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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Vice President Harris has raised so

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Speaker 1: much money that she's giving twenty five million dollars to

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Speaker 1: down ballid candidates. We have such a great show for

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Speaker 1: you today Bolts Magazine Daniel Nickanean tells us about how

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Speaker 1: many local government legal battles will affect the upcoming election.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Wesleyan University President Michael S. Roth

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Speaker 1: about how to create a college campus that is both

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Speaker 1: safe and also political. But first we have legendary campaign manager,

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Speaker 1: my friend, the author of the Conspiracy to End America

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Speaker 1: Five ways my old party is driving our democracy to autocracy,

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Speaker 1: the Lincoln Projects, Stuart Stevens. Welcome back, too, Fast Politics.

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Speaker 1: That one the only Stuart Stevens.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for after me to the party.

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Speaker 3: Molly, I'm such a fan of yours.

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Speaker 1: But more importantly than being a fan of yours, I

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Speaker 1: think you are a realist.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: I was telling my brother this on the phone and

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Speaker 1: he was getting really bored. But I thought it was

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Speaker 1: a good point, which is that there is a certain

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Speaker 1: sense in which the hive mind of punditry. Political punditry

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Speaker 1: feeds off itself and comes up with some dumb ideas,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like you don't ever get stuck in that.

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Speaker 5: I think that the greatest danger on the Trump moment

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Speaker 5: is the way in which he has normalized so much

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Speaker 5: that we normally wouldn't accept right. And I think that

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Speaker 5: there is this deeply human need to see the world

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Speaker 5: as normal, to see people as normal. We even have

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Speaker 5: a language that talks about that. You know they'll revert

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Speaker 5: to normal, And there is a desire to look at

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Speaker 5: this race sort of like Romney Obama. It's gonna let's

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Speaker 5: talk about taxes, let's talk about economy, let's talk about

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Speaker 5: which I find to be sort of like a debate

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Speaker 5: on your cholesterol count when you're in the middle of

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Speaker 5: a knife fight. Not that the cholestical count is an unemployment,

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Speaker 5: but maybe there's something more important going on. And I

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Speaker 5: think that it's difficult to keep framing the race and

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Speaker 5: the choice that it means, but I think it's really

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Speaker 5: critically important that we do. That Trump is just gauged

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Speaker 5: by a different standard now, and he's allowed the party

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Speaker 5: to be gauged by a different standard. Now, and I

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Speaker 5: think that that historically is a very dangerous path to

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Speaker 5: go down, the way autocrats use the benefits of democracy

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Speaker 5: like free speech to end those benefits. So I think

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Speaker 5: it's just really important to constantly try to frame the

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Speaker 5: race for what it is. I think it's really more

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Speaker 5: beholden upon those who are outside the Harris Waltz campaign

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Speaker 5: to do that, because when you're inside the Hair Walts campaign,

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Speaker 5: you can't be waking up every day and saying, my

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Speaker 5: opponent wants to ruin America, my opponent wants to It

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Speaker 5: just doesn't work. You have to be able to reach

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Speaker 5: people where they are and all of them. But I

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Speaker 5: think that's why it's important for everybody else who believes

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Speaker 5: that to be saying it consistently and loudly and clearly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. And again, like

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Speaker 1: this is the question of, like, how do you keep

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Speaker 1: American democracy going when one party fundamentally no longer believes

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Speaker 1: in it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I don't think that the Republican Party is a normal

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Speaker 5: traditional American party. I think it's become an extremist movement.

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Speaker 5: That's how we should and no extremist movement ends because

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Speaker 5: a moderating element within the extremist movement emerges dominated. It

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Speaker 5: wasn't like the moderates inside the Red Guard finally ended it,

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Speaker 5: you know, or the moderates inside like the Shining Path,

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Speaker 5: decided well, yes, it's gone too far. The party is

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Speaker 5: not going to save itself. The party is invested upon

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Speaker 5: having a unified front that would help them eat to

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Speaker 5: deny what they have become. And when you look at

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Speaker 5: those who say no, they are expelled from the party.

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Speaker 5: I mean, this goes back to twenty sixteen when Romney

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Speaker 5: called out Trump. I think it's fair to say that

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Speaker 5: amit thought the more people would join him. Yeah, And

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Speaker 5: of course they finally did with the Access Hollywood tape,

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Speaker 5: But then they reversed themselves. There is nothing within the

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Speaker 5: Republican Party that's going to save itself. I mean, if

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Speaker 5: you think about it, what line can you cross that

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Speaker 5: is worse than sending a mob into your office to

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Speaker 5: try to kill you. Do you accept that?

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Speaker 4: What do you think?

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Speaker 2: You go, Oh, well, they went too far in the

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Speaker 2: law of the Seat treaty.

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Speaker 5: I can't go there. It is a complete collapse of

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Speaker 5: a party. And that's why I don't think this race

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Speaker 5: is going to be particularly close.

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Speaker 3: I hope it's not. But tell us why you think that.

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Speaker 5: Well, I think the structure of this race is is

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Speaker 5: pretty sent. Trump has never gotten north to forty seven percent.

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Speaker 5: He won with forty six point two percent. Romney lost

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Speaker 5: with forty seven point two percent, He lost in twenty

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Speaker 5: with forty six point nine percent. And even at the

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Speaker 5: worst of after the terrible debate that the president had.

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Speaker 5: It was a lot of people saw that debate and

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Speaker 5: had doubts about Biden but didn't become Trump voters. And

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Speaker 5: Trump has this self limiting ceiling of around forty seven percent.

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Speaker 5: Campaigns can deal with that, and the campaign understands that

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Speaker 5: they're not stupid. So if you read the speech that

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Speaker 5: was written for Trump to give, it was an effort

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Speaker 5: to try to expand that base. But then you look

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Speaker 5: at what Trump give. He couldn't stay on the speech

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Speaker 5: for ten minutes. I mean, you could write a dissertation

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Speaker 5: about those two different texts. And they know that they're

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Speaker 5: theory of the cases, that there's a winning set of

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Speaker 5: issues immigration, prime inflation, that they can win this racehome.

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Speaker 3: They're going to win on policy.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump is going to win the presidency on policy right.

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Speaker 5: I don't buy that because when I look at the numbers,

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Speaker 5: I don't see immigration as a number one issue from

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Speaker 5: the majority of the country at all. I see it

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Speaker 5: as one issue of people who are supporting Trump. But

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Speaker 5: even if you believed in that, and so, how do

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Speaker 5: you do that. You have to have message discipline, have

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Speaker 5: to wake up every day. You know. Famously, when Bill

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Speaker 5: Well ran and got elected the first Republican governor of

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Speaker 5: Massachusetts in over twenty years, he talked about crime welfare

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Speaker 5: taxes everywhere?

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Speaker 2: What crime welfare taxes.

