1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. Congresswoman Jane Harmon was 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: a leader in Congress, where she served nine terms representing 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: California's thirty sixth district, where she became a leading figure 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: on security issues as a former ranking member of the 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: House Intelligence Committee. After she left Congress in twenty eleven, 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: she joined the bipartisan Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: as its first female Director, President and CEO, now Distinguished 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: Fellow and President Emerita of the Wilson Center. She is 9 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: an internationally recognized authority in US and global security issues, 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: foreign relations, and lawmaking. Her new book, Insanity Defense, Why 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: our failure to confront hard national security problems makes us 12 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: less safe, details how four administrations have failed to confront 13 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: some of the toughest national security policy issues and suggest 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: achievable fixes that can move us toward a safer future. 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to welcome my former colleague on the Democratic 16 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: side of the aisle and a great friend, Congresswoman Jane Harman. Jane, welcome, 17 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me. You know, as I welcome you, 18 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to point out to our listeners that you 19 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: were a Democrat and I was a Republican, and yet 20 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: we still managed to talk and get things done, something 21 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: that is really missing in Washington today. Reaching all the 22 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: way back to your executive branch years with Jimmy Carter, 23 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: what do you think you learn from that? Well, if 24 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: I could let me go back five years before that, 25 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: when I came to work in the United States Senate 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: and ultimately became chief counsel to a California Senator named 27 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: John Tunney and worked on the Senate Judiciary Committee. I 28 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: in fact, I was chief counsel of the Subcommittee on 29 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: Constitutional Rights at a time when Joe Biden came to 30 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: the Senate as a young senator. What I learned from 31 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: all these things is that it really matters when people 32 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: work together. And I saw it in the Senate in 33 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: the early seventies. I saw the fights over civil rights. 34 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,399 Speaker 1: I saw the end of the Vietnam War. I saw 35 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: Watergate and saw that. Then I saw Jimmy Carter, who 36 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: had no Washington experience, come from Georgia and bring his 37 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: homegrown team with him, and I saw the ways that 38 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: didn't work as well as it could have either, and 39 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: he made some good decisions, like adding human rights as 40 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: a plank of our foreign policy. I'm sure you agree 41 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: with that. He did the Panama Canal, which I thought 42 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: was a good thing, but he badly underestimated the resources 43 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: we would need to free our hostages from Iran, and 44 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: that was a catastrophe and something I think Obama learned 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: when we went in after Osama Bin Laden in a 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: very successful raid almost twenty years later. Did that Executive 47 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: Branch service? What your appetite for the Security Committee, because 48 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: it's you've had an amazing record of armed services, intelligence, 49 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: homeland security. Did you decide that was your focus? Well, 50 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: I was always interested in international issues. Right after graduating 51 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: law school, I spent a year in Geneva, Switzerland as 52 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: the deputy to the head of International Affairs at the 53 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: World Council of Churches and it was fascinating. It was 54 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 1: during the Vietnam War, and so in the Carter administration 55 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: I was Deputy Cabinet Secretary. I wouldn't say I focused 56 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: on international issues much. But right after I left the 57 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: Carter administration, I became Special counsel to the Defense Department, 58 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: and that's when I started really learning, and I think 59 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: the clincher I was elected to represent what I called 60 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: the Aerospace Center of the Universe, where most of our 61 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: intelligence satellites are made. This is in the Los Angeles area, 62 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: just south of Santa Monica. It's called the South Bay. 63 00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: Have many Triple PhDs who work on satellites, and it's 64 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Air Force Base, which doesn't look like 65 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: an air Force base, which is that basically the satellite 66 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: and rocket purchaser of material for our defense Department. So 67 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: that's when I really learned, and I wanted to be 68 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: on the Intelligence Committee out of the box. But Tom Foley, 69 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: then the Speaker of the House, said I couldn't because 70 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: although it's a leadership committee appointed by the Speaker and 71 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: the minority leader, he owed the one slot to somebody 72 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: senior to me from California, and her name is Nancy Pelosi. 73 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: So I didn't get it, and it took me six 74 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: years to get a slot on intelligence, but that was 75 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: the best fit for me. You have a lot of 76 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: these relationships between Biden and Pelosi go back virtually a lifetime. True, 77 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: that's true. Which is what happens. I think is keep persevering. 