1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamp and I'm Christian Segar. Robert, 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: you and I both play pretty violent video games and 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: enjoy them, but none of us are violent men. And 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious about this. I mean, I spend 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 1: a good thirty to forty minutes a day just chilling 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: out playing titan Fall and shooting a bunch of stuff, 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, and I find it relaxing. It's totally predicated 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: on war and violence, and like the mechanics of the 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: game like have like there's like kill executions and stuff 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: that are you know, supposed to make it more thrilling 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: or whatever. But like I get like a sort of 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: zen quality of like clearing my mind from doing it. Yeah, 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: it's interesting to take it apart. I mean it's true. 16 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: I I've never thrown or taken a punch in my life. 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: I've never had like a true interest in personal martial arts, 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: except you know, maybe it's just a possible way of 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: like exploring your body awareness. I could see the appeal there. Yeah, 20 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: violent media has always been present in my life. I 21 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: write violent things from time to time. I've always been 22 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: a fan of of the simulated yet impactful theater violence 23 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: of professional wrestling. Uh, and it does make me wonder 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: to what it's extent is there like this innate violent 25 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: aspect of of of humanity that finds its way out 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: in these forms. I mean, I also ask these questions 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: when I observed my my five year old son. I'm 28 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: around him all the time. I don't know to what 29 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: extent the influences of other children play into his uh, 30 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: his uh, his demeanor, but but I know that he 31 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: digs mostly sweet things at his age. He like the animals, 32 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: he likes totorow and yet he easily took to dinosaur violence. Uh. 33 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,279 Speaker 1: And he likes to climb on me in a manner 34 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: that feels kind of wrestling esque, and he's taken to 35 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: sort of punching me, but he's not. He doesn't call 36 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: him punches. He's he pretends that his fists are dinosaur 37 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: eradicating asteroids and he'll go asteroids falling, and then he uh, 38 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: he's sort of like that. Your kid is acting out 39 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: like mass extinction level genocide with a punch. That's pretty amazing. Yeah, 40 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: Like the first time you watched Panio, another Miyazaki film. 41 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: He was a little upset because Panio's dad was a 42 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: little too serious. Granted he's voiced by Liam Neeson in 43 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: the version he's watching, but he got upset over that 44 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: and had to grow to where he could watch Panio. 45 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: But and but yet dinosaur eradication via extinction of it, 46 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: he's totally on board. Yeah. Oh, I imagine, like he's 47 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 1: seen skeletons and museums and stuff like that of dinosaurs, 48 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: so he's got a firm grasp on that. Yeah. Well, 49 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, I've been thinking a lot about this lately, 50 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: not just your son and and like the progression of violence, 51 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: but just violence in general. It's been in the news lately. 52 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: And I'm saying that now, and I suppose you could 53 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: say that at any period of time, right, there's been 54 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: violence in the news recently. It just feels like it's 55 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: it's it's omnipresent, and it it's been kind of disturbing me. 56 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: So a friend suggested that I read Stephen Pinker's The 57 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: Better Angels of Our Nature for reassurance, because essentially the 58 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: premise of this book is that the world is actually 59 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: less violent than it used to be and things are 60 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: getting better in terms of violence, but slowly. It doesn't 61 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: seem like it in the present because the media's attention 62 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: is very much on the sort of like it bleeds, 63 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: it leads news, right, So of course, like there's constantly 64 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: going to be stories about shootings or bombings or fires 65 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: or knife attacks, right, And this kind of stuff is 66 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: pretty disturbing and upsetting, and I think in a cynical 67 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: worldview makes you think like, oh gosh, like we are 68 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: just you know, bent on utter self destruction. But Ker's 69 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: book actually makes a really good point that we're not, 70 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: and that there are a lot of ways in which 71 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: we're rising up out of that. Now you're probably asking 72 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: you some of you may be asking yourself. Who is 73 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: Stephen pinker Well. He's a Canadian born American cognitive scientist, psychologist, linguist, 74 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: and popular science writer. His name has come at a 75 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: time or two on the podcast. I think, uh, what 76 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: was it? Euphanisms? I think we're one of the recent 77 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: things we're discussing euphanisms and Pinker's writing he talks about 78 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: euphemisms and here in relation to ideology, So we'll touch 79 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: on that a little bit. And actually this episode. This 80 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: is like a meta stuff to blow your mind episode, 81 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: because I feel like we're really zooming up big picture, 82 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: looking at human biology, evolution, philosophy, and very specifically neuroscience 83 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: in a lot of cases. But it touches on many 84 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: episodes that you and Joe and I have have done 85 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: in the past, so we'll be bringing in stuff from 86 00:04:58,200 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: that as well. Yeah, we're gonna be zipping down the 87 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: high way here, and along the way, they're gonna be 88 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: some exits to look very interesting. In some cases, those 89 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: are avenues we've explored before. In other cases are avenues 90 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: that we can explore in the future. So let us 91 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: know and we'll either direct you in the right direction 92 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: or accord a new episode that lines up with that area. 93 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: So just up front, I should establish that this book, 94 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: The Better Angels of Our Nature is massive. It's like 95 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: eight hundred nine hundred pages long. So there's no way 96 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: we could do an episode that would be of like 97 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: normal length for you to listen to where Robert and 98 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: I had discussed this entire book. It's just too big 99 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: to do that. So for this episode, we're really honing 100 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: in on a section that he refers to as inner Demons, 101 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: and this is where he explains why human beings are violent, 102 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: and he does a really good job of doing it 103 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: by doing this massive literature review of of human existence 104 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: and sort of how we've applied violence over time, but 105 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: also what we've learned about violence through various research methods. Uh, 106 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna touch the other stuff that's in the book, 107 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: and like Robert said, like if if some of it 108 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: comes up and you say, like, oh, I would like 109 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: a full episode on that, you know, we may gloss 110 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: over it here, but talk to us and maybe we'll 111 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: be able to do something in the future. So he 112 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: starts off with doing this overall huge data analysis. Basically, 113 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: I think it's like the first six chapters of the 114 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: book where he essentially looks at the course of human 115 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: history and says, yeah, violence is a major part of it, 116 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: and it seems to be very specific to our species. 117 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: But it doesn't have a fixed rate. So violence isn't 118 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: like a human urge in the way that sexes or 119 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: hunger or sleep. And he says, in fact, if you 120 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: look at the data presented, violence has actually declined over time, 121 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: and there's plenty of evidence that human beings are in 122 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: fact averse to violence. So for instance, uh, this is 123 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: something we've talked about on the show before it comes 124 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: up in the office a little bit too, that there's 125 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: an example that most soldiers in war don't actually fire 126 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: with the tent to kill during wartime. This observation comes 127 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: from the Second World War and from historian and US 128 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: Army bridgetier General S. L. A. Marshal, and he reported 129 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: the firing way it was fifteen and out of every 130 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: hundred men engaged in a firefight, only fifteen to twenty 131 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: actually use their weapon. And then in Vietnam, for every 132 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: enemy soldiers killed, more than fifty thousand bullets were fired. 133 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: But we have to point out that some critics have 134 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: charged that Marshall's observations were more observational than a true 135 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: science scientific study, and others have been less kind. Yeah, 136 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: so it's I mean, you can you can look at 137 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: that and maybe, like, if you're worried about the amount 138 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: of human violence that's going on in the world, you 139 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: can say, well, that's an encouraging sign, right right, And 140 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: and I and I should also point out that this 141 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: is just one of the many examples that Pinker draws upon, 142 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: and so he's not basing everything just on this on 143 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: this thing about to kill stats. Uh, and in general, 144 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: when we're talking about Pinker's argument that violence is going 145 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: going down, he is talking about over arching statistical evidence 146 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: and just in the broad picture of human culture, obviously 147 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: an individual human is still capable of staggering cruelty and violence. 148 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: We know the examples. We preserve the examples in our 149 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: cultures like specimens on a shelf. But again we have 150 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: to come back to what does the larger pictures say, 151 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: What are the larger trends for humanity itself? And so 152 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 1: for evidence of human violence. Pinker actually at first turns 153 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: to one of the an unlikely area that I would 154 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: think of, But actually, when you brought up your son earlier, 155 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: it makes sense. He looks at two year olds as 156 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: being the most violent stage of humanity, basically talking about 157 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: and you would know better than I do, but you 158 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: know that like at that age, we're thrashing around a lot, 159 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: We're more likely to get angry at the drop of 160 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: a hat or burst into tears and and really like uh, 161 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: kind of exert like dominance and revenge kind of tactics 162 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: over small petty things. Yeah, I don't know, it's a 163 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: difficult want to rule on because I just have the 164 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: one child too to base my observations on, and then 165 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: every kid is going to be a little different. Maybe 166 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: Pinker just had some really rough kids. Yeah, I don't know. 167 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: I mean when I guess one of the things is 168 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: when emotional responses are coming online for young children, there 169 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: are less filters, so when they feel mad over something, 170 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: they feel it, and then when they feel happy about something, 171 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: they just feel it. And so you observe these these 172 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: for what what for an adult would be just crazy 173 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: mood swings, but for a child, like that's the power 174 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: they're they're painting with. But even when you look at 175 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 1: the statistics related to adults, it gets a little bit 176 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: scary in terms of how much we fantasize about violence. 177 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: Seventy of men and fifty to eighty percent of women 178 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: in a study, and these were all college students, admitted 179 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: that they fantasized about killing someone. Uh. And this kind 180 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: of gets into the sort of idea, like the general 181 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: idea that bad people actually do what good people dream 182 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: about doing. Right, and this is why we have this 183 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: violent fiction and fun right like our video games where 184 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: we're shooting everything or we're watching horror movies or action 185 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: movies or whatever. I think I think that the language 186 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: here is very important. Like when we use terms like 187 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: fantasize that that makes it sound like you're like the 188 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: revenge fantasy on my head. Here is just I'm really, 189 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: I'm really getting off on this vision of me, uh, 190 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 1: punching that guy in the face. Whereas and we'll get 191 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: into this more later on, but if you view it 192 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: as a sort of mental simulation, if you're thinking of 193 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: the things that I could do in response to this uh, 194 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, this individual uh ticking me off or offending 195 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: me in somewhat some fashion. Of all the possible things 196 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: I can do, punching them is one of those things. 