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Speaker 5: Trump can't do that because he can't stay to any message,

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Speaker 5: and he can't not respond to any slight and he

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Speaker 5: can't let anything go. So that makes a very easily manipulable,

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Speaker 5: vulnerable candidate. So if you just take this back and

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Speaker 5: forth about Arlington Cemetery, any singing campaign would let us

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Speaker 5: go and.

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Speaker 3: Move back because it's a bad luck. It's, among other.

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Speaker 5: Things, it's just if you think you've got something out

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Speaker 5: of it, you got it, you're not going to talking

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Speaker 5: about it, You're not going to get more out of it.

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Speaker 5: And when you're the one thing a campaign can control.

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Speaker 5: The three three things campaigns can control what you say,

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Speaker 5: where and how you spend money and where you go.

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Speaker 5: And all the bullshit about campaigns, all the fault of war,

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Speaker 5: what they really say, all the spend you really cut

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Speaker 5: through when you look at what they are saying, where

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Speaker 5: they're spending money, how they're spending it, and where they're going.

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Speaker 5: So where is it in a recent expenditure of thirty

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Speaker 5: seven million that they put on advertising, they put twenty

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Speaker 5: three million into Georgia. That's what they think. They know

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Speaker 5: that they're now back to having to defend the state

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Speaker 5: that a couple of months ago they thought was a gimmee.

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Speaker 5: And compared to the PRIs campaign, their Reproductive Freedom tour,

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Speaker 5: bus tour, fifty stop tour. Where does it begin? Right

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Speaker 5: down the floor at Florida. Yeah, and then they're going

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Speaker 5: to Jacksonville. That is a campaign that is expanding the map,

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Speaker 5: that is making an other campaign spend money from where

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Speaker 5: they didn't think it was going to be. And it

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Speaker 5: really shows who is driving the agenda.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really important and I think relevant and also

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Speaker 1: just interesting. So here's my question for you, why do

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Speaker 1: we think that, Like, for example, Trump last week was

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Speaker 1: like I'm going to get every man, woman, and child

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Speaker 1: at IVF okay IVF tens of thousands of dollars. Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump tried to overturn Obamacare. Like, why doesn't anyone ever

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Speaker 1: bring up in the policy that Donald Trump tried to

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Speaker 1: enact during his four years as president?

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think I think everybody think the

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Speaker 5: Harris campaign should. I'll tell you who is asking that question,

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Speaker 5: and that was any any abortion moves who were like,

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Speaker 5: what you know, what the fuck are you doing here?

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Speaker 2: When Trump is talking about idea, it doesn't matter what

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Speaker 2: he says.

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Speaker 5: He's losing. This is a losing issue for him. He

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Speaker 5: had shut up about it. It's same on abortion. He's

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Speaker 5: now flip flopping around about abortion. So instead of spending

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Speaker 5: time talking about these issues immigration, crime, inflation that he

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Speaker 5: thinks he can win, he's over here saying, look, I'm

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Speaker 5: gonna we're gonna have mandatory idea require nobody believed.

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Speaker 1: But it also runs contrary to this embryonic personhood that

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Speaker 1: his party is super obsessed with.

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Speaker 5: It's why attorneys remind clients they have the right to

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Speaker 5: remain silent. You don't have to keep saying this inside

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Speaker 5: that campaign.

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Speaker 2: He drives them crazy.

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Speaker 5: I promise you you've already got Corey Lewandowski. You've got

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Speaker 5: Chris Losovita is working for Corey Lewandowski.

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Speaker 6: Really you're really doing that, you know, I mean it's

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Speaker 6: come to that a guy like Corey Landowski and the

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Speaker 6: you and I used to just mock a guy who,

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Speaker 6: you know, part time puddle cop.

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Speaker 5: Who couldn't even get a full time a cop. Andy Sure,

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Speaker 5: he's most known in politics for a guy. When he

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Speaker 5: was working for the Nanfra State Party, he debated a

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Speaker 5: cardboard cutout as a Democratic good theatorial candidate, and the

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Speaker 5: consensus was to cut out Onewhelmingly. You know, we never

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Speaker 5: would left these people in the campaigns. He's a thug,

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Speaker 5: he hates women, assaulted reporters, but he charged with that

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Speaker 5: so much of Trump World. Do you rise in Trump

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Speaker 5: World by flattering Trump?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 5: So what does that mean? It means whatever he does.

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Speaker 5: You have to say, that's great. You can't coach that way.

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Speaker 5: You can't have a play or run some crazy route

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Speaker 5: that's way off targeted. When they talked off to the

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Speaker 5: sidelines the coach, So that was great, that's great. I

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Speaker 5: don't know what happened to the quarterback. You should you know.

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Speaker 5: It's instead of like, well, don't do that. This is

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Speaker 5: what you're supposed to be doing. We can't do that

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Speaker 5: because you get expelled from Trump world. And it's why

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Speaker 5: there are no serious people around Trump and it greatly

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Speaker 5: limits your ability to really run a campaign as opposed

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Speaker 5: to just go out in public in a moat.

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Speaker 2: And that's really what Trump is doing.

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Speaker 1: Now, what do you think about this? There's sort of

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Speaker 1: their strategy is they're kind of just getting mad a

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Speaker 1: little bit.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, he's doing a few rallies.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and then they think that the debate will

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Speaker 1: change everything for Trump.

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Speaker 3: How would that even work?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you have to say, debates rarely matter. It didn't

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Speaker 5: matter and Trump button. So I suppose you could sit

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Speaker 5: there and talk to yourself that it's going to happen again.

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Speaker 5: The problem is every other debate Trump had he lost.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't go.

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Speaker 5: Up after any debates with Clinton, go up after the

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Speaker 5: Biden debate. If I was in the Harris debate prep,

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Speaker 5: I would say, look this it's just very very simple,

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Speaker 5: and this debate can be about a lot of things,

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Speaker 5: like all debates are, but we have to decide what

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Speaker 5: this debate is going to be about, and what this

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Speaker 5: debate should be about is prosecuting Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Play to your strength.

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Speaker 5: A lot of political consulting is grasping what a Canada

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Speaker 5: does best and reinforcing that so they take what they

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Speaker 5: do well and may help them do it great and

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Speaker 5: just let make sure what they don't do well, they

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Speaker 5: don't do it badly enough to the cost them the race.

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Speaker 5: And so she's a great prosecutor. I mean, I would say,

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Speaker 5: in the old Ning statement, this has never happened before

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Speaker 5: in American history. A kreparent is on stage. Fortunately there's

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Speaker 5: a prosecutor on stage.

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Speaker 2: That's me.

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Speaker 5: In the course of this debate, I'm going to show

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Speaker 5: you what Donald Trump is unfit to be president of

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Speaker 5: the United States and wise a danger to the American experiment.

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Speaker 5: I would just prosecute the most aggressive candidate usually win

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Speaker 5: the debate, and I think it would drive Trump crazy.

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Speaker 3: Do you think she'll do that?

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Speaker 1: I mean, she's been very smart about doing things that

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Speaker 1: fight the world didn't necessarily have the stomach for, but

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Speaker 1: was the right way to meet Trump where he is.