78 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: So when you look on where we are today, and 79 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of appropriate that we're taping this when we 80 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: are faced with the whole series of I think, very 81 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: tough decisions. And you talk about insanity defense, which, by 82 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: the way, I really think is exactly right. I mean, 83 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: I think your core principle, these huge bureaucracies, and they 84 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: mindlessly are going over again and again what they already 85 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: know how to do because it makes them feel good, 86 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: but they're hiding from really big threats and really big issues. 87 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: I really liked you the title. What led you to 88 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: decide to write it? Well? I left Congress in twenty 89 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: eleven because the partisanship drove me crazy, and I was 90 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: offered a job to succeed Lee Hamilton, one of the 91 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: giants in the Congress over many years who co chaired 92 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: the nine to eleven commission. To succeed Lee Hamilton as 93 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: the first woman, they had the Wilson Center, which is 94 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: a bipartisan oasis, and when I got there, one of 95 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: the things the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars focuses 96 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: on is books. And I saw a lot of other 97 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: people writing books, including some of the staff, and I thought, oh, 98 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 1: I want to write a book. And it took me 99 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: a while to decide what kind of book I wanted 100 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: to write. I didn't want to write a book as 101 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: the first woman in the room. While that has been 102 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: through much of my career, that isn't how I think 103 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: of things. You know, I'm certainly aware of my gender, 104 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: but I try to be the best qualified person in 105 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: the room, not just because I'm female. And so that 106 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: wasn't it. I didn't want to write about my childhood. 107 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: I wanted to write a policy memoir, and it really 108 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: took a while to get it focused and then to 109 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: do it. And finally the quarantine, which has been horrible, 110 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: much worse for other people's families than for mine, it 111 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: was wonderful for me in one respect, which is it 112 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: gave me real time at home to sit in a 113 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: room and think this through. And the title, since you 114 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: commented that you like it, doesn't come from me. It 115 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: came from my youngest of four children, my daughter, who 116 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: when she heard my original title, mother, that is boring. 117 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: What you're writing about is insanity defense And so the 118 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: good news is that we have kids smarter than we are, 119 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: and she was very helpful. I think it was Einstein 120 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: has said doing the same thing over and over again 121 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity. 122 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: I was aware of this because with President Clinton we 123 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: created the Heart Rudman Commission, and when I stepped down 124 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: and speaker, he was very generous and invited me to 125 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: serve on it. So I spent three years looking at it. 126 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: And we really do have, as you point out in 127 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: your book, a system that was structured in nineteen forty seven, 128 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: and we have this huge bureaucracy of very smart people 129 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: who cleverly defend what they're already doing. And it seems 130 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: to me that that's an enormous problem. I mean, you've 131 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: looked at it now for literally almost a generation, and 132 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: you know how really hard it is to get the 133 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: system to open up and to get it to think differently. 134 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: As you view all this and as you've written about it, 135 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: I mean, what is your gut feeling about how big 136 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: the crisis is for our very survival. Well, let's put 137 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: another piece on the table, and that is the United 138 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: States Congress, which also has a committee system rooted in 139 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, and people fight to the death to 140 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: chair committees and won't give up an inch of jurisdiction. 141 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: So that's part of the problem too. The nineteen forty 142 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: seven reference has to do with the fact that the 143 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: National Security Act that we have still on the books, 144 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: passed in nineteen forty seven, and it created the big 145 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: pieces of our defense and intelligence system. It was in 146 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: place on nine to eleven, which was a massive security failure. 147 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: It was in place when we produced the very wrong 148 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: intelligence on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And so 149 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: after that, some of us in Congress on a bipartisan basis. 