197 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: And here is how it might play out in my mind. 198 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: Here are the pros, here the cons. Here's how it 199 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: might make me feel. But then here's how it might 200 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: feel to to get arrested. So if you look at 201 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: it from that point of view, it's like it's not 202 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: it's not as creepy and weird as fantasizing about violence. 203 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: It's more like, yeah, your brain knows that violence is 204 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: always an option. It's just to what degree does your 205 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: brain say that it's almost always never worth the effort. Yeah, 206 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: and pinker later, you know, goes on to describe that 207 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: as sort of one of our angels rather than our deanons, 208 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: is the ability to rationalize risk assessment, essentially whether or 209 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: not the risk and reward is worth it for violence. 210 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: But where it gets really and it's really worth us 211 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: zooming in on is the neuroscience, because neurosurgeons have described 212 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: something that's referred to as the rage circuit in the 213 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: mammalian brain. And I'm gonna walk you through this using 214 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: a rat's brain as an example to start off, why 215 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: did you bring that in in your pocket? Or you know, well, 216 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: I've got the rat. I figured I might as well 217 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: take the brain out. Uh. So, here we've got the 218 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: rat brain. It has a pathway that connects three major 219 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: structures in the lower parts of its brain, and these 220 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: are similar to other mammalian brains like humans. A aller 221 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: of tissue in there is called the para aqueductal gray 222 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: and this is comprised of gray matter that is surrounded 223 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: by a fluid filled canal that runs from the spinal 224 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: cord to the brain. And this is essentially where this 225 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: rage circuit lies. It contains all the inputs that create 226 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: our irritation, things like pain and hunger and blood pressure 227 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: and our heart rate and temperature and our hearing, and 228 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: so the para aqueductal gray is partly under the control 229 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: of our hypothalamus, and it's regulating emotional, motivational, and physiological states. 230 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: It sits on the pituitary gland, which is pumping hormones 231 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: into the bloodstream, regulating cortisol from our adrenal glands, and 232 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: cortisol is pretty important here in terms of like the biochemistry. 233 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: The hypothalamus itself then is regulated by the amygdala, which 234 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: is applying our memory and our motivation, giving emotional coloring 235 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: to our thoughts. So on top of all of this, 236 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: this entire rage circuit is the cerebral cortex, and that 237 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: patches into our eye sockets literally with the orbital cortex. 238 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: These terms are going to be important later as we're 239 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: going through sort of methods of rage turning into violence. Now, 240 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to step away from Pinker for just a 241 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: second to discuss uh some ideas by neurobiologists Douglas Fields. 242 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: These are not ideas that are contrary to Pinker's arguments. 243 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: I think they line up rather nicely in fact, as 244 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: as we continue on with the discussion, but Fields has 245 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: written a great deal about the rage circuit as well, 246 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: and he argues that violent behavior is often the result 247 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: of the clash between the modern world and the evolutionary 248 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: hardwiring of our brains. We all have triggers, he says, 249 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: and we have to be aware of them in order 250 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: to manage them. And uh, these are the triggers that 251 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: he proposes. It spells out the word life morts, So 252 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: that's I didn't know that was a real word. Yeah, 253 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: life morts. There's so many great band ideas already, Rage circuit, life, more, life, 254 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: more more. It's his L I F E M O 255 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: r t s That L is for life and limb 256 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: that's defensive aggression as a trigger for your violence. Then 257 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: I for insult, F for family or maternal aggression. So 258 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 1: you're protecting your family, protecting your your your child, or 259 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: at least that's the argument in your brain. Then there's 260 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: an environment to territorialism. Then M for mate, which does 261 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: not refer to British pub brawls but rather made benheaviorimating aggression. 262 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: Then there's oh for organization, the organization you're part of 263 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: are for resources or lack of resources, T for tribe, 264 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: an s for stop and this one refers to being trapped, 265 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: constrained or cornered. Yeah, And as we'll discover with Pinker, 266 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: that s part that being trapped, restrained, or cornered, that's 267 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: when humans can be their most violent. Quick quote from Fields. 268 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: This is from a National Geographic interview. He says, you're 269 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: not going to engage in violence and risk life and 270 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: limb for a trivial reason. There are very specific triggers. 271 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: So that's the it's key here. The even though our 272 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: violence within the modern framework is irrational in many cases, 273 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: it's tied into evolved responses that makes sense in the 274 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: in the like the long history of human evolution and 275 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: sort of the the the the full temporal picture of 276 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: the human being. Yeah, and Pinker makes this point and 277 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna cap it at the end of our episode two. 278 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: But that, like, the ability to define these things and 279 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: recognize what's within ourselves that makes us capable of violence 280 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: is sort of the first step towards stopping it from happening. Indeed. Uh, 281 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: And so it's whether it's Fields model or it's Pinker's model, 282 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, that just depends on what sort of like 283 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: linguistic thing you're applying on top of it. But both help. Now. 284 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: Pinker also focuses on practicality of violence, and he says, 285 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: when you move toward harming a fellow human, it must 286 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: accomplish two things. It's got to be at least increase 287 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: the chance at the target will come to harm, and 288 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: it will give the your target and overriding goal of 289 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: harming you before you harm them. This means we have 290 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: to consider the consequences of our actions practically, like we're 291 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: talking about earlier risk reward rationality. This is why most 292 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: human violence is cowardly, stealthy, and preemptive. Right, so we 293 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: tend to do it from afar, or you know, do 294 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: it when somebody's not looking or or not be a 295 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: part of it. Right. Um, it's very rare that like 296 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: somebody will be so psychopathic that they will like, uh, 297 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: just you know, murder hundreds of people face to face, 298 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: because the human averseness to that violence is biological. I 299 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: briest to mind all these examples as generally from our fiction, 300 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: where like one character demands that the villain fight them 301 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: fair and square, right, and but yeah, this is generally 302 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: not what we do. We're all about taking advantage and 303 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: having the upper hand. Oh yeah, and there's absolutely evolutionary 304 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: reasons for that too. Another component of that that Pinker 305 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: brings up is something that he refers to his forward panic, 306 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: and this is when humans face an opponent in a 307 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: long state of apprehension and fear, and then when they 308 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: can catch that opponent in a moment of vulnerability, it 309 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: leads to just utterly savage violence. This is human beings 310 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: that they're worse. So going back to that model that 311 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: Fields has earlier, that's when you're trapped or restrained or cornered, right, 312 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: and you've got the opportunity to break free from that, 313 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: and that you just see human beings just going to 314 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: just utter carnage. Then, yeah, this is basically the whole 315 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: idea of the Purge series, right, yeah, yeah, you know, 316 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought of it before, but like those 317 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: speak to sort of a real like inner uh quandary 318 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: of human violence. So he also argues though, that the 319 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: way that we get away with that in our own 320 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: heads is because we have something called a moralization gap, 321 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: and this is where we create narratives of victims and perpetrators, 322 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: and they diverge, and only really a neutral party can 323 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: see how they diverge from one another. So it's really 324 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: kind of self serving thinking. That's a form of cognitive dissonance, 325 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: and we develop all kinds of mental strategies of self 326 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: deception to help support it. Subsequently, this quirk in psychology 327 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 1: means no one thinks they're evil, right like you hear 328 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: you think about that in the world, like people who 329 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: are described as villains, No one sits around and thinks 330 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: I'm evil, I'm doing evil right. They all think that 331 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: what they're doing is innocent and that they themselves are 332 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: long suffering victims within their own narratives, so they always 333 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: think they're acting morally. And Pinker reminds us here of 334 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: Hannah Errant's infamous term the banality of evil, when referring 335 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: to the ordinariness of the Nazis atrocities during World War Two. 336 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: It's worth remembering this when you're looking at our storytelling 337 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: to write, Like whether you're making a story, you're watching 338 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: a movie or reading a book, even the worst bad 339 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: guy has justifications for why they think what they're doing 340 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: is right, you know. And so when when we tend 341 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: to watch fiction is just like, this guy is just 342 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: evil for the sake of being evil. At least in 343 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: this current day and age, that's not necessarily engaging for us, 344 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: right right, Yeah, you need some idea of their motivations 345 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: and why they view their actions as righteous. Yeah. Um, 346 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: and again this all makes perfect sense if you look 347 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,719 Speaker 1: at things from a life morts standpoint. The triggers are 348 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: they're they're evolved to enable survival, and what you can 349 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: think of is the temporally average human, the tribal hunter gatherer, 350 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: the hominid. All of this culture business is relatively new. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 351 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: A couple other terms I want to establish upfront for 352 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: Pinker before we get into what his quote unquote demons are. 353 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: Another thing that he describes within the brain is the 354 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: seeking system, and this runs from the fore brain through 355 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: a bundle of fibers in the middle of the brain 356 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: to the ventral striatum, which we call the reptilian brain. 357 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: It was discovered in rats when psychologists realized that if 358 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: they stimulated it with an electrode via a lever, the 359 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: rats themselves they would at this lever it was stimulate 360 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: the electrode in their own brain and what they would 361 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: start doing is hitting the lever over and over and 362 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: over against stimulating that part of their brain until they 363 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: became utterly exhausted. And these connections are actually two way, 364 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: they're not top down. So all these components in the brain, 365 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: they're talking to each other. The neurons within are signaling 366 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: each other with the neurotransmitter dopamine, and this motivates animals 367 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: to achieve goals for instance, hunting. Uh. There's actually also 368 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: a fear circuit that is theorized and it's connected to 369 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: the rage circuit. Some extreme fear, so this goes back 370 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: to what we were talking about about being you know, 371 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: caught or trapped. Extreme fear will trigger an enraged, defensive 372 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: attack or violence, So there you go. Likewise, there may 373 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: be another motivational system that triggers violence that is referred 374 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: to here as inter mail aggression or the dominance system. Basically, 375 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: the idea here is that the seeking system in our 376 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: brain leads males of a species to willingly seek out 377 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: aggressive challenges with other males, and this sometimes also leads 378 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: to blind rage. Now, the difference here between the rat 379 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: brain that I've got here in my hand and our 380 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: human brains is that these structures are enveloped by large 381 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: bloated cerebrum. The for humans, we have this big cerebrum 382 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: surrounding all of this stuff, and and it's taken up 383 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: by the frontal lobes, which possibly contends with our rage 384 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: and fear with things like restraint, prudence, and morality. And 385 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: this is where Phineas Gauge comes up. Good old Phineas Gauge. 