh, in the presence of one's 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: family and and in laws and all that. Now, before 16 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: anybody turns us off, I do want to drive home 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: that most of what we're gonna be talking about in 18 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: this episode, UH relates to animals eating poop. As the 19 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: title of the episode implies. At the very end, when 20 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: when everyone's ready, we may talk a little bit about humans, 21 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: but first we will deal with animals before we deal 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: with the added complexities of human beings. Now, I'm sure 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 1: the listeners out there are wondering the same thing I was. 24 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: So I got back from vacation to find you super 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: excited about animals eating poop, and I was like, well, 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: what got you going on this, Robert? Why did you 27 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: fling yourself headlong into a pit of coprophagia for the 28 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: week of Thanksgiving? Well? I originally had the idea to 29 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: do it after watching a David Attenborough narrated special titled 30 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: Spy in the Pod, which is fun. It's a fun 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: little show in which they have a remote control robot 32 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: it's hanging out with elephants, and they briefly cover coprophagia 33 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: practiced by elephant calves, which we'll get to in this episode. 34 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,559 Speaker 1: And I thought, well, that's interesting that a new spin 35 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: on something that I'd largely just dismissed as being essentially 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,279 Speaker 1: an act of both of human defilement but also abnormal 37 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: animal behavior. And I thought, well, this sounds like kind 38 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: of a grim top kip topic, but certainly thanksgiving us 39 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: the time to do it. Um. I think we've talked 40 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: about what like poisonous foods and stuff like that. Yeah, 41 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:24,839 Speaker 1: it kind of fits in with what we've done and 42 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: were those aren't we Yeah, yeah, it's just running at 43 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: least two and three Saturday. Yeah, but but anyway, anyway, 44 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: and looking into the topic, then I realized, oh, this 45 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: is a fascinating topic. And in the grand tradition of 46 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: our episodes on cannibalism, h b clity, and necrophilia, I 47 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: think that there's a there's an awesome challenge in tackling 48 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: something like this, something that is generally considered very abnormal 49 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: behavior for humans, and looking at it from just the 50 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: the boiled down, no nonsense, uh animal side of things, 51 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: like what is it? How does it make sense within 52 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: the realm of animal biology and behavior, and then how 53 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: might what might we apply that to the human scenario 54 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: even Yeah, the sort of like brute chemical energy realities 55 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: and and uh microbiological ecology of the world. In in 56 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: that kind of context, poop eating begins to come into 57 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: focus as a beautiful thing. Yeah, you know, as I 58 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: discussed in our our Halloween two thousand and eighteen episode 59 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: Horror Anthology, Volume one, UM, there's an episode of Night 60 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: Gallery in which a character is tricked into believing himself 61 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: cursed to an irreversible transformation into a human earthwork, and 62 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: it's Leslie Nielsen with an iPad like shooting at walls. Yeah, 63 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: the a man with no fear who has eventually overcome 64 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: with fear of becoming a worm. And I said that 65 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: one of the reasons we find this concept so horrifying 66 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: is that it reduces us to our alimentary track. We 67 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: fear the worm at the heart of our being, and 68 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: I think that we see that reflected in this episode 69 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: as well, in thing that kind of reduces us to 70 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: just our digestive system tends to have an inn aid 71 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: horror to us because we're definitely going to be touching 72 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: on the microbiome and all of this the importance of 73 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: gut bacteria, which continuing research tells us just is far 74 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: more important than than we ever imagined in the past. 75 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: I mean, the worm dictates much of our health and 76 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: even our mind. Yeah. We might get into this more 77 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: as the episode goes on, but it is so fascinating 78 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: that we have, uh, such a such a deep disgust 79 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: and revulsion for the products of the human digestive system. Yeah, 80 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: And it is just it's I mean, a certain amount 81 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: of it is is learned for sure. But I think 82 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: part of it too is that we're just we're not 83 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: a coprophegic species, so we do not engage in this 84 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: uh routinely or is a part of of normal behavior. 85 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: I mean really, in the grand scheme of things, we're 86 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: weird for not doing it. While we tend to look 87 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: at it the other way. We we if we see 88 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: an animal consuming its own poop or the poop of 89 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: another creature, we think all of that is grotesque, how 90 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: inhuman of this non human creature. Well, just think about 91 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: the sensory difference, Like the world must just look and 92 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: smell very different. If poop is delicious to you, or 93 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: or even without even getting into idea of it's delicious 94 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: or not, but if it is, under any circumstances nutritional. Yeah, 95 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: so it really turns things on its head. But let's 96 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: talk about some of the reasons, like the basic reasons 97 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: that excrement consumption might be desirable for an animal before 98 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: we get into species specific examples. Sure, well, one is 99 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: obviously going to be that feces contain nutrients. I mean, 100 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: by the time they come out of you, you have 101 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: not gotten all the possible nutrition from it. That's right. 102 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: Given digestive system does the best it can to break 103 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: down the nutrients it needs from a meal, and then 104 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: it passes on the rest. But sometimes it can't digest 105 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: everything of value in there, and this may require the 106 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: creature itself or another scavenger to give all or part 107 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: of the excrement a second pass, maybe even a third pass, 108 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: who knows. And also you have to consider the different 109 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: species require different kinds of nutrients. So what might not 110 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: be all that useful to you, or you might possess 111 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: an excess in order to excrete in waste might be 112 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: something that is very useful to a different organism. Yeah, 113 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: and two other points here too that certainly we'll get 114 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: into examples of are that that first of all, you 115 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: definitely think of you can think of that poop sometimes 116 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: as a as a first draft. You know, not everything 117 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: is finished, not everything has been been harvested. And then 118 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: also think about what the human digestive system does. It 119 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: takes the energy in the form of plant and or flesh, 120 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: and it transforms that into a form that can be 121 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: absorbed and digested, and it doesn't all take place like 122 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: in your throat. You know, it's it's taking place at 123 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: at at various points throughout a given creatures digestive system. 124 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: Now that the next big reason, of course, relates to 125 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: the microbiome. Yes, and this is huge. It's just sort 126 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: of coming into focus, I think in in the past 127 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: few decades, how enormously important the microbiome is. How your 128 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: gut flora is. It determines a lot about how your 129 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: body works and who you are, right and the gut 130 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: floor is reflected not only in what's going on inside 131 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: of you, but also in what is coming out of you. 132 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: So you know, we we don't like to think of 133 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: ourselves as a worm, obviously, and we don't like to 134 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: think of ourselves as an organism at all. But if 135 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: we do, we tend to think of ourselves as a 136 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: single organism, splendid, perfect ape. I am an animal, I 137 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: am one thing. Yeah, I'm the animal even But of 138 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: course there's more to us than all of that. We're 139 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: a multi cellular construction of maddening complexity, and we're literally 140 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: host to an ecological community of commencial, synthiotic, and pathogenic 141 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: micro organisms. We're learning more and more about the role 142 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: that our microbiome plays every day. Certainly but it certainly 143 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: plays an important role in digestion, and one microbiome can 144 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: make certain diets more advantageous, and when out of balance, 145 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: can lead to illness. So, for an extreme example, and 146 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: one that I think ties in nicely with today's episode, 147 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: just can consider uh, fecal microbiotic transplants f m t s. 148 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: This was all over the news and you know, comedians 149 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: had a big time with it. Sounds crazy, Yeah, Like 150 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: I feel like it certainly sounded crazy years ago, but 151 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: less so today. I feel like at this point, everybody's 152 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, yeah, that that that makes sense. 153 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: They're gonna be situations where the microbiome needs to be restored, 154 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: and to do so, a fecal transplant is sometimes the answer. 155 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: But what's crazy is this, to a very large extent, 156 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: is an example of the modern Is it basically the 157 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: modern medical version of exactly what some animals are doing 158 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: when they consume feces. We just have more elegant uh 159 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, modern delivery system in place. If 160 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: you want a more palatable analogy, just think about all 161 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: of the commercials for probiotic yogurt and stuff. Yeah, exactly, 162 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: this is the probiotic yogurt. Of the animal world. They 163 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: can't go and uh and and and buy something at 164 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: their local grocery store. Uh. They have a more old 165 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: fashioned and effective means of taking care of the scenario. Now, 166 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: these cases we've been talking about, our cases where it's 167 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: clearly part of an animal's natural life cycle to consume 168 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: feces to get something that it needs, whether that is 169 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: living microbes or some kind of nutrients. But there are 170 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: also probably cases where coprophagia is a sign that something 171 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: is wrong, right, I mean, animals and captivity may engage 172 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: in coprophagia. Puppy male dogs, for instance, can learn to 173 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: confuse dog food with feces due to the horrid conditions 174 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: in which they are sometimes raised. Adult elephants may engage 175 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: in it due to captivity issues, and certainly, as we 176 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: may touch on at the very end of the episode, 177 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: humans may engage in such behavior due to dementia. But again, 178 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: human coprophagia is is very rare with the animals. I 179 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: feel like, once once we take into account the cases 180 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: where it makes sense and is a part of their 181 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: natural behavior, even the unnatural cases make a little bit 182 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: more sense, you know, because with the human if a 183 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: human consumes of feces. It is a human doing something 184 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: that does not make sense within uh at any other 185 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: point in humans life, whereas a dog a puppy, say, 186 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: eating feces is is doing something perhaps out of place 187 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: or out of in a frequency that doesn't sit well 188 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: with their natural behavior, but is not unheard of in 189 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: their natural behavior. Well, maybe we should talk about the 190 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: idea of coprophasia as a natural behavior of dogs, because 191 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: I so I can't speak directly to coprophasia, but I 192 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: go out walking my dog and it is clear to me, 193 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: based on the directions that the dog pulls, that feces 194 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: are incredibly interesting to him. He's very interested in getting 195 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: up close to them. I've never let him linger there 196 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: with enough time to see what he would do if 197 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: the smelling were allowed to evolve into munching. I don't 198 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: know if that would happen, but I've often suspected now 199 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: there could be other stuff going on there. For one thing, 200 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: I think feces probably a lot of these feces are 201 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,359 Speaker 1: dog feces, and they probably contain a lot of interesting 202 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: sensory information smell wise, like he can learn about the 203 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: other dogs in the area by smelling the poop, I 204 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: would assume, I mean probably just food interest. Yeah. I 205 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: mean it's worth remembering that dogs live in an entirely 206 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: different sense world in regard to smell. Yeah. But but 207 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: I also do wonder like, Okay, if I wasn't there 208 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: to pull him away, to gently drag him back on 209 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: the leash, would he eat these feces? Well? I certainly 210 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: no other dog owners who have to deal with, say 211 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: the dog trying to get into get at the cat litter, Yes, 212 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: to eat cat feces, yes, for example, And we're we're 213 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: about to touch on that as well. Uh. I feel 214 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: like this is probably the example of coprophasia that that 215 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: our listeners are most well acquainted with um because dogs 216 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: are popular pets and they do engage in this kind 217 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: of behavior from time to time. And I mentioned it 218 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: can be quite disruptive of the sort of anthropomorphizing we 219 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: often do with our pets. Right, we teach them like 220 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: we treat them like little fur babies, and if the names, yeah, 221 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,599 Speaker 1: and if and even the food we pick out the 222 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: artificial uh, I mean the the prepackaged of food that 223 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: we purchase for our animals. I mean those are foods 224 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: that are marketed to appeal to both dogs but also 225 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: to humans, where the humans are like, yeah, that's the 226 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: kind of thing that I would eat if I were 227 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: a dog. And so the idea then of of of 228 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: consuming cat feces is generally kind of repugnant, and we 229 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: have to I'm I'm I'm guessing there probably comes a 230 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: point in any kind of like dog ownership. I mean, 231 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: I feel like there's certainly that point in cat ownership 232 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: to where you you really have to to remind yourself, oh, yeah, 233 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: this is an animal, and it's and it's living in 234 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: a strange environment by hanging out in my house all 235 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: or most of the time. But so when coprophigia occurs 236 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: in dogs, I guess there are a couple of questions 237 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: we could ask. First is how common is it? And 238 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: second is why are they doing that? So, first of all, 239 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: it is a minority of dogs that eat poop, but 240 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: not a tiny minority. Aeen study in the journal Veterinary 241 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: Medicine and Science by Heart at All used a large 242 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: survey of dog owners to look at specifically that the 243 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: question was about dogs eating dog feces. This study is 244 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: not about dogs just eating poop in general. Maybe other animals, 245 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: and it found the following. About seventy seven percent of 246 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: dog owners had never seen their dog eating poop, about 247 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: twenty three percent had seen their dog eating poop at 248 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: least once, and about sixteen percent had seen their dog 249 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: eating poops six or more times, so about a quarter 250 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: try it at least once within view of a human. 251 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: Roughly one in six dogs seem to eat poop a lot, 252 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: and the lead author on that study was a veterinarian 253 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: named Benjamin Hart, who directs the Center for Animal Behavior 254 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: You See, Davis. One thing you might notice if you 255 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: google like why is my dog eating poop? Is you'll 256 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: get websites of self proclaimed dog experts of all kinds offering, uh, 257 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: you know, many different answers, and speaking to Karen Bruillard 258 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: in an article for The Washington Post, Heart said that 259 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: the reason you get all these different answers is that 260 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: nobody knows for sure why dogs eat poop, and they're 261 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: basically all just guessing. Fortunately, Heart says that this behavior 262 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: is gross as it might seem, is not usually dangerous 263 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: to the dog's health. But does Heart have an answer 264 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: about why dogs do it in the first place. Well, 265 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: not a definitive one, but the authors of the twenty 266 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: eight team paper do have a hypothesis and it goes 267 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: something like this, So modern dogs are descended from some 268 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: ancestral variety of wolf, and wolves don't like poop within 269 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: their own den. They they like to go out somewhere 270 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: away from the den to do their stuff. And this 271 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: is probably an evolved defensive behavior because the feces of 272 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: wild wolves often contain the eggs of intestinal parasites like 273 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: hookworms or pinworms or cosidia, and there there could be 274 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: genes probably selecting for behaviors that would help prevent your 275 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters and other close relatives in the pack 276 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: from catching your intestinal parasites. However, maybe sometimes you get 277 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: a sick wolf, a sick wolf that's in the pack 278 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: and is not able to leave the den in order 279 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: to poop. In that case, it would actually make sense 280 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: to eat poop within the den as quickly as possible, 281 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: since it usually takes a couple of days for parasite 282 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: eggs in poop to hatch and become dangerous. So rather 283 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: than let the poop in the den just sit there 284 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: for a couple of days and become a potential bio hazard. 285 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: There could be a selection pressure favoring an impulse in 286 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: wolves and their dog descendants to immediately eat fresh poop 287 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: within the den before it goes over the edge and 288 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: becomes a risk. And this hypothesis is actually consistent with 289 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: another thing that researchers have found about dog coprophagia, which 290 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: was that in dogs who eat who do eat poop, 291 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: more than eight percent prefer poop that is fresh, no 292 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: more than two days old, you know. On the other hand, 293 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: James Serpel, a professor of veterinary medicine at U PEN, 294 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: was also quoted in that post piece, and Sir Pell 295 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: says he finds that the din cleaning hypothesis for coprophagia, 296 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: that that could be plausible. That might be the case, 297 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: But Sirple also points out that poop eating dogs tended 298 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: more often to be rated by their owners as generally 299 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: greedy eaters. And that's a quote greedy eaters. So we 300 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: can't rule out the possibility that the cause is simply 301 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: dogs with a strong scavenging instinct and some large and 302 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: indiscriminate appetites looking for a bit of extra nutrition. Well, 303 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: let's take a quick rake and then when we come back, 304 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: we will explore coprophagia among elephants. Thank you, thank you. 305 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: All right, we're back, So Robert, it's time to talk 306 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: about elephant coprophagia. So obviously, there's nothing cuter than an 307 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: elephant calf than a baby elephant. You know. It's just like, 308 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: if someone shows me a YouTube video of a baby 309 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: elephant doing pretty much anything, I'm gonna watch it. I 310 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: don't know, what about a screeching adult possum, Well, that's 311 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: fun too. I also really like it when skunks stand 312 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: on their their fore legs and wave their their hinders 313 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: in the air. I'm pretty much game for any animal video. 314 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: But there's something about an elephant calf, you know, it's 315 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: just so adorable. I think it has something to do 316 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: with the the large head with the kind of wispy hair, 317 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: do you know what I'm talking about? The triggers. I 318 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: think some of the baby schema instinct like that. The 319 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: part of the idea of the baby scheme as that 320 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: we are we are triggered with, uh you know, like 321 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: caregiving instincts when we see a creature with a large 322 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: forehead and apparently large brain case because it looks kind 323 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: of like the proportions of a human baby and baby elephants. 324 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: They strike me as being kind of like that, right, 325 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 1: And then they start eating a little poop, and we're 326 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: not sure where we're how we're supposed to feel about 327 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: the whole situation. And this is in the wild, mind you, 328 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: this is observed in the wild. This is not just 329 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: a zoo thing or anything. Um, So it leads us 330 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: to ask, you know, what purpose could this serf? Well, 331 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: the poop contains vital bacteria for breaking down plant cellulus, 332 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: and by consuming some of its mom's dung, an elephant 333 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: calf essentially gets that microbiome boost towards the consumption of food. 334 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: So it's it's vital in them making that leap from 335 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: just just sustaining themselves on their mother's milk to actually 336 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: eating as an adult or semi adult elephant. And then 337 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: they're also going to get some nourishment out of the 338 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: deal as well as roughly two thirds of an elephant's 339 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: diet uh ends up coming out the other end undigested. 340 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 1: I guess this would be a diet heavy and rough 341 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: plant matter. Oh, yeah, you know it. So they're they're 342 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: eating elephants obviously eat a ton they're eating a lot 343 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: of plant matter, but even their impressive anatomy is only 344 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: able to absorb so much of it. By the way, 345 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: speaking of elephant poop, uh, it's pretty incredible as well 346 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: due to its a seed distribution. Powers. This was kind 347 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: of a tangent I happened upon in my research. You know, 348 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: we often forget this about this when we're considering the 349 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: ecological impact of elephants and h and also you know 350 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: some of the ramvoications of their dwindling numbers. But just 351 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: consider the Asian elephant, which has lost its habitat and 352 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: ninety percent of its population over the last century. Um. 353 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: And these stats come from on the Importance of Elephant 354 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: Poop by Sarah Zelinsky, published in Science News. She points 355 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: to a two thousand fifteen ecology publication by a Secca 356 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,479 Speaker 1: at all uh that points to three plant species in 357 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: particular that have evolved to benefit from elephant seed distribution, 358 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: including the so called elephant apple apple, which I was 359 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: not familiar with. Um. Most animals can't actually eat the 360 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: elephant apple because it's just so tough, and as with 361 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: wild guava, which is another example of this, it's far 362 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: more likely to germinate if it passes through an elephant 363 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: rather than say a cow or a buffalo. So key. 364 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: Key here, of course is the fact that the seed 365 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: itself has to be undigested in order to actually germinate 366 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: and grow new plants. Yeah, and there of course a 367 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: number of plants that depend on distribution methods like this, 368 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: like the an animal eats the fruit and then poops 369 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: the seeds out somewhere, often helping transport the seeds somewhere 370 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: along the way. Yeah, I feel like this is something 371 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: this kind of comes back to how humans perceive poop. 372 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 1: We we tend to think again with that that sort 373 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: of worm analogy. On one end of the worm is food, 374 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: delicious food, and on the other end is just poop, 375 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: just utter utter law. It's heaven and hell. You know 376 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: it's good and evil. But really, you're and most animals 377 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: would be able to attest to this, have the gift 378 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: of reason and language that the poop still has a 379 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: lot of good in it. It's not just this, uh, 380 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: this transformation from like you know, a hundred zero, it's 381 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: not heaven in hell. It's more like dinner and leftovers. 382 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: And you might find, in fact that the leftovers have 383 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: already been conveniently cut up into pieces for you exactly. 384 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: I should also point out that this has been a 385 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: practice among elephants and elephant can for quite some time. Uh. 386 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: There was a forty two thousand year old baby female 387 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: mammoth double lube and she was found to have adult 388 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: mammoth poop in her digestive system. This seems to be 389 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: just a part of how you first of all, wean 390 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: and then also prepare the the the microbiota of the 391 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: young elephant calf. Now speaking of similar large mammals with 392 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: also very cute babies, I was reading just a little 393 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: bit about the importance in the the freshwater food chain 394 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: of some rivers of hippo poop. You know, hippo has 395 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: to do a similar thing. They come up out of 396 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: the water to eat a whole bunch of you know, 397 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: rough plant matter, and then they retreat back into the 398 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: water to just poop it all out, poop it all 399 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: out straight into the water. Uh. And this this ends 400 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: up forming an important nutrition source for fish and other 401 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 1: organisms downstream. But of course, too much hippo poop can 402 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: lead to problems like eutrophication, where there's too many nutrients 403 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: in the water. I imagined. This is one of one 404 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: of the many challenges of keeping hippos in an artificial 405 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: environment is having to clean up water all the time. Oh, 406 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: I was actually reading something about this. Uh, I wish 407 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: I could remember the details. But in regards to uh, 408 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: Pablo Escobar's hippos, yes, his his hippos which are sweat 409 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: supposedly still running amok something like that. Yeah. Um, I 410 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: also remember I've done some hippo poop research in the past. Um, 411 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: actually a fair amount of, I guess just hippo aanous research, 412 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: because you've got like a special variety of leech that 413 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: is only attracted to the hippoanus. They also do that 414 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: great thing with their tails, the spinning. Yeah, it's the 415 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: whirling tail poopy go around. Yeah, it's like a sprinkler 416 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: system for fresh hippo feces. Well, now that we have 417 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: that image in your head, let's turn to what I 418 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: think might be the most impressive variety of coprophagic organisms. 419 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: This would be the order Lego Morpha, or the Lego morphs. 420 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: Bunny rabbits, yeah, rabbits, hairs pike has presumably the easter 421 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: bunny as well. I don't know, I think I warned 422 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: people when we mentioned this episode was coming up that 423 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: they would be treated to an utter ruination of the 424 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: cuteness of bunnies. But maybe instead, if you're open minded enough, 425 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: this will even expand your bunny cuteness appreciation and higher 426 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: dimensions of consciousness. I think I'm more in that that 427 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: that area. Like when I first started looking into it, 428 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, maybe this is a little gross, 429 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: but no, like, no, this is amazing. Like I'm not 430 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: sure I had any reason to find wonderment in bunnies 431 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: and rabbits before, you know, accepted if it's some sort 432 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: of cool predation method by something that eats them. But no, this, 433 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: this is amazing what we're going to talk about here, 434 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: and it forces you to rethink not only rabbits, but 435 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: I think digestion itself. Okay, so what does normal rabbit 436 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: feeding look like? What are they eating? What do they do? Oh? Well, 437 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: you know they're eating carrots the cartoons, if they've taught 438 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: me correctly, you know they're they're eating plants. They're in 439 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: a diet with a lot of a lot of greens 440 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: and uh and you know the gardens of English gardeners 441 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: when they can get in there though. Funny side fact, 442 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: I was actually just reading a paper that mentioned some 443 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: opportunistic carnivory of rabbits, not of rabbits by rabbits. Oh, 444 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: that would make sense given everything we've learned about squirrels. Yeah, 445 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: I think this was an isolated case. It's not like 446 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: this is super common, but it had at least been observed. Well, 447 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: they've also been observed plenty of times engaging in coprophagia, 448 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: and it's actually a clever way by which they overcome 449 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: some of the shortcomings of their digestive systems. So their 450 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: hind gut fermenters, and what does that mean. What means 451 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: that the bacterial fermentation that breaks down much of the 452 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: plant matter they consume, it takes place in the hind gut. 453 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: In rabbits, this is in the secum and and so yeah, 454 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: you're having all of this, like vital breakdown of the 455 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: material taking place rather late in the process. And yet 456 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: most of the nutrient absorption takes place in the stomach 457 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: and the small intestines, which is of course earlier in 458 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: the process. So you have this weird situation where there's 459 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: so much of the nutrients that they need are not 460 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: really coming online until it's basically poop ready for depositings. 461 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like one of those movies where 462 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: the plot doesn't make sense until everything comes together right 463 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: at the end. Kind of you kind of need to 464 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: see it again after you've seen it to put everything 465 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: together exactly. It's also worth noting that we're dealing with 466 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: creatures that are small, gutted and uh and have very 467 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: high metabolisms, which also plays into the scenario. So what's 468 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: the what's the rabbit to do? Why you simply run 469 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: it all through again you watch the movie again. Uh 470 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: and but but it's more elegant than that. It's it's 471 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: more amazing than simply okay, well they're they're poops, still 472 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: have a lot of nutrients, so they eat their poop again. 473 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: They have two types of poop WHOA, so they have 474 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: poop toggling. Essentially, they produce what is called a sika 475 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: trope or night feces or night poops, if you will. 476 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: While normal daytime feces is brown and hard, the night 477 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: poops are dark, soft and coated in mucus, and these 478 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: they eat up right away. Generally, this has taking place, 479 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: I understand, like basically the early more the early hours 480 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: of the morning, uh hand, or you know, the the 481 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: very latest portion of the night. However you want to 482 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: slice it, thus night poops, and they eats up up 483 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: so swiftly that I'm to understand that many pet owners 484 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: don't even know what's happening. Uh, And in doing this 485 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: they absorb those vital nutrients on the second pass. In fact, 486 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: if a rabbit doesn't eat its night nightpoops, that means 487 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with it. So according to help Doc, 488 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: my rabbit is not engaging in coprophagia exactly. I mean, 489 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: that's basically the reversal we see, the reversal of human 490 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: expectations for coprophasia. According to the Cornell veterinarian paper Coprophasia 491 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: and Animals, a review by Slave and Brand, the night 492 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: poops are quote swallowed like pills, and in the case 493 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: of the pika for instance, uh, the night poops are 494 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: essentially a mix of partially digested moss and gut bacteria. 495 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: And it's actually six times more nutritious than the moss itself. 496 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: So it's almost like cooking increases the nutritional profile of food. Well, 497 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: we've talked about it fro from the human perspective, cooking 498 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: is the externalization of digestion. It's technological digestion. Yeah, so yeah, 499 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: this is this is cooking via the pike a gut. 500 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: They also point out that young rabbits begin eating their 501 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: mother's night poops before moving onto the consumption of their own. 502 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: So again we see this kind of weaning process similar 503 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: to what we saw in elephants. And uh. This also 504 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: supply supplies nitrogen, protein, sulfur, and vitamins, and up to 505 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: on consumption of night poop may be necessary for these 506 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: creatures to intake adequate levels um um of these substances. Okay, 507 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: so now that we have expanded your mind about cute bunnies, 508 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: I assume it will be less of a leap for 509 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: people to find out that rats consume feces. Right. Oh yeah, 510 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: I feel like this should be a no brainer, like 511 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: it really, I think people are going to be surprised 512 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: that they don't eat as much poop as as rabbits do. 513 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: But a single rat consumes a varying amount of its 514 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: own dung. We're talking between five and fifty percent of 515 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: its own fecal output. And as with rabbits, we see 516 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: some key nutrients in here made absorbable via that first 517 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: round of digestion, and it's a way for them to 518 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: hit target absorption levels prevent them from eating their own poop. 519 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: And young rats experience a depression and growth rate of 520 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: about fifteen and it's especially useful as a way for 521 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: them to make up for shortfalls in their natural dietary nutrients. 522 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: So whereas human adults tell human children like don't drink coffee, 523 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: that will stunt your growth, your adult rats would tell 524 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: their their rat pups, don't not eat your poop, that 525 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: will stunt your growth. Exactly. It's also been observed to 526 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: boost the rats and microbiotic performance. And in fact, thiamine 527 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: is produced in the rats intestinal tract and is not absorbed. 528 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: They have to eat it then to pick it up. 529 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: So if rats are are permitted from eating their own feces, 530 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: such as with a laboratory via laboratory tail cup, you'll 531 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: have to add vitamin K to their diets to make 532 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: up for it. And similarly, they require B complex if 533 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: not allowed to ingest their own feces. And with rats, 534 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: just as we saw with with with rabbits, it begins 535 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: with the young eating the mother's feces with the pheromonal 536 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: encouragement of the practice. Maternal rat feces contains high levels 537 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: of the oxycolic acid that's lacking and pre weened weaning rats, 538 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: and this is a steroid that promotes immune development in 539 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: the intestinal tract. So part of what you're saying is 540 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: that when you find rat poop in the back of 541 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: a kitchen cabinet or something, there actually probably was originally 542 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: more rat poop there and they just they took some 543 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: of it along with them. I'm not sure on that, 544 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure when they're I don't think 545 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: it was really reflected in this main uh Suave and 546 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: Brand paper, like when they're eating the poop, if this 547 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: is only occurring like mostly close to home, or if 548 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: it's going to occur in your cabinet potentially. Now, another 549 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: animal that is famous for wallowing in its own filth, 550 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: of course, is yield poor sign that's right, uh, the pig. 551 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: And this is another animal where people would be like, yeah, 552 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: that that that makes sense. A pick would probably eat 553 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: its own poop. Um adult pig poop is rich in iron, 554 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: and piglets will, according to Suave and Brand, consume about 555 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: twenty grams of maternal feces per day, and this plays 556 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: a role in preventing iron deficiency anemia in the piglets. 557 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: Now beyond the realm of pigs, it's also been seen 558 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: in non human primates, with B twelve and fatty acids 559 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: coming into play for some monkeys, but it does not 560 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,959 Speaker 1: serve as a major source of nutrients in non human primates. 561 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: Will come back to non human primates in a bit. 562 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: In horses, however, between the second and fifth week after birth, 563 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: a full will apparently eat part of the mother's feces, 564 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: and it also occurs in mature horses that have low 565 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: protein diets. I'd like to just read a quote from 566 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: that Suave and Brand paper. Actually they say quote. Coprophagia 567 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: is essential for some species of animals, providing nutrients which 568 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: contribute to growth, development, and maturation of the animals. The 569 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: practice must be considered in the interpretation of comparative investigations 570 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: done with coprophagous and non cooperate agus animals. The impact 571 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: of coprophasia in laboratory studies using rodents and rabbits could 572 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: seriously influence test results, especially in the fields of nutrition, microbiology, pharmacology, 573 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: and toxicology. So what they're saying is science needs to 574 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: take way more poop eating into account. Basically, Yeah, and 575 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: this is something I still reflected in some other papers 576 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: I looked at where they said, there's just there hasn't 577 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: been enough research on some species and they're they're poop eating. 578 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly rabbits have received a lot of attention, 579 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: but but this is a this is an interesting point 580 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: about especially UH lab mice and rats that we're studying 581 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: to understand so many things about about human physiology. Now 582 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: while we're on the subject of animals that are probably 583 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: less surprising to find out that they that they engage 584 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: in some poop eating. Obviously, insects and invertebrates of various 585 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: kinds are going to figure big into this kind of picture. 586 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: In fact, I remember I had a biology teacher ones 587 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: who was talking about his expeditions to the jungles of 588 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: South America, and he talked about how you know, in 589 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: the morning, if you if you were out in the rainforest, 590 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: and you would you would venture out away from the 591 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: camp to release a large bowel movement. After the coffee hour, UH, 592 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: you could basically sit there and watch it become a 593 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: chemical beacon for invertebrate forest life, where we're slowly thinking 594 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: all these insects and different kinds of species would just 595 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: descend on it from all around. And uh, that image 596 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: is stuck with me ever since I would kind of 597 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: like to see that. Yeah, it's far It's a far 598 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: different scenario in our urban environment, where if you go 599 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: out and poop on the sidewalk in the morning, you 600 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: may attract attention. But but but may I don't know. 601 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: I'm joking, But I mean it's not like we don't 602 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: have a lot of insect life in the city. Yeah, 603 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: I guess we do. Yeah, I mean you will certainly 604 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: see flies on poop. I mean it's a cliche for 605 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: a reason. Now. One of the most impressie consumers of 606 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: of poop in the insect world is, of course, the 607 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: dung beetle. These are amazing animals they are and um, 608 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: and yeah, I think we tend to be cool with 609 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: the dung beetle. I mean, the dung beetle is kind 610 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: of funny because of what it's doing, especially if you're 611 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: watching a variety of dung beetle that rolls the poop away. 612 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: How come dung beetles don't seem as gross to us 613 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: as the flies and maggots that land on poop. I 614 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: think part of it is that they're generally we're generally 615 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: when we're watching videos of it, we're watching dung beetles 616 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: that are rolling away like animal poop, and yeah, animal poop, 617 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: and specifically herbivore poop, which tends to be far nicer poop. Like, really, 618 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: if you have to, if I had to deal with 619 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of poop, like just to scoop it, you know, 620 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,919 Speaker 1: give me, give me horsepoop the day of the week, 621 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: it looks more like mud with some hay in it, right, 622 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: And basically it is. I mean, just think back to 623 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: the elephant poop example and all the all the stuff 624 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: that is still in there unabsorbed. But we have a 625 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: lot of different types of dung beetles. I've seen the number. 626 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: I've seen it as low as five thousand, but I've 627 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: also seen it sited is like eight thousand different species 628 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: of dung beetles, and they can be found on every 629 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: continent except Antarctica. They thrive in numerous environments as well, 630 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: not just grasslands. So I feel like sometimes we have 631 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: a false idea of dung beetles just based on seeing 632 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: like one or two segments in a nature documentary, and 633 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: they given their name implies they subsist almost exclusively on 634 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: the extrement of other organisms, although they can sometimes feast 635 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: on carrion leaf, litter, mushrooms, and decaying fruit. Some of 636 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: the species famously roll balls of dung away from the pile. 637 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: Everybody's seen this, like the the image of them pushing 638 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: it like a boulder, like somebody in tartar Us. You know, 639 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because that's one of the things they make. 640 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 1: They make a bee line, they make a straight line, 641 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: and they use some incredible strength and also some some 642 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,959 Speaker 1: fairly incredible navigation U techniques to to really pull this off, 643 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: because they have to be fast. A dung, as we've discussed, 644 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: loses its nutritional punch rather quickly. Uh So it has 645 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: to the ones that actually roll it away. They have 646 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: to roll it away in a straight line, get it 647 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: somewhere where they can deal with it, and they might 648 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: have to deal with competing dung beetles on the way. 649 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: Now you might not know the answer to this, but 650 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: why is it that dung loses its nutritional value over time? 651 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: Is it? Uh? Is it the microbes in it that 652 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: are consuming a lot of the nutrients. I think that 653 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: is the case. Yeah, I mean, and it's almost like 654 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: the dung is alive and dying, you know, and it 655 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: has to be uh, it has to be dealt with 656 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: whether quickly. Um. Now, I mentioned that you know varieties 657 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: that roll, they're dung. While rollers are certainly the most famous, 658 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: there are also tunnelers, so they tunneled down into the poop. 659 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: And then there are dwellers that dwell atop the poop. Um. 660 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: So these are the things that the mountain. Yeah, basically 661 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: there's king of the mountain, there's king under the mountain, 662 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 1: and then there's he who rolls poop away from the mountain. Uh. 663 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: And those are the three categories the at of poop. Now, 664 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: according to Believe it's Dr John M. Capinera. A one 665 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: point five kilogram or three point three pound load of 666 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: elephant dung was observed to attract sixteen thousand dung beetles 667 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: who eight buried and rolled it away in less than 668 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: two hours. Less than two hours. That's that's incredible, and 669 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: that's that's difficult to imagine. But you know, if you 670 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: have an entire swarm of dung beetles. I almost don't 671 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: believe that two hours all by insects. Well, well, maybe 672 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: we'll check that in qua and make sure that holds true. No, 673 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure I believe it. I believe it all right. Well, 674 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: according to the San Diego Zoo, the average domestic cow 675 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: drops dung like ten to twelve times per day, and 676 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: each pat of poop can produce up to three thousand 677 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: flies within two weeks. In some parts of Texas, dune 678 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: beetles bury about eighty percent of cattle dunge. So just 679 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: imagine what life would be like without dung beetles around 680 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: to to con whom the poop Robert, That sounds like 681 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: a messy planet it would be. But thank thank God 682 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: for the dung beetles. All right, let's take a quick 683 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: break and when we come back, we will discuss picture 684 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: plants than alright, we're back this time with a non 685 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: animal feces consumer. Well, it's much less surprising, I guess, 686 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: than animals eating poop to hear of plants benefiting from poop, 687 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: because obviously, you know, you could think about fertilizer and 688 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: stuff like that. They're there are nutrients in poop that 689 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: can sink into the soil and nourish the roots of 690 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: a tree or something like that. But I want to 691 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: talk about a more direct kind of fecal gobbling by plants, 692 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: and that would be, of course, the case of picture plants. 693 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: Now we've discussed picture plants on the show before. These 694 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: are generally carnivorous plants with these picture cup shaped leaves 695 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: that form a pit trap. And the general predation strategy 696 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: of these carnivorous plants goes like this. So you have 697 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: a delicious smelling chemical lure, some kind of actor or 698 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: something to attract insects to your picture, and then the 699 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 1: insects land and try to feed, or at least try 700 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: to investigate, but the edges of the picture slippery, and 701 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,919 Speaker 1: then the insect falls into a pool of liquid down 702 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: inside the cupped leaf. Now, once in the liquid, the 703 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: insect dies, and then the body is digested by enzymes 704 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: down in the pit, and the plant of course feeds. Now. 705 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: This is often especially important because the picture plant needs 706 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: those arthur pod bodies is a source of nitrogen, which 707 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: is a crucial nutrient for them, and which is often 708 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: scarce in the kinds of soil where the picture plants 709 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: tend to grow, which can be like swampy soil or 710 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: like heath soil, just not very nitrogen rich. But a 711 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 1: curious thing has happened to some picture plants. Some seem 712 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: to have evolved a taste for poop. And now I 713 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: was reading a great piece in National Geographic by Ed Young, 714 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: one of our favorite science writers, about the picture plant 715 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: Nepenthes hymnslayan a. And so there were some researchers that 716 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: Ed was talking about. One was Omar Graph from the 717 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: University of Brunei, Jerusalem, and he noticed something odd about 718 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 1: this species of plant to pen these Hymns layana. It 719 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: was sort of low on fluid compared to other picture plants, 720 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: and it also didn't release obvious chemical attractants for insects, 721 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: and it tended to have about seven times fewer insects 722 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: than the pictures of other species. Now, instead of insects 723 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: in the pictures, there were often bats. There were a 724 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: type of bat known as Hardwick's wooly bat or Cravoula hardwicki, roosting, 725 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,320 Speaker 1: sometimes roosting as families inside the plants. And so Graph 726 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: work together with Caroline and Michael Schooner from the University 727 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: of Greifswald to investigate the apparent mutualism between bats and 728 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,479 Speaker 1: picture plants. Obviously there's some kind of relationship going on here. 729 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: What is it. You've got big pictures that bats can 730 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: fit inside, very little fluid, very few insects. But of 731 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: course the pictures were full of you guess it, poop 732 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 1: bat feces, also known as guano, which is incidentally a 733 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: great source of nitrogen. Now, the researchers found that the 734 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: plants were getting so much nitrogen from the guano that 735 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: they didn't need to kill nearly as many insects. So 736 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: here's the question, how did the pictures attract the bats? 737 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 1: Because bats navigate mostly by echolocation, they determined shapes in 738 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 1: their surroundings by making sounds and then listening for those 739 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: sounds to bounce back off the objects in the environment, 740 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,280 Speaker 1: forming a three D sonic map. And there are similar 741 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: shaped other species of picture plants in the forest, and 742 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: there's just a lot of stuff in the forest to 743 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: sort of like muck up your view. So how did 744 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: the himsleana plants attract the bats? The researchers mentioned before 745 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: teamed up with Ralph Simon of the University of Erlangen, Nuremberg, 746 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: who helped out by bringing along a robotic bath head 747 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: and so ed Wrights quote. The team found that the 748 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: back wall of in salayan a, the bit that connects 749 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,320 Speaker 1: its lid to its main chamber, is unusually wide, elongated, 750 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: and curved. It's like a parabolic dish. It strongly reflects 751 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: incoming ultrasound in the direction it came from and over 752 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: a large area. Other picture plants that live in the 753 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: same habitat don't have this structure. Instead, their back walls 754 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: reflect incoming calls off to the sides. So as the 755 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: wooly bats pepper the forest with high pitched squeaks, the 756 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: echoes from in Him's leana should stand out like a beacon. 757 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: So the researchers also tested this apparent function by modifying 758 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: some of the plants sort of hidden among shrubbery in 759 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: a tin full of bats to see if it would 760 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 1: change the rate at which the bats were attracted to 761 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: the plants, and it did. In a paper published in 762 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: Current Biology, UH, the authors found that if you took 763 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 1: one of these plants and you sort of amputated its 764 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: reflective surfaces, the bats couldn't find it as quickly and 765 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: ed writes quote and when given a choe as they 766 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,320 Speaker 1: mostly entered pictures with natural, unaltered reflectors. So here's a 767 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: case where the plant has evolved to instead of specializing 768 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,760 Speaker 1: in capturing, trapping, and eating insects, it specializes in providing 769 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: a good home for bats to poop in it, and 770 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: even changing its own shape over the generations to become 771 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: a better attractor of bats because it reflects the sounds 772 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 1: they make better. Now, this is not the only picture 773 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: plant that has come to specialize in receiving poop as 774 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,879 Speaker 1: a as a main part of its diet. There's another 775 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,760 Speaker 1: picture plant called a Nepenthes lowy that does something similar 776 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: by functioning as a kind of delicious toilet for tree 777 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: shrews in borneo u. The young versions of this plant 778 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: tend to trap ants and other insects like a normal 779 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: picture plant would, but the more mature plants, which grow 780 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 1: up higher in the air on vines and other plants, 781 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 1: they attract tree shrews with sweet nectar, and while the 782 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 1: shrews are perched on the plant licking the nectar, the 783 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: shrews poop inside the plant, providing crucial nitrogen to the 784 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: plant and In fact, the mature aerial plants really don't 785 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: trap many insects at all. They just want poop, that's all. 786 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,799 Speaker 1: It's just tree shrew come and poop in me. And 787 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: they've evolved to specialize in this. While most carnivorous picture 788 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: plants have these slippery rims I mentioned, right, you know, 789 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: they want a slippery side on the pictures, so the 790 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,399 Speaker 1: insects fall in, the mature uh plants of the low 791 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,919 Speaker 1: E species don't have a slippery rim. Instead, they've got 792 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: a rim that the tree shrew can stand on safely 793 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: and poop comfortably. After all, like you wouldn't design a 794 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: human toilet with like a lubricated seat, right, you know, 795 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: you don't want people slipping around. So I also found 796 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 1: another more recent study by the same authors of that 797 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: study ed Young road about and isn't at gop s, 798 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: but with some other authors in a Journal of Ecology 799 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: in two seventeen, called ecological outsourcing. A picture plant benefits 800 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: from transferring predigestion of prey to a bat mutualist uh 801 00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: So they point out here that you know, mutualism is 802 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,760 Speaker 1: a type of symbiosis between two species in which both 803 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: species gain a net benefit from the interaction. UH classic 804 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: examples would be like animals in their gut flora. The 805 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,320 Speaker 1: gut flora gets something out of it, you get something 806 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,720 Speaker 1: out of it. But also like flowering plants and pollinating insects, 807 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 1: where the insect might get nectar and the plant might 808 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: get reproductive material spread around, you both get a net positive. 809 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: And so the authors point out that lots of ecologists 810 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 1: believe that a lot of times mutualism seems to evolve 811 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: when a service that an organism originally had to perform 812 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,239 Speaker 1: for itself could be done better by another species. And 813 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,840 Speaker 1: the authors refer to this as quote ecological outsourcing. So 814 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,959 Speaker 1: an example would be a plant that used to have some, 815 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: you know, very ineffective way of spreading pollen around, but 816 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: then insects began spreading the pollen in a much more 817 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: efficient and targeted way. But of course, how would you 818 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,879 Speaker 1: test that it evolved this way. Well, the authors came 819 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 1: up with a way to test this using that relationship 820 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier between the picture plant nipenhees hims lana 821 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 1: and Hardwick's wooly bat, the care Caravoula hardwicki. And so 822 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,320 Speaker 1: the picture plant houses the bat like we said, the 823 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 1: bat poops inside the plant gets necessary nitrogen, and the 824 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: authors write about their method quote, we measured the benefits 825 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: of ecological outsourcing by comparing survival growth, photosynthesis, and nutrient 826 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 1: content of in Him's Leona plants fed with bat feces 827 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: to those fed with arthropods. To investigate the costs of 828 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:32,239 Speaker 1: such outsourcing processes, we repeated the experiment with the closest relative, 829 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,759 Speaker 1: Nepenthees rafless Cianna that is not adapted to digest bat feces. 830 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,600 Speaker 1: So the authors found that Him's Leyana plants fed on 831 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: a diet of poop had better survival growth and photosynthesis 832 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,399 Speaker 1: than plants of the same species that were given only 833 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: insects instead. Quote. On average, plants covered nine of their 834 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: nitrogen demand from feces under strong nutrient deprivation. But what 835 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: about those non poop adapted species of plant that got 836 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,600 Speaker 1: to try out a poop diet in this experiment The 837 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 1: author's right quote, Despite raf. Lysiana's higher arthropod capture rate, 838 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,360 Speaker 1: feces covered a large part of this species nutrient demand 839 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 1: as well, suggesting low costs for outsourcing. And then, finally, 840 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 1: the author's right quote, outsourcing pre capture and digestion to 841 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: the mutualism partner seems to be a beneficial strategy for 842 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 1: in Him's leana. It may explain the evolutionary trend of 843 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 1: several carnivorous plants to lose their carnivorous traits while increasing 844 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,760 Speaker 1: their attractiveness to mutualistic partners. On a much broader scale, 845 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 1: we propose that ecological outsourcing could be one of the 846 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: major drivers for the evolution and maintenance of mutualisms. So, 847 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,120 Speaker 1: in other words, you can think of the bats as 848 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,840 Speaker 1: providing a kind of predigestion service for the picture plant. 849 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: The bat eats the nitrogen rich food source, breaks it down, 850 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 1: then releases it into the plant's mouth. It makes sense, right, 851 00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: Why eat the insects directly when you can eat this 852 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: byproduct of the insects at the bad eats. Yeah, And 853 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: it also makes me think about you know, when we've 854 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: talked about the possible origins of predations in the Cambrian period, 855 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: like if organisms we don't know that this happened, but 856 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: just if it's possible that predation began when scavenging or 857 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,360 Speaker 1: organisms eating sort of like dead other animal matter just 858 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: sort of transitioned to live animals. Uh, this could be 859 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,919 Speaker 1: a sort of like backward transition of that kind, right, yeah, 860 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: I think so, And and again it also forces us 861 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: to rethink what is going on in digestion, what is 862 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 1: going on in the transformation from food to poop? Totally 863 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: all right, So I want to come back to humans again. 864 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,440 Speaker 1: So at this point, yeah, if you don't want to 865 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,000 Speaker 1: hear about human coveraphagia, um, maybe you want to check 866 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,839 Speaker 1: out for this episode. But hopefully at this point we've 867 00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,040 Speaker 1: demystified it a bit, uh, and you're ready to hear 868 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,279 Speaker 1: a little bit about humans and also some of our 869 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,680 Speaker 1: our our ape relatives. So of course, human a prophagia 870 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,360 Speaker 1: has long been the subject of various curses, insults, and 871 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,719 Speaker 1: of course art. I think we can all think to 872 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:12,800 Speaker 1: to various um works of literature or cinema that the 873 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,240 Speaker 1: drag out coprophagia is, especially as I've seen it popular 874 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,839 Speaker 1: in like nineteen seventies cinema, especially avant garde stuff where 875 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 1: they want to I guess say something like really like 876 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,600 Speaker 1: stark and disturbing about the nature of human existence. Yes, 877 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: the spirit of the Marquis assad Yeah, yeah, there's a 878 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: lot of of of of poop eating in that for sure. Um. 879 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: But really, I mean any amount of poop eating tends 880 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:37,960 Speaker 1: to stand out in the work and and and you 881 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,279 Speaker 1: run the risk of it overshadowing everything else that you're 882 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: attempting to do. A couple of cinematic high points low points, 883 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,279 Speaker 1: uh that come to mind in this area. There's, of course, uh, 884 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 1: the scene in John Waters Pink Flamingos in which the 885 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:57,400 Speaker 1: actor Divine eats dog feces. And I later heard an 886 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: interview from him talking with the Fresh Air Terry Gross 887 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: about and talked about like calling the doctor afterwards and 888 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,840 Speaker 1: claiming that a child had eaten dog feces and he 889 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: wanted to see, if, you know, if the child was 890 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,800 Speaker 1: going to get sick, and the doctor was like reassuring 891 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 1: him that it would, you know, would probably be okay. Um. 892 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: Another great scene, of course is the scene in Caddy 893 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:22,040 Speaker 1: Shack where Bill Murray's character retrieves the suspected feces which 894 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,759 Speaker 1: is actually a candy bar from the bottom of the 895 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: pool and uh and and holds it up, sniffs it 896 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: and invites into it. But anyway, the point here is 897 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: that for humans is largely something that's relegated to the 898 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,160 Speaker 1: room of madness, perversion, and horror. It's also been done 899 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: as an act of protest, and indeed it's it's considered 900 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,279 Speaker 1: an extraordinary disorder of human behavior when it occurs. We're 901 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,839 Speaker 1: not like those animals that sometimes eat poop for nutritional 902 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:51,040 Speaker 1: deficiency reasons. Right, our closest ape relatives don't benefit from 903 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 1: the act as other animals do. Chimps have been observed 904 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 1: to do it in laboratory conditions, probably due to dietary 905 00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,880 Speaker 1: deficiencies or captivity induced behavioral problem. Now, as for guerrillas, 906 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,560 Speaker 1: I was reading a bit about this in the primate 907 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: conservation paper UH Coprophasia and Intestinal Parasites Implications to human 908 00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,880 Speaker 1: habituated mountain guerrillas. This is by Grassic and Cranfield from 909 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 1: two thousand three, and they wrote that coprophasia is commonly 910 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,720 Speaker 1: observed in mountain guerrillas. Adults sometimes eat their own feces 911 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,280 Speaker 1: following defecation, or the old feces of other guerrillas, which 912 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 1: is interesting they didn't I don't think they really went 913 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:28,960 Speaker 1: into all this and do this all that much. But 914 00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,360 Speaker 1: it comes back to the whole freshness thing. I wonder, 915 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 1: why eat the old poop? But Anyway, infants sometimes eat 916 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,080 Speaker 1: feces of other guerrillas or other animals, and it's considered normal, 917 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,239 Speaker 1: and it's been argued that the gut flora explanation is 918 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,040 Speaker 1: likely valid here. It's thought that their herbivore diet likely 919 00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:52,320 Speaker 1: benefits from some level of symbian seating. However, with this 920 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,160 Speaker 1: sort of practice comes the possibility of parasites, and indeed, 921 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 1: a survey identified forty one species of indo parasites from 922 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,279 Speaker 1: cat to been wild guerillas, twenty nine of which can 923 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:07,880 Speaker 1: be transmitted by coprophagia. However, they also stressed that coprophagia 924 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 1: has been quote generally neglected in medical parasitology, except in 925 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:16,560 Speaker 1: mentally retarded people with behavioral apparitions such as coprophagia or 926 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: co prophilia, requiring institutionalization. Again, we're clearly a non coprophagias species. 927 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,279 Speaker 1: It isn't a normal part of our behavior, so it's 928 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,799 Speaker 1: not something we're evolved to do with much proficiency. I 929 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,560 Speaker 1: was also reading an International Journal of Psychological and Brain 930 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 1: Sciences article titled Coprophilia feces lust in the forms of coprophagia, 931 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 1: coprio spheres, scatolia and plastering and dementia patients are Thoughts 932 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:47,840 Speaker 1: and Experience, which is a good paper, but certainly, um, 933 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,440 Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like a fund read. It's not exactly 934 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,799 Speaker 1: a fun read, but it's it was insightful. It's it's 935 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: not the first thing you want to read during your 936 00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 1: coprophagia research. But they pointed out that in primates that 937 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,319 Speaker 1: the consumption of feast these may serve quote as a 938 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,000 Speaker 1: behavioral adaptation that provides animals access to energy and nutrients 939 00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,759 Speaker 1: and maybe an important nutritional source for older and ordentally 940 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,440 Speaker 1: impaired individuals during the dry season. Dentically impaired meaning they 941 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,759 Speaker 1: just don't have the teeth to handle certain foods. Oh 942 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,560 Speaker 1: I didn't even think about that. The idea that, uh, 943 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:21,520 Speaker 1: for some animals species could be just an easier food source, 944 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 1: and it's something to fall back on when you can't 945 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,520 Speaker 1: maybe chew up the normal kind of stuff you would 946 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,919 Speaker 1: be eating. It is predigested, like you said, uh, And 947 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,759 Speaker 1: then they suggest the following quote, Dimentia patients have a 948 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:38,160 Speaker 1: diminished mental capacity that constantly is being reduced towards a 949 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:44,600 Speaker 1: capacity analog to a newborn's possibly acquiring all primordial instincts. Furthermore, 950 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:49,200 Speaker 1: as nutritional decrease in the amount eaten, which is all egophagia. 951 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,160 Speaker 1: That the eating of only a few foods uh together 952 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,240 Speaker 1: with the loss of weight, is probably the most common 953 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,120 Speaker 1: disturbance in dementia UH, something that could lead in a 954 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,120 Speaker 1: search for supplementary food sources. So they point out that. 955 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,440 Speaker 1: They also point out the dementia can also result in 956 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,640 Speaker 1: the hyper sexuality and sexually just uh inhibited behaviors, which 957 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,160 Speaker 1: could also entail the sort of activity they're also known 958 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,799 Speaker 1: to make and throw copra spheres in the manner of 959 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:22,920 Speaker 1: other primates, which is also curious. So poop balls balls right, Um. 960 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: They reject the idea though that is linked directly to 961 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,440 Speaker 1: dietary deficiency. But I feel like this this is putting 962 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,080 Speaker 1: like a weird and interesting spin on it, like the 963 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,000 Speaker 1: idea that it is in dementia patients, which seems to 964 00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,239 Speaker 1: be the the the only area where it really occurs. 965 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:42,520 Speaker 1: That it is kind of this primordial return to some 966 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,720 Speaker 1: like very base h like primate activities. Well that somehow 967 00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,960 Speaker 1: you may be a result of like instincts that are 968 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 1: activated but normally inhibited. Yeah yeah, so but again they 969 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,399 Speaker 1: they say that this is an area that really needs 970 00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 1: needs more research. Um, they said, there's actually there's not 971 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,960 Speaker 1: a lot of hope for dimentia patients exhibiting this sort 972 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,799 Speaker 1: of behavior, and that more study is needed, but of 973 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,600 Speaker 1: course also more empathy. There's apparently a tendency in institutional 974 00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,560 Speaker 1: environments to provide less care to such individuals, and if 975 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,319 Speaker 1: there's hope to be had, they say, it's through empathy 976 00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:23,279 Speaker 1: and interventions of psychological and pharmacological nature. Yeah, I can 977 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,360 Speaker 1: certainly see how that could be the case. Like it's 978 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 1: an unfortunate case where like a very gross symptom makes 979 00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,600 Speaker 1: it actually harder for a person to get the care 980 00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,160 Speaker 1: they need, just because like the people who would be 981 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,960 Speaker 1: providing the care find it repulsive or something. Yeah. Yeah, 982 00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:41,200 Speaker 1: and then you know, because they're also gonna be they're 983 00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,399 Speaker 1: gonna be dirtier because of this activity. It just and it, 984 00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,719 Speaker 1: and then you end up invoking all these human taboos, 985 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,920 Speaker 1: which even in a clinical environment with trained professionals like 986 00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,000 Speaker 1: in in the best of conditions, that can see where 987 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,040 Speaker 1: it would definitely be Uh, you could definitely prove a challenge. 988 00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: Now to close out with something a little more fun. 989 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,680 Speaker 1: From that paper, Um, they did point out that quote 990 00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,320 Speaker 1: in ancient Greece. During the orgies dedicated to the god Dionysus, 991 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:10,000 Speaker 1: bizarre erotic fetishes were in constant use. Many depictions of 992 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,360 Speaker 1: people defecating in clay pots during an orgy proved the 993 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:21,080 Speaker 1: narcissistic erotic deviation in ancient cultures. It sounds almost judgmental, right, 994 00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,920 Speaker 1: But they included some images of this, uh in the 995 00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,320 Speaker 1: in the paper. That paper had had a lot of images, 996 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,680 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of photos. Um. But again, 997 00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:37,560 Speaker 1: I feel like human coprophagia uh. Though certain certainly um 998 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,480 Speaker 1: a tricky subject, even it makes a lot more sense 999 00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:46,280 Speaker 1: having looked at how it works within the normal behaviors 1000 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:50,839 Speaker 1: of many animals. Yeah, I agree. Now I have a question, actually, yes, 1001 00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:56,040 Speaker 1: is dung vegetarian? Well, a lot of the dung we've 1002 00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,239 Speaker 1: talked about is is herbivore dung? Yeah, that be a 1003 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,560 Speaker 1: follow up question. I guess, does it matter whether the 1004 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,440 Speaker 1: dung is the dung of a carnivore of or of 1005 00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,000 Speaker 1: a herbivore it is an animal product in a way? Well, 1006 00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:10,960 Speaker 1: I did not. I guess maybe the question would be 1007 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,160 Speaker 1: as dung vegan? Well, I feel like I don't feel 1008 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 1: like we really discussed any carnivores in this episode. I mean, 1009 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:23,080 Speaker 1: everything was at least an omnivore, if not a nerbivore. Um. Yeah, 1010 00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:27,680 Speaker 1: I didn't come across any research involving carprophagia among carnivores, 1011 00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:33,280 Speaker 1: so yeah, I'm not sure. Um, I didn't see any 1012 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,880 Speaker 1: articles about cats or big cats or pack hunters, So 1013 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. That's a that's a that's an interesting 1014 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,280 Speaker 1: question to leave out on. I'm not saying we're gonna 1015 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,680 Speaker 1: come back for Coprophagia Part two, but uh, but it 1016 00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 1: is worth worth looking at. Well, here's a question start 1017 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:55,440 Speaker 1: with on part two. Is dung paleo? I don't know. 1018 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,680 Speaker 1: In some respects, maybe it is that that maybe so 1019 00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: maybe so all right, so there we have it. We're 1020 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,120 Speaker 1: gonna go and close it out here. Obviously a lot 1021 00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,320 Speaker 1: of people are gonna have some comments on this. UM. 1022 00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:11,240 Speaker 1: Probably related to your pet rabbits, your pet dogs, maybe 1023 00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,480 Speaker 1: farm animals, pet gorilla, pet gorilla's Uh, maybe you you 1024 00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,400 Speaker 1: professionally have some sort of inside here. Maybe you've worked 1025 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,880 Speaker 1: with THEMNIA patients, you know, I've uh, we're we're up 1026 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,040 Speaker 1: for any kind of insight into this topic that you, 1027 00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,480 Speaker 1: the listener may have to share with us. In the meantime, 1028 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,040 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1029 00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,840 Speaker 1: That's we'll find all the episodes of the podcast, as 1030 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:33,960 Speaker 1: well as links out to our Verius social media accounts. 1031 00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:35,640 Speaker 1: We'll find a tab for our store where you can 1032 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 1: go and buy some cool merchandise, including some of the 1033 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,120 Speaker 1: new UH Squirrel merchandise that is coming out for Thanksgiving. 1034 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,640 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producers Alex 1035 00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,400 Speaker 1: Williams and Arry Harrison. 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