150 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I worked very closely with Pete Huxter, whom 151 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: I know, you know, who was chairman of the House 152 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: Intel Committee at the time I was the ranking member, 153 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: and whom I'm still in touch with, who's just completed 154 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: his term as ambassador. And we decided we were going 155 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: to change this. And boy, oh boy, was that a 156 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: steep hill to climb. This is the point Congress was 157 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: dug in. Duncan Hunter, then the chairman of the House 158 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: on Services Committee, opposed us. A guy named Dick Cheney, 159 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: former House member who was at the time Vice President 160 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: of the United States, opposed us. But on the other hand, 161 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: we had some momentum going on, and we had friends 162 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: in the Senate, Susan Collins and Joe Lieberman, who at 163 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: the time were the Republican chair of the Senate Poland Committee, 164 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: and Joe Lieberman, I think was then an independent, he 165 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: had been a Democrat ranking member on Senate Homeland. So 166 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,239 Speaker 1: we did it, and we got through all the obstacles, 167 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: and George W. Bush signed our bill, and then making 168 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: it happen another nightmare. Rearranging deck shares is really hard 169 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: in government and in Congress. And still the Office of 170 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: the Director of National Intelligence, which I think is well 171 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 1: run right now by somebody who happens to be a woman, 172 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: Aubril Hayes, first woman to do it, is functioning well. 173 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: But it was a slot. So your point is right, 174 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: Newe that getting government to give up turf and to reorganize, 175 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: both on the executive side and the congressional side is 176 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: a gigantic challenge. In the last administration, we're trying to 177 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: get a couple of very specific things done involving five 178 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: G and the Chinese firm Huawei. And you could get 179 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: the president to say yes, you could get the presidency 180 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: for staff tissue and instruction. You could get the sectar 181 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: defense to sort of say yes, and then somewhere inside 182 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: the machine there'd be a mid level bureaucrat go well, 183 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: I don't know that we need to do this, and 184 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: it was a great case study. But one of my 185 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: favorites is a book and TV series called Yes Minister 186 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: and Yes Prime Minister by Antony Jabob the British senior 187 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: civil service, and I have concluded that we have nothing 188 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: to learn from them, that our civil service is fully 189 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: as capable of undermining any administration in every direction. I 190 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: first encountered this when I was a freshman in nineteen 191 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: seventy nine and Carter was president, and Carter was trying 192 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: to slim down the defense system, and he had designed 193 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: a proposal for the Navy. As you know, he was 194 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: an Annapolis grad, and he had designed a real focus 195 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: on the North Atlantic and being able to keep open 196 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: the lines of supply in case we had to reinforce Europe. 197 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: And so I'm over as an innocent young freshman having 198 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: coffee with the Chief of Naval Operations at the time, 199 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: who just hated Carter. He said, do you realize that 200 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: I have had to uphold the two hundred years strategy 201 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: of the US Navy? And I thought to myself, wait 202 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: a second, I'm a freshman congressman being told by the 203 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: top person the Navy that he's methodically undermining the commander 204 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: in chief. And it was just sort of the beginning 205 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: of my introduction to the world as it really is, 206 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: versus the theoretical world that we're dealing with. But assuming 207 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: you and I could magically get the attention of the 208 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: larger system, and I agree with you, that has to 209 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: include large parts of the executive branch beyond the Defense Department, 210 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: and it has to include the Congress and enough members 211 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: who actually understand what they're doing that you can sustain it. 212 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: What would you have them focus on. Carter was in 213 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: the Navy and he studied under the legendary Admiral Rickover 214 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: and that was a big part of his history, and 215 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: I think that credential helped him be elected president. He 216 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: had very minimal foreign policy experience, but the navy career 217 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: was one that he played very artfully. Oh and he 218 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: was from your state of Georgia. He once told me 219 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: that he knocked on every door in Georgia. I was 220 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: a college teacher and I knew Governor Carter pretty well. 221 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: He was a very active reform governor. It's interesting and 222 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: a creative guy, but he couldn't make much happen. Again, 223 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: it's the point that we're both making. There is just 224 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: enormous pushback in the bureaucracy and the tragedy newt is. 225 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: First of all, what do we need in this dangerous 226 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: world where we just had a massive ransomware attack that 227 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: could have crippled half of our distribution of fuel in 228 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: the United States fortunately hasn't yet. But what do we need? 229 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: We need protection against current and future threats. We don't 230 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: need investments and legacy systems to fight World War two 231 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: or the Cold War, and pulling away from that is 232 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: extremely hard. I actually think we're doing better, and I'm 233 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: not giving all the credit to Joe Biden. Some of 234 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: the things were started in the Trump administration. Some of 235 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: the things were starting before that. But the point of 236 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: my book is that we still as of this minute. 