386 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: I can't imagine how many episodes if you go back 387 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: through the stuff to blow your mind catalog, he comes 388 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: up as an example. Yeah, Phineas Gauge, it comes up. 389 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: It comes up quite a bit. This was a nineteenth 390 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: century individual. There was a freak railway accident that blasted 391 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: a crowbar like tool called a tamping iron up through 392 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: his skull. It entered under the left cheekbone and exit 393 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: through the top of his head, and it basically gave 394 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: him a frontal lobotomy. So when I was in high school, Uh, 395 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: for dare they made t shirts for all of us 396 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: that had Phineas Gauge's skull with the railway rod shooting 397 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: through it. Dare you mean to keep a kid off drugs? 398 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: Because it was a demonstration of what your head was 399 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: like when you were drunk or when you were on 400 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: certain kinds of drugs. So it's supposed to be these 401 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: t shirts that would remind you like, if you drink 402 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: and you drive, you're just gonna be like a guy 403 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: with a with a rod through his his head. They 404 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: were like, I thought it was kind of cool at 405 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: the time, but like I look back on it's like 406 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: this really morbid example to give kids. Yeah, like that's 407 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: that's not what it's like kids. That It also makes 408 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: me imagine like a you know, in a local evening 409 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: news story, kids call it gauging. They're blasting tamping irons 410 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: up through their skull in order to get high. Well, 411 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: if they were doing that, they would have to make 412 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: sure that they actually just droid the orbital cortex and 413 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: the ventromedial cortex, because that was what is theorized to 414 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: be destroyed in Phineas Gauge's brain, which led to these 415 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: unchecked emotions he was experiencing. So the orbital cortex is 416 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: actually adjacent to something called the insula, and that registers 417 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: our physical gut feelings. This is when you say something 418 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: like you've got a physical trigger, like my blood is 419 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: boiling when you're angry. This is coming from the insula. 420 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: But when you scan the brains of people who are 421 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: prone to violence, especially those with antisocial personality disorder, the 422 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: orbital regions, those are shrunken and less active. But when 423 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: you compare this to somebody, somebody like an impulsive murderer, 424 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: you find that their orbital cortex is actually malfunctioning. So 425 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,479 Speaker 1: it's not smaller, it's just not working the way it's 426 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: supposed to be. And so it seems that this is 427 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: our major inhibitor of violence, the orbital cortex, and certain 428 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: acts of violence our weight as being justifiable by our brains. So, 429 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: for instance, let me give you a scenario, Robert. What 430 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: if there were five people on a train platform and 431 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: you could see that they were going to be run 432 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: over by the train. The only way you could stop 433 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 1: the train was to push another person in front of 434 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: the train and derail it. Oh well, this is this 435 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: is a classic moral problem, right, Well, you have to 436 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: choose whatever benefits the most people, right, Yeah, it's very 437 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: spock right exactly. So you get into this quandary between 438 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: the logic of it and the humanity of it, right, 439 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: And we react against this with our amygdala and our 440 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: orbital cortex, and you have like a more utilitarian motive thinking, 441 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: like let's call it the Spock motive thinking. That's your 442 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: dorso lateral cortex where our intellectual, abstract problem solving is done. 443 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: All right, we got all that out of the way. 444 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: We've covered the brain pretty thoroughly. Let's take a break, 445 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: and when we get back, we're going to get into 446 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: the actual demons that Pinker has defined here, the five 447 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: things that make us violent. Alright, we're back. It's time 448 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: to summon the five demons. Yeah, get get out your 449 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: pentagrams and your your salt. No, they're not those kind 450 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: of deal and then not the fun kind. But I 451 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: guess we can imagine, we can imagine what their forms 452 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: might look like. Yeah, it works very well within Pinker's 453 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: format for this book, because you know the title The 454 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: Better Angels of Our Nature. The idea is that after 455 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: he presents these demons that we're going to talk about 456 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: in this episode, then he presents the angels subsequently that 457 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: we use to combat these demons that would keep us 458 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: from being as violent as we could be. Yes, So 459 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: the five demons argument, this is a rejection of the 460 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: hydraulic theory of violence. And the hydraulic theory is basically 461 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: what I was bringing up earlier when I was saying, 462 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: oh do I do I play violent video games? Because 463 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: there's an inherent violence in my body and this is 464 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: the necessary escape vow. The hydraulic theory is simply that 465 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: humans have an inner drive to violence, a blood lust 466 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: that has to be satisfied one way or the other. 467 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: And this is a this is a rejection of that argument. Yeah, 468 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: that's Pinker's main thing is that we are not there's 469 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: no actual single psychological route that makes us violent. In fact, 470 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: he says there's five things their predation, dominance, revenge, sadism, 471 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: and ideology. We're gonna go through each of these and 472 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: kind of touch upon Pinker's, you know, definitions for why 473 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: these are the things that make us violent. Well, I'm 474 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: envisioning this pack of demons right now with their grotesque 475 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: body in there. That'd be a fun project for stuff 476 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: to blow your mind fans, if you wanted to draw 477 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: our five demons of violence for for Pinker's set up. 478 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: There so predation, I'm imagining that's going to look something 479 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: like a predator. Of course, it's gonna have like the 480 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: dreadlocks and the weird uh spidermouth man thing. Right, Okay, Well, 481 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 1: what Pinker means by this is that is a use 482 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 1: of force as a means to an end, and it's 483 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: usually deployed in pursuit of a goal that's set up 484 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: by that seeking system part of the brain that we 485 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. So, for instance, when you're hunting for food 486 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: or sport, that's literal predation, right, you're preying upon another species. 487 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: There's a certain amount of empathy that we have with 488 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: prey as well in many cultures, right, Like a lot 489 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: of cultures revere the animals that they kill for their food. Yeah, 490 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: look no further than the ancient horned gods of chaos 491 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: un predictability of the hunt. And you can look to 492 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: to the deer stickers you see in the back of 493 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: trucks that clearly belonged to deer hunters, the trophies they 494 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: put in their homes. And perhaps this is kind of 495 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: a stretch, but maybe even the weird anthropomorphized mascots of 496 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: barbecue restaurants, you know, like the talking pigs and pots. 497 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: You brought this up a couple of days ago in 498 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: one of our company meetings, and you were a hundred 499 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: percent right. Every time I drive past a barbecue place, 500 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: I am confounded. The logos are either uh, pigs that 501 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: look like they're like so excited to be about to 502 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: be eaten, or like they're about to eat themselves. They're 503 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: like eating ribs from their own body. Yeah, like they're 504 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: they've gotten knives and forks pointed at their bellies and 505 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: they're grinning. It's the strangest thing, but you're right, it's 506 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,959 Speaker 1: kind of like our modern version of sort of, you know, 507 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: honoring the food that we're eating. But Pinker argues, when 508 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: you've got this chasm between the perpetrator's perspective and the victim, 509 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: so you don't have that kind of honoring, it makes 510 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: it a lot easier to conduct predatory violence. And so 511 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: this is when atrocities are committed and we say, how 512 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: could they possibly do that? Right, our empathy is actually 513 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: outweighing the predatory perspective, and this is why it helps 514 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: for perpetrators themselves to be able to see their victims 515 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: as quote unquote vermin or morally disgusting. Right, we talked 516 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: about the immoralization gap before. That's where it comes into play, 517 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: they basically convinced themselves, well, these people are less than 518 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: me and they're deserving of this. Yeah, it's that it's 519 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: the act of mothering it. We I mean we still 520 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: see in many cases today, and I mean really we 521 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: see it all over the place. Like, to whatever extent 522 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: you can make the other party less human and and 523 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: and more of an alien entity than than more becomes 524 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: permissible towards them, tying back into pinker demonization, so turning 525 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: them into demons. Now. He also talks about positive illusions 526 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: as being this sense where we have we think, oh, 527 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: well we're lucky, or we're super capable, or we can 528 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 1: justify ways that make it easier for us to be predatory. Right, 529 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: we usually exaggerate ourselves as a useful tool when we're 530 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: facing a rival. And then you know the reason why 531 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: is like, if the world didn't have these positive illusions, 532 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: there might only be violence when two rivals were closely matched, 533 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: because let's face it, they're not always matched equally. So 534 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: an example of this works when you look at war, right, 535 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: so perfect example, Napoleon and Hitler both trying to invade Russia, 536 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: Like those were obviously difficult odds, but there were countries 537 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: that initiated wars and ended up losing them. And here's 538 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: what's interesting. When you look at the statistics, countries that 539 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: initiate wars, they lose them twenty five to fifty percent 540 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: of the time. So people and nation states get into 541 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: fights that they can't win all the time. And this 542 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: is based on their bravado, buying into their own height. Exactly. Yeah. 543 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: Now leaders can totally overestimate that bravado, and that's what 544 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: leads us into this. Pinker also calls this the Lake 545 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: Wobegon effect after a Prairie Home Companion and Garrison Keeler, 546 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: because the idea here is that everyone assumes that they're 547 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: better than average. So when you ask the you know, 548 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: the general populace, and you say are you average, are 549 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: you lower than average? Or you better than average? Everybody 550 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: says they're better than average. Yeah, I mean, that's I mean, 551 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: especially in America. That's the idea of American exceptionalism, right exactly, 552 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: everybody's everybody has the potential for greatness. Nobody is law 553 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: into a particular cast. So this leads us to the 554 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: second demon on our shoulder, which is dominance. And this 555 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: is essentially our drive for supremacy over our rivals. And 556 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: it's tied back into that brain part that Pinker was 557 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: talking about earlier, which is the inter male aggression. Here's 558 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: the thing, though, it's easy to hear that and think, oh, well, 559 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: men are only violent, but actually it's not gender exclusive. 560 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: It's just that men tend to exhibit these qualities for 561 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: biological reasons. Will get into yeah, I mean, and in 562 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: the basic idea is that for the when you look 563 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: at the broad history of the human species, you have 564 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: a situation where the males, the males are the males 565 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: of the body for violence, and then in turn, they 566 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: have more of a brain for the violence. They're more 567 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: wired for the for the physical violence. Right. So, if 568 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: you look at homicides, the largest motive for them in 569 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: all altercations is trivial in origin. It's usually things like 570 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: somebody insulted me or they accidentally jostled me. But the 571 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: participants they actually behave as if there's more at stake, 572 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: which leads to murder. Uh. And this kind of violence 573 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: it acts as a way to prove dominance so that you, 574 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: as sort of like an alpha, are challenged less. Right. 