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Speaker 1: A media.

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Speaker 2: Hi, everybody, it's James here. If you don't listen to

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Speaker 2: it could happen here, you might not recognize me. My

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Speaker 2: name is James Stout and I'm the guy who pops

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Speaker 2: onto this feed every few months to tell you something

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Speaker 2: very sad and then ask for your money. And that's

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Speaker 2: why I'm here today. A terrible earthquake struck me and

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Speaker 2: Ma today the day I'm recording this, which is Friday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty eighth of March, it was seven point seven

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Speaker 2: on the Rigter scale. We know of more than one

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Speaker 2: hundred deaths, but it's likely the death toll is much

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Speaker 2: much much higher. Lots of the telegraph and internet infrastructure

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Speaker 2: has been taken out by the earthquake, and the Hunter

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Speaker 2: restricts internet and social media access, so we don't really

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Speaker 2: know the full extent of the death but we can

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Speaker 2: imagine it will be very high. As one of the

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Speaker 2: areas most affective was Mandalay, which is the second largest

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Speaker 2: city in Memmah. I've spoken to half a dozen sources

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Speaker 2: in Memma today, people who Robert and I have interviewed before.

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Speaker 2: They're all okay, but they all shared how terrible things were.

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Speaker 2: They said things were as bad as they were at

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Speaker 2: the time of Cyclonagus, which would say terrible disaster in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight. If you would like to support

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Speaker 2: the people of Burma who are currently fighting against tyrannical

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Speaker 2: dictatorship as well as dealing with the consequences of this

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Speaker 2: natural disaster, there are a couple of ways you can

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Speaker 2: do so. I was actually already running a fundraiser on

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Speaker 2: my Patreon for MOBIAPDF. They are a casualty evacuation team

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Speaker 2: in southern Chance State right at the fiercest part of

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Speaker 2: the fighting right now. They don't fight. What they do

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Speaker 2: is they go and they evacuate people who have been injured,

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Speaker 2: and they provide medical services to internally displace people. They've

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Speaker 2: been doing this since twenty twenty one. They're incredibly brave

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Speaker 2: people and they've saved more than three hundred lives. You

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Speaker 2: can read more about them by going to my Patreon post,

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Speaker 2: which also includes all the links for donation. The website

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Speaker 2: for that is TinyURL dot com slash help hyphen Meanmar.

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Speaker 2: That's TinyURL dot com slash h ELP hyphen m y

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Speaker 2: A n M A R. If you'd like to donate

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Speaker 2: somewhere else, An organization that you can donate to is

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Speaker 2: to Free Burma Ranges. Free Burma Ranges dot org. They're

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Speaker 2: a fantastic endio. They've been doing a lot of medical

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Speaker 2: work in the liberated zones of BMR for a very

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Speaker 2: long time. They've also worked in Java and lots of

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Speaker 2: other place around the world where people need help. I

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Speaker 2: spoke today from FPR today as well, and he told

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Speaker 2: me that they were already starting to respond to the disaster,

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Speaker 2: so to donate to them Free Burma Ranges dot org.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much, well appreciate your support.

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Speaker 1: Oh, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast that

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Speaker 1: is happening right now to your ears. There's nothing you

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Speaker 1: can do about it, except for like turn off your

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Speaker 1: phone or your headset. But don't do that. Listen to

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Speaker 1: these great episodes that we have with my good friend

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Speaker 1: manyash Man gash Welcome to the program.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. Robert and Sophie,

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Speaker 3: I'm thrilled to be.

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Speaker 1: Here's here you you used to work at the company

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Speaker 1: that we currently work at, and now you're you're independent.

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Speaker 1: You're a you're a pirate, you know, fly in your

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Speaker 1: own flag in the middle of the sea. But the

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Speaker 1: sea is podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I mean a jolly pirate, I hope.

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Speaker 4: But Andy and you co host a podcast with our

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Speaker 4: boss and friend Will Pearson called part Time.

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Speaker 1: Genius Our Boss Friend.

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Speaker 5: All right, but friend and Boss. I notice how I

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Speaker 5: ordered that, and people should listen to it. It makes me.

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Speaker 5: It's like a podcast that'll make you happy. You'll like

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Speaker 5: get to learn a thing, but it'll be fun.

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Speaker 3: That is so sweet, it really is. It's like the

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Speaker 3: way that we used to talk in college, really nerdy

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Speaker 3: and lay into the night and just making each other laugh.

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Speaker 3: And it feels nice that we get to do that

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Speaker 3: still all these years later.

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Speaker 5: Excellent, Well, beautiful, you're not gonna you're not gonna feel

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Speaker 5: good after we tell you, uh, what we're talking about today.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're gonna What we're gonna talk about today is

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Speaker 1: not something that will make you feel good.

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Speaker 4: It's gonna make you feel really bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna talk about the history of quack snake

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Speaker 1: oil cures that kill children in an attempt to cure

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Speaker 1: them of autism. Oh my gosh, I'm not laughing at that.

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Speaker 1: That's that's that's horrible, which is why we're talking about it.

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Speaker 1: But it's such a thing to.

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Speaker 3: Be like and just like, like, have a box of

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Speaker 3: popcorn and listen to you tell me stories.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, ten thousand words of some of the bleakest ship

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Speaker 1: you've ever heard is about to be coming your way.

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Speaker 1: Congraund No, thanks for showing up this week.

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Speaker 3: I can't wait.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I'm gonna start this by saying, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about like autism quote unquote cures. There's no way

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Speaker 1: to cure autism, which a thing is the thing we

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Speaker 1: now understand is like a condition. It's a way some

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Speaker 1: people are but it is treated often still as a

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Speaker 1: disease that needs to be eradicated, as if it's like

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Speaker 1: a plague. And a lot of harm comes from kind

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Speaker 1: of the discrepancy between the reality of the situation and

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Speaker 1: how a great deal of people see it. And this

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Speaker 1: week we're going to talk about this specifically the Grifters,

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Speaker 1: a group called the biomedical movement, which is these are

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Speaker 1: all people who are adjacent to guys like Andrew Wakefield.

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Speaker 1: They're all people who sell different kinds of we're talking

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Speaker 1: about like chellation, therapy and shit, all sorts of different

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Speaker 1: like treatments and cures. They call them interventions, and ultimately

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Speaker 1: the impact of all of this stuff is that it

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Speaker 1: poisons a lot of children. Oh so the inciting incident

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Speaker 1: for me working on these episodes. Maybe you heard about

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Speaker 1: this story, man gosh Is. On January thirty first, a

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Speaker 1: five year old child suffering from ADHD and sleep apnea

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Speaker 1: was admitted to the Oxford Center in the Detroit suburb

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Speaker 1: of Troy for treatment. Now, well, that name, the Oxford

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Speaker 1: Center sounds great, right, That sounds like a legitimate place

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Speaker 1: of medical science. Right Oxford. We all know that's a

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Speaker 1: good name, and that means something real. Has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with the college, has nothing to do with academics

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Speaker 1: at all. It is instead a place where parents take

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Speaker 1: their children to have unproven medical experiments conducted on them

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Speaker 1: for profit. One of those experiments was the use of

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Speaker 1: hyperbaric therapy to treat ADHD and sleep apnea. Now it'd

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Speaker 1: be very clear hyperbaric therapy is a thing. It's a

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Speaker 1: very real medical thing, right, Like I think it got

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Speaker 1: its start in use. Basically, it's like pressure, pressurizing and

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Speaker 1: oxygenating like an area, a room, or in the case

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Speaker 1: of what this kid was, being put in a little

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Speaker 1: glass too. But it starts with like if people diving,

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Speaker 1: and when you're diving, particularly at like certain depths for

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Speaker 1: too long, you get like all of these gases building

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Speaker 1: up in your blood. And if you like surface, even

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Speaker 1: if you're doing it slowly, there's a certain point in

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Speaker 1: which you can't surface on your own slowly enough to

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Speaker 1: like have that stuff dissipate and not fuck you up.

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Speaker 1: So you go into a hyperbaric chamber and it basically purges.

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Speaker 3: For like the bends or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Essentially this is like people who

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Speaker 1: are doing like very deep sea like when they're welding

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Speaker 1: at the bottom of like ol rigs and stuff. That's

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Speaker 1: one of the things you use this for. But they

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Speaker 1: found there's other things Hyperbaric chambers are great for actually

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Speaker 1: over over the years because it oxygen, It like forces

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Speaker 1: so much oxygen into your tissues. There are people who

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Speaker 1: have certain kind of like injuries that won't heal, like

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Speaker 1: people with diabetes right often can get injuries and like

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Speaker 1: their feet that don't heal. A hyperbaric chamber can like

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Speaker 1: force the healing process to start. Basically, don't they don't.

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Speaker 3: They use it for like NFL players or like there's

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Speaker 3: some I feel there's some athletes do it.

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Speaker 1: Right, and there's some there's some discussion that there may

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Speaker 1: be some like benefits there. That's when we get more

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Speaker 1: into the snake oil, right, because most of much of

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Speaker 1: what hyperbaric chambers use for is not the stuff where

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Speaker 1: it's proven to help. You know, Again, there's maybe some

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Speaker 1: sports medicine benefits to it, and there's stuff like if

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Speaker 1: you have radiation injuries, hyperbaric chambers can help. So there

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Speaker 1: are some new uses. These are actually very This is

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Speaker 1: actually a very powerful therapy for certain proven things. However,

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Speaker 1: there's no evidence that it does anything for ADHD or

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Speaker 1: sleep apnea zero, just not things that it helps with.

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Speaker 1: But there's this widespread belief that comes out of this

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Speaker 1: bio medical movement for like trying to treat and cure autism,

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Speaker 1: that hyperbaric chambers are useful for that. And I know,

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Speaker 1: I said, this kid has ADHD in sleep apnea. Kind

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Speaker 1: of the gist of the story that we'll be telling

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Speaker 1: is an awful lot of these same people believe ADHD

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Speaker 1: is another type of autism, which is not the mainstream

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Speaker 1: scientific concept.

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Speaker 3: Understanding.

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Speaker 1: But that is part of why this gets lumped in

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Speaker 1: and it gets lumped in because you can then sell

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Speaker 1: hyperbaric therapy to more people with kids. Right, So again,

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Speaker 1: hyperbaric chamber chamber is pretty cool, but they're not useful

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Speaker 1: for the problems that this five year old kid, Thomas

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Speaker 1: Cooper had, And because the Oxford Center existed to take

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Speaker 1: money from parents with kids who had autism and other

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Speaker 1: stuff going on, they didn't really care about scientific rigor

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Speaker 1: or even basic safety protocol. So here's the thing about

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Speaker 1: doing a therapy like this. You have essentially like one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent oxygen. Now do you remember, mangesh, what happened

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Speaker 1: to that Apollo mission that back when they were using

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent O two inside of the spacecraft.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't seem like a smart it.

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Speaker 1: It caught on fire on the inside and everyone died

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Speaker 1: a horrible det Now there's a way to deal with this, right,

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Speaker 1: because there's a part of the benefit of a hyperbaric

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Speaker 1: chamber when it's useful is how much oxygen there is

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Speaker 1: in there and the way that the pressure works with that.

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Speaker 1: But when you have this much oxygen, you have to

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Speaker 1: take a lot of weird precautions to make sure that

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Speaker 1: everyone inside the chamber doesn't get incinerated. So, among other things,

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Speaker 1: if you're in a properly run hyperbaric chamber, you are

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Speaker 1: going to be only wearing like cotton fabric, right, because

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Speaker 1: wool and polyester can cause extremely tiny sparks when it

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Speaker 1: rubs against other fabrics or whatever in such an environment,

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Speaker 1: and normally you don't notice that, but the smallest spark

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Speaker 1: can cause an explosive fire that instantly burns you to death.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that you do if you're putting someone

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Speaker 1: in this, in addition to making sure they're wearing the

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Speaker 1: right fabric, is you put a grounding thing on their wrist. Right.

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Speaker 1: If you've ever built computers out of parts, you've used

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Speaker 1: one of these, and it's to stop you from like

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Speaker 1: a static discharge from fucking up this very precious machinery

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Speaker 1: that you're putting inside of a box. We put those

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Speaker 1: on a person, and that also reduces the risk. Right.

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Speaker 1: None of this was done in this situation. This kid

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Speaker 1: was wearing whatever, I think he was wearing polyester, right,

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Speaker 1: and he had like a polyester blanket to nobody really

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Speaker 1: made sure, and he wasn't grounded right, And so at

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Speaker 1: one point he turned over and there was a spark

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Speaker 1: and his entire body immediately ignite it. And the hyperbaric

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Speaker 1: chamber he was in was a small glass tube just

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Speaker 1: big enough for a person's body, so he had no move.

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Speaker 1: There's no escaping, there's no way to get out. He

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Speaker 1: is just in a tube of glass on fire. His mom,

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Speaker 1: who's sitting nearby, there's no medical professionals nearby, breaks tries

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Speaker 1: to break with him.

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Speaker 3: Now medical professionals, of.

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Speaker 1: Course, not, of course, not again, this isn't a medical procedure, really,

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Speaker 1: you know, yes, yeah, So his mom is sitting nearby

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Speaker 1: and she tries to break into this contraption and suffers

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Speaker 1: third degree burns to her arms trying to save her

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Speaker 1: little boy. Her lawyer later said it's literally the worst

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Speaker 1: thing any parent could experience, and poor Thomas his last

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Speaker 1: moments of life were being engulfed in flames and perishing

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Speaker 1: in front of his mother. He was certainly aware of

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Speaker 1: what was going on. Oh my god, and yeah, the

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Speaker 1: kid dies and just.

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Speaker 4: As aably horrible.

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Speaker 1: As an aside, every time this happens, the person dies. There.

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Speaker 1: This is a one hundred percent fatality rate problem when

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Speaker 1: it's in a chamber this small. If you're in like

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Speaker 1: a much bigger chamber. There's like some ways too that

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Speaker 1: you could potentially escape. But when a fire happened, When

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Speaker 1: this kind of fire happens in this kind of condition,

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Speaker 1: people don't live right, Like, that's just that's just the

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Speaker 1: way it is.

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Speaker 3: And so so so for these treatments, are are they

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Speaker 3: just coming like once? Is it like like.

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Speaker 1: Not nearly as much money? People do this as many

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Speaker 1: times as you can get him to pay, oh.

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Speaker 3: So so like, and was this the first time that

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Speaker 3: this kid had been there or had been.

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Speaker 1: I think this was the first time for this kid,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not actually certain.

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Speaker 4: And there's no medical professional nearby, nobody nothing.

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Speaker 1: No, there's usually someone generally like a retired doctor. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of getting a pot prescription used to be where

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Speaker 1: like you've got some guy he's not really you know,

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Speaker 1: he used to be a fucking e n T doctor

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Speaker 1: and he doesn't do that anymore. But he like sign

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Speaker 1: some paper work, right, maybe it comes by once a week. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: You're like, you're like, because it's weed this it's not

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Speaker 1: fun when it's a the when it's to burn you

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Speaker 1: to death chamber.

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Speaker 5: No, it's like, uh, you know, you go home and

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Speaker 5: google the person who gave you the prescription and go,

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Speaker 5: what fucked up thing did you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? What did you?

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Speaker 1: How many people did you get killed? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Why do you barely have a medical license?

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Speaker 1: Those were the days. My friend.

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Speaker 4: Menis speeds.

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Speaker 1: So Michigan, which is where this happens, had no rules

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Speaker 1: at the time, Michigan. Yeah, And there were absolutely no

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Speaker 1: rules about how hyperbaric chambers had to be like maintained

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Speaker 1: when you were doing stuff, like there's absolutely no standards.

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Speaker 1: The government does come in, they find out that these

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Speaker 1: the Oxford Center had old machines that were way past

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Speaker 1: the date at which they would have needed to be

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Speaker 1: refurbished to operate safely, and it makes matters worse. There's

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Speaker 1: like a because these are devices where people die if

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Speaker 1: they're not working properly. There is a life cycle indicator

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Speaker 1: that tells you how many times it's been used, so

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Speaker 1: you know if it has to be refurbished before further use.

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Speaker 1: And they had illegally dial back that number like you

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Speaker 1: do like a used car stealers do on a car. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but on the death chamber that burns children alive.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Further investigation by the authorities found per this USA Today article, quote.

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Speaker 1: The Oxford Center staff failed to meet the following safety

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Speaker 1: standards on the day of Thomas's death. Number one conduct

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Speaker 1: his daily maintenance check in pre dive safety check. Number two.

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Speaker 1: Have a medical doctor or safety supervisor at the Troy

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Speaker 1: facility at the time of Thomas's treatment. Number three. Provide

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Speaker 1: a licensed technician to perform the treatment. Number four require

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Speaker 1: Thomas to wear a grounding strap during his treatment. None

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Speaker 1: of this was done. Ultimately, both the facility safety director

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Speaker 1: and the CEO of the company were charged with negligence.

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Speaker 1: The CEO, Tamila Peterson, has to go down as the

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Speaker 1: most irresponsible single individual in this story. When it became

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Speaker 1: clear that this five year old had died in her center,

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Speaker 1: detective showed up. Because a five year old burnt to death, right,

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Speaker 1: You're gonna send some detectives in. And she immediately flees

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Speaker 1: the scene and takes her laptop to her young son

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Speaker 1: and tells him to scrub it. Great, good moment. Immediately

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Speaker 1: implicate your kid too. Excellent work, responsible parenting, We love

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Speaker 1: to see it. This is a helicauster parent, but in

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Speaker 1: the sense that helicopters are extremely dangerous and kill everyone

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Speaker 1: inside of him. So thankfully. Again, the youth these days

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Speaker 1: not great with computers. Her kid doesn't really know how

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Speaker 1: to scrub a laptop, and so it doesn't get scrubbed.

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Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote from an article by the Detroit

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Speaker 1: Free Press here. Still, police found electronic messages on Peterson's devices,

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Speaker 1: said detective Danielle Trigger. Great name for a detective, by

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Speaker 1: the way, including an exchange in which Peterson sent photos

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Speaker 1: of the boys burning body and wrote something to the

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Speaker 1: effect of, if my leg was on fire, I would

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Speaker 1: at least try to hit it and put it out.

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Speaker 1: He just laid there and did nothing. She is roasting

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Speaker 1: a dying five year old hopes, Oh my god, and

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Speaker 1: lady up. Also, Danielle Trigger, that's like a that's like

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Speaker 1: an Airport mystery novel series character Dave. That can't be

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Speaker 1: a real detective.

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Speaker 4: Saying that's Nancy.

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Speaker 1: It is very funny. Like if you are Danielle Trigger,

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Speaker 1: you just kind of have to become a detective. Like

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Speaker 1: you try to be a beat cop and there's like no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: You're going right to murders. Take off that uniform. You

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Speaker 1: are putting on a trench coat. Peterson's messages also showed

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Speaker 1: that When she was asked whether the company was promoting

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Speaker 1: hyperbaric chambers to treat a rectile dysfunction, she responded, whatever

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Speaker 1: gets bodies in those chambers? Lol, according to Jesus Christ crimes.

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Speaker 1: What the fuck, lady. So this is the story that

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Speaker 1: got me looking into the stuff that led to the

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Speaker 1: writing of this episode. We're going to be going back

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Speaker 1: in time from this point, but I wanted to start

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Speaker 1: kind of at the end because we're going to explain

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Speaker 1: why this is a thing, right, Why there is such

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Speaker 1: an industry for quack medicine like this that promises to

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Speaker 1: deal with whatever learning disability or condition your child has

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Speaker 1: by giving them dangerous, absolutely scientifically unverifiable interventions. And if

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Speaker 1: I had to name the root cause of all of this,

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Speaker 1: it would be the fact that autism has, for the

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Speaker 1: most of the time that it has been in use

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Speaker 1: as a diagnostic term, been considered like a disease, right,

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Speaker 1: like an illness, and generally a life ruining one. Right.

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Speaker 1: And I need to separate here the diagnost term autism

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Speaker 1: from what we know today as autism, because they're very

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Speaker 1: different things. As I said, in our episodes, we did

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Speaker 1: some episodes on a guy named Bruno Bettelheim, who is

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Speaker 1: a pioneering quack in the child development in child abuse fields.

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Speaker 1: In the thirties and forties, every child who didn't behave

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Speaker 1: in accordance with the desires of adults at the time

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Speaker 1: was labeled as autistic. Now, there were other labels that

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Speaker 1: they used. The terms psychotic and schizophrenic were used interchangeably

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Speaker 1: with autism in diagnoses of kids who had basically any

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Speaker 1: kind of behavioral issue up until the nineteen eighties, which

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Speaker 1: is when we started to gain a better understanding of

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Speaker 1: what those terms mean.

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Speaker 3: Until the nineteen eighties, Yeah, that's crazy.

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Speaker 1: And like you will hear childhood like psychosis used interchangeably

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Speaker 1: with autism a bunch in the mid century. And the

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Speaker 1: actual facts of the matter is that what we now

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Speaker 1: call autism, we know actually makes you less likely to

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Speaker 1: develop schizophrenia, although we really don't know why, right, it's

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Speaker 1: just kind of like the data suggests that people who

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Speaker 1: have been diagnosed with autism have lower rates of schizophrenia

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Speaker 1: than kind of the general population. But it shows how

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Speaker 1: off base people were about the basics of this stuff

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Speaker 1: for a very long time. And you could view the

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Speaker 1: change that occurred in the nineteen eighties as broadly positive,

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Speaker 1: which is autism stops being seen as you know, basically

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Speaker 1: childhood psychosis, and starts being seen as a disorder of development.

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Speaker 1: So it's no longer being treated as a psychiatric illness,

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Speaker 1: which means the parents of these kids start to deal

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Speaker 1: with a lot less stigma. And the fact that there

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Speaker 1: was stigma to begin with does go back to our

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Speaker 1: friend Bruno Bettelheim, who had argued that quote unquote, refrigerator moms,

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Speaker 1: cold mothers caused autism, Like if your mom isn't nice

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Speaker 1: enough to you, that's how you get autism. Not the truth.

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Speaker 1: But this also goes back deeper to Sigmund and Anna Freud,

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Speaker 1: who had positive view of mental illness that often blamed

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Speaker 1: the actions of the parents from most problems in children.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: In other words, they weren't seeing a lot of this

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Speaker 1: as like genetic is just kind of structural or chemical.

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Speaker 1: They were seeing this as your mom or dad fuck up,

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Speaker 1: and so you wind up with whatever illness. Right, And

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Speaker 1: so there was a deep stigma if you were a

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Speaker 1: parent with a kid who had any kind of developmental

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Speaker 1: disorder or illness, that you had done something to cause it, right,

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Speaker 1: which is obviously very bad for parents and not any

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Speaker 1: better for children. And one of the results of this

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Speaker 1: is that once stuff starts to change, this first generation

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Speaker 1: of parents who are starting to get closer to correct

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Speaker 1: diagnoses when their kids get diagnosed with autism also were

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Speaker 1: generally raised in a culture where parents have usually been

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Speaker 1: blamed for what happened to their kids in this way,

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Speaker 1: and that's starting to change. But they still have this

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Speaker 1: deeply rooted desire to prove I'm not why this happened, right,

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Speaker 1: It's a huge part of the story that we're going

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Speaker 1: to tell.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that still must be the case. Sorry, Like,

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Speaker 3: there's so many like high performing perfectionists, like parents who

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Speaker 3: have kids who who are autistic, and like one, they

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Speaker 3: don't want to believe their kids are autistic for a

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Speaker 3: very long time, right, they don't see it in front

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Speaker 3: of them, but the but that sense that you can

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Speaker 3: fix it or cure it, like is so desperate and

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Speaker 3: for so many of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's we're going to talk about that.

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Speaker 1: And it's also just the fact that at this point

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Speaker 1: in time, when kids get diagnosed with autism, they are

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Speaker 1: generally people. They're generally kids who they number one have

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Speaker 1: other things going on. There are different kinds of developmental

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Speaker 1: disorders and even physical disabilities that sometimes happen alongside autism.

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Speaker 1: It's like not necessarily a causitive effect, but like they're correlated.

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Speaker 1: And most people who we would understand today as having

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Speaker 1: autism aren't being diagnosed with it, right, because most people

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Speaker 1: who have autism are generally able to still live independent,

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Speaker 1: normal lives, but most people who are getting diagnosed with

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Speaker 1: it in these days aren't. So there's also that attitude that, like,

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Speaker 1: this is this is a life ruiner, right, That's how

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Speaker 1: a lot of and I'm not saying anything bad about

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Speaker 1: like people who do have more severe disorders or that

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Speaker 1: like life ruining is a good way to talk about that,

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Speaker 1: but that's how people are talking about it in this

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Speaker 1: period of time. So there's both this stigma and this

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Speaker 1: incredible fear around it, and there's also this attitude. It

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Speaker 1: started to change the idea that the parent has to

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Speaker 1: be to blame, but there's still this very American attitude

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Speaker 1: that someone has to be to blame, right, And all

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00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: of these different factors are the real root of the

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Speaker 1: biomedical movement that brings us in the twenty first century.

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Speaker 1: To RFK Junior and that five year old kid burning

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Speaker 1: to death in a hyperbaric tube. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: think I should also state here that increasing numbers of

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Speaker 1: people do not think it's responsible or good to talk

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Speaker 1: about autism as a disability or as like a disorder.

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Speaker 1: It's just kind of a way people are and I

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Speaker 1: tend to think there's a lot to that attitude. But again,

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Speaker 1: part of the issue is that a lot of the

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Speaker 1: people getting diagnosed in this period of time have other

435
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 1: stuff going on and have a lot of very severe problems.

436
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,479
Speaker 1: When I was working in special ed, all of our

437
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 1: kids were just describing me as kids with autism, but

438
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: they were all they all had a lot of severe issues.

439
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: I'm not just and I'm talking about like a lot

440
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 1: of them were quadriplegics because of birth defects. A lot

441
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: of them had like a lack of oxygen to the brain.

442
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: And so these were kids who, I mean, we dealt

443
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 1: with Grandma seizures every single day. These were kids who

444
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: were often very sick and often in a lot of pain.

445
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 1: And that is a lot to a lot of people's

446
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: understanding of the I'm just what autism is, right, which

447
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: is not accurate. Right. One of the things that we

448
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 1: have learned over the years. When I was teaching, and

449
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: this is close to twenty years ago, I think the

450
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 1: understanding was that something like a third of people with

451
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: autism had average or above average IQs. And every few

452
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: years that number has leapt up to the point that

453
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: now it looks like sixty percent or more. And I'm

454
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: sure the number, I'm sure it's basically the same distribution

455
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: as the normal population. And I'm not trying to reduce

456
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: everything to IQ But again, initially, the people getting diagnosed

457
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: and so are understanding of what autism is is deeply

458
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: skewed by the fact that most people who have it

459
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: are just sort of like still living in like not

460
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: getting a diagnosis and going about their day. Right. The

461
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is that like David Byrne and

462
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: David Lynch were never formally diagnosed with autism.

463
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, No, I mean there's a there's an article,

464
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 3: like an opinions piece in the New York Times this

465
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 3: week from the editor of the journal Science who has

466
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 3: you know that he figured out he had autism at

467
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 3: age fifty three and was talking about how, like, you know,

468
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 3: it's made him so much better of a scientist and

469
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 3: he sees things that other people don't. But also that

470
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 3: late understanding that like he's in this field and didn't

471
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 3: realize that that he had autism until such a late period.

472
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: And that's I think that's like the again increasingly the

473
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: way it seemed today and probably the right way to

474
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: look at it is that like, yeah, some people, it's

475
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: a different way of being a person. You're not like

476
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: it's not the same way everyone is, but like it's

477
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: not like an inherently like bad or deleterious thing. It's

478
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: just you're different. And so there are different ways that

479
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: you're going to interact with and view the world and

480
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 1: different things that are going to work when like we're

481
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: talking about educating people with autism, and again, our understanding

482
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: of this is still very much developing, but it's in

483
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: a very primitive state in the eighties and nineties. Right now,

484
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: people do know Asperger syndrome is a topic of discussion

485
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: by this time, and like the eighties and such, and

486
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: so there is an understanding that like some of these

487
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: kids are like, you know, it's this idea that like

488
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: some of them get superpowers, right, which is not really

489
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: an accurate way to view it. But like some we

490
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: do know that, like there are people with autism who

491
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: are like super like, highly intelligent and capable in specific areas.

492
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: But the general understanding, if you get this, is that

493
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: your kid is never going to live a quote unquote

494
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: normal life. Right, That's how people talk about it. So

495
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: if you're keeping track in the late eighties and early nineties,

496
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: you've got a couple of things coming together. You have

497
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: a generation of parents who are still used to and

498
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: traumatized by the thought of being aimed for their kid's condition,

499
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: who are also used to seeing autism depicted as a

500
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: fate worse than death. Feeding into this complex churn is

501
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: the fact that as the term autism grows to encompass

502
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: more people, it loses what author and doctor Michael Fitzpatrick

503
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: describes as a sense of coherence. Michael wrote a great

504
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: book about the biomedical movement titled Defeating Autism A Damaging Delusion,

505
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: and in it he writes the autistic spectrum stretched from

506
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: children who are nonverbal to severely disabled, to those who

507
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: are of high intelligence but behave strangely and had no friends.

508
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 1: The spectrum included children with Rehet syndrome, a neurodegenitive disorder

509
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: with an identified genetic cause with fairly superficial similarities to autism.

510
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: It also included children with atypical autism or in the USA,

511
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified, a label that merely

512
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: exposed the incoherence of the diagnostic framework. As one authority commented,

513
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: any classification system that includes atypical versions of one entity

514
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: as a separate diagnosable entity all its own has to

515
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: be next to useless as the base scientific progress, which

516
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: is a really good point, Like there's this thing, and

517
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: also the opposite is also the thing, Like it's like, yeah,

518
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: maybe we didn't have it right. Maybe that's not a

519
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: super useful term to be the describing ass. You know,

520
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: stuff like this is a moving target, and it's both

521
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: worth acknowledging, like the harm that the fact that this

522
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: is deeply incomplete and fucked up has on a lot

523
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: of kids and parents at this time, and also, well,

524
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: you were never going to get this right straight away.

525
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: So the confusion here is the final ingredient to what

526
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: comes next. The unorthodox biomedical movement, which is how Fitzpatrick

527
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: describes this movement that kind of terminates in that five

528
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: year old in the tube starts with parents who are

529
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: angry and shocked that their kids are as they see

530
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: it broken, and they're also angry and scared of the

531
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: thought of being blamed themselves. The clinical definition is flawed,

532
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: and this produces the opportunity for them to question it,

533
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: starting with rejection of the idea that autism is quote

534
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: purely genetic. Now, if you remember, guys like Bettelheim had

535
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: argued for years that autism was caused by refrigerator moms,

536
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: while science had increasingly come to the conclusion that the

537
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: roots of autism were largely genetic. Now, no one ever

538
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: argued that was the whole story. And in fact, an

539
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: interesting thing about autism is that identical twins. In cases

540
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: of identical twins both only have autism about ninety percent

541
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: of the time, which means there's some degree of and

542
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: when we say environment, that means something other than genetics

543
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: that's playing a role. Right. Fitzpatrick succinctly summarizes what happened next.

544
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: The biomedical activists emphasize environmental rather than the constitutional factors

545
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: in the causation of autism, which they insist as a biomedical,

546
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: metabolic or immune system disorder. While some activists seek to

547
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: redefine autism as a form of mercury poisoning or as

548
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: the result of some process of vaccine injury, others regard

549
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: it as primarily a gastro inter aloge disorder. To reject

550
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 1: the focus of the autism mainstream on genetic research, demanding

551
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: the redeployment of funds into the study of putative environmental factors,

552
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: and some of this is like a pride thing where

553
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: they're like, if it's genetic, that means it's my fault again,

554
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,719
Speaker 1: which is like not how you should look at that,

555
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: but people do too often. And yeah, so we're going

556
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: to be focusing on like the bastards and the quack

557
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: experts kind of at the core of this movement, but

558
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: we're also going to talk about a lot of these activists.

559
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to act like that's the only division

560
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: happening here, though from the flawed state of affairs in

561
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: the early nineteen nineties, you also have like, that's not

562
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: the only thing happening within kind of the community of

563
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: people with autism. In the early nineteen nineties, you start

564
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: to have the first neurodiversity activists, and these are people

565
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: like Jim Sinclaire, who was a man with autism who

566
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: wrote in nineteen ninety three this kind of very beautiful

567
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: piece in which he talked about, like, I understand why

568
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: parents might mourn not having the child they had expect

569
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: to have. But then he went on to write, quote,

570
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: we need and deserve families who can see us and

571
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: value us for ourselves, not families whose vision of us

572
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: is obscured by the ghosts of children who never lived.

573
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: Grieve if you must, for your own lost dreams, but

574
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: don't mourn for us. We are alive, we are real,

575
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: and we're here waiting for you. And I yeah, we're

576
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: not going to talk about that side of the story enough.

577
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: Because this is a podcast about bad people. I thought

578
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: it would be an error not to include that.

579
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 3: Really beautiful actually, like, yeah, you think about these parents. Obviously,

580
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 3: they spend so much time warning the kids that they

581
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 3: thought they'd have right.

582
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: Right, and trying to fix them that they're not. Actually

583
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: they're engaging with appreciating and raising their child.

584
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: I mean, you need like kids who don't play like

585
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: the high school jock who's like, kid doesn't play soccer

586
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 3: as well as he does or whatever, right, like, and

587
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 3: you think about the difference between you know, that expectation

588
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 3: versus someone severely autistic.

589
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: It this thing that happened, and it's the So much

590
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: of the root of the modern fascist movement is like

591
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: the parental rights movement quote unquote, which is really just

592
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: people who want to have this ancient Roman understanding of

593
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: like I get to choose exactly who my kid becomes,

594
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: and no, you don't, no one ever has. That's not

595
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: how people are. Like you're gonna have a kid, you

596
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: really need to accept that they're just gonna do whatever.

597
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 3: Your kids zero.

598
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: You cannot make them into a specific You can if

599
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: you're generally you can make sure that like they're not

600
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: like a murderer or a horrible criminal. Like that's really

601
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: your goal is making sure they have like empathy and

602
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: like the ability to understand how to survive in the world.

603
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 3: That's it. Well, you should teach them to scrub a

604
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 3: computer early imagine you.

605
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: Gotta teach them to be those files. My god, come

606
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: on now, So we're not anyway, we're not gonna be

607
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: talked about the Jimsenclaires and like the neurodiversity movement nearly

608
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: enough in here, but I wanted to kind of bring

609
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: that side of it into this because it would be

610
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: irresponsible not to. Now let's get back to the cranks,

611
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: you know first, But first, you know it was not

612
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:25,719
Speaker 1: a crank our sponsors. Ah, we're back boy. I love

613
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: that hyperbaric chamber. At I was thinking these things were

614
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: death traps until they said fifteen percent of where whatever

615
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: the fuck you want.

616
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 3: Let's use the code yeah polyester.

617
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

618
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 4: So.

619
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: One of the first and most important organizations in this

620
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: history is the Autism Research Institute, which was founded in

621
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven and through its long life has effectively

622
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: been a couple of different kinds of organization. But in

623
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: its early days, at the start, it was founded by

624
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: a doctor named Bernard Rimland. Rimland was a research psychologist

625
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: with a son who was diagnosed with autism back in

626
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: like the fifties, right when it was blamed on cold

627
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: and distant refrigerator moms. Now, Rimland is not a sympathetic

628
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: character in this story. He's a bad guy, but he

629
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: comes from a sympathetic start, which is that his son

630
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: gets diagnosed with autism, which is blamed on the mom

631
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: being cold, and he's like, that's not my wife, right,

632
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: Like this this is not on her, and he's right,

633
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: not on his wife. Yeah, she was a loving mother,

634
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure. And so he comes to the very reasonable

635
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: belief that, like, well, then that's obviously this doesn't explain autism.

636
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: We're wrong about what this is. Unfortunately, he decides that

637
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: autism is caused by biomechanical issues triggered by what he

638
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: termed environmental assaults. And this is what this is the

639
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: core of the anti VAXX movement, right, this is the

640
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: birth of it, the very before they're really even focusing

641
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: as much on that. Just this understanding that this is

642
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: something environmental has fucked with my kid, and that's why

643
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: they've got this, right, that's where it all starts. And

644
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: Rimlin is a big anti vax guy, but that's like

645
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: the origin of it. Now again in this in the

646
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: initial era sixty seven, he's not being a crank for

647
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: theorizing this because we don't know anything, right, and some

648
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: of his observations are accurate. The issue is that Rimlin

649
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: continued to hold to his belief about environmental contagions long

650
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: after the evidence put light to that. In between serving

651
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: as the technical advisor on the nineteen eighty eight film Rainman,

652
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: he concluded that vaccines were the quote prime suspect as

653
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: the cause of autism due to the inclusion of a

654
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: mercury based preservative known as Theomersaul. So again, this is

655
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: the Rainman guy. And in nineteen ninety five, the Autism

656
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,959
Speaker 1: Research Institute launched a program known as Defeat Autism Now

657
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: exclamation Point or just DAN with an exclamation point. That

658
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: exclamation point is critical. It's always used in there and autocorrect.

659
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: What's me to have the next word be a new sentence?

660
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: Which is very annoying for me. So Dan's goal is

661
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: to put together parents with physicians and researchers to collectively

662
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: explore new treatments and cures with the ultimate goal of

663
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: defeating autism, a condition that cannot be defeated, because again,

664
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: it's just the way they are. I am not going

665
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: to make that point every time this comes up, but

666
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: I do feel the need to emphasize it here at

667
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: the jump. So DAN is the tumor which would eventually

668
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: metastasize into our entire fantasy medicine industrial complex, which itself

669
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: is a major booster and contributor to the modern fascist movement.

670
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: You can tie the presidency of Donald Trump directly to

671
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: this organization and the things that inculcated in our society.

672
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: So the physicians who are interested in DAN were not,

673
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: as a rule, people in the I don't know how

674
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: else to pronounce it.

675
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 3: Every time you say it, I was thinking about the

676
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 3: exclamation points. I'm glad you're also making the audience the comment.

677
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 5: It's also going to really be a jolt for editor.

678
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: So the physicians who were interested in DAN were not,

679
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: as a rule, people of the prime of their career,

680
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: functioning within their chief area of medical competence. A doctor

681
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: is not a doctor, right. It's one of those things.

682
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: If you've got a doctor who specializes in heart surgery,

683
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: he could be a great heart surgeon. He probably knows

684
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,240
Speaker 1: how to deliver a baby, like intellectually, but he wouldn't

685
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: be your first choice, you know, like again, better than

686
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: a regular dude. Are you treat about doctor? I'm not

687
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: even shitting on doctor. I'm just saying, like, doctors have specialties,

688
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: right of course, because medicine is a big field. Again,

689
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: a guy who's specialty is like you're urinary tract. You

690
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: might not want like examining your eyes because he's not

691
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: an actometrist. Not as specialty. But with stuff like this,

692
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: they function on pot doctor rules, which is, hey, did

693
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: you age ot, are you retired, are you tired of

694
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: being like a family practitioner or whatever? Come into this field.

695
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: Say you're an autism expert. Now you'll get called a

696
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: hero for prescribing anything, and you can keep getting money

697
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: for not actually doing any work. Right now, When young

698
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: medical professionals who have some actual relevant expertise get involved,

699
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: it's generally because they have kids who get diagnosed with autism, right,

700
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: and so some of these people are like psychotherapists, psychiatrists

701
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. There are some neurologists who get

702
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: involved in this, but for the most part, it's like

703
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: older doctors who are kind of aging out of the

704
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: profession and looking for a grift. You know, again, we

705
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: should have kept the pot doctor system going as like

706
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: a just a way to keep these people off the streets. Right,

707
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: It's like a boys and girls club for old doctors. No, no,

708
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: let them give out pot prescriptions.

709
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

710
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: So these experts are not mostly doctors though, and in fact,

711
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: among the most influential of them is former school teacher

712
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: Sue Palmer, author of the book Toxic Childhood, published in

713
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, and she is one of the

714
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: first people to look at this massive surge and diagnoses

715
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: of autism ADHD in other conditions, not as evidence that

716
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: we were beginning to understand these conditions and thus correctly

717
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: recognized how many people had them, but that there had

718
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 1: been a quote special needs explosion that must have been

719
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,959
Speaker 1: caused by an environmental factor. She believes it's either jug

720
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: food or video games generally, right, these different theories people have.

721
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 1: Palmer is one of the first experts who lumps autism

722
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: in with ADHD as well as dyspraxia, dyslexia, and several

723
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: other learning disorders. And again, this is why I started

724
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: with the story that kid is not diagnosed with autism,

725
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: it burns to death. He's diagnosed with ADHD. But that

726
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: is a death related to this movement that is sparked

727
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 1: by fear of autism, right, because they just start lumping

728
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: in with every other thing that we're now diagnosing properly

729
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: more often because they think, wow, so many more kids

730
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: have this. No, probably about the same amount have it

731
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 1: who always have. We just know what it is now,

732
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: you know. Another biomedical practitioner, Kenneth Bach lumped autism and

733
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: ADHD together with asthma and allergies and labeled them before

734
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: a disorders in both cases, what these people are doing,

735
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: these experts are doing, is mixing autism with things that

736
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: aren't autism in a way that allows practitioners to make

737
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: the case that there's been an explosion in what they

738
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 1: term developmental disorders. It looks even more stark if you're

739
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 1: Matt lumping all of these things together as the same

740
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: kind of thing, right, And thus they can make the

741
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: cases that there's a crisis that only bold experimental medicine,

742
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 1: like they happen to be selling contrite right. In other words,

743
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: by mixing all these things together, they're creating a grouping

744
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: of potential clients that include basically every parent, because almost

745
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 1: every parent is going to have a kid who has

746
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: one of these things. Right.

747
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 3: That is incredible, Yeah, such a grift.

748
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like if you're a mechanic and you're like, yeah,

749
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: you know, I deal with I got this great way

750
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: of fixing busted tires and also you know, bad spark plugs,

751
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: bucked up transmissions and yeah, and it's more of being

752
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: an incense stick over your cheek. So bring it in

753
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: as Fitzpatrick, writes Brian Jepson, another defeat autism now practitioner,

754
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 1: suggests that autism, which characterizes as both an environmental illness

755
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: and a multi organ metabolic disease, has increased because the

756
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: general toxic load in the environment has risen to a

757
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: point where so many of us have reached our genetically

758
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: determined toxic dipping point that the human species has now

759
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: urged edged into a state of what we might call

760
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: a herd vulnerability. Though everybody is considered to be at

761
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 1: risk from environmental dangers, campaigners believe that children are more

762
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: vulnerable to than adults, and that babies are the most

763
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: vulnerable of all. And this is a quick aside because

764
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: mercury is probably the most common thing people blame for this.

765
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: They took that mercury based preservative out of vaccines in

766
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: like two thousand and one. Rates of autism diagnoses continued

767
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: to rise after we stopped because it didn't It wasn't

768
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: doing anything. It has nothing to do with the vaccines.

769
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: We're just getting better at diagnosing it, all of it.

770
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: Human history has been filled with people with autism, we

771
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: just didn't call it that it is.

772
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 3: It is amazing that like like obviously like mercury poisoning

773
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 3: and mad hatters and all the like. You know that

774
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 3: mercury has effects on Oh yeah, it's.

775
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 1: It's had back when they put it in the hats.

776
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: It definitely on the population.

777
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: Yes, But we're like we're totally cool with like botox

778
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 3: being botulism. But yeah, like can't differentiate between like the

779
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 3: mercury in the vaccine.

780
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: No, it's also like chemicals are bad. But also I'll

781
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: shoot whatever into my kid if a doctor, if a

782
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: fake doctor, says it'll treat their autism. It's like, we're

783
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: scared of vaccines and you're putting these other shit in

784
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: your baby, Like, what is wrong with you?

785
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 3: I know, I know.

786
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: Now, I think this all kind of helps you explain

787
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: why that little boy with ADHD dying in a hyperbaric

788
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: chamber is relevant this episode. It's unclear when hyperbaric therapy

789
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: first started gaining popularity as and autism treatment, but by

790
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: the late nineties to the early two thousands it was

791
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: well underway as a practice among biomedical experts. That's when

792
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: they start doing this.

793
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 4: Now.

794
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: The most fucked up part of all of this is

795
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: that hyperbaric therapy is less dangerous than a lot of

796
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: the treatments that get prescribed because there are some potential

797
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: negative consequences when it's done properly right. You can have

798
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: some issues with it because it's super pressurized, but generally

799
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: people are fine after hyperbaric therapy, right, if it's done

800
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: properly right. This is not true of a lot of

801
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: the drug based treatment regimens that develop over the years.

802
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: The first, Yeah.

803
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 3: When you mentioned h hyperbaric therapy, like, I know there

804
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 3: are so many like wealthy families sure have like tents

805
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 3: and stuff in their house and they're trying to reverse

806
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 3: their kids' autism. And it's like like that, I had

807
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 3: never heard of the glass tube.

808
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: That is just yeah, fine, it's a nightmare. It's one

809
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: of I know, like Brian Johnson that Lift Forever guy

810
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: does have baric shit, And fine, he's in his late forties,

811
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: he's got five hundred million dollars, he gets to make choice.

812
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: He's more. I believe adults, if you want to put

813
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: yourself in the death chamber and potentially burn to death,

814
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 1: I don't give a fuck, do it right. And people

815
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: should be allowed to do a heroin if they want to.

816
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: Don't put your five year old. In these things, they

817
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 1: can't make that choice. So the first of these autism

818
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: drug remedies that that really takes hold is known by

819
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: the incredibly sustnamed Secretin. Now, Secretin is a real thing.

820
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: It's not like some made up bullshit. It's a hormone

821
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: that stimulates the secretion of digestive fluids from the pancreas. Right,

822
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: it's an and giving people that hormone can be useful

823
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: for a number of things. Uh. Part of why they're

824
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: there's there in. It's legitimate researchers who think, well, this

825
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: might be helpful in treating some of the things that

826
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: are correlated with autism, because people with autism often have

827
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: a number of different GI tract issues, right, it's very common.

828
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I don't think we really know why,

829
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: because again we don't we really have a Still to

830
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 1: this day, we don't know very much about autism compared

831
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: to like what we would like to know. But this

832
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 1: is a thing, and so the idea that like, Okay,

833
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: well this hormone that stimulates digestive fluids from the pancreas

834
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: that might help with some of these side issues not

835
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: an unreasonable point. Right, So there's a they carry out

836
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 1: a test because there's a I think a mom who

837
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: gives some of this to her kid and she claims

838
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: a pretty dramatic effect. So they bring in like two

839
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: other kids and they do like an initial study on

840
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: this stuff. And again just three kids, and this is

841
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: an unblinded study, right, so everyone getting the drug knows

842
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: they're getting the drug, both the researchers and the people

843
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 1: getting it, which is like, again, if you're kind of

844
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: just housing initially, it's not you shouldn't base anything on this.

845
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: If things have been done properly and they've done this

846
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: first one, then like, okay, maybe we should we need

847
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 1: to do a blinded study now, which does actually happen.

848
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 1: If that's all that had happened, I'd say, and nothing wrong.

849
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: You know, you do this first thing that shows there

850
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: might be something to look into. You do a better

851
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: study with more kids that's blinded, next whatever. Unfortunately, the

852
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 1: media being what it is, always looking for a story,

853
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: and there being a lot of parents with kids who

854
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: are interested in this, immediately run with the whole. There's

855
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: been a miracle chair found. Right as soon as this

856
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 1: unblinded study comes out and the biomedical treatment activists in

857
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: DAN believe that they're dealing with a calamity. Right to them,

858
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: autism is a disaster that is severe in time sensitive right.

859
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 3: Right.

860
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 1: If you don't really get to fixing this in your

861
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: kid by the time they're three or four, you have

862
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: a ticking clock and they're just going to be fucked forever. Right,

863
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: So you really have to jump out. You can't wait

864
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: for science. Right. And so our friend doctor Rimland, who's

865
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: the founder of DAN, takes out a patent on secretin

866
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: before any other studies are done.

867
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 3: Sorry, so he gives this past exclamation.

868
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: He takes out a patent on this this this hormone

869
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: as an autism treatment, and he sells it to a

870
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: company called Repligon. Again, so many evil forms what.

871
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 4: Is happening here?

872
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: And always people like the farmer industry is evil, but

873
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: not repligion, okay, man, No trust his bullishness on this

874
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,879
Speaker 1: hormone is based entirely on one mop this lady Victoria Beck,

875
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: who claims that her child shows dramatic improvement with secret In,

876
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: such improvement that doctor Rimlin describes Secretin as the most

877
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: important development in the history of autism. Months later, in

878
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen ninety nine, secretin makes its way

879
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: over to the United Kingdom, where TV news crews film

880
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: a boy with autism before and after Secret and injections,

881
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: showing dramatic change. Now, UK media is not the only

882
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, not alone in this behavior, as writer Nancy

883
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: Schute notes in a piece for Scientific American media outlets

884
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: include in Good Morning America and Ladies Home Journal recounted parents'

885
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: joyous ch tales of children's transformed. Now, as is always

886
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: the case with this, that video was facilitated by a

887
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: shady clinic offering a lot of trendy bullshit medicine. Right,

888
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: that kid who gets filmed is provided with Secret and

889
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: by this clinic that sells nonsense drugs. Per Fitzpatrick's book,

890
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: this course was provided by a private GP who also

891
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 1: offered treatments for jet lag, chronic fatigue, and aging at

892
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: a cost of fifteen hundred pounds. Oh wow, so this

893
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: is just like a is this thing not regulated yet? Absolutely?

894
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: We'll shoot at India. What fifteen hundred bucks? Did take it?

895
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 3: Give it?

896
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: Get hand me your kid, I'll shoot them with whatever.

897
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 3: I love that. I love that cures everything from autism

898
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 3: to jet lag.

899
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's different, different nonsense drugs, but I

900
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 1: see so. Unfortunately for Secret and advocates, within six months,

901
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: a double blind study of sixty children had come to

902
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: very different conclude lusions secreting was at best useless. This

903
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: was not a at least for treating autism. This was

904
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: not enough to immediately kill the industry. However, as Nancy

905
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: Shoote writes, by May two thousand and five, five randomized

906
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: clinical trials had failed to provide to reveal any benefit

907
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: an interest in Secret and waned. It took years for

908
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: that to play out, says pediatrician Susan Levy, who helped

909
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,760
Speaker 1: conduct several of the trials. Research is very labor intensive,

910
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: and progress may be slow. Parents may feel helpless, she adds,

911
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: and they don't want to leave any stone unturned. And

912
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: there's like a kind of weird tragedy of commons thing here,

913
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: which is like, if your kid gets diagnosed to the

914
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: thing that we don't understand well how to help with

915
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: or even what it is, you may be best just

916
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 1: like loving them and trying to help them figure out

917
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: life and waiting for the science to figure stuff out,

918
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: because the alternative is you do what these parents do,

919
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: which is just you shooting random crap into your child

920
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: and I get there. It's the one of the biggest

921
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: problems in like emergency situations. Obviously there's the issue of

922
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: like people just not do the bystander effect, but there's

923
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: also this issue of people feeling like I have to

924
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: do something and then making the problem worse. When you're

925
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: trained in like emergency medicine, one of the first pieces

926
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 1: of training is like, don't just jump in there.

927
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 4: You need to.

928
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: Evaluate the scene, because the worst thing you can do

929
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: is try to go be a hero and add a

930
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: casualty to the situation.

931
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 5: Right.

932
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: You get like a down power line, the whole family

933
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: dies rushing to save one person, right because they're the

934
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,439
Speaker 1: stress of not doing anything, which is sometimes the best

935
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: thing to do, is really hard. And that's what's going

936
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 1: on psychologically here too. So you know, by the point

937
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: that we are at now, there have been more than

938
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: a dozen double blind studies that all repeatedly mean the

939
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: same case. Secretin just doesn't work this way. Science and

940
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: the sheer in effectiveness of secretin has eventually brought it

941
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: to I don't think it's entirely extinct, but it's it's

942
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: not as common as it once was. But obviously a

943
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,919
Speaker 1: lot of parent children are drugged and thankfully the side

944
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: effects of this aren't as bad as the next thing

945
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about, But their parents are robbed blind. Right,

946
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 1: this is not cheap. Michael Fitzpatrick, himself a physician, writes this.

947
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: One day in surgery, the mother of a boy with

948
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: autism told me that she had spent the equivalent of

949
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: his disability living allowance for one year on a course

950
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: of secret and injections provided at a Harley Street clinic for

951
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: a single parent reliant on benefits. The outcome of this

952
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 1: encounter with a biomedical practitioner was not only disappointment when

953
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 1: the miracle cure failed, but financial hardship for the whole family.

954
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: And obviously these people don't care. They're lefting all the

955
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: way to the bank. They don't give a shit if

956
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: any of this works.

957
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's horrifying.

958
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: And it's gonna get worse because again, at least secret

959
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 1: and doesn't seem to really fuck people up too much. Right,

960
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: it's just kind of useless. But the next thing is

961
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: not just that, you know what, doesn't have any hype

962
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: to it because it's just that good. Our ads all right,

963
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 1: everybody back. So all these studies are accumulating in the

964
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: hypover secretin is dying down. The con men offering cures

965
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 1: to desperate dan parents spun up a new strategy for interventions.

966
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: They had long believed that mercury poisoning was a root

967
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 1: cause of autism, so of course the logical place to

968
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: look for a potential cure was treatments that could reduce

969
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: the amount of heavy metals in a child's blood. Right,

970
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: If it's metals that are causing it, why don't we

971
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: look at ways to strip heavy metals from somebody's system, right,

972
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: And there is a way to do that. It's called

973
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: chelation therapy, right, like hyperbaric therapy. This is real medicine.

974
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: If you have like lead poisoning, for example, chelation therapy

975
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:43,839
Speaker 1: can do a lot of good for you, you know.

976
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: And it's basically there's a couple of different drugs that

977
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: could do this. But you dose people with a drug

978
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: and it converts the lead, the mercury, and other heavy

979
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 1: metals that are in their body into less dangerous compounds

980
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: that you kind of pee out. Right, So it's great

981
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: if you're like a minor who has heavy metal exposure,

982
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: you know, but very few children really do because we

983
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: don't let them work in mines anymore. Give them, give

984
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: give the Republicans a year, we'll get back to. Kids

985
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: with autism very rarely have massive lead levels, you know,

986
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: And if they do, it is generally doesn't have anything

987
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: to do with their autism. It's because they grew up

988
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: in like Flint, Michigan. Right, And maybe then they do

989
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: need chelation therapy. Some kids do, unfortunately, there's a lot.

990
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 4: Of Michigan's lander in this episode to.

991
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 5: And in fact they problem it is the birthplace of

992
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 5: my parents.

993
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, well they might need some chelation therapy. I don't know,

994
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: so I won't ask. Is great if you've got heavy

995
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: metal exposure, right, But if you don't, it's harmful because

996
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: the process of like pulling all of these metals out

997
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: of because we all have heavy metals in us all

998
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: the time. Right. Trace levels, it's fine, it's fine. Sometimes

999
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: in some cases you need them, but in other cases

1000
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: it's just fine. Right, teeny tiny bit of mercury, very normal.

1001
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: Ask people who eat a lot of fish. Right. But

1002
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: so if you're doing this, this has an impact on

1003
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: your body. This is a drug that has a pretty

1004
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: profound effect on you, and that means it does bad stuff.

1005
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: And if you have way too much lead or whatever

1006
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: in you, it's worth that cost, right because the lead

1007
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: has kind of caused problems. But if you don't have

1008
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 1: any problems that are caused by heavy metals, you're gonna

1009
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,280
Speaker 1: hurt yourself with this shit for no reason. Now, before

1010
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: we get into the use of chellation for autism, I

1011
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: wanted to start with I didn't see this in other

1012
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,720
Speaker 1: articles on chelation therapy, but I found a two thousand

1013
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 1: and nine piece in Slate by Arthur Allen that talks

1014
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: about the starting point of chelation as a snake oil cure,

1015
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: and it does start before autism quote, well before it

1016
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: was used for autism quote. Chelation therapy became a craze

1017
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties as a treatment for atherosclerosis and adults.

1018
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 1: Opponents claimed patients were being harmed by mercury from their fillings.

1019
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: Dentists use this as an excuse to pull teeth and

1020
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: even removed jaw bones from their patients. When Haley, a

1021
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: University of Kentucky chemist, was the high Priest of the

1022
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: Amalgam Wars, when the Thimer assault theory emerged on the scene,

1023
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: Hailey and other chelationists shifted their focus to autistic children.

1024
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 1: So again, these are people who are like, yeah, let's

1025
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: get with these crank dnnis. Let's put our pulling teeth

1026
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: and jaws out of people. Give it them chellation therapy.

1027
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 1: It's your fillings. And then like that kind of dies.

1028
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: But then suddenly they see people blaming you know, mercury

1029
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 1: for autism, and they're like, guys, we got a new grift.

1030
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: Move on over here, move on over here. These parents

1031
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: aren't looking for shit. So in the year two thousand,

1032
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: this was still a fairly small number. It was fairly

1033
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: uncommon for children with autism to undergo chelation therapy, and

1034
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: at least you got some some of the small number

1035
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: of kids with autism actually like had heavy metal exposure

1036
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: that was unrelated, but you know, might have actually needed chillation.

1037
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: By two thousand and five, there were more than ten

1038
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 1: thousand children with autism in the un US regularly undergoing

1039
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,359
Speaker 1: chelation therapy. Almost none of them had any reason to do.

1040
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 3: So ten thousand kids.

1041
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is like a five year period of

1042
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: time from a handful to ten thousand right on a

1043
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: regular basis, so unlike secretin, chelation therapy involved dosing children

1044
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 1: with an extraordinarily powerful drug that had dangerous side effects.

1045
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: Telation can cause kidney failure, especially if administered in IV form,

1046
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: which is exactly what most biomedical experts advised when treating autism.

1047
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,879
Speaker 1: The standard of care. You only really use IV if

1048
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:33,959
Speaker 1: you have to. You have other ways. There's like pills,

1049
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: I think, there's creams that are less harsh on your body,

1050
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 1: and you can generally do that with people who just

1051
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 1: have heavy metal exposure. For a variety of reasons, including

1052
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 1: to get more money from it. These guys are like, no,

1053
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: you got to do an IV right, which we know

1054
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: is the most dangerous way to do this.

1055
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1056
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: Chelation therapy can also cause heart problems, which again is poy.

1057
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: You don't take this and lets you have to. One

1058
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: person who absolutely did not need chelation therapy was Abu

1059
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: Bakar Tarik, age five. He was the son of a

1060
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: physician in Britain who had been diagnosed with autism. Tarik

1061
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: had been Tarik's family described him as a happy and

1062
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: energetic boy, but despite this, they also searched desperately to

1063
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: cure him, eventually subjecting him to ten different kinds of

1064
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: quack medical therapy, including hyperbaric chambers. Now, Fitzpatrick makes this

1065
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: incredibly important important note when he writes about this in

1066
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 1: his book quote this is characteristic of the unorthodox biomedical approach,

1067
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 1: which recommends a wide range of interventions which are often

1068
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 1: pursued simultaneously. This makes any judgment of which treatment may

1069
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: be working or causing adverse effects impossible. And again, it's

1070
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 1: one of those things. You're a parent, You're terrified. You

1071
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: want everything, give him everything, But like that's not how

1072
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: medicine works. If you give him everything, you don't know

1073
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: what's working or not. Right, there's a reason why you're like, well,

1074
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 1: we're gonna try one thing, we'll see what happens, then

1075
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 1: we'll try another, you know, because otherwise it's not satisfying.

1076
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: But you just can't do it the other way.

1077
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 3: Right, It's like an old sailor saying, right, like, if

1078
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 3: you can't tie, could not tie a lot of bad ones. Right, Yeah,

1079
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 3: it feels it feels like that, but but I mean

1080
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 3: I was just thinking about like the the iv aspect

1081
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 3: of it, Like IVY looks like the most scientific of

1082
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 3: those things, right, Like prescribe you to cream like.

1083
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: This is a serious medicine.

1084
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, happens.

1085
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: It's just more dangerous for your again small child.

1086
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

1087
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, none of these interventions are based in sound

1088
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: medical science or any scientists at all, science at all,

1089
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,479
Speaker 1: and they don't work. So Tarik's family as they're trying,

1090
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 1: they're putting them in hyperbaric chambers and shit. They continue

1091
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: to shop around for experts and diagnoses, and eventually they

1092
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: find themselves leaving the UK, crossing the Pond to seek

1093
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: treatment in the United States, which is how they wind

1094
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: up seeking out doctor andju Usman, director of the True

1095
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: Health Medical Center in Naperville, Illinois. Now, doctor Usman happily

1096
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: diagnosed Tarik with heavy heavy metal poisoning. Specifically, she blamed

1097
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 1: his case of autism on very high aluminum levels. Now,

1098
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: actual blood tests didn't support this. He had low levels

1099
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: of iron. He did have a slightly elevated lead level,

1100
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: although we'll talk about why it's not because he necessarily

1101
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: had normally a high lead level. There's no evidence that

1102
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: his aluminum levels were raised at all. We don't really

1103
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: know why she came to this conclusion, but still he

1104
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: was prescribed an extensive series of chillation treatments which would

1105
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: ultimately end in his death. Now, doctor anju Usman is

1106
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: the still to this day, as far as I can tell,

1107
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: the director of the True Health Medical Center, which brags

1108
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: on its website to have provided integrative and biomedical treatments

1109
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 1: that enhance traditional medical care since two thousand and three.

1110
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: Her bio on the website says that she got her

1111
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 1: degree from Indiana from Indiana University Medical School and carried

1112
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: out a residency at a family practice in Cook County Hospital, Chicago.

1113
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 1: She writes, during residency, I had my first daughter who

1114
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: had severe food allergies in asthma. My second doctor, who

1115
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,640
Speaker 1: was born shortly after, was diagnosed with juvenile onset diabetes.

1116
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: My third daughter had chemical sensibilities to environmental substances like

1117
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 1: cleaning agents, perfumes, pesticides, and synthetic clothing. Even with my

1118
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: extensive education and training, I felt ill equipped to handle

1119
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 1: their medical issues. I began questioning my role as a

1120
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: physician and healer. As she that's obviously a difficult situation.

1121
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: It's never I was a sick kid with horrible asthma.

1122
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: I have sympathy for that. It's scary, right, She claims

1123
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: this experience as a mother led her to shift her

1124
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 1: attention to treating the underlying cause of the disorders rather

1125
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 1: than the symptoms. And again she talks about her extensive education.

1126
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: None of it isn't doing this. Being a family practitioner

1127
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 1: does not treat like teach you how.

1128
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, as boss.

1129
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: You know, that's just not how it works. Yeah, yeah,

1130
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: that's like you know, I'm an expert race car driver,

1131
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: which is how I know how to drive an eighteen

1132
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: wheeler for thirty seven hours. Like, No, there's a different skills.

1133
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 1: There's maybe some ways in which they correlate, but honestly,

1134
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: I would prefer a truck driver do that job. She

1135
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 1: worked as an alternative health clinic called the Fifer Medical

1136
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 1: Center in Warrenville, which was named after Carl Fifer, a

1137
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 1: researcher who the CIA had paid to carry out LSD

1138
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: mind control studies as part of MK Ultra. So great

1139
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 1: namesake for the Fighters Medical Center. No notes.

1140
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 4: Cool.

1141
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 1: I will say doctor Usman's children's allergies were more significant

1142
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: even than she writes on her bio for the center,

1143
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 1: And I'm not blaming her for that. I understand why,

1144
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: because her three daughters all suffered severe allergic disorders. One

1145
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: had conjunctive itis so bad it caused cellulitis in her eyes,

1146
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: and her eldest daughter, Priya, died in two thousand and three,

1147
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 1: two years before Treik came to her clinic after an

1148
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: anaphylactic reaction to peanuts. So what we've got here is

1149
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: a legitimately draumatized mother who was trained in medical science,

1150
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 1: but like not the kind she's got to be practicing,

1151
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: and she can't really accept that sometimes horrible things happen

1152
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 1: to your kids and that sucks. So she goes on

1153
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: a crusade after concluding that aluminum toxicity causes everything from

1154
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: allergies to autism, and.

1155
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 3: So she's just like over prescribing for everyone to save

1156
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 3: every kid. Essentially.

1157
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's kind of what's going on.

1158
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 3: It comes from a good place.

1159
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: It comes from like I understand how you got here,

1160
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: but you are just going to compound harm, you know.

1161
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it feels like a different type of

1162
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 3: horrible than like the person who is sending text messages about.

1163
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 1: The right right right, get as many bodies in these shape.

1164
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 1: Although actually she has Ah, She's got a sketchy history

1165
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 1: with hyperbaric chambers. We'll talk about that. So Uzman was

1166
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 1: a member of DAN and a fellow DAN doctor Kenneth

1167
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 1: Bach agreed with her about aluminum. He has noted that

1168
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 1: he's disappointed that she hasn't really published much of anything

1169
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 1: about her findings on aluminum, which I suspect is because

1170
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 1: there aren't in a bio for her clinic. Doctor Usman

1171
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: engages in common bio medical practitioner tactics of blumping every

1172
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 1: issue she can name together and insinuating, hey, these all

1173
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 1: might be caused by the same environmental toxin, which in

1174
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: her case is aluminum poison. Quote. I wanted to know

1175
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: more about why my children and so many other children

1176
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 1: and adults and epidemic proportions are suffering from chronic degenerative

1177
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: autoimmune disorders such as asthma, allergies, arthritis, diabetes, OCD, mood disorders,

1178
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: attention deficit disorder ADHD, and autism spectrum disorders. Now, like

1179
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 1: a lot of these people, doctor Usmann considers ADHD to

1180
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 1: be part of the autism spectrum. Again, mainstream medical science

1181
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: doesn't really feel this way. On True Medical's website, she

1182
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 1: provides us with a clear idea of how she interpeers

1183
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 1: view people with autism. Quote, the mission in opening True

1184
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: Health Medical Center came from my journey to help my

1185
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: own children with these chronic disorders to lead productive and

1186
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 1: healthy lives. This simple dream has been shattered for so

1187
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 1: many families. Right, It's again this idea nobody with autism,

1188
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 1: no kid can ever live like a happy life. Maybe

1189
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 1: if you weren't drugging them more, would I don't know

1190
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: if Tarik Nadama would have ever been productive in like

1191
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 1: the capitalist sense of the word. But again, his family

1192
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: described them as a happy, energetic child, so at least

1193
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: that was in the cards for him until quack biomedical

1194
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 1: treatments killed him. As I explained last episode, doctor Usman

1195
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: had diagnosed him with heavy metal toxicity, despite there being

1196
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: very little evidence that we have that that was the case. Now,

1197
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: one widespread belief among parents in this community is that

1198
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 1: by the time a kid is three or four, you

1199
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: don't have much time to reverse the damage that they

1200
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: believe causes autism. So time is of the essence, which

1201
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: is why you have this shotgun approach to extreme therapies.

1202
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: One of my sources for these episodes was a Chicago

1203
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 1: Tribune article which quotes DAN affiliated pediatrician doctor Elizabeth Mumper

1204
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 1: when she testified before federal court that quote, we feel

1205
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 1: some urgency that we can't wait for ten or twenty years,

1206
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: and that urgency is what leads to treatments like this.

1207
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 1: So doctor Usman recommends Tarik undergo EDTA therapy, which is

1208
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 1: like a type of drug you could do chillation with.

1209
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 1: The treatment is administered by a different doctor at the center,

1210
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: named Roy Carrey. Roy is again a retired E and

1211
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 1: T surgeon, so none of this is within what you'd

1212
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: call his wheelhouse. In two thousand and five, doctor Carrey

1213
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 1: was sixty eight, he was not yet a listed DAN practitioner.

1214
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: He did the year after Tarik died complete the intensive

1215
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 1: eight hour training necessary to get that requirement, so that's good.

1216
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: Tariq was his first time administering chillation therapy to a

1217
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 1: child with autism. Now, doctor Usmont's website includes this very

1218
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 1: friendly photo of her looking like a lovely, competent family doctor.

1219
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: And I want you to see this picture that she

1220
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:43,720
Speaker 1: puts on her website. As I read this description of

1221
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 1: the therapy that she endorsed and that doctor carry carried

1222
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: out on young Tarik, I'm going to quote from Michael

1223
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: Fitzpatrick's book here, Tariq's records indicate that to administer an

1224
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: intravenous infusion he had to be restrained by at least

1225
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 1: four adults using a papoose board. This device is a

1226
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 1: flat wooden board with attached fabric straps which are wrapped

1227
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: around the child's body and limbs to prevent struggling during treatment.

1228
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: It was obviously impossible to restrain Toreek for the period

1229
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: of several hours generally recommended for the chellation infusion, hence,

1230
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: in contravention of specific cautions issued by the manufacturer to

1231
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 1: reek suitably restrained receive this medication over five to ten

1232
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: minutes in a rapid IV. Push. Oh wow, So they

1233
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 1: are strapping him to a board, holding him down, and

1234
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 1: instead of again the safest ways like do a pill

1235
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: or a cream, the least safe way is an IV.

1236
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 1: But when you're even doing an IV, it should take

1237
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 1: hours because you don't want to do this too fast.

1238
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 1: They are shotgunning hours worth of medication into his body

1239
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 1: and fi his five year old body in five to

1240
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 1: ten minutes while he's strapped to a board. So we

1241
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 1: have known for a long time that This is bad

1242
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: right doing DTA. Even if you do it properly, you

1243
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: can people can develop irregular heart rhythms and have seizures

1244
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 1: or even die. This is why the standard of care

1245
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: is a slow IVY infusion. But because this kid doesn't

1246
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: like being strapped to a board and shut up with drugs,

1247
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 1: they do the most dangerous version of the thing and

1248
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 1: he undergoes this three times. Tarik finally dies after his

1249
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 1: third infusion. Doctor Carrie wasn't even in the room. He

1250
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: gets bored and he leaves it up to another doctor

1251
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: and a nurse to do this.

1252
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 3: He gets bored of the short procedure.

1253
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 1: He doesn't describe it as getting bored. That's my editorializing,

1254
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: but like he didn't want to be there. You know,

1255
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 1: he's sixty eight whatever, He's on a boat or some shit.

1256
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 1: Per his medical records, Tarik's released during a subsequent lawsuit.

1257
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,040
Speaker 1: During the IV push, Tarik's mother, Marwan Nadama, said that

1258
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 1: something was wrong. Doctor Mark Lewis took Tarik's vitals and

1259
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: then Tariq went limp. Nurse Teresa Bicker called nine to

1260
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 1: one one and helped with CPR while the ambulance was

1261
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: en route. Tarik was taken by ambulance to Butler Regional Hospital,

1262
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: where he was pronounced dead.

1263
01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's just so it's so horrifying that

1264
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 3: like the treatment itself is horrible, and then you're shotgunning

1265
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 3: the treatment and then and this kid is like, uh,

1266
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 3: strapped down and there aren't professionals there. Like the fact

1267
01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 3: that there.

1268
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 1: I mean there's a doctor and a nurse there, but

1269
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:16,760
Speaker 1: like they're not doing what they should be.

1270
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1271
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you had anyone whose expertise was in chulation therapy,

1272
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: they'd be like, what the fuck are you doing? This

1273
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 1: isn't a wee do. If you're gonna give him this,

1274
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: don't give him this. But if you are, like him

1275
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 1: a pill.

1276
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:29,920
Speaker 3: Fuck yeah. So.

1277
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: A forensic pathologist later identified Juick's cause of death as

1278
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: diffuse acute cerebral hypoxic a shimic injury, and sub indo

1279
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 1: cardial myocardial necrosis. Carrie was ultimately charged with involuntary manslaughter.

1280
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 1: He surrendered his medical license in two thousand and eight,

1281
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 1: but the charges were dropped, although in the December of

1282
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, his license was suspended for six

1283
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 1: months over the incident and he was placed on a

1284
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 1: two year probation. So that's where we're in Nick part one.

1285
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 3: I have to say, uh, I mean, this is the

1286
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Speaker 3: most I've smiled in an episode about children dying. It's

1287
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 3: so sad.

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01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:13,800
Speaker 1: How else do you fucking I don't know.

1289
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 3: Deal with this.

1290
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:19,719
Speaker 5: It's awful that you yelling Dan is funny every time.

1291
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. I really knew that that was going

1292
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:24,679
Speaker 1: to be a load bearing part of getting people through

1293
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:25,560
Speaker 1: these episodes.

1294
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 4: It's been very helpful to me personally.

1295
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 1: Me too, Mago.

1296
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,720
Speaker 4: You have anything you want to plug before the end

1297
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 4: of part one.

1298
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 3: You know, we also talk about terrible things, but are

1299
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 3: terrible things on part are more like the sunniest place

1300
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 3: to hide your taxes or or like uh, why iron

1301
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 3: Rand took Social Security and was a total hypocrite and

1302
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:57,520
Speaker 3: stuff like that. But it's uh, I don't know. If

1303
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 3: I would love for people to check out the show. Yeah,

1304
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 3: listen to.

1305
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,880
Speaker 5: The Michelin star episode that you guys did when you

1306
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 5: brought the show back recently, Like I don't know, it

1307
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 5: was like a year ago maybe, yeah, Yeah, that was

1308
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:13,559
Speaker 5: a fun one for me.

1309
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,679
Speaker 3: We did a really fun one recently on Pablo Xcobar,

1310
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 3: the guy who was stealing rare bird eggs.

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01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 5: That's fun. That's great. I love that, Robert. We should

1312
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 5: we go.

1313
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's let's get the fuck out.

1314
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:36,599
Speaker 4: Of here, all right. That's part one. Behind the Bastards

1315
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 4: is a production of cool Zone Media. For more from

1316
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 4: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com,

1317
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 4: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1318
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:49,280
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is

1319
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 4: now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday.

1320
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 5: Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind

1321
01:09:57,560 --> 01:09:58,440
Speaker 5: the Bastards