237 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: I guess two weeks ago we got a foreign policy 238 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: strategy from Joe Biden, but over four administrations, we really 239 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: didn't have one. After the co War, and we paid 240 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: a huge price for that. We were very transactional and 241 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: reacted to each crisis on its own terms instead of 242 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: and this is something you would applaud I know you do, 243 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: because you're a big thinker. Instead of articulating what America's 244 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: role is in this new world that's much more dangerous, 245 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: much more complex, multipolar. Were not this soul superpower and 246 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: we weren't. We thought we were, but we weren't in 247 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: the nineties. And what in our role? What do we 248 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: want it to be? And how do we generate public 249 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: support for this? And how do we fund it? Whatever 250 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: it is? And those are questions that we didn't answer 251 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: well for four presidencies. No, I think that's right, and 252 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: I think that answering them at the sort of presidential level, 253 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: and then answering them at the congressional level, and then 254 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: answering them in the bureaucracy each is a huge journey. 255 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: Assuming that the process is underway, what would you have 256 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: them focus on when you think about the new threats 257 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: or the degree to which we have to change our perspective, 258 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: what are you really talking about? Well, again, I'm starting 259 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: with the premise that we want a foreign policy that 260 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: Americans support, And I'm sure we'll discuss Afghanistan in a moment, 261 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: but I would remind you that it was Donald Trump, 262 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: not Joe Biden, who said we need to end the 263 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: military mission in Afghanistan, which I agree with in spite 264 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: of the enormous dangers of doing it. I think the 265 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: articulation of this interim national security strategy by Joe Biden, 266 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: expressed by our Secretary of State Tony Lincoln is very interesting. Shorthand. 267 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: You know, they call it foreign policy for the middle class. 268 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: I call it taking the foreign out of foreign policy, 269 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: making it relevant to average Americans. And they think, and 270 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: I agree that in addition to the massive threats of 271 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: China and Russia, they are threats, and they were identified 272 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: in the Trump administration, there also are other threats, including 273 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: domestic terrorism. We're seeing that all over the place. Sadly, 274 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about right wing extremism, but I'm 275 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: talking about domestic terrorism. But there is right wing extremism, 276 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: domestic terrorism, climate and this worldwide pandemic which we should 277 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: have been able to predict, should have been able to 278 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: plan for, and it has been catastrophic in terms of 279 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: loss of life and loss of jobs. I think that's right. 280 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: On the one hand, you have global challenges that you 281 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: could think of as threats, although sometimes there's just things 282 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: that exist. There's no person hidden behind the wall. For example, 283 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: on climate change, it's a condition you've got to deal 284 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: with irrespective of what you think the mechanisms are. But 285 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: part of what I guess concerns me is when you 286 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: get down to it, you do get into these cutting 287 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: edge yes, no kind of things. And Afghanistan's a good 288 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: one I think to chat about because I have very 289 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: mixed feelings about it. It's now the longest war we've had. 290 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: I don't see any evidence that we're actually winning. I 291 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: think we're holding our own I don't think despite having 292 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: fought Vietnam and then come back and fought Afghanistan, I 293 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: don't think we have a strategy where that somebody can 294 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: say to you, if we do ABC and D for 295 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: the next eight years, this will happen. I think what 296 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: we have is a long holding operation in which you 297 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: could argue that Taliban has done about as well as 298 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: the local Afghan government, And if you had to bet, 299 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: I think you'd agree that the government we support would 300 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 1: have a very hard time surviving unless we're very careful. 