575 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: The goal here is actually a spreading of information by 576 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: by showing that you're the stronger one. Hopefully the you know, 577 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: the crowd will see this and they will spread it 578 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: along so that you're challenged less often. Studies actually of 579 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: American street violence show that young men who have a 580 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: code of honor are more likely to perpetrate violence because 581 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: that code of honor sort of helps them with the 582 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: moralization gap. Likewise, if there's an audience presence, that doubles 583 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: their likelihood that they're going to be violent because that 584 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: audience will help spread that information. Now, this calls back 585 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: to the episode that Joe and I did where we 586 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: interviewed Franz da Wal where we talked about primates and 587 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: how primates will fight with one another but then after 588 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: they'll reconcile, and the Walls theory was that this is 589 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: because their long term interests are bound together, so primates 590 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: actually do their own version of rationalization, and with Bonobos 591 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: that the reconciliation often takes a sexual form. Yeah, yeah, 592 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: that came up as well, I believe. Now that's a 593 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: good point to bring into the gender difference here, which 594 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: is that Okay, men, yes, are far more violent and 595 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: they are more likely to value their professional status and 596 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: to take greater risks due to overconfidence. This is actually 597 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: thought to be a product of evolution, as males can 598 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: reproduce more quickly than females, so they're competing for sexual opportunities. 599 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: In the male brain, there's a nucleus in the anterior 600 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: pre optic portion of the hypothalamus that is twice the 601 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: size of a female's And there are so many receptors 602 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: in the system that are for testosterone, which is actually 603 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: five to ten times more plentiful and men. That makes 604 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: sense to us, But the fact that the receptors are 605 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: for that leads you to understand why men can be 606 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: more violent. Now, biologists aren't actually convinced that testosterone is 607 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: fully to blame for male aggression. Instead, they think that 608 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: what it does is it prepares men for the challenge 609 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: of dominance. Getting back to this, this demon the secondary 610 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: demon here of dominance. It's it's getting us ready for 611 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: that challenge. Now, Fields he pretty much backs all of 612 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: this up, and he also points out though that this 613 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: is all a double edged sword because certainly nine of 614 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: inmates are male, but nine of Carnegie Institute medals for 615 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: heroism have gone to men as well. Now, there you can. 616 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: You can tease that apart in various ways. But he said, again, 617 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: you can attribute much of this evolution of male and 618 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: female brains. That's how we evolve. Men have the body, 619 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: greater strength size for violence, and then therefore they have 620 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: the brains to use it. So Pinker actually argues that 621 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: this is a bad scenario when you've convinced yourself of 622 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: your sort of grandiosity, right, your bravado. If you have 623 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: too much self esteem, you're more prone to violence. So 624 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: people who are narcissistic and think well of themselves but 625 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: out of proportion with their actual achievements, those are the 626 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: people you should be worried about in terms of dominance 627 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: and violence. Uh, this is a trio of symptoms that 628 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: Pinker says can actually make for a political leader that 629 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: is a tyrant. And he says these are grandiosity, the 630 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: need for admiration, and a lack of empathy. But through 631 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: our identities as members of social groups, we actually see 632 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: our dominance play out in less violent ways, and this 633 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: is one of the ways that we sort of defeat this. Right, 634 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: we've got sports teams or political parties, for instance, and 635 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: this can also lead to attitudes such as racism, and 636 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: other discriminations. Right, the idea of hitting social groups in 637 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,280 Speaker 1: one way or another against each other people to varying 638 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: degrees harbor ultimately a motive for social dominance. And the 639 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: idea here is that the group that they belong to 640 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: is part of a hierarchy and they want their group 641 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: to always be on top in that hierarchy. So Pinker's 642 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: arguing that maybe the social dominance itself, it might not 643 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: be about race per se, but more about what he 644 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: calls coalition, where groups have evolved together and they banned together. 645 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: And he brings it back to that part of the 646 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: brain again into male aggression, and he provides evidence that 647 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: racism is actually more likely to target minority men that 648 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: minority women. So he provides some studies in this book 649 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: showing that that is actually the case. So racism is 650 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: more likely to take place between men of different races 651 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,280 Speaker 1: than between a man and a woman of different races. Now, 652 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: this becomes especially deadly when you combine it with nationalism. 653 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: So that's basically a welding of tribalism. It's a cognitive 654 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: conception of the group that you belong to, and it's 655 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: the political apparatu us of the government that we belong to. Right. 656 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: You combine all these things together, and this can lead 657 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: to the conviction that one's nation has the right to greatness, 658 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: that it deserves to be great, It deserves to be 659 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: on top of the hierarchy. Any lowering of that status 660 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: is explained away as malevolence, and it's applied to either 661 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: an internal or an external foe. Now, Pinker it comes 662 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: out with sort of like a positive take on this, 663 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: and he hopes that dominance will actually be tempered by 664 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: the civilized institutional systems that we exist within. So he 665 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: actually says the governmental part. Hopefully that and laws and etcetera. 666 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: Will will keep us sort of on track and keep 667 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: us from being violent. He says in roads for women 668 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: together with cosmopolitanism will help as well, and having a 669 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: scientific understanding of these biological processes will hopefully make us 670 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: more self aware about where are violent urges for dominance 671 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: are coming from. So to a certain degree, it's the 672 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: idea that that hopefully the thing that we will want 673 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: dominant and the way the thing that we will will 674 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: push all this longing for dominance into will be more 675 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: positive international models or species wide models for what we 676 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: can be Yeah, as the people. I think that's where 677 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: he's going with it. And in the latter sections, which 678 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: we'll touch on at the end of the episode, but 679 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: the sort of angel sections, both feminization and cosmopolitanism are 680 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: listed as being factors there. So let's cross our fingers 681 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: and hope that's the case. And he definitely provides evidence 682 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: throughout the book where you know that this episode isn't 683 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: about that. We can't cover everything, but the steep drop 684 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: in violence over the course of history is definitely on 685 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: display in this book. It takes some good six chapters 686 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: to show it, but there's a lot there. All right, 687 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: Let's summon the revenge demon. The demon it's all about 688 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: driving us to payback harm in kind fired up by 689 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: the rage circuit, right, so this is the third demon. 690 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: It is the urge for vengeance, and it's actually a 691 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: major cause of violence. And what's kind of weird is 692 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: we seem to celebrate it in our cultures, right, Like 693 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: everybody loves a good revenge story. I haven't seen John 694 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: Wick yet, but everybody talks about that movie is being 695 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: like it's the ultimate revenge film and it feels good, 696 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, it's the ultimate revenge picture, 697 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: but it's fun and and of the revenge trope that 698 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: the basic revenge pacing is something we can all easily 699 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: hop on board with. Yeah, that's a narrative that we're 700 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: familiar with and and as such, it's actually the motivation 701 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: for ten to twenty of the homicides that occur in 702 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: the entire world. When you take this to a macro scale, 703 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,919 Speaker 1: revenge is essentially the motive for things like terrorism when 704 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: nations retaliate against it, and then subsequent wars we engage in. Right, 705 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: So let's look at the neurobiology here, get back to 706 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: that rage circuit that we describe before. Let's say an 707 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: animal is hurt or frustrated and it wants to lash 708 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 1: out at its nearest likely perpetrator. This is fed information 709 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: from the temporo parietal junction, and that indicates whether the 710 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: harm was intentional or accident. All. Then the rage circuit 711 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,959 Speaker 1: activates and it turns on the insular cortex, which gives 712 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 1: us sensations of pain, disgust, and anger. And studies have 713 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: also found that feelings of revenge actually light up the 714 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: region of the brain that is associated with craving sweets, 715 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: nicotine or cocaine. So when they weigh the pleasure of 716 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: revenge over the pain it might cause, it actually lights 717 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: up the orbital and ventromedial frontal cortex, which we talked 718 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: about earlier. So those frontal areas seem to really be 719 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: what's keeping us from just going into blind like wolverine 720 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: hulk rage all the time. Uh. And that is interesting 721 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 1: the idea of associating it with sweets, right, because we 722 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: we'd speak of poetic language like the sweetness of revenge. 723 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: Revenge is a dish beest or of cold like stuff 724 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah. Well, I mean we have a lot 725 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: of other things about revenge too, right that there's the 726 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: old Chinese proverb that if you set out on a 727 00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: course of revenge, be prepared to dig two graves exactly, yeah, 728 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 1: which is thinking more with the front part of your brain, yeah, 729 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: than the rage circuit. So this all leads to the 730 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: function of risk, acceptsment, and deterrence, which you know is 731 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,919 Speaker 1: what Robert's talking about with that proverb. To convince your 732 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: rivals that they have any attempt to advance their interests 733 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: at your expense will lead to such severe penalties that 734 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: their gambit will end with a net loss. So this 735 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: is essentially like applying capitalism to revenge theory here, right, 736 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 1: like it turns it into sort of a net gain 737 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: kind of situation or risk reward situation. But that really 738 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: is how our brains way the factors involved. Yeah, I mean, 739 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: when you start looking at um, let's say, you know, 740 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: nuclear deterrence, Like that's basically the whole argument there. It 741 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: basically like any nation's nuclear deterren exists to ensure that 742 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: any nuclear attacker will have to dig two grades, right, yeah, exactly. Uh, 743 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: And this brings up something that I think has come 744 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: up on the show before, but I'm not sure. It's 745 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 1: called the prisoners dilemma game. And we don't have time 746 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: to go into the whole scenario here. Honestly, that would 747 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: be a whole episode. But the result is essentially that 748 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: people are more likely to selfishly defect from one another 749 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: and get a greater punishment than they are for cooperating 750 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: altruistically and getting a smaller punishment. So this is a 751 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: game of studies that has been run on multiple people 752 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: and every time it comes out the same. Theoretical models 753 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,760 Speaker 1: take that even further and they find out that over time, 754 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: in iterations researchers can theorize that the long term effects 755 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: of revenge on humanity are pretty complicated. Uh, and that 756 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 1: might be fun for us to explore in another episode. 