WEBVTT - Elizabeth Kott 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:15.190 Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome 0:00:15.230 --> 0:00:18.430 back to Work in Progress, friends. This week, we have 0:00:18.910 --> 0:00:22.500 one of my closest friends on the podcast for a 0:00:23.300 --> 0:00:28.100 very personal conversation. My book comes out next week, which 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.300 is is still a wild sentence for me to say, 0:00:31.460 --> 0:00:34.760 even though I've been staring at the pub date on 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.660 my calendar all year. And maybe it feels crazy because 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:41.460 after years of thinking about whether I was ready to 0:00:41.500 --> 0:00:44.480 tell my own story and some of these stories, I'm 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:46.840 finding that in the days leading up to the release, 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.640 I've really been thinking a lot about the people that 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:56.820 helped me get to this place today, particularly my chosen family. 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.820 For me, chosen family is the village that you build 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:05.980 through friendship, showing up and growing up in some cases together. 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:10.259 The people that see all of you and continue to 0:01:10.300 --> 0:01:14.940 choose you over and over again. My life has certainly 0:01:14.980 --> 0:01:17.030 been shaped by that kind of love, which is one 0:01:17.069 --> 0:01:21.209 of the reasons it feels especially meaningful to have my 0:01:21.390 --> 0:01:26.170 dear friend Elizabeth Cott join me on the pod. Elizabeth 0:01:26.310 --> 0:01:30.450 is a creative strategist and a longtime podcaster herself who 0:01:30.490 --> 0:01:34.830 has spent years exploring culture, wellness, creativity, and all the 0:01:34.910 --> 0:01:38.450 wonderfully strange questions that make us so curious about being human. 0:01:39.690 --> 0:01:45.470 Elizabeth is funny and exacting and always game for a 0:01:45.530 --> 0:01:49.570 deep conversation. In fact, a special chapter in my book 0:01:49.650 --> 0:01:53.560 is centered on one of those memorable exchanges with her. 0:01:54.540 --> 0:01:58.440 So today, I want to reflect with Elizabeth about that 0:01:58.670 --> 0:02:02.850 particular moment from the book, which kind of rocked my world, 0:02:03.590 --> 0:02:08.170 and about how some people feel destined to be in 0:02:08.250 --> 0:02:22.230 our lives. Let's dive in with Elizabeth Cox. It's actually 0:02:22.270 --> 0:02:25.250 really funny because my favorite thing to ask everybody who 0:02:25.290 --> 0:02:28.510 comes on the show is about their childhood self. Okay. 0:02:28.630 --> 0:02:33.609 You know, if you got to encounter Elizabeth at eight 0:02:33.630 --> 0:02:36.070 or nine years old, do you think you'd each recognize 0:02:36.110 --> 0:02:38.970 each other? And when I was thinking about asking you 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:40.920 that question, I was like, oh my God, we've known 0:02:40.980 --> 0:02:45.200 each other through so many versions of our younger selves. 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:49.829 And I'm just like, wait, I've... oh, I'm getting so 0:02:49.870 --> 0:02:54.650 emotional right off the bat. I'm like, we've always recognized 0:02:54.710 --> 0:02:57.430 each other, even when we were basically little kids. And 0:02:57.450 --> 0:02:58.730 this is so cool. 0:02:59.230 --> 0:03:02.470 I know. No, it's like, I mean, there's so many 0:03:03.750 --> 0:03:06.630 poignant memories I have and you are standing right there. 