301 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: And now we pull out and looking at this whole 302 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: period where we've both been active as public figures, so 303 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: to some marginal extent we both own a piece of 304 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: this thing. How do you both assess up to now 305 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: and what would you do going forward? Okay, well, I 306 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: agree with every single word you just said. Imagine that 307 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: I do. Right after nine to eleven, every member of 308 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 1: Congress House and sent it, with one exception, Barbara Lee 309 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: of Berkeley, California, voted to authorize the use of military 310 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: force against those who attacked us. They weren't all in Afghanistan, 311 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: but most of them were, and we were quite successful 312 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: moving against them. Not totally successful. You know. We had 313 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: a couple of colligenes which sadly allowed ohs have been 314 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: laden to escape later to be captured and killed, which 315 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: was a good move. By the way. I think we 316 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: went in for a mission against those who attacked us. 317 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: Then what happened mission creep? I mean, just exactly what 318 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: we're talking about. We didn't have an articulated strategy for 319 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: the day after or As my very good friend Dave 320 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: Petray has always asked, how will this end? And I 321 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: recently had an argument with him. It's very civil because 322 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: we're very good friends, and I think people should argue civilly. 323 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: I respect that about this. He supports keeping in a 324 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: small number of but he also supported the big surge, 325 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: which I had my doubts about. Both in Afghanistan and 326 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: Iraq and what have I concluded basically what you said, 327 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,479 Speaker 1: that there are no good alternatives, that the only issue 328 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: is which is the least bad alternative? And I think 329 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: that the articulation that first came from Trump but now 330 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: is coming from Biden that we should end the military 331 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: mission is right now. Of course, I read about this 332 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: attack on the Afghans school the other day, this horrific thing, 333 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: killing thirty girls and wounding fifty others. Deliberate attack on 334 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: these young women who are trying to build a future, 335 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: probably by the Taliban. I don't think they've acknowledged doing 336 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 1: it yet, but who else would do it? Three bombs 337 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: at any rate that's dreadful. Would are staying there with 338 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: twenty five hundred troops change that result in six months? 339 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I don't. And the Afghans have 340 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: an army of three hundred thousand people. We've tried to 341 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: train them. Again, Dave Patreus and I've argued about this. 342 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: He thinks they're reasonably well trained. I don't from any 343 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: evidence I see. We've put trillions of dollars in there, 344 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: We've lost thousands of American lives, and there have been 345 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: thousands of Afghan lives lost, and so now what I 346 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: think we changed the mission, and we were beginning to 347 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: change it during the Trump administration, and he did have 348 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: an able diplomat, Zalo Khalilzad who's Afghan born, negotiating with 349 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: the Taliban as its off Oyanzall is still on the job, 350 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: which I think is good. I'm high on him. But 351 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: I think what we do now is we end the 352 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: military mission by nine to eleven. I think that was 353 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: a good choice of date two decades in, and we 354 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: still provide training assistance for the Afghan troops and we 355 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: surge intelligence resources. We also work with the neighborhood. There 356 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: are big changes going on in the Middle East, some 357 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: of them started by Donald Trump, where sunny governments are 358 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: talking to Israel and where there could be a realignment, 359 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: including Iran. Sunny governments are also talking to Iran that 360 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: would in many ways box in the government of Afghanistan 361 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: in ways that would be more constructive. And last point 362 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: I would make, I've heard Tony Blinken say this, and 363 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: I agree. He asked, does the Taliban want to be 364 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: a pariah forever? Just maybe there's a possibility that if 365 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: we shake this thing up enough, one we end an 366 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: endless war, and two we actually give an opportunity to 367 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: the Afghan people to shape a government that they haven't 368 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: been able to shape, including women, that would be much 369 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: better for them. So I'm curious. One of the things 370 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: that hit me recently, because we spend a fair amount 371 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: of our time tracking China, what if the kar and 372 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: Afghan government decides that it's only survival strategy is an 373 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: alliance with China and which it gives them mineral rights 374 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: in return for their bringing sort of as we leave 375 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: Chinese military mission arrives. To what extent does that actually 376 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: matter to us? Well, it wouldn't be good, obviously, and 377 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: I know you would agree with that. But I think 378 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: in the net, we have to assess where our biggest 379 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: threats are, and I would