WEBVTT - Wigging Out: JT Leroy

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<v Speaker 1>Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio z WB.

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<v Speaker 2>Three Elizabeth Clyde Dutton. What's up? How you b girl?

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<v Speaker 3>I'm good and I'm good. Feeling good?

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<v Speaker 2>Nice?

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<v Speaker 3>Not really, but yeah, feeling good.

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<v Speaker 2>Looks like you're convincing, Lyne.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh, yes, you know it's ridiculous, I do girl, Uh huh.

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<v Speaker 2>All but two US presidents are descendants of the same

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<v Speaker 2>British king. Wow, right, in't that weird? So there's this

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<v Speaker 2>twelve year old girl, right seventh grader at Monte Vista

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<v Speaker 2>Christian School in Watsonville, California. Her name Bridge Anne d'evegnon.

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<v Speaker 2>She began studying her own lineage, her own genetic lenea.

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<v Speaker 2>She wanted to see if she had any connections to France.

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<v Speaker 2>Turns out her grandfather also had a sixty year long

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<v Speaker 2>habit of doing genealogy, so he had lots of evidence

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<v Speaker 2>for her to go pouring through. So for months for

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<v Speaker 2>the summer, she's doing this, Right, she looks over five

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<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand names. She's trying to look for the presidential Adam,

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<v Speaker 2>somebody who connects to all the presidents. I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>why that's what he'r thaying, but that's your thing. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>she finds one John Lackland Plantagenet Okay aka King John

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<v Speaker 2>aka the enemy of Robin Hood aka the English king

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<v Speaker 2>who signed the Magna Carta back in twelve fifteen.

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<v Speaker 3>What up? Now?

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<v Speaker 2>Back to the US presidents, though all but two are

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<v Speaker 2>apparently related to him. Can you guess which two are not?

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<v Speaker 3>Kennedy?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, Obama, no Trump?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 3>Shoot right, Nixon.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll give you a hint. Before recently there was only

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<v Speaker 2>one president who was related to him.

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<v Speaker 3>So Clinton, no, Bush, Biden?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, the Irish.

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<v Speaker 3>Elizabeth, the Irish president.

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<v Speaker 2>Irish and probably not related to an English king.

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<v Speaker 3>Kennedy I thought would be the one.

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<v Speaker 2>He's not that He's not as Irish as Biden. Biden

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<v Speaker 2>is more Irish.

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<v Speaker 3>Ireland exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>All right?

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<v Speaker 3>So Biden and I need one more? Huh? Is it

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<v Speaker 3>pre nineteen hundred?

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<v Speaker 2>Super early? I'll give you a hand.

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<v Speaker 3>His ancestors were Dutch, I would say, uh, President, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know, Martin.

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<v Speaker 2>Van Buren all Marty, Yeah, So there you go. Now, personally,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm related to make Queen Scott, so I have no

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<v Speaker 2>English blood and I boast about that. Just Scott's and Irish.

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<v Speaker 3>What up?

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<v Speaker 2>For you anyway. This all makes sense to me.

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<v Speaker 3>It does make right.

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<v Speaker 2>It's ridiculous though. Huh, that's very Obama and trumpet all ken.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow, you know what else is ridiculous?

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<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth Wiggs. Oh yeah, wait, that's your Crime Wigs.

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<v Speaker 3>This is Ridiculous Crime a podcast about absurd and outrageous

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<v Speaker 3>caper's heists and cons. It's always ninety nine percent murder

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<v Speaker 3>free and one hundred percent ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 2>I know you heard that.

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<v Speaker 3>I have for you today zaren A most late nineties

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<v Speaker 3>of tales.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh nice, that explained your hair totally.

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<v Speaker 3>Have you heard of J. T Leroy? Yes, writer correct, yes,

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<v Speaker 3>so let me tell you their story please. Jt Leroy

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<v Speaker 3>was born on October thirty first, nineteen eighty in West Virginia.

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<v Speaker 2>Halloween baby in West Virginia. Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>His mom, Sarah, was just fourteen years old.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>The J in JT is for Jeremiah and the tea

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<v Speaker 3>is for Terminator.

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<v Speaker 2>What. Yeah, so mama named and terminator.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, because his mom was so young when she had him.

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<v Speaker 3>He lived in a foster home until his mother turned eighteen.

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<v Speaker 3>Oka She was a drug addict and a prostitute, so

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<v Speaker 3>she and her son they traveled across the US together,

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<v Speaker 3>moving from truck stop to truck stop. It was a

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<v Speaker 3>very rough life. I'm not going to get into that.

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<v Speaker 3>As JT wrote later in The New York Times, quote,

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<v Speaker 3>when I was a child, my mother worked the strip

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<v Speaker 3>clubs outside Orlando, Florida, and weeding out the Disney dollars

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<v Speaker 3>from legitimate tender stuffed into her g string was my job.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh horrible. So when he was around thirteen, he found

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<v Speaker 3>himself on the streets of San Francisco. This is about

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen ninety three, So what a year in San Francisco

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<v Speaker 3>was still affordable for artists?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, nineteen ninety three. I was there then, tons.

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<v Speaker 3>Of undergrounds, So tell me like it was.

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<v Speaker 2>I was a Oh my god, you're gonna beat me up.

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<v Speaker 2>I was raving my off at the time. I was

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<v Speaker 2>a skateboarder who was really into raving and like all

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of bad decisions feed graffiti. I was a tagger.

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<v Speaker 2>I was up like you could have seen me on

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<v Speaker 2>market like street with big pieces like yeah, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>gonna say my name, why implicate myselves in crimes? My

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<v Speaker 2>pants were super wide. I still have a couple of those,

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<v Speaker 2>like big forties and forty two's with ye leg like

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<v Speaker 2>Janco jeans. Yeah yeah, okay, yes, I was there. I

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<v Speaker 2>was that time.

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<v Speaker 3>This was a time. And so when he got to

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<v Speaker 3>San Francisco, J he started calling a crisis hotline that there. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>it was designed for kids in trouble.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of us then.

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<v Speaker 3>And so San Francisco, which I have a quick public

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<v Speaker 3>service announcement, do not call it San Fran. Just don't

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<v Speaker 3>do it.

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<v Speaker 2>Unless people know that you're from La or other parts

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<v Speaker 2>like that.

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<v Speaker 3>Else.

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<v Speaker 2>People from La loved going going up to San fran

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<v Speaker 2>for the weekend.

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<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, no, we don't say that.

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<v Speaker 2>I like to correct and I give him like marsh

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<v Speaker 2>and sand Fran over here.

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<v Speaker 3>Like y'all going up to Frisco. Now Frisco.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't mind that one. It's not older.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not my favorite.

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<v Speaker 2>No no, A lot of people hated it.

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<v Speaker 3>There are certain like neighborhoods and Marsha.

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<v Speaker 2>Lynch says it. So Marshall says, it's cool. Man.

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<v Speaker 3>Listen whatever Marshaw Lynch says, I go.

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<v Speaker 2>For Did you know the Gospel of Marshan.

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<v Speaker 3>I want to be his friend so badly. Oh, my God,

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<v Speaker 3>And you know what it all stems from. I once

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<v Speaker 3>had a dream that I was in home goods sniffing

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<v Speaker 3>candles and I looked over and he was doing the

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<v Speaker 3>same thing, and we were making the same gagging faces

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<v Speaker 3>and laughed, and then I was like I woke up.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like, I got to this guy's natural affinity and

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<v Speaker 3>I need to be Marshall Lynch's friend.

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<v Speaker 2>I've met him, have you. Yeah, I've been at his

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<v Speaker 2>soul food place in Oakland. I met him. Like, I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really get to like talk and hang out with

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<v Speaker 2>him because I was doing a whole story and they

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<v Speaker 2>told me to do it like a Frank Sinatra as

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<v Speaker 2>a call where you don't really talk.

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<v Speaker 3>To him, talking about around him, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>And also when he came in, I just wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>leave him be so like I didn't even really have

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<v Speaker 2>a moment that my respect for him was so great.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I'm not going to even bother you.

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<v Speaker 3>He's amazing. I've been to that restaurant, rob Ben's Best

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<v Speaker 3>Wings ever.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, I do you recommend it? Hit me up

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<v Speaker 2>if you ever in Oakland.

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<v Speaker 3>So number one, Marshall and Lynch amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, don't.

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<v Speaker 3>Say San France. Yes, honestly, if you want to be local,

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<v Speaker 3>called the city.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Are you cool with SF?

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<v Speaker 3>Not really?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay? Are you cool with I'm.

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<v Speaker 3>Cool with very little in life. So anyway, let's get

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<v Speaker 3>back to j T.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, nineteen ninety three.

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<v Speaker 3>So he's calling helplines and that's how he gets connected

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<v Speaker 3>with this child psychologist. And when he's going through all this,

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<v Speaker 3>he gets rescued from the San Francisco streets by an

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<v Speaker 3>outreach worker named Emily Fraser aka Speedy english Woman. I

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<v Speaker 3>should say so. She also had survived these same streets,

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<v Speaker 3>and Speedy told The New York Times that when she

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<v Speaker 3>first met JT, he was in a psychotic haze and

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<v Speaker 3>quote would walk into cars because he couldn't see they

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<v Speaker 3>were there having a rough time. So during their phone calls,

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<v Speaker 3>the psychologist encouraged JT to write down all of these

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<v Speaker 3>intense stories that he had been sharing. He thought it

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<v Speaker 3>would be very cathartic write this down, and also he

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<v Speaker 3>had away with words, and so the therapist he wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to share a story with one of his group therapy

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<v Speaker 3>sessions of Troubled Teens. The story was called Balloons. It

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<v Speaker 3>was about heroin. Apparently it was a huge hit with

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<v Speaker 3>the kids for some reason. So this doctor he passed

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<v Speaker 3>along balloons to his neighbor too, who was a book editor,

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<v Speaker 3>and then that neighbor passed the story along to someone

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<v Speaker 3>else in the industry, and so on and so on.

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<v Speaker 3>And around this time JT started going by his government

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<v Speaker 3>middle name Terminator. So this is in the New York

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<v Speaker 3>Times quote. Mister Leroy began to write fan letters to

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<v Speaker 3>authors and artists he admired, many of whom, to his surprise,

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<v Speaker 3>wrote back. He corresponded with Sharon Olds, Mary Carr, and

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<v Speaker 3>Dennis Cooper, all of whom eventually offered him feedback on

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<v Speaker 3>his writing. Wow, so he's you know, he's making these connections.

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<v Speaker 3>Dennis Cooper, who's going to be important in this story.

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<v Speaker 3>He's an American writer. His themes are similar to those

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<v Speaker 3>explored by J. T. Leroy, sex, drugs, surrealism, punk, ethos,

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<v Speaker 3>queer desire, existentialism. So JT generally started off his correspondence

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<v Speaker 3>via fax, I told you this was a very nice

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<v Speaker 3>and if you aren't sure what a facts is, look

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<v Speaker 3>it up. I'm not going to explain it because it's

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<v Speaker 3>going to make me feel even older than I am.

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<v Speaker 3>He said that he'd been given the fax machine as

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<v Speaker 3>a gift from a trick and it was his lifeline.

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<v Speaker 3>So he said that he would find public restrooms where

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<v Speaker 3>he could like hole up in the stall and surreptitiously

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<v Speaker 3>facts away. How these bathrooms had a working phone jack

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<v Speaker 3>is beyond me.

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<v Speaker 2>That doesn't It does not make sense.

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<v Speaker 3>And again, like, if you don't know what a phone

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<v Speaker 3>jack is, look it up while I drown myself in

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<v Speaker 3>a bucket of crystal pips.

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<v Speaker 2>Doesn't sounds right, You don't put it phone.

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<v Speaker 3>No, it doesn't make any sense. But that's what he's

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<v Speaker 3>telling people. So JT and writer Dennis Cooper they talked

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<v Speaker 3>a lot on the phone. This is according to Vanity Fair. Quote.

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<v Speaker 3>Terminator told Cooper he was a huge, huge fan and

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to interview him for a music magazine. The questions

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<v Speaker 3>never really materialized. He seemed to mostly want to talk

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<v Speaker 3>about himself, Cooper says, but the two struck up a

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<v Speaker 3>phone relationship and Terminator began showing Cooper his work. Also quote,

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<v Speaker 3>Cooper always felt he was being used, that perhaps JT

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<v Speaker 3>wasn't telling the truth about everything. I'd get forty minutes

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<v Speaker 3>of I love you. I'd be dead if it wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>for you, says Cooper, and then abrupt segue, would you

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<v Speaker 3>mind talking to this reporter for me? It was clear

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<v Speaker 3>I was being used to legitimize this project, but I

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<v Speaker 3>felt like, how can I begrudge this kid? I thought

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<v Speaker 3>he was going to die any minute?

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, Cooper thought.

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<v Speaker 3>JT might die any minute because terminator revealed to him

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<v Speaker 3>that he had Caposi's sarcoma as a result of HIV.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, the original diagnosed original lucy sarcoma, and he

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<v Speaker 2>said it had disfigured him. It's his skin cancer.

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<v Speaker 3>It shows up exactly all these lesions, and it's that's

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<v Speaker 3>why he only faxed and talked on the phone. He

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<v Speaker 3>said he just couldn't be seen. So while he wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>going out in public, he was churning out writing. By

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<v Speaker 3>the time he was sixteen, JT was published regularly in Nerve,

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<v Speaker 3>Remember Nerve, and New York Press. In ninety seven, a

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<v Speaker 3>short story of his called Baby Doll was published in

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<v Speaker 3>an anthology called Close to the Bone. By seventeen, he

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<v Speaker 3>had a book deal.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, and he's not even doing crimes and

0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:36.640
<v Speaker 2>he got a book deal.

0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.440
<v Speaker 3>I know he had his uncle signed the deal for him.

0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.800
<v Speaker 3>So his advance was about twenty four thousand dollars, and

0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.520
<v Speaker 3>twenty four thousand dollars in ninety seven is like forty

0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.560
<v Speaker 3>five thousand dollars to day, which is a pretty healthy advance,

0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:51.280
<v Speaker 3>particularly for a first time author.

0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:52.640
<v Speaker 2>Who I don't even get advantage that.

0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.760
<v Speaker 3>No, So when he was nineteen, the British magazine The

0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:01.280
<v Speaker 3>Face called him a literary wonder kin. He was the

0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.160
<v Speaker 3>literary talent of the day, especially for those in like

0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:05.880
<v Speaker 3>the underground spaces.

0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, and in the nineties were very better word, very

0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:09.920
<v Speaker 2>grungey in terms of all things being like.

0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:14.760
<v Speaker 3>Dirty, yeah, exactly. And I remember the buzz around him

0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.000
<v Speaker 3>at that time. He was a cult hero, so everyone

0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.400
<v Speaker 3>wanted a piece of him, and they wanted him at events,

0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.360
<v Speaker 3>but he would never appear. According to a two thousand

0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.280
<v Speaker 3>and five New York Magazine article, in nineteen ninety nine,

0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.960
<v Speaker 3>JT asked a friend of his to impersonate him at

0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.520
<v Speaker 3>readings because he was so nervous. Quote he recommended I

0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.480
<v Speaker 3>rent Bastard out of Carolina and study the accents. But

0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.079
<v Speaker 3>I never did, and my attempt was half hearted and weak,

0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:39.800
<v Speaker 3>but then he came up with the idea of having

0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.640
<v Speaker 3>celebrities do the reading for him because like, don't forget,

0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.640
<v Speaker 3>he's from West Virginia, so he has a Southern accent.

0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:46.920
<v Speaker 2>And a very pronounced accents.

0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.520
<v Speaker 3>So celebrities. Did I mention celebrities?

0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:52.400
<v Speaker 2>We love them?

0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.480
<v Speaker 3>You know you you hit us with the celebrities on Tuesday.

0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:57.040
<v Speaker 2>Celebrity Week, Elizabeth, but you had.

0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.880
<v Speaker 3>Like the glossy you know, two thousand and six to

0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:04.600
<v Speaker 3>young No, I'm talking about, like you said, the grungy Indie.

0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.520
<v Speaker 3>There were a lot in j. T. LeRoy's orbit. We're

0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:14.960
<v Speaker 3>talking Wanona Ryder, Eddie Vedder, Bono, Tom Waits, Calvin Klein,

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:21.080
<v Speaker 3>Sandra Bernhardt, Madonna, Shirley Manson of Garbage, Gus van Zantz,

0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:27.000
<v Speaker 3>of course, Maryanne Faithful, Dewie, Harry Phoenix read Rufus Wainwright.

0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:32.320
<v Speaker 3>Phoenix had passed by that. Yeah, wasn't it ninety four

0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:34.920
<v Speaker 3>either way? But this is so this is like, you know,

0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:39.319
<v Speaker 3>he was thirteen that fourteen, and yeah, so anyway, Rosario Dawson,

0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:45.280
<v Speaker 3>Michael Stipe, John Waters, Stephen Jenkins from whatever is it?

0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.640
<v Speaker 3>What man is that? Third eye blind? Yeah, Carrie Fisher

0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.200
<v Speaker 3>and Courtney love.

0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, so this is very of the moment.

0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:59.680
<v Speaker 3>Who's of late nineties Edgie people like Carry Fisher.

0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah so.

0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.840
<v Speaker 3>JT's first novel, Sarah, was published in two thousand. He

0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.000
<v Speaker 3>was just twenty years old. The book was supposed to

0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:11.440
<v Speaker 3>be a fictionalized account of his childhood as a prostitute

0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:15.040
<v Speaker 3>at truck stops throughout the South. Heidi Benson wrote for

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.840
<v Speaker 3>sf Gate. Quote praise poured in from well known authors.

0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.520
<v Speaker 3>Mary Gateskill called it a quote wildly comic, tour de

0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:26.199
<v Speaker 3>force and a brilliant debut. Dennis Cooper called it a revelation.

0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.840
<v Speaker 3>Among those thanked in the book's acknowledgments are Art Spiegelman,

0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:31.440
<v Speaker 3>Sharon Olds, and Tobias Wolfe.

0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:32.120
<v Speaker 2>Wow yeah.

0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.480
<v Speaker 3>Vanity Fair, in the introduction to an interview between JT

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.880
<v Speaker 3>and Tom Waits, called JT quote the brilliant, gifted, and

0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.640
<v Speaker 3>profound fly on the wall. He is the witness to

0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.080
<v Speaker 3>all the tales that go on in the dark, and

0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.480
<v Speaker 3>for all of us long, may he have the courage

0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:49.000
<v Speaker 3>to remember.

0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.320
<v Speaker 2>For all those of you who missed Jim Harrison, here

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:52.680
<v Speaker 2>you go.

0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:58.600
<v Speaker 3>Exactly so Tom Waite said to JT in the interview, quote,

0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.400
<v Speaker 3>the world is a hellish play, and bad writing is

0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:05.160
<v Speaker 3>destroying the quality of our suffering. It cheapens and degrades

0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.480
<v Speaker 3>the human experience when it should inspire and elevate. You

0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:12.679
<v Speaker 3>are an exception. So just getting like, hi, praise Gus

0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.280
<v Speaker 3>van Zandt director Gus Vanzent. He got pulled into JT's thrall,

0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.600
<v Speaker 3>which makes sense seeing has how their aesthetics are like

0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 3>spot onto each other and.

0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.520
<v Speaker 2>Also all the male hustler stuff. Or he's interested in

0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.440
<v Speaker 2>that vibe of like changing intimacy.

0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.080
<v Speaker 3>For completely and like they're saying, like everything that goes

0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.440
<v Speaker 3>on in the dark all it's like dark underbelly. So

0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.320
<v Speaker 3>van Zant wanted to option the rights and adapt Sarah

0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.760
<v Speaker 3>into a movie, So he met with JT and Speedy

0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.760
<v Speaker 3>about this. Remember Speedy, the street kid turn advocate who

0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:42.520
<v Speaker 3>helped save JT.

0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:45.360
<v Speaker 2>She was first save walking into cars.

0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:47.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly, so she was right there with him through

0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:52.200
<v Speaker 3>everything van Zandt. He never ended up optioning Sarah, but

0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.880
<v Speaker 3>JT did apparently write the first draft of his movie Elephant,

0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:58.840
<v Speaker 3>which won the Palm d'Or at two thousand and three

0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.080
<v Speaker 3>con Film Festival. None of his script made it into

0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.640
<v Speaker 3>the final edit, but he did nab an associate producer credit.

0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:09.640
<v Speaker 2>Is that the one about the Little the Colorado shooting

0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:11.560
<v Speaker 2>and the think.

0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, he JT was working on an animated children's

0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:20.520
<v Speaker 3>movie and an indie TV series. He had this massive

0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.360
<v Speaker 3>online following. He had his email address printed in his

0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 3>books and he encouraged his fans to reach out. They

0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:31.800
<v Speaker 3>called themselves termis It's not as cool as rude dremies.

0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.840
<v Speaker 3>In two thousand and one, The Heart Is Deceitful Above

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.120
<v Speaker 3>All Things was published. So this was a collection of

0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.800
<v Speaker 3>short stories that was written to be a prelude to Sarah.

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.640
<v Speaker 3>After that book came out, Asia Argento, the actress, slash

0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:50.240
<v Speaker 3>director and daughter of Italian horror movie director Dario Argento,

0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.520
<v Speaker 3>she wanted to option the book for film, and so

0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.000
<v Speaker 3>Speedy and JT went to Italy to kind of like

0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:56.920
<v Speaker 3>settle this deal.

0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:58.320
<v Speaker 2>Speaking of dark energy.

0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.440
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god. So during this trip, JT did his

0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.360
<v Speaker 3>first live reading and he was so nervous because apparently

0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.480
<v Speaker 3>he was huge in Italy. He's so nervous that he

0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:10.800
<v Speaker 3>hid under a table and did the reading from there.

0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.080
<v Speaker 3>What and the crowd just ate it up. They loved this,

0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:19.440
<v Speaker 3>like it just fits in precious the presureus. So JT

0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:21.960
<v Speaker 3>and Azia ended up having a bit of a thing

0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.160
<v Speaker 3>and both on the phone and in person over a

0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.560
<v Speaker 3>couple of visits, and there was even a rumor that

0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:32.280
<v Speaker 3>JT had fathered Azzia's child whoa. Yeah. So JT and

0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.680
<v Speaker 3>Azia they worked together to adapt the book into a screenplay,

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.760
<v Speaker 3>The Hardest Deceitful. She told The Guardian, quote, I love

0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.680
<v Speaker 3>JT truly as a friend. He's somebody who will be

0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.440
<v Speaker 3>in my life forever. It wouldn't have been the same

0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:46.040
<v Speaker 3>film if we didn't trust each other.

0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:47.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't trust her.

0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:49.680
<v Speaker 3>It's like this meteoric rise.

0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, yeah, yeah.

0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:55.240
<v Speaker 3>So besides directing, she also starred in the movie as

0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.880
<v Speaker 3>JT's mother, Sarah. The movie premiered at Con in two

0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:00.920
<v Speaker 3>thousand and four, and it was released in the States

0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.960
<v Speaker 3>in two thousand and six. The reviews not so mixed. Yeah,

0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.160
<v Speaker 3>The New York Times wrote quote, Viewer discretion is advised,

0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.880
<v Speaker 3>if only because it's well nigh unwatchable.

0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:11.879
<v Speaker 2>Outshit.

0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So. In two thousand and four, his third book

0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.760
<v Speaker 3>came out. It was called Harold's End, and it was

0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.199
<v Speaker 3>about a young prostitute who adopts a pet snail.

0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Of course I love those stories.

0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.359
<v Speaker 3>So he signed with Viking for another book. He optioned

0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.720
<v Speaker 3>the film rights to Sarah. He wrote a piece for

0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.240
<v Speaker 3>The New York Times called The Sophisticated Traveler Uncle Walt

0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.119
<v Speaker 3>Parley Vu Francis. This piece was about a trip to

0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:36.760
<v Speaker 3>Disneyland Paris, which was paid for by The New York Times,

0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.959
<v Speaker 3>that he took with Speedy. Her husband asked her, and

0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:44.080
<v Speaker 3>then there then eight year old son four. Wow, it's

0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.960
<v Speaker 3>kind of a weird group. Yeah. So as his fame grew,

0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.800
<v Speaker 3>so did a desire for public appearances. He's got to

0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:55.840
<v Speaker 3>do this and hand. But like JT's not comfortable with

0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.119
<v Speaker 3>appearing in public. Still you know, the skin and everything

0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.200
<v Speaker 3>still bad, I guess. But he was willing to power

0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.280
<v Speaker 3>through for the sake of his fans. Per Vanity fair

0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:08.920
<v Speaker 3>quote a waif like androgynous figure hiding behind sunglasses, big

0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.480
<v Speaker 3>blonde wigs and a girlish whispering voice. He would sit

0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.679
<v Speaker 3>tremulously to the side. As a coterie of famous, mostly

0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:20.479
<v Speaker 3>female admirers, JT went on European tours, attended splashy parties

0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:24.000
<v Speaker 3>with rock bands, took home racks of free designer clothes,

0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.080
<v Speaker 3>and appeared in a feature in an Abercromi and Fitch catalog.

0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.080
<v Speaker 2>I thought you're gonna say, a Vincent gallow film.

0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.320
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, that who's missing from this? Well he

0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.240
<v Speaker 3>got over all this anxiety pretty quick. Let's take a break,

0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.080
<v Speaker 3>rud duds, All right. When we come back, we'll continue

0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.160
<v Speaker 3>to follow JT. Le Roy's meteoric rise and eventually get

0:18:40.200 --> 0:19:05.920
<v Speaker 3>to some legal entanglements. Welcome, Elizabeth Zamon. We're talking JT.

0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:06.800
<v Speaker 3>Leroy today.

0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we are.

0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:09.920
<v Speaker 3>I think you know where I'm going with all this.

0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.480
<v Speaker 2>I kind of do, yes, friends, I won't lie.

0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:18.000
<v Speaker 3>There was no JT. Leroy. No, he did not exist.

0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.200
<v Speaker 3>He was the creation of a woman named Laura Albert

0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:26.880
<v Speaker 3>aka Speedy.

0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.840
<v Speaker 2>So he by myself from the streets.

0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 3>Laura Albert was born in nineteen sixty five. She grew

0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.720
<v Speaker 3>up in Brooklyn, New York. She had a really rough childhood.

0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.359
<v Speaker 3>She was abused at home, bullied at school. Her first

0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.879
<v Speaker 3>case of inventing someone happened when she was twelve. She

0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.560
<v Speaker 3>was into this neighborhood kid, ray Like. She had this

0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:45.840
<v Speaker 3>huge crush on him, but she was sure that he

0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:48.720
<v Speaker 3>would never like her back. So she called him and

0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.280
<v Speaker 3>said that She was a blonde Swedish friend of hers

0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:55.639
<v Speaker 3>named Katrine, and she just happened to be visiting Laura

0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.320
<v Speaker 3>while being super attractive. She just wanted to chat and

0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.760
<v Speaker 3>they talked to every but they never met, and Katrine

0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.080
<v Speaker 3>eventually told Ray that she was dying of cancer. Then

0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:10.400
<v Speaker 3>Laura broke the news survey that Catrin had died. So

0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:14.119
<v Speaker 3>it's heartbreaking for a bodacious blonde to visit from another

0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.560
<v Speaker 3>to visit from another land, get cancer and then die.

0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.640
<v Speaker 3>I hate when that happens. She left universal health care

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:24.680
<v Speaker 3>to come here and go into death debt.

0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:27.640
<v Speaker 2>We lost all that bodaciousness. It's such a bad move.

0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:30.720
<v Speaker 3>So Laura dropped out of school when she was thirteen

0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.000
<v Speaker 3>and her mom checked her into a psychiatric ward. When

0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.480
<v Speaker 3>she got out, she wouldn't leave her room. She felt

0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:37.919
<v Speaker 3>like this misfit, like she didn't fit in. But she

0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:39.960
<v Speaker 3>pretty soon found out that there was a place for

0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.400
<v Speaker 3>troubled misfits, for the ones who just didn't fit in

0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.040
<v Speaker 3>a place where you could be accepted and be whatever

0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.040
<v Speaker 3>whoever you wanted to be. That place the New York

0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.720
<v Speaker 3>City punk scene, Oh God, bless it.

0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:51.119
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:55.000
<v Speaker 3>So she loved the lifestyle of it, but she still

0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.200
<v Speaker 3>had like so much body shame that she didn't want

0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.280
<v Speaker 3>to go in person. I feel your sister, So instead

0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.040
<v Speaker 3>of going, she recruited her sister Joanna to go in

0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.800
<v Speaker 3>her place. And so Laura got her all dulled up

0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:07.880
<v Speaker 3>and told her that, you know who she should talk

0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:09.240
<v Speaker 3>to and like who she should meet.

0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:10.520
<v Speaker 2>She prepped her for the scene.

0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and then Joanna would come back and report everything

0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:13.680
<v Speaker 3>back to her.

0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.040
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's fascinating.

0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.520
<v Speaker 3>So nineteen eighty nine she moved to San Francisco, Okay,

0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.800
<v Speaker 3>and she worked a lot of odd jobs, made a babysitter,

0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.159
<v Speaker 3>a phone sex operator, a blood donor. And it was

0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:29.280
<v Speaker 3>while she was working the phone sex line that she

0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.040
<v Speaker 3>perfected the Southern accent that she would later use as

0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:35.800
<v Speaker 3>JT in her seemingly endless phone calls with therapists and

0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.120
<v Speaker 3>celebrities alike. Zarin, close your eyes.

0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:40.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh you suck it up on me.

0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:47.920
<v Speaker 3>I want you to picture it. It's nineteen ninety dateline,

0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:51.800
<v Speaker 3>San Francisco. You are a burgeoning private eye trying your

0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:55.560
<v Speaker 3>best to be the Northern California Anthony Pelicano. Yes, you

0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.960
<v Speaker 3>have tapped the phone of a local electronics mobile. No,

0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.719
<v Speaker 3>he's not in tech. He owns an electronics store. His

0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.480
<v Speaker 3>wife has hired you to catch him cheating. So there

0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.200
<v Speaker 3>you are, hold up in your office south of market,

0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 3>listening in on the phone calls he makes from his

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.879
<v Speaker 3>office at the back of the store. You hear the

0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.760
<v Speaker 3>line engage in the number, get dialed. It rings. Well,

0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:20.840
<v Speaker 3>Hello there, darling. A voice with a syrupyan exaggerated Southern

0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:25.840
<v Speaker 3>accent draws. Is this a dial of fantasy? Oh no,

0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.120
<v Speaker 3>you think to yourself, I do not want to hear this,

0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:30.880
<v Speaker 3>but the wife may be interested, so you keep listening

0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:35.320
<v Speaker 3>it sure is? What can I do you for? Is

0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:39.240
<v Speaker 3>there someone I can talk to who doesn't have the accent? No, honey,

0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:42.800
<v Speaker 3>I'm the only one here. Is that a TV on

0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.399
<v Speaker 3>in the background. You can hear it too? Is that

0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:49.000
<v Speaker 3>he tell me what you lacks? Sugar? Don't you want

0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.800
<v Speaker 3>to describe to me your armpits? What?

0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:53.280
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:55.920
<v Speaker 3>I think I've made a mistake. No, don't hang up.

0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:58.880
<v Speaker 3>Just tell me about your armpits? You know what. I'm

0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.720
<v Speaker 3>going to stop this before it's worth saren So.

0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, just topped it out of your own.

0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:07.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I opted out. It was God, it went too far.

0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:12.960
<v Speaker 3>Get a lot of pit play. So Laura began calling

0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:16.920
<v Speaker 3>suicide hotlines under the personas of like various teenage.

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Boys just pretending to work on her act, Yeah, to

0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:20.080
<v Speaker 2>work out the bit.

0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:22.840
<v Speaker 3>One of them was jt this character that she created,

0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:25.600
<v Speaker 3>that's the one that landed for her. She met a

0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:28.160
<v Speaker 3>guy named Jeff in nineteen eighty nine and they hooked

0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.120
<v Speaker 3>up and started writing songs together. They started a band

0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:34.240
<v Speaker 3>and they called it Daddy Don't Go Jesus, which is

0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:39.240
<v Speaker 3>the most late eighties early nineties Cisco band. So Laura,

0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:41.639
<v Speaker 3>she was like a natural at faking her identity, so

0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:43.960
<v Speaker 3>she'd like pretend to be the band's publicist and call

0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:47.919
<v Speaker 3>around and get him gain Prescott. So Laura reached out

0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.679
<v Speaker 3>to Dennis Cooper in nineteen ninety six, like she's super

0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:53.239
<v Speaker 3>into his writing, but thought that he didn't want to

0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.720
<v Speaker 3>hear from some lady in her thirties. She thought that

0:23:56.760 --> 0:24:00.119
<v Speaker 3>he'd want to connect with someone more like himself. Oh okay, Yeah,

0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:03.920
<v Speaker 3>she reaches out as jt Uh. In that Paris Review interview,

0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:06.600
<v Speaker 3>she said, quote, he was someone I revered, but when

0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:08.479
<v Speaker 3>I read my work to him on the phone, I

0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:11.439
<v Speaker 3>understood that as much as he liked my writing. He

0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:13.960
<v Speaker 3>was also turned on. He thought he was talking to

0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:16.160
<v Speaker 3>a thirteen year old boy, and he was always inviting

0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:18.960
<v Speaker 3>me to his house. I thought sexual attention is better

0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:21.680
<v Speaker 3>than no attention. I'd learned on the street from outreach

0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:24.200
<v Speaker 3>workers that if you get into a dangerous sexual situation,

0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:26.359
<v Speaker 3>you just tell the man you have aids. That was

0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:29.040
<v Speaker 3>the last resort survival strategy. So I finally put the

0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:30.960
<v Speaker 3>brakes on and I said I had aids and sores

0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.960
<v Speaker 3>all over my body. It didn't FaZe him at all. Oh,

0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:37.440
<v Speaker 3>so this is a huge accusation against Dennis.

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.600
<v Speaker 2>Comes like, I need to pick my job, put it

0:24:40.600 --> 0:24:41.800
<v Speaker 2>back where some were useful.

0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:45.120
<v Speaker 3>Wow, I like anyway, So.

0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:47.159
<v Speaker 2>The nineties of all that jumped out, and he's on

0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:47.760
<v Speaker 2>the top of them.

0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:50.760
<v Speaker 3>Here, she's telling all these tales, Scooper, so oh yeah,

0:24:50.760 --> 0:24:53.760
<v Speaker 3>I mean yeah. So she enrolls in writing classes at

0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:55.159
<v Speaker 3>City College of San Francisco.

0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Did he ever repeated it like allegator to speak to him?

0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:01.040
<v Speaker 3>I think I think he did, but I don't have it.

0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:02.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I just carry it.

0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:03.000
<v Speaker 3>That's horrible.

0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:04.320
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I don't know if he was a live or

0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 2>dead essentially, Yeah, no.

0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:08.800
<v Speaker 3>He's live. So she didn't have a computer, so she'd

0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:11.480
<v Speaker 3>write her assignments by hand and then fax it to

0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.840
<v Speaker 3>a friend who would transcribe with a word processor and

0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:18.280
<v Speaker 3>fax it back, which seems like a lot of work

0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:21.399
<v Speaker 3>when like, even in the nineties colleges had computer labs

0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:22.920
<v Speaker 3>on campus free for use.

0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Totally libraries did too.

0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:28.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly. Whatever. What I've learned about Laura Albert is

0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:31.520
<v Speaker 3>that she one hundred percent never let the truth get

0:25:31.520 --> 0:25:32.520
<v Speaker 3>in the way of a good story.

0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:36.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, definitely, so one of my people. She buckled down.

0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:39.800
<v Speaker 3>She wrote Sarah in a six month marathon after her

0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:42.439
<v Speaker 3>son was born in nineteen ninety seven. She said she

0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:44.920
<v Speaker 3>felt that JT wanted to write, so she went along

0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:47.639
<v Speaker 3>with it. Yeah, she was. She caught the spirit of it.

0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:50.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, the characters really worse speaking. Yeah.

0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:53.960
<v Speaker 3>In two thousand and five, the creator of Deadwood, David Belchi, yeah,

0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:58.200
<v Speaker 3>reached out to Laura slash speedy. He wanted JT to

0:25:58.240 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 3>write for the show and so bad. Yeah, that would

0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:05.440
<v Speaker 3>have been pretty rad. So Laura huge fan of the show,

0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:08.600
<v Speaker 3>like super into it. She was so geeked to have

0:26:08.640 --> 0:26:10.840
<v Speaker 3>the opportunity to work on her favorite show and talk

0:26:10.920 --> 0:26:15.200
<v Speaker 3>to its creator that she spilled the beans to him. No, girl,

0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:16.760
<v Speaker 3>guess what I'm gt.

0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:19.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh, you have to forget the truth and the writing gig.

0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:25.560
<v Speaker 3>Of course he didn't tell anyone though, and by that time, yeah,

0:26:25.600 --> 0:26:28.320
<v Speaker 3>around that time, like twenty or thirty people knew about

0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:32.520
<v Speaker 3>the secret, mostly like friends and family, including oddly enough,

0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:35.120
<v Speaker 3>Billy Corgan. He's a weird one.

0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Dude, Smashing Pumpkins. He's like a.

0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:37.880
<v Speaker 3>Super conspiracy guy.

0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:40.679
<v Speaker 2>Now revve he's a weird one in a group of

0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:41.200
<v Speaker 2>weird ones.

0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:44.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I heard that that Smashing Pumpkins played like a

0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:45.040
<v Speaker 3>Disney thing.

0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:48.200
<v Speaker 2>He's actually like a spokesperson for them, you say, a

0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:48.919
<v Speaker 2>holiday thing.

0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:55.840
<v Speaker 3>Yes, everything is just so weird now over it. Anyway,

0:26:56.040 --> 0:26:58.800
<v Speaker 3>it was about this time that Laura and Jeff separated.

0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:01.399
<v Speaker 3>He broke off because of like the stress of the

0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:03.920
<v Speaker 3>whole thing was just getting to him. Sooner or later,

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:05.920
<v Speaker 3>people were going to find out, and Laura just kept

0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:08.919
<v Speaker 3>digging them deeper and deeper. It all had to come crashing,

0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:11.800
<v Speaker 3>you don't know. So. In October of two thousand and five,

0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:14.680
<v Speaker 3>New York Magazine published a piece by Stephen Beachie called

0:27:15.000 --> 0:27:18.200
<v Speaker 3>who is the Real JT. Leroy? Oh? Exactly?

0:27:18.680 --> 0:27:18.840
<v Speaker 2>So?

0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:21.240
<v Speaker 3>The article pointed out a lot of the hanky stuff

0:27:21.280 --> 0:27:24.360
<v Speaker 3>surrounding Leroy. There was a whole like that whole physical

0:27:24.359 --> 0:27:30.840
<v Speaker 3>persona issue. By the way, who was this appearing as him? Yeah,

0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:34.040
<v Speaker 3>that my loves is Savannah.

0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:35.640
<v Speaker 2>Knob, Savannah Canob.

0:27:35.840 --> 0:27:37.679
<v Speaker 3>Savannah is Jeff's sister.

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:40.160
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, and she could believably do the.

0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:43.200
<v Speaker 3>Accent right, Yeah, exactly, and so and more like a

0:27:43.280 --> 0:27:47.800
<v Speaker 3>big glasses gone with. Savannah identifies as non binary now

0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:50.879
<v Speaker 3>but at the time was using she her pronouns. But

0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:52.719
<v Speaker 3>I'm just going to go with they for all this.

0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:56.200
<v Speaker 3>It's you know, it's important to be conscientious about pronouns.

0:27:57.119 --> 0:27:59.600
<v Speaker 3>I didn't get that right away, Like I didn't understand it.

0:27:59.640 --> 0:28:02.159
<v Speaker 3>And it's it's not like I wanted to like misgender anyone.

0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:04.159
<v Speaker 3>I just didn't get why it mattered, because like I

0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:06.560
<v Speaker 3>don't care if you call me her or him whatever,

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 3>what do I care? But for like those to whom

0:28:09.520 --> 0:28:11.960
<v Speaker 3>it does mean a lot. You know, it's a really

0:28:12.000 --> 0:28:15.200
<v Speaker 3>small effort on my part for like a big acknowledgment

0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:16.240
<v Speaker 3>and show of respect.

0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Totally.

0:28:17.720 --> 0:28:19.199
<v Speaker 3>It's kind of like, you know, when there was just

0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:23.080
<v Speaker 3>miss and missus and like women decided to use miss

0:28:23.640 --> 0:28:25.879
<v Speaker 3>yeah and a lot of people were upset and they

0:28:25.880 --> 0:28:28.960
<v Speaker 3>didn't know why when Yeah, exactly, and now it's the default,

0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:29.960
<v Speaker 3>which is amazing.

0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:34.159
<v Speaker 2>So also it reminds me of Okay, I have friends,

0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:36.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, we all have friends who get married and

0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:38.080
<v Speaker 2>then when they get married, they take on a new name.

0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:39.680
<v Speaker 2>But if I know them by their old name and

0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:42.040
<v Speaker 2>say their old last name was one of the nicknames

0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:44.160
<v Speaker 2>I used, it would be rude of me to continue

0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:46.880
<v Speaker 2>calling them by the nickname I prefer because that's how

0:28:47.000 --> 0:28:49.280
<v Speaker 2>I know them. When the person goes through transformation, you

0:28:49.280 --> 0:28:50.920
<v Speaker 2>got to like honor that if you care about them.

0:28:50.920 --> 0:28:52.280
<v Speaker 2>So I totally get that well, and.

0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:54.560
<v Speaker 3>If it matters to them, it matters to me exactly. Yeah.

0:28:54.600 --> 0:28:56.880
<v Speaker 3>So like, if you're the type to bristle at the

0:28:56.920 --> 0:28:59.880
<v Speaker 3>pronoun thing, ask yourself why it bothers you, Like, it's

0:28:59.880 --> 0:29:02.600
<v Speaker 3>just to kindness you show others. Always take the opportunity

0:29:02.680 --> 0:29:06.440
<v Speaker 3>to show a kindness. Thank you. So anyway, Savannah. In

0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:09.800
<v Speaker 3>two thousand and one, Laura turned to Savannah and asked

0:29:09.800 --> 0:29:12.760
<v Speaker 3>them to be JT in public. So Savannah fit the

0:29:12.760 --> 0:29:16.280
<v Speaker 3>bill because they were more androgynists looking and like super charming,

0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:17.520
<v Speaker 3>like crazy magnetic.

0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow.

0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:22.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Laura said, Savannah quote had this amazing spark of

0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:26.120
<v Speaker 3>star quality. Savannah picked up the accent quickly, but quote

0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:30.040
<v Speaker 3>it took her a long time to commit to being JT. Well,

0:29:30.040 --> 0:29:32.880
<v Speaker 3>it was just difficult. It was like this weird transformation.

0:29:33.040 --> 0:29:35.160
<v Speaker 2>So also, it's a kind of horrendous background. You got

0:29:35.280 --> 0:29:36.720
<v Speaker 2>to talk about pain.

0:29:36.680 --> 0:29:39.520
<v Speaker 3>And sama and you have to be able to.

0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:42.080
<v Speaker 2>Getting excited about hearing these stories.

0:29:42.280 --> 0:29:45.560
<v Speaker 3>Right, bad blonde wig and you know how I love

0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:49.239
<v Speaker 3>a bad wigea we both do go cat sunglasses. They

0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:52.600
<v Speaker 3>also bound their chest to kind of pass for mail.

0:29:53.240 --> 0:29:55.640
<v Speaker 3>They were able to nail the southern accent, but they

0:29:55.680 --> 0:29:57.720
<v Speaker 3>got by most of the time by just not saying

0:29:57.720 --> 0:29:58.360
<v Speaker 3>anything at all.

0:29:58.480 --> 0:29:58.960
<v Speaker 2>That's smart.

0:29:59.040 --> 0:30:01.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and enforced that shy persona.

0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:30:02.400 --> 0:30:05.200
<v Speaker 3>So but here's the thing, like Savannah didn't have any

0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:06.760
<v Speaker 3>lesions on their skin.

0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:10.320
<v Speaker 2>But like my question, you assume as success comes, maybe

0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:15.640
<v Speaker 2>they could do some dermatological work or whatever. Yeah, there's

0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:17.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of us who were dumb would think, well,

0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:21.200
<v Speaker 2>of course they no longer have that. They're famous now totally.

0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:23.920
<v Speaker 3>So back to that October two thousand and five New

0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:26.040
<v Speaker 3>York magazine piece, who is the real JT?

0:30:26.400 --> 0:30:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Who is the real JT.

0:30:27.800 --> 0:30:30.680
<v Speaker 3>It talked about the questions and all the discrepancies around

0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:34.440
<v Speaker 3>JT's physical appearance. There was nothing definitive in it, but

0:30:34.480 --> 0:30:38.120
<v Speaker 3>it did point out, quote, every trail I followed led

0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:41.520
<v Speaker 3>me to Laura, so it's all coming back. So people

0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:48.400
<v Speaker 3>who interacted with JT regularly noticed that his phone presence charming, thoughtful, seductive,

0:30:49.200 --> 0:30:53.680
<v Speaker 3>was nothing like how he was in person in person, quiet, shy,

0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:56.240
<v Speaker 3>kind of like over the whole meeting people that he

0:30:56.280 --> 0:30:59.000
<v Speaker 3>had talked to and written to for years.

0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:01.680
<v Speaker 2>So it's not even like, yeah, it's the people who

0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:02.840
<v Speaker 2>they've been charming with on.

0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:05.400
<v Speaker 3>The follow him in person. It doesn't make sense.

0:31:05.520 --> 0:31:06.960
<v Speaker 2>They don't hold that vibe at all.

0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:07.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly.

0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:10.560
<v Speaker 2>That would be really off putting. You immediately think lie

0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:12.200
<v Speaker 2>or like crazy drug habits.

0:31:12.520 --> 0:31:16.440
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, totally So in that Heidi Benson SFGate piece,

0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:20.120
<v Speaker 3>she writes quote. The expose originally written for the San

0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:23.440
<v Speaker 3>Francisco Bay Guardian, whose editors didn't think the story was

0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:26.640
<v Speaker 3>ready for publication, so Beachie's agent placed it with New

0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:30.360
<v Speaker 3>York inspired a flurry of follow up stories and created

0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:33.880
<v Speaker 3>chatter equal to that sparked by Laroy's celebrity relationships.

0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:34.400
<v Speaker 2>Damn.

0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:37.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So Beachie did speak with someone who was supposed

0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:39.960
<v Speaker 3>to be JT for the piece. He asked about all

0:31:40.040 --> 0:31:44.760
<v Speaker 3>the questions surrounding his identity quote. JT wouldn't confirm or

0:31:44.760 --> 0:31:47.400
<v Speaker 3>deny it, although as we spoke for more than an hour,

0:31:47.520 --> 0:31:49.360
<v Speaker 3>it felt to me that I was speaking to Laura,

0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:52.239
<v Speaker 3>and it felt like both of us knew that, and

0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:55.440
<v Speaker 3>that this was a novel and disturbing experience for us both.

0:31:56.240 --> 0:32:00.680
<v Speaker 3>He she spoke about metaphorical truth, about pure of intent

0:32:01.200 --> 0:32:04.440
<v Speaker 3>and a commitment to writing. He seemed to be both

0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:08.600
<v Speaker 3>justifying the performance and asking not to be exposed such

0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:11.560
<v Speaker 3>a strange like psychological whatever, and also the.

0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Idea that they can get people on board with them, yeah,

0:32:14.960 --> 0:32:16.080
<v Speaker 2>to protect them there.

0:32:15.960 --> 0:32:21.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly. Even without hard proof, the article was a bombshell.

0:32:21.760 --> 0:32:26.080
<v Speaker 3>Laura and Savannah went into damage control mode. They assured

0:32:26.160 --> 0:32:29.200
<v Speaker 3>all of the celebrity pals that JT did in fact exist,

0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:33.200
<v Speaker 3>and that Stephen Beachey just jealous, just a jealous.

0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Fellow that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:39.680
<v Speaker 3>No, the smell was in the air and the New

0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:43.680
<v Speaker 3>York Times entered The New York Times. Oh yeah, according

0:32:43.680 --> 0:32:46.880
<v Speaker 3>to that sf Gate article quote. Soon after the article ran,

0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:49.640
<v Speaker 3>they killed a story Leroy had written for its November

0:32:49.680 --> 0:32:53.200
<v Speaker 3>travel section. They asked him to show identification, and he refused.

0:32:53.600 --> 0:32:56.120
<v Speaker 3>They asked me for my passport, my Social Security card.

0:32:56.160 --> 0:32:58.840
<v Speaker 3>The roy told Women's Wear Daily they knew exactly what

0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:01.080
<v Speaker 3>they were getting when they delt with me. I've always

0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:02.400
<v Speaker 3>played with identity and gender.

0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:05.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I've always played with identity and gender.

0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:10.120
<v Speaker 3>So let's take a break. When we come back, we'll

0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:12.800
<v Speaker 3>get to the moment we've known as coming, the moment

0:33:12.840 --> 0:33:33.600
<v Speaker 3>we've all been waiting for the public exposure of the hopes.

0:33:37.040 --> 0:33:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Okay, dude, Yeah, what a girl.

0:33:40.280 --> 0:33:42.200
<v Speaker 3>Monday, Januesday Night.

0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Wednesday, Happy days.

0:33:46.080 --> 0:33:46.880
<v Speaker 3>Now it's gonna be my head.

0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:48.200
<v Speaker 2>You're welcome, thank you.

0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:51.840
<v Speaker 3>On Monday, January ninth, two thousand and six, The New

0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:54.200
<v Speaker 3>York Times published a piece by the writer Warren Saint

0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:58.480
<v Speaker 3>John the title the Unmasking of J. T. Leroy in

0:33:58.600 --> 0:33:59.840
<v Speaker 3>Public He is a she?

0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:04.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, like the whole attitude of unmasking and

0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:06.960
<v Speaker 2>ending on that, I mean, that's just so.

0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:10.080
<v Speaker 3>Saint John had been burned already, you can hear it

0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:14.640
<v Speaker 3>in he'd written a feature on j in The Times

0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:18.640
<v Speaker 3>two years prior in two thousand and four, exactly, he

0:34:18.719 --> 0:34:23.239
<v Speaker 3>interviewed JT on the phone and in person. So Saint

0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:25.920
<v Speaker 3>John was determined to get to the bottom of the story.

0:34:26.040 --> 0:34:27.759
<v Speaker 3>Now the Beachy article.

0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:30.200
<v Speaker 2>Is in primature to them, so they're really mad about

0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:31.480
<v Speaker 2>He's really mad about that.

0:34:31.560 --> 0:34:34.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So Saint John he uncovers a two thousand and

0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:38.480
<v Speaker 3>three photo of Savannah Canoop as Savannah at an opening

0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:41.520
<v Speaker 3>of a clothing store in San Francisco. So Saint John

0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:44.680
<v Speaker 3>then showed that photo to the other person in the picture,

0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:49.880
<v Speaker 3>JT's agent, his business manager, and Lily Bright, who was

0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:53.799
<v Speaker 3>a producer for the film directed by Ossi Argentine. They

0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:58.160
<v Speaker 3>all identified Savannah as JT. So like, so much for

0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:02.680
<v Speaker 3>those Argento paternity rumors, right, those were apparently started by Laura.

0:35:03.360 --> 0:35:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh I was wondering why along.

0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:10.400
<v Speaker 3>With exactly well, and also remember that piece about Disneyland Paris.

0:35:11.200 --> 0:35:13.960
<v Speaker 3>Saint John looked into the expense report for that trip,

0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:15.920
<v Speaker 3>since The New York Times had paid for everything. Oh,

0:35:16.960 --> 0:35:19.719
<v Speaker 3>it only listed air for for three people, not four.

0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and remember it.

0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:25.960
<v Speaker 3>Was supposed to be JT. Speedy, Speedy's husband and thor Yeah.

0:35:26.120 --> 0:35:29.520
<v Speaker 3>So he then got in touch with the staff at

0:35:29.520 --> 0:35:33.799
<v Speaker 3>Disneyland Paris and two Paris hotels where they stayed. They

0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:36.960
<v Speaker 3>recognized Laura and said only her husband and son were

0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:40.879
<v Speaker 3>traveling with her, so no one who resembled Savannah slash JT.

0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:44.560
<v Speaker 2>They talk about a woman scorned, but reporters scorned exactly.

0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:48.799
<v Speaker 3>So Saint John reaches out to JT's lawyer to ask

0:35:48.880 --> 0:35:52.239
<v Speaker 3>about JT's identity. The lawyer sent him a statement from

0:35:52.320 --> 0:35:56.640
<v Speaker 3>JT that said, quote, as a transgendered human subject to attacks,

0:35:56.719 --> 0:36:01.719
<v Speaker 3>I used stand ins to protect my identity. Yeah, like,

0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:03.680
<v Speaker 3>bridge too far, Laura.

0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Now you're you're really putting a lot of other people

0:36:06.880 --> 0:36:12.320
<v Speaker 2>exactly too a risk of being questioned and challenged. And really,

0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:13.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's really selfish.

0:36:13.960 --> 0:36:18.239
<v Speaker 3>It's really really selfish. So the article came out and

0:36:18.360 --> 0:36:22.759
<v Speaker 3>things were looking grim. Courtney Love, you know, she's gonna

0:36:22.760 --> 0:36:25.920
<v Speaker 3>be the voice of reason in this. Yeah, so she

0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:29.439
<v Speaker 3>she was now on the STAE. She told Laura ak

0:36:29.640 --> 0:36:32.880
<v Speaker 3>Speedy that she should go on to Oprah because quote,

0:36:33.040 --> 0:36:37.319
<v Speaker 3>America loves redemption and love. Courtney Love is like, I'll

0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:37.680
<v Speaker 3>go with you.

0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:40.799
<v Speaker 2>She's been through it. I can tell you redemption works

0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:41.799
<v Speaker 2>even for a girl like.

0:36:41.760 --> 0:36:46.240
<v Speaker 3>Me, exactly, Laura refused, so she said, quote, I wouldn't

0:36:46.280 --> 0:36:48.440
<v Speaker 3>play that game. I wouldn't get up there and say

0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:51.319
<v Speaker 3>I have sinned against culture, I have transgressed. I'm sorry.

0:36:51.360 --> 0:36:54.080
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to rehab. No, I wasn't a sinner. That

0:36:54.239 --> 0:36:56.240
<v Speaker 3>was my lifeline. JT kept me alive.

0:36:57.440 --> 0:37:00.279
<v Speaker 2>I see their point. I mean, honestly, I utill you

0:37:00.320 --> 0:37:03.120
<v Speaker 2>see their point. But for them, but then there's but

0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:04.920
<v Speaker 2>then they're moving that to the rest of the world

0:37:04.960 --> 0:37:06.400
<v Speaker 2>and insisting it's true there too.

0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:10.239
<v Speaker 3>That's exactly so. In February of two thousand and six,

0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.280
<v Speaker 3>Jeff confirmed the whole story to The New York Times.

0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Quote.

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:17.600
<v Speaker 3>In their interview, mister Kanoop outlined the origin and execution

0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:21.080
<v Speaker 3>of the scheme, which he said was motivated initially by

0:37:21.120 --> 0:37:24.680
<v Speaker 3>his and miss Albert's shared desire to have their artistic work,

0:37:25.040 --> 0:37:28.000
<v Speaker 3>his music and her writing acknowledged by a wider audience.

0:37:28.640 --> 0:37:29.920
<v Speaker 2>We did it to get some things.

0:37:30.360 --> 0:37:32.839
<v Speaker 3>Jeff also said that he ran the day to day

0:37:32.880 --> 0:37:35.799
<v Speaker 3>business for JT, and in a later interview, he said

0:37:35.800 --> 0:37:38.200
<v Speaker 3>that he had been quote like a vice president equivalent,

0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:41.919
<v Speaker 3>of course, who knows if he's telling the truth. He

0:37:42.000 --> 0:37:44.120
<v Speaker 3>was trying to get in on the reveal by shopping

0:37:44.120 --> 0:37:48.960
<v Speaker 3>books and appearances. God, yeah, everyone's just like Craven. Speaking

0:37:48.960 --> 0:37:53.960
<v Speaker 3>to Interview magazine, Yes, Laura gave some context around that time. Quote,

0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:56.520
<v Speaker 3>there was a perfect storm at the New York Times.

0:37:56.520 --> 0:37:59.600
<v Speaker 3>Then they just had the scandals with Jason Blair and

0:37:59.640 --> 0:38:02.759
<v Speaker 3>what of mass destruction in Judith Miller. And it was

0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:05.600
<v Speaker 3>right around the time of James Fry. You have to

0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:09.839
<v Speaker 3>contextualize it. Their credibility was already being questioned, and then

0:38:09.880 --> 0:38:12.440
<v Speaker 3>they had JT Right for the Times. And what did

0:38:12.480 --> 0:38:15.800
<v Speaker 3>I cover for them? Disneyland, Paris. You know what really

0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:17.799
<v Speaker 3>makes me sad was that my books had meant so

0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:20.239
<v Speaker 3>much to so many people, and now they were being

0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:22.839
<v Speaker 3>encouraged to think, Oh, she was lying, she's laughing at you.

0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:23.600
<v Speaker 3>You've been tricked.

0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:25.040
<v Speaker 2>That's what happened.

0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:28.719
<v Speaker 3>That's exactly what happened. You know who got tricked? Asia Argento,

0:38:28.880 --> 0:38:31.800
<v Speaker 3>Oh my damn straight. In twenty sixteen, she said, quote,

0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:34.680
<v Speaker 3>it's the most shocking thing that's happened to me in

0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:37.320
<v Speaker 3>my life. And believe me, I'm the Queen of shock.

0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:39.680
<v Speaker 3>Not even my father could come up with such an

0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:43.160
<v Speaker 3>intricate plot. It is something I cannot forgive. I couldn't

0:38:43.160 --> 0:38:45.759
<v Speaker 3>do movies as a director for ten years because I've

0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:48.400
<v Speaker 3>been fooled. I'm a fool. How could I not see it?

0:38:48.400 --> 0:38:50.719
<v Speaker 3>It made me feel worthless, to be honest, I didn't

0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:52.680
<v Speaker 3>have a lot of self esteem after that. It took

0:38:52.719 --> 0:38:54.920
<v Speaker 3>me a long time to rebuild it. I was lost,

0:38:55.239 --> 0:38:58.240
<v Speaker 3>so forgiveness. It's a beautiful thing of saints and martyrs,

0:38:58.320 --> 0:39:01.520
<v Speaker 3>but I can't let it go. I was manipulated. It's

0:39:01.520 --> 0:39:02.480
<v Speaker 3>time for me to say that.

0:39:03.160 --> 0:39:05.680
<v Speaker 2>Wow, now let me get at Anthony Bourdain and ruin

0:39:05.760 --> 0:39:09.880
<v Speaker 2>his life. Sorry, every time I hear I don't know

0:39:09.920 --> 0:39:13.640
<v Speaker 2>the truth of that. I honestly nobody does. From the outside.

0:39:13.800 --> 0:39:17.839
<v Speaker 2>I find it to be a dark influence that that

0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:20.279
<v Speaker 2>this queen of shock. I can see how she was

0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:23.279
<v Speaker 2>hurt and she needed to have people be around her,

0:39:23.320 --> 0:39:25.080
<v Speaker 2>and I can see how they could be sucked into

0:39:25.160 --> 0:39:27.359
<v Speaker 2>all of this. So there's a lot of a lot

0:39:27.360 --> 0:39:30.120
<v Speaker 2>of movie part of emotions and darkness swirling.

0:39:30.280 --> 0:39:34.640
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly, Well, it's an argento. The Guardian asked Savannah

0:39:34.680 --> 0:39:38.000
<v Speaker 3>if they felt bad about lying to Asia Argento quote.

0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:40.600
<v Speaker 3>I spent enough time with her at the end so

0:39:40.640 --> 0:39:43.399
<v Speaker 3>that basically I felt like we connected on so many

0:39:43.400 --> 0:39:45.719
<v Speaker 3>other things, and it was this whole thing. At some

0:39:45.800 --> 0:39:48.600
<v Speaker 3>point I told Azia that she could call me Savannah.

0:39:48.719 --> 0:39:51.640
<v Speaker 3>I don't know why. H yeah.

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:55.800
<v Speaker 2>So when they're hanging out in person, yeah a lot,

0:39:56.120 --> 0:40:00.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot, like how I don't understand. Okay, I just

0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:01.799
<v Speaker 2>don't know. I don't get it.

0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:07.000
<v Speaker 3>I mean so, JT's literary agent livid, absolutely livid.

0:40:07.640 --> 0:40:08.000
<v Speaker 2>They didn't.

0:40:08.239 --> 0:40:11.400
<v Speaker 3>No, he wanted an apology, so the story about JT

0:40:11.600 --> 0:40:14.759
<v Speaker 3>having aids to invoke sympathy was just too much for him.

0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:19.160
<v Speaker 3>Couldn't do it. Oh yeah, Laura wouldn't apologize. Instead, she

0:40:19.280 --> 0:40:21.919
<v Speaker 3>sent him an email saying that Richard Gear should play

0:40:22.000 --> 0:40:25.040
<v Speaker 3>him in the movie, and she signed it with love us.

0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:27.560
<v Speaker 2>All oh mom. Yeah.

0:40:27.640 --> 0:40:30.040
<v Speaker 3>She later said quote, I didn't deny the rumors, but

0:40:30.080 --> 0:40:33.440
<v Speaker 3>I never made any statement intended to further JT's popularity

0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:37.000
<v Speaker 3>by claiming he had aids, like just wading into that

0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:37.600
<v Speaker 3>water at all.

0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:39.840
<v Speaker 2>I have a cousin who's like this, and he's reminded,

0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:41.480
<v Speaker 2>like I'm getting the feelings I get when they used

0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:42.759
<v Speaker 2>to tell me. Look, I didn't say that. I mean,

0:40:42.760 --> 0:40:44.680
<v Speaker 2>if you believe that and I didn't correct it, that's

0:40:44.719 --> 0:40:47.840
<v Speaker 2>not my fault. Yeah, yeah, whoa you knew I thought that.

0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:51.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah. La Weekly asked the agent if he would

0:40:51.680 --> 0:40:56.040
<v Speaker 3>have represented Laura had she queried as Laura Albert. He said, quote,

0:40:56.680 --> 0:40:59.040
<v Speaker 3>it would have been no if it had been Laura Albert.

0:40:59.280 --> 0:41:01.799
<v Speaker 3>I find her on pleasant and you know, there's a

0:41:01.800 --> 0:41:04.840
<v Speaker 3>big difference between helping a young man and someone whose

0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:08.520
<v Speaker 3>careerism becomes bigger than the work itself. Look, I understand

0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:11.239
<v Speaker 3>if you're a kid and you've been shot upon, then

0:41:11.440 --> 0:41:14.200
<v Speaker 3>having the attention of celebrities is okay. This might be

0:41:14.239 --> 0:41:16.920
<v Speaker 3>your biggest redemption. Ooh, I talked to Madonna. But when

0:41:16.960 --> 0:41:19.000
<v Speaker 3>it's a forty year old adult, no.

0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:22.960
<v Speaker 2>You shit have the butter knife and get to work.

0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:25.960
<v Speaker 2>You know how the heart with a rusty spoon. That

0:41:26.120 --> 0:41:26.920
<v Speaker 2>was amazing.

0:41:28.080 --> 0:41:31.839
<v Speaker 3>The disgust was not universal. Shirley Manson of the band

0:41:31.880 --> 0:41:35.400
<v Speaker 3>Garbage wrote in the on the band's blog, which remember

0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:39.360
<v Speaker 3>Bland quote, I suppose you will have read all the

0:41:39.400 --> 0:41:42.640
<v Speaker 3>controversy about JT and the press, suffice to say that

0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:45.160
<v Speaker 3>the books remain a marvel, and whoever wrote them is

0:41:45.200 --> 0:41:47.400
<v Speaker 3>still a genius, whether they are a man, a woman,

0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:50.920
<v Speaker 3>or a wilderbeast. It's perfectly fair that people are confused

0:41:50.920 --> 0:41:53.040
<v Speaker 3>and up in arms about it. But if you've read

0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:55.520
<v Speaker 3>the books and understand them, why on earth would you

0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:57.520
<v Speaker 3>ever assume that the person who wrote them was your

0:41:57.520 --> 0:41:59.479
<v Speaker 3>regular nine to five cookie cutter Joe.

0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:02.520
<v Speaker 2>They make something, and she makes some good points about that. Yeah,

0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:06.439
<v Speaker 2>the old situation. But at the same time, like, I'm

0:42:06.440 --> 0:42:09.399
<v Speaker 2>a big believer that any writer can write the story

0:42:09.400 --> 0:42:11.920
<v Speaker 2>of any person, But it's how you choose to do

0:42:12.080 --> 0:42:14.520
<v Speaker 2>that that's really important. You can't then borrow their voice

0:42:14.560 --> 0:42:18.080
<v Speaker 2>and write as them write person exactly. It's right from

0:42:18.120 --> 0:42:21.719
<v Speaker 2>the standpoint of knowingly with the reader aware. I am

0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:24.720
<v Speaker 2>an outsider talking about something. I am somebody in parallel

0:42:24.800 --> 0:42:25.960
<v Speaker 2>talking about something he can't be.

0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:29.520
<v Speaker 3>I am that, you know, Yeah, exactly. Well, Gus van

0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:32.840
<v Speaker 3>Zandt said quote, I still kind of believe that he exists,

0:42:33.120 --> 0:42:35.320
<v Speaker 3>just not in the flesh. I think he exists in

0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:38.799
<v Speaker 3>Laura's head. Either it's something she obsessively works on as

0:42:38.800 --> 0:42:41.080
<v Speaker 3>a character or it's something she can't help but work on.

0:42:41.440 --> 0:42:44.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, it reminds me of Beyonce. Sasha Fierce. Yes, Sasha

0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Fierce real or not? When you see her on stage,

0:42:47.080 --> 0:42:49.480
<v Speaker 2>that's Sasha Fierce. Well, is that a real person.

0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:51.640
<v Speaker 3>What about Chris Gaines.

0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:54.120
<v Speaker 2>For Oh, you want to take it there, Garth Brooks,

0:42:54.200 --> 0:42:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Chris Gaines is that a.

0:42:55.719 --> 0:42:58.160
<v Speaker 3>Real personal person his experiences.

0:42:58.480 --> 0:43:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Chris Gaines is the real one, the character.

0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:05.479
<v Speaker 3>Yes, he is the avatary. Here's what comedian Margaret Schow

0:43:05.600 --> 0:43:12.320
<v Speaker 3>wrote on a which jolt of that quote. I love J. T. Leroy,

0:43:12.400 --> 0:43:15.880
<v Speaker 3>whether he is she, whether he she rolled John's or publishers,

0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:17.720
<v Speaker 3>whether the stories are true or make believe.

0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:19.280
<v Speaker 2>I love that same opinion.

0:43:19.360 --> 0:43:22.720
<v Speaker 3>Here's what Laura says, quote, I reject the word hoax.

0:43:23.280 --> 0:43:24.920
<v Speaker 3>To me, a hoax is something you do for an

0:43:24.960 --> 0:43:27.440
<v Speaker 3>opening weekend to get people into a movie. For me,

0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:30.400
<v Speaker 3>it wasn't like that. It was Jeremiah's true story as

0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:33.600
<v Speaker 3>told to me. The thing is, I realized that JT's

0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:36.120
<v Speaker 3>world was so complete it didn't need me. It was

0:43:36.200 --> 0:43:39.120
<v Speaker 3>self sustaining. There were holes in it, but the emotional

0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:41.439
<v Speaker 3>truth was so present that people stayed in that world.

0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:44.680
<v Speaker 3>I was able to move into myself. A magician throws

0:43:44.719 --> 0:43:46.840
<v Speaker 3>the light and hides an elephant in the dark. I

0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:48.160
<v Speaker 3>was able to throw the attention.

0:43:49.040 --> 0:43:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Simon Naj got in trouble with this when he was

0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:53.440
<v Speaker 2>using it for his comment. He told his story, but

0:43:53.520 --> 0:43:55.680
<v Speaker 2>then he changed it with his emotional truth to make

0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:58.840
<v Speaker 2>it more resonant than the actual facts would move. But

0:43:59.040 --> 0:44:01.759
<v Speaker 2>that's that it's a slippery slope because once you do that,

0:44:01.840 --> 0:44:03.600
<v Speaker 2>it called him to question all your other facts.

0:44:03.960 --> 0:44:06.919
<v Speaker 3>Well right, and here's what else she said quote many

0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:09.640
<v Speaker 3>people were inspired that someone so young could write what

0:44:09.719 --> 0:44:12.640
<v Speaker 3>I was writing. JT is fifteen years younger than me.

0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:15.000
<v Speaker 3>All I can say is I'm sorry if people are

0:44:15.040 --> 0:44:18.319
<v Speaker 3>disappointed or offended. If, knowing that I'm fifteen years older,

0:44:18.400 --> 0:44:21.439
<v Speaker 3>then Jeremy devalues the work, then I'm sorry they feel

0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:24.320
<v Speaker 3>that way. I'm totally aware it sounds wacky, but I

0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:26.279
<v Speaker 3>never really thought of it in terms of right or wrong,

0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:29.120
<v Speaker 3>truth or lie. It was more like two computer programs

0:44:29.200 --> 0:44:31.120
<v Speaker 3>running in my head. There was him and there was me.

0:44:31.680 --> 0:44:34.560
<v Speaker 2>I get that. I totally get what they're saying about

0:44:35.000 --> 0:44:38.560
<v Speaker 2>to their experience. But as I said earlier, that can

0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:40.320
<v Speaker 2>be true for you. But once you go and connect

0:44:40.360 --> 0:44:42.759
<v Speaker 2>to others, to readers in particular right now, it's a

0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:45.960
<v Speaker 2>different expectation for you. Yes, computer programs running in your

0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:47.319
<v Speaker 2>head whatever, I forget.

0:44:47.000 --> 0:44:48.520
<v Speaker 3>That, But when you go out, you know what else

0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:50.359
<v Speaker 3>it becomes fraud a lie.

0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:51.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a frau exactly.

0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:55.280
<v Speaker 3>By the time of the reveal, a production company, Antidote

0:44:55.320 --> 0:44:58.800
<v Speaker 3>International Films, had signed a contract to option the rights

0:44:58.840 --> 0:45:02.080
<v Speaker 3>to Sarah and Laura as JT got paid twenty four

0:45:02.120 --> 0:45:06.320
<v Speaker 3>thousand dollars. Antidote spent one hundred and ten thousand dollars

0:45:06.400 --> 0:45:10.280
<v Speaker 3>working on the film, so they sued Laura. They wanted

0:45:10.320 --> 0:45:12.879
<v Speaker 3>the money back. They said the contract was void because

0:45:12.920 --> 0:45:16.360
<v Speaker 3>it had been signed by JT, an imaginary person. So

0:45:16.600 --> 0:45:20.360
<v Speaker 3>Laura's lawyer said Antidote was really trying to get like

0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:23.360
<v Speaker 3>to back out of doing the movie. The contract was

0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:25.160
<v Speaker 3>for the book, but the script they ended up with

0:45:25.360 --> 0:45:28.279
<v Speaker 3>wasn't good. So with the reveal, the director wanted to

0:45:28.320 --> 0:45:30.839
<v Speaker 3>pivot and use Laura's story, but Laura refused to grant

0:45:30.880 --> 0:45:31.239
<v Speaker 3>the rights.

0:45:31.280 --> 0:45:32.759
<v Speaker 2>It would have been crazy if Laura had gone to

0:45:32.800 --> 0:45:35.239
<v Speaker 2>some like small local paper and put in the ad

0:45:35.320 --> 0:45:39.000
<v Speaker 2>for two weeks of doing business as JTY and would

0:45:39.000 --> 0:45:39.920
<v Speaker 2>have been fine totally.

0:45:40.440 --> 0:45:45.520
<v Speaker 3>So Laura lost the lawsuit because her you know, supposition

0:45:45.600 --> 0:45:48.719
<v Speaker 3>of this was not true. She was ordered to pay

0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:52.880
<v Speaker 3>Antidote one hundred and sixteen thousand, five hundred dollars to

0:45:53.000 --> 0:45:56.520
<v Speaker 3>cover the contract plus the damages you know, on top

0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:59.600
<v Speaker 3>of that, and then she had to do three hundred

0:45:59.640 --> 0:46:04.440
<v Speaker 3>thousand dollars in legal fees. Oh so there. In the

0:46:04.560 --> 0:46:07.880
<v Speaker 3>time since, there have been some films about J. T Leroy.

0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:12.000
<v Speaker 3>Twenty fourteen's documentary The Cult of jt Leroy. One of

0:46:12.040 --> 0:46:17.960
<v Speaker 3>the producers was Stephen Beachy, twenty sixteen documentary author The JT.

0:46:18.120 --> 0:46:21.520
<v Speaker 3>Leroy Story, which is told pretty much from Laura's point

0:46:21.520 --> 0:46:25.360
<v Speaker 3>of view. The twenty eighteen movie jt Leroy, based on

0:46:25.480 --> 0:46:28.920
<v Speaker 3>Savannah Canoops two thousand and eight book Girl Boy Girl,

0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:33.320
<v Speaker 3>stars Kristen Stewart as Savannah Slash JT and Laura Dern

0:46:33.560 --> 0:46:37.400
<v Speaker 3>as Laura Slash Speedy, and Laura wants everyone to forget

0:46:37.440 --> 0:46:37.840
<v Speaker 3>this happened.

0:46:37.880 --> 0:46:40.719
<v Speaker 2>How beout they do quote, I don't talk about.

0:46:40.520 --> 0:46:43.480
<v Speaker 3>My past because I think it will somehow give legitimacy

0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:45.800
<v Speaker 3>to what I've written. Anyone should be able to do

0:46:45.880 --> 0:46:48.759
<v Speaker 3>what I did. My background is irrelevant. I don't offer

0:46:48.840 --> 0:46:51.399
<v Speaker 3>my life's history as any kind of excuse. We should

0:46:51.400 --> 0:46:53.760
<v Speaker 3>all be able to assume different voices. That's the idea

0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:55.640
<v Speaker 3>of art, to be able to go to new worlds.

0:46:56.239 --> 0:46:59.360
<v Speaker 3>And Laura later said that JT was quote my respirator.

0:46:59.400 --> 0:47:01.120
<v Speaker 3>He was my chain aimal for air to me. If

0:47:01.160 --> 0:47:03.879
<v Speaker 3>you take my JT, my Jeremy, my other, I die.

0:47:04.600 --> 0:47:08.560
<v Speaker 3>And she compares JT to Tinkerbell, who exists if you believe,

0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:11.120
<v Speaker 3>and bugs Bunny, who does not exist but lives.

0:47:12.440 --> 0:47:15.680
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so those are both hand drawn like they don't

0:47:15.880 --> 0:47:16.399
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean?

0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:20.080
<v Speaker 3>What'sous now?

0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:22.080
<v Speaker 2>I was. I was in San Francisco at this time,

0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:23.360
<v Speaker 2>and I met a lot of people who use a

0:47:23.360 --> 0:47:26.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of arguments like this, and I had a even

0:47:26.600 --> 0:47:29.000
<v Speaker 2>just as a graffiti artist, you get to known as

0:47:29.080 --> 0:47:31.279
<v Speaker 2>your tag, right, and then you imbue it with this

0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:33.680
<v Speaker 2>thing and it becomes this thing that's larger than you,

0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:35.160
<v Speaker 2>and people know it and they talk about it, and

0:47:35.320 --> 0:47:37.040
<v Speaker 2>can you can hear people talking about this person that

0:47:37.200 --> 0:47:39.560
<v Speaker 2>is you but it's not you. So I get it

0:47:39.800 --> 0:47:43.400
<v Speaker 2>on a ground level. But even then, even as somebody

0:47:43.400 --> 0:47:47.040
<v Speaker 2>who's doing crimes with an imaginary character as my avatar

0:47:47.120 --> 0:47:50.239
<v Speaker 2>if you will, you still wanted people to know it

0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:52.759
<v Speaker 2>was you. I mean, there was there was one great

0:47:52.840 --> 0:47:55.680
<v Speaker 2>graffiti artist enemy and she nobody knew who she was,

0:47:55.760 --> 0:47:58.239
<v Speaker 2>and we were so practically figured it out right, and

0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:00.480
<v Speaker 2>then we figured out. She was this art student. We

0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:02.600
<v Speaker 2>were riding the buses. We kept seeing this girl. We're like,

0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:03.840
<v Speaker 2>so one day we went up the end, We're like,

0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:06.160
<v Speaker 2>are you enemy? And she's like, you know, I don't

0:48:06.160 --> 0:48:08.160
<v Speaker 2>tell anyone. And we figured out I know her real name,

0:48:08.239 --> 0:48:10.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, because she was like turned out. We know anyway,

0:48:10.120 --> 0:48:12.400
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter. But the pole point is her identity

0:48:12.480 --> 0:48:14.480
<v Speaker 2>was something we wanted to protect. So I understand how

0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:17.200
<v Speaker 2>she thought people could turn to her and protect her, right, dady,

0:48:17.239 --> 0:48:18.960
<v Speaker 2>we kept her secret. She asked us, we don't tell

0:48:18.960 --> 0:48:20.800
<v Speaker 2>anybody that it's me, and we're like, of course, and

0:48:20.880 --> 0:48:24.680
<v Speaker 2>we did because you want to. So this person, Laura,

0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:28.480
<v Speaker 2>was playing with real human desires to have community and

0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:30.399
<v Speaker 2>to look out for people and to identify with another

0:48:30.440 --> 0:48:32.719
<v Speaker 2>as an outsider, and they was taking all that and

0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:35.400
<v Speaker 2>only using it for themselves. They were not then engaging

0:48:35.440 --> 0:48:37.320
<v Speaker 2>as we were in the back and forth of the community.

0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:39.399
<v Speaker 2>When you're an outsider, you have to rely on mutual aid,

0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:41.920
<v Speaker 2>you have to rely on honest relationships. You can't have

0:48:42.040 --> 0:48:44.520
<v Speaker 2>it be that this person is conning you, because then

0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:47.239
<v Speaker 2>they're just one more you know, crappy criminal, you know.

0:48:47.320 --> 0:48:49.600
<v Speaker 2>And she was basically doing that to everybody because they

0:48:49.680 --> 0:48:51.920
<v Speaker 2>had been hurt this was okay, or because they're an outsider.

0:48:52.040 --> 0:48:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Because you're an outsider, it's actually less okay.

0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:57.160
<v Speaker 3>Well, in the audacity to try and like step into

0:48:57.200 --> 0:49:00.040
<v Speaker 3>the shoes of someone in a marginalized community totally and

0:49:00.360 --> 0:49:04.319
<v Speaker 3>putting all these disgusting you know, it's so you can't

0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:07.040
<v Speaker 3>like support the people who need to tell their story.

0:49:07.120 --> 0:49:11.000
<v Speaker 3>Here's the thing too, She's obviously a great writer, sure so,

0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:13.640
<v Speaker 3>And I can understand this notion of you publish and

0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:16.280
<v Speaker 3>then if you find out this this woman in her thirties,

0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:18.759
<v Speaker 3>no one's going to listen. But write it as you

0:49:18.960 --> 0:49:22.239
<v Speaker 3>write these characters and demonstrate it. And if you feel

0:49:22.280 --> 0:49:25.520
<v Speaker 3>like you have to get in, you know, to slip

0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:28.799
<v Speaker 3>in to get published, use initials in your last name

0:49:28.840 --> 0:49:31.160
<v Speaker 3>if you feel like. But otherwise, let the writing stand

0:49:31.239 --> 0:49:34.560
<v Speaker 3>for itself, you know. And it's like, but taking on

0:49:34.680 --> 0:49:38.920
<v Speaker 3>this other persona is just so selfish and so weak, and.

0:49:39.080 --> 0:49:41.080
<v Speaker 2>It's a con I mean, it's it's you're just stop

0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:43.400
<v Speaker 2>respecting the very people you're saying you're doing this for.

0:49:43.840 --> 0:49:47.160
<v Speaker 3>People write under a novel, yes, but to then take

0:49:47.200 --> 0:49:49.520
<v Speaker 3>it to the like this personal level with a ton

0:49:49.640 --> 0:49:50.520
<v Speaker 3>of people and.

0:49:50.600 --> 0:49:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Doing all the work to push the lie that you know,

0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:55.680
<v Speaker 2>as a lie. It's not just like there's this figure

0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:58.320
<v Speaker 2>like we're not talking about like as you put a

0:49:58.400 --> 0:50:01.120
<v Speaker 2>non diplume or some kind of like, oh, I can't

0:50:01.200 --> 0:50:03.240
<v Speaker 2>do this because in my real world I'm an accountant

0:50:03.280 --> 0:50:04.880
<v Speaker 2>and I can't let people know I'm writing about this.

0:50:05.000 --> 0:50:07.319
<v Speaker 2>That's a different type of self protection than what Yeah.

0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:09.640
<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean there are thirty year old women who

0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:13.360
<v Speaker 3>get stuff published out there that's really meaningful, so total

0:50:13.719 --> 0:50:17.759
<v Speaker 3>it's doable, I think too. You know, they she and

0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:21.120
<v Speaker 3>her husband enjoyed the trappings of this. I mean they

0:50:21.200 --> 0:50:23.000
<v Speaker 3>got a ton of designer clothes out of it and

0:50:23.000 --> 0:50:26.280
<v Speaker 3>all this sort of free stuff and just taking advantage.

0:50:26.320 --> 0:50:28.440
<v Speaker 3>I feel bad for the people who really felt invested

0:50:28.440 --> 0:50:30.080
<v Speaker 3>in this because they felt like there was a kindred

0:50:30.120 --> 0:50:33.480
<v Speaker 3>spirit who was speaking their story too. And it's like,

0:50:34.120 --> 0:50:37.680
<v Speaker 3>you know, make it a fictional life the story. Yeah, exactly.

0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:40.160
<v Speaker 3>So that's my ridiculous takeaway. Thank you for asking.

0:50:40.280 --> 0:50:42.640
<v Speaker 2>That was great. That was a good one. Dulous takeaway.

0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:44.960
<v Speaker 3>Thank you. As a dicey one, I gotta admit I

0:50:45.120 --> 0:50:47.440
<v Speaker 3>was this was a tightrope. I felt there was a

0:50:47.480 --> 0:50:50.080
<v Speaker 3>lot of knife work, but you know, thank you for

0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:52.560
<v Speaker 3>following along with me. You can find us online at

0:50:52.640 --> 0:50:56.400
<v Speaker 3>ridiculous crime dot com. We're on Twitter and Instagram as

0:50:56.480 --> 0:50:59.279
<v Speaker 3>Ridiculous Crime. You can email us at ridiculous Crime at

0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:01.640
<v Speaker 3>gmail dot com. You can also leave a talk back

0:51:01.760 --> 0:51:08.000
<v Speaker 3>on the iHeart app. Do we have one for today? Talk?

0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:20.279
<v Speaker 2>Oh? God, I love you, I thank you, babe? Ga?

0:51:23.480 --> 0:51:25.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh you wanted to talk back to you?

0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:42.720
<v Speaker 3>Okay, Uh, that's it. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth

0:51:42.760 --> 0:51:46.040
<v Speaker 3>Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced and edited by J. T. Kusten.

0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:49.359
<v Speaker 3>Research is by Marissa I only let Patti Smith read

0:51:49.440 --> 0:51:52.640
<v Speaker 3>my work in public Brown and Andrea I'll just be

0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:55.799
<v Speaker 3>here hiding under the table song Sharpened Tear. The theme

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<v Speaker 3>song is by Thomas Lee, Travis Dutton and their son Thor.

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<v Speaker 2>Host Ward is.

0:52:00.360 --> 0:52:04.000
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<v Speaker 2>Ridicous Crime Say It One More Timeous Cry.

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<v Speaker 1>Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more podcasts

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