0:03:08.150 --> 0:03:12.690 Do you think if you really go back though, like 0:03:12.790 --> 0:03:16.739 I know our nine-year-old selves would be friends, but Like 0:03:16.780 --> 0:03:20.600 that's obvious. But do you, how do you kind of 0:03:20.660 --> 0:03:24.250 relate to that young version of yourself now? I feel 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:27.410 like at this stage in our lives, we're all really 0:03:27.450 --> 0:03:31.510 getting to know ourselves in that way that you hear happens, 0:03:31.590 --> 0:03:33.130 you kind of roll your eyes and then it happens 0:03:33.169 --> 0:03:34.710 to you and you're like, oh my God, it really 0:03:34.790 --> 0:03:38.590 is so seismic. So do you think about her in 0:03:39.570 --> 0:03:40.270 a different way now? 0:03:40.290 --> 0:03:44.000 You know, it's interesting because In so much of the 0:03:44.140 --> 0:03:47.360 creative healing work I've done, so much of it is 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.160 going back to what you liked when you were younger, 0:03:51.420 --> 0:03:54.260 what lit you up, what did you gravitate towards? Because 0:03:54.310 --> 0:03:57.910 that's such an amazing roadmap to finding what will light 0:03:57.950 --> 0:04:00.090 you up at any. 0:03:59.910 --> 0:04:00.630 Point in your life. 0:04:01.570 --> 0:04:07.630 And so I still will put on the Chorus Line 0:04:07.670 --> 0:04:12.490 soundtrack to soothe my soul and sing every lyric I 0:04:12.530 --> 0:04:15.310 was just that kid with all the tapes for all 0:04:16.070 --> 0:04:21.810 the musicals and, like, always trying to, you know, find 0:04:21.850 --> 0:04:25.010 a little delight in the day. And I feel as 0:04:25.070 --> 0:04:28.170 if I've found that person again through so much work. 0:04:29.250 --> 0:04:33.470 And so I feel like we would– she and I 0:04:33.510 --> 0:04:35.110 would connect in a really nice way. 0:04:35.130 --> 0:04:35.850 Yeah. 0:04:36.450 --> 0:04:39.650 I think she'd be really excited about the life that 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:40.339 has formed. 0:04:41.300 --> 0:04:46.140 I mean– you've really, you've done so many cool and 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:51.050 interesting things in your life. And especially because they're so creative. 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:53.089 I feel like a little girl would just lose her 0:04:53.130 --> 0:04:58.830 mind for that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I, speaking of 0:04:59.350 --> 0:05:02.469 eight or nine-year-old selves, I threw on the other day, 0:05:02.490 --> 0:05:05.070 and I don't even know why. It was probably just 0:05:05.110 --> 0:05:09.180 like a little sparkle, kismet, bump from the universe or something. 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:15.840 But somebody... I heard something that sounded to me from 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.830 somebody's music playing out on the street. It sounded like 0:05:19.870 --> 0:05:25.680 the chords for the iconic Paula Abdul album. And I 0:05:25.779 --> 0:05:27.310 literally was like, oh, I have to put Straight Up 0:05:27.350 --> 0:05:30.150 Now Tell Me on right now, right now. And I 0:05:30.210 --> 0:05:31.590 came home and turned it on and I was like, 0:05:31.710 --> 0:05:35.469 this is what I listened to in my CD Walkman. 0:05:35.890 --> 0:05:38.390 Forever Your Girl, the album. Yes. 0:05:38.870 --> 0:05:42.130 That was the first pop CD I ever owned. 0:05:42.510 --> 0:05:46.710 Like, yes. I mean, it just, and I was like, oh, 0:05:47.089 --> 0:05:51.240 this is what my inner child has been craving is 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:56.760 like a Paula Abdul dance party. Can we have one? Yes. 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.380 100%. That sounds like the dream. And I remember on 0:05:59.420 --> 0:06:02.680 the back of the CD, she was signed with Virgin Records, 0:06:02.700 --> 0:06:05.600 so it said Virgin. And I remember thinking like, oh, 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.920 that's an adult word. 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:17.060 Oh, my God. I'm obsessed. Great. We'll have like the 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.220 childhood slumber party of our dreams as adults. Feels like 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:21.720 a chic thing to do. Perfect. 0:06:22.180 --> 0:06:22.979 That sounds great. 