argue that some of them 380 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: are at home, and certainly China in broader terms is 381 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: a threat. But if we say, oh, China's in Afghanistan, 382 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: let's imagine, I don't know what the chances of that are. 383 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: Let's make a big fuss about that, and we take 384 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: our eye off of the larger confrontation with China, which 385 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: certainly includes five G But at any rate, I would 386 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: think about it differently. I was just on a Caribbean 387 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: island briefly on a short vacation, and guess what. The 388 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: airport was built by the Chinese. The Chinese are building 389 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: a huge mission on this island where all we have 390 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: is a post office box. And we do have a 391 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: mission in New York in connection with the UN. But 392 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: Chinese outreach is happening in the world. Should we just 393 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: make a big fuss about each place or should we 394 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: have a strategy where we outcompete China, which I think 395 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: we could have and play on our terms, not on 396 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: their terms. I do think it's a challenge that's going 397 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: to be with us for probably the rest of our lifetime, certainly, 398 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: and maybe longer. Don't let me take a slight detour, 399 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: because you did just spend ten years in one of 400 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: the great intellectual think tanks we have in this country, 401 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: the Woodrow Wilson Institute. What was that like? You've been 402 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: very generous and allowed me to come over several times 403 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: and a chat with people, and I was always impressed 404 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: with the extraordinary quality of the people that end up 405 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: at the Wilson Center. But so, what was that kind 406 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: of experience like, well, thanks for asking that. It was wonderful. 407 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: And by the way, I think you came once with 408 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: respect to one of your books, and then you came 409 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: back to get brief by some of our experts on China, 410 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: one of whom is the legendary Stapleton Roy, who was 411 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: ambassador in China, actually raised son of missionaries in China 412 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: and very involved in the opening up of China around 413 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:28,959 Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon. Wilson is a nonpartisan institute. 414 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: That's what I loved about it. Lindsay Graham called it 415 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: a safe political space. I also loved that about it, 416 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: and I was scrupulous about making sure that we reflected 417 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: civilly and respectfully all points of view when we discussed issues. 418 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: I loved that, to be fair. Looking back at my career, 419 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: even though I spent nine terms in Congress, I'm more 420 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: interested in policy than politics, and I care about good policy, 421 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: and in this book of mine, I recommend some policy 422 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: fixes that I think could work, including a few suggestions 423 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: about fixing Congress, where I think there is a broken 424 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: business model where each side blames the other side for 425 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: not solving the problem, because if they work together, they 426 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: would be bipartisan, and then that would cause whoever did 427 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: that to have a primary challenge. And sadly, I think 428 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: getting reelected is now more important than putting the country first, 429 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: which just breaks my heart. But anyway, so back to Wilson, 430 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: we really explored a lot of the most important global issues. 431 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: We certainly did stuff on five G. We have a 432 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: science and technology program that is superb. We run three 433 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: schools there for congressional staff. When I was a staffer, 434 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: there was nothing out there, but we train in cyber 435 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence and foreign policy and we've had over a 436 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: thousand staffers bipartisan come down. It's just a mile from 437 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: the capital, and among other things, to get to know 438 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: each other. I mean, part of this monster situation we're 439 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: in is people don't know each other and they're terrified 440 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: of talking to someone in the other party, and so 441 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: we're trying to blow this up bottom up, get the 442 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: staff to know each other, and then hope it will 443 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 1: trickle up and get the members to know each other. 444 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: That's great. So you must have an unusual level of 445 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: patients to get programs like that to work. That's funny. 446 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: I have no patience. I mean, I'm sorry I'm youthful, 447 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: I'm active, I have high energy, and I'm impatient. And 448 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: I think you're pretty impatient too. But you undertake projects 449 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: absolutely require patients. They also require relentlessness. I don't take 450 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,239 Speaker 1: no for an answer. I mean, we're going to do this, 451 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: We're going to make it happen. I also have, as 452 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: you do, an enormous acquaintance in this town of members, 453 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: former members, executive branch types that I call on to 454 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: be helpful. Example, there's a fairly new book on James Baker, 455 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: who was the extraordinary first Texan country club type who 456 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: morphed into this more extraordinary best friend alter ego to 457 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: George hw Bush and others. Peter Baker know the relationship 458 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,479 Speaker 1: to him, but Peter was a scholar at the Wilson 459 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: Center and with his wife Susan Glasser, wrote this amazing biography. 