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Speaker 1: Do you think she'll do that?

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Speaker 2: I think that. You know, candidates tend to like to

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Speaker 2: do what they do well.

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Speaker 5: Like athletes, fastball pitchers like to throw fast balls, so

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Speaker 5: I think she'll do more of it than not. The

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Speaker 5: danger in debates is always going into him with either

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Speaker 5: having not really felt through the goals or going in

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Speaker 5: with too many goals. I think you can go into

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Speaker 5: a debate with two or three goals and that's it

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Speaker 5: in this dynamic. I think it has been true from

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Speaker 5: the very beginning. I think it was two with Biden.

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Speaker 5: The essential goal that the Democratic candidate now Harris has

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Speaker 5: to accomplish this That person has to represent the future,

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Speaker 5: and I think Biden had a chance to do that.

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Speaker 5: Because of this policy, Harris has a better chance to

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Speaker 5: do that and to be the safer choice. I have

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Speaker 5: to make Trump a dangerous choice, and I think that

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Speaker 5: that's easy to do. I think the simplest way to

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Speaker 5: do it is to say it, don't be complicated. Voting

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Speaker 5: mac Donald Trump is dangerous. We know what he has done,

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Speaker 5: but we don't know what he will do. Whatever the

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Speaker 5: next time is going to be worse. The history of

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Speaker 5: authoritarians becoming less authoritarian in office is non existent.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to laugh because it's so serious, but

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Speaker 1: it is true.

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Speaker 5: And you don't want to make it a necessity to

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Speaker 5: vote for Harris that you buy into all of her

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Speaker 5: proposed You may not agree with some of her proposals,

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Speaker 5: That's okay. I mean, this is what Jeff Junkin and

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Speaker 5: Adam Keinzinger were saying. You don't not to agree with everything,

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Speaker 5: but what you have to do is agree on a

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Speaker 5: few basics that we must defend in the selection, like

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Speaker 5: rule of law right.

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Speaker 1: And then also it creates a permission structure for Republicans

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Speaker 1: to vote for her.

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Speaker 5: The one essential element of a democracy is someone has

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Speaker 5: to be willing to lose, and Donald Trump has proven

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Speaker 5: that he's unwilling to lose. You can't have a democracy. Then,

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Speaker 5: I think that Harris should be just unrelenting in the

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Speaker 5: debate and not worry about mocking him, not worry about

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Speaker 5: baiting him, Just go at them. She has a very

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Speaker 5: good feel for this, and I think she's going to

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Speaker 5: do really well.

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Speaker 1: Do you think Trump just sort of keeps sleepwalking into

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Speaker 1: this now? I mean, do you think there's a way

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Speaker 1: for his people to reset the campaign when he seems

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Speaker 1: so sort of bored with running for president?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he does seed border he's done it. Three times now.

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Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, he's basically run for president almost now

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Speaker 5: as long as he's been married to one person and

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Speaker 5: doesn't have a great track record, Trump won't allow the

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Speaker 5: campaign to be about anything but Trump, And it's just

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Speaker 5: a reality of it. He's uncoachable and he's not going

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Speaker 5: to follow any directions. And by bringing in Corey Lewandalski,

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Speaker 5: you're just reinforcing that. He really brought Cory Lewandalski because

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Speaker 5: he was tired of arguing with Susie Wiles and Chris Osceovido.

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Speaker 5: So now he's just going to put Corey Daron. Corey's

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Speaker 5: going to tell him the shadow and he can go

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Speaker 5: out and do what he wants to do. I think

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Speaker 5: that Trump is going to become increasingly desperate because at

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Speaker 5: a certain point it is going to occur to him

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Speaker 5: that he is going to lose this race, and that

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Speaker 5: that means he probably will go to jail desperate Canada,

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Speaker 5: like desperate people are usually at their most unappealing.

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Speaker 1: It just is so crazy to me that we have

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Speaker 1: a race where it's basically one person is running his

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Speaker 1: day out of jail.

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Speaker 3: It's so insane.

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Speaker 5: We have a convicted felon, so so think about it.

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Speaker 5: You're a Republican in twenty sixteen. You start out with, ah, no, no,

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Speaker 5: I can't really swallow Hillary Clinton. Let's give this guy

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Speaker 5: a chance. And then what do you end up? You

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Speaker 5: end up defending a sexual predator who's a convicted felon.

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Speaker 3: It's been impeached twice.

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Speaker 5: Has been in peach twice, he says, any won't recognize

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Speaker 5: the results of the election.

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Speaker 3: Just insane.

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Speaker 5: It just shows why character does count and the party

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Speaker 5: just prove that it didn't believe in anything. I don't

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Speaker 5: know any other conclusion to come to power.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us. This was so important.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Bally.

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Speaker 7: We have even more towor dates for you. Did you

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Speaker 7: know the linked projects Rick wils that have fast politics

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Speaker 7: Bali jug Faster out on tour to bring you a

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Speaker 7: night of laughs for our dark political landscape. Join us

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Speaker 7: on August twenty sixth at San Francisco at the Swedish

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Speaker 7: American Hall, or in la on August twenty seventh at

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Speaker 7: the Region Theater. Then we're headed to the Midwest. We'll

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Speaker 7: be at the Bavarium in Milwaukee on the twenty first

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Speaker 7: of September and on the twenty second, we'll be in

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Speaker 7: Chicago at City Winery. Then we're going to hit the

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Speaker 7: East coast. On September thirtieth, we'll be in Boston at

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Speaker 7: Arts at the Armory. On the first of October, we'll

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Speaker 7: be in Pfilliate City Winery, and then DC on the

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Speaker 7: second at the Miracle Theater. And today we just announced

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Speaker 7: that we'll be in New York on the fourteenth of

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Speaker 7: October at City Winery. If you need to laugh as

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Speaker 7: we get through this election and hopefully never hear from

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Speaker 7: a guy who lives in a golf club again, we

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Speaker 7: got you covered. Join us in our surprise Guests to

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Speaker 7: help you laugh instead of cry your way through this

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Speaker 7: election season and give you the inside analysis of what's

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Speaker 7: really going on right now. Buy your tickets now by

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Speaker 7: heading to Politics as Unusual dot bio. That's Politics as

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Speaker 7: Unusual dot bio.

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Speaker 1: Daniel mccanean is the editor of Bolts Magazine. Welcome back,

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Speaker 1: too Fast Politics, Daniel.

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Speaker 4: It's great to join you. It's always fine.

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Speaker 1: I always think of you as like the guy who

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Speaker 1: knows local because you're the editor of Boltz Magazine and

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Speaker 1: Bolts does a lot of really important local election stuff,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't get a lot of coverage because we're in

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Speaker 1: the post post post news apocalypse.

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Speaker 4: And there's so much to track and watch right now

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Speaker 4: and in the next two months.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, Yeah, I want.

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Speaker 1: To talk about Florida, the school boards, et cetera. There

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Speaker 1: were these Florida primaries that didn't get a ton of notice,

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Speaker 1: but they did in fact involve a bunch of America

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Speaker 1: first school board candidates, and then now some of them

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Speaker 1: have advanced. These are not school board candidates, obviously, these

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Speaker 1: are other elected officials or elections have advanced to the

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Speaker 1: general right.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk about that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think what's important context is that the

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Speaker 4: governor of Florida, you know, obviously the very conservative round

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Speaker 4: the Santas has pursued it in recent years. You know,

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Speaker 4: he's really wanted to leave a deep mark on the state,

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Speaker 4: to transform the state, take it very far to the right,

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Speaker 4: and for him, that has taken the road of being

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Speaker 4: very intentional about going after county level offices all over

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Speaker 4: the state. So you're mentioning school boards, but it's not

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Speaker 4: just that, it's also election officials, it's also DA's It

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Speaker 4: is also shriffs and so on, And that's not something

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Speaker 4: we always see from a governor. Obviously governors have levels

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Speaker 4: of but the centers have been particularly intentional about it.

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Speaker 4: So one way this has to taken form in recent

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Speaker 4: years is the school boards. As you mentioned obviously the

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Speaker 4: months for liberty groups, the conservative groups that are trying

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Speaker 4: to take more Florida's school boards have been very active

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Speaker 4: in Florida. That that's the state where the Santis has

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Speaker 4: also signed a lot of laws that affect what's going

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Speaker 4: on in schools and with book bands and so on.

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Speaker 4: And he endorsed a bunch of candidates running for school

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Speaker 4: board all around the.

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Speaker 3: State really and a lot of them lost.

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Speaker 4: A lot of them lost on August twentieth in the primary. Yes,

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Speaker 4: and he was hoping to take over a bunch of

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Speaker 4: swing county school boards and that didn't work out in

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Speaker 4: some places, it did. You know, I would say it's

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Speaker 4: a mixed message, and in some places that are very conservative,

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Speaker 4: it goes a long way to have the centus say

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Speaker 4: please work for this person. But also, Mollly, i think

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Speaker 4: it's very important to pay attention to other offices. So

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Speaker 4: you know, maybe one of the craziest thing that's happening

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Speaker 4: in American politics right now is that the Centus over

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Speaker 4: the past few years has just removed elected officials from office.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we've had people like that on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so that, for instance, he's removed the Democrats who

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Speaker 4: were elected prosecutors in Tampa and Orlando, you know, very

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Speaker 4: big areas, effectively over not agreeing with them. He didn't

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Speaker 4: like that prosecutor in Tampa had said he wouldn't prosecute

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Speaker 4: wortioning cases, and so he removed him from office. One

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Speaker 4: thing we're watching at Bolt is these people now are

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Speaker 4: trying to make a comeback. So the prosecutor in Tampa

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Speaker 4: one is primary in August and now is going after

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Speaker 4: this incumbent prosecute who was appointed by dissentists who replace them.

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Speaker 4: But you know what's super odd is what does it

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Speaker 4: even mean to run for office in our circumstances? Like

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Speaker 4: when are you going to be removed? Again? Is that

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Speaker 4: what elections look like in America?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 4: It's just a very odd, very odd situation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. It is so

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Speaker 1: anti democratic that you could like run for something be

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Speaker 1: removed by a MAGA governor. That's not how any of

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Speaker 1: this is supposed to work. So Nebraska has some stuff

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Speaker 1: going on with redistricting and making it harder to vote,

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Speaker 1: and there's been a lot of like Nebraska facrory because

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Speaker 1: of that one electoral college vote that they have talk

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Speaker 1: to me about what's happening there at the state level.

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Speaker 4: I mean, this is really the time of year where

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Speaker 4: you have to pay attention to, like with themening the

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Speaker 4: state officials honor the radar, because that's really what everyone like,

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Speaker 4: that's really what's going to decide, you know, the actual

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Speaker 4: details of the close elections. And there's really a very

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Speaker 4: extreme situation unfolding in Nebraska right now that everyone should

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Speaker 4: be aware of, which is is so Nebraska has laws

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Speaker 4: that allow people who have finished their felony convictions to

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Speaker 4: get their voting rights restored, and there was a new

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Speaker 4: law passed by Republicans actually that expanded that bit to

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Speaker 4: make it a little easier. And now suddenly over the summer,

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Speaker 4: two statewide elected officials Republicans, the Attorney General and the

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Speaker 4: Secretary of State of Nebraska, abruptly, surprisingly, unexpectedly announced that

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00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 4: the laws should stop being enforced, that officials who register

441
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 4: people to vote shouldn't stop doing that, and that has

442
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 4: thrown the voting rights of tens of thousands of people

443
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 4: in limbo, even people who were already registered to vote

444
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 4: based on existing law that was in effect for twenty years.

445
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 4: Even they are now suddenly in this limbo of wait,

446
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 4: do I have the route to vote? What has happened?

447
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 4: The state is now suddenly saying I don't, even though

448
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 4: the law says that. And that's frightening for people who

449
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 4: have been involved with them criminal legal system already, and

450
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 4: the last thing they want is to suddenly do something

451
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 4: potentially legal and be thrown back in prison or be

452
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 4: thrown back in front of a court. So our reporter

453
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 4: Alex Bernest talked to people who are affected in Nebraska.

454
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 4: We have an article on this on our website, and

455
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 4: a lot of them told them, listen, I don't know

456
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 4: what's right or wrong here, but I can't take a risk.

457
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 4: I'm too frightened. And they're speaking to other people in

458
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 4: this situation and that that's what we're hearing. So this

459
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 4: is a very, very shocking situation. There was a court

460
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 4: case a few days ago where the States Swim court

461
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 4: at least heard the case. But you know, in many ways,

462
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 4: the damage is done. Even if the state smime Court

463
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 4: steps in in a week or two and says, which

464
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 4: this is insane, but these will have the right to

465
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 4: vote because law says that in many ways the harm

466
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 4: is done, the pr issue, the confusion, the fear is

467
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 4: going to remain. And you absolutely right that the Omaha,

468
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 4: which is obviously a city in Nebraska, they have an

469
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 4: electoral vote that just effectively omahas and that's super important

470
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 4: for the presidential race. There's also a key race for

471
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 4: the US House in Nebraska that we are all watching,

472
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 4: so this is very important.

473
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is some thought that the House Republicans are

474
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: in so much trouble, and again this is a theory

475
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,679
Speaker 1: of the case, maybe not correct. The House Republicans are

476
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 1: in so much trouble. They are no longer doing offense,

477
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: they're doing defense. And there is some money issues. Democrats

478
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: have more money, though Republicans have superpacks that are not

479
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: necessarily being counted. Right today, there's been just a ton

480
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: of media about ad bys and like, well, it shows

481
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: that Democrats are buying more than Republicans. A lot of

482
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 1: the Republican pack stuff is not in those numbers, right right.

483
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 4: You know, everyone has a lot of money or Republican

484
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 4: packs have a ton of money. They've obviously used it

485
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 4: in the past in all these races, and you know

486
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,880
Speaker 4: a place like Omahai is going to see a lot

487
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 4: of spending for the house rates for the presidential race.

488
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 4: It's also very hard in this time of any campaign,

489
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 4: any cy goal to trust. Everyone wants more money, and

490
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 4: the leak stories about not having enough money for to

491
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 4: create a sense of urgency. It's hartunallyxactly what's going on

492
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: at that level. But yeah, a lot of dark money

493
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 4: obviously everywhere. There's also a lot of money now that's

494
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 4: flowing in judge races across the country. There was just

495
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 4: an announcement a few days ago by a Conservative pact

496
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 4: about the money that they're going to pure into state

497
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 4: judge races, which are also very important.

498
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you to talk to our listeners about

499
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: what you think are the races that people are not

500
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: covering that seem important.

501
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 4: Let's jump into Yeah, that's one, yeah, yeah, yeah. State

502
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 4: Supreme court races are super important. The courts are super important,

503
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 4: so under the radar. I think they're ten percent left

504
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 4: under the radar since stops because they will we shoot

505
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 4: important decisions. Auction rights which have made them more salient.

506
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 4: But you know, let's start with Michigan. Michigan is obviously

507
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 4: the key swing state for the presidential race, but it

508
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 4: also is one of the states where the part is

509
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 4: then majority on the State Supreme Court is at issue

510
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 4: in this fall, and obviously that's super important. There's a

511
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 4: four to three majority right now for Democrats on the

512
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 4: court and two seats are at play in November, and

513
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 4: that could swing one way or the other. You know.

514
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 4: As one example, just a few weeks ago, the state

515
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 4: Supreme Court issued a super important decision on a four

516
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 4: to three vote that said lawmakers can trust immediately ignore

517
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 4: the results of a ballot initiative. And that was a

518
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 4: four to three decision. So that was at the same

519
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 4: time a win for the people who want bad initiatives

520
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 4: to have authority, to have power. It was also molly

521
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 4: a very stark reminder of the fact that these decisions

522
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 4: come down to very narrow majorities in state Supreme Court

523
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 4: and that itself is up to voters. Another state that

524
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 4: where the majority could flip on paper is Ohio. Ohio

525
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 4: just has a four to three majority on the court

526
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 4: right now for Republicans and Democrats have a shot if

527
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 4: they have a very election night at flipping the Ohio

528
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 4: Supreme Court. You know, it seems like a stretch. Ohio

529
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 4: has become a difficult state for Democrats, but the rewards

530
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 4: for Democrats in terms of being able to break the

531
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 4: Republican gerrymander would be so huge if they manage to

532
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 4: flip the court. And I'll also flag maybe to end,

533
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 4: there's four judges in Florida and Arizona that have just

534
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 4: recently this spring voted to allow abortion bands that are

535
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 4: up for retention this year. So that's two in Arizona

536
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 4: and two in Florida, all of which issued extremely high

537
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 4: profile or abortion decisions upholding abortion bands and are now

538
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 4: on the ballot. There just isn't a lot of attention

539
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 4: to these retention races that I'm going to imagine that

540
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 4: a lot of people who are listening to this, who

541
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 4: care about abortion rights and maybe are in these states,

542
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 4: have not heard about these state supreme courts we are

543
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 4: on the ballot. So there's just like an attention deficit

544
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 4: around these races.

545
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: Can you explain to me how they work these states

546
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: supreme court races?

547
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 4: That's a hard question because then terry dependent on the state.

548
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 4: In some places, it's an election like any other. It's

549
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 4: an election where you know there's a Democratic Republican. In

550
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 4: some states, the party labels don't show up on the ballot,

551
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 4: so people need to do a little more research to

552
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 4: have their vote aligned with what they want. And then

553
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 4: in places like Florida or Arizona, it's just a yes

554
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 4: or no question, do you want to retain this Supreme

555
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 4: Court justice. So in Arizona, for instance, if the justices

556
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 4: were not retained by voters, then the governor would appoint

557
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 4: new justices. And the governor in Arizona right now is Democrat.

558
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 4: You know what's really crazy, though, there's also a referendum

559
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 4: on the ballot and Arizona in November that Republicans have

560
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: put that would cancel judge elections, and it would apply

561
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 4: to the November vote.

562
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 3: Oh, judge elections do people? That seems insane.

563
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 4: What's particularly extreme again is it would apply to the

564
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 4: campaigns that would have just ended. So let's say a

565
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 4: judge is not retained that day, but voters also passed

566
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 4: this measure, it would cancel the fact that the judge

567
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 4: was not retained. Again, this is a referendum that would

568
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 4: cancel from now on all judge elections, effectively giving them

569
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 4: life tenure without any check, which, you know, you could

570
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 4: argue whether or not be like that as a system,

571
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 4: but the way way in which is being proposed with

572
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 4: something else.

573
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: It's kind of crazy, right. I mean, the sort of

574
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: larger framing is that these red legislatures have kind of

575
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: taken trump Ism as an excuse to just do every

576
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: crazy thing they've thought of. Ultimately, this is like it

577
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: feels like there's sort of this like you know, going

578
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: out of business fire sale, and they're just throwing everything

579
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: they can against Wall.

580
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 4: We could just talk about Arizona for a long time

581
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 4: as the emple of lost a worth you're saying. They

582
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 4: was the proposal in Arizona a bill, an actual bill

583
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 4: in early twenty twenty four that would have just given

584
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 4: the state's electoral votes to Trump with no votes being cast.

585
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 4: That bill did not past, but someone who's currently into

586
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 4: the legislature introduced it and what wanted to see it

587
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 4: pass then, and it was actually heard in the legislature.

588
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 4: The fact that that didn't pass, I guess is good

589
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 4: means for democracy. But just the very fact we even

590
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 4: having that conversation.

591
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,479
Speaker 3: But it's crazy. It's a purple stay right.

592
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 4: The venue having that conversation just captures and Molly, the

593
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 4: person who introduced the bill at a primary a month

594
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 4: ago and won the primary, the Republican primary. So it's

595
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 4: not like voters were like appalled Appaufman enough to do

596
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 4: anything about it. So adepts of proposals we're saying, we're

597
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 4: seeing in some places right now in the world. Where

598
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 4: Trump loses the election in November, we could see more

599
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 4: of that after that.

600
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: Right, there is a sense that if Trump keeps losing

601
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: and again this is this fundamental problem, if Trump keeps losing,

602
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: eventually maybe Republicans rethink this.

603
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 4: Right, I guess we shall see if you lose this.

604
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 4: I mean, at the moment, what's happening is that conservatives

605
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 4: who are aligned with Trump and with lives about elections

606
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 4: are making progress still in the Republican primary, like we're

607
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 4: talking about Florida and Ares. In both states, there's a

608
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 4: bunch of people who just say that the election was

609
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 4: robbed in twenty twenty, you know, echoing the lives of

610
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 4: President Trump. We're advancing to the general election for election

611
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 4: offices in twenty twenty six. I mean, you know, it's

612
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 4: a long time off. Let's not talk about it entirely now,

613
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 4: but it's possible that come the fall of twenty twenty

614
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 4: six will be in a situation where, even if Trump

615
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 4: is in an office, the people who have echoed these

616
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 4: these false conspiracy theories about elections are going to be

617
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 4: even more entrenched in the trenches. And that's something that

618
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 4: is important to pay attention now because in these places

619
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 4: the elections to decide whether they'll be in power are

620
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 4: also happening right now.

621
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 3: It's not good.

622
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: It's not good if you are someone listening to this,

623
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: where can you get the most bang for your book

624
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: donation wise?

625
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 4: Well, I think people should should look at what's happening

626
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 4: first of all in their state and local in state offices.

627
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 4: The majority of people who are going to listen to

628
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 4: this right now probably do have a state court race,

629
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 4: for instance, where they are.

630
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: They may have a DA race where they are.

631
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 4: They may have a race for SOS, which is the

632
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 4: office that runs elections. They may have an off for

633
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 4: the county clerk, for a election supervisor. You know, whatever

634
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 4: your opinions on what matters most here. So there are

635
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 4: ways to plug into what's happening in state politics and

636
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 4: local politics, and pay attention, you know, be informed obviously,

637
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 4: and tell your friends about all of those elections.

638
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: Can you talk to me for a minute about Nebraska

639
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: and what's happening in Nebraska, because the polls I've seen,

640
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: and again I know they're just polls, and you know,

641
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: but I've seen some polls that show the Democrat who

642
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: was actually not a Democrat, who's an independent and rejected

643
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: the Democratic label, but who is very kind of running

644
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: a sort of Bernie Sanders like campaign and surgeon campaign,

645
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: is actually ahead right now in the polls.

646
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 4: There was just a poule this weekend where the independent

647
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 4: was tied to the Republican. Super interesting. There's no Democrat

648
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 4: at all there. Those Democrats sort of backed down and

649
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 4: didn't feel the candidate to give space to this independent.

650
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's a hard one because it's

651
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 4: sort of the mirror image of Maryland, where there's a

652
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 4: Republican ex governor Republican who's trying to live to see

653
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 4: and I think most people expect that we've seen these

654
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 4: movies before, and at the end of day, the gravity,

655
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 4: the partisan gravity of the state will take over for

656
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 4: Republicans in Nebraska and for Democrats in Maryland. But the

657
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 4: movie is not over till till it's over. And at

658
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 4: the very least, it'd be interesting to see if Republicans

659
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 4: are forced to spend a lot of money in Nebraska

660
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 4: to sort of defend themselves. You know, there's an off

661
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 4: chance of an upset. I mean, the Democrats are trying

662
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 4: to expand the map because Democrats have a very tough

663
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 4: map in the Senate. They need to win a red

664
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 4: state or to be able to keep the Senate.

665
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: And they can't keep West Virginia that's already gone.

666
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we're talking about Ohio and Montana. We're talking

667
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 4: about those states. We're talking about Democrats for being to

668
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 4: expand the map in Texas, in Florida and adding a

669
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 4: Brasska to the list would just potentially add another place

670
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 4: for Democrats to shield themselves and hope to keep the chamber.

671
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: So interesting. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

672
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: Daniel always to talk about all this, Thanks so much.

673
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five and how

674
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: awful Trump's second term could be? Well, so are we,

675
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: which is why we teamed up with iHeart to make

676
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,719
Speaker 1: a limited series with the experts on what a disaster

677
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five would be for America's future. Right now,

678
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: we have just released the final episode of this five

679
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: episode series. They're all available by looking up Molly John

680
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: Fast Project twenty twenty five on YouTube, and if you

681
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: are more of a podcast person and not say a YouTuber,

682
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 1: you can hit play and put your phone in the

683
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: lock screen and it will play back just like a podcast.

684
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: All five episodes are online now. We need to educate

685
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: Americans on what Trump's second term would or could due

686
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: to this country, So please watch it and spread the word.

687
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: Michael S. Roth is the president of Wesleyan University. Welcome too,

688
00:33:59,160 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: Fast Politic.

689
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: Wesleyan University President, Michael Roth.

690
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: Great to be here.

691
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: We've known each other for a while.

692
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: I actually briefly went to wesley and though I did

693
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: not graduate from their full disclosure, but one of the

694
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: things I have always thought you really need and I

695
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: was reading this op edge you wrote in the New

696
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: York Times today or maybe it came out over the

697
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: weekend about really important takes, so talk to us about

698
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: You have been a college president for a while, but

699
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: being a college president has sort of become a different

700
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: thing all of a sudden, right.

701
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: That's what they say. I mean, I've been doing this

702
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 2: a long time. I think that's like twenty five years

703
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 2: that have been a college president's embarrassing.

704
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 5: You know.

705
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: My first day as a college president in San Francisco

706
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: at an arts school, I passed that in the bathroom

707
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: because I was so ambivalent about being a college president.

708
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 2: I thought, this is there's you know, we're usually as

709
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: a factory member. I thought they were just a bunch

710
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 2: of lackeys, you know, right, barnacles on the ship of education.

711
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: But that area, I'm doing it forever. I'm doing it

712
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 2: since excuse and ate this. My teeth year at Wesleyan.

713
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: It had I don't know if it's really changed. I mean,

714
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 2: the world has changed. People don't like education as much

715
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: as they used to. Americans have always been ambivalent about education,

716
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 2: but they have in the past, giving colleges more slack.

717
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: You know, that good stuff went on there, people thought

718
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: And now I think a lot of Americans, and for

719
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: some good reason, believe that what goes on at colleges

720
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 2: is that people learn how to be condescending to folks

721
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: who aren't At colleges, the university people in my kind

722
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 2: of job, they get very defensive and then they try

723
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 2: to pretty much stay out of trouble. And that doesn't

724
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: work because we should try to find ways to it's

725
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: a cliche to make good trouble, but to do things

726
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 2: that are not just in line with the prevailing trends,

727
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 2: but to push back against those trends in interesting ways.

728
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really important point. There is

729
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: definitely the right has kind of declared war on education

730
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: or on higher education or have they tell me you

731
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: are like on the ground in a prestigious university. So

732
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: I mean, is that what's happening. It's what it looks

733
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 1: like to me from my purge.

734
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: But oh yeah, I mean, you know, Jade Massi has

735
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: said famously that the university's are the enemy. He should

736
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 2: be thanking us for introducing him to his wife. Is

737
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: a thing about it, And only in a university with

738
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 2: two people with such different backgrounds find each other and

739
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: one of the great things about being at a university.

740
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: But the right has found convenient scapegoats, and we've often

741
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: had this role. We are the scapegoat for the right.

742
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: And where that that was true in the sixties, he

743
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: was true in the nineties. You know, it's true now

744
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: and the left is divided about universities. You know, we

745
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 2: are kind of a pipeline for progressives with all the

746
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: problems that with being a pripeline for progressive which is

747
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: that a lot of people seem to leave universities these

748
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: days thinking they're on the right side of history and

749
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 2: screw those other people who don't know the right side

750
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: of history is. And that's teaching people to be narrow

751
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: minded and kind of stupid, actually, But we have done

752
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 2: that too at universities, and so there are some people

753
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: on the left, or people who are at least non

754
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 2: fully on board with some progressive programs that also feel

755
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: very ambivalent about universities these days, as the languages we

756
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: speak and the courses we teach seem to be further

757
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: and further away from the concerns of folks who are

758
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 2: not at universities.

759
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 3: Right.

760
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point, where you get

761
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 1: removed from the actual nuts and bolts of preparing people

762
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: to go out into the world. But we talk on

763
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: this podcast a lot about the rise of authoritarianism in

764
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 1: the Republican Party and how trump Ism has given birth

765
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: to this kind of really nast eastrain of authoritarianism, which

766
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: we're having Chason Stanley on next week, and you know,

767
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: talking about this idea that they're coming for the educational institutions.

768
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: We saw that in Florida with New College. Florida also

769
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: has a tenure review for professors that is quite aggressive

770
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: and sets up a world where you have professors less

771
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: interested in taking stands that might displease the governor. Some

772
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: of this is like using this sort of protests on

773
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: campus as a way to malign the institutions, right.

774
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Jason and I have argued about this

775
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: on the radio in the past. I mean, I do

776
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: think the universities we don't do ourselves a favor by

777
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: cultivating a kind of political group think on campus and

778
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 2: not taking seriously, at least in some fields and some campuses,

779
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: strains of thought that also can lead to change, but

780
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 2: are not part of the progressive consensus relays.

781
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: And that's the sort of Barry Wise, you know, there's

782
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: no room for conservatives on campus.

783
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's made a lot of money with that argument,

784
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: you know, a lot, and found a lot of rich

785
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: people who agree with her. But I think there's a

786
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 2: point to it, which is that just like when I

787
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 2: was a graduate student in the late seventies and early eighties,

788
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: you know, professors used to say to us, well, we

789
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 2: don't hire a bunch of white men just because we

790
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: like white men. We're hiring the best people. When my

791
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: colleagues turn to me and say, we're not hiring a

792
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 2: leftists because they happen to resemble ourselves in our own

793
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 2: political opinions, we're hiring the best people, I'm suspicious of

794
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 2: that argument. I do think we need more intellectual diversity

795
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 2: at universities, but I think that that's what we should

796
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: cultivate within the university. We're being scapegoaded by the authoritarian

797
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 2: right because it helps stoke resentment at people who are

798
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: thought to have privileges, and we do have privileges at universities,

799
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: and the response in many universities is to become more insular,

800
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 2: to actually turn inward and to talk our own language

801
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: and only talk to one another. And that makes matters worse.

802
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: And so finding ways to create reciprocity rather than feeding resentment,

803
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 2: that seems to me a really important task in the

804
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: coming months. The other thing I'll say is that it

805
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: seems to me the university right now the next two

806
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 2: months have a profound obligation to energize their students to

807
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 2: get out and work on campaigns and support the candidates

808
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: of their choice and get involved in issues. Because the

809
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 2: university shouldn't be neutral about the electoral system or democracy.

810
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: We should be encouraging our students and our faculty to

811
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 2: be engaged in the public sphere. And that is something

812
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 2: that people can find in their mission statements. But many,

813
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: I think many presidents and deans are not comfortable apparently

814
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 2: doing that and really trying to activate the political energies

815
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: of their students and their faculty and staff. We need

816
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: them to get involved in politics. Whatever the results turn

817
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,439
Speaker 2: out to be, it's going to be worse if young

818
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: people just turn their backs on policy.

819
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the protest for a minute,

820
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: because I think some of why the Republicans are so

821
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: obsessed with the protests is because protests really did help,

822
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: or they think at least that protests helped Richard Nixon.

823
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so can.

824
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: You talk a little bit about sort of the strategy

825
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 1: there of using protests as a way to kind of

826
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: divide Americans.

827
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: Sure, the strategy is to see protests as a breakdown

828
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 2: of order. And when you have a breakdown of order,

829
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: you need the guy who says only I can fix this,

830
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: And so it feeds into this authoritarianism of paranoia loop.

831
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 2: And so the media, of course has amplified this because

832
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 2: they cover Columbia and UCLA and UCLA and Columbia and

833
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: then maybe a little bit of Emerson College. But they

834
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: cover the four percent of protests that turned violent or

835
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 2: damaged property. They didn't cover the vast majority of protests

836
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 2: which were bearing witness to an atrocity in the Middle East.

837
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 2: They were bearing witness to a war that's gone out

838
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 2: of control and to a government that has not followed

839
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 2: through on its principal obligation, which is to get its

840
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 2: citizens released from being hostages. So students and faculty staff,

841
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: but mostly students all over the country were saying, how

842
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 2: can our government support this war as it's being waged?

843
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: And I think at most places that was very peaceful. Now,

844
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: I don't agree with many some of the demands that

845
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: some of the protests are making, but that's neither here

846
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: nor there. If young people ignore what was happening in Gaza,

847
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: this would not be to their credit. This would be

848
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: a shame and the fact that they are raising their

849
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: voices to protest the ways in which United States support

850
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 2: is enabling a war in Gaza that is inhuman by

851
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 2: any definition. That's the credit of the students.

852
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: One of the things I thought was smart about your

853
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: ampat was this idea. There's been so much written in

854
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: the political and so many hours devoted to complaining about

855
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: campuses being too political, when.

856
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 3: In fact, really college is meant to be. I mean,

857
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 3: I ended up non finishing college too. I'm speaking in.

858
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,959
Speaker 1: Principle, in a largely theoretical way, but that it's meant

859
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: to be a place where people can be passionate about

860
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: important things.

861
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and the students are western of protests. They're protesting me.

862
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like there we're all buddies, you know,

863
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: and I'm on their side. I'm a supporter of Israel.

864
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 2: I should make that clear, right.

865
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 3: And you're jew too, and I'm in Jewish.

866
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: And I believe that Israel has a right to defend itself.

867
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: I think this work could end if Hamas had the

868
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 2: least concern for the citizens of Gaza, if it had

869
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 2: the least concern for their welfare. And I've written that

870
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 2: and then there's a link to that op ed in

871
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 2: the Times up at and so the students know that

872
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: I am not one of these from the River to

873
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 2: the Sea people. On the other hand, I think that

874
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 2: the students have every right to make their voices heard

875
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: as long as they allow the university to conduct as

876
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 2: regular business and its educational mission. And I have these

877
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: people telling me that, oh, but the students are ignorant

878
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 2: of history. There are a lot of people or proiser

879
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 2: are like I am, who are also ignorant of history.

880
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: I don't think history is the issue. The issue is

881
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 2: extraordinary destruction of a land and its people that is

882
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: being conducted with the support of the American taxpayer and

883
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: the American government, and wanting to change that. I believe

884
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: those kinds of protests are important. I think they should

885
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: be protesting in Washington. I think it's a fantasy to this.

886
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: Divestment is just a fantasy that somehow endowments would sure this.

887
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: If you don't buy Ford stock, that's what they're don't

888
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: buy General Motors or Microsoft. This is silly that they

889
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: have every right to protest. I think it's wrong. They

890
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 2: should be trying to elect a government that will create

891
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 2: the conditions for a sustainable peace. AVA see about investments

892
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: seems to me both naive and a fantasy about the

893
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 2: importance of endowment.

894
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 1: Right though some endowments are richer than others, right, I mean,

895
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: there's some endowments that are the size of a small country.

896
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: But I'm just wondering if you could talk for another

897
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: minute about it strikes me that college presidents have had

898
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 1: a very tough time of it lately. Obviously, you guys

899
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: are not a protected you know, you're not egrets.

900
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 2: We're pale very well, right.

901
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: You're very powerful people.

902
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 1: But ultimately it's been sort of you know, we saw

903
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: the Columbia the president of Columbia leaving. We've seen a lot,

904
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: you know, we saw those college presidents who testified before Congress.

905
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: You know, I think all but one are gone. I mean,

906
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: and there's been a lot of really annoying dinner party

907
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: conversation that I've been privy to about who does a

908
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: good job and who doesn't do a good job of

909
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: being a college president. And what I like about what

910
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: you you wrote is that you talk about like that

911
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: this is actually about students living in the world. But

912
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can talk about sort of what

913
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: you've done, what you've been able to do in your

914
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: campus to keep everybody safe, to feel like people had

915
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: a voys and whether you've seen that in other schools

916
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 1: or whether you've seen people struggle with it.

917
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: I think in many schools, students have been able to

918
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 2: exercise their rights to free expression and to do so

919
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: in ways that allow other people to go about their

920
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 2: business and to continue the emissions of the university. And

921
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 2: I think at many places that's happened. There are pressures

922
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: on university presidents to please their board. Of course, because

923
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 2: of board they reported the board and boards should, with

924
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 2: the help of a president, have the institution's best interests

925
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 2: at heart. Those interests include cultivating a campus where people

926
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 2: that feel they can protest and get involved in politics.

927
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: I know at Wesleyan I have such a board. I mean,

928
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: I'm very fortunate, and you know it's not an accident.

929
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 2: Many of the board members now I've known for quite

930
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: a while because of my tenure and the culture of

931
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 2: the institution makes an important difference. But presidents, one of

932
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 2: our most important jobs, maybe our most important job, is

933
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: to bring resources to the university. I mean, I write

934
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 2: op eds and I write books and I enjoy doing

935
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 2: I teach classes every semester, but you know a lot

936
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 2: of people could do that. What I have to do

937
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 2: is raise more money than last year. And last year

938
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: we raised more money than we ever raised before. That's

939
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: because that's for scholarships, is for financial aid, that's for support,

940
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: research and teaching. And that takes, you know, explaining why

941
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 2: you lead the university the way you do and not

942
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: just appealing I think to the loyalty or the sentimental

943
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 2: affections of your alumni. And it's the end. We have

944
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 2: an active board and an active alumni body. Some of

945
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 2: whom you know, want me to shut down the protests,

946
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 2: others want me to divest. But I think what they

947
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 2: appreciate most of the time is that we're able to

948
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 2: explain what we're doing and how it fits into our

949
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: philosophy of education. I wrote a book a few years

950
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 2: ago called Safe Enough Spaces, where I see, you know,

951
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 2: you don't want to make the campus so safe that

952
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: nobody's going to do anything interesting or offensive, But you

953
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 2: don't want it to be so crazy that people are

954
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 2: poisoning to each other with drugs or getting involved in violence.

955
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 2: It has to be a place where people know they're

956
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: free enough to do things that might get them in

957
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 2: trouble elsewhere, or that might be offensive in some quarters,

958
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 2: but they're free enough to do it on campus because

959
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,720
Speaker 2: there are relations of trust among the students and between

960
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 2: the students and the faculty and administration. And so that

961
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 2: idea of it being, you know, safe enough, not totally safe,

962
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: and not totally say whatever you want or do whatever

963
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: you want. But that notion I think helps keep the

964
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: campus conversation going forward, makes it positive. I have this idea, Molly,

965
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 2: that over the last couple of centuries, really in the West,

966
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 2: the notion of being a student, especially in college, is

967
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 2: you get to practice freedom. This book called the Student,

968
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 2: a Short History, and my conclusion is that we let

969
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: students just being free. If they just rate that what

970
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 2: they do is practice like making money only, or they

971
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 2: just practice baseball, or they just practice I don't know,

972
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 2: beer pong, that's waste.

973
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 5: They have to.

974
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 2: Explore being free, and sometimes you know, that's messy. But

975
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: if you're at a campus where there's trust, where there's

976
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: some safe enough protections, then you get to practice being

977
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 2: free in a way that prepares you for being an adult.

978
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: When you leave campus.

979
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting. What is important is that you're looking

980
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: at this in a way that is different than everyone else.

981
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, Molly, I looked down my

982
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: window at the camp end of the sprying I've made.

983
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: People were calling me a murderer and a fascist. And

984
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 2: you know, I looked at the window at these kids

985
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: in their tents and with their guitars, and they're now

986
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: their computers and their inheated conversations and they're singing. He

987
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: reminded me of my favorite times in college too. And

988
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 2: I don't want to be kind of Sunday to them.

989
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: And maybe I'm wrong and they're right, But I also

990
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: don't want to pretend I agree with them. But I

991
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:59,959
Speaker 2: do want to protect their ability to make their voice

992
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: is heard, as long as it doesn't degenerate into intimidation

993
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: and harassment.

994
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what it's about. Thank you so much

995
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: for joining us, Michael Row.

996
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 2: Thank you, Molly. Great to be with you.

997
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 3: No momento, Jesse Cannon, Molly jung Fast.

998
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 7: There's this police called X and I'm going to tell

999
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 7: you something a lot of bullshit that didn't happen is

1000
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 7: spread on it every day, mostly by the CEO as well.

1001
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 7: But what did you see here today?

1002
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 1: This is a lie that comes from a fake newspaper,

1003
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: which is amazing. It says that in June twenty eleven,

1004
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: Harris was driving a car and hit two pedestrians. This

1005
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: is absolutely not true. It is a complete and utter lie.

1006
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 7: Keeps getting retweeted every second.

1007
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: Yes, thousands of people are seeing it. It's a complete

1008
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 1: fabrica and it is our moment of fuckery watching Elon

1009
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 1: Musk spread lies about Vice President Harris.

1010
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 3: That is our moment of fuckery.

1011
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1012
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

1013
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1014
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1015
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.