0:06:23.430 --> 0:06:25.650 Yeah, you get to get in touch with your inner child, 0:06:25.670 --> 0:06:28.950 but also have a cocktail. And that is my perfect balance. 0:06:29.630 --> 0:06:35.039 I love that. Okay, I'm so, there's creativity, there's humor, 0:06:35.060 --> 0:06:38.560 there's all the things in our world, but the sort 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.700 of central thing of it, it's like so crazy to 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.000 interview one of my closest friends. I just, for the 0:06:45.020 --> 0:06:47.500 people at home, this is wild. I'm like, we're so serious. 0:06:49.550 --> 0:06:54.770 But the thing that, the book really helped illuminate for 0:06:54.850 --> 0:06:59.240 me and that made me feel so excited about getting 0:06:59.270 --> 0:07:02.659 to have conversations like this one with my close friends 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:06.500 who are creatives is it gave me a lot of 0:07:06.580 --> 0:07:10.760 space to reflect on chosen family. And I feel like 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.880 our friend group is pretty good at that in general, 0:07:14.420 --> 0:07:18.520 but there's something about sitting with a page and really 0:07:18.580 --> 0:07:21.820 getting the down through the layers, kind of to the 0:07:21.860 --> 0:07:27.150 center of what you feel about something. And I know 0:07:27.190 --> 0:07:29.890 what it means to me to have you all in 0:07:29.930 --> 0:07:32.850 my life, but I'm curious what chosen family means to you. 0:07:33.950 --> 0:07:35.950 Well, as an only child, which you and I can 0:07:36.010 --> 0:07:41.000 connect on deeply, you know, it was just always me 0:07:41.180 --> 0:07:45.400 and my parents and maybe a grandma from either side. 0:07:45.420 --> 0:07:53.630 And so... Chosen family is everything. Like those relationships that 0:07:53.730 --> 0:07:57.040 feel like family, that are your people. Like I personally 0:07:57.140 --> 0:07:59.480 need that because being an only child, as much as 0:07:59.540 --> 0:08:04.540 I loved the independence, had I not nurtured those relationships 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.820 and not hold those so dear at this point in 0:08:08.870 --> 0:08:12.550 my life at 41, I would be so lonely. 0:08:12.570 --> 0:08:12.650 Yeah. 0:08:14.710 --> 0:08:18.630 And I feel... There's a really unique experience about being 0:08:18.670 --> 0:08:22.930 an only child. My experience is that I feel like 0:08:22.970 --> 0:08:28.260 I walk through the world solo. And I think there's 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:32.740 some deep embedded fears that come with that. There's also 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:37.300 some great freedom that comes with that. But that feeling 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.110 of the people that I've brought into my life who 0:08:40.650 --> 0:08:45.740 are so additive, I feel so held by them. And 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:50.680 that is so important when you don't have biological brothers 0:08:50.740 --> 0:08:51.400 or sisters. 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:56.260 Yeah, it's really true. And I think, you know, to 0:08:56.300 --> 0:09:01.330 your point, I've been thinking about this a lot. You know, 0:09:01.850 --> 0:09:05.490 writing a book is such a journey inward. Your creative work, 0:09:06.130 --> 0:09:09.770 I know, comes with the same sort of adventure. And 0:09:12.110 --> 0:09:14.550 It's also been a really interesting thing for me to 0:09:14.610 --> 0:09:19.150 think about what is nurture, what is nature, not just 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:23.679 about family, but even my own brain. Like to realize 0:09:23.780 --> 0:09:27.280 why friends that feel like family have always been so 0:09:27.340 --> 0:09:32.120 important because I built a world of pseudo siblings. And 0:09:32.179 --> 0:09:35.670 to understand that for people who, which so many creatives are, 0:09:35.790 --> 0:09:39.220 people who are a little on the spectrum of neurodivergence, 