460 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: So we were going to have it on at the 461 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: Wilson Center and I said, well, I want Jim Baker. 462 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: I want to interview Jim Baker about all this, and 463 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: I got him. I called him and he had been 464 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: on the Wilson Center Board, which is a presidentially appointed 465 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: board in the early nineties, and I know him and 466 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: he did it, and you know, we sort of talked 467 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: about all the incidents in the book, and that made 468 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: it so much fun for me. But I think maybe 469 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: fun for our diverse audiences too. That's interesting. He had 470 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: some set of skills and insights which I don't quite 471 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: know how he acquired them. But he's really remarkable. The 472 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: book doesn't explain that. I mean, here he is this 473 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: country club guy who tries to emulate what his father. 474 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: Once goes to Princeton, joins the right clubs, and all 475 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: the rest of it. Wife dies very tragically in her thirties, 476 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden marries someone else. But he 477 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: becomes friends with George H. W. Bush in his country 478 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: club and their tennis buddies. And then George Bush gets 479 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: into politics and Baker comes with and there's a scene 480 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: in the book where Bush forty one says, Baker, you 481 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: got to come with me to Washington, and he said, well, 482 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: there's a problem with that. I'm not a Republican, and 483 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: I mean, really it was just astounding, and then he 484 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: is I would say most people would agree probably up there, 485 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: maybe singular, but certainly in the top few of people 486 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: who could make things happen in governor on our side, 487 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: I think of him as a comparable to Kissinger or Schultz. 488 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean people who just somehow got the magic and 489 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: understood how to do it. I totally agree. And Kissinger, 490 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: by the way, is only ninety eight this month. I mean, hey, 491 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: his name is on the door of our institute at Wilson. 492 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: It's called the Kissinger Institute for China and the US. 493 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: He's still active there. He and I sat next to 494 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: each other for ten years on the Defense Policy Board. 495 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: After I left Congress, I was appointed to the policy 496 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: boards for the Director of National Intelligence, the CIA, the 497 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: Defense Department, and the State Department. But Henry and I 498 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: sat next to each other. And in the last couple 499 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: months of the Trump administration, case you missed this news, 500 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: we've read in the newspaper that the Trump administration had 501 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: decided that eleven out of thirteen members of this board 502 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: were terminated, and among them were Madeline Albright, Henry Kissinger, 503 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: Eric Canter, and me go figure. I think it was 504 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: a search for mediocrity. They said, if you're above a 505 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: certain IQ level, you can't be here. It's the politics 506 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: of these Internet seen systems where you can't quite figure 507 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: out who's really in charge, and you can't quite figure 508 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: out what they're really trying to accomplish. I'm watching with 509 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: similar interest in terms of who Biden appoints then whether 510 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: he brings back sort of mainstream Republicans as part of 511 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: the mix, or whether it comes overwhelmingly liberal Democrats. Well, 512 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: I hope he does. I mean, there's a guy who 513 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: knows everybody. I mean, he's invested forty five years in 514 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: this or more almost fifty, and I doubt there's anyone 515 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: he doesn't know. I'm very pleased that he's meeting with 516 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: six Republicans in tough states about infrastructure, and I hope 517 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: that that bill is a bipartisan It will be better 518 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: if it is bipartison. Yeah. One of the arguments I 519 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: lost in the early stages of the Trump administration. I 520 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: tried to convince them that if they would open with 521 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: a bipartisan infrastructure bill rather than focusing on repealing Obamacare, 522 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: that the tonal difference for the entire rest of the 523 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: administration would be amazing, totally, right, totally, And they didn't, 524 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: And they didn't repeat Obamacare, oh, by the way, and 525 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: they didn't get anything done on infrastrar Yeah, but they 526 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: for some reason, both Ryan and McConnell were adamant that 527 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: they had to do Obamacare. I still don't get it. 528 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: And I remember a funny story. I invited Paul Ryan, 529 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: whom I like and who had a pretty tough time 530 