757 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: But essentially, most people employ what are referred to as 758 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: tit for tat strategies and enjoy cooperation over the threat 759 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: of revenge. So that seems like a good thing right now. 760 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: This made me think immediately, what's the most popular superhero 761 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 1: team in the world right now? Suicide Squad. Oh, you're right, 762 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: that's that's that's even worse the Avengers, right, and Avengers 763 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: insinuates that their motive, their goal is all about revenge, right, 764 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: and that revenge primarily works as a deterrent if the 765 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: Avenger has a reputation for being able to carry it 766 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: out right. So, subsequently, this is why most not Avengers 767 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: like the superheroes, but just Avengers who are enacting revenge. 768 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: They want the target to know that they met out 769 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: the punishment. Right. Well, I have a serious comments question 770 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: that how much avenging do the Avengers actually get up 771 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: to and and is there like a ruling counsel that 772 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,479 Speaker 1: decides that the matter is vengeance worthy. I don't think so. 773 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,800 Speaker 1: I think that's just a cool name that they plucked 774 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: out of the air. But remember in the in the 775 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: Josh Weeden movie, I think he felt like he had 776 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: to justify the name. And so it was like when 777 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: one of their friends were killed, that was when they 778 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,919 Speaker 1: were like, Okay, now we're gonna have our revenge. Were 779 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: the Avengers, we have to avenge somebody, but for the 780 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: most part, we don't have an entire heroic or organization 781 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: based around and this often vilified but but sometimes celebrated concept. No, 782 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,359 Speaker 1: but you know, that would be a really interesting take 783 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: on doing the Avengers. I think that Marvel should hire 784 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,720 Speaker 1: you and get right on that. I like the idea 785 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: of having like there's a council that's like the Hulk 786 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: and Captain America and Iron Man and Black Widows sitting 787 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: around and they were like, well, I don't know, does 788 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: it really justify revenge? Now, revenge evolved to be a 789 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: deterrent um, So then we have to ask ourselves why 790 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: is it so common in the world if the idea 791 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,240 Speaker 1: is it's supposed to deter other violence. Pinker again points 792 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 1: to that moralization gap because people consider the harms that 793 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,719 Speaker 1: they're inflicting to actually be justified. And subsequently law and 794 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,760 Speaker 1: government come into play as implements to keep our revenge 795 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: in check. So maybe the Avengers need that uh, and 796 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: hopefully we internalize this even when the rule of law 797 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,359 Speaker 1: isn't around to monitor us all the time in real 798 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,239 Speaker 1: quick He says. Other ways of trailing revenge include broadening 799 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 1: your circle of empathy from those who you're close to outwards. 800 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: So most of us are automatically empathetic with our family 801 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,760 Speaker 1: and our friends, but try being empathetic with people further 802 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: out from you, or when your relationships are too valuable 803 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: to sever. Also, he says, a sincere apology can go 804 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,280 Speaker 1: a long way politically. We've actually seen a huge spike 805 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,839 Speaker 1: in apologies and reconciliation since the nineteen eighties. It's really 806 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: interesting when you look at the graph of this. Like 807 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: nations or like big religious organizations didn't used to apologize 808 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: to each other. It's a relatively new thing, and it's 809 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,239 Speaker 1: essentially to try to keep the whole revenge factor from 810 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 1: getting out of control. All right, Well, the demons of say, 811 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: of sadism and ideology are standing outside their medals, clinking 812 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: their their chains and whips dangling. But we're gonna take 813 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 1: a quick break before we let them into our hearts. 814 00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: Thank alright, we're back. What's that knocking on the door. 815 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: Oh that's sadism. Demon hear it, and it is full 816 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: of a joy for hurting. Uh. Now, here's the thing 817 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: about sadism. Uh, it is inherent to human beings, but 818 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,880 Speaker 1: it might just be a psychological quirk. So let's go 819 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,319 Speaker 1: through this and hopefully we'll find out that we're not 820 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: all inherently sadistic. Yeah, and this is definitely one of 821 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: those areas where this could be a topic onto itself, 822 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: but we're going to Uh, we're gonna run through it 823 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,799 Speaker 1: as best we can. Yeah. So too many of us, 824 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: sadism is not just morally monstrous, but we're also baffled 825 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: by it, right because there's no apparent benefit from sadism. Now, 826 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,320 Speaker 1: think about torture, for instance. Some people like to justify 827 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,840 Speaker 1: torture as being a method of sadism that's worthwhile. For instance, 828 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: if you have a ticking bomb scenario, right, a bomb 829 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: is about to go off. The only way you can 830 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,120 Speaker 1: find out is if you torture the suspect and they 831 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: tell you where the bomb is. But we actually find 832 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 1: that it's seldom instrumental because victims will really say anything 833 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: to just make the torture stop. Now, you look at 834 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: our past entertainment, right, it's full of sadistic acts. We've 835 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: got the Roman Colosseum and other blood sports. And then 836 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: you look at the history of serial killers. Now here's 837 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: where I'm not a hundred percent on board with Pinker. 838 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 1: He aligns serial killers in general with sexual gratification, and 839 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,280 Speaker 1: given what I know from researching the topic of serial 840 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: killers for things here at work, that's not always the case. 841 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: But maybe that's something we should go into in a 842 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: different episode. Serial Killers, though they're they're not exactly new, right. 843 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: They seem like they're a product of modern society. But 844 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,440 Speaker 1: it's been around for a long time. It's just taken 845 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,320 Speaker 1: other forms. Yeah, And I think it's it's one of 846 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,680 Speaker 1: those cases too where it's, uh, maybe it's it's become 847 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 1: harder to be really good at it given advances in society. 848 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,440 Speaker 1: And likewise, I guess the ones who are really good 849 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: at it are so good at it you never know that. 850 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,120 Speaker 1: That's the that the that's the scariest part. Yeah, So 851 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,319 Speaker 1: Pinker's argument about sadism is that, and you can check 852 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,360 Speaker 1: yourself on this and maybe you'll discover something about yourself 853 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,319 Speaker 1: and your sadistic or non statistic qualities. Is that it 854 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,319 Speaker 1: requires two things. The first thing is a motive to 855 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,279 Speaker 1: enjoy other suffering, and the second is the removal of 856 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: restraints that allow people to act upon the motives to 857 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 1: enjoy other people's suffering. So he boils this down to 858 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,240 Speaker 1: a couple of different things. First of all, the macab 859 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: that's when we have this morbid fascination with the vulnerability 860 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,360 Speaker 1: of living things. This example here is when you're a 861 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,560 Speaker 1: little kid and you pull the legs off bugs, right, 862 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,919 Speaker 1: or you're driving by a car accident, you slow down 863 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,359 Speaker 1: so you can try to get a look at it. 864 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: That leaves a lot of room for interpretation, because there 865 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 1: are versions of that where you can say someone's a 866 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: morbid artist and but they're not necessarily hurting bugs or 867 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,399 Speaker 1: even the whole slowing down for car rex. Anybody that's 868 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,879 Speaker 1: ever done any any amount of driving on on our interstates, 869 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: like you know that people seem to be gauging in 870 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: this to a considerable degree enough to you know, shut 871 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: down traffic in in the lane that is not directly 872 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,600 Speaker 1: affected by the wreck. So yeah, I think there's a 873 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,719 Speaker 1: there's a big tempt there on that first category. Yeah, 874 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: I'll throw this in just as like a qualifier about 875 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,200 Speaker 1: this book, which I really like this book. But there 876 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: are points where Pinker supplies a lot of evidence, he 877 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: cites sources, and then there's points where he just kind 878 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: of throws things out where he's like, here's my take 879 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,799 Speaker 1: on the world, and I think this was one of them. Uh. Now, 880 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,319 Speaker 1: he also pulls in two of the demons that we 881 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: previously discussed as being part of sadism, dominance and revenge. Now, 882 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,720 Speaker 1: in the case of dominance, it's sort of a Shoden freita, 883 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,399 Speaker 1: right like, we like the idea of somebody we want 884 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 1: to dominate falling down on a banana appeal, right Like, 885 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: it fills us with glee. Uh. And likewise with revenge, 886 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,480 Speaker 1: there's this idea of justice, right, so vingeance has served 887 00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 1: and justice is exactly Yeah, you did a really good 888 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 1: imitation of ghost Rider there. That's what I think. It's 889 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,399 Speaker 1: something along those lines. He's the spirit of vengeance now 890 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: Pinker again. And I think sexuality isn't exactly pinker strung suit, 891 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,319 Speaker 1: but he gets into sexual sadism here too, and he 892 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: argues that the circuits for sexuality and aggression are intertwined 893 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:25,240 Speaker 1: within the limbic system, and both of these respond to testosterone. 894 00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,880 Speaker 1: So examples, for instance, include veterans who described killing in 895 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,520 Speaker 1: war and they say like it's an actual sexual release 896 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 1: for them. Or the other example he gives is UH 897 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:40,319 Speaker 1: reports from SS concentration camps where commanders reportedly masturbated during 898 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,000 Speaker 1: floggings of prisoners. So he's making this argument that there's 899 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:48,319 Speaker 1: a there's an inherent connection between sexuality and aggression. He 900 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,160 Speaker 1: does it very briefly. I'm not a hundred percent convinced 901 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 1: along the lines of also that like all serial killers 902 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 1: are doing it for sexual reasons. Yeah, I mean, there's 903 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,560 Speaker 1: a there's a lot of room for UH for questioning 904 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,640 Speaker 1: and uh an elaboration there. I mean, for for instance, 905 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,200 Speaker 1: you can you can take into account the fact that 906 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 1: many people's different kinks and fetishes involve essentially violent themes, 907 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,920 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that they're necessarily violent people. I 908 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 1: feel like Pinker is maybe going a little just surface 909 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: level on this. Yeah, and he there are points where 910 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,360 Speaker 1: he sort of like brushes up against sado masochism and bondage, 911 00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:27,800 Speaker 1: but it's like I got the impression that it wasn't 912 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,640 Speaker 1: a topic he was like intimately familiar with, you know. 913 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,400 Speaker 1: Just I'm imagining pinker at like a dungeon literally brushing 914 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: up against people in a bondage thing. Uh. And it's hilarious. 915 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,640 Speaker 1: So he actually says, all right, we've got all these 916 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,920 Speaker 1: possible sources for sadism, Why then is it less common 917 00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,440 Speaker 1: than all of these other forms of violence that we 918 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,799 Speaker 1: we end up with. Well, his his reasons are empathy. So, 919 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,040 Speaker 1: for instance, like when he talks about empathy, is not 920 00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,399 Speaker 1: just talking about feeling each other's pain or inhabiting their minds, 921 00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,160 Speaker 1: but he's actually thinking about aligning your happiness with that 922 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,759 Speaker 1: of another being. And he says, this is more like 923 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,320 Speaker 1: sympathy or compassion. Yeah. And as we've explored in past 924 00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:15,560 Speaker 1: discussions about psychopaths in particular, there's this argument that with 925 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,440 Speaker 1: most of us, the empathy switches default on, and with 926 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,120 Speaker 1: these individuals it's default off, but can be turned on, 927 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: can be employed through the right you know sort of 928 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,759 Speaker 1: training and mental exercises in the same way that we can, 929 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:35,160 Speaker 1: we can and do find ways to tamper our empathy 930 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,400 Speaker 1: through you know, mothering and and uh, and the reducing 931 00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,000 Speaker 1: of another person to something less than human. Right, So 932 00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,360 Speaker 1: this is a perfect example of why it's important to 933 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:47,200 Speaker 1: be able to identify scientifically like what causes these things, 934 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,080 Speaker 1: so that we can then say, all right, we know 935 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,959 Speaker 1: what this is, we know the symptoms, let's look where 936 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 1: we think it is in the brain. And then you 937 00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,759 Speaker 1: have to ask YOURSELFLF is it morally right to turn 938 00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:59,680 Speaker 1: that switch back on how to bring in And we're 939 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,840 Speaker 1: talking demons, And if I know anything from the Dungeons 940 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,040 Speaker 1: and Dragons Monster Manual, it's that knowing the true name 941 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,000 Speaker 1: of a demon could gives you power over it. You know, 942 00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:13,399 Speaker 1: I think you just nailed the episode title. Another thing 943 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,200 Speaker 1: he says that curtails this is cultural taboo. Right, So 944 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,520 Speaker 1: mostly the world and its governments see torture as being immoral. 945 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,239 Speaker 1: That's why it's prohibited by the Eneva Conventions in the 946 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:28,760 Speaker 1: Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Humans also have a visceral 947 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:34,520 Speaker 1: revulsion and that inhibits us from hurting other people. Right, So, uh, 948 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,520 Speaker 1: just the sight or sound of seeing someone screaming in pain, 949 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,080 Speaker 1: it's enough to make primates averse to eating food. And 950 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,600 Speaker 1: this is a perfect point to bring up Stanley Milgram's 951 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 1: experiment for evidence that participants were visibly distraught when they 952 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: thought that they were electrocuting people they couldn't see, right. 953 00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,040 Speaker 1: You know, this this brings up something. So so the 954 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,400 Speaker 1: primates in the study had trouble eating during this, And 955 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 1: yet I was in the theater with you at the 956 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,719 Speaker 1: Alien Covenant, and I think people were eating popcorn the 957 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 1: entire time. Man. I was like in some of the 958 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,919 Speaker 1: more grizzly scenes, like people's jaws being sliced off, and 959 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,640 Speaker 1: and I'm just like, how are you just still taking 960 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,160 Speaker 1: in palmful after palmful of that delicious popcorn there is? 961 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,600 Speaker 1: You know, for me, there are certain horror movies that 962 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,440 Speaker 1: I can't eat during Texas. Chainsaw Mascer is one of 963 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:32,000 Speaker 1: those that movie does something like somehow it taps into 964 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,960 Speaker 1: that visceral revulsion. Uh, And I don't know how it 965 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,600 Speaker 1: does it differently than Alien Covenant, But during Alien Covenant, 966 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:44,960 Speaker 1: I just felt like everything was obviously fake. Um. But 967 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,319 Speaker 1: there are horror movies that certainly do that for me. Well, 968 00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,239 Speaker 1: I will say it's Alien Covenant was certainly very polished, 969 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:55,360 Speaker 1: and Chaw Masacre has that that that feel to it 970 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:59,120 Speaker 1: that you're almost watching documentary foe could be real. And 971 00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,000 Speaker 1: yet I'm sure they're people out there who have like 972 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:05,000 Speaker 1: a regular ritual of eating barbecue during TCM. So yeah, 973 00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,239 Speaker 1: that's that wouldn't surprise me. They probably do that at 974 00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:12,200 Speaker 1: the Alamo draft. That sounds um And you're talking about 975 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,160 Speaker 1: psychopaths earlier. So they've got this disabled inhibition against sadism. 976 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,400 Speaker 1: That's because they're amygdala and their orbital cortex shows a 977 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,160 Speaker 1: blunted response to signs of distress, so if they see 978 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,799 Speaker 1: a person screaming, they're less likely to respond to it. 979 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:30,880 Speaker 1: Pinker actually argues that, besides psychopaths, sadism actually has to 980 00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:35,080 Speaker 1: be cultivated over time, and his examples include, for instance, 981 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,440 Speaker 1: when you have older prison guards who participate in torture 982 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,360 Speaker 1: because it's something they've gotten used to overtime serial killers again, 983 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,840 Speaker 1: and then middle age crowds, not people who are of 984 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:49,360 Speaker 1: middle age, but crowds in the middle ages. Uh that 985 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,520 Speaker 1: they acclimatized to public sadism as a part of everyday life, right, 986 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,040 Speaker 1: like torturing people in public. Are these colosseums where you'd 987 00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 1: feed people the lines or whatever, right, right, So yeah, 988 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: in a way, it ceases to be a taboo. And 989 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,800 Speaker 1: it also this makes me wonder about about the cycle 990 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,200 Speaker 1: of violence as well. Yeah, an individual being more likely 991 00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:13,239 Speaker 1: to participate in the violence because some level of this 992 00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,760 Speaker 1: was perpetrated upon them. Uh, that might be a valid 993 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,400 Speaker 1: argument as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um. So you know, 994 00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,840 Speaker 1: you look at this at least the sadism, and it 995 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:27,320 Speaker 1: says something about us that's both terrifying but also a 996 00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,759 Speaker 1: little hopeful for the reduction of violence in human society, 997 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:35,239 Speaker 1: which is, you know, thankfully we have this natural inhibition 998 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,720 Speaker 1: that's built into most of us, and thankfully it takes 999 00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:40,839 Speaker 1: most of us a long time to build up a 1000 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:45,319 Speaker 1: tolerance to become sadistic. So this leads us to our 1001 00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,400 Speaker 1: final demon. Yeah, I see him right here, the ideology demon. 1002 00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:54,120 Speaker 1: This is when believers we've a collection of motives into 1003 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,000 Speaker 1: a creed and then recruit others to carry out its 1004 00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,920 Speaker 1: destructive goals. And man, this could be a podcast into 1005 00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,440 Speaker 1: of itself. So we're gonna really boil this down quickly. 1006 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:08,719 Speaker 1: Pinker's argument here is there's an important distinction because the 1007 00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,680 Speaker 1: body counts of history get way higher when large numbers 1008 00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:17,480 Speaker 1: of people actually work together toward violence. Now, what's dangerous 1009 00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:22,439 Speaker 1: about ideology is essentially it promises utopia, which prevents its 1010 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,800 Speaker 1: believers from weighing that cost benefit analysis that we're talking 1011 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,680 Speaker 1: about in the front of the brain. Likewise, it paints 1012 00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:33,040 Speaker 1: its opponents as inherently evil and deserving of punishment. So 1013 00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,680 Speaker 1: again it gets around that moralization. Yeah, this is the 1014 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:41,480 Speaker 1: classic holy war scenario totally. Pinker again turns to Milgram's 1015 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,640 Speaker 1: experiment as evidence of what we're willing to do if 1016 00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,680 Speaker 1: it's part of our social understanding. So it's worth remembering 1017 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:51,880 Speaker 1: that sixty of the participants in that study, we're willing 1018 00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,280 Speaker 1: to go all the way up to the maximum shock 1019 00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:56,400 Speaker 1: level just because they were being cold to do it. 1020 00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,160 Speaker 1: And further evidence from research by John Darley and bib 1021 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:06,480 Speaker 1: Lataines study on by standard apathy shows that people that 1022 00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,919 Speaker 1: might respond to an emergency as a single person will 1023 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,760 Speaker 1: fail to respond to that emergency if they're in a 1024 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,040 Speaker 1: group of people because if they're in a group, they assume, well, 1025 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 1: if nobody else is doing anything, the situation can't be 1026 00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,520 Speaker 1: that bad. Yeah. We there's an older episode that I 1027 00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,920 Speaker 1: did with with Julie where we get into this uh 1028 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,760 Speaker 1: at length and it's it's it's interesting to to have 1029 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,560 Speaker 1: that information and go in and do a CPR training 1030 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:33,080 Speaker 1: course because they directly play upon that. The whole idea 1031 00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: that if you ay, they're training you to be the 1032 00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 1: person that actually steps forward and starts to initiating CPR. 1033 00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,400 Speaker 1: But then also, you don't just say somebody call nine 1034 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,840 Speaker 1: one one. You point to someone and you say you 1035 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:47,880 Speaker 1: call nine one one, right, you have to be active 1036 00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,040 Speaker 1: in not passing right, and and it has and you 1037 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:51,720 Speaker 1: have to be specific because if you just say someone 1038 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,400 Speaker 1: do it, then the by standard effects going to take place, 1039 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,000 Speaker 1: and people are like, oh, I guess somebody's gonna call 1040 00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,959 Speaker 1: nine one one, and everyone just stands around hesitating while 1041 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: all time to expY. And this sounds horrible, right, but 1042 00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,600 Speaker 1: at the same time like it's again it's worth recognizing, 1043 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,120 Speaker 1: like this is part of human nature. If we're aware 1044 00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,000 Speaker 1: of it, then we can do things like apply it 1045 00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: in CPR courses so that we can save lives. Now, 1046 00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,040 Speaker 1: this leads to another famous experiment that, of course, is 1047 00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,240 Speaker 1: going to come up in this episode, the Stanford prison experiment. 1048 00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,400 Speaker 1: This is where participants were given faux roles as prisoners 1049 00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: and guards. The guards quickly took their roles way too 1050 00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:30,160 Speaker 1: far and they abused their power. The experiment had to 1051 00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,280 Speaker 1: be called off after six days for the safety of 1052 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:37,400 Speaker 1: the people playing the role of prisoners. And this demonstrates 1053 00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,400 Speaker 1: that when a group of people has given power over 1054 00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:43,560 Speaker 1: another group, it can actually bring out barbaric behavior in 1055 00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:48,280 Speaker 1: people who would otherwise never display it. So Pinker wonders, 1056 00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:53,000 Speaker 1: have we actually progressed enough since these studies, since Millgroom, 1057 00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 1: since the Stanford prison experiment, that participants would be more 1058 00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:00,440 Speaker 1: likely to disobey orders or to take advantage of authority 1059 01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,120 Speaker 1: in these situations. So he's essentially saying, if we conducted 1060 01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:09,720 Speaker 1: those experiments today with modern day uh, you know, inhibitions, culture, politics, etcetera, 1061 01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,520 Speaker 1: keep those results from being as high as they were 1062 01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:16,640 Speaker 1: the first time around. Now some people have replicated that, 1063 01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,120 Speaker 1: and you can look at those studies separately. They're also 1064 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,320 Speaker 1: in the book. He takes a look at something called 1065 01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,200 Speaker 1: the spirals of silence, and he says, this is the 1066 01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:29,000 Speaker 1: phenomenon of people just going along with the crowd, uh 1067 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:33,040 Speaker 1: and even on violence, simply because they think, look, it's 1068 01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,240 Speaker 1: gonna make other people in the crowd happy. So when 1069 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,800 Speaker 1: you survey a group of people afterwards after a violent act, 1070 01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,160 Speaker 1: the majority of them will say, oh, yeah, I realized 1071 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,880 Speaker 1: at the time that it was unpleasant or what we 1072 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:46,760 Speaker 1: were doing was wrong, but I wanted to make sure 1073 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:51,200 Speaker 1: everybody else around me thought I was with them. So 1074 01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:55,760 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of methods in ideology that keep violence perpetuated. 1075 01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:00,120 Speaker 1: We talked earlier about the moralization gap euphemisms. You out 1076 01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:04,320 Speaker 1: up euphemisms earlier as being a pinker thing. So he 1077 01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:07,840 Speaker 1: says euphemisms are one single way that our language and 1078 01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,640 Speaker 1: communication allows us to get away with being violent. Think 1079 01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:16,240 Speaker 1: of the difference between the terms collateral damage, ethnic cleansing, 1080 01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:20,880 Speaker 1: and just murder. Right, So the the sort of vagueness 1081 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,400 Speaker 1: of those former terms makes it seem a little bit 1082 01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,680 Speaker 1: more acceptable. He says, there's all kinds of other ways 1083 01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:31,920 Speaker 1: that we sort of, you know, uh, methodize our ideology 1084 01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:36,800 Speaker 1: in violence. He talks about gradualism, responsibility, how how distant 1085 01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,120 Speaker 1: we are literally from the violence as it's happening. In fact, 1086 01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,560 Speaker 1: this is one of my favorite quotes. He says, it's 1087 01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:44,800 Speaker 1: safe to say that the pilot of the Aola Gay 1088 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:48,440 Speaker 1: who dropped the atomic bomb over Hiroshima would not have 1089 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:52,600 Speaker 1: agreed to immolate a hundred thousand people with a flamethrower 1090 01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,360 Speaker 1: one at a time. So that's a really interesting take 1091 01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:00,480 Speaker 1: on the ideology aspect of violence. Uh. He taught more 1092 01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:05,480 Speaker 1: about demonization and dehumanizing victims, and minimizing the harm that 1093 01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:08,720 Speaker 1: you're doing, relativizing the harm that you're doing, and falling 1094 01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,520 Speaker 1: back upon requirements of your task. So, for instance, when 1095 01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:14,720 Speaker 1: people make the argument, oh, well, it was just my 1096 01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:19,280 Speaker 1: job or I was only following orders. So this leads 1097 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:23,280 Speaker 1: us to the angels, Pinker says he thinks the vaccine here, 1098 01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:27,800 Speaker 1: specifically for ideology, is to have an open society where 1099 01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:31,000 Speaker 1: people and ideas are allowed to move about freely and 1100 01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,000 Speaker 1: no one is punished for having dissenting views. That sounds 1101 01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,520 Speaker 1: kind of like what we're in right now, right, which 1102 01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,880 Speaker 1: might be why he argues that violence has declined massively 1103 01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:46,280 Speaker 1: over time. Now, what other solutions does he present us with. Well, 1104 01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,000 Speaker 1: like I said, the mere step of identifying these demons 1105 01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:51,880 Speaker 1: is supposed to be a step in the right direction, 1106 01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,400 Speaker 1: but it's followed by the four angels, and we're not 1107 01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,600 Speaker 1: going to dive as deeply into those angels, but let's 1108 01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:59,320 Speaker 1: talk about them briefly. Yeah, the demons are always more interesting, 1109 01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,440 Speaker 1: that's true, But yeah, you've You've identified the demons, you've 1110 01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,720 Speaker 1: learned their true names, given you the power over them, 1111 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:06,600 Speaker 1: and now you have to summon some angels to really, 1112 01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, whack them. So the first one is empathy. 1113 01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,440 Speaker 1: And we've recorded whole episodes on this one before. It's 1114 01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:14,560 Speaker 1: it's been it's pretty vital. This is the ability to 1115 01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,720 Speaker 1: feel the pain of others and or attempt to understand 1116 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,200 Speaker 1: that pain, and it gives us the power to align 1117 01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,080 Speaker 1: our interests with the other person. And a lot of 1118 01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:26,040 Speaker 1: this comes down to our mere neurons and theory of mind. 1119 01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:28,640 Speaker 1: It's a it's a vital tool for navigating a world 1120 01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,920 Speaker 1: full of unknowable minds. We have to be able to 1121 01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,200 Speaker 1: put ourselves in their vicious heads in order to dodge 1122 01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:40,360 Speaker 1: and maneuver in this bone swinging world of tribal horror. 1123 01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:45,160 Speaker 1: But of course that enables modern individuals, especially much more 1124 01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:49,200 Speaker 1: than mere Stone age machiavellianism, you know. So it's not 1125 01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:51,800 Speaker 1: just I have to know my adversary. It also means 1126 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,360 Speaker 1: you you can know your friends. It means you can 1127 01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,320 Speaker 1: you have a better idea of of what's going ahead 1128 01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,800 Speaker 1: of even the average person on the street, some stranger 1129 01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:03,600 Speaker 1: that you'll you'll never know that, you'll never even uh 1130 01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, have exchange a word with But thanks to 1131 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,480 Speaker 1: a theory of mind, you can. You can contemplate what 1132 01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:12,640 Speaker 1: their position in their worldview consists of, and then you 1133 01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,560 Speaker 1: can take it that step further and turn empathy into 1134 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:19,760 Speaker 1: sympathy or compassion, where you're actually tying your happiness into 1135 01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,560 Speaker 1: their happiness. Yeah, that's the final form of this angel, 1136 01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:29,440 Speaker 1: I think is that alright? The next angel is self control, 1137 01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:33,000 Speaker 1: so yeah, will power, and this ties into another key 1138 01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:39,320 Speaker 1: cognitive ability, which is known as chronosthesia or mental time travel. 1139 01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:41,840 Speaker 1: So it kind of comes back to what we're talking 1140 01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,560 Speaker 1: about with revenge earlier. We can weigh the outcomes of 1141 01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:48,320 Speaker 1: our intended or considered acts, and as such, Pinker's point 1142 01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,880 Speaker 1: is that we can anticipate the outcome of acting out 1143 01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:54,000 Speaker 1: on our impulses and inhibit them as needed. So if 1144 01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:56,000 Speaker 1: the cost is too high, the risk is too great, 1145 01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:59,640 Speaker 1: then we can just tamp it down. And this, like empathy, 1146 01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,280 Speaker 1: becomes even grander in the human condition because in many cases, 1147 01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,280 Speaker 1: we can live entire lives, maybe not too happy lives 1148 01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:08,600 Speaker 1: of of lives, but we can live entire lives and 1149 01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:14,600 Speaker 1: inhibiting perfectly natural impulses. So you know, there's a there's 1150 01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,600 Speaker 1: a there's solace to be taken in that fact, right, Yeah, 1151 01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:19,360 Speaker 1: and this gets back to I mean he mentioned a 1152 01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:21,480 Speaker 1: lot of these angels along the way and the demons, 1153 01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,480 Speaker 1: which is that the self control part really is wired 1154 01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:27,520 Speaker 1: to the front part of our brains. And so that's 1155 01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,920 Speaker 1: something that we can take a little bit of uh 1156 01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:33,400 Speaker 1: solace in, which is that, like we're actually wired up 1157 01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:38,080 Speaker 1: to out rationalize the rage portion. Now, the next one, 1158 01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,440 Speaker 1: the third angel, is moral sense. So this governs a 1159 01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,880 Speaker 1: set of norms and taboos that govern our interactions. This, 1160 01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:47,280 Speaker 1: for an everyday example, can be as simple as a 1161 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:50,400 Speaker 1: walking aboard an elevator and figuring out where you need 1162 01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,439 Speaker 1: to stand. It can be as simple as walking into 1163 01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,440 Speaker 1: a school dance, an office party, or any other social 1164 01:05:55,440 --> 01:06:00,680 Speaker 1: setting and figuring out the rules and the expectation. Where 1165 01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,840 Speaker 1: are people setting, what are people wearing? How much food 1166 01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:06,520 Speaker 1: are people eating yet? And they are how much of 1167 01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:08,840 Speaker 1: they eat? You know, all these little things, these little 1168 01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,840 Speaker 1: calculations did most of us take for granted. Yeah, and 1169 01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:16,240 Speaker 1: this totally gets into like the institutional idea and even 1170 01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,000 Speaker 1: like ties back into ideology right ideology is one of 1171 01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,120 Speaker 1: the demons, but in a way it's also one of 1172 01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,520 Speaker 1: the angels right because it supplies the moral sense and 1173 01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:27,560 Speaker 1: the cultural taboos for us to keep from being violent. 1174 01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:29,880 Speaker 1: This one touches on some of the discussions we had 1175 01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,800 Speaker 1: in our Leaping into the Void episode where we talked about, 1176 01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, the the urge to jump off a building, 1177 01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:39,200 Speaker 1: the rational urge uh when you're you know, in a 1178 01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:42,000 Speaker 1: high place. But it's it also also like I find 1179 01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:44,280 Speaker 1: myself in a gallery, for instance, and They'll be this 1180 01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:47,320 Speaker 1: famous work of art and I could literally reach out 1181 01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:49,800 Speaker 1: grab it and start licking it, and I can't help 1182 01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,600 Speaker 1: but think about it. I'm not actually, I'm not actually 1183 01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:54,680 Speaker 1: tempted to do it, but I keep thinking, like, what's 1184 01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:57,040 Speaker 1: the worst thing I could possibly do in this gallery 1185 01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:01,040 Speaker 1: to lick the painting? And uh, And there's terrifying about 1186 01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:03,440 Speaker 1: considering it, or not even considering it, just running that 1187 01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,200 Speaker 1: simulation in my mind. But what's keeping you from doing 1188 01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,840 Speaker 1: it is probably a combination of your brain and the 1189 01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:13,120 Speaker 1: social uh institutions around you, especially in the museum. Yeah, 1190 01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,160 Speaker 1: it's the it's the two angels of self control and 1191 01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,640 Speaker 1: moral sense are standing by me, holding me back. Uh, 1192 01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:21,800 Speaker 1: and but and maybe the fourth angel as well. And 1193 01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:25,200 Speaker 1: that's reason. This is the power to reflect, deduce, and 1194 01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:28,800 Speaker 1: quote guide the application of the other better angels of 1195 01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:31,720 Speaker 1: our nature. So reasons kind of the quarterback of if 1196 01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm if I'm using my sports ann no idea, I'm 1197 01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:37,040 Speaker 1: the wrong person to ask, but yeah, I'll go with it. Yeah, 1198 01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:40,200 Speaker 1: the quarterback then for the other angels and saying, all right, 1199 01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:41,920 Speaker 1: you run there, you run there, you hold him back 1200 01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,680 Speaker 1: so he didn't look the painting, and uh, an empathy 1201 01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:47,120 Speaker 1: will be standing over there, so he doesn't judge the 1202 01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,400 Speaker 1: guard too harshly. All right. And then on top of 1203 01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:52,360 Speaker 1: these angels, they don't have to go in and defeat 1204 01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,040 Speaker 1: these demons alone. They also have so you could say 1205 01:07:55,080 --> 01:08:01,080 Speaker 1: institutional help from the five historical forces. And these Pinker 1206 01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,720 Speaker 1: argues are the exo A genius forces that favor peaceful 1207 01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:08,920 Speaker 1: motives and are the forces that are largely responsible for 1208 01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:13,000 Speaker 1: bringing about a decline in violence. So the first force here, 1209 01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,720 Speaker 1: the first of the five historical forces that Pinker presents, 1210 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,559 Speaker 1: is the Leviathan nation state. So Leviathan. Here's a reference 1211 01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:23,320 Speaker 1: to Thomas Hobbs in a book Leviathan, a book on 1212 01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:26,639 Speaker 1: state craft in the structure of society and legitimate government. 1213 01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:30,240 Speaker 1: He's not actually talking about a sea most government and 1214 01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:33,320 Speaker 1: UH in in this case. In Pinker's argument, this is 1215 01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:36,640 Speaker 1: state UH and the judiciary that has a monopoly on 1216 01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,040 Speaker 1: the use of force. And yes, this gives it great 1217 01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,240 Speaker 1: power to abuse, but also to reduce tendencies for exploit 1218 01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:46,200 Speaker 1: of attacks and revenge. It can also dismantle self serving 1219 01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:51,360 Speaker 1: biases that make everyone believe their individually in the right right, 1220 01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:55,240 Speaker 1: especially when you've got that moralization gap at at a hand. Yes, 1221 01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,519 Speaker 1: Now the next forces commerce, which which this one makes 1222 01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:06,240 Speaker 1: me think of you know, Wu Tang's cream everything around me. Yeah, 1223 01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:09,040 Speaker 1: because think you're here is arguing that that that this 1224 01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:11,880 Speaker 1: is the positive sum game in which everybody can win. 1225 01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:16,599 Speaker 1: Trade in communication means that people are more valuable alive 1226 01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:20,479 Speaker 1: than dead, and so there's less need to demonize and 1227 01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,880 Speaker 1: less need to destroy other groups and salt the earth 1228 01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:27,000 Speaker 1: because at the very least your cruelty will take a 1229 01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:31,880 Speaker 1: commercial form as opposed to you know, a barbarically violent one. 1230 01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:33,760 Speaker 1: This is where we get those sort of like a 1231 01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:38,880 Speaker 1: libertarian arguments that like capitalism and commercialism is ultimately like 1232 01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:42,000 Speaker 1: the guiding force that's going to keep us civilized, right, 1233 01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:46,439 Speaker 1: because it's essentially tied into that risk rewards system that's 1234 01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:50,600 Speaker 1: keeping our brain from devolving into just utter barbarism. Yeah, well, 1235 01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:52,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's there's some some merit there. Now, 1236 01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,480 Speaker 1: you can certainly say that it can't act in isolation. 1237 01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,479 Speaker 1: It has to have these other elements, such as the 1238 01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,439 Speaker 1: next fourth, which is feminist zation. So this is the 1239 01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:06,200 Speaker 1: ongoing process by which cultures increasingly respect women. And Pinker 1240 01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:08,360 Speaker 1: argues that since males tend to be the violent ones 1241 01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:10,920 Speaker 1: are the more violent ones, that with the empowerment of women, 1242 01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:14,120 Speaker 1: feminized cultures move away from the glorification of war and 1243 01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:18,120 Speaker 1: they produce fewer quote rootless young men. Right. Yeah, And 1244 01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:21,439 Speaker 1: so as we're recording this, the movie Wonder Woman just 1245 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:23,320 Speaker 1: came out and has been a huge hit, and you 1246 01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:26,559 Speaker 1: can look at that as like a cultural touchstone right 1247 01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:32,040 Speaker 1: of our society at least progressing in the form of feminization. Now, 1248 01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:35,000 Speaker 1: there's obviously some pushback against that too, but Pinker's argument 1249 01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:37,760 Speaker 1: here is that it's a good thing, all right. And 1250 01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:42,920 Speaker 1: the next one is cosmopolitanism, And this is just about literacy, mobility, 1251 01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:46,439 Speaker 1: mass media, all of it come and get together to 1252 01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:50,839 Speaker 1: promote people toward an understanding of other people and quote 1253 01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,400 Speaker 1: expand their circle of sympathy. Right yeah. Whenever I think 1254 01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:57,960 Speaker 1: of the term cosmopolitanism, I think of the idea of 1255 01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:00,760 Speaker 1: um not at hearing necessary. They did the idea that 1256 01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,120 Speaker 1: you're a citizen of a particular nation, but that you're 1257 01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:05,120 Speaker 1: a citizen of the world, and then you're in it 1258 01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:09,759 Speaker 1: together with all of humanity and finally the escalator of reason. 1259 01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:11,880 Speaker 1: And this idea is that the application of knowledge and 1260 01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:15,640 Speaker 1: rationality can force people to recognize cycles of violence in 1261 01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:18,639 Speaker 1: the world and see it all as something that needs 1262 01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,160 Speaker 1: to be solved rather than one and they may even 1263 01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:23,439 Speaker 1: come to the point of realizing that their own interests 1264 01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:28,639 Speaker 1: and privileges shouldn't always trump the interests otters. Okay, so man, 1265 01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:31,160 Speaker 1: we've barely covered like half this book, but we we 1266 01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:32,880 Speaker 1: just flew through a bunch of it. So we've got 1267 01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:36,160 Speaker 1: the demons, we've got the angels, we've got the historical forces. 1268 01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:40,839 Speaker 1: This is basically like the primary layout for Pinker's big 1269 01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:45,280 Speaker 1: argument here. But not everybody agrees with this guy, right yeah. 1270 01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:47,640 Speaker 1: I mean this book was when it came out of 1271 01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,280 Speaker 1: several years back, was was a big deal and continues 1272 01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:53,160 Speaker 1: to resonate, And as we were discussing it, because it 1273 01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,040 Speaker 1: has a lot of truth in it, and it it 1274 01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:58,240 Speaker 1: does resonate, it does give us perspective on on how 1275 01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:01,400 Speaker 1: we're we're behaving and functioning as a as a culture 1276 01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:04,960 Speaker 1: and what direction we might be moving in. And Pinker 1277 01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,280 Speaker 1: isn't the only one to make this claim or to 1278 01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:10,920 Speaker 1: have made it. Joshua L. Goldstein presented a similar view 1279 01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:15,080 Speaker 1: in Winning the War on War The Decline of Armed 1280 01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,479 Speaker 1: Conflict Worldwide that was also in two thousand eleven, and 1281 01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:23,840 Speaker 1: both authors credit John E. Muller's book Retreat from Doomsday, 1282 01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:28,080 Speaker 1: The Obsolescence of Major War. And you can trace similar concepts, 1283 01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:30,799 Speaker 1: you know, the idea that we're getting becoming more peaceful, 1284 01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,439 Speaker 1: we're getting further away from war, at least back as 1285 01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:38,320 Speaker 1: far as the nineteenth century French Enlightenment. Now, American analyst 1286 01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:43,479 Speaker 1: John Arquella argues that another major factor that could be 1287 01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:46,800 Speaker 1: playing a role in the reduction of global battlefield casualties 1288 01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:51,800 Speaker 1: is the stalemate imposed by the greater horrors of nuclear war. Now. 1289 01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:55,400 Speaker 1: Pinker certainly takes nukes into account, but he says that 1290 01:12:55,439 --> 01:12:58,920 Speaker 1: hey past W. M. D's like poison gas, these didn't 1291 01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:02,640 Speaker 1: prevent more wars. Uh and and so nukes alone are 1292 01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:05,200 Speaker 1: not going to do it either. But of course nuclear 1293 01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:07,760 Speaker 1: weapons are far more destructive, destructive on a level that 1294 01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:10,840 Speaker 1: has has changed the balance of power. Totally goes back 1295 01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:14,160 Speaker 1: to that one sentence example that he had earlier about 1296 01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:17,880 Speaker 1: the flamethrower in the Aula Gay. Now, one of the 1297 01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:20,600 Speaker 1: critics that I ran across was English political philosopher and 1298 01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:23,840 Speaker 1: author John in Gray, and uh, we just want to 1299 01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:26,719 Speaker 1: read a couple of arguments that he made a regarding pinker. 1300 01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:30,759 Speaker 1: He says, quote, no serious military historian doubts that fear 1301 01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:33,840 Speaker 1: of their use, and he means nuclear weapons has been 1302 01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:37,759 Speaker 1: a major factor in preventing conflict between great powers. Moreover, 1303 01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:41,360 Speaker 1: deaths of non combatants have been steadily rising. Around a 1304 01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:44,000 Speaker 1: million of the ten million deaths due to the First 1305 01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:47,760 Speaker 1: World War worre of non combatants, whereas around half of 1306 01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:50,479 Speaker 1: the more than fifty million casualties of the Second World 1307 01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:54,000 Speaker 1: War and over nine of the millions who have perished 1308 01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,519 Speaker 1: in the violence that has racked with the Congo for 1309 01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:59,920 Speaker 1: decades belong in that category. Because we we haven't had 1310 01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,759 Speaker 1: big wars chew up so many lives, but we've engaged 1311 01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:05,920 Speaker 1: in proxy wars. He says, quote, while it's true that 1312 01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:09,000 Speaker 1: war has changed, it has not become less destructive. Rather 1313 01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:11,720 Speaker 1: than a contest between well organized states that can at 1314 01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:14,800 Speaker 1: some point negotiate peace, it is now more often a 1315 01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:18,800 Speaker 1: many sided conflict and fractured or collapse. States that no 1316 01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:23,000 Speaker 1: one has the power to end all right, that's not comforting. 1317 01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:27,280 Speaker 1: He also argues that depending upon casualty numbers doesn't take 1318 01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:30,679 Speaker 1: into account the equal weight of lives lost, say under 1319 01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:34,120 Speaker 1: the boothill of oppressive regimes and social structures. And he 1320 01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:38,320 Speaker 1: points out that the United States, for instance, maybe depending 1321 01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:41,680 Speaker 1: on whose commenting uh considered the most advanced society in 1322 01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,760 Speaker 1: the world, but it also has the highest rate of incarceration. 1323 01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:47,920 Speaker 1: A quarter of all the world's prisoners are tied up 1324 01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:50,240 Speaker 1: in that, and it disproportionately a number of them are 1325 01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,080 Speaker 1: African Americans. And then on top of this, many of 1326 01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:55,959 Speaker 1: the prisoners in question are mentally ill or their aged 1327 01:14:56,560 --> 01:15:00,080 Speaker 1: um or they're just they're they're they're they're unhealthy at 1328 01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,920 Speaker 1: this point in their lives. Especially, have to ask yourself, 1329 01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,360 Speaker 1: how does that play out in this perception of violence? 1330 01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,120 Speaker 1: Also worth note in the US has the largest military 1331 01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:10,920 Speaker 1: in the world by a considerable margin. Alright, so things 1332 01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:16,679 Speaker 1: that we like really excel at prisons, mental illness and militaries. Yeah, 1333 01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:19,559 Speaker 1: I mean basically that's that's That's kind of Gray's argument 1334 01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:23,320 Speaker 1: here is is yet to what extent can war catalties 1335 01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:27,120 Speaker 1: alone be the metric for your your discussion here. So 1336 01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:29,839 Speaker 1: Gray is like the cynical side of me again taking 1337 01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:33,200 Speaker 1: over and saying, not so fast, pinker, the world is 1338 01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:35,400 Speaker 1: a lot worse off than you think. Now. These quotes 1339 01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:38,280 Speaker 1: are from from Gray's book The Soul of the Marionette, 1340 01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:42,000 Speaker 1: A short inquiry into human freedom, and there's an excerpt 1341 01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:45,200 Speaker 1: from it that you'll find on on on the Guardian 1342 01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:47,600 Speaker 1: dot com. Include a link to that onlineing page for 1343 01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:49,720 Speaker 1: this episode. It goes on for a bit, but he 1344 01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:53,439 Speaker 1: only ends up talking about the Black Mirror of Dr 1345 01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:57,360 Speaker 1: John d. So it's it's worth checking out. Well, if 1346 01:15:57,400 --> 01:15:59,639 Speaker 1: you're if you're deep into stuff to blow your mind, 1347 01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:02,639 Speaker 1: terror to worre, that'll be an interesting connection. Now another 1348 01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:05,639 Speaker 1: note about war and violence. Uh, this is a from 1349 01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:09,120 Speaker 1: Ian magazines. Is There a War Instinct? By evolutionary biologist 1350 01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:13,240 Speaker 1: David P. Barash, and he points out that quote, violence 1351 01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:17,760 Speaker 1: is almost certainly deeply entrenched in human nature, warfare not 1352 01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:21,160 Speaker 1: so much so. He has this analogy that he grow 1353 01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:23,640 Speaker 1: that he that he draws on where he's saying that 1354 01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:26,519 Speaker 1: violence is like a marriage and it war, on the 1355 01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,479 Speaker 1: other hand, is like arranging a wedding with the bridal 1356 01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:32,920 Speaker 1: shower and the bachelor party and all of this. He 1357 01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,400 Speaker 1: says that it's a quote. It's safe to assume that 1358 01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:38,880 Speaker 1: neither employing a photographer, serving a multi tiered wedding cake 1359 01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:42,439 Speaker 1: and listening bridesmaids, nor trying baby shoot tying baby shoes 1360 01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:45,000 Speaker 1: to the bumper of a newlyweds car spring from the 1361 01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:47,920 Speaker 1: human genome. Although people are capable of doing all of 1362 01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:51,360 Speaker 1: these things by the same token, plain old interpersonal violence 1363 01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:54,559 Speaker 1: is a real, albeit regrettable part of human nature. War 1364 01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,360 Speaker 1: is even more regrettable, but it is no more natural 1365 01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:00,320 Speaker 1: than a bridle shower or the assembly line used to 1366 01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:04,240 Speaker 1: construct a stealth bomber, and he argues that Pinker exaggerates 1367 01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:07,519 Speaker 1: our pre existing natural tendency for war. He argues that 1368 01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:11,479 Speaker 1: recent anthropological studies from Douglas Fry and others proved that 1369 01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:15,040 Speaker 1: the predominant mode of human life again that sort of that, 1370 01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, broad analysis of what it is to be 1371 01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:21,040 Speaker 1: a human being that for most of that were nomadic 1372 01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:25,599 Speaker 1: hunters and gatherers, That war is a group based lethal 1373 01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:29,240 Speaker 1: use of lethal violence against other groups was almost non 1374 01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:31,679 Speaker 1: existent for most of this time. It only emerged within 1375 01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:36,200 Speaker 1: the early agricultural surplus period, and the right emerged with 1376 01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:39,400 Speaker 1: the rise of elaborate tribal organizations, and this is what 1377 01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:43,680 Speaker 1: allowed the warrior ethos and military leadership of sorts to emerge. 1378 01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:46,360 Speaker 1: Who's saying war has not always been with us, It's 1379 01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,160 Speaker 1: a recent phenomenon when you consider the full history of 1380 01:17:49,160 --> 01:17:52,240 Speaker 1: our species. So again, that seems like a positive thing. 1381 01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,280 Speaker 1: Now we just hit you with a lot listeners. That 1382 01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:58,960 Speaker 1: was like, that was like a sledgehammer of information about war, 1383 01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:03,720 Speaker 1: human nature, and violence. But we're you know, I think 1384 01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:06,479 Speaker 1: based on like this experience that I'm feeling, I think 1385 01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:09,160 Speaker 1: other people are feeling it too, just like every day 1386 01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:12,200 Speaker 1: it's like, oh gosh, like all these horrible things are happening. 1387 01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:15,160 Speaker 1: Is this is this what we're just destined to keep 1388 01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:19,840 Speaker 1: doing to each other forever. Pinker's argument is at least no, 1389 01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:24,040 Speaker 1: like we're proceeding, we're finding ways and we're understanding how 1390 01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:29,280 Speaker 1: our brains work, so that this will eventually slow down. 1391 01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:33,479 Speaker 1: It already is slowing down and probably won't ever stop, 1392 01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:36,479 Speaker 1: but it will be minimized. Yeah. I think the two 1393 01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:39,320 Speaker 1: critics that I mentioned here, I think they make valid points, 1394 01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:42,720 Speaker 1: and I think there it's important to consider the criticism. 1395 01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:44,519 Speaker 1: But at the same hand, on the on the same hand, 1396 01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:48,559 Speaker 1: I really like Pinker's argument. And uh, and not just 1397 01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:51,280 Speaker 1: because I feel like I have to have to live 1398 01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:53,240 Speaker 1: an act as an optimist and I can't really live 1399 01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:55,680 Speaker 1: an act as a pessimist. But but but I do 1400 01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:59,040 Speaker 1: think he makes a convincing argument for the most part. 1401 01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:02,639 Speaker 1: So listeners, are you convinced? Do you think Pinker's got 1402 01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:05,120 Speaker 1: it right? Do you feel better? I feel a little 1403 01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:08,400 Speaker 1: bit better, Pinker that that person who let me borrow 1404 01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:11,480 Speaker 1: this book and said you should read this the objective 1405 01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:15,040 Speaker 1: achieved like it did make me feel a little bit better. Um, 1406 01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:17,200 Speaker 1: So do we agree with this? Do we not agree 1407 01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:20,240 Speaker 1: with that? Maybe we agree with Barasche and Gray Instead. 1408 01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:23,560 Speaker 1: Let us know we are on social media where you 1409 01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:26,400 Speaker 1: can talk to us about all of your violent urges 1410 01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:32,320 Speaker 1: on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, or Instagram. And as Robert mentioned, 1411 01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:34,560 Speaker 1: the landing page for this will be on stuff to 1412 01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:36,479 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com, where we have all of 1413 01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:39,920 Speaker 1: our blog posts, all of our videos, and every episode 1414 01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:42,960 Speaker 1: of the podcast and you can always reach out to 1415 01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,160 Speaker 1: us the old fashioned way shoot us an email at 1416 01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:57,720 Speaker 1: blow the Mind at house of works dot com. For 1417 01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:00,240 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is that 1418 01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:09,720 Speaker 1: house stuff Works dot com. The bigg