0:09:39.300 --> 0:09:43.339 like you lean into ADHD, you lean, you know, that 0:09:43.380 --> 0:09:47.660 way I'd probably go farther in certain categories. Like I 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.590 learned that it's a common thing to kind of feel alone, 0:09:50.590 --> 0:09:54.429 even in a crowd. And so that's a really interesting 0:09:54.429 --> 0:09:59.100 thing you bring up that that you consciously consider how 0:09:59.140 --> 0:10:03.559 you move through the world and yeah, to, to figure 0:10:03.660 --> 0:10:06.360 out how to really build community and let people in 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:10.360 is kind of everything. It's like an antidote to that 0:10:10.420 --> 0:10:11.540 loneliness for sure. 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:11.640 Yeah. 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.800 It's, it's, it's, it's an action antidote to that. 0:10:17.970 --> 0:10:19.790 If I, you know, really want to call it like 0:10:19.830 --> 0:10:22.569 a core fear of just like being alone, even though 0:10:22.590 --> 0:10:25.199 I also thrive in my solo time in a way 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:25.520 that is. 0:10:26.020 --> 0:10:26.939 So important to me. 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.960 But there's also that underlying feeling that I've had my 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:31.300 whole life. 0:10:31.340 --> 0:10:33.350 I don't know if everyone feels that way, but that 0:10:33.370 --> 0:10:33.850 was mine. 0:10:35.309 --> 0:10:38.949 So you do have this book coming out and you 0:10:39.010 --> 0:10:43.240 do mention some things about the process of working on it. 0:10:43.490 --> 0:10:47.240 And I've had the luxury of getting to read it 0:10:47.460 --> 0:10:52.260 before it's been released. And so if you don't mind, okay. 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.959 Can I, you're flipping the script on me. 0:10:57.260 --> 0:11:00.620 I know this is your show, but, um, I would 0:11:00.740 --> 0:11:04.920 love to, I've prepared some questions that came up that were, 0:11:05.220 --> 0:11:06.980 you know, came up to me while I was reading and, 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.760 Would you mind if I took over? 0:11:10.780 --> 0:11:12.060 Yeah, great. 0:11:13.820 --> 0:11:15.240 Is that only child of me? 0:11:15.260 --> 0:11:16.960 Honestly, I love it. 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.060 But I do want to get into how you and 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:25.880 I met because what was so interesting was learning about 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:30.370 you in the book pre us meeting. So I remember 0:11:30.410 --> 0:11:34.950 it so vividly and is so quintessential Sophia. We were 0:11:35.170 --> 0:11:39.469 at a I am that girl dinner, which was an 0:11:39.590 --> 0:11:43.890 organization like bringing young women together. I remember what you 0:11:43.910 --> 0:11:44.480 were wearing. 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:45.840 You do? 0:11:46.179 --> 0:11:48.540 It was a red, tell me if this is, if 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.520 I'm recalling this, if you ever owned this, a red 0:11:51.540 --> 0:11:53.970 Eero leather jacket. Yeah. 0:11:53.990 --> 0:11:56.850 Oh my God. I wore it to death. You were 0:11:56.890 --> 0:11:57.490 wearing that. 0:11:58.070 --> 0:12:01.189 And I remember, so we're at this table, everyone's going 0:12:01.210 --> 0:12:05.590 around sharing and And you, in my head, you stood up, 0:12:05.710 --> 0:12:07.910 but I don't know if that was accurate. 0:12:08.590 --> 0:12:10.530 It was on the roof of that hotel, right? 0:12:11.090 --> 0:12:12.870 I don't even remember the location. 0:12:12.929 --> 0:12:13.829 That could be right. 0:12:14.150 --> 0:12:18.860 Yeah. But everything you said, it was just a full 0:12:18.910 --> 0:12:22.640 body nod. I was just like, yup, this person, they 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.940 know what they're talking about. They're like, I love them already. 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:30.250 And I think we exchanged numbers. Yes. From there. Do 0:12:30.620 --> 0:12:32.180 you have any recollection of this? 0:12:32.260 --> 0:12:32.780 Totally. 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:33.579 Yeah. 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:35.300 And that was it. It was one of those things 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.340 where everybody got to talk and then it sort of 0:12:38.660 --> 0:12:42.929 split into just chatter and dinner and past plates and conversation. 0:12:42.990 --> 0:12:47.890 And we just bonded immediately. And I've had... So many 0:12:47.950 --> 0:12:51.210 experiences like that over the years where showing up for 0:12:51.250 --> 0:12:53.829 something meaningful to me puts me in a room with 0:12:53.950 --> 0:12:57.470 other people that share the same sort of moral core 0:12:57.950 --> 0:13:00.890 and the best friendships form out of that. The best. 0:13:01.429 --> 0:13:03.390 And now a word from our sponsors who make this 0:13:03.410 --> 0:13:15.030 show possible. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. There are 0:13:15.110 --> 0:13:18.240 plenty of reasons we put off getting support, and for 0:13:18.260 --> 0:13:21.840 a lot of people, cost is one of them. With BetterHelp, 0:13:22.380 --> 0:13:26.580 insurance options may now be available nationwide, with an average 0:13:26.660 --> 0:13:31.620 copay for eligible members of just $ 23 per session. And 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.590 while we're reconsidering old assumptions, maybe there are a few 0:13:35.650 --> 0:13:39.390 others worth questioning too. Something I know is true for me, 0:13:39.750 --> 0:13:42.860 and so many women I know, is that we inherit 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:48.020 a whole lot of unwritten rules. We absorb things from 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:52.670 culture and society and messaging. And for us, a lot 0:13:52.710 --> 0:13:57.489 of them feel contradictory. Be ambitious, but don't be intimidating. 0:13:57.910 --> 0:14:00.570 Be there for everyone, but still make time for yourself 0:14:00.670 --> 0:14:04.790 and have a 12-step self-care routine. What? You're supposed to 0:14:04.830 --> 0:14:07.110 have it all together, but you can't look like you're 0:14:07.130 --> 0:14:11.090 trying too hard. It makes me feel like my head 0:14:11.170 --> 0:14:13.339 is spinning And the things we see in our feed 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:17.300 all day tend to reinforce some of them. I catch 0:14:17.340 --> 0:14:19.580 myself thinking, well, everyone else seems to be able to 0:14:19.620 --> 0:14:23.680 do this. Everyone else is keeping up and drinking all 0:14:23.700 --> 0:14:26.660 the water and checking off everything on their to-do list. 0:14:26.750 --> 0:14:29.650 And shouldn't I be able to also? I have to 0:14:29.710 --> 0:14:33.950 remind myself that it's not a zero-sum game and also 0:14:33.990 --> 0:14:38.410 that I can't compare my insides to everyone else's outsides 0:14:38.470 --> 0:14:41.630 that I'm seeing online. I would never want that for 0:14:41.650 --> 0:14:44.190 a friend, so why do I impose that kind of 0:14:44.230 --> 0:14:47.270 pressure on myself, you know? Those are the kinds of 0:14:47.340 --> 0:14:51.060 stories that I think therapy can really help us unpack 0:14:51.620 --> 0:14:56.240 and then rewrite, which is why I'm excited about this partnership. 0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.900 If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with 0:14:59.940 --> 0:15:04.470 more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have 0:15:04.490 --> 0:15:08.530 an average co-pay of just $ 23 per session with insurance. 0:15:09.330 --> 0:15:12.170 Don't have insurance or live outside the US? You can 0:15:12.210 --> 0:15:17.190 still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com slash 0:15:17.730 --> 0:15:24.080 permission dash project to explore your payment options. That's betterhelp, 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:29.240 H-E-L-P dot com slash permission dash project. 0:15:33.350 --> 0:15:36.010 So this, as I learned in the book, which was 0:15:36.050 --> 0:15:38.170 so interesting because I met you. 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:40.170 Post One Tree Hill. 0:15:40.740 --> 0:15:41.060 Yeah. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.740 So this must have been, to my calculations, like right 0:15:44.900 --> 0:15:46.260 after you moved back to LA. 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.420 I mean, yeah, like probably the following week. 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:58.940 And you talk about in the book how you made 0:15:58.980 --> 0:16:03.660 the decision to have your moniker for That new time 0:16:03.710 --> 0:16:05.170 back in LA was your year of yes. 0:16:05.210 --> 0:16:07.030 So I met you at year of yes. 0:16:07.250 --> 0:16:10.170 So I thought that was always your vibe. I thought 0:16:10.290 --> 0:16:14.190 that you were always the community gatherer, that everyone was 0:16:14.330 --> 0:16:17.330 always hanging at your house. So it was so interesting 0:16:18.010 --> 0:16:21.250 for me to learn of this being more of a 0:16:21.550 --> 0:16:26.900 conscious decision as a response to having been in Wilmington 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:27.660 for so long. 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:28.479 Yeah. 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:33.670 And so- Year of Yes, can you explain that to us? 0:16:34.110 --> 0:16:38.610 Yeah. So really, it sort of came out of, and 0:16:38.670 --> 0:16:42.080 I will say, I've always wound up being the host. 0:16:42.890 --> 0:16:47.320 But being in Wilmington for so long would mean, you know, 0:16:47.500 --> 0:16:51.040 I'd wrap in the middle of the night on a Friday, 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.220 which was technically like Saturday morning. Sometimes I'd go straight 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.300 to the airport to get on a 6 a.m. flight 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.640 to go home and be at someone's wedding if I could, 0:16:59.660 --> 0:17:03.120 or make it to someone's birthday. And then I'd turn 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.140 around and go back to the East Coast on Sunday. 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.899 So I tried really hard to be present, but I 0:17:09.050 --> 0:17:13.970 never had the kind of cadence of like an afternoon 0:17:14.230 --> 0:17:16.290 off in the city that I lived in where I 0:17:16.330 --> 0:17:18.630 could spontaneously go to lunch with my friends. I just 0:17:18.670 --> 0:17:22.170 never had that. And so when we wrapped the show 0:17:22.190 --> 0:17:28.760 and I came home, it was this opportunity to sort 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.280 of be at home with nothing to do. And it 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.619 was foreign to me. Maybe I'd have it for a 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.189 week here or there, but I'd never just had it. 0:17:37.150 --> 0:17:40.350 And Jenny had moved home with me. We'd taken this 0:17:40.390 --> 0:17:42.550 big road trip with one of our dearest friends from 0:17:42.609 --> 0:17:46.490 our show, Jane, after season eight ended, because we thought 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.280 that was going to be it for the show. So 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:49.840 we packed up my car, we put the dog in 0:17:49.859 --> 0:17:52.619 the car, and the three of us girls went on 0:17:52.660 --> 0:17:55.700 a 10-day cross-country road trip together. We had such a time. 0:17:56.730 --> 0:17:59.560 And then they brought us back for, you know, one 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.639 more sort of miniseries season, if you will. And it 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.500 was really interesting because it felt like we were ramping 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:09.600 into something and then I had to put it on 0:18:09.660 --> 0:18:13.010 pause again. And by the time I came home, you know, 0:18:13.030 --> 0:18:15.770 I think. When you live with one of your best 0:18:15.850 --> 0:18:19.870 friends and you also are both embarking on newness, you know, 0:18:19.930 --> 0:18:22.689 she was moving across the country. Now, of course, is 0:18:22.730 --> 0:18:24.750 a producer on all these amazing shows, but at the 0:18:24.810 --> 0:18:27.470 time was like trying to break into the industry at all. 0:18:28.290 --> 0:18:30.970 So she was, you know, terrified about the future. I 0:18:31.170 --> 0:18:34.790 was terrified about the future. All anyone had ever said 0:18:34.850 --> 0:18:36.830 to us was you're never going to have an opportunity 0:18:36.869 --> 0:18:40.610 like this again. You know, so you're going like, am 0:18:40.650 --> 0:18:42.270 I going to work? What's it going to look like? 0:18:42.790 --> 0:18:48.990 What's in store for me? And we both realized, like, 0:18:50.030 --> 0:18:52.469 it's okay to be afraid and it's okay to not 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.320 know what's coming and all of this is normal, but 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:01.960 feeling so gripped with anxiety that we're kind of paralyzed 0:19:02.020 --> 0:19:06.179 to make choices isn't helpful anymore. And I think it 0:19:06.220 --> 0:19:08.270 was such a blessing to have a friend going through 0:19:08.290 --> 0:19:11.890 it at the same time. I definitely make the best 0:19:12.450 --> 0:19:14.970 leaps and bounds in my own personal evolution when I 0:19:15.010 --> 0:19:16.870 have a cohort of people going through the same thing 0:19:16.930 --> 0:19:20.690 as me, because then I don't feel alone. But yeah, 0:19:20.730 --> 0:19:23.889 we just got to this place where we were like, okay, 0:19:24.460 --> 0:19:27.580 let's just say yes to everything. We get invited to something, 0:19:27.619 --> 0:19:30.929 let's go. You know, something random happens, let's do it. 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.920 There's a trip we can go on. We'll figure it 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:37.930 out later. Just say we're going. And it swung what 0:19:38.050 --> 0:19:43.920 was a lovely kind of life into something really extraordinary 0:19:43.980 --> 0:19:47.530 that felt really freeing in that season. 0:19:47.550 --> 0:19:51.179 And it was so contagious, as you write in the book, 0:19:51.940 --> 0:19:53.960 how it really caught on. And I was, you know, 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.180 I was one of those people who was like, that's 0:19:58.220 --> 0:19:59.409 the mantra. Let's do it. 0:19:59.420 --> 0:20:00.300 We're doing it. 0:20:01.300 --> 0:20:04.760 I just remember us always writing, like doodling yes on 0:20:04.780 --> 0:20:07.719 things and just going full tilt with it. 0:20:07.820 --> 0:20:08.940 So I love that so much. 0:20:09.290 --> 0:20:14.620 How about, cut to now, 2026, is there a mantra 0:20:15.140 --> 0:20:20.640 or sort of like a type of like thought process 0:20:20.660 --> 0:20:22.280 that you are approaching things now? 0:20:23.340 --> 0:20:28.580 Oh man. I think, I don't know that I've settled 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:33.480 on a mantra, but I think what I have finally 0:20:33.619 --> 0:20:41.810 learned is to separate societal or external expectation from my 0:20:42.090 --> 0:20:49.720 own joy. You know, there's such a culture of raising 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.640 women to be good, but good for who? You know, 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.600 to be a good girl, but in what way? You know, 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:05.030 does goodness mean serving bad systems or patriarchy or just 0:21:05.090 --> 0:21:08.760 a lack of agency even sometimes for ourselves. And I 0:21:08.900 --> 0:21:14.280 think for me, the place that I'm in is really 0:21:14.380 --> 0:21:18.470 feeling like I can separate the two. And by the way, 0:21:18.970 --> 0:21:22.390 that doesn't mean I've solved the problem. I'm not, you know, 0:21:22.450 --> 0:21:27.139 totally detached. I absolutely sob when I get harassed on 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.820 the internet and I, you know, I feel nervous. And 0:21:30.859 --> 0:21:33.679 of course I want people to know me for who 0:21:33.740 --> 0:21:35.820 I really am and like me and like my work. 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:39.720 And I want people to be nice. Sure to me, 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.840 but to other people too, like I'm sensitive, but I, 0:21:44.770 --> 0:21:48.890 I also understand there is that and then there is this. 0:21:48.970 --> 0:21:54.450 There's a self here that I need to pay attention 0:21:54.510 --> 0:21:57.820 to in a way that I don't think I always 0:21:57.859 --> 0:22:01.660 knew how to do before. And how are you doing that? 0:22:01.740 --> 0:22:06.220 I try to make sure I'm checking in because what 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:10.770 I've learned is that something in my body or something 0:22:10.830 --> 0:22:14.770 in my mind... over and over again through my life 0:22:14.830 --> 0:22:16.990 had been trying to communicate with me and I just 0:22:17.030 --> 0:22:21.570 wasn't listening. And I think, you know, really to horseshoe 0:22:21.609 --> 0:22:26.340 it to the beginning of the conversation, to write a book, 0:22:26.670 --> 0:22:32.160 to sort of go through that mental exercise and then 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.600 the breakdowns that like come along with it, it's a 0:22:35.700 --> 0:22:39.040 really isolating experience and it required me to kind of 0:22:39.140 --> 0:22:43.129 hibernate more than I like to. I like to be 0:22:43.170 --> 0:22:45.130 with my people. You know that. Like, I'd have people 0:22:45.190 --> 0:22:46.280 over every night if I could. 0:22:46.420 --> 0:22:47.680 Yeah. 0:22:47.700 --> 0:22:52.340 And I really had to just be alone with my 0:22:52.380 --> 0:22:56.980 computer a lot. And I also had to trust that, like, 0:22:57.050 --> 0:22:59.330 my friends are waiting on the other side, excited that 0:22:59.369 --> 0:23:00.210 I'm coming out. 0:23:01.310 --> 0:23:01.610 You know? 0:23:01.630 --> 0:23:01.870 Yeah. 0:23:02.630 --> 0:23:07.570 Other than hibernating with your laptop, was there any sort of, like, 0:23:08.010 --> 0:23:13.550 daily rituals you had or– non-negotiables that you had in 0:23:13.950 --> 0:23:14.780 the process? 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.439 Wow. I want to be a daily ritual person so bad. 0:23:20.020 --> 0:23:24.419 I feel like I would need someone to move in 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:26.970 with me and make me do that. 0:23:27.270 --> 0:23:29.310 Full body doubling experience. 0:23:29.570 --> 0:23:33.109 Yeah. Like I need somebody to say, this is what 0:23:33.150 --> 0:23:36.790 we're doing today. You know, in my life now, it's 0:23:36.810 --> 0:23:40.609 like you've got two hyper creative, interested in everything women 0:23:40.650 --> 0:23:43.050 under one roof. Like neither of us is the person 0:23:43.590 --> 0:23:47.010 who does that thing. Also, our schedules are never the 0:23:47.030 --> 0:23:48.070 same on any given day. 0:23:48.730 --> 0:23:49.489 I remember when all the. 0:23:49.470 --> 0:23:51.129 Sleep research was coming out and they were like, you 0:23:51.150 --> 0:23:52.670 should go to bed at the same time and wake 0:23:52.710 --> 0:23:54.090 up at the same time. I was like, has anyone 0:23:54.130 --> 0:23:56.030 ever been on a set? Like, I can't do that. 0:23:58.030 --> 0:24:03.960 But I think what I learned was you can't wait 0:24:04.900 --> 0:24:09.540 to feel like you're in flow. Sometimes you have to 0:24:09.619 --> 0:24:11.840 start the movement for the flow to come. 0:24:11.859 --> 0:24:12.580 Yeah. 0:24:12.680 --> 0:24:14.960 And that was hard for me because I'm very used 0:24:15.020 --> 0:24:18.310 to being hit with inspiration and firing off, you know, 0:24:18.350 --> 0:24:21.910 an Instagram essay or whatever, starting an op-ed and then 0:24:21.990 --> 0:24:28.730 it's done. And this required much more diligent repetition. Something 0:24:28.790 --> 0:24:35.010