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: as Speaker of the House and not that he missed it, 531 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: to come to the Wilson Center. He said, I can't 532 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: do it, and I said, well why, Paul? He said, 533 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: I just hated Woodrow Wilson and I said, Paul wood 534 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: Wilson's been dead for a hundred years. I'm inviting you. 535 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: He said, well, I really like you. And he didn't 536 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: do it. Nah, Paul's a very smart guy, so I 537 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: probably shouldn't say this, but that's a wonderful example of 538 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: somebody who's mired in the past. I mean, you have 539 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: to wonder what he was really thinking. Although I'm both 540 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: a big fan of Wilson and I think that it's 541 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,959 Speaker 1: interesting to watch his various weaknesses come out. He's a 542 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: complex personality. Guess what are you so am? I I 543 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: wasn't your biggest fan when you became speaker. That's in 544 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: the book. I mean why because I felt the Congress 545 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: became more partisan and I did not like that. And 546 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: I represented a lean Republican district and I very much 547 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: wanted it to continue to be bipartisan, I know, and 548 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: the challenge we faced, frankly, was that we could never 549 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: win the majority if it remained bipartisan. And we've been 550 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: out of power for forty years. Do you represent a 551 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: district that we really thought we should own and you 552 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: were so popular back home that it was just hopeless. 553 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: There are those moments in life. I remember there was 554 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: a New Yorker cartoon one time. The guy had on 555 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: his desk an inbox and outbox in a two hard box. Well, 556 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: in the book, there's some pictures in the middle, and 557 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: one of them is a billboard that was put up 558 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: in my district for my first reelection. That's when you 559 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: came to power, and many marginal Democrats like me lost, 560 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: but I didn't lose. But on the billboard it says 561 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: Republicans for asked us why and listed on the billboard 562 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: they did it. Well, that's smart. I like that. That's great. 563 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: You have always truly been bipartisan. You've always been accessible 564 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,239 Speaker 1: when I was Speaker, even if you didn't like some 565 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: of the things I was doing. I always felt I 566 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: could get a straight answer from you, and I very 567 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: much cherished and identified with your commitment to American national 568 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: security and the degree to which is something you worry 569 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: about every day of your life. And of course we've 570 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: sustained this friendship through your decade at the Wilson Center. 571 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: I hope will sustain it for many years to come. 572 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: And I thank you for your book because we're going 573 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: to have on our show page how people can buy it. 574 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: We're also going to put on the show page link 575 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: back to the Wilson Center because you also had done 576 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: a normal's job of shaping it, and I think you'd 577 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: agree it's one of the places that should be understood 578 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: far better than it is. Well, let me just say 579 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: thank you for that. It was a labor of love. 580 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: And I don't do anything halfway, nor do you, and 581 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: I really care about ideas in the future. And the 582 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: book is not just a memoir looking backward. That's not me. 583 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: It's a memoir looking forward of how we can fix 584 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,479 Speaker 1: and confront these things, these problems that make us less safe. 585 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: But it will take the executive branch, the Congress, and 586 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: the private sector pulling together, especially given the new threats. 587 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: I hope people will engage with this book and the 588 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: ideas in it, and I know you are, and I'm 589 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: grateful for that, and I was delighted to accept your 590 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: invitation promptly and when you invited me to be honest podcast. 591 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: It's called Insanity Defense, Why our failure to confront hard 592 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: national studio problems makes Us Less Safe? And it is 593 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: on our show page. I urge everyone to read it. 594 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for spending this time with me. 595 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: Thank you, Nude, take care. Thank you to my guest, 596 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: Congresswoman Jane Harmon. You can find a link to her 597 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: new book, Insanity Defense, Why our failure to confront hard 598 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: national security problems makes Us Less Safe on our show 599 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. Newts World is produced by 600 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:18,280 Speaker 1: Gingwidge three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, 601 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: our producer is Gardnsey Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 602 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 603 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty. If 604 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 605 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 606 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 607 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up from 608 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at Gingwich three sixty dot 609 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld