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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Authoughts podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe.

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Speaker 4: Isn't Joe?

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Speaker 3: I have a present for you?

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Speaker 4: Okay, I'm excited.

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Speaker 3: It's December tenth. Yeah, Christmas is.

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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 3: You go.

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Speaker 4: Let me see what is this? Okay, quality qualitysprays dot

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Speaker 4: com and it's a Hey, it seems like an illegal drug, oxytocin.

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Speaker 3: It's not illegal. It's not illegal.

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Speaker 2: I got it off Amazon for like sixty oxytocin.

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Speaker 4: That sounds illegal, it's not.

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Speaker 2: Okay, do you know what oxytocin actually is?

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Speaker 4: I'm sure it's really bad.

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Speaker 3: It's a peptide.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I don't know that. Yeah, I actually don't even

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Speaker 4: know what a peptide is. I've been hearing this word peptide.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what classification of chemical or molecule chain

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Speaker 4: or anything a peptide is. But I've been hearing about

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Speaker 4: this word peptide more and more.

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Speaker 3: This is important.

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Speaker 4: You're actually gonna give this a mirror? Is this just

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Speaker 4: a prop that I've done?

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Speaker 2: It's just a prop, Okay, And I just said that

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Speaker 2: that it's yours. But it's actually mine. Okay, peptides. Peptides

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Speaker 2: aren't the P in glp ones.

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Speaker 4: Oh so I think I do. Yeah, I think I

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Speaker 4: knew gop ones was a peptide, but I still don't

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Speaker 4: know what is it anyway.

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Speaker 5: All right.

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Speaker 2: The reason you're hearing about it a lot is because

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Speaker 2: a lot of people seem to be using them in

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Speaker 2: various ways. And there are all these different types of

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Speaker 2: peptides that supposedly do different things for the body. This

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Speaker 2: one apparently makes you better at eye contact and more sociable.

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Speaker 4: So really funny. Back when I was in I could

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Speaker 4: have used this, like twenty five years ago. When I

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Speaker 4: was younger, like in college. It didn't happen very often,

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Speaker 4: but I occasionally went on a few days and very rare,

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Speaker 4: very rare. I'm not going to say anything, very rare occurrence.

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Speaker 4: But one of the things I would notice if I

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Speaker 4: was out on a date and like the girl would

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Speaker 4: start like messing with like her hair a little bit.

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Speaker 4: She likes you, no, and she's like, if there's something

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Speaker 4: wrong with my hair because you keep looking like three

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Speaker 4: inches above my eyes and I'm like no, I'm just

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Speaker 4: very awkward. It's very difficult for me, and she's like, oh.

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Speaker 4: I was like, it's very awkward for me and not

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Speaker 4: very good at eye contact and so forth, And so

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Speaker 4: I just assumed it was something in my hair that

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Speaker 4: I was like trying to get out. And I was like, no,

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Just like this, this happened to you more than once.

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Speaker 4: Yes, So I could have really used a chemical that

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Speaker 4: would solve the eye contact problem. Now I've grown up,

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Speaker 4: I've grown out of it. I can look someone in

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Speaker 4: the eye.

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Speaker 2: Now, I will say I have tested it. I'm not

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Speaker 2: entirely convinced of its effects. But you know, in the

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Speaker 2: name of science, for all thoughts, I have been a

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Speaker 2: guinea pig.

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Speaker 4: So we know GLP ones whatever they're called, we goovi

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Speaker 4: and all those those are good for weight loss, and

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Speaker 4: we know it's almost a miracle drug, right, everyone's like incredible.

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Speaker 4: But in theory, there are other peptides out there that

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Speaker 4: could be equivalently miraculous. We just don't really know about them,

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Speaker 4: and maybe they're not sort of medicinalized the way that

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Speaker 4: the weight loss ones are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and also not distributed the same way as GLP

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Speaker 2: ones in America. And we're going to get all into

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Speaker 2: that because it's actually a really interesting topic, both culturally

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Speaker 2: and from a supply chain perspective, and we love supply chains,

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Speaker 2: so we love supply chains all right.

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Speaker 3: So for this.

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Speaker 2: Particular topic, we're actually going to have two guests, great

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Speaker 2: because it's so interesting and I got so into.

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Speaker 3: The peptide world.

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Speaker 2: Our first guest is Jasmine's son. She has an independent

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Speaker 2: writer covering AI and San Francisco culture, and this is

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Speaker 2: definitely a San Francisco cultural thing. So Jasmine, you are

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Speaker 2: truly the perfect guest. Thank you so much for coming on.

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Speaker 6: All thoughts, I am so excited to be here.

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Speaker 2: So first of all, well, why don't you just tell

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Speaker 2: us a little bit more about what peptides actually are

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Speaker 2: and how they first came onto your radar screen?

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Speaker 6: Right? So, peptides are basically short chains of amino acids.

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Speaker 6: They are the building blocks proteins. There are peptides that

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Speaker 6: are naturally occurring in the human body, so for example,

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Speaker 6: oxytocin like you have right there, we produce it during

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Speaker 6: pregnancy when you hug somebody, hug your partner, hug your

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Speaker 6: family member. But there are also synthetic peptides that are

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Speaker 6: manufactured in labs or people can take these peptides that

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Speaker 6: already exist in the human body and inject extra of

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Speaker 6: it if your body, say, doesn't produce enough. So insulin,

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Speaker 6: for example, is an example of a peptide that's been

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Speaker 6: used obviously for to treat diabetics for a very long time.

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Speaker 6: So peptides are actually a very broad class of drugs.

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Speaker 6: But I think the interest in more experimental peptides and

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Speaker 6: within biohacking communities and things like that has really exploded

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Speaker 6: in recent years. I would trace it to basically the

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Speaker 6: boom in GLP one use. A lot of folks who

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Speaker 6: I spoke to over the past few weeks who have

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Speaker 6: been experimenting with peptides and injecting them themselves, first started

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Speaker 6: getting comfortable with even the idea of injections, which were

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Speaker 6: previously seen as a bit intense for people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're injecting yourself with drugs. That has right connotations, right.

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Speaker 6: But I think that golp ones in a zembic and

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Speaker 6: WGOV were what really popularized it and made people comfortable.

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Speaker 6: So it first came on my radar aside from the

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Speaker 6: GOLP story, because I started seeing tweets that I'm sure

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Speaker 6: you guys have seen two all over usftech Twitter about

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Speaker 6: how everybody has a Chinese peptid dealer. Now, I thought

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Speaker 6: this was kind of a joke until I started mentioning

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Speaker 6: it in conversations and I realized that my friends were

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Speaker 6: on Chinese peptides. They were like, wait, Jasmine, are you

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Speaker 6: not on these? They're amazing. I got to get you

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Speaker 6: on these peptides. I got a dealer, I got my guy,

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Speaker 6: and I'm like, what are you on about? And I

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Speaker 6: think the first one that I heard about people using,

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Speaker 6: which is the most popular that I have since heard,

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Speaker 6: is read A True Tide, which is what some people

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Speaker 6: call a GLP three. So basically, GOLP ones are through

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Speaker 6: the FDA process. People are like something like twelve percent

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Speaker 6: of Americans depending on what survey you look at, are

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Speaker 6: using them. But there are now next generation weight loss

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Speaker 6: drugs that work on not just the GLP one receptors,

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Speaker 6: but also the GP receptors and the glougle on receptors

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Speaker 6: to encourage even faster weight loss. And these GLP threes

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Speaker 6: like redd A True Tide, are still in phase two

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Speaker 6: clinical trials. But because people have been watching this space,

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Speaker 6: they're seeing really good results in those clinical trials. Some

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Speaker 6: folks have thought, Okay, let me go straight to the source.

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Speaker 6: I'm going to find a Chinese manufacturer that makes red

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Speaker 6: a true tide for cheap and I will import them

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Speaker 6: at a low cost of maybe one hundred bucks two

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Speaker 6: hundred bucks a month from one of these gray market

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Speaker 6: suppliers and using myself for weight loss for one fifth

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Speaker 6: of the costs that I was getting my prescription ozempicat

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Speaker 6: or something like that.

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Speaker 3: I promised you this was a supply chage.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. No, obviously you want to talk more about peptides.

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Speaker 4: That's what we're here talking about. But I actually do

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Speaker 4: want to back up one second, because you're a San

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Speaker 4: Francisco culture reporter, among other things, and you write great

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Speaker 4: stuff about AI and communication all that stuff. One thing

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Speaker 4: I think about a lot these days is that we

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Speaker 4: all know that people in San Francisco really have a

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Speaker 4: very big influence on all of our lives, right because

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Speaker 4: they design the digital products that essentially constitute what makes

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Speaker 4: modern living distinct. But one thing I feel like and

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Speaker 4: a struggle an I articulate this all of these other

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Speaker 4: things that are part of the contemporary San Francisco lifestyle,

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Speaker 4: whether it's sort of like believing in AI doom scenarios, etc.

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Speaker 4: It's like weird cults that they form. Like to some extent,

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Speaker 4: this is such an important beat that you're on because

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Speaker 4: we are all living in the shadows of what has

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Speaker 4: going on in these people's brains, right, Like these ideas

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Speaker 4: that they think about body hacking and so forth, they

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Speaker 4: become the sort of like consumer products and so forth

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Speaker 4: that everyone just sort of uses without ever thinking about

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Speaker 4: like some of the philosophical gestalt behind it all.

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Speaker 6: Totally I mean, I think that's totally right. That's why

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Speaker 6: I love the San Francisco b I sort of collapse

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Speaker 6: it too, Like honestly, I just report on San Francisco,

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Speaker 6: whether that is. You know, in the beginning of twenty

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Speaker 6: twenty five, a lot of it was about the young tech, right,

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Speaker 6: and why did that happen? It's about AI. All the

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Speaker 6: weird sub ideologies, from AI doom to the successionists who

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Speaker 6: actually think that AI has a moral duty to replace

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Speaker 6: the human species because they're superior to us. There are

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Speaker 6: all these weird strains of thought, and I think ESAF,

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Speaker 6: especially this year, increasingly prides itself on sort of being

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Speaker 6: the place where the future comes first. They've sort of

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Speaker 6: re embraced that identity of like we're going to have

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Speaker 6: funerals for AI models that we missed. We are embracing

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Speaker 6: robotaxi abundance with Tesla Robotaxis and Zox's and Waymos, and

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Speaker 6: we're going to be the ones to trial the stuffers.

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Speaker 6: I'm going to a peptide rave this Saturday with a

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Speaker 6: cyberpunk dress code.

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Speaker 3: Sounds very there's.

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Speaker 6: A lot, it's very San Francisco. There are underground robot

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Speaker 6: bites that I'm sure you guys have seen videos of,

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Speaker 6: But I think San Francisco is really leaning into its

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Speaker 6: identity these days of weird kind of going to be

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Speaker 6: the place that is not sort of suffering under the

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Speaker 6: regulatory decelerationist burden that that's plaguing the rest of the

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Speaker 6: Western world. And we're going to embrace the frontier. And

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Speaker 6: I think peptides are part of that. It's a signaling

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Speaker 6: thing as much as health thing.

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, speaking of the tech community, is it true

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Speaker 2: that something like oxytocin it actually improves your eye contact?

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Speaker 3: And the way I heard.

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Speaker 2: It was this could be helpful for people who are

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Speaker 2: in tech, And yeah, maybe aren't that sociable?

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Speaker 6: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: So the oxytocin is the only peptide that I've personally tried.

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Speaker 6: I think I first heard about it because Will Deepew,

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Speaker 6: who's like a young AI researcher open AI, tweeted about

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Speaker 6: it as I think nasal oxytocin is going to be

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Speaker 6: ozebic for autism, an incredible line like what the like,

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Speaker 6: what the hell is this? And it's been tested on

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Speaker 6: people with aspergers to help improve again those feelings of

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Speaker 6: social connection, empathy, warmth that comes as a nail spray

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Speaker 6: you can get for fifty bucks, sixty bucks off Amazon

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Speaker 6: or something. So I also like you, Tracy. When I

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Speaker 6: tried it, I didn't think it worked, but my friends

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Speaker 6: did insist that I was a little bit friendlier than

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Speaker 6: I normally am, and I was in fact making more

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Speaker 6: eye contacts.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to have to do that.

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Speaker 2: I thought some experiments here at all thoughts, and just

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Speaker 2: have a bunch of conversations where we're on and off

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Speaker 2: the oxytocin.

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Speaker 3: Ye, see what happens we.

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Speaker 4: Got to I really could have used that in college

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Speaker 4: for sure. So there's all kinds of ones, right, So okay,

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Speaker 4: JP one's weight laws. This one supposedly helps you with

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Speaker 4: eye contact and connection. What are some of the other

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Speaker 4: things that people are using peptides for?

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Speaker 6: So aside from the GLP ones and the GLP threes,

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Speaker 6: which are the most popular, there are all sorts of peptides.

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Speaker 6: They are a really really broad class of chemical. So

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Speaker 6: the most popular other than that is BPC one five seven,

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Speaker 6: which supposedly helps with muscle healing and regeneration so after

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Speaker 6: a really hard workout. That one has been experimented with

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Speaker 6: in bodybuilding communities for many years. So there's all these

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Speaker 6: crazy bodybuilding forums where people are playing with this stuff

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Speaker 6: and human growth hormone and things like that. There is melanotan,

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Speaker 6: which supposedly increases melanin production in the skin. So I

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Speaker 6: talked to a founder a CEO of a unicorn logistics

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Speaker 6: company who told me that his first peptide was melanotan

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Speaker 6: because he hated being a ginger. He had always wanted

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Speaker 6: to stop being a ginger, so he cured it by

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Speaker 6: taking this thing that increases your melanin production. It makes

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Speaker 6: you tanner. Another person described it to me as the hot,

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Speaker 6: horny and tan peptide, so that one for the those

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Speaker 6: who aren't getting enough sunlight shut in in an office.

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Speaker 6: Maybe that's your pick. There is epitellon which folks have

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Speaker 6: credited with increasing improving their sleep, their cimax, which people

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Speaker 6: believe helps with their anxiety. To be clear, most of

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Speaker 6: the peptides, aside from the glps, have not been in

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Speaker 6: any human trials whatsoever, So a lot of this sort

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Speaker 6: of comes from anecdotal evidence in people experimenting rather than

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Speaker 6: from like FDA proved or like RCTs, and some of

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Speaker 6: these you know, only have animal trials or cell culture

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Speaker 6: in vitro tests.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this actually, because

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Speaker 2: my impression is peptides like there's not much profit to

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Speaker 2: be made from them for the pharma companies, and so

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Speaker 2: it's just not worth it to them to actually test

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Speaker 2: on humans, and yet they're still commercially available.

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Speaker 6: That is one of the stories I heard, because you know,

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Speaker 6: I asked, well, GLP ones have been so profitable, so like,

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Speaker 6: why aren't people trying to push through FDA trials these

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Speaker 6: other peptides that people have been crediting with like transformative

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Speaker 6: health improvements or whatever. And the story I heard is

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Speaker 6: that because peptides are these very small, very basic chains.

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Speaker 6: They're too commoditized. Basically, like at the point where these

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Speaker 6: Chinese factories are able to without a ton of like

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Speaker 6: extremely advanced scientific knowledge, be able to manufacture them on masks,

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Speaker 6: no company is going to want to invest like one

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Speaker 6: hundred million and a billion dollars in getting it through

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Speaker 6: the like excruciating FDA trial process, And so that sort

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Speaker 6: of left peptides in this gray market environment where people

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Speaker 6: are saying, like, okay, like I might as well go

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Speaker 6: import the stuff from China and maybe get it purity

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Speaker 6: tested myself. It's going to cost a few hundred dollars

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Speaker 6: in total, and let's just.

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Speaker 4: See, Yeah, let's talk about that, because I don't love

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Speaker 4: the idea of sticking myself with needles. But then also

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Speaker 4: I don't love the idea of like sticking myself with

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Speaker 4: needles for some random thing that came from a factory.

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Speaker 2: Or having a dealer rights my thing.

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Speaker 4: And I want to get into the legal aspects of

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Speaker 4: all of this. Is well, but yeah, talk to us

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Speaker 4: about the I guess just the comfort that people have

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Speaker 4: with frankly injecting themselves with chemicals that they probably have

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Speaker 4: no idea what's in there, can't verify it, or I

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Speaker 4: have no idea how the quality of the lab and

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Speaker 4: China that they're getting them from.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean so, I've interviewed probably a dozen plus

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Speaker 6: people peptide users in and around the tech community over

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Speaker 6: the past few weeks, and I will say that almost

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Speaker 6: everyone I spoke to, I'd ask like, Hey, are you scared?

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Speaker 6: Are you worried? Do you have to like get over

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Speaker 6: a mental hump with the stuff, And most of them

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Speaker 6: would tell me, you know what, like I have a

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Speaker 6: higher risk tolerance in most people. I think this is

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Speaker 6: something that say startup founders in particular, really pride themselves on.

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Speaker 6: And a lot of these people were startup founders, right,

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Speaker 6: they think I'm the kind of person who is willing

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Speaker 6: to take risks. I'm the kind of person who doesn't

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Speaker 6: really need to wait until I'm given permission to do something,

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Speaker 6: whether that's by a regulator buy some boss. I can

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Speaker 6: sort of study up in my own way and that's

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Speaker 6: good enough. So I think people were surprisingly, they were

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Speaker 6: very comfortable telling me there is some risk. I know

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Speaker 6: that there have been some negative side effects, but you

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Speaker 6: know what, I keep a journal every day I have

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Speaker 6: friends who have used it. I'm going to suppliers that

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Speaker 6: are showing their testing certifications from top peptide testing firms,

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Speaker 6: and that's good enough for me, even though I wouldn't

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Speaker 6: recommend that everybody do this. But you're right, Joe, this

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Speaker 6: is a legal gray area. Some people would even say

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Speaker 6: black market. So use of the vast majority of these peptides,

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Speaker 6: particularly the non glps, no human trials, no FDA approval,

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Speaker 6: whether for pharmaceutical use or for use in compounding pharmacies,

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Speaker 6: which glps have been somewhat approved for. What that means

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Speaker 6: is that it is in an a legal gray area

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Speaker 6: because they're also not on DEA lists, so they're also

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Speaker 6: not in the sort of illicit drug list. It's sort

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Speaker 6: of a we don't know. And so one funny thing

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Speaker 6: that people joke about is all of the vials for

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Speaker 6: these peptides will say for research use only, because.

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Speaker 3: Everyone's peptide research apparently.

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Speaker 6: Exactly so these Chinese manufacturers, what they are allowed to

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Speaker 6: do is to ship peptides around the world for research use,

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Speaker 6: for scientists, for medical researchers, for bioresearchers, and so as

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Speaker 6: long as you're not saying it's for human use, you

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Speaker 6: don't have to prove a certain level of purity standard.

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Speaker 6: You don't need necessarily a factory that follows cGMP proto calls,

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Speaker 6: which are an FD approval to know that a factory

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Speaker 6: meets certain quality standards. But again, research use has a

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Speaker 6: lower bar. So people are basically importing the peptides for

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Speaker 6: research use, and then what they'll sometimes do is then

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Speaker 6: ship it separately to purity testing firms. So there are

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Speaker 6: different ones that people trust and don't located in the US,

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Speaker 6: located in Europe. But they'll basically take their batch of

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Speaker 6: peptides that they got from the Chinese manufacturer, take a

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Speaker 6: few samples, ship them off to a testing site, get

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Speaker 6: a certification that it's pure, it's impure, and then they

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Speaker 6: will go mix them themselves. Certain suppliers will basically serve

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Speaker 6: as the American middlemen. They will be US based companies

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Speaker 6: that will negotiate with the Chinese factories themselves, sort of

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Speaker 6: figure out which ones are trusted by running purity tests

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Speaker 6: and like ten different Chinese factories, I find pick the

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Speaker 6: one that they trust the most and then sort of

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Speaker 6: offer their brands guarantee of running the purity testing process

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Speaker 6: for the US buyers, and so it really depends on

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Speaker 6: people's risk tolerance. I've spoken with people who are going

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Speaker 6: direct and literally just being in contact with the manufacturers themselves.

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Speaker 6: I've also spoken to people who have said, I'm willing

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Speaker 6: to use this US middleman supplier that my friends are

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Speaker 6: all using and say is legit and is providing these

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Speaker 6: tests and certifications, but I'm not going to go straight

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Speaker 6: to the factory.

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Speaker 2: Talk to us about the info sharing a little bit more,

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Speaker 2: because this is one aspect of the peptide community I

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Speaker 2: guess you would call it is everyone is sort of

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Speaker 2: sharing maybe their personal dealer, personal supplier, and also info

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Speaker 2: on their personal experience with efficacy.

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Speaker 6: Totally, I think the sort of epistemology of the space

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Speaker 6: is super interesting because it's very word of mouth based,

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Speaker 6: very anecdotal, and I think it is rooted in a

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Speaker 6: growing distrust of the medical establishment and established sources. So

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Speaker 6: people are sort of embracing this do your own research.

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Speaker 6: So I would say that quote unquote browoness influencers like

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Speaker 6: Joe Rogan or Andrew Huberman have both talked extensively about

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Speaker 6: these peptides, so there are very wide audiences, so followers

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Speaker 6: in those communities are learning about them. There's a lot

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Speaker 6: of word of mouth. For example, at Sortain gyms, trainers

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Speaker 6: and people who train together will be sharing their peptide sacks.

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Speaker 6: One of the folks who I spoke to learned about

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Speaker 6: the peptides at less Online, which is a rationalist conference

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Speaker 6: that happens every spring. There is a GLP one session

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Speaker 6: that she went to. She then discovered this person that

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Speaker 6: everybody else was on Red a True Tide instead, and

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Speaker 6: they all decided to tell her, Hey, we're all still alive,

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Speaker 6: so like, you should get on this. There's less Wrong

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Speaker 6: posts on the Rationalist forum describing people's day by day

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Speaker 6: experiences with peptides their amateur subsect blogs. They are very

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Speaker 6: shady telegram and discord groups where people are advertising their suppliers,

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Speaker 6: though honestly, I think I would not choose a supplier

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Speaker 6: off like a telegramm or discord group personally. But it

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Speaker 6: is kind of the wild West out there in terms

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Speaker 6: of information, and most people are really just going off

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Speaker 6: social proof and the people that they personally know.

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Speaker 4: You know, we did an episode a while back about adderall,

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Speaker 4: and of course a lot of people who are you know,

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Speaker 4: work in front of a computer, are field that they

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Speaker 4: can get some edge on adderall? Is there only a

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Speaker 4: level of competitiveness though in the culture such that you

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Speaker 4: feel like, look all their people are, maybe they're more

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Speaker 4: locked in, maybe they're better at office politics, or maybe

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Speaker 4: better at pitching a VC because totally they've got there

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Speaker 4: where people feel like they have to be on these

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Speaker 4: or they feel like they have to optimize their peptide

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Speaker 4: stack so that they can compete and sort of be

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Speaker 4: at their best.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean one of the YC founders

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Speaker 6: I talked to, she literally said, it's another thing I

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Speaker 6: can optimize, just like my SEO. She runs a SaaS

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Speaker 6: business that's her day job. Or another thing that somebody

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Speaker 6: in these communities told me is these people like sometimes

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Speaker 6: they're not overweight. In fact, a lot of the time

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Speaker 6: these folks are not actually overweight. And the reason they're

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Speaker 6: taking say bred a true tide or a weight less

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Speaker 6: peptide is because they want to eliminate the food noise

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Speaker 6: so they don't have to take a break for lunch.

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Speaker 6: They can just be locked in for sixteen hours straight,

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Speaker 6: or like, why do you have to go to the gym,

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Speaker 6: which is going to you know, drain your ability to

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Speaker 6: run a few more experiments or whatever when you could

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Speaker 6: just be taking one of these. And so I think

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Speaker 6: there is a lot of this optimization ethic that is

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Speaker 6: driving people's desire. Another piece that I'm sort of thinking

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Speaker 6: about is whether the looks maxing trends, you know, have

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Speaker 6: impacted Silicon Valley as well. So one of the founders

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Speaker 6: who I spoke to, who is using a weight loss

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Speaker 6: pep tide, mentioned that she watches IC launch videos and

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Speaker 6: she realizes none of the founders are overweight anymore. And

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Speaker 6: I'm gonna have to be on video if I'm a founder,

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Speaker 6: I'm going to have to go on podcasts, and I

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Speaker 6: want to make sure that I look my best. So

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Speaker 6: I do think that these sort of optimization trends are

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Speaker 6: impacting peptide use as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is something we've discussed on the show before.

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Speaker 2: But this idea that looks maxing is going to become

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Speaker 2: more important as information gets commoditized or the knowledge economy

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Speaker 2: gets commoditized via AI. Then your only edge is going

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Speaker 2: to be basically what you look like and how you

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Speaker 2: interact with people. By the way, I'm a big fan

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Speaker 2: of no lunch in the office, Joe knows. I refuse

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Speaker 2: to eat like the sad salads that cause twenty dollars

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Speaker 2: over here in New York. I find it's better just

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Speaker 2: to save my calories for like a really nice dinner.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, talk to us about how you've seen the

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Speaker 2: future of peptides kind of unrolling, because it does seem

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Speaker 2: to be. It's kind of a weird thing where these

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Speaker 2: are becoming more popular and presumably we're just at the

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Speaker 2: beginning stages of people hearing about this and more people

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Speaker 2: consuming them, but there's little to no sign of FDA

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Speaker 2: approval or these becoming sort of I don't want to

437
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 2: say legalized because they're in this gray market area, but

438
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 2: made official in some way.

439
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 6: Right, it's hard to say. Everyone I spoke to, whether

440
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,360
Speaker 6: suppliers or doctors in California, definitely said that they saw

441
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 6: peptide use booming. This year. I've been seeing more news

442
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 6: in mainstream journal, mainstream newspaper outlets about personal peptide use.

443
00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 6: I think that peptide use is going to explode as

444
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 6: people realize that I can be paying two hundred dollars

445
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 6: for the same semaglutide that I am currently getting for

446
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 6: twelve hundred. I find it very hard to imagine that

447
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 6: that is not going to explode. There are TikTok influencer

448
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 6: niches telling you how to mix the bacteriostatic water with

449
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 6: the powdered stuff in the vials, and how to inject

450
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 6: it if you've never done it before. As for the

451
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 6: policy environment, I think it's hard to predict. Last year,

452
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 6: RFK Junior, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, said

453
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 6: that he would end the Biden administration's war on peptides.

454
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 6: He sort of has embraced these take your health into

455
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 6: your own hands like experimental therapeutics. At the same time,

456
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 6: there hasn't actually been actions so far this year by

457
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 6: the Health and Human Services administration to bring peptides into

458
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 6: a more legal zone. So while RFK has signaled that

459
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 6: he will, there hasn't been policy action yet. I did

460
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 6: reach out to the AGHS and the FDA for comment,

461
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 6: and they said that they cannot predict future regulation, but

462
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 6: that they are actively revising the list of bolk peptides

463
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 6: that are a loud for compounding and compounding pharmacies, so

464
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 6: sort of classic we don't know, maybe looking at it language,

465
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 6: but folks in the peptide community are really hoping to

466
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,360
Speaker 6: see a more at least less a fair regulatory stance

467
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 6: where they're not going to be shutting down these peptide suppliers.

468
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 2: Jasmine Son, that was absolutely amazing. You were truly the

469
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: perfect guest to talk about the intersection of peptides in

470
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: San Francisco culture.

471
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 3: So thank you so much for coming on all plots.

472
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 6: Thanks so much for having me better get ready for

473
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 6: my peptide rave.

474
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 4: That's right, fun.

475
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: So Joe, Jasmine did a great job of introducing us

476
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 2: to the peptide space about which we don't really know anything,

477
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 2: but I think we need to talk to someone who's

478
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: actually in the business.

479
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is one of those stories where it's obviously

480
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 4: a cultural story, but it's also a supply chain regulation

481
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 4: marketing standpoint, like really coming from how do they get

482
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 4: into And for me, it's like, how do people have

483
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 4: any confidence like what they're literally injecting into their bodies?

484
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 4: Where's this coming from?

485
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 2: So I have the perfect second guest we're going to

486
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 2: be speaking with, Zach David. He is the managing partner

487
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: of per Sec Technologies, which runs Peptide Partners, which is

488
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 2: a supplier of peptide.

489
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: So, Zach, how did.

490
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: You get into the space, because you've had an interesting

491
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 2: career path, right.

492
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 5: I got into this space basically solving the problem for myself.

493
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 5: A few years ago. My health was very poor and

494
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 5: I started working with a specialist in the wellness and

495
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 5: longevity community and functional medicine, and I noticed the peptide

496
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 5: therapies that she was prescribing were highly effective but also

497
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 5: extremely expensive. So then I started up doing a little

498
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 5: supply chain sleuthing of my and found a much better

499
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 5: solution to that. And the question that she asked was

500
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 5: do you think it would be legal for me to

501
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 5: do that for my patients? And the answer is, of

502
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 5: course no, but that's set off a fourteen month investigation

503
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 5: on how to bring that into the legal market, which

504
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,479
Speaker 5: is what we're eventually working on.

505
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 4: Why don't you tell us just sort of the basics

506
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 4: of what you do? What does the service your business provides?

507
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 5: So very similar to what I went through, a lot

508
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 5: of these peptide therapies are either met multi year or lifelong,

509
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 5: and they exist, and people are going to Chinese peptides

510
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 5: to find cheaper solutions, and so we started pushing for

511
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 5: independent testing for endotoxin screening for heavy metal testing, which

512
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 5: the incumbents in the industry were not doing at all

513
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 5: at the time, and now pretty much every body is.

514
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 2: So I have so many questions already, But how do

515
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 2: you actually go about finding a supplier for a particular peptide?

516
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 2: Because I imagine you know, you're dealing with people who

517
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 2: are all the way over in China. There's probably a

518
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 2: lot of different companies to choose from, and not that

519
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 2: much information out there about them. How do you even

520
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: begin to go about doing this.

521
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 5: There's a good mix of how to find them A

522
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 5: lot advertise on say TikTok, or they'll find you on WhatsApp.

523
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 5: They will hunt down your website and then introduce themselves

524
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 5: as suppliers, and so we go through a long vetting process.

525
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,959
Speaker 5: By some estimates, there are ten major manufacturers, and then

526
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 5: they're a handful of that manufacture in house, and then

527
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 5: there's something called lyophilization, which is kind of like the

528
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 5: finishing step that puts it in the bodels. We basically

529
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 5: we're just constantly talking to new potential suppliers and we'll

530
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 5: give them a try. We'll send everything out for testing

531
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 5: and The labs that we use are based in the

532
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 5: US that follow USP standards and FDA guidelines, which is

533
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 5: a little bit different than some of the more popular

534
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 5: testing labs that are overseas.

535
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 4: Okay, talk us through the step by step. Okay, you

536
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 4: find a supplier based in China, you like them, whatever,

537
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 4: et cetera. Where does it arrive when it gets to

538
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 4: the US. Does it go to the lab first? Does

539
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 4: it go to you? If it goes to you, what

540
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 4: percentage of vials or what percentage of whatever is actually

541
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 4: checked such that you could say, okay, this is a

542
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 4: good batch.

543
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 5: Right, so we randomly sample from say we what are

544
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 5: a thousand viles, will randomly sample between three and five

545
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 5: and if the variance in the quality is very tight

546
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 5: and we consider that a good batch. We famously throw

547
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 5: out batches we don't consider up to our standards. And

548
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 5: sometimes we'll post pictures of us don't be in the

549
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 5: trash on Twitter, which gets us a little cachet. But

550
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 5: it's not fun to dump money in the garbage, but

551
00:27:59,160 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 5: sometimes you have to do it.

552
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 4: Can I just ask about the sequence of the chain

553
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 4: in particular, because it is a peptide, what is the

554
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 4: type of storage that it has to be involved in

555
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 4: from the container on the ship to the dock. Is

556
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 4: it a temperature type thing. How do you ensure that

557
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 4: sort of quality doesn't degrade during the shipping process.

558
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, if you were

559
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 5: shipping very large amounts, you would want a cold chain

560
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 5: supply the entire route. However, the lyophilization process keeps things

561
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 5: shelf stable for quite a long time, and recent studies

562
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 5: have shown that it doesn't degrade as fast as people

563
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 5: initially thought. So when we use commercial grade freezers, as

564
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,479
Speaker 5: soon as we get it in and then we'll know,

565
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 5: we'll label the files and then we'll randomly sample.

566
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: Tell us more about the manufacturers in China because I'm

567
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: having a sort of hard time wrapping my head around

568
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: who they actually are. So I take it most of

569
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: them are not big pharma offshoots. They're sort of in

570
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: dependent manufacturers. But how are these companies actually I think

571
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: has coming into being.

572
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, so there's an interesting mix of where the gray

573
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 5: market manufacturers and well, let's call it the lit market manufacturers.

574
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 5: There are a handful of ten to fifteen billion dollar

575
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 5: publicly traded companies in China that do contract manufacturing, but

576
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 5: they only sell to FDA supply like FDA registered companies

577
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 5: with supply chains, the major gray market labs, they only

578
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 5: sell to other companies within China who then finish it

579
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 5: with aliaphilization and then sell directly to the consumers.

580
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: And what's the actual material that makes up a peptide?

581
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: When we're talking about peptides, like, what are the building

582
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: blocks of a particular you know, I get a vile

583
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: in the mail?

584
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 6: What is it?

585
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 3: Exactly?

586
00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 5: So? The FDA definition is that is a amino acid

587
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 5: chain of forty or less. That definition was added to

588
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 5: the Federal Register in twenty twenty. And it is no

589
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 5: surprise that things like semaglutide otherwise known as ozempic unjaro

590
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 5: otherwise known as zepetide, and the next generation that everyone

591
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 5: is currently using called regitrudtide, all happen to be exactly

592
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 5: thirty nine in light. So I think there was some

593
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 5: clever lobbying. But also things less than fifty tend to

594
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 5: be very stable, unlike larger proteins, which tend to fold

595
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 5: it on themselves, And the manufacturing process called solid face

596
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 5: peptide synthesis is almost a solved problem.

597
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: But how do we actually make amino acids?

598
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 5: That is a good question. I would have to follow

599
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 5: up with you on that. Some are naturally derived and

600
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 5: some are synthetic. The resurgence in peptides from its original

601
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 5: heyday is partially due to synthetic amino acids.

602
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 4: Just talk to us about law and regulation. What is

603
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 4: the stance of these things. I actually still don't totally

604
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 4: under stand. Are a legal to be sold? I don't

605
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 4: know what this term gray market means, et cetera. Just

606
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 4: walk to us about how the government, whether we're talking

607
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 4: criminal authorities or just FDA type authorities think about these

608
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 4: things right now.

609
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 5: So the guidance is very, very careful. There has to

610
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 5: be a lot of disclaimers about not for human use

611
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 5: on anything sold for research purposes. Doctors can prescribe them.

612
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 5: For example, there's one called Sir Moorlin where it was

613
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 5: abandoned by the manufacturer for economic reasons, not for safety reasons,

614
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 5: in around two thousand and eight, but you can get

615
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 5: it from compounding pharmacies in the United States, and so

616
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 5: doctors will was formally FDA approved. However, thanks from compounding

617
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 5: pharmacies do not undergo the same safety standards, But what

618
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 5: doctors will still prescribe stuff like that the FDA, I think,

619
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 5: put this when it's for research use only, then you're legit.

620
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 5: I'm really selling for research use. It does not fall

621
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 5: under there.

622
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: You just so a lot of people are conducting peptide

623
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 2: research in the comfort of their own homes.

624
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 5: Yes, as is. I'm sure you know most last listeners

625
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 5: are aware. The market for micropipets is growing eight percent

626
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 5: year over year projected through thirty thirty. So I do

627
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 5: believe that a lot of people have the home labs.

628
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, we micro pipets. What do we yes, little pipets.

629
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 4: This is what is that? Oh, that's like a little

630
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 4: thing to extract some liquid. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah,

631
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 4: so this is our proxy for peptide consumption. Is the

632
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 4: booming market for micropipets.

633
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 5: It is the booming market for micropipets.

634
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: I'll take it.

635
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 5: So that's a little it's a little tongue in cheek, but.

636
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 4: No, no, no, but this is useful. It's like, okay,

637
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 4: like if we see this thing rising, then intuitively this

638
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 4: is what they're using for. So in your marketing, what

639
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 4: do you have to say such as that you don't

640
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 4: run a faul of people in DC or whatever.

641
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 5: We have strict terms and conditions for research use, labeled

642
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 5: on the boxes, labeled on the vials, labeled on their website.

643
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 5: We do not even use the term dosing. We only

644
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 5: talk about sample sizes and just We are very, very

645
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 5: very pro research. But there is a big movement of

646
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 5: people who self organize and telegram and discord communities who

647
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 5: are experimenting on themselves.

648
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 4: Longtime Internet friend of the podcast Bourb German bourb Bros.

649
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 4: Yes I saw she had a Chinese peptide rave in Francisco.

650
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, yes, we sponsored it. It was nice. We

651
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 5: had a great time. She's a very very very good

652
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 5: friend of mine.

653
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: I'm guessing that's the same one Jasmine went to.

654
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 4: Probably unless Francisco. Could there be two Chinese problem, so.

655
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: Zach, how do you actually decide which peptides to stalk?

656
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: Is it whichever ones are getting the most buzz on TikTok?

657
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: Do the manufacturers approach you with new things that they're

658
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: making and then you test them out?

659
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 5: That's a yeah, that's a very good question because the

660
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 5: formulais change a lot. Although between the manufacturers and the

661
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 5: suppliers they do have very very similar formulais the ones

662
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 5: who deal with the controlled substances and anabolics we tend

663
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 5: to stay away from. But the ones that we stock,

664
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 5: we look for good safety profiles in humans. Unfortunately, for

665
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 5: almost all of these, there are not a lot of

666
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 5: good randomized control trials, but a lot of them have

667
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 5: good safety studies in humans. But so certain things like

668
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 5: there's a popular one called AOD nine to six oh

669
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 5: four which has not had a successful human trial ever,

670
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 5: and so we just decided not to stock that for

671
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 5: ethical reasons.

672
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 4: Okay, so we know that in theory, well we know

673
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 4: more than in theory that the west famous peptides can

674
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 4: cur g appetite and therefore facilitate weight loss. Tracy had

675
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 4: a little thing of a spray that ostensibly helped autists

676
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 4: make or eye contact, which is of course a valuable

677
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 4: skill if you want to live in human civilization. What

678
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 4: are some of the other what are some of the

679
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 4: other popular what are the other things that people are

680
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 4: consuming peptides? Are there any that might surprise us?

681
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 5: So there is a class called growth hormone releasing peptides

682
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 5: or growth me stimulating peptides. They have very short half

683
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 5: lives rather than like HGH replacement therapy, like human growth

684
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 5: on replacement therapy, which will eventually cause your body to

685
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 5: naturally stop producing its own This class works with your

686
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 5: pituitary to make like an impulse and release some growth

687
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 5: hormone rather than replace it.

688
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 4: So that would be clusters or bodybuilders or anyone who

689
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 4: just wants more strength or that we're talking about.

690
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 5: And yeah, and it's also been increasingly prescribed by physicians

691
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 5: for improved sleep as well.

692
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 4: I could use that.

693
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: Why don't we manufacture peptides in the US. How is

694
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: it but China seems to dominate this particular market.

695
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 5: That is a great question as well. I believe it's

696
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 5: the input, input materials, and the labor and expertise required

697
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 5: to engineer it. What happens is a lot of the

698
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 5: raw materials are produced in China and then over here

699
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 5: they're finished in facilities by doing the lyophilization and purification

700
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 5: steps by compounding pharmacies.

701
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 4: Okay, everyone who uses these, they have to inject them.

702
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 4: Is this?

703
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 5: Is it?

704
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 4: All needles and.

705
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 5: Files mostly At this time, however, we've seen an increasing

706
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 5: amount of oral formulations. The problem is because of these

707
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 5: are small molecules. The digestive system breaks them down very quickly,

708
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 5: so creating reliable oral formulations for peptide therapies as has

709
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 5: been historically very difficult.

710
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: How do you reduce costs in this space? Is it

711
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 2: buying in bulk from a particular supplier or I don't know,

712
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: finding cheaper manufacturers of vials and the lionization process, ionization.

713
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 5: Process, biophilization, biophilation, it's it's just a fancy word for

714
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 5: freeze drying.

715
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, the freeze drying process. Then that's easier.

716
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it is. It is buying in larger and

717
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 5: larger quantities. One of our manufacturing partners over there, they

718
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 5: created a novel method of being able to produce large

719
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 5: quantities of raw materials. And the next step in our

720
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 5: company's evolution is going to be buying a manufacturing facility

721
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 5: and starting to do that finishing step here and slowly

722
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 5: over time, bring this above board and fully FDA compliant.

723
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 4: Am I stupid for not using peptides? I work good

724
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 4: in a very competitive industry. I have a very demanding schedule.

725
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 4: I have two children. I'm forty five, and so I'm

726
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 4: at the second half of the curve and my body

727
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 4: is getting a little deteriorating and getting a little bit

728
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 4: closer to death each day. Like am I stupid for

729
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 4: like not tasting the fruits of advanced science?

730
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 5: That is a question between you and your physician.

731
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 4: Okay, that is a very smart answer. Do you feel

732
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 4: that it is an important element of your ability to

733
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 4: thrive and compete your research into peptides?

734
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 5: I do. I like them a lot. I've noticed a

735
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 5: lot of good changes, especially my health my energy over

736
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 5: the years. But I also do work closely with a

737
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 5: physician and under the care of one.

738
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 4: Can I ask you a little bit about marketing. How

739
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 4: do people discover your company?

740
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 5: I think it will serve So let's see. Word of

741
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 5: mouth has been great, of several influencers written about like

742
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 5: the cost effectiveness of our product. And then there's a

743
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 5: website called Fenric which has started to offer this wonderful

744
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 5: service where people can send in files from anyone that

745
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 5: they buy off any of these research use only sites.

746
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 5: I think they've cover over one hundred and forty companies now,

747
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 5: and we've started to take number one slots on their

748
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 5: site just left and right. So I think we're doing something.

749
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 5: We're doing something a little bit better than everyone else.

750
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: So people crowdsourcing a lot of the research and reviews.

751
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: And also, I guess you hold peptide raves, right, that's

752
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: a marketing.

753
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 5: Thing that was once. It might happen again. You know,

754
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 5: I'm not much of a I'm not much of a

755
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 5: d answer, but I did. I did feel some questions.

756
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 4: Something that sort of works a little bit like human

757
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 4: growth hormone, I get very appealing weight loss again, concentrations.

758
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 4: Are there any surprising peptides? What's the most unexpected thing

759
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,479
Speaker 4: that a peptide might in research suggest could benefit someone.

760
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:05,479
Speaker 5: I don't know if I should say this out loud?

761
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 5: Let me do?

762
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 4: You definitely should say that loud.

763
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, Well, there is one peptide that goes under

764
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 5: the name pt one one, it's brand name. It's actually

765
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 5: an FT approved one. It's called Vilisi, and it is

766
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 5: meant for low sex drive.

767
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 4: Very completely legitimate. Nothing wrong with saying that out loud

768
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 4: for men and women.

769
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 5: It's meant for it's meant for women, but according to

770
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 5: people that I who have told me, it works for

771
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 5: men as well.

772
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: Many people are saying, what's the what's the customs process?

773
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 3: Actually?

774
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: Like for this because I imagine, I mean, customs is

775
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: a pain at the best of times, and I imagine

776
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: for something like this, it's potentially even more complicated. And

777
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 2: then also, have you been impacted by tariffs at all?

778
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was really fun to see the first time

779
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 5: a UPS driver ask for cash on delivery since like

780
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety eight, you know, rubber rubber cash on delivery.

781
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 5: That was when they when tariffs first came back, and

782
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 5: no one really knew. No one had the infrastructure to

783
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 5: charge in advance. Now they'll now, they'll let you know, Hey,

784
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 5: you're going to owe thirty dollars here, sixty dollars here.

785
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 2: It's like an online payment portal too, right, It's yeah,

786
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: it's none, but.

787
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,479
Speaker 5: It originally there wasn't. Originally there wasn't a driver showed

788
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 5: up and wanted to check. Yeah, interesting piece, It was crazy.

789
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 4: I'm ready about this PC one. So unlike viagra, which

790
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 4: famously opens up blood flow pathways, this one, it's a

791
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 4: method of action, is actually to increase the underlying sexual

792
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 4: excitement itself, which is sort of a different way. It's interesting.

793
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 5: I have heard I have heard that it works.

794
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 4: You've heard that it works.

795
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 5: Yep. I don't have any experience with it, but I've

796
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 5: heard that it works.

797
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 2: Wait, so what does the customs documentation actually look like

798
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: when the stuff arrives at a port?

799
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 3: What forms are you filling out?

800
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 5: They're fun, They're you know, half a Mandarin, so it's

801
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 5: a little bit different.

802
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 4: Ascanis We're fun. Language doesn't matter these days.

803
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 2: How long do you think it's going to take, if

804
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: it happens at all, for these sorts of peptides to

805
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: become as you put it, above board in the US.

806
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 5: So there's an interesting history there. So the most popular

807
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 5: ones basically in September twenty twenty three, we call the

808
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 5: pepside arm again, about seventeen twenty of the most popular

809
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 5: ones that were prescribed by doctors in the wellness and

810
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 5: longevity community were put on this what's called the five

811
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 5: H three a banned list, and they banned the prescribing

812
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 5: or the compounding of certain peptides. And according to my physician,

813
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 5: it was not for particularly good scientific reasons, but the

814
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 5: explanation that they give is that it can trigger immunevers

815
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 5: the adversary immune responses.

816
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 4: Last question for me, has there been any change in

817
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 4: DC since the changing of the administration in terms of

818
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 4: either at the FDA or otherwise.

819
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 5: So I go through all of the enforcement letters that

820
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 5: the fs and you can go on the website and

821
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 5: you can see every enforcement letter and every warning letter

822
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 5: that they send to every single website. And I believe

823
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 5: the last one ever sent was December twenty twenty four,

824
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,240
Speaker 5: so there has not been a lot of enforcement.

825
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a pretty big hint. All right, Zach, We're

826
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: going to leave it there, But thank you so much

827
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: for coming on all thoughts. That was super interesting, such

828
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 2: a huge fancy thank you.

829
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 4: We're going to use it. And this is a real

830
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 4: thank you so much.

831
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 3: That so Joe.

832
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 2: That was really interesting one episode. So obviously it intersects

833
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 2: with a bunch of athots themes, primarily competition with China

834
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 2: in the biotech space and also supply chain issues and

835
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 2: medical regulation.

836
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 4: Are we going to see the White House adopt a

837
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 4: industrial policy to wean us off of our dependence on

838
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 4: China for experimental peptides? Well, I want to talk about that.

839
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: What I was about to say is, actually we've talked

840
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: about this before, but you could envision a world where

841
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: knowledge becomes very commodified because of AI, and so everyone's

842
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 2: competitive edge is basically what you look like, how you

843
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: present yourself and interact with others. So maybe in that economy,

844
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: peptides have a lot of value.

845
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I could totally say it. I mean, I think,

846
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 4: I mean the way I think about that question is

847
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 4: we don't even need to talk about AI in the

848
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 4: sense that we are already on this path. Right. People

849
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 4: have been looks maxing prior to the invention of chatbots.

850
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 4: People have felt ever since the maybe since the iPhone

851
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 4: or maybe since Instagram.

852
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 3: Etcetera, have always mattered. But I think we're at acceleration point.

853
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what I'm saying is like this already

854
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,439
Speaker 4: feels like it's accelerating some of these Trent. Absolutely, looks

855
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 4: have always mattered, people have always been anxious about their weight,

856
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 4: et cetera. But it does feel like this pressure is

857
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 4: just building where everyone is thinking about these things. Everyone

858
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 4: feels very competitive all of these things, and everyone is

859
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 4: open about how competitive.

860
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 3: Very open. It's kind of surprising.

861
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a time when people didn't talk about

862
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 2: things like their plastic surgery, but it seems very or

863
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 2: more transparent than it needs to be. The other thing

864
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 2: I was thinking about, just in terms of regulation. I mean,

865
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: it's notable that it's a gray market right as we described,

866
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 2: and ostensibly everyone is doing peptide research in their basements,

867
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: and that's kind of a joke, right, But on the

868
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 2: other hand, it's not really a joke because what we're

869
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: doing is kind of outsourcing human trials. Yeah, I guess

870
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 2: to like citizens who are opting in, they're the ones

871
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: opting in to test these new treatments.

872
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting we did that episode with day

873
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 4: Wallack and he talked about how we could have a

874
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 4: model of sort of market for pharmaceuticals and therapies in

875
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 4: which the only thing required to sell something is the

876
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 4: safety trial. Right now, for any therapy, we do safety

877
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 4: and then efficacy, but it is very you could argue

878
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 4: that really the only thing that should be required is

879
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 4: a safety trial and then it's up to the consumer

880
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 4: or whatever. You know. I think you could make that

881
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 4: argument that then it's up to the doctor and the

882
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 4: consumer together to decide is this worthwhile given the price

883
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 4: of what we know about, et cetera. But what it

884
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 4: feels like to me is we're sort of entering this

885
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 4: era in which regardless of what the formal law states

886
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 4: or what regulation state. There is a cultural move towards

887
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 4: letting people experiment as they want with things that by

888
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 4: and large, it doesn't sound like there's much evidence of

889
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 4: particularly harmful dangerous with a lot of this stuff.

890
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: Maybe no one has died from peptides that I.

891
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 4: Know, as far as I know, I haven't seen that,

892
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 4: et cetera. And so it feels like we're sort of,

893
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 4: you know, this is part of the hacker culture. It's like, Okay,

894
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 4: there's probably not much danger, I suppose, but what it

895
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 4: does for you, that's on you to figure out.

896
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 2: All Right, Thank you everyone who is experimenting with peptides.

897
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: You're doing it for the greater good. I'm sure.

898
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 3: Shall we leave it there.

899
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 4: Let's leave it there.

900
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.

901
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

902
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 4: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart,

903
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 4: follow our guesst Jasmine Son She's at Jasmine New Sun,

904
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 4: and Zach David. He's at Zach David. Follow our producers

905
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 4: Carman Rodriguez at Kerman armand dash Ol Bennett at Dashbot

906
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 4: and kel Brooks at Keil Brooks from odd Laws content.

907
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 4: Go to Bloomberg dot com slash odd Logs with a

908
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 4: daily newsletter and all of our episodes, and you can

909
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910
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Speaker 4: in our discord discord gig slash Oddlins And.

911
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 2: If you enjoy odd Lots, if you like it when

912
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 2: we talk about the peptide supply chain, then please leave

913
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 2: us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember,

914
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,759
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917
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Speaker 2